Meta’s Race for Your Face + Google’s Hit A.I. Notebook + HatGPT
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I had a very weird thing happened to me a last weekend, which is that a netflix released a documentary that I was in. So this was subtly that I taped like two years ago, had basically no memory of. But I was with bill gates, and it's about A I I remember .

when you told me that you were going to to do this, and that seemed like I was exciting thing that was going to a documentary. They were reputed on networks.

yeah. And then all of a sudden I started getting texts from people I know with screen shots of their netflix, where my face was the first thing that they saw, what they logged into. Netty, like the big .

hero image on top of the thing.

isn't IT I fix? Because in the process of tapping this thing two years ago, I made like a joke, what I thought was a joke to the producers. But they were not like asking me, do you want hair and makeup? And I said, no, because you can just use A, I to make me hot. And a, they kept that in, and then they actually did make me hot using A I so there's like A A portion of the documentary where just cuts to a in the AI version of me, but I am hot and the lower third uh graphics as hot cavender. And that is what my friends and family members were greeted with when they open netflix.

You know, what this reminds me of in my point is I had a group of friends, and there was this other guy named casey who kind of came into the friend group, and they started calling him hot casey because he was super, super good looking. And I was kind of looking around like, guy, like, do we have to call this guy hot casey? And what one of my friend said to me was like, IT could be worse. They could be calling him, okay, looking casey.

that's true. I guess netflix could have a title that character of like marginally attractive Kevin.

barely possible Kevin rose.

Cv is attack holmness. At the new ork time I came for atom.

and this is hard. This week I go down to meta connect and I tell coming about all the news. Then writer and goober Steven Johnson stops by to talk about the companies hit notebook L, M, and how it's using A, I to turn P, D, S in the podcast. Finally has the hat time for a trip T.

Casey, yes.

you just got back to the studio from a trip to menlo park. Yeah to see some stuff that meta was releasing. I've come in in hot Kevin.

yeah, I hot footed IT right out of that keynote to get here to the studio to tell you about all the latest advancements in the dynamic world of artificial intelligence .

and augmented reality glasses. Okay, so set the scene a little bit. What is IT like down there?

What's vibe? The scene at meters campus? Truly chaos. And I think not in the way they anticipated. You know, we've bent IT many of these events. Typically when you arrive, you really only look in for two things, which is like a where does the right share drop you off and how do you get into the actual venue? And usually the way they do that is they have a person standing there, and then they also have metaphor, whatever reason, decided not to do this.

And so people are just water around, like the duck in, are you? My mother and IT took me quite a while to get into the venue when I finally found what I was looking for after, by the way, talking to several Better employees, who, when I asked where connect was that seemed to have idea that I was happening that day. I got a text from a frame who said that they're just been an accident in the parking lot because there's not little at a car. So let's just say I got up to a little bit of restart .

and I might invite two medical connect must have ve gotten lost in the mail, lost in the diverse. Yeah, they actually sent IT as a facebook message, but no one has checked those since twenty eighteen no. So I am not their favorite journalist.

I've been critical of the company. They don't invite me to stuff anymore, but you did get an invite. You hold your way down there to see what they had to show off. I did and um tell me what you saw.

What first we talk about that? Yes yeah. Well, so this is the the second time in the past month that i've seen zao berg speak and bull times he has worn a shirt and blizzard ed with a classical language slogan.

So he was at the acquired podcast a few weeks back and wear the shirt that said, in greek learning through suffering, which he had said was sort of a family model. And as we know, this is a person who is obsessed with the roman empire. That is just kind of something that was one about zokora for while.

So yes, he's very into conquest, loves conquest. His favor video game, a civilization like this man loves a sort of scheme. So zuker berg walks out on stage on wednesday and he's wearing a shirt that says, out, suck out the hill and what this apparently means that because I don't speak like, do you speak like I speak big that the same, but it's not a big later didn't say OK berz.

Out where to coming in heart. We are coming in heart. okay? This can apparently be translated a few ways. IT is based on a model which was out scissor, out nihill, which was typically translated as like either seizure or or nothing or all or nothing. But the basic idea seems to be either one that he sort of putting IT on the line, sort of win at all cost or sort of less generously. It's like me or nothing, which is, let just say, a crazy thing to put on A T shirt.

Yeah, it's well, IT makes me think that one of his other motive is since he's gotten rid of his jua haircut, he needs to serve, keep some connection to scissor and his legacy if I were him.

I would just make a nice season talent. But I guess that was in part of his journey. So he comes out in the shirt, and I thought that the slogan actually wanted be really APP in this regard.

He spoke for around forty minutes, and during that time he brought out two like creator types, basically, like one was an A A mai fighter and one was A A sort of more standard creator like makes cool fun videos um but that was that he did not bring out anyone else from his team you know he did not toss to any of the other people who work at the company on any of this stuff. He himself walked all of the announcements in a way that really, I feel like was trying to sell a message. I this company and I am the Willy vanka of Better.

He told you, forget IT yeah, it's ck or nothing yeah which I felt was like really aggressive and weird and defensive, right? It's like IT would be. Where are of ten cooked in the entire apple presentation?

yes. yeah. yeah. okay. Aside from the sort of semi oxx of mark oker g appearing in this a the season omahas t shirt and not letting anyone else under the stage with him, what else did he actually know? What were the products in the these of updates .

that they release or do this in an ascending order of importance of work OK. So first of all, the it's like they always say, start with the most boring stuff or okay. So I tried the vision, which is something that you should do if you're wording your headset because you're being like to.

So the first thing they introduced, ed, is the meta quest three s this is an entry level headset and sells for three hundred box. And until this week met as original quest 3 was selling for six hundred and fifty dollars。 So this is sort of a big step down. They want to get more people in the VR will see if that worse. They also put out a software update for their raban, met a smart glasses um and they're able to do things like you can set a reminder or you can scan A Q R code and later this year, they say you're r going to be able to do real time language translation so you could be speaking to me in pig latten and then I would be able to understand IT because I would sort of be getting a real time translation through the speakers in the the .

arms of the glasses at the own say interesting yeah yes so if you .

we're able to understand that you are probably living in the future and because you have the new glasses update so there were those things and then there was just like a bunch of the A I stuff, including most interesting ly and I have to get take on this. They're going to start putting fake AI slop into the fees. Did you see this part? no.

okay. So now they say it's just a test. But as you browse to the facebook feed and the instagram feed in the coming months, you're gona see stuff that is based on your interest or has your lightness. So if you live in chicago and you've posted content about basketball, you might see a picture of yourself in a chicago bulls jersey, and then you can swipe on IT and you can see sort of additional like u plus chicago bulls related content. And I dying to know what you think about that so well.

sorry, are these ads for like chicago males merchandise are just organic posts appearing in the feed, starting you the user in something related to something that you've posted about or click on the exactly, exactly. So they're looking .

about what you're we are posting about or the sort of things that you typically view. And they're saying, can we make synthetic stuff out of that and show IT to you? And will that be more engaging to you than hearing from your actual .

family and friends? Oh my god. I mean, this is the creepiest thing that I can imagine them doing. And like people already believe irony ously that facebook is listening to them through their phone and like taiLoring targeted ads to them based on like conversations we've had in their house with this. I mean, imagine you are you are talking about fishing with your friend um and you know all of a sudden because you've clicked down some fishing stuff, you're just scrolling through your instagram ed and you see a picture of yourself in a fishing outfit going fishing like you are going to throw your your phone into the nearest body of water and you're never going to log on again.

