An Interview with Allison Jones
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I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We were on The Office together, and we're best friends. And now we're doing the ultimate office lovers podcast just for you. Each week, we will dive deeper into the world of The Office with exclusive interviews, behind the scenes details, and lots of BFF stories. We're the Office Lady 6.0. Hello.

Hello, everyone. Hey, that was so fun to hear our new intro. I love it. Yeah, me too. Well, we are very excited today. We are going to kick off Office Lady 6.0 with an interview you've all been asking for.

Casting Director Allison Jones. Yes. I can't think of a better person to have as our first interview for Office Lady 6.0. And she is one of the most requested guests you guys have written in about. Oh, yes. When we go through suggestions of people that Office Lady's fans wanted to hear from, the overwhelming winner is...

is Allison Jones. Listen, if you are a fan of movies and television, chances are you have seen Allison's name on some of your favorite programs. Here are just a few, okay? She helped cast Family Ties, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, Freaks and Geeks, Spin City, Undeclared, Parks and Recreation, Arrested Development, The Good Place, Rutherford Falls, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and of course, The Office. She also cast movies. I'm going to say some movie titles. Do it.

Barbie, Lady Bird, Talladega Nights, 40-Year-Old Virgin, Superbad, Thunder Force, Knocked Up, Sing, Ghostbusters, Funny People, Bridesmaids, Stepbrothers. Oh my gosh. I mean, there's so many. So many. We didn't even list them all. We didn't even come close. This woman is a powerhouse and has forever made her mark on the entertainment industry. And Jenna...

Before we play our interview with Allison, I thought we might want to answer this fan question. Okay. It's from Amelia in Akron, Ohio. Oh, that's a great question.

I mean, I think when you listen to our interview with her, you are going to hear what a thoughtful and engaging person she is. And for me, going in to meet with her was very different from meeting with other casting directors. She has a real curiosity about people. And I felt like she was very interested in getting to know me as a person as well as me as a performer.

That's exactly it. When I walked into her office, I was nervous, but she was instantly so calming to me. And I felt like she was working with me. That's how I felt. She wanted me to do the best performance I could. And I really felt that from her.

Well, we asked you guys to send in your questions for Allison, and you sent in so many fantastic questions. And we tried to ask her as many as we could. This is such a fantastic interview with an amazing woman. Let's take a quick break. And when we come back, Allison Jones is here. All right. You're listening to two former Party Planning Committee members. Yes. And you know what the one thing the Party Planning Committee never planned? What? A wedding.

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and its roots can be traced back to a cult called Synanon. How do I know this? Because I lived through it. My name is Cindy Ettler, and this is Season 2 of The Sunshine Place. Listen to and follow The Sunshine Place, an Odyssey original podcast in association with Robert Downey Jr. and Susan Downey. Available now on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.

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Hello. It's so fun to have you in the studio. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Not just Allison in the studio, but three bins of stuff that you brought from your storage facility. Yep. You also brought us absolutely gorgeous floral arrangements. Well, you deserve them.

They're so pretty. And we have a little something for you because you're our very first guest on Office Lady 6.0. Thank you so much. This is for you. Thank you. Can't wait. I've been looking at it to see what it is. Well, the folks at Odyssey helped us make these for our guests moving forward, and we're so tickled. This is fantastic. Okay, turn it around. Turn it around. Oh, my gosh. Oh. Oh.

Tell people what it says. World's best podcast guest. That's fantastic. It's a mug. And who drew the cartoon? Our friend Ileana. It's amazing. Yeah. She's a great artist. Yeah. I remember fondly sitting across from Steve when he was testing for the pilot and he had the world's best boss mug holding it and he was reading his monologue audition and he was holding this. So very good. Yay.

Well, Allison, we told our fans we were going to be interviewing you, and they sent in a ton of questions. And I thought we could kick things off with this one. This is from Chelsea Frazier in Greenville, South Carolina. Chelsea asked...

Did you go to college? And if so, what did you study? I'd imagine that casting would take someone who's good with people like maybe sociology or communications. But I'm curious where Allison built that amazing ability to spot a good fit.

Oh, God bless you, Chelsea. That's a good question. I did indeed go to college, not for any kind of media anything. I went, I grew up back east and I went to college in Los Angeles at Pomona College. And I was an art major and a math minor. After that, I went to business school of all places at UCLA, got an MBA degree, went to work in advertising for a year in New York City.

I didn't like it. I was miserable. And a friend of mine from business school, Lydia Woodward, who is a very successful writer-producer, she wrote ER, et cetera, China Beach, a lot of shows. She said, I'm at AFI. It's a gas. You should come out and do it. You can get good loans, student loans. So I did that, and I went to the American Film Institute. And after AFI...

I needed a job and my same friend Lydia said, I think you'd like casting because you remember faces. So I just applied for – that was when you had to type letters to try to get an interview. And you had to follow up the letter with a phone call. Anyway, one person called me back and I got the job with a casting director named Judith Wiener, the late Judith Wiener, who at the time was doing a lot of comedy for Thomas Harris. And this is the mid-'80s.

And so I started doing a lot of comedy then. I started doing a lot of comedy. My own taste was definitely developed just by having a bunch of brothers and sisters and my own vibe was developed. How many brothers and sisters do you have? I have five. So you're one of six? I'm one of six. And we were all into things like in the 60s and 70s, we worshiped the Three Stooges. We worshiped

Rona Martin's laughing. We worshipped a lot of comedy back then. Peter Sellers, Jack Lemmon, Walter Matthau. Anyway, that was definitely developed for me by my older siblings and we all were big comedy fans. You know, Alison, my dad would enter a room and he would go, enter! It was like Walter Matthau. And I didn't know what he was doing until years later. Oh, my God. And then I watched it with him.

from The Odd Couple and the Party, Peter Sellers, forever and ever. Well, this next question is one that we ask all of our guests, which is, how did you get your job on The Office? Okay. I think I had just finished doing a show called Freaks and Geeks, and I think Greg Daniels liked the realness of the actors that we hired on Freaks and Geeks, which was the first time I had ever been asked to cast a show like that. It was kind of when you...

When you look back, it was pretty earth shattering to cast teenagers who were not like, you know, then we called them WB people. The WB, the gorgeous kids who were 28 playing 18. Because everyone had to be super pretty. Everyone had to be Dawson's Creek and they were all in their mid-20s playing, you know, 17, 18. But Paul Feig and Judd Apatow were like, we just want real kids and kids.

I understood immediately being having been one of those myself. Then they were making a lot more teen shows than they do now. So having pretty well versed in the teen stuff, it was the kids who didn't get the show I did right before that called Roswell High, who I brought in for Freaks and Geeks, who I remembered were so good.

And they came in, like James Franco, Jason Segel. They came in and they were right for Freaks and Geeks. Jill Greenberg, my colleague in New York, and Corinne Mayers, my colleague in Vancouver, equally major in doing the pilot of Freaks and Geeks with Getting the Real Kids. Seth Rogen and Jill Greenberg found Sam Levine. But anyway, Greg, I think, just liked the way that was cast. And so he called me in and I interviewed. And I was so nervous because I...

HBO had just started airing The British Office. At the same time, they had also started airing LEG. So it was like, what is this brand new, unbelievably smart, funny way they're doing comedy in Britain? It's incredible. So anyway, I was so excited to get an interview for The Office. I'm sure he interviewed quite a few people. Greg is thorough. We had a good talk and Greg was, you know, he's very thoughtful about his process. And I appreciate that.

But I got that with Greg. I think there were probably a handful of casting people who interviewed for it as we still have to interview for all of our jobs like actors. And we do the same things. We beat ourselves up after an interview. God, why did I say that? That was stupid. Allison, with your resume, you still interview? They don't look at everything you've done and just say, give me Allison Jones, please? Not always, believe it or not.

I know. I know. I agree. For half hours, I still have to sometimes, which is sad to me. You know, I got a call to play the bitch on a show recently and they wanted me to come in and read. And I always do. I always do. I was traveling and I was like going to miss the window.

Yeah.

have to see people read because they don't have imagination. Like I have a fine-tuned imagination about taking someone, their personality, and seeing if it can be transferred into an acting thing, which is a large part, I will say, of how the Judd Apatow, Paul Feig,

office school of comedy came along because we have to look beyond how people do line readings and see what they're like as people. Again, people like Judd and huge comedy geniuses who sort of started this whole real comedy kind of vibe or improv-y kind of comedy vibe.

They'll see what they can bring to it as opposed to see how they read the lines that you wrote. Yeah. It doesn't have to be word for word. And people who are funnier than anything that's written on the page get a chance to improvise like Steve Carell. And some of the early Second City people who came to town when I first met them, Nia Vardalos and Steve Carell, people like that who were in Second City back in the early 90s probably, would come in and bless them all. Not be the greatest auditioners.

Comedy doesn't always translate well into auditioning with somebody else's sitcom jokes and punching the lines up. And back in the 90s, if you didn't stay on book, as they say, I think producers were horrified. No, she changed that line. I can't hire them. But with the onslaught of a lot of improv comedy from stand-up comedy to improv comedy casting.

One of the sad things is having to have people read who absolutely don't need to read. Well, I don't. I normally don't. We all feel that way. I guarantee you all casting people have great empathy for actors.

Or believe me, we wouldn't be doing this. I talk to aspiring actors sometimes, go into their classes and take questions. And one of the things that I always really try to tell people is that the casting director is rooting for you. They want nothing more than for you to come in and be great. Because if you're great...

their job is done and they have found you and it's exciting to them. So they are absolutely rooting for you. And I say like, it's okay to ask a question. Let them help you get this job. Yeah. Yeah. That's perfect. That's perfect. I mean, now it's still a little bit different because now I think the trend has headed to a lot of self-taping. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Which for me, self-taping is better for like a lot of pre-reads when I can meet

infinitely more people with pre-tape. We should tell people what a pre-tape is. That's where if you get an audition for a show, they email you the materials and then in your house, you put yourself on tape reading the scene and then you send it back to the casting director. But back when we were auditioning, it was more common that you would have to physically go into the casting office and

and sit across from someone like Phyllis or someone like you. And you read the scene with us. Yes. And we could even get maybe little notes or feedback in the moment. Yeah.

But now it really is a lot more since COVID, especially you send in a tape of yourself. I think it's less stressful. I think so, too. And I think actors, we now give people the choice. They'll often pick. I don't want to drive across town at two o'clock and I can do 10 takes at home. Those are considered pre-reads. I mean, and then they go to the producers and then we still have auditions with producers. Right.

But I think it's less in person. Oh, for sure. We couldn't for a while. And that was, you know, it was, I'll be honest, it was fairly hurtful when during COVID people would accuse casting people of not doing our jobs because we were having people self-tape. That was massively hurtful. Yeah. Because as a rule, who goes to bat more for an actor than a casting person? Exactly. Nobody does. Exactly. So many people out there have gigantic parts and careers and they have

no idea how close they came to not getting that job until a casting director fought for them and showed them every piece of tape we could find, showed them being interviewed on every talk show, everything, or didn't let them take another job and made sure they stayed available for the pilot of The Office kind of thing. That was rough. But what came of that is that all the self-taping, what came of it was we can put

So many more people on tape everywhere, you know, Britain, everywhere. And they get shots at it. Yeah, because they're not having to come into the room. So you can audition wherever you are in the world. Well, for people we don't know. It just opens it up. It opens up the floodgates and we can see if we're casting kids, they can go home and do it with their folks. Sure. And we are trained to spot something on the video. We don't necessarily go by line readings.

Yeah. We leave that to the executive producers and then we argue with that. Guys, look at this person. This kid is fantastic. He's green, but he can, you know, that's what you get. You get it's a leap of faith and you take someone green who you like their vibe and you go with it. Boy, that has worked for me in comedy. That's for sure. Absolutely. Yeah.

Well, I love not having to sit in the hallway anymore. The long hallway where you're waiting to go in and there's like eight people that look almost just like you. And then you can hear the audition. You can hear the person before you reading the same lines you're about to read. Am I crazy? I like all of that. No, it's okay. You like the hallways?

A little bit. What do you like about the hallway? You wouldn't anymore. I wouldn't? I don't think so. Maybe when you're younger and you really have to audition and go for something, you like that hallway because there's the camaraderie. What I always admire is the camaraderie of actors seeing each other at auditions. And they're friendly and they haven't seen someone in a while. Right. And they're saying, hey. And they're really thinking, oh, sh**.

I'm up against this person. I'm up against this person again and again. Because a lot of actors know who they're up against. They see the sign-in sheet and they know who just came in. My biggest competition my whole career was always Allison Hannigan. I'm sure. Allison Hannigan and I would be at all the same auditions. What would your – every actor would have the one they always saw at every audition. Yep. And Mary Lynn Ryscope was my other one. I bet. In fact, she was – She was up for Pam. She was. She was.

And she was really good, too. I know. I know. She and I tested against each other many a time. Yes, I'm sure you did. Mary Lynn has a very funny bit that she does in her stand-up where people ask for her autograph and they say, you were great as Pam. And she just was like, okay. She just doesn't even react anymore. That's very funny. I have a very funny Mary Lynn Ricegub story, which is that I had been auditioning for this pilot for

For the Dan Band. So he was doing this show and there was the part of the waitress. It was the lead girl. And when I read the sides, I thought, oh, I'm going to do like my best Marilyn Rice. That's that is I'm literally going to do an impression of her because that's how I see this part. And I walked into the test audition and she was sitting right there. And I thought, you know what?

At least I knew what they were going for. Like, I at least interpreted it right. And then guess what? There was one other girl. There was tall, blonde Australian actress there.

She got the part. Oh, my gosh. Mary Lynn and I did not get it. It went to the third girl. But I thought that was really funny. Yeah. I was like, oh, yep, there she is. Yeah. Mine is Rachel Harris. Oh, sure. Of course. And then she ended up playing my sister in the finale, which is perfect. The best. But I feel like there's a show out there somewhere where we're related. Yes. The Groundlings was very, very good to the office. Everybody in the Groundlings and UCB and all of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, speaking of that, a lot of people wrote in to ask, how do you start casting a project?

Can you tell us a little bit about how you assemble a cast and what were some of the things that you and Greg first talked about in terms of a vision for the show? Well, we had a template, the British office, and I think we discussed it didn't make sense to me to really do duplicates of the people in the British office, but their kind of essence, you know, Jim was a little less self-confident, that kind of thing. And

So I think he mostly discussed just real people. We just need to get real people in here to start to audition. So I started by doing a lot of pre-reads, meaning they came to my office and would read the sides. And I would – at the time, I don't think we taped pre-reads. We could ask Phyllis that question. I don't think we did. And that we were in an office across from CBS Radford, and it was just Phyllis and me. The before times Phyllis. Yes, that's right. Yeah.

And we always pre-read. Every casting director, you do so much legwork. You're pre-reading so many actors, blah, blah, blah. I knew Jenna. I knew you because you had already done Undeclared, right? Yeah. And I just knew you because of Naomi. Yeah. You took a general meeting with me. Yes, that's right. Was Phyllis there? Phyllis was there. St. Louis. Yeah. Right. And then you called me in for a role on Undeclared. Right. Right.

Right. And I got it. Right. It was one line. Yep. And then you called me back all the time for different shows. And I never got any jobs. But for five years, you kept bringing me into your office, Allison. Didn't you do Spin City? Spin City was my very first job. That was the very first one. And then Undeclared. Okay, great. You had brought me in for Freaks and Geeks.

Oh, right. But I didn't go anywhere. OK. And but you just kept calling me back and calling me back and calling you back for auditions. And then for the office, you called Naomi and you said, I'm going to bring Jenna straight to producers. I think she would be great for this role of Pam. But you need to tell her something. Tell her two things.

Dare to bore me with your audition. I'll never forget those words. Dare to bore me. Do not come in and do a bunch of comedy schtick. She needs to play it super real and also no glam. I want her coming in looking natural. Right. That's what they're looking for. I was like, got it.

Well, you came to mind immediately, for sure. Jenna Fisher for that part. And also, those were the days where you didn't have to attach big names to anything. Greg was very open just to...

new faces and real people. And I knew what he meant right away. So I just went back and I would usually do a week or two of pre-reads, getting to know everybody. And I would call Naomi and we would get all the groundlings in and et cetera, et cetera. And I did not want to duplicate the people on the British show, but just their sort of their essence in there, what they would bring to a similar character.

