A Look Back on Counseling
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Be warned that once you pick up a refreshingly cold drink from McDonald's and

and people see just how refreshingly cold that drink from McDonald's is, you may create drink envy. Because there are drinks. Then there are drinks from McDonald's. For a morning brew that really creates a stir, get any size iced coffee, including caramel and French vanilla, for just 99 cents before 11 a.m. Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal. Ba-da-da-ba-ba.

I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We were on The Office together. And we're best friends. And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch Podcast just for you. Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you. We're The Office Ladies. Hello. Hi there, everybody. All right. Today, we're going to talk about counseling, which is Season 7, Episode 2. But first...

Ange, I feel like I want to share with our podcast listeners the morning that we had getting here. Okay. We had quite the text thread going this morning. It was real wonky. With Sam and Cassie, you and me. I've got a summer cold. Yeah. I can't believe it.

I am congested again. Like, I can't believe it. You just kicked it. I barely kicked it, and now it's back. This is, you know, kids going to camps, and I don't know. We're bringing all the stuff home. Jeremy McGerms.

So this morning, y'all were checking in with me. You're like, Jenna, are you okay to record? And I was like, I'm going to rally. I'm going to do it. Yeah. And then Sam was like. Yeah, I was like, I don't bring enough to this podcast. I'm going to bring food poisoning. Oh, Sam. And, you know, Cassie and I are looking pretty good this morning. Yeah, I don't appreciate that. We both just finished off a donut. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. They have donuts in the lobby today. I want to point out Jenna's almost horizontal. She's almost reclined. She's pulled another chair next to her chair so she can recline. But listen to this. So after Sam and I are both like, we're going to do it. We're going to rally. We got it.

I reached into my closet to grab my office lady's hoodie and I sliced my finger open on a broken edge of my plastic hanger. Oh. So then I'm like, you know what? It's still okay. Yeah. I'm still going in. Yeah. So I'm driving in to work and driving my daughter to camp first. And there was this big, sort of that moment where someone cut in front of the line of cars that were headed toward this one exit. Yeah.

Everything slowed down and I had to slam on the brakes, but I could tell around me that like there was not enough space for everybody. Oh no. And I... Did you get hit? Yeah. Did you hear the noise? You got hit? Did the brake noise before it? Like where you know it's coming? No, it wasn't that. I just could feel like the time and space around me. It slows down. And I said out loud to my daughter, I said...

I think we're going to be in an accident. And then the person behind us ran into us. It was a fender bender to call it an accident. It's not really an accident. And then, of course, it's L.A., so I'm expecting this person is going to take off. I'm like, no way he's pulling over. He pulled over. He gets out of his car. Young guy. So sweet. He's wearing a Vote for Pedro t-shirt. Oh, Napoleon Dynamite fan. Yes. Yes. We check my bumper.

Nothing to write home about. We're all going to be fine. But here's the kicker. Guess where he was going to go to work? Where? The Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Oh, at Universal. Yes, which we had just been to a few days ago. I got so excited. I was like, oh my gosh.

He had just moved here from Hawaii. He had borrowed this car from the person he's living with to drive to his job at Wizarding World of Harry Potter. You know, they all talk in accents in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. It's very theatrical, the whole experience.

And I said to him, do they make you speak in accents? And he said, no. If you have an accent, you can speak in it. But he said he does it anyway because he's an aspiring actor and he likes to do voice work. We had a lovely chat on the side of the road. And now here I am. And he's in the lobby and he's going to... No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

I love the idea that he bumped into Pam from the office and you were excited about his job. I was. I was like, tell me everything. No, he did end up recognizing me and I took a photo with him. So if you know this guy and he tags us, I'll try to find it. I'll repost it. I love that you were just chatting him up on the side of the road because I would have been there for all of that.

And then I would have been like, what are you doing today? I know. I was like, well, I should probably go. I have to go to work. I have to drop my daughter off at camp. Exactly. But we're all fine and we're here. I think I'm maybe good for the day. You're good. I don't know. Knock on wood. Knock on wood. All right. That was my morning tangent. Should we get started? Let's do it. This episode of Counseling was written by BJ Novak and directed by Jeffrey Blitz. And here's your summary.

As a punishment for spanking Luke in front of the entire office, Michael must complete six hour-long counseling sessions with Toby. Dwight seeks a pretty woman-style revenge on a salesman who snubbed him at the Steamtown mall, and Pam scams her way into a new job title. I mean, in this episode, I was like, Pam, who are you?

You know, when this happened, it was sort of like one of those controversial character moments. We got a lot of messages about it. And we also got mail. I'll read it later. Okay. All right. Fast fact number one. I mentioned that Michael has to do these counseling sessions with Toby. Yeah. That's our A storyline. Yeah.

It's revealed at 2 minutes and 52 seconds that Toby has a degree in social work from Temple University. I took a picture of it. He's standing so proudly by it, and then it goes wonky. Yes. Well, the shot is only two seconds long, but a lot went into getting that diploma because it is a real diploma from the actual university. We got a letter from Raymond Betzner in Williamsburg, Virginia, that says this.

I was the Associate Vice President for Marketing and Communications at Temple University in 2010 and helped get Toby his degree.

The degree is real. How can Toby be a graduate from Temple University? Oh, well, lady, we got a bunch of mail about, like, when was this happening? Was this before or after he was in the seminary? Was it before or after he worked in advertising? Toby's backstory is much like Andy's. It's just a free fall. It is. Raymond went on to say, I got an email one day from a member of the office staff saying,

I'm retired now and no longer have access to my email, so I can't tell you who exactly it was. I was told they wanted Toby to have a master's in social work from Temple University and could I make it happen? And naturally, they needed it fast. Raymond goes on to say, if you know anything about higher education, you need to know two things. First, we take degrees and diplomas very seriously. And second, higher education doesn't move quickly.

But I was a fan of the show. I thought it was worth a shot. It took calls to the university registrar, the university council, and the cajoling of several others to clear the path for this to happen. Along the way, I kept getting nervous calls from folks at the office because they needed it soon.

I was trying. Oh, my gosh. Then Raymond says, I will also admit that I tried to get a little something in return for all this effort. Oh, Raymond. I wanted to know if Michael and Holly got together before Steve Carell leaves the show. Raymond! Did they tell him? No. He says the staff at the office aren't dumb and they didn't let anything out in advance.

I love that what he wanted was scoop on storylines. Exactly. Not a set visit. Right. Not like an autographed something. Tell me about Holly and Michael. He needed to know. He said, I'm pleased to say we were able to get the diploma approved and printed and sent to California. The photo of Toby pointing to his Temple University School of Social Work diploma was hot on Temple University's social media for weeks. Aw.

So I reached out to Randy Cordray about this, Angela, and he said that the writers had originally considered Wake Forest University for Toby. But when they inquired about getting a degree in social work, they found out that Wake Forest does not offer a degree in social work, just sociology. So that's when the writers pivoted to Temple University.

And James Carey solved the mystery for Raymond. It was Phil Shea who reached out to him. Phil Shea sent him a prepaid FedEx envelope to send back two diplomas. And in return, he did send Raymond two Dunder Mifflin hats. Aw. So, Raymond, do you still have your Dunder Mifflin hat?

Email us a photo of you with your hat. Please, Raymond, can we put you in Office Lady Stories? We would love it. Well, I love knowing all of that. I mean, those little details always blow my mind. Same. All right, are you ready for fast fact number two? Yes. All right, this one is a little detail from Pam's storyline of trying to get her new job. We got a lot of mail from folks in Australia. Oh, yeah, because she talks about Canberra. Yes. Yes.

We got mail from Kimmy G in Canberra, Australia, who said, I grew up in the Barra. And this is just so random because Canberra is a tiny, freezing, often-missed city in Australia. Most people don't even realize that it is the Australian capital. And then she gave this fun fact. Let's hear the fun fact. The fun fact is...

When they were deciding where they should put the capital of Australia, they couldn't decide between Sydney or Melbourne. And it was a really heated debate. And they couldn't agree. So they literally built a whole new city in the middle of both of those cities. Just to make it the capital? Yes. Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

Well, Kimmy G got me curious about Canberra, and I started looking up details about the city. It looks very cool. But the thing that really stood out to me is that there are all of these rumors, I guess, or stories, scuttlebutt, lore. Lore. Canberra lore. Maybe urban legends. Yeah.

that there are these secret underground tunnels throughout the whole city. And I guess the rumors are that these tunnels have been used for like international espionage. Oh, super sleuthing? Yes. Sleuthing in Canberra? So I digged some more and I think most of the rumors have been debunked. But then I started to think that the debunking was part of a conspiracy to hide the tunnel's

Went so deep on the tunnels. Here's what I've decided. Okay. Lady, when Mom Detectives is in its like fifth season. We're going to Australia? Yes. We need like an international episode. We investigate the tunnels of Canberra. Oh my gosh. Yes. Well, I knew that Canberra was the nation's capital because one of my best friends ever, Micah, is from Canberra.

Oh my gosh. Yes. I didn't know that. Does he know about the tunnels? I don't know. We can call him. Should we call him? Yes. Yes. We can get to the bottom of it right now. We're going to call my friend, Michael Peters, also known as Micah. Let's see. Let's give him a buzz. Hey, Micah, we're calling you from the podcast. It's Angela and Jenna. Hi. Hi. How are you? We have a random question for you about Canberra, your hometown. Yes. Here is what I need to know.

Is it true that there's an elaborate tunnel system underneath the city that is used for espionage? Have you heard this rumor? That I do not know. I heard that there were tunnels underneath the Parliament House. Because, you know, the whole government sits in Canberra. I don't know about secret spy tunnels. So I was able to confirm that

There are little tunnels under the Parliament House, but I read this rumor that their secret passageways go all the way under Lake Burley Griffin. Wow, that's very cool. I did not know that, though. You want to tell them what you told me last night, what Canberra's known for? Two things you said.

Well, Canberra is, you know, the capital of Australia. It's like Australia's DC. And it's also famous because it's where they make all the porn in Australia. It's the Van Nuys of Australia. And I'm pretty sure we're also the only state, because it's a territory like DC, the Australian capital territory, where you're allowed to have fireworks. Oh, how about that? Fireworks and porn. How about that?

And tunnels. And like legal prostitution too. Oh, well, Canberra, stepping it up. What about gambling? Can I gamble there? Yeah, there's a casino. Yep. Wow. But I think you can do that in other states too. It's not like in the US. I see. I see. All right, Micah, thank you so much for being our 411 call about Canberra. Yes, our Canberra expert. All right, love you. Okay, love you guys. Bye. Bye.

Well, we learned a lot of things we didn't think we were going to learn about Canberra. Yes, we still are unsure about the tunnels, but I'll tell you what, this episode of Mom Detectives just got more fun. Just got real interesting. I mean, there's a lot that the mom detectives are going to see when we go there. They're going to stumble across. Wowzer. All right. Thank you, Micah. Yeah.

Let's move to fast fact number three. It's just a little location breakdown. Our final storyline of this episode is going to have Dwight going to the Steamtown Mall. We went to the Burbank Town Center Mall to shoot this. And that precious heirloom store, that was created from scratch by our set decorating crew headed by Steve Rothstein. They used an empty store space on the second floor.

And Randy shared with me that the original outline for this episode, like it never even made it into a script, originally had some scenes in a food court. And so, you know, they start prepping the episode long before we shoot it. So our locations manager, Kyle Alexander, actually had to find an empty store that we could dress that was also next to a food court.

And he did it. We never used the food court, but pretty amazing. I mean, just another example of how they have to like always be ready. Yeah. And then maybe we didn't even need it. They always hustled.

But lady, that's all I got. Those are my fast facts. Well, before we get into this episode, I have a little something. Yes. I wanted to share something from one of our Office Ladies listeners. A lot of you might have heard of Elise Myers, and if you don't, go find her on Instagram or on the Tickety Talk, as I call it. I'm following Elise on Instagram, and I love her. She is a delight and brings absolute joy to the world. Yeah, and

She's hilarious. I mean, two words, Taco Bell. If you know, you know that one went viral. But you guys, she's also a fantastic singer. And when I jokingly said on the podcast, can someone write a Whispers in the Break Room song when we were talking about cover up? She did it. It's awesome. And you got to hear it.

I overheard that Kelly's Birkin bag is actually fake and that Michael can't remember his own middle name and that Andy is always two hours late. These are the whispers in the break room.

I heard that Meredith turned her desk into a mini bar and that Stanley schedules meetings and just sits in his car. And that Ryan didn't graduate with a master's degree. At least that's what I heard, but you didn't hear it from me. These are the whispers in the break room.

If you want to know what's going on and you want it to come to you, the whispers in the break room. Just stick around a long enough to learn a thing or two. And that was Whispers in the Break Room. Back to you, Angela and Jenna. Is that amazing? Amazing.

Love it so much. When I saw that, you know, I follow her on Instagram. And when I saw that, I was like, oh, my God. And you texted me. It was like a simultaneous thing where we're like, oh, my gosh, we're seeing this. Elise, I love so much about that song. It also kind of reminded me of when like Dolly Parton would harmonize with Emmylou Harris and Linda Ronstadt. But you're doing it all with yourself. It's like my brain doesn't even understand how you do it. And it's amazing.

Thank you for letting us play that on Office Ladies, Elise. All right. On that delightful note, let's take a break because when we come back, Jim and Pam are late to work. Be warned that once you pick up a refreshingly cold drink from McDonald's and

and people see just how refreshingly cold that drink from McDonald's is, you may create drink envy. Because there are drinks. Then there are drinks from McDonald's. For a morning brew that really creates a stir, get any size iced coffee, including caramel and French vanilla, for just 99 cents before 11 a.m. Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer or combo meal. Ba-da-da-ba-ba.

Well, we are back and Dwight is, he's shaming Jim and Pam because they're late again. But you know what? You know, because Jim had to open that bathroom door a while back, they didn't get into the daycare that's close to Dunder Mifflin and now they have to drive all the way across town. Dwight sees an opportunity. He's like, hey, guess what? There is a daycare center right here in this very building. Dwight is going to give Jim and Pam a whole tour.

Yes, the Sesame Avenue Daycare for Infants and Toddlers, where Moe's has apparently been painting in the dark with a Cabbage Patch doll strapped to his chest, is located in the former Michael Scott Paper Company. Well, Jenna, I thought I would break down the special features of the Sesame Avenue Daycare Center for Infants and Toddlers. According to Dwight, this is what your child's experience will include. Okay.

a language skills and cognitive development area, which is just an eye chart on the old rusty shower. There is one blue bouncy ball on an otherwise empty wire shelf, a magical toy box that has plastic forks and knives, and one soy sauce packet. He was very embarrassed by that. I know. He should be. He's apologized. He should be.

There are four metal buckets. One is a restroom, one is a feeding trough, one is a play bucket, and one is for a possible plant. And for those of you who love a good background catch, if you go to 45 seconds, the Cabbage Patch doll strapped to Moses' chest only has one red shoe on, and the other foot just has a sock. Did you have Cabbage Patch kids when you were younger?

Oh, I was overseas and I came stateside and everyone had one. And I was like, I need this in my life. So yeah, I got one. What'd you name it? I don't remember. You don't remember? This was such a big deal. I had two Cabbage Patch Kids and I remember their names so clearly. Christine Marie and Casey Alexander. Casey Alexander had curly auburn hair and Christine Marie had blonde ponytails. Mine had blonde hair with some freckles. I don't remember her name.

You didn't love her. I didn't love her. Clearly. I got her late in the game, and she clearly didn't make a stamp on me. Oh, wow. You remember I was trying to get Mandy Moore to name her son Casey Alexander in honor of my Cabbage Patch Kid. I don't know why she didn't listen to you. Well, she has a second baby coming. Maybe she'll take my advice this time. Mandy, Casey Alexander is waiting for you. Although, let's point out, none of your children are named Casey Alexander. No.

Well, listen, I had to ask Randy a question when I saw this cold open, Angela. I needed to know, did they have to clean out this room again? Because it was storage. Yeah. He said no. This is what he said, quote, we had finally gotten smarter and left the room empty and found a different place for post-production storage. He was just so fed up. He was like, fine. Yeah.

Randy also shared with me that Mike Schur, who plays Moe's, was insanely busy over at Parks and Rec and that the writers of The Office would often try to put Moe's in an episode and then Randy would go check with Mike's schedule and then he wouldn't be able to do it and they would have to take Moe's out. This happened many times.

So Randy said, finally, finally. Mike was like, yeah, my schedule's totally clear that day. I can come drop a cabbage patch to my chest. And everyone was so excited because we got to have Moe's back.

Well, this episode opens with Toby and Michael sitting opposite one another in the break room. They're having a full-on stare down. Michael looks like the emperor, you know, in Star Wars when he's like giving that death look. No, I wouldn't know that because I haven't seen those films. I know you're thinking of Emperor Palpatine. Yes. Yes, thank you. Well, that's Michael in this opening scene. Thank you, Sam. I believe you. Mm-hmm.

We had a fan catch from Zach Kay from Acton, Ontario, Canada, who said, not really a question, but a comment. I love how this episode begins with 15 seconds, yes, I counted it, of silence before any dialogue. This must be a record for the longest silence in the show. What's the longest silence? 27 seconds of silence.

Oh, with Jim and Pam. On the booze cruise. Oh my God, I was in it. In the longest, I'm like, what are you talking about? I wrote about it in a book. Welcome to my summer cold, everyone. But yes, I have to say, I thought it was a pretty badass move that the episode opens with so much silence.

Well, I love how seriously Toby has taken this chance to help Michael. He moves a small love seat. He puts a chair in there, a little coffee table. He has a plant, a box of Kleenex. He's going to like get down to business and have therapy in the break room. We had some fan questions about this setup. The first one's from Nicole Q from Bowie, Maryland.

Who would like to know, where did Toby get these sofas from? Or the setup? They're in the annex in the little hallway. Oh, I was thinking they were from front reception. Because remember in the injury, Michael moves the couch from front reception into the conference room.

I thought they were the ones that were in the Annex Low Lobby area. You're probably right. Closer. Closer. Not as big of a move. Thanks, Ange. You're welcome. Now we have a fan catch from Emily J. in Ohio who has some comments about the little plant that you said Toby put on the table. What are the comments?

Emily's theory is that the plant looks exactly like the one that died when Pam was on maternity leave. And Emily thinks maybe Toby brought it back to life just to impress Pam. Emily, that is amazing. I sort of just thought Toby took Pam's plant. Yeah. Pam, can I borrow this for today? Yeah, I wasn't sure because Pam has a different plant on her desk now. You know, the one with the bow. It looks almost like bamboo or something. Yeah.

So I don't know where this ivy plant came from. Well, Emily, it definitely looks like a pam plant. I agree. Dwight is going to just burst into the bullpen telling everyone they must boycott Steamtown Mall.

Also the kiosk. Cancel all your business with Steamtown Mall. And then Ryan has one of my favorite lines. Ryan says, America is one big mall. I loved that line too. Did you know there's a mall like outside of New York and you can go skiing in it? What? Yeah. And surfing.

How do you ski in a mall? They have an indoor skiing thing. My son found it because he loves skiing and he is trying to find a place to ski in the summer. And he would like to ski in a mall in New York. If you go, will you please send me a picture? Of course. Please. I feel like there's a good chance we're going to end up skiing in this mall at some point in our lives. I'm so curious.

Jim wants to know, did something happen? Andy asks Dwight for context, but Dwight tells him, you don't want to know. Yeah. Back in the therapy break room, Toby is really trying to connect with Michael, trying to get him to share about himself. And Michael is just saying a whole bunch of baloney to Toby, trying to get a rise out of him.

This would have led to a series of talking heads where the bullpen shares their thoughts on Michael getting therapy. Oh, please. In the episode, it starts with Phyllis. She says, I'm glad Michael is getting help. He has a lot of issues and he's stupid. This runner would have continued. Here are a few from the shooting draft. These were my shoots. See if you can guess who said which talking head. All right. First one up.

Sam, Cassie, Jenna, here we go. I'm ready. Michael isn't complex enough to need therapy. Can't someone just calmly explain to him what's wrong with him? Oh, Oscar? Yes. Very nice. All right. Next one. It is high time. High time. Angela? Is it you? Stanley! Okay. Okay.

I think that line reading was just so good. Yeah. Okay. Angela does have one. And I thought rather than me reading it, let's just play it the way I said it on the day. Talking about how many feelings you have is a form of bragging. We get it. You have a lot of feelings. Whoop-de-doo. Wow. She's just so put out with everyone sharing their feelings. And Ryan has one that comes later in the episode. Oh, as the tag. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Well, we had a fan question from Sarah L. in San Antonio, Texas, who said, I would love to know if there is a backstory as to why Michael hates Toby so much. I feel like Michael has such a blind affection for his employees that there must be something more to his hatred for Toby that explains it. Or is it just the classic angle of manager hates HR? I looked into this. And Michael has a line when he's meeting Holly for the first time.

And he says that his job is to, quote, make the office fun, while HR's job is to make the office lame. So Toby's the fun stopper. Yes, and we kind of knew that. But then I found this amazing interview with Paul Lieberstein where he talks about this. How did they come up with, in the writer's room, this dynamic of Michael hating Toby so much? And he said that Michael's hatred of Toby goes back to a deleted scene from The Alliance.

This is where they found this like true hatred of Toby. In the scene, Toby is coming in to sign Meredith's birthday card. And Paul said, I just go in, write something quickly and leave. That's the scene. But when they were shooting the scene, I guess it took Paul a long time to physically write down what he was going to write down. I have a memory of this, that he was writing in the card and it took a bit.

Paul said, I could just feel him watching me and I could feel this hatred burning. And he said that Steve told him afterwards that it was in that moment that he decided as Michael to hate Toby. Paul said, it's really terrifying to act with Steve because he misses nothing. And that was when they ran with it.

that Paul went to the writers and said, Michael hates Toby. Because you know, if Jim took a long time to write a message, he would have all the patience in the world. Yeah. But Toby, not really knowing what to write and taking a bit, Michael's like, ah! Yeah. And then, of course, that led to one of my favorite lines, I hate so much about the way you choose to be. Yeah. Which is,

What sums it all up. Yeah. We're about to start a whole new story arc for Pam. She's not having a great sales day. I know. She's just going to own that she sucks at it. She like puts her head on her desk. And Jim knows too. Yeah. We had a fan question from Cassandra P. in Madison, Wisconsin. She said,

who said, this is one of my favorite Office episodes, and if I had an Angela-style note card to describe this episode, I would call it Full Pam. Oh, I love it! Pam truly becomes the main character in this episode, and it sets her up for empowerment and strength for the rest of the series. Also, this season, Pam's makeup is 100% on point. Go, Pam! Oh, you look super cute.

Pam got really good with eyeliner. She did. I don't know what happened to her over the summer. Like we said, I got married over the summer, so I was just glowing. I think maybe that's part of it. You were just a happy person. What's up next, lady? Let's see. Oh, what's up next is John Krasinski breaking a lot. He is so tickled by Andy coming up to Dwight. And saying, did you call my clients and use the F word? Yeah. Yeah.

There it is, five minutes, 13 seconds. John is looking at Ed and it clearly starts breaking in the background. Well, we find out why Dwight wants to boycott the Steamtown Mall. It's because he went there with Mose and he went to Precious Heirlooms and they wouldn't let him in. Yeah, he saw this amazing wizard holding a crystal. Yeah, he wanted this nice thing. He so rarely treats himself to nice things. Mm-hmm.

He made himself vulnerable. Yeah. He wanted it, and they denied him entry. Kelly says, you need a pretty woman there, asses. Mm-hmm. Everyone agrees. Well, except Creed, who says they should start their own mall. I know. I love that line. Jim offers to go back to the store with Dwight to teach them a lesson, and he's like, I'm coming, too.

This starts a hilarious storyline. Andy is going to start off with a talking head where he says, did you assume that I would automatically side with the rich snobby shop owner? He starts taking off his fancy cufflinks and throwing them, takes off his tie clip. There was a candy bag alt for Andy.

Oh, please. Here's what it said. I love revenge. Well, not like violent revenge. Not like Kill Bill. More like legally blonde. Nobody's getting the top of their skull sliced off today. Thank you very much. Didn't sign up for that. That's right.

I love that Andy is a Legally Blonde fan. This leads in to my personal favorite talking head. It's Dwight. And Andy. And Jim. And then Kelly. Yes. And all they're trying to do is tell us the famous scene from Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts gets her revenge on the snooty shop owner. Big mistake. Huge. That's right.

Well, let's take a break because when we get back, full Pam is happening. Sure is. She gets a real big idea. When you meet a burger that's got as much drip as you do, you know it's time to start rocking a napkin bed with your fit. No shame. Once everyone catches on to how fresh and juicy the double quarter pounder with cheese is, they'll all be stunting napkin fits. I swear. We're back and a man enters the office looking for the office administrator.

And Pam really perks up. Yes. Yes. Pam is like, that's me. I'm the office administrator. And we are not interested. We don't want your blinds.

Your window treatments. At eight minutes, 40 seconds. I'm busted. Who's busted? I'm busted. What are you busted for? I'm playing solitaire. On your computer? Yes, Angela Martin would never. Wow, that's very out of character. You should definitely have a spreadsheet on your computer. I know.

Well, I want you to know that we have a guest star in the house. Let's hear it. Vincent Angelo, who plays the salesperson, has been on Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy, Parks and Recreation, and House.

It's my new favorite. I don't know what I like more, discovering someone has been on Monk or House. You just like seeing a guest star in the house. I know. When they've been on House. It's become my favorite. I also like tracking if people have played more than one character on Law & Order. I love the big pause you took before Law & Order. I know. That's the summer cold. That is. Summer cold has you just one second delayed. It's like you're on a satellite feed.

Well, Pam's going to have a talking head now where she says there's a few ways you can get promoted. One, you can wait for an opening, a new job. You apply for it. That's the main way. Or this way where you just apparently lie yourself into a new job. So Pam is going to go into the kitchen. She's going to make herself a cup of tea.

Oscar's like, what's up with your new position? Congratulations. And she's clearly trying to suss out from Oscar what is a reasonable salary for this position. So she's like, yeah, I'm going to make 40K, maybe 50. He's like, 50? She's like, no, no, it's like 41 and a half. Yeah, 41.5.

Lady, we got some mail about this storyline, and both of these delighted me. I feel so proud. The first one is from Kelly M. in Melbourne, Australia, who said...

A couple of years ago, I was inspired by Pam's storyline in this episode where she just starts telling people she's the office administrator. So I did it myself. What? Yeah. She said, I work in a school, and a couple of years ago, I decided we really needed a sustainability coordinator. Okay. But it's quite hard to get new roles off the ground because of budgets and things. So I decided to just start calling myself the sustainability coordinator. Okay.

I added sustainability coordinator to my email signature, and I even sent some letters to businesses asking for donations of plants from the local nursery, etc., and signed off as the sustainability coordinator. Oh my gosh.

I am loving Kelly, I just have to say. Kelly went on to say, the next year, I added it as a suggestion to a list of new roles that were being created and the school agreed. Kelly, this is the slow play. I know, this was like a year. Like a year in the making. I am intrigued. Continue. They created an official position and gave it to me.

It's been a couple of years now, and we now have a team of five teachers and a student club. Kelly! We do heaps of fun things like plant trees, collect batteries and other recycling, and all sorts of things. Thanks for the inspiration, Pam. Wow! Amazing, right? Amazing.

I did just catch myself, guys. I think I got a saying wrong. What is it? I said Kelly did the slow play. Is it the long play? The slow play. You've combined long play and slow burn. Slow game? Slow burn. Slow burn. Long play. Long play. Slow burn. You created your own slow play. Slow play. Oh, my God.

That's very you, Angela. Well, Kelly, I'm impressed with your slow play. Guess what? I liked it so much. It sounded so right to me that I went with it. The slow play. Thank you. We got another one from Megan H. in Albany, New York.

Megan said, this episode inspired me to make up a new job title for myself. What, Megan? I was re-watching the episode, and when Pam says this could work too, I thought, huh, that could work. So I wrote up a very fancy report with a made-up job title, went to my boss and said, before you came in, the old boss and I were discussing this change. He approved the idea. I got a new title and a $10,000 raise. Gosh. I know.

Amazing. Ham, inspiring people to just go for it. Yeah. Creating jobs for themselves and getting them approved. I want a new title for my emails. What is Angela's new job title? Anyone? I'm going to go with ham coordinator. Ham coordinator. I was going to go with boss bitch. Sorry, not similar. Angela Kinsey, boss bitch. I'd like them both at the end of an email. Yeah.

Angela Kinsey, boss bitch hyphen ham coordinator. I look forward to that email. Okay. On our next business email.

I'll just sign off. Angela Kinsey, boss bitch. I know. Our company is Ramble. That's the name of our media company, everybody. Next time someone calls, I'm going to say, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and forward you to our boss bitch, Angela Kinsey. She can address that issue for you. Well, let's go back to therapy in the break room.

Michael is just continuing to make up a bunch of baloney to Toby. Yeah. I have to think this went to our standards and practices department when he said, well, the other night I was sitting at the table eating my penis. I mean, peas. And he's pretty sure he was probed by an alien life force. Alf. It might have actually been Alf. Yeah. Then he's going to tell Toby that he was raised by wolves. Wolves? I believe he says wolves.

And it's interesting, Angela, because it made me go to the script. And first of all, this whole wolf bit, you know, he ends up howling and everything. That was actually from our must-shoot candy bag. So that was an ad. And there was extra that went with it where Toby said, don't you mean wolves? And he said, no, Toby, it's not called Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf.

That was the joke, that he was going to say it's wolves because it's a wolf. Well, that would explain that line. I also was tickled when he said I was 25 years old before I saw my first human being. Yeah. That's how long he lived in the forest. Yeah. Toby is finally going to agree with Michael that this is pointless, you know? That's right. And he's going to say, why don't we just run out the clock of your counseling sessions by playing games? Yeah.

And he brought some fun stuff that he plays with his daughter. Michael seems happy with this. Yes. Meanwhile, Jim has brought Dwight up to front reception and the entire group is going to help transform him into a rich snob. One by one, they're going to like pick apart his wardrobe, his glasses. Do we like them? Do we not? We've stopped on them. Too late. We've crushed them. Too bad.

Kelly says his shirt is disgusto barfo. This scene was actually bigger and it showed who contributed to his final outfit. Oh, yes. In the shooting draft, Andy gives Dwight his vest. Jim gives Dwight his suit jacket. Creed gives him an old pipe that he stole from a museum. Kevin gives him a slightly used handkerchief. And they use Phyllis's scarf as an ascot.

Wow. So I spotted that that was Andy's vest, but I didn't know where the other elements came from. Thank you, Angela. In addition to dressing him differently, they're also going to give him some tips on, I don't know, how to communicate with people. Daryl suggests he say good morning, good afternoon, because people like that, to which Dwight responds, I see you every day. Can I say good month? That is a rain-Dwight crossover. Oh, that was 100% rain.

Totally rain. Rain with love. Nothing more than to say good month. Yeah. And just get it all done. Yeah. He loves you. He's glad you had a good month. We don't need to rehash everything every day. That's right.

So they're done. They're ready to go. Everyone agrees. He looks great. Yeah, go get him, Dwight. Erin's going to take a picture with her disposable camera. And then throw it right in the trash. Yeah. She has a talking head where she says disposable cameras are fun, but it seems wasteful because you never get to see your pictures. Oh, Erin.

We had a fan question from Taylor in Athens, Georgia, who absolutely loves this talking head, this moment with the disposable camera, who wanted to say hats off to the writers, the director, and Ellie.

Lady, when this episode originally aired, this talking head, it blew up the message boards. Yeah. This was like, it reminds me of something you'd see in the movie Airplane. You know what I mean? Yeah. Shirley, you can't be serious. I am serious and don't call me Shirley. Like it's one. What's your Victor vector? Exactly. It's right in that like comedy lane.

And we threw it in there. I think only the character of Aaron could get away with this joke. Oh, for sure. Aaron or Creed? Yeah, maybe Creed. You're right. Sidebar note, all the black and white photos in our book, The Office BFFs, were taken with my black and white disposable camera. Oh, yeah. I bought a disposable camera, but just black and white film. I thought it'd be so cool. And I took all these pictures and then I took it to the kiosk in the mall.

and got my photos. And they're in the book. I'm pretty sure all my photos from the pilot that we put in the book were also a disposable camera. That was like how we did it. I know. It's crazy to think about. When we did our book, I found all these pictures, as did Jenna, and I found like the little disc they would give you. Yeah, they'd put it on a CD-ROM. Yeah, and I found those. I had to go buy a thing. So it could

I had to connect it to my computer so I could look at the pictures. Jenna bought the thing, and then we kept sharing it back and forth. She'd drop it off to me. I'd bring it to her. And then eventually my husband was like, should I just buy you? It's $12.99, ladies. I think you can each have one. I finally got one. Well, for those of you keeping track of the D'Angelo romance, Angela snags Dwight right before he leaves and says, hey, my place tonight, wear this.

Don't forget your pipe. Yeah, she's liking this whole new look. And then she gets out her procreation punch card. Yeah, Dwight's like, do you have your card? Yeah. So baby making on the way here. What punch is this? Is this punch two? She used one punch for down in the warehouse. I think this is punch two. Yeah. And then, well, next week in Andy's play, you'll see what happens. Oh, boy. Punch three?

No. Oh. Save it for next week, lady. You've already watched it. I haven't watched it because of my summer cold. I'm behind. It's a fun one. Well, back in the break room, Toby and Michael are playing Connect Four. What did it cost us to use Connect Four? Do we have deets? Oh, well, Randy didn't tell me the cost, but he said they gave us permission to use the game.

provided we didn't throw the game at Toby or show it being knocked off the table. Okay. But then it was fine. All right. So, yes. Well, Connect Four is working. Michael is sharing. Toby is like, oh my gosh, it's happening. Yeah, he's sharing all about Jeff.

This breakthrough moment where Michael says that his stepdad, Jeff, respected the manager. Yeah. Michael's a manager. Michael's a manager. Still trying to get Jeff's favor. Aw. We got mail lady from Vicki S. in Gulfport, Mississippi, who said, I have been a children's therapist since 1995, and I think Toby did an excellent job utilizing games as a tool to get Michael to talk. Great job, writers.

And Laura L. from Kansas City, Missouri said, I'm a social worker and sometimes therapist, and this episode has been used in trainings. This episode? Yes, to demonstrate the therapeutic power of play. Wow. Toby knows his skills. I would have never imagined that this episode is a training video.

They move on from Connect Four to playing cards. And Michael's going to share a story about his dog running away and how he wouldn't go back to the park where the dog ran away because he was afraid he would see his dog there with someone else. Yes. Playing with another kid. And Toby says, it's very important for you to be liked, isn't it? And Michael's like, oh, no. He escalates so quickly. Like, he just goes.

He's so mad that Toby got him to be vulnerable. Yeah, he gives him the finger and he walks out. Yeah. Guess what? Standards and practices. Stepping in. We had to blur the double bird. Here were their exact words. It's my new favorite thing. Is this from Randy? Yep. Quote, please blur Michael's hands as he flips the bird. In parentheses.

U to Toby during the counseling session. I like how they had to spell it out in case we thought it was another bird. Maybe there's a random bird. No, no, it's the F you bird. And lady, I have one more piece of mail from Stephanie Ellen St. Louis talking about Toby's therapy.

Stephanie said, I am a therapist. And while the inconsistencies with professional ethics don't bug me, I do need to point them out. Okay. In this episode. Number one.

Toby would need to be licensed in Pennsylvania, which would typically require him to actively be practicing over the years. It's not enough just to have a diploma. Okay. Okay. Number two, there is a major conflict of interest in having Toby be Michael's counselor because you're not allowed to have a dual relationship with a client. So ethically, he should have referred Michael to someone else. Although, Stephanie points out, that would not be nearly as funny.

True, Stephanie. Yeah. True. Number three, I work with kids and teens doing trauma therapy at a children's advocacy center. And the game strategy that Toby uses is something I do all the time when there's a kid who doesn't want to be at counseling. Uno is literally a lifesaver. Aw. So that's the part that we got right.

Well, Pam is going to start putting her plan in motion. She goes up to Gabe. This made me sweat. This scene made me sweat. I was like, oh, my God, Pam. Oh, my God. She goes, you know what? We haven't been paid yet. I'm not blaming you. I'm not blaming anyone. I'm sure it just got lost in the paperwork.

Gabe is so relieved that Pam isn't upset with him. And he's like, you know what? Will you get the department head signatures so we can really get the ball rolling here? Yes. And Pam explains that this office has a lot of one-person departments. So there are a lot of department heads. Which I didn't realize. I didn't realize Meredith was the head of a department. Yeah. Isn't she the head of, like, quality control or something? Isn't it just her and Creed?

I don't know. I wasn't sure. But first she goes in and gets Michael's signature. He is still upset about his counseling. He doesn't look at the form. He doesn't ask her any questions. Then she's going to go over to Meredith. What are you doing in this scene? It looks like you're, I don't know what you're doing. A dance move? You're kind of, what is this? Yes, we got questions about this.

Abby S. from Atlanta, Georgia would also like to know, what the hell is Pam saying or doing with Meredith? Larissa W. from Littleton, Colorado says, did I have scripted lines or was I improvising? Because it's, you know, voiceover. Yeah. With a talking head. Here's what it said in the script. B-roll.

Pam makes ribald humping gesture by Meredith Stesk. I thought it was a humping gesture, but I didn't want to throw that out there in case this was some dance move I didn't know. Well, first of all, when I read the stage direction, I had to look up the definition of ribald. And it means referring to a sexual matter in an amusingly coarse or irreverent way. A synonym is body. And I'll have you know, standards and practices...

When they read the script, they had something to say about this gesture. Please tell me what they said. They said, quote, Please use your discretion staging the scene where Pam makes a, quote, ribald humping gesture. It should play as funny, not explicit.

Man, Pam is working it. She knows what's going to work with each person. She really does. It says at Angela's desk, Pam points to various cat pictures and rearranges them more nicely on her desk, lighting Angela up, who signs as she talks. Then Pam is going to go into Daryl's office, and he's very interested in her new position because he might like to have corkboard all over his office because it's something that he saw that Kate Walsh has done to her home office. He saw it on TV.

This got me so tickled. You guys know Kate Walsh is one of my good, good pals. We go way back to our improv days. Jenna, you know, you even improv with us one time. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, my God. We drug you into one of our improv shows. But you guys might also know her as Addison from Grey's Anatomy, plus a gazillion other things she's done.

So when I saw Daryl mention her, I was like, oh my God. So I called Kate and I said, Kate, did you know you're mentioned in this office episode by Daryl? And she was like, no, I had no idea. And I said, yeah, I mean, Daryl in the episode says he saw your home office and it's covered in corkboard. What do you have to say about that? And here's what she had to say. Hi.

Hi, this is Kate Walsh. I have never had a home office covered in corkboard, but now I'm wondering why I haven't. That sounds delightful. I do love a pin board. I love her so much. Thanks, Kate.

Well, I spotted something in Daryl's office. It's not corkboard, but at 16 minutes and 53 seconds, there's a blue football helmet with a white paw print hanging on his like coat rack thing. Yeah, I saw it too. It's the Valley View High School Cougars football helmet. And I just thought that was an amazing detail. And that's where Pam went to high school. And I guess Daryl did too and played football? With Roy, probably. Maybe so. Well, full Pam might be in trouble.

Oh, no. Because Gabe said he's gone through three years worth of information and can't find anything about Pam being the office administrator. He says he doesn't want to accuse her of anything. So maybe she could just admit. Pam's like, admit what? Pam realizes that Gabe is so afraid of confrontation that he will not accuse her of being a liar or making it up.

He won't do it. He won't do it. And then he folds. And Pam says, let me know if you need a new chair or anything that an office administrator can handle. And Gabe says, can I get one of those nameplates that says Gabe Lewis? Pam says, sure. Anything else? He says, nope. And that's it. She's an office administrator. It's done.

Pam has a talking head where she says the first lesson of watching World Poker Tour at 2 a.m., you play the opponent, not the cards. Lady, we got a fan question from Natalie F. in San Antonio, Texas, who would like to know, what do you guys think about the way Pam gets her promotion? The first time I watched it, I was excited for her, but in re-watching it, I was kind of bothered by her dishonesty.

What do we think? I mean, Natalie, it's a little layered, right? Because I'm so happy Pam finally was an advocate for herself and made something happen. Natalie, I lied all the time when I was an up-and-coming actress. If I had an audition, I lied and said I had a dental appointment.

It was just easier. To get out of work. Yeah. Well, you guys know how I got my internship on Conan O'Brien. That's what I was going to say. You shared that. You totally just lied your way into it. I just kept calling and saying, yeah, I just booked someone. They said I'm hired. I know. I guess it begs the question, like, when is it unethical and when is it ambition? Hmm.

When is it to be admired and when is it to be faulted? Yeah, I think it's layered, Natalie. I'm happy for her in this moment. I bet Mike Schur's book, How to Be Perfect, would tell us the moral answer to this question. Yes. Perhaps we should ask him. Did Pam getting this position benefit everyone else in the office? Were their lives made better?

So is lying okay if you make other people's lives better? See, that's complicated. It's very complicated. And also, you know, people were really liking this moment at first of Pam, but as we get into some of the things she's going to do as office administrator...

People turned on her. Yeah. We'll discuss it. And when I say people, I mean fans turned on the storyline because Pam starts kind of using her power in ways that maybe are not appropriate. People didn't care for it. Natalie, great question. Lady, let's go to the mall because Jim and Andy have brought Dwight to Precious Heirlooms to confront the salesperson. To get his revenge.

But the salesperson recognizes Dwight. He's like, oh, I remember you. Yes, you were here yesterday. We took a picture. We were worried. You had bloodstains on your hands and you were wearing overalls. And Jim is like, what? Yes, there we see why they denied Dwight entry. He, his hands, they're all red. They're on the glass.

of precious heirlooms. But Dwight is still gonna try to have his pretty woman moment. He is. He still wants to go pretty woman on their ass. And I have the question for you. I'm titling this, Who Did It Best? Julia? Hi. Hello. Do you remember me? No, I'm sorry. I was in here yesterday. You wouldn't wait on me? Oh. You work on commission, right? Uh, yes.

Big mistake. Big. Huge. I have to go shopping now. Or Dwight. When I came to your finest... You are... I'm gonna... Okay. You can't treat me. Thank you. Good morning, sir. You made a big mistake. Huge. There it is. I mean, Dwight just keeps... He's like this robot that's malfunctioning. He's like, good morning, good day, sir. Hello. Top of the morning. What? How dare you? Yes. He's like...

Well, lady, I have got another guest star alert. Eric Zuckerman played the salesperson. And I've got an interesting bit of trivia on Eric because he falls into my other favorite category that I mentioned.

He has not only played two different characters in two different episodes of Law & Order, he's also done it on Law & Order Criminal Intent. Multiple characters across the franchise. Yes. He's also had recurring roles on Revenge and Orange is the New Black. I also have a bag breakdown episode.

Dwight's bags? Yeah, all of his shopping bags. One of them is a Steamtown Mall bag, and the other is from a store called La Tidah. Have we featured La Tidah before? I'm not sure, but they're a real store in the Steamtown Mall. They were there from the day it opened until it closed in 2019. What did La Tidah sell? They sold, like, fancy trinkets and nice items for your house, for giving gifts.

Dwight is on a fancy shopping spree. He certainly is. If he's shopping at La-T-Da, that should tell precious heirlooms something. Before he leaves, he's going to go ahead and buy the wizard.

Yeah. And Jim is like, Dwight. I know. But he buys the wizard. This scene would have continued, Jenna. They would have left the store. And as they're leaving, Dwight smashes the wizard statue. And Jim and Andy are like, what are you doing? And he pries the crystal out of the wizard's hand. And he's like, you think I was here for this wizard? It's the crystal. Why do

I remember that scene. I wasn't there when they shot it. Is it just like one of those moments when something was so funny to me at a table read that I've never forgotten it? Yeah. Because I remember that. Dwight had it out for the wizard and stole his crystal. I wish we would have kept that in. It's in the deleted scenes on the DVD. It's really funny. I guess we should talk about what happened between Michael and Toby after their...

session ended so abruptly with the double bird. Yeah, Toby just gives Michael the forms and is like, you fill them out. Say you completed the counseling. Turn them in. I don't care. He's done with it. But I guess Michael accidentally checked off severe. He didn't read the forms. Yeah, he said that he was severe in all categories. And Gabe is like, wow, is this really how you feel about Michael after your counseling? And Toby's like, yeah.

Guess what? This is going to lead to more counseling. Yeah. Michael is so mad. But Toby has an idea. He says, you know what? Just forget it. Just forget it.

Get out your notebook. We'll just do some drawings. We'll just kill the time. Oh, I want you to know, I wish I had kept this prop. Me too. I wish I had it in a frame. Michael draws Dwight and Angela. Angela's taller than Dwight in the drawing. I wish I had this picture. I can't believe Toby is still...

trying to counsel Michael. He's like, wow, Angela's taller than Dwight. I wonder why you drew it that way. Yeah. Is that how it seems to you? Like, Toby! Toby, stop! Oh my goodness. But the whole episode ends with a Ryan talking head. Yes, it does. It's one of the talking heads that would have been this runner of everyone in the bullpen commenting on Michael's counseling. But here's the thing.

Is it a talking head or is it a series of talking heads? We had a fan question from Joshua P. in Cincinnati and many others who would like to know...

When Ryan lists off all of these various thoughts on therapy and then at the end says, I don't know, just use the best one, were those scripted or were they candy bag alts and then they just stitched them together as one joke? I really appreciate this fan question, Angela, because remember in Niagara, they had a bunch of candy bag alts for Dwight about his like meat business? Yes.

Yes, and they made them all one. Yes. By accident. Yes. And they didn't catch it until editing. So what happened here? I want you to know, I went to the shooting draft and this is one complete talking head. It's not a bunch of candy bag alts. It's one talking head. BJ read it as scripted. And the last line of this talking head is, I don't know, just use the best one.

Because Ryan is now savvy with the camera crew, right? He is. He knows they're going to edit. He's, you know, he's going through his suspenders and orange watch phase and his glasses and his fedora hat. He's savvy now. He is. I mean, listen, when we did the lip dub, he knew I'm going to use this as an opportunity to advertise. That's right. For Woof. Mm-hmm.

Well, you guys, that was counseling. I so enjoyed rewatching this. Big thank yous to Randy Cordray, Elise Myers, who you can find at Elise, E-L-Y-S-E underscore M-Y-E-R-S on Instagram. My friend Kate Walsh, who is going to be starring in a new Greg Garcia show called Sprung.

Kate is just amazing. She's just in everything. She's already on Emily in Paris. I know. You can find her on Instagram at Kate, K-A-T-E-W-A-L-S-H.

And my dear friend, Micah, who picked up the phone. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. You can find him on Instagram at Ultramike, U-L-T-R-A-M-I-K-E. I am really liking season seven. Let me just say that. Me too. These are good episodes. You guys, I jumped ahead the other day and I watched Andy's play and sex education. We've got lots to cover, lady. I can't wait. See you next week. See you then.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies. Office Ladies is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fisher, and Angela Kinsey. Our show is executive produced by Cody Fisher. Our producer is Cassie Jerkins. Our sound engineer is Sam Kiefer. And our associate producer is Ainsley Bubico. Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton. For ad-free versions of Office Ladies, go to stitcherpremium.com. For a free one-month trial of Stitcher Premium, use code...

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