I mean, again. So I talked this afternoon with a Chris cox as a sort of high ranking product executive at the company and he said basically like casey, like do not overstate this. We're going to be very gentle about the way that we are rolling this out.

And yet at the same time, Kevin, a year ago, I wrote a post called the synthetic social network is coming. And IT was based on this idea that eventually they were gonna alias. They could probably show you something more engaging that they just made up than something from your actual family and friends. And well, i'm sure there will always be a mix of those two things in anything that they make. We are arriving in this world where the APP on your phone is just going to be showing you made up a eye stuff.

Yes, I think this is a really good point because IT Marks A A really big departure for meta. This company has historical been about connecting you to people that you know in the real world, whether it's your college classmates or people you work with, like real friends and real family, has always been the kind of a life blood of these services. And I think what we've seen over the past few years is that they're just not aiming for that at all.

I mean, now i'm assuming some huge part of the usage of instagram is just real. It's you content from people you don't know, from influences from, you know, people outside your network who are posting stuff IT seems like they have basically given up on the task of a building a social network around your real friends and family. Maybe you're real friends and family don't post that much anymore. And so instead all they have left to show you is kind of disconnected social content from influencers and people who you don't know but might make interesting things. And this kind of AI generated slop yeah and you know.

i'm sure people going to have different experiences based on when they started using these products. But for you and I who started using facebook in particular in earth, beginning this world where we increasingly see nothing that friends and family are sharing, because there is mostly not doing that anymore, and we're seeing sort of A I generated images and videos. I think facebook is gonna start to feel like an abandoned amusement park.

You know where it's like a little but creepy, you know, you feel like they're about to put a spirit halloween banner at the front of IT like IT. There's just something that feel so strange about this moment. And while I take Chris cox at this word that they are going to be careful about the way that they do, they're telling us where they're going.

And I have no reason to believe that they're not going to push very hard in that direction because for the longest time, the biggest problem that social networks have is that they just kind die, by default, the noble fun, for a while, and then people just going to get tired of them and they move on. And facebook did an incredible job of keep ing. People entertain them for a very long time.

But if that is starting to weigh in, particularly in the united states, what Better solution than to say, you know what, IT doesn't matter that your friends and family are posting anymore, because we could just make up infinite content to show you. Facebook, instagram become absolute, just about whatever will keep you looking at them. What else did they show up? yeah.

So this gets to the last big thing that they showed up, and this really was the star of the show, and it's called ryan now, uh, last week, snap showed off their version of this, their latest spectacle. Les, these are augmented reality classes. And the basic idea is that inside a pair of glass that you wear on your heads, there are these miniature projectiles called wave guides that will project images in front of you that look like a computer Operating system.

And you can then interact without Operating system using your voice or using hand gestures. So you might use IT to watch a video or play a game or make a video call. So I saw a step version of the last week, this week medical forward and said, here's what we've been working on. And as far as I can tell that IT is much further logger snaps.

And when I saw snaps version, I almost couldn't believe how ugly IT was IT like the sunglasses that they give you after you go to the eye, doctor, or it's like the blocky plastic sort of goggle. Yes, that's what snaps goggles looked like from the outside. I haven't tried them on yet, so I don't know what they look like when you put them on, but did net as version of this. Their orion glasses are actually look Better.

They are chunky and fucker like the stab lasses are. I'll sort of leave IT to the lister to decide which pair they think looks Better, but IT seems like the technical capability and these glasses is stronger at least. And talking to some of the people who have used them and reading some of the cover today, i'm hoping to get soon.

But for example, the field of view, which is essentially the area in your vision that can display the the Operating system or any sort of digital elements that you might be interacting with, the snap glasses have a field of view that is forty six degrees. And this to me, was the worst thing about these glass asses, Kevin, because every time I moved my head, the interface would disappear. IT was like I was playing pick boo with an Operating system, right? The meta field of view is seventy degrees, and so most of the objects that you will be interacting with just sort of stay in the frame for a long time.

Now like what I am envisioning, something like the apple vision pro, which does allow you to do things like pull up your desktop in your surf headset or play a video or something like that. So how are these different from something like the apple vision pro?

So those technologies are similar in some ways, right? They are trying to get to the same destination. But there is a belief within meta that glasses are much Better and more natural ultimate for factor for the next generation of computing. Then A V R headset would be. And the reason is that A V R headset is giant, its bulky.

It's distracting, right? You're sort of always aware that you are wearing IT in my personal experience, whatever, I put all those things on my head within a half an hour, so I wanted hear IT off and not put in on again for a very long time. Glasses are different. You're wearing glasses right now. My guesses you have not even thought about the fact that you're wearing glass for the past half hour.

Ah, I am watching a youtube video while i'm talking with you in my glasses. But these are very advanced.

How are? How dare you? So meta believes that the final destination here is glasses that are as good at everything that the vision pro does, but in a sort of pair of lenses that said easily on your face, are not bulky, do not make you notice. So that's that's where're trying to get.

Now, can people go out and buy these these glasses that met us showing off these orion augmented goggles? no.

So meta is made about a thousand units and says that they're going to be mostly using them internally, but they are going to make some units available to external partners is presumed ly up developers and other people who might want to try them out and see what they could do with them.

But you know, Kevin, if you wanted, know, why are they selling this directly to consumers? Alex, he has had some great reporting in the verge this week about how much I did initially want to put these things on sale. But among other considerations, they could not get the costs per unit below about ten thousand dollars.

Kevin, I know what you're saying. You're saying, casey, why are they so expensive? These glasses are not truly stand alone gasses, which I should say the snap classes are. This prototype has what they call a neural risk behind, which is a little loop that you put over your risk that helps the glasses to interpret your hand gestures so that you can enjoy the Operating system. And there is an external park that process is a lot of the computing because the hockey puck is sort of more two .

black and oh, the two puck.

you know, you're actually making a great point. And if I were I not in the puck, if you really play hockey with this thing.

you're going be sorry h so cost ten thousand dollars so please don't hit .

IT so OK so they're ort of offload.

Some of the because know one thing that apple has talked about is just how hard IT is to shrink down. Something like the apple vision pro smaller than IT is because IT requires a bunch of processors, IT requires a big battery. So apple actually made the battery packs of external. We have to Carry that around, and IT requires cooling in all this other stuff. So is this puck part of how meta is trying to shrink down the actual glasses by just giving you more things that you have to Carry along with the glasses?

yes. So you're exactly right. And it's again, it's fascinating how a device that is being positioned as something that will be more convenient for you and will be this incredible assistance and so much more effortless than wearing a giant heads set comes with a respond that presumably you've got to charge and a puck that you've got to a change, right?

It's you know, you you have two peripherals for the pair of glasses on your face. So i've just spent reflecting recently, Kevin, about how this story that we were discussing right now, the hunt to build great air glasses has been going on for more than a decade now in silicon valley. And this week we saw the state of the art.

And the state of the art is IT cost ten thousand dollars. You have to have a peripheral to control IT, and you have to do the computing on a separate device. okay? And that is after tens of billions of dollars that have been invested. And you just compare that to something like artificial intelligence, which we talk about so much on the show, and you look at the lips that they have made in the past two or three years. And I believe that has left us in a situation where what we've just been discussing, the hunting of these air glasses, is the hardest problem in consumer china logy.

I mean, to be fair, the building and training of large AI language models has also required tens of billions of dollars of investment and all of these GPU from the video. So in some sense, like there was no cheap and easy way to solve the problem of putting a high performance computer on your face, right?

That gets into well, know, why is IT that these things have developed at such a different rates?

And why is the case that these things have developed such different rates? I'm so glad you .

ask because A I is a pure software problem. The the hardware problem of A R is just much tRicky er because you're running up against the laws of physics and about unsolved problems in battery life and how do you dissipate heat and how do you shrink down micro processors and optical stacks and everything else. So IT is just a super hard problem.

And while every year IT seems like we get two or three percent of the way told the goal at the same time, again, the state of the art is something that you will not be able to buy in stores. And like, Frankly, would just not be all that good if you could. yeah.

So I understood when apple launched the apple vision pro why they were making products in this area. right?

They trick you in the spending. Almost thousand.

yes. Well, they no, there are hardware company, right, that that is where they make their their money. You know they know that smart phones are not going to be around forever. The iphone is not going to be the final evolution of personal computing. And they see, uh, these head mounted displays as kind of the successor to maybe something like the laptop.

What's less clear to me is why meta is investing tens of billions of dollars into developing this stuff for, right? There's obviously one story that we ve talked about before, which is they're very sick of building things on apple platforms. They don't like having to work within the constraints that IOS developers have to work on so they want to own the next harvard platform. But I guess I don't see IT as being a natural evolution of their social media APP product strategy. So can you give any sense of why they feel like this is so important for them that they are going to spend millions of .

dollars developing these glasses? Well, the the ultimate reason is that they believe that if if they don't, someone else will. And this is always ban socket broke approach to a building products rate.

Deeply paranoid and not in a sort of conspiratorial way, but just in a sort of very observant sense that when you look at the technology companies of the past fifty years, the companies that were biggest forty years ago, many of them are no longer around or are nowhere near as dominant as they want to work, right? So suck. Berg knows there's always wave that is about to hit you and potentially from behind.

And the best way to avoid that happening is that you go out and you invent the future yourself. You mentioned their feud with apple, and this is, it's deeply personal to him. He mentions that more and more in his public appearances.

And, you know, you saw the shirt, it's zc or nothing. And a zc or nothing world does not have room for apple in IT. And IT is a world where mark zuker himself controls all of the most important computing platforms. So, you know, to find out how things are going, we will just have to see what slogan appears on his next t shirt.

When we cut back, a version of the notebook was a much happy render.

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Okay, so we talk a lot about A I tools and products on the show, and I have one that i'm really excited to .

talk about today. Yeah, i'm excited .

about about the school. This is a new product called notebook L M. IT is a tool from google. And you can think of IT like a kind of personal research assistant. It's a piece of software that allows you to upload documents, PDF, word files, even audio files, websites, whatever you want into these things called no books, and then use gamine, google's AI model to basically chat with the documents to serve, have a conversation to ask questions, to create study guides or summaries. You can even use IT to create a podcast about the material .

you've uploaded yeah, any of this was a product that was announced at google. I, O, if they call the project tailwind back then. And from the moment I saw them talking about IT on stage, I thought I ve got to get my hands on this thing.

And what that is true, that you can use other tools to chat with documents that is not unique to notebook, they have really focused on making sure that you can cramb as much material as possible into their system so that you can have conversations with not only one very long documents, but many very long documents. And that has really been the the difference for them. But as you note, they recently came out with something that is maybe even more impressive.

Yet the A I audio overviews feature is really what has been lighting up the internet over the past week or so. Like I just be honest, we see a lot of AI products. We get a lot of early access and demos of things, and many times they show some potential.

But if you actually start digging in, they are not all that useful. They hallus or they are just not reliable enough to be useful for people like you and me. No book gala M M is, I would say, one of my favorite AI products that I have used this year because IT is not trying to do everything for everyone.

IT is a tool for research, for writing. IT is really, really capable at what he does. And the audio feature in particular is just pretty stunning.

So today, we're going to bring in one of the key people who helped conceive of and build no book. L. M.

A. Stephen Johnson Steven's path to working at google is pretty unusual. His main career, the thing that he's most known for, is a writer. He is written for many years for the new york k times in new york times magazine and other places.

He's the author of more than a dozen books, including his latest, the infernal machine, a true story of dynamic terror and the rise of the modern detective. And he's spent one of my favorite writers about tech in the future. And a few years ago, a google approached him and basically said, hey, want to help us make a tool for writers yeah and you know.

I got to know Stephen a little bit, uh, as they were launching nope. And we met and he told me all about is no taking process and how he wanted to use AI to sort of improve his writing. And we truly just became fast friends because we have the exact same view of this stuff, which is, give me the most technology to make that my job is easy, as IT possibly can be. And unlike me, he's now actually working inside this company, trying to make something that does.

does that? And why haven't you written thirteen books around me?

Well, you know, I busy. I'm going to get around .

to IT one of these days. Let's bring any student. Even Johnson, welcome hard fork guys, is great to be here, Steven. So even I remember reading a piece you wrote for the new york k times magazine back in April of twenty twenty two. IT was about six months before ChatGPT came out.

And you had this big great piece about how A I was starting to get really good at language through these new things called large language models. And you're sort of predictions about how that would have all kinds of profound effects on society. But I remember that piece so vividly because IT captured this feeling that I was having at the time, which casey now start, has started calling A I vertigo, basically this sort of head spinning sensation when things are just moving so quickly. But i'm curious, like, what got you as a writer interested in A I to the point that you decided to sort of build AI products at google.

I just have spent all of my careers writer always doubling with tools to help me do the writing with all the latest software like casing. I have this kind of share of session with no taking software, but I always saw the computer and software as a kind of companion and kind of brain serving partner like I was always pushing the technology to do that in my own work. And so the idea that I could just kind of say, hey, let's think out loud about this particular topic, and I would understand on some level and respond with coherent sentences, obviously, there are holus nations, and there are all the things that we know, our problems, which I also write about in a peace. But IT was clear that some new set of doors of possibility had just opened up for the first time, and I just got really interested in walking through the stores.

So how does google first approach you? And is the idea, hey, we want to make a tool for writers like you. Or was this something else?

Yeah, I was a little like that. Google had just fun up right around this time, a new division called google labs over an old google labs. This is kind of a new iteration of IT.

And there was a guy running at named clay before, who since left, and now josh woodward is running at. And clay and josh had this idea that google labs could be a space where you could do kind of product focused, experimenting with new emerging technologies. And they also have this idea that there would be cocreate, would be built into the kind of ethos of labs.

And so if you were making a music product, you would have a musician in the room like as you were building. And so IT wasn't just about, know we're going to go to do some user research with musicians, actually going to have somebody through the life of the product there. And so they were just kind of cooking up these ideas.

And they had both read my books over the years. I'd read that time, specially read my sub stack. And all that together caused them to think, wonder if Stephen could be the first kind of gini pig for this.

So know Stephen uni ve had a chance to chat before. And I truly aspire to be the note taker that you are. Because I have talked a big game on this podcast about how i'm trying to write down sort of every interesting, like a quote, idea that I come across and link those together.

And i've made some strides there, but that you showed me your system at one point. And IT is the real deal like you'd truly haven't keeping track of every idea that you've come across for seemingly quite sometime. What was the moment that you said, oh, like this intersex with A I in a way that maybe this notebook allam can realize in a product .

I want you to remember, given that every time you think that casey is such a super nerd with is no taking like there are even more there are .

people in the you are the alpha none of the the no taking .

community so um yeah I can take exactly what I was. I have been collecting quotations from books that i've that i've read initially by typing them up in the late nineties um and then once you know e books came out you could save quotes and things like that is an amazing program that I think you use called read wide so lets you organize all your quotes from if you read on the kindler or any other rebook.

And so I have something like eight thousand quotes from books to date back to the late nineties that I ve collected. And that is really the history of all the ideas that really shaped who I am, right? Like my mental model, the world is shaped by the other ideas that i've read from other people. And so no book now lets you have um up to twenty five million words in a single notebook.

Put that in terms of pages.

How many pages is that? What would that be? There would be like forty books yeah right?

Something in that idea, eight thousand quotes .

fit in in one of these .

twenty five. It's easily into one of the yes.

And what i'm soly adding to that new book is all the stuff that i've written to. So it's kind of everything i've read this important and and literally every word I published is eventually going to mean that one. No, but I.

Kevin, do that because they were poison the data set. I I think it's good to works for you.

The safety flags, yeah, going be terrible. So so when I was able to do that, which was really, I know about a year ago, for the first time, I can get all that stuff in there. I call that no book, my everything no book and then I could sit down and just be like i'm thinking about writing a piece about x or here's a paragraph in the piece that i've just written.

What am I missing? What am I forgetting, giving an overview of all the stuff that i've read that is related to this particular topic. And I would return particularly once we switched to geri gman. I was the big on a paratime shift here I get this like incredibly nuanced response that is constantly reminding me of things that I forgotten. And now as of like three months ago, we have inline citations in in all the comments from the model, and you can click on each location and that takes you directly to the original quote.

Yes, I love this feature i've been playing around with with no book. L. M. And IT is truly one of the best features about IT is that it'll show you something you're talking to IT about something you've read or something you've written. And IT just has that little sort of like cat you click on, and that takes you right to the source material. So you can see for yourself, like this actually is an accurate representation of what was in the P.

D, F. I uploaded. And you, what an incredibly interesting, like a learning mode that is, right? Like up until now, if you wanted to have the conversation with the material in a book, like you had to find the author or you had to find a tutor and an expert who knew the material really well. And those people are in scare supply. But now you can actually like load in the book and navigated through conversation and dialogue, which is A A form that people really obviously like to use.

So that that is amazing and I think will probably be the primary way that people. But because of the fact that you have taken these notes for thirty years, you're able to use this in a different way, which is essentially like, take me through my own in electoral history and let me talk to the entire like course of learning that i've had over three decades. Remind me of things right or make new connections for me and that feels like a the kind of augmentation that I truly have always want A A I to give us right? Like that is the good stuff right?

I'm glad you say that that means a lot coming for you. Um I think I think there was an early tension in creating a poem which was the question of like how Normal am I know we have this amazing colleague, a Martin who is the product manager who's been incredible was on on IT from the beginning.

And I think like, you know, SHE SHE was going to like this has to work for people who don't collect eight thousand quotations over thirty years of their lives, right, if he does not work. And so but I think what of things we've learned is you actually, you know particularly in the digital, like you have you know you can import docks and slides. And so if you're a google drive, sir, the history of all the dogs you have in there is actually a history of the last four, five years of things that you have been interested in and you have been working on whatever your job is.

And so one thing I often tell people with the company is first thing to do is created a book. If you are a drive user, grab the last twenty dogs in there and just don't anything about organism, just dump the men, even if there are three different projects. And then just starting having a conversation and the the sense of, oh, this I actually knows what i'm doing and understands what i've been working on and can peace together kind of, you know, insights from that is pretty, pretty mazing. And by the way, I should say, you know, when we do this, we're not training the that .

was one of my questions is like, I think a lot of people would say, okay, well, if I upload a copy of my book or some some documents that are personal to me, is google going to then be able to serve sea and train on the material?

What we are doing is not training the model that would take a long time to train a model in your data um and I actually wouldn't, for complicated reasons, work as well as the way that we're doing IT. We're just taking the information you have and putting IT in the models context. Winter, which is kind of like the short term memory of the model, is the easiest way to understand that.

And the beauty of that is, one, the model is much more accurate with information in its context. And so the fluctuation rates dropped down dramatically. You can do things like excitations that you wouldn't able to do otherwise.

Um but that also means that the second you close your session, that information goes away. And so there's no way for we're not learning from IT. We're not making the model smarter and the long run, and there's no way for that information to kind of leak out into other users. That has been A A, A, A fundamental principle of the product from the .

very beginning. Yeah, I hope you'll take this next thing now about to say the right way because I do mean that as a compliment. But no book L M strikes me as an extremely ungoodly le product, right? IT is probably not the kind of thing that's gona get a billions users, which is how google has decided what to build. IT didn't have like a big splashy launch with ads running on the olympics. It's not props are promoted on a bunch of other google products as far as I can tell and has a discord server uh and and the design of the actual tool just feels different than a lot of what google has built in A I IT IT feels to me like that might be this of isolated kind of semi autonomous region within google that doesn't have that much contact with the rest of the company. Is that right?

Well, that's an interesting question. Um some of that is right and some of that is a reflection of what labs set out to do right, which is let's create a space where we can be more comfortable with being experimental and that enable us to do some things like um experiment with different types of interfaces that would not necessarily have the polish that you would expect from other google official products.

The discard is a great example that was want to rise Martin's ideas um you know we just wanted to like build a community around IT. And I remember rise, I coming to be saying you, I want to build a discord for this product. And I said, what is IT disco?

I had know if my kids .

were discharged rank well, but i'd never been on discard before. And i'm and they're all the time. And we have like forty five thousand people who are remembers of this community now. And and we just discovered so many things from them like it's like no book is taking off with them d nd. Players like dungeon's and dry and like dungeon masters because they have it's a very like literary jone of game, right?

And you have this long campaigns like rich.

yes, yeah it's same thing with like fantasy novels is and clifton novel s where they have a back story that's enormous and they can't keep track of IT all like if if George are our Martin would adopt our product like we would we have.

we would see the winds of winter.

Yes, maybe we can actually get a new I spent some time in the in the noble L. M. disco. It's a very fun place because you get to try to see how people are using good ideas. I also love that there's one person in there who's just constantly posting about how are using no book L M to analyze a huge database of sc, the hashtag .

function talking you been there .

for a while. It's really interesting. They they found a lot of use cases for sonic related to work.

and they gonna on the show next. K, Kevin, I wanted disagree with you about whether this is google or not, because I think this is like old school google, and this is the google I like, like, do you are back in the day when the googlers can just do anything they want in their twenty percent time? There is a day a week to be like, hack around on something right, do something interesting.

To me, this is the sort of thing that would come out of twenty percent time where it's like, let's find some of the, you know, the biggest, everyone in google is a nerd, but let let's find people who are nerdy about something really in particular that could be massively useful to maybe a narrow group of people. But maybe we find something in there that, who knows, does scale up to a billion people eventually. But maybe we should talk about the audio of.

yes, we have to talk about the audio feature because this is what really has put this a this tool on the map. For a lot of people, this is an amazing future. The first time I saw, I did have a moment of a iver ago, and I think I emailed you and was like, oh my god, what is this thing? How is this feature so good? How does that work? Uh, what does IT trained on? How do you learn how to do podcast banter? Just tell us about .

this feature another great labs um k study um IT was another team inside of labs that had basically developed uh a tool that would take any source material you wanted um and generate an audio conversation that would sounded like to engage entertaining people having a conversation you may be from with this um about the whatever material you gave IT. And the kind of two use cases that we were talking about in the early days was kind of source material that no one would ever build a real podcast for.

So arcane city council meetings that now when there's no economics and turning that into our guest or personalized learning where you're like you're not a totoro learn arn arn, you want to you know do a review of the weeks you know uh assignment and you'd rather digested in the form or you've like to augmented with the listening to a conversation because people will remember Better with conversations and they can do IT on the go. And so they had this incredible demo. And the thing about IT, like behind the scenes is that a lot of the breakthrough is actually the the edit cycle.

So behind the scenes, it's basically running through and stuff that we all do professionally all the time, which is IT generates an outline IT IT kind of advises that outline that generates a detailed version of the script and then IT has a kind of critical phase and um and then the modifies IT based on the critique. And so IT takes about four five minutes to generate and this because it's going through all these different passes. And you know you can call that like chain of thought reasoning or you know you can do. But when I thought I was, I to know that's an edict cle like that. You did a draft and then you revised IT, and then you got Better over time.

Are you taking notes? You could do this for your book. You go.

go even so. And and then at the end of IT, there's a stage where IT adds my favorite new word, which is diflucan ces. So IT takes a kind of steel script and turns ads. All the banter and the pauses .

and the like likes the follow words.

And that turns out to be crucial because you cannot listen to two robots talking to each other. No one IT would be just paint photo.

listen to, I don't know, the next three man pop was pretty popular and body, so I .

need to bring that up, follow up on that. So, so that was crucial. And then on top of that, all there is a new voice technology which adds and really an incredible layer, which is like figuring out without any coding in the script, figuring out that this is a point that they are trying to emphasize. And so they are speaking more slowly or they're trying to imply that they're hesitating a little bit. And so they raising their international a little bit, all that stuff IT does, and having two people talking to each other like that IT just IT is one of those moments when I first heard that I was like, this is incredible and we were already we were already we rolled out these notebook guides that take your all your documents and turn them into a brief in docker n FAQ or a time line which is incredibly useful for a writers um and so this was just like, oh, we can now do IT in another form like if maybe want to take your sources and listen to a conversation about them and so I just was a beautiful fit inside of no book alarm and so we just have been scrambling all summer to get this out and it's it's been .

really cool to see, really awesome. I made a podcast about my my new vacuum cleaner that I got by feeding at the users manual pedia. How pops this eight minute explanation of all the features of my new vacuum?

It's really cool. okay. So I am a confessional, which is I am obsessed with the stuff. Steven was very kind and and gave me early access to this. But at the time, I was getting ready for meat, connected some other things, and I just did not have the time and attention to focus on IT.

But then when I found that when you were coming on the show, I thought I am not going to listen to any of these until we're all in the room together. Oh, my god. And here's why, because I ve learned from youtube that the most popular thing that you can do on youtube is to hear something for the first time. So you know, I don't know if you ve seen this covered, but it's like if if you listen to metal a for the first time on youtube, you got a million views. And I really listen to tell in high school I had the next best thing, and listen to .

the no. Listen to a few examples of this audio feature. I ve been playing around this for a couple days now, having a lot of fun with IT. So a lot of times in our work as journalists, we have to sort of make sense of a bunch of different documents, whether they are legal filings or what. And so I was doing some research about amo and there are self driving cars and they're been a few studies that have come out recently about, uh, the safety data of these cars, of human drivers, of how how safe R V mos compared to human drivers.

And it's a hot top. We've got show, but it's a little .

hard to understand the data. A little man gold and and there papers are quite long. And so this morning I was going into the studio and I thought i'm just going to dup a whole bunch of these pdfs of these studies into a new book company and generate a podcast that I can listen to on the way to the office and maybe get a sort of high level overview of what this these studies have shown. So I want to play for you the the first thirty or so seconds of my way mo data podcast. All right.

ever see one of those way more cars just cruising around with like no one behind the wheel? Yeah I always wonder, is that thing safe? I mean, no offense to robots or anything handing over the keys to a machine. And IT just feels different.

yeah. IT really does make you .

think about like trusting technology with .

our lives and especially .

when it's something is important as like driving.

you know, totally. So that's what we're diving into today, the safety of those driverless way as we ve got a bunch of research lined up, including some really recent data to get past the headlines and figure out what's really going on.

So that's amazing. That's one clip. amazing. It's really cool. okay. And IT IT does actually continue on for like minutes after that and or breakdown the data in these papers quite well from what I can tell.

I also put in your a latest platformer news letter um into this and had to generate a podcast about that. So here's a clip on the platformer news letter A I podcast. Speaking of risks, newton s decision .

to leave sub stack that was a risk, but IT sounds like he's taking long term.

He is. He really is, and I think that's key. Building a sustainable media business in this dain age is not easy. IT takes more than just a great content. You need smart business decisions to.

It's anting act right? You get a date for your vision, but also make sure you can know, keep the lights on. And newton been very open about platform's finances, about the chAllenges that come with going .

independent transparency builds trust, and these days, trust is invaluable. And let's be real, leaving a platform like sub stack, even one with its problems. It's gonna come with some financial growing pains.

for sure. It's jumping off a Cliff and hoping you can build your wings on the way.

I like these people. The smart people know .

what the big fans of you. The last clip I wanted play, I was just sort of thinking, like, how exotic can I get here? Like, what can I make a podcast about using no book L M? So I uploaded my most recent credit card statement to no book L M.

And had to try to make an AI podcast about some of the things that i've been spending my money on. And so this is the the most recent a credit card statement that I got in podcast form. I of IT.

Okay, let's see. I'm noticing a pattern here, quite a few uber .

ride between August eight and september.

noh.

yeah. And that's something to consider, right? Especially if you live in an area with readily available public transportation by the routes. I can really add for .

sure they do. I mean, for example.

let's say an average uber ride costs you twenty dollars and you're taking four of those a week. Well, that's three hundred and twenty dollars a month. Think about IT that money that could be going to other things.

other financial goals. Small changes can make a big difference.

IT really told me .

to get my eyes on the bus. It's like a financial adviser.

your pocket truly. So this blue, my mind, what's you're reaction .

really is extraordinary. And know, I said, I knew we were going to do this today. I wanted to wait until this moment to hear IT. But in the meantime, I was seeing so many focus on social media. Thing you have to listen to, this like this is so usually good.

And, you know, my mind is already alive with a problem that I have been, which is because we do a part, as we often talk to the authors of books, and often we decide we want to talk to them, you know, a week before. And then I got got a PDF in my in box of seven days read. And it's incredibly efficient.

If I could listen to a podcast about IT, I would love IT. Now I realized how painful that's gonna to hear for every of exist. But you know, if that makes information more accessible.

I want to try IT. Yeah and and probably people will make podcast about a lot of the books that we talk about on the show, but no one is gonna a podcast about my credit card statement or the policies and my kids day care or something like that. So it's a really interesting way to to to transform. These are more, uh, esoteric documents.

I mean, what's I heard about your profit at uber spending? I do do a podcast about your well, I think actually .

that one was really interesting because one, its ability to figure out a way to rationalize a podcast is a maze. We would give you kind of internal nobo alarm documents. And they would be like, well, truly exciting. We've got in our hands on some internal document they want to go to is something that's a but but but you could hear there is an interesting thing. They are generally um instructed to be enthusiastic and engaged. So one thing people are doing is putting their cvs and resumes in there and they're like john smith, I mean, what an amazing I assistance vice president of the van that's impressive you but what happened there, apparently because you're uber writing is so excessive, was an interesting suggested mode, which is critique yeah right. So you can imagine a future version, which is like, I actually I want some top love here, like here's the thing i'm working on like talk me through like the problems I wanted hear that and that could be something .

that and it's amazing because I didn't give IT any prompt. Yes, I didn't say criticized my spending on uber and I just little .

just make up podcast out of my created is the PDF.

I pushed the button and I waited a couple minutes. I I listen to this podcast and I had pulled out some details and spending patterns from my credit cards. Just incredible.

Are we seeing the seeds of optimized?

Well, that was the second thing I in this, which is that they're instructed to in my mind, is kind of changing on this as users are experimenting with IT more but um they instructed to be fun and engaging. And I i've listened to dozens and dozens and hundreds of these, you, as I was in development over the summer, and they were always in engaging bankers and all that stuff. I never once heard them be funny, and everyone one's laughed.

And I thought about you since you have been think so many nice things about me. I thought about hard fork, which I laughed at out loud all the. And when I listen to you guys and IT occurred me like, oh, the one thing. Interestingly, the models, they're so good at so many things, so almost you super human in some of their abilities, but they can't yet be funny in this way so you know who knows obviously, being able to to push IT interactions and give IT some guidance is something we're .

getting a lot of request for. Um yeah yes imagine to sort of pick like do you want this to be a two person sort of hosted podcast? Or do you want me to be just one person? Do you want do you want someone to one of the host to be like super annoying and like always interacting? You could call that casey mode if you wanted to. That's a free idea.

We should do Kevin's credit cards statement but as a true crime cereal, you know.

So do you do any kind of moderation on what people are uploading into the book? Elam, could someone upload, you know, my and make an AI podcast about IT?

So there there's basic safety, low level safety that google has that will block really offensive things from happening. And basically what we've the the kind of the latest version of that um when there is politically charged content from either left or the right, the the hose are instructed to take a neutral kind of reporting tone and to basically say we are not taking sides in this. We're just reporting what is in these sources and we feel like that kind of the best way to do IT. And so there's there's kind of an extra instruction for them to make that clear if if IT seems like it's it's politically charged in some kind of, yeah.

I I did IT actually try making in a ipod d cast by my count. That wasn't hypothetical. You went, what happened? I did IT. But I was like, I was very judgmental at the topic. I was like, we're going to talk today about mp, a book about how hitler became such a monster, which I actually thought was good.

which is like, actually how we see history, by the way. Yes, you know, people do read my confident history classes, but someone telling them that he was .

totally so in google's press release about this feature, there was a brief mention of some other features that might be on the horizon for no book, L. M, including the ability to generate overviews podcasts in a language other than english, and the ability to actually take part in the conversation yourself to sort of interpret the host of this A I generator podcast. Maybe ask a follow question about something they just said. How far are way do you think those things are?

We're actively working on both of them. I would expect some versions of them to be in, in the next few months. We actually just just a week allowed you to input audio as a source too. So now you can go like this kind of classic comment in the student use case you go record your lecture, take handwriting notes um just of the most important things and then you go back to no book up of the audio lecture and then basically say, take my little high level summary and expanded IT based on the full text of the lecture, so I can really just write down the most important things and let the model fill in all the details based on the recording and then take that and turn that into a podcast so I can review IT at the gym like that sort .

of works like I I would be so good at college if I went to college. I mean, I truly think that I could be at the top of my class.

And by being good at college, you mean you would just be using A I .

to do all your work? I would be using A I to argument my natural human abilities. Kevin, something nice against you. try.

yeah. Well, that I mean, no. Seriously like we really see this as a tool for understanding things like you have word processors, help you credit document and photoshop helps you, you know, just pixel in an image. This is at all that helps you understand things like if you are trying in good faith to understand the material as a student or as a knowledge worker, as a writer, whatever IT is like, this is a tool that should really help you do that Better.

What's next for you personally? Are gonna stick around at google and built some more stuff. Are you learning for the solitary life writer again?

I am not yearning. I am really enjoying this. And there's so much to build and to be in the middle, know the most important technological change of my life, working with really interesting people on this thing that i've always wanted, like I would kind of be needed to stop now.

Yeah, also, the snacks are .

way Better at google.

even Johnson. Thanks so much for coming up.

thanks.

Going to come back time to pass the hat or play a game hat GPT.

this.

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All right, Kevin. Well, I have been so focused on meta connect this week that I have not been keeping up with the tech headlines as well as I should have. And that made me feel like this would be the perfect time to play game of hat GPT.

Now hatch pt, of course, is our game where we take headlines from the news. We riff on them a bit, and when one of us gets poured, we are generally shall gin. Okay, Kevin, this is a big one.

OpenAI. C, T, O, mirror mali just announced that she's leave in the company. So as we stepped into the booth today, we saw this come over the wires. Ma mali, of course, the chief technology officer of OpenAI, announce he was leaving after six and a half years.

SHE posted a note online that said, after much reflection, I had made the difficult decision to leave OpenAI, adding, there's never an ideal time to step away from a place one cherishes yet this moment feels right now, Kevin. I always feel like in corporations of the phrase, there's never an ideal time to step away. Translated into english means I know that i'm leaving a terrible time.

Do you feel that way? Got a met. I got fired. Well.

I am very confident. Mere body did not get fire.

Yeah, I don't think he got fired either, in part because she's not the only person who left this week. A few hours after mirror made her announcement, two other senior leaders at OpenAI also announced they were leaving. OpenAI chief research officer, bob mague, and a vice president of research, bear ATS off like mira they both serve gave vae explanations for why they were leaving, like wanting to explore the opportunities and take a break. So whatever is happening, IT seems like a .

very big deal. Look, IT is is, I mean, I have had people very close to the company inside OpenAI, who says, when sam out, man is out there being the AI diplomats to the entire world, traveling the globe, raising money for his chip projects and everything else. Mirror is the one who is overseeing the company's road map and and really handling all the data day Operations.

So you know, on one hand, this does feel pretty shocking, but on the other hand, I don't I think we can say that we are surprised. These are just the latest in a wave of people to leave. I would not be surprised if mirror started her own AI company. SHE says she's stepping away because, quote, I want to create the time and space to do exploration and whenever that exploration turns out to be, i'm sure, and rein horror, which will offer her hundred million dollars for IT yeah I mean.

it's just really remarkable how much this company has changed in the past year to um there was A A photo that sort of became semi iconic of the sort leadership of OpenAI I think sitting on a couch a together and IT was sam altman. Memorall I greg brock men and ellia sets cover that was for the highest ranking leadership of this company just a year ago. And now illius has cover, has left the company memorable, has left the company.

Greg brock man is out on an extended leave. So of that group before IT is just sam altman who is there. As of now, what do you think is happening here?

What's the real story? Well, you know, I was my boyfriend is reading a book about the history of silicon valley right now, and he just shared this passage with me about the rise of the semi conductor industry. And one of the the first big semiconductor manufacturer was fair child.

And IT was a very similar situation to open a eye. So many people left fairchild and started their own silicon companies that they were known as the fair children. And the companies that they created are the reason that we wound up calling the silicon valley. So if you view the rise of A I as kind of A A technical ic shift in the technology landscape, we might be seeing the same thing here, where open a eye really was one of the biggest incubators for this technology. And one by one, all of those cofounder said, you know what, I bet I could do IT a little bit Better, do a little more my way and make a little bit more money if I did IT somewhere else.

So you think this is about her wanting to do her own thing? I have some questions here. Obviously will wait to hear more about if any more reporting comes out about why mr. Mali has left the company.

But I also saw another story today about open the eye that made me think that I might be related, which is that they are reportedly working to transition to a traditional for profit company right now. As we know, OpenAI is governed by the board of a non profit, so this transition would basically do away with that. The non profit would be a separate entity and would only hold a minority stake in the serve conventional for profit company. So I just wonder if part of this is just this is not the kind of project that these people signed up for back when OpenAI e was found.

which IT gives them all more reason to leave and start their own thing, right? Like if those stories do wide up related, I feel very confident mere mali will be working on A I once again very soon.

And as we know, OpenAI has said that is no longer punish es whistle blowers by withholding their equity after they leave the company.

So the hard work is wide open.

We've got a spot for yeah next week.

all right, not generating.

This next story is a double back pedal up. And there are two stories on the slip. One of them is about elan musk x backing down in brazil after defining court orders in brazil for three weeks.

That way, when you say elon musk acts backing down in brazil, are you referred .

to crime x the company is known as twitter. Uh, after defying court orders in brazil for three weeks, uh, x has capitulate. In a court filing last friday, uh, excess lawyers said that the company had complied with orders from the brazilian supreme court in hopes that the court would lift a block on its sight.

That is a sharp reversal. IT spent weeks as insisting that I would not back down and then IT back down. okay? Store one number one, storm number two.

In the same vein is about telegram, another company that we've talked about on the show very recently, a telegram, c dervis, has APP to provide more data to governments. The story comes from bloomberg basically, after insisting that IT wouldn't do this, IT wouldn't give out data to governments in response to legal requests. Uh, povl der, the chief executive officer of telegrams, said the telegram will now provide users I P addresses and phone numbers. Two relevant authorities OK see, what do you think about these two stories? Well, you know.

first of all, I think they're related. Second of all, the telegram story has made me realize, zed, that power da and I have something in common, that what we both came to profound realizations while sitting in a french prison every time by the time was in a friends present. No, I don't a look for bread to to feel my family. I think I saw play. Yeah, I was a very good musical, yes, but look, here's the deal.

What I think what we've really learned here is that, uh, after a long period of countries trying to rain in tech platform s through passing laws and passing regulations, we're now moving in to a way to call the prison phase where where supreme courts and law enforcement officers are going out there and there are saying you are either going to listen to us and you're going to obey the sovereign of our country or we're going to throw your executives in jail or just going to ban the whole platform. So this is a real racing up. And for all of the big talk that povl do, rob and elon must have done over the past year, but how they, in a fight for free speech, when push came to show they were not really missed by the rest of their lives in jail.

all right up generating.

Kevin, meet the auto koto and a robotic brito bowmaker at these orange county chap locations. Now this door is very personal to me. Be, be.

And according to the last andal times, robots that fully flesh out avocados and build burrito balls are now making food for customers at two chipotle mexican grill restaurants in souther, california, as automation and artificial intelligence continue to enter the vast wood industry and raise fears about the supplementing of workers. And Kevin t, i'm told the autocad can cut core and peel, avoid to in twenty six seconds on average. How does that compare .

to your a technique? O I pretty fast with an of I will say I don't hate this because I recently learned that cutting avocados is the cause of many trips to the emergency. Is that right? Many, many is one of the leading reasons that people cut their hands in the kitchen because, you know, when people are cutting avocational, sometimes they hold put the vocational and half to hold a half, and then they're cut IT while wallets in their other hand. And many times my my friend who had injured themselves this way was saying, people will just cut through the skin of the avocado into their hand and have to go the are.

well, I am ask why there is that saying, make a moi, cut a little holy. And that's how you're most, most to remember to be careful. But what do you think about the automatic the automatic robot nature of what's happening to chip?

So obviously, I would be worried if I was a tripoli worker. But I think in some spiritual sense, like tripoli is already kind of this, like slowly that people just start to shovel into their mouth like their horses at a trophy. It's a conveyer belt for beans and rice yes.

So I don't mind this. I I will be interested to see if they can actually automate more parts of the tripoli process um because this is just one part of the assembly process. But I have to imagine that shape. And many other fast food chains are working on using robots for things like flipping burgers.

Here's here's my prediction. If you've ever vantage about let you know one thing and that is that block is extra right? You know this, you want to get clock oly on anything you're enough to pay up.

I think in the future, echo tly humans are gonna extra. You can either go to the other cardio and you can get a cheaper. But hey, you want that breeds made with you the love of a human being, going to you about another two box.

I'm not sure the breads are main with the love of a human being today, right? Okay, next up, oh, this ones a talker. This was all over my feet yesterday.

Marchez bromley says, I hear you after fans, critics. Ze, his new wallpaper. APP, so this is from the verge. Kc, you'll remember former hard forecast markets Brown A K M K B H D are the famous youtube tech reviewer. He launched a while paper APP called panels this week as part of his iphone sixteen review.

The p was criticized for its Price as description to this APP costs fifty dollars a year or twelve dollars a month and people were uh very skep portal that any APP for wallpaper for your iphone could be worth that much money. And the APP also asked to track user activity across other websites are and location data, uh, markets sort of that attracted a little bit. For example, he said they were going to fix the excessive data disclosures. So casey, what did you make of this?

This is a big deal. Very d IT. Made me really worried about the upcoming launch of the first official hardwoods product, which is a bag of rest nails.

You know, like looking at how this APP was received. I thought, Kevin, we're going to be in for IT. But you know, look, I really like mars.

I have a lot of respect for him. I think he's like built something really incredible over there. But you know, two, two things come to mind.

One is, when you are a critic and when you are a tough critic, anybody you criticize is gonna out there waiting for you with long knives. Now, I think markets arguably published the most critical review of his entire career this year. He, he trashed the humane A I pin, the rabbit or one A I gadget, and also an electric car. And he really sort of built up a reputation for himself as somebody who was really hard to other people's products.

So when you released your product, if IT is not absolutely polish and you're going to hear IT, the other thing I been thinking about is just this is actually an indictment of youtube, right? Because even though you know youtube does share a certain amount of revenue with creators, even the most popular creators there, none of them ever just are content with with the money they make their they feel like in order to be able to live their lives, they have to get into these brand deals. My friend, you like patel over the verge has at the end of the day, every youtube creator has to turn themselves into a miniature advertising agency yeah right. And so it's pushing .

people like markets and it's not like this in other media. Wolf, blizzard is not at their hacking ring ton. He doesn't have to because he makes enough money from his daily job. And i've gotta think that if if youtube was giving people like markets were among the most successful people on that platform, um you know enough add revenue to support whatever their plans and ambitions are, they wouldn't have to go to doing all .

these side project. Maybe some of them would do IT anyway. Certainly, i've sure some individual creators are just sort of greedy, and I don't want to totally let creators off the hook. You go out and produce sub power products. And I does see like this was a really sub power products to me.

The more interesting story about this is like what is the actual youtube economy? And the truth is it's pretty bad you talk to particularly anybody who's running more than a one percent Operation on youtube, how it's going. And pretty much the best thing that we'll tell you is that it's going about breaking even. But there are a lot of people losing money out there on youtube. And so when I see something like this, I just think that this is really .

kind of youtube story too. IT made me think about the other big as sort of youtube brand extension fiasco, which was the mr. Beast burger empire.

You know, I still have been digestion, was thinking about the beast burger.

right? I went. So mr. Beast, for those of you do remember this, he launched a line of burger restaurants that were basically sort of ghost kitchen that would all sort of make these burgers and put mr.

Be spending on them and send them out. And you know, many of them got very bad reviews. There was a very poor quality control on these burgers, and I ended up being a pretty big stain on mr.

Beast's reputation. You know, no one thought that he was cooking the burgers himself, but I think this really is the the flip side of the para social relationship. Is that a burger joke of that? That I didn't mean IT as one, but now do you mention IT?

I think that one thing that people really love about youtube are these parasitic relationships that fans get to have with their creators where they they trust them more than you would trust someone on the evening news telling you something because they seem authentic, maybe their filming in their bedroom or somewhere there's very personal, maybe they're sharing more intimate details from their life. You end up of feeling like, you know, this person, you trust them. And so when someone on youtube, or leads you a tray or recommends a product that maybe doesn't live up to your expectations, IT really makes you have question them as as a whole.

And I think that's what Marcus has stepped into here. And so I think he'll recover from this. He's obviously got a long body of work on youtube, and I think he will, he will make this right. But I think IT just shows how fragile these paris social relationships can be.

We probable already talked about this too long, but I do want to say one more thing about this APP, because as bad as IT is, I do actually want to stand up for the idea of paying people for their art, right? And one thing that I think this APP got right was, at least, and they said that they were going to share the proceeds of the APP fifty, fifty with the artist. And if you are worried that A I is about to put every human artist out of work and APP that comes along and says we're going to share that money with, I think it's at least were asking you out whether some of those artists deserve a living wage, right? And at the end of the day, fifty books isn't that much to pay that, you know, keep somebody .

lights on of their house. Yeah yeah. Are you a wall .

paper guy while papers I I like two or three times a year, but like, you know.

is is just a photo of my face.

Yeah, I get him someday, generally.

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