I think the pilot of The Office had a bit of a mandate from NBC to do it like the pilot of The British Office. Yes. It was scripted the same. With all due respect to Greg, it bugged me that we had some Britishisms in the script. Like, you like a drink after work? I'll never forget that. That's such not an American. Way to say that. That is not an American way to say that. That was Jim. All the Jims had to say, so you like a drink after work?

And I was like, oh, Americans don't say that. Please change it. But I don't think it was changed, at least for the auditions. So.

So it's a couple weeks of pre-reading. I have all the lists of who came in to pre-read here if you ever want to look at them. I kind of. Oh, including, you know, so many people now who are huge and who then went on to read for producers but didn't get the job. Allison, you gave me when the show wrapped as a gift my sign-in sheet the day I auditioned. And I still have it. Oh, good. Yeah. I even kept it in the red folder. You gave it to me. Oh, good.

And reading the same day that I was reading was Catherine Hahn. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. See, that stuff is great about casting. Many colleagues and I have those old sign-in sheets and the old sheets with notes about what we said about actors and things. At the time, everybody who was anybody in comedy came in. A couple people passed or had deals at CBS or something and couldn't come in. But everybody wanted to do the show. So we had a lot of great producer sessions. I remember my producer session with you. I'm sure you do. You were in the stellar first day.

Yeah, you said that you found half the cast the first day of producer sessions. That usually happens, by the way. Is that right? Uh-huh. That's very common. Casting people bring in their favorite people first. And if you get them on the day they're available, there are so many independent variables in casting. We're at mercy of other people's scheduling, blah, blah, blah, blah. But frequently for a movie and pilots, et cetera, you cast at the first week.

But because you have to go through the steps and people don't know and they can't think and they can't decide. Right, right. And there's 8,000 people who have to agree on one person. Now, anyway, more than was then for sure. Well, I remember coming in. Yeah. And –

You told me that. Big table. Yes. Big conference table kind of thing. It was not a good audition space. But you told me we're going to do a little improv at the producer's session. Right. I'm just going to ask you some questions and then you answer how you think Pam would answer the question. And I remember thinking, okay, Allison's note was, dare to bore me. So, okay. Okay.

So I'm sitting there. The camera is on me. There's all these people watching me. And you say, so, Pam, do you like being a receptionist? And I went like this. No. No.

And then I didn't say anything else. And the room was like crickets and my heart was pounding. I'm like sweating. And then everybody burst into laughter. And I was like, yes, that's what I was going for. Because I thought, listen, this gal, my circumstances are that my crazy boss has brought me in front of a documentary crew. I don't have media training. I don't know how to give a good interview. And I'm like, I don't know how to do this.

I don't want to say anything bad, but I also don't want to lie. So I'm going to just say no and leave it at that. And I thought the more interesting thing would be all the things you see me not say. Right. Right. Then anything I could possibly say, because I'm not a clever improviser.

with lines. I am not a Zach Woods. I do not have that command of language. But I'm like, but perhaps there's much I could say without saying much at all. I would say, though, Jenna, you're an excellent emotional improviser because you have great reactions and you react very honestly. That's another form of improv. Well, thank you. I think

of myself as not a very good improviser, actually. I disagree. I disagree. I feel like I'm a good reactor to improvising, I guess. But that's what The Office was all about. That style was reacting as opposed to acting. But I remember you giving me a little wink after that moment. Oh, I probably did. Talk about, like, encouraging the actor. And I was like, okay, good. And I, you know, and I wanted to do right by you because you had believed in me for all those years. I wanted, you know, I wanted to pay that back.

by doing a good job. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember them all so vividly. I do. And I would read, Phyllis did the taping. Those were the days where it was VHS tape and we had to transfer the VHS tapes to

in real time and make like six copies of each VHS tape. I have them here. Oh my gosh. And then send them to NBC or send them to, we had to overnight them to England, to Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. And you play, record, and you have to record for 90 minutes while you go through all the auditions.

Kids don't have to do that these days. It doesn't work. And something is digitally recorded. I remember being so nervous. I bet. That you were sending our tapes to Ricky Gervais. I probably should never have said anything. I know. Well, I think my agent might have told me that, you know, you call them, you're like, any feedback? Any feedback? Yeah. And they said, well, they did send you to Ricky and Steven. And I was like, oh, my God.

I'm like, well, that's good news. I'm really scared. I also remember right after your audition, because you were really maybe one of the first four people to read. I don't have the exact number of people, but that was our first session. And Terry Weinberg, you did a long audition because we had a lot of pages then to audition. And then Terry said to you, I could watch you read all day long. I remember she said that. I think I even have that on tape, her saying that after your audition. So she picked you right off the bat.

I love Terry. But it was such a long process. But you were a no-brainer to bring in for the first day anyway. I do try to bring in who I think are the best for the first day so that the writers get encouraged, et cetera, et cetera. That's so sweet. I'm curious to ask you, how first were you –

On the British pilot, because I had thought that maybe Steve Carell never really watched the British pilot. Steve never did. Because he didn't want to imitate. He never did. He purposely. And what about you guys? Oh, I loved it. You did. You were aware of it. I loved it. But I remember that. And I was like, wow, that's going to be huge and scary and daunting because it was done so well. And I was so worried. But I thought if anyone can do it, it'll be Greg. If anyone can give it a really great...

like second go, it would be Greg. And I think NBC had just done coupling and it wasn't, it was not. It did not go. It was not a success. It hadn't translated. Yeah. And I remember getting the call about The Office and I was so excited. I'd watched the whole thing. Yes. So you did. Yeah. You did. And I thought, really? They're going to put that on American television? And then I was so worried.

oh, no, are they going to change it? Yeah, right. But as soon as I met Greg and really as soon as I got the phone call from your office saying dare to bore me, I was like, oh, they're doing it. They're really going to do it. They're going to take a big swing. And I was excited. Yeah, it was...

Something I remember vividly the first meeting we had with the network when he had a list of names and they were like, let's try Philip Seymour Hoffman and then, you know, let's go for Paul Giamatti or whatever. And I'm so jaded. I'm like, they're never going to do in those days.

Nobody did TV. TV was the – comedy was the bottom of the barrel. It's so true. It was the bottom of the barrel. To me, it was the top of the mountain. It's all I ever wanted to do. Me too. But for the business, bottom of the barrel. For sure. You're a comedy casting person. You're a comedy actor. You're a comedy writer. You're a comedy director. You couldn't get out of it. But anyway, this was the first time other than Freaks and Geeks I had the opportunity to get real people who didn't have to be –

You know, vaudeville funny or sitcom funny, which is a very difficult thing to be. And so that just goes back into my past of the various kinds of comedy I have been able to witness being funny.

You know, that's a whole other story, comedy now being in a bit of a coma. But they wanted big names like Paul Giamatti? Well, they went right, yes, right away they wanted to. That wasn't always the way it was at NBC anyway. Some networks always had to attach a big name. I recall CBS always wanted to attach a big name to get anything going. NBC was more into stand-ups at the time and having a deal with it. They always made deals with certain stand-up comedians and developed roles for comedians.

In fact, Steve Carell at the time was under contract to a show for one of the stand-ups they had done a deal with and did probably a nine-episode. Tom Papa. Tom Papa. Come to Papa. He was on Tom Papa's show. And we had to wait for him to be released from that for NBC to even have a shot at getting Steve Carell.

But Nancy Perkins, who was the head of casting at NBCUniversal, always knew Steve would be a top choice for this. I think everybody pretty much knew Steve would be a top choice for this. But for the first month or so, we couldn't get him. And it was like, oh, OK, well, we'll keep bringing people in. And we brought in the best of the best. Everybody was a different version of Michael Scott. That could have worked. Patton Oswalt could have worked.

Bob Odenkirk would have been amazing. And, you know, all the Dwights we saw could have been a different version of it. That happens in casting a lot. You do have a lot of versions, but. On the day I read, you know. Yeah. I saw that. I remember you standing up there in front of the camera and everything. I do. I totally remember. I said, oh, yeah. Well.

Well, Eric Stonestreet read that day. Oh, okay. Good. Yeah. For Kevin. Yeah. Isn't that funny? That's amazing. I probably have proof of that. Yes. Yeah. It was on my sign-in. A lot of people wanted to know who was the hardest role to cast. Was it Michael Scott? I would say for me as a casting person, the hardest – no, we had choices for Michael Scott. For me, it wasn't the hardest. For me, it was finding a good –

Brian or a good it was the supporting cast that we didn't quite know if they would be sustained through the whole show right they were in the British office so filling out the world was actually tougher

Because for smaller roles, as you probably know from your early days in auditioning, it's really hard to be totally real and interesting and fun and just say yes and no, it's enough. Or no and no, it's enough. Or yes, or you have one line. One line. And your audition scene is one line. You're like, how do I stand out? How do I show that I can live in this world? It's so much tougher. It's really hard. It's even tougher for us because you need to see what can be sustained in the background

compared to how amazing they were on the British office. Still, I think the best comedy ever made is the British office, if I can confess that. I do.

Other than all the family. I know. Sorry. Hey, wait. It's Office Lady 6.0. She can say that. Just because he invented it. But I would say that for me, the hardest was choosing all these amazing people from Groundlings and stuff and really bringing them forward and seeing what Greg could get out of them in terms of characters. I mean, the happiest day for me was when Ken Kwapis came up to me and said –

Allison, let Phyllis read with the actors. I want to see if she can do it. This was at the testing. Because I was reading with Steve Carell and stuff while they had the professional cameraman there taking it. And so Ken just came up to me and asked if I could let Phyllis read. I was like, yeah, that'd be great. And he said, maybe she could be in the background. I'm like...

Oh, my God. Yes. She'll get a day's pay. So anyway, she didn't know at the time that's what was happening. She did not know that Ken had spotted Phyllis as someone who should be on the show. So we switched to Phyllis reading and she went, did she read with you in June?

and John. She read with me. She did. Okay. She then started reading with everybody in the room. And of course, she was great. She read with me. And she read with you. Yeah. So I think one of the things that helped me a lot was my first audition for the show was for Pam. Yes. And you and I can share about that. Yes. But right before...

I got the audition. Well, first of all, Greg reached out to me and he said, Ange, you've been doing improv for years. He had been to every show I had done. And I was one of the most annoying people who had three shows a week at some little theater with no parking. So I was doing all these shows and Greg came to all of them. He was so supportive. And he was like, Angele, this is perfect for you. Because he had done a lot of projects that I had not anticipated.

gone in for because I wasn't right for, but he said, they don't want anyone with credits. I'm like, thanks, Greg. Any well-known people, they want people who can, you know, he goes, I want someone who's good on their feet and can improvise. And he was like, so I want you to come in, but here's the deal. No one can know we're related. It will only hurt your chances. And I was like, okay, great.

And then I went in and I'm in a little tiny lobby room, tiny, tiny little room. It was the bungalow. Yeah. And it was me and Catherine Han sitting across from each other. And I was like, oh, shit, Paul.

We had famous people on that couch, I recall. It was a small, crappy little couch. And she was so lovely and nice. And I went in and Phyllis was reading. And Greg was in the way, way back, all the way against the back wall. And I finished my audition and I felt really good about it. I was like, that's the best Pam I can do. Although everyone laughed.

when I called Michael a jerk and I thought, I don't think people are supposed to laugh here. I think that's supposed to be a moment. That was in the fake firing scene. Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, when I saw Jenna do it as Pam and she like tears up when she calls him a jerk. I was feisty when I called him a jerk. Yeah. But, um,

At the end of the audition, I was getting up to leave and Greg like tucked his hands into his body so no one could see. He made like a little cave out of his body and he did two thumbs up and like smiled. And I was like, oh, well, if anything, Greg thought I did a good job. And that's enough for me. Right. And then I got the call that they liked me, but they didn't think I was Pam, which is no surprise. And then two months went by and I got a call and they said, I'm

We want you to come read for this kind of prickly lady in accounting. But you said to me, don't wear any makeup. I'm sure. Don't try to look cute. Like really, an accountant in a small company, no, like really, don't do your hair. So I didn't. I didn't do my hair. I pulled it back in a low ponytail.

And I just wore all gray because I was trying to see what do I have that looks businessy, but I didn't really have anything. And I literally wore no makeup, no mascara, and like a light chapstick.

Right. And went in. And I had one line. And I thought that thing that you said, how do you make one line interesting? Oh, it's so tough. Yeah. And then Ken, after I did my one line, which is, well, I think if they're going to fire someone, it'll probably be me. That was my line. And then after that, Ken had me stay in character and asked me a few questions.

And that's, I think, what did it really was that they then they could believe that I'd be this character. Right. They asked me something like, what do you think about Oscar? And I was like, do you have a stapler that works, but you have to push it down? It doesn't really always work. And I said something really boring. You said a stapler is great, but you still have to push it down. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what you think of him. Yeah. So I improvised that. And then, yeah. But you have a whole other side to that story. Yes. When we wanted to get you approved.

to play the role. By that time, I did know that you were a relative of Greg's. You didn't know at first. I did not know, no. Greg, though, to his credit, he brought in all of his Simpson writer friends to audition, and I was blown over by how cool and weird these comedy guys were. Because everybody in comedy writing seems to start as a performer. It seems that way. Probably Greg did not. I'm guessing he did not. I don't think he did. No. But I said, I think we have to have a plan. Nobody can say that Angela...

is part of Greg's, is an in-law, is a sister-in-law. So Phyllis and I, Phyllis being before times Phyllis, we said, okay, we're just going to talk about her and try to get her approved. But we, nobody can ever mention that she's a relative or that Greg is actually super familiar with her comedy and her style. So when it came to the time to discuss you,

Greg started throwing up all these roadblocks and like was practically blew it. Yeah, he practically blew it. And so Phyllis and I were like, we love her. She's great. She's not like any other female on the show. She's not like Pam. And somehow we got you approved. But Greg was testing us or something. Greg, I mean, like when I've asked him about it, he was like, I couldn't give it away. I had to like be...

He had to be like very skeptical, like, well, are you sure? He was. He challenged us and Phyllis and I were like, he's blowing it. Greg, you're overselling it. I can't believe it. That's right. Yeah. He was protesting too much. Yeah. However, you did not get it because you were related to Greg. You got it because you were really good. Thank you. I would be the first to stop something that didn't work just because it was a relation. Believe me.

Well, I believe that. And I also know that Greg wouldn't bring me in. No, he wouldn't have. Because he was very honest about it. Greg was really good at asking improv questions, though. Very, very good at coming up with questions to ask actors that would let them just go for it. Yeah. Very smart. Yeah.

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So we've talked about you a lot on the podcast before, Allison. And we've had a lot of guests come on who are actors who were on the show, a lot of guest stars. And they tell stories about how you remembered them. I mean, I told a story today about how for five years you kept calling me in. And we got fan mail about it. Isabel H. from San Luis Obispo, California said...

A lot of cast members have mentioned how you remember auditions and think of them for future roles. It's a testament to how special you make actors feel and how much you remember them. It's so touching. How do you store all this information and have this kind of recall?

And then Caitlin from Syracuse, New York said, please talk about either your seemingly photographic memory or your amazing filing system. So many times we have heard actors or guest actors talked about how you remembered them and called them up for a role when it was right for them. How on earth do you keep track of so many people? Yeah.

Well, in those days, we actually had memories. We had an actual memory, not a digital memory. For me, and I will again speak for all my colleagues in casting, if we meet somebody that we think is special or gives a good audition, you cannot wait to bring them again to get them apart. And sometimes that takes time.

40 auditions before they get something. And you have to just keep bringing them in and bringing them in. But the memory part comes to probably me being old when my brain worked. And you do remember, because it's what we do, we do remember somebody who gives a great audition or somebody you bump into and say, oh, I'm glad I bumped into him. I got to bring him in for this, got to bring him from that role. And that's a big part of casting, I think, because what makes you like casting and what makes me like casting is...

getting the right person for the right role. The remembering part comes from auditioning so many people. And certainly I would write down something, remember him for somebody who's grumpy or remember because this guy was great, this, that, and the other thing. And then you just keep bringing people in. All of casting people do that. We just see someone we love and we can't wait to get them a job. And there's also, we talk with each other all the time. We're like, you got to meet this person. This person was fabulous. We just have to remember because that is part of our job.

And also, again, frankly, 30 years ago, you did have a better memory in your own brain than you do now digitally. I mean, I still am not, I have no filing system at all.

I look at my old audition sheets. I look at my old auditions. If somebody's especially good, people I've met recently that I didn't know, wonderful stand-up named Kat Cohen, I can't wait to get her a really great, great job because she's so good and everybody I know will love her. Am I allowed to say that? Yes. She'll be thrilled. Yes, exactly. She's pretty famous in the stand-up world. So when I see someone come along and I know that person is effing fabulous, I will not stop until I get them something good.

And at my early days, the office early days, it was Kristen Schaal, people like that. It was Jenna Fisher. It was just those people you had to work. Neil Casey, all these unbelievable – Zach Woods. Aubrey. Just had to meet them and you're like, I got to get them in. Got to meet Mike Shore. Got to meet Greg Daniels because that is my job. And it's also, thank God, what I like about it. So for whatever proclivity I have for actors and comedy people and people who make me laugh and people who are clearly –

very talented, maybe better at drama than comedy, blah, blah, blah, blah. We remember them because we like them and we can focus on that. It's a whole discussion about how memory works. But still, I do not have any kind of digital anything now. I don't watch – I should, but I don't watch enough TikTok or YouTube or anything like that. I sort of remember visually as well, I think I remember visually to get technical. Do you also go to –

see Groundling shows or UCB shows? Oh, yes. Yes. Not as much as I used to. Is that like a scouting thing? I never per se went scouting, but I mean, as I'm here scouting or anything, like the poor agents have to do sometimes. They go to an industry night and they see if they should sign certain people or whatever. We also have a network of comedy managers who need to get more credit than they ever get. I didn't discover anybody. The comedy manager discovered that person before I brought them in.

You know, Christy Smith discovered Charlene Yee. Jimmy Miller discovered everybody. Dave Becky, Dave Minor. They discovered all these people and brought them up from nothing and encouraged them and put together these shows with them. And all the greats are with all these unbelievable comedy managers. So I give them all the credit for doing the discovering.

Well, that's how I feel about Naomi. Naomi. I mean – Everybody she signs ends up on SNL. Kristen Wiig. It's amazing. Jerry Miner. Yep, exactly. So for whatever reason, whatever thing we have in our brains that makes us focus on – I mean we can visually and hear people in our brains.

Maybe we're all psychos. I don't know. But whatever that is, comedy managers need to have a lot more credit too. Do they get credit? I don't know. I don't even know. But I always say I didn't discover a soul. They all came from these great managers and agents. And then slowly improv comedy kind of got a presence in the comedy world. And we would bring those people into audition.

Let's see. We have a question here from Kimberly Ness from Rochester, Minnesota. Writes in and says, Allison, what was your all-time favorite episode of The Office and why? I mean, it could be as a fan or from a casting perspective, I guess. Well, it would be both. My all-time favorite episode, it probably, as a fan...

Was the basketball one when Stanley was bouncing the basketball and he couldn't do it, that episode. And I think I went to the set that day, so I saw a little bit of it. So it was my favorite. That had to have been my all-time favorite episode. It's not everybody else's all-time favorite episode. That's one of our all-time favorites. Oh, it is? That's a pretty great episode. And also Phyllis' wedding, for obvious reasons, because it was Phyllis and she was so good. And also Jim and Pam's wedding.

For sure. And then you came dancing down the aisle like that YouTube video. Yeah. I think they took that from the YouTube video. They did. Yeah. So that was pretty cool. I think those were my favorite episodes for sure.

Well, Allison, we just got so much mail for you because our fans just adore you and the work that you've done on creating The Office and so many of their favorite shows. So I wanted to read you this. This is from Brenna C. in New York. Hi, Allison. Not a question, but just wanted to say how much of an impact you have had on the television industry throughout the years. It is so comforting and delightful to be watching a sitcom from a decade within the last 30 plus years and see your name pop up.

You have been directly responsible for the most beloved characters on our screens, and that does not go unnoticed by fans. That's so nice. Anyone who knows TV knows Allison Jones. We see you and we appreciate you. Thank you for taking chances on people who are trying to live their dreams because it makes dreams real for millions of people from that point on. Thank you, Brenna. Isn't that so lovely? Yes, that's amazing. Yes, thank you so much.

Yes. And we got a lot of letters like that. That's incredible. Yeah. I mean, for me, Allison, I was out here for eight years and I

You were the casting director that kept calling me back. I just needed you really to believe in me and give me that access to those parts. Right. And that is what changed my life. But it also kept me going. I mean, just the fact that every six or seven months, Alison Jones would call with a part for me. Maybe it was just a guest star. Maybe it was a new pilot.

That was why I wasn't flying back home to St. Louis and giving up. Right, right. Was because my phone would ring and you would bring me in. Right. And I so appreciate it. Oh, you're so welcome. And also, you're both so good at this, this podcast thing. It's quite amazing. Thank you. But I would say that that is a large amount of faith that we have in people and in actors. And what I want, when actors ask about what's the thing that

You can advise actors on, or what is the one word you have for actors? And I say tenacity. Faith for the people who have to choose you. Leap of faith for the people who have to choose you. And for actors, tenacity. So many actors. God bless him, Ken Jeong. I brought him in so many times for Curb. He finally got a Curb. He finally got an office. And now Ken is doing okay. But yes, we have faith and you have to have the tenacity. So...

And that is the big story of many successful actors, I think, having the tenacity and the... My acting coach, he used to say, success is opportunity meets readiness. Yes. You can't control the opportunities. Right. But you can control the readiness. Right. So you just be ready.

for when Alison Jones calls, basically. You're the opportunity piece. Oh, good. Thank you very much. And, you know, I just tried to always be ready. And he also said the key is building a consistent body of work. Yes. So that every time – and he would literally use your name because you were the casting director that was calling. He would say every time Alison calls, you are ready and you show her a consistent body of work.

And if you do those two things, eventually, eventually, the right fit will find you. Right. My first boss to whom I owe everything, the late Judith Wiener. Anyway, I owe her everything in terms of any kind of casting theory. But she used to always say there is one perfect part for every actor.

So, and I believe that. She said there's one perfect part for every actor. Well. And keep bringing them in. Yeah. Thank you for fighting for us. Oh, please. Because we know you did. Yeah. We do all the time. We know we wouldn't be here without you, Allison. Truly. Oh, thank you. It means so much to us. Really. I'll get choked up. Thank you for this. Yeah. No, I would too. Yeah. You changed our lives. After I came back to the office after interviewing with Greg and everybody, I

I remember saying to Phyllis, the before times Phyllis, God, I hope I get this job. I think it would be one of the most important jobs I've ever had. This show is fantastic. It's The Office, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And little did I know it was more important for Phyllis. Yeah. Hugely life-changing and important for me. But at the time, who knew? Yeah. Who knew? It was really important for Phyllis. So amazing. And for the people who make Inside Out. Yeah. How proud are we of Phyllis? She's amazing. So amazing. I was crying. Yeah. At that, that you just said. Um,

Hi, Phyllis. So happy for Phyllis. So happy for Phyllis. Well, Allison, this was absolutely delightful. Is there any memory or anything that we have not touched on that you'd like to share with our listeners? I'm going to look through our questions one more time. Yes, I would like to share. You had a question there that you didn't ask. Oh. You had asked on the questions section.

Something about a special phone. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. This was my question. Yes. From Jenna F. in Los Angeles. Jenna F. writes in. OK, Jenna. Yeah. OK. Jenna said, I'm sure it's great to call and tell someone that they got a role, but you have to make a dozen other calls to tell all the other people that they didn't get the role. And what's that like?

Telling the actors they got the roles is the job of mostly the managers and the agents. So we have to call and tell the agents and the managers that their client did or didn't get the role. And the one I remember the most is you, Jenna Fisher. What? When you got the office. Okay. I probably... The worst call was having to tell Bob Odenkirke he didn't get the office, but...

I was able to tell the people who got the office they got the office. So I called up Michael Green. That was my agent at the time. Your agent at the time, Michael Green. And they always know what you're calling about right after a test. And I said, hi, Michael. And the import of it hit me as much as it probably hit him and would have hit you. I said, I am calling to tell you that Jenna Fisher got the office.

It's exactly what I said. And there was silence. There was silence. I think he was probably crying a little bit. I was even getting emotional. I'm getting emotional now. Because for some reason at the time, it hit me that that was a big,

deal for Jenna Fisher to get The Office. It was a big deal for me. And who even knew at the time what would happen with The Office? Yeah. You know, so that is the one that I remember the most. I hate having to call. I hate making those calls. It falls on us, of course, God forbid. Over the years, I've had to call and actually fire actors from a set. It's awful. No, it's awful because people don't man up and do it themselves, you know, directors and things. They don't want to do that kind of thing. So we get to do the dirty work.

So what it's like is it's awful, but it's great to be able to tell an agent or a manager that their client got a huge role that we know will be life-changing.

And even the best are the small roles that will be life-changing. When I get to hire somebody phenomenal for one line on Curb Your Enthusiasm, and they're the ones who send bottles of wine and flowers. It's like you're spending your whole salary and it's one line. But to them, it's the start of everything. So that's what's the greatest part of casting is getting these people you believe in, finally getting them the gigs.

And it takes so long. Jack Black used to come in for one line parts all the time and he killed it. And we talk about a person who could kill one line. It was Jack Black. I could kill in a good way.

And when he finally started getting the parts, it was phenomenal. You know, the rest is history for Jack Black, but still probably a full decade of Jack Black. But anyway, it's the small parts that are pretty amazing, too. And the unknown people to get a part. You know that it's a joyful, wonderful thing. Allison, this was amazing. Thank you so much for coming in. Yes, Allison, thank you. You had such a deeply impactful role in casting The Office and everything.

I'm just so excited to share this interview with our fans. Well, I just loved that so much. You know, Angela, I realized we never even cracked open her three bins of stuff. I know, but she said she'll bring them back anytime. We talked about it after we finished the interview. We're like, Allison, you carry those all the way up. Oh, my goodness.

And I just love getting to see her in person. We've traded so many emails back and forth over the years of doing this podcast. And Angela, I know you ran into her recently, but I had not seen her in person in so long. And it was so great. It was. It was just so wonderful. Well, thank you, everyone, for writing in with your questions. They were just terrific. And let us know who you want us to talk to next. And don't forget, on Monday, we are going to start rerunning our rewatch series.

Starting with the pilot. And we have some really fun second drink tidbits for that one. We're going to pop on before every episode and give you some new thoughts and observations about those episodes. And some new nuggets that we're finding. All right, you guys, we hope you had a great Wednesday. We will see you next week for more Office Lady 6.0. See you then.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies. Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey. Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins. Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer and our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbico. Odyssey's executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Reese Dennis. Office Ladies is mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.