Huge week for the group chat
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- It's been a huge week for the group chat. Not one of yours, certainly not one of mine. I'm talking about the Hootie PC Small group chat, of course.

But you've never talked to him before, so how's the number on your phone? I mean, I'm not an expert on any of this, but it's just curious. How's the number on your phone? Well, if you have somebody else's contact and then somehow it gets sucked in. Oh, someone sent you that contact. It gets sucked in. Nobody's texting war plants. As a matter of fact, they even changed the title to attack plants. Now it turns out Judge Boasberg has actually been assigned to another high-profile case, this one surrounding the fallout from the signal messages in the Atlantic article, which we've been talking about all day, right?

Never before has the group chat been subject to this kind of scrutiny, and it's been a great reminder that we have lost our way. On Today Explained, we're going to talk about texting and how we kind of forgot how to do it right. Or maybe we never knew how to do it right in the first place.

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And this is Sean Ramos for him. Here with Max Reed of The Reed, Max Substack. Max has been thinking about group chats for years. In fact, he wrote a piece for New York Magazine way back in 2019 called Group Chats Are Making the Internet Fun Again. And since a certain group chat made the internet fun this week, for at least some, we thought we'd ask Max, did we, this week, at least in the United States, hit peak group chat?

Yeah, I mean, I have to say, you know, as a journalist and as somebody who writes about the future, making predictions, it felt extremely vindicating to go from a kind of trend piece about how me and a bunch of my friends seem to be turning to group chats to revelations that national security operations at the absolute highest and most top secret level were also being conducted on group chats.

Are you in any of those kinds of group chats? I mean, not to the best of my knowledge, but there's a couple group chats where I don't know every single phone number in there. And like maybe Michael Waltz is somehow infiltrated and is just waiting to drop some emoji. It gets sucked in. What kind of group chats are you in, Max? Well, you know, I'm a father and I would say most of my group chats these days are with other parents of similarly aged kids to coordinate things.

play dates or to do the thing where you know it's 3 p.m. on a Sunday and you're going absolutely insane and so you just have to throw a flag up and really hope that some other parent will meet you at the playground I mean a group chat that's almost exclusively about the movie Hunt for Red October is

They're also sometimes about submarines and fighter jets if they appear in the news. Does it have a clever name? It's called Ramius' Boys after Captain Marco Ramius, who is Sean Connery's character in Hunt for Red October. A deep cut for the casual fan of Hunt for Red October. Yeah, exactly.

I'm also in a group chat dedicated to analyzing and reading Ross Douthat columns, the New York Times columnist. What's that one called? It's called Douthat Chat Natalists Only. I want to be clear that's an ironic name. I'm not a political natalist or anything, though I have to admit this is one of two Ross Douthat group chats I'm even aware of. There's another one called The Falcon's Children, which is named after Ross's fantasy series. It sounds like I have a

really disordered relationship to Ross Douthat. I want to be clear, this is very common for millennials to have group chats about Ross Douthat. Does he know about them? I hope not. I hope someone sends this to him. Great. I'm also in a group chat with three former co-workers called the executive team, where we just pretend to be hustle-minded entrepreneurs and send each other motivational memes and quotes. And

And I find this group a little upsetting because I know the other three members of this group are in a group called the Giggle Kids that I'm not allowed to be in. So, you know, this is an example of the kind of social friction that group chats can create. That's tough. I've never been in the case where I found out about a group chat that like all my friends were in that I'm not in, but presumably they exist. I think every group chat has an equal number of group chats. That is everybody in the group chat except for one person. Oof.

What I think was special about this week is whether you have 40 different group chats on your phone or if you just have one called like family chat where you text with your parents or your kids. This week, it was clear that everyone has a lot of group chats going on. So many, perhaps, that they can't even keep track of who's in them. That this week became universal. How did we get here? It's a good question.

So for most of, I would say, the history of the kind of social internet that we all grew up on, starting with Facebook and before it, MySpace, most of the social networks and a lot of what you would do socially online was organized around the term of art as a social graph. It was organized on networks of connections that you made in real life.

And you maintained a profile where you also had all those other connections. And you would post things, say, to a feed, a la Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, that would usually reach all of those people equally. Which meant, you know, early on, I think that was sort of fun and new and strange to be, you know, posting photographs that your co-workers and your family and your close friends and your old college friends might all see. But...

Over the years, it also became clear that this came with some unpredictable externalities, let's say. That there was a lot of things that you might say to coworkers or to friends or to your family that you wouldn't want to say to one of those other groups.

And we began to sort of experience a phenomenon that the academic Dana Boyd called context collapse, where the different contexts where you might interact with a bunch of different people are eliminated. And all of a sudden, you find yourself in hot water, say, for putting something on Facebook that was really meant for your friends, the kind of thing you would say, like, if you're out, you know, on a night on the town with your friends.

and then your aunt and your uncle and your grandparents and your parents all see it, and you realize that actually maybe this was not something that you wanted them to see. This sort of slow motion realization of the reality of context collapse is happening at the same time that

Facebook and a bunch of other big tech companies are doing a lot of, I guess I would call it soul searching about their role in the 2016 election, in Brexit, in the general kind of populist backlash of the mid 2010s. So you have what was kind of termed at the time, the tech lash, you know, and there was a lot of writing and criticism, you know, all the tech CEOs had to go up in front of Congress and defend themselves.

Senator, we run ads. I see. Everybody was really down on Facebook, Facebook in particular, but in general on all of these companies. And I think you saw at that moment both a sort of bottom up and a top down move to take a lot of the social interaction that had previously been happening on public platforms like Facebook or Instagram or Twitter and move it into private group chats. It feels like at some point the group chats got a

a little overwhelming. Is that the case for you with all these parenting group chats where there's just a new one? Oh, there's a new one for this birthday party and there's a new one for, I don't know, this school event. And then also while that one's blowing up, there's something going on with your family chain and there's something going on with your hug for Red October chain.

Yeah, it is. I mean, I am a writer who works from home, which means I'm always looking for reasons to procrastinate and not do my work. So I my full time job is keeping up on group chats. But my wife, with whom I'm in a bunch of these chats, has a real job and works quite hard at it and constantly says she comes back.

to like 60, 70 unread messages. And she's like, this is too overwhelming. I just can't. I'm not going to read all these messages. I'm not going to reply. And I think that's probably true for a lot of people. I think if you made the mistake of marrying someone whose job is computer all the time. Everything's computer. Then probably you're even worse at it. And when did that happen? Was that like the pandemic when we just decided we'd be like,

type it away all day. I don't really know when it happened, but it happened and it felt like we weren't properly prepared for it.

Yeah, I think it's hard not to notice that the increase, at least the perceived increase in the amount of time we spend in group chats, the amount of messages we send in group chats seem to happen during a time when most of us, many of us were trapped inside our houses or at the very least sort of trapped inside our cities. We weren't visiting friends who lived far away. We were sort of desperate for socializing with people and group chats were a really easy to hand way of

Yeah. And then, of course, this week...

One of those group chats somehow became the biggest story in the United States. I mean, we probably aren't at any danger, we common plebs, of being added to a national security group chat anytime soon. But it did feel like something about this story clicked for a lot of people because there was something innately relevant

just normal and dumb and human and relatable about it. Oh, totally. I mean, I think about it compared with some of the other scandals about national security secrets, like improper classification and improper leakage, thinking about various security documents that ended up at Mar-a-Lago or in Joe Biden's garage or sort of infamously the Hillary Clinton email scandal. ♪

And none of the rest of us, very few of the rest of us at least, have access to like reams of classified information that we might ever have in a box and put in a storage unit. Whereas mistakenly adding someone to a group chat who you didn't mean to, or finding yourself in a group chat where people don't realize that you're in there, that's something that can happen to anybody. There's a much clearer narrative about exactly the screw up here that doesn't require you to kind of

place yourself in the position of a president or whatever. You know, they could have been planning a surprise birthday party and accidentally added somebody who, the subject of the birthday, or just somebody who wasn't related at all who now can see all of it.

maxreid.substack.com The group chats didn't come with a how-to manual, but clearly people need one. So, the do's and don'ts of texting in the year of our Lord 2025, next up on the show of our Lord, Today Explained.

Thank you.

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Today Explained! I am Tatum Hunter and I am an internet culture reporter at the Washington Post.

And you are brave enough to tell people how to text. Well, I think that our lives play out increasingly online. Today, when you say something like internet culture, that's just culture a lot of the time, right? You talk about texting etiquette. Like, yeah, that's just how we communicate. So I'm super into etiquette because I report on how the internet trickles down into our lives and changes our relationships. And this is contentious for people, how to behave in a group chat on a text thread. ♪

- Welcome back ladies. Today I really wanted to talk to you about the do's and don'ts of texting. - This is how to text the guy that you like. First thing you're gonna do is get rid of this idea that you can't text him first. - If you text me longer than five sentences, that is now a phone call. - If you send really long text messages, if you multi, multi, multi text, all of those

tend to be low-value needy behaviors. If you're tired of having dry texting conversations, we all are. Let's fix that, okay?

Should we start with the do's or should we start with the don'ts? Let's start with the don'ts because I think that's spicier for people. Okay, great. Let's go. For the haters, we'll start with the don'ts. Do you have a list? How do you want to get into this? I absolutely have a list. Okay, maybe like three big don'ts. All right. One don't is don't use group texts for something that they weren't created for.

- Who is texting me at 3:00 AM? - Random question flies in the chat. Hey man, if you run out of butter, what else can I put in a pan? What? Why am I in this group chat? - If everybody has that group text from a bachelorette party in like 2018, that people will still pop into to like share photos of their kids or ask questions about, you know, that need, those have to die once you're done with the reason that you created them. So if you have a group chat with your parents because you're related,

That can keep going forever because you'll always be related. But if you have a group chat to plan a project or a trip or do introductions, that needs to be laid to rest once that planning is over. Another don't is don't get all offended when people have a different texting style than you. Oh. I see this come up.

I write for an audience that's a little bit older. And people get really ruffled when people don't use, for example, like proper capitalization, punctuation. - No way! - Revolution against punctuation. Yeah, apparently the younger generation, the Gen Zs and millennials, don't trust the punctuation mark, period. - Like, I don't know how to end this sentence. Is it a period? Is it an emoji? Or is it like, sometimes I'll just do like,

another exclamation point or like maybe I just leave it with no punctuation or no emoji. And then you can flip the script and you'll see younger folks getting frustrated and making fun of the way their boss is their relatives text when they're spelling things out, using ridiculous acronyms, using the Gen Z, sorry, the Gen X ellipsis where you're like not sure if they're mad at you because they are putting ellipses into text messages where they don't belong. Like every generation has its quirks with the way that it is typing out messages. And I think we're past the point where we're going to argue about like

should we be spelling everything right? You know, should this be, should this be formal? Should this be informal? You have to let everyone live. Number three, you said you had three big ones. Ooh, okay. Oh my gosh. I have so many don'ts. I have more don'ts than I have do's. And I guess that's, I guess that's what etiquette is. If we all did everything right, we wouldn't need it. But don't, don't be a wet blanket.

Obviously, texting is going to be shorter, drier than sending a voice note, than having a phone call. But you want to be matching people's energy, especially if you use texting to stay in touch, to share something about your life, if you're using it like a conversation. Don't be that guy who's sending okay or thumbs up. Lots of people see the thumbs up emoji as being passive aggressive. Really? React to my messages like, you know what, I saw your message, but you're not even worth me typing out a f***.

It's like a stab in the abdomen to me. What the hell was that? Can I tell you about one of my pet peeves when it comes to this particular don't? Yes. Is when you send someone you love something great you saw online, an article, a meme, a joke, a photo, and they go, seen it.

I'm like, if you saw it, then why didn't you send it to me? Or if you saw it, just like give me the reaction you had when you saw it. Seeing it is not useful to me. I don't care that you planted your flag on this meme before I did. Also, the goal was a discussion. Like imagine if you were with somebody and you were like, hey, you know, I just saw a news story about the, you know, about these high level government people leaking their signal chat. And someone was like, heard it.

You're like, no, I get that. It's news. I want to talk about it. I feel like memes are kind of the same. Yes, and. Yes, and. We've done our rants. Should we talk about some do's or do you have some more don'ts you really want to get off your chest? Oh, man. Oh, man. Okay. I have one more don't. I actually need to hate more than I thought I did, which is no scary mysteries. Don't send a text like, hey, can we talk?

Oh, I hate that too. My parents do that. Oh, don't send a text. My mom does. Call me. Call me as soon as you can. And it's like, I call her. It's like, hey, so do you want to eat tacos or? Literally. My mom, same. Where the urgency is just not matched to the content. Yeah. No scary mysteries allowed. You should say why you're reaching out. Okay. We've done a lot of don't. Let's do a little do.

Yes. Okay, one really nice thing to do when you're texting is to tell people what you want from them. Maybe one person wants to be in touch a lot and the other doesn't. Maybe one person wants to talk about more serious, heavy emotional stuff over the text and the other person is really uncomfortable with that. But exactly like your in-person relationships, people can't read your mind and you have to tell them what you want.

So maybe that looks something like, I want to be in touch every day. I want to hear how your day was. Or, hey, on weekdays, this is exhausting for me. Can we just, like, have a big old phone call on Saturdays? Whatever. You know what you're reminding me of is, like, the voice memos, or as I call them sometimes when I get them from Noelle King, my co-host, voice memoirs. Okay, I have started this message three times, and this is the fourth. Which...

you know, can be really short and punchy and hilarious. I'm going to vent for two minutes because I've been very positive lately and I feel like I have the right to complain to you for two minutes. In Noelle's case, I've never not loved one. But sometimes they're like eight minutes long, not from Noelle, but from other people. And you're just like, this is like work now. You just sent me a whole podcast. I have to add to my queue. Like maybe we should establish at some point in the texting whether we want those or not, maybe? Yeah.

Absolutely. And again, just like any other thing in your friendships and relationships, it might require some compromise. So maybe for the person who's less texty, that means you're shooting an emoji, a thumbs up, a one sentence thing saying saw it, care about you, I'll get back to this.

Right? That's a nice compromise. Or maybe if you're the person who, you know, tends to get offended by this, you draw some boundary. You're like, hey, if you can't respond to me on time, maybe we should stick to phone calls. Right? Like, it's not embarrassing, I think, to talk about your texting life as if it matters because it does. I like that. I like that. Be bold. Okay. Any more do's that you really want to, you know, share with the people out there? I would say do like...

Stay grounded in reality. Remember the world we live in and remember that if you're in a, you know, encrypted signal chat, if you're in your private iMessage group with your best friends, that doesn't mean that you have carte blanche to say stuff that you would never want the world to see. We've seen again and again and again how screenshots of messages, it's not sacred, it can get out, it can get shared with the person you're talking about. In this chat, there was a moment where J.D. Vance questioned...

POTUS's judgment about this Houthi bombing. Vance said the plan was a mistake and was inconsistent with Trump's message. There was

some analysis and chattering after those screenshots leaked from the Signal chat about, you know, how Vance had signaled that he might have a different opinion than Trump on a matter of foreign policy. Now he has to show up to work and be like, you know, "Hi, Donald." It's that Trump is a really bad candidate and frankly, I think a really bad person. So it's important to remember that nothing is private, nothing is sacred once you have written it in a text.

And of course, we're going to see where, you know, the blowback for this group chat getting out ends up with someone losing their job, with a federal inquiry. Who knows? What's clear is it won't soon be forgotten. And the amount of tension on group chats has led us all maybe to like think a little bit more about how we communicate with our friends, with our colleagues, with our family members.

Do you think it's for the best that we all had a moment to just reflect on the group chat? You know what? There's an optimist inside of me who likes to believe that this will be good for society, that we're all reflecting on the group chat.

the group chat. However, now I've lived too long, right? So like, you know, Bezos' text leak, we're like, oh man, we'll never forget this. Biden leaves his Venmo public. Come on, man. Vance leaves his blog public. And, you know, we're finding, we're looking at Venmo transactions from Matt Gaetz. And most recently we saw that Mike Waltz

of Signal Chat fame left his Venmo friends list public. It gets sucked in. And, you know, people find it and they analyze it. And it happens again and again and again to politicians, to celebrities, to CEOs. So now I'm like starting to lose faith. It's like how many high profile, embarrassing instances of our digital footprints getting out of our own control will it take before we, everybody pumps the brakes? Because

it's a hard learned lesson to just kind of remember that digital stuff is forever, even in the safest of places.

I have to say, in light of this week's news, Tatum, we are skipping a huge don't, which is don't add people to a group chat against their will. I need to add another bullet point to this guide and say don't add the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic to the group chats where you're gossiping. Because there was some gossip happening. They were gossiping about Europe. They hate her.

Tatum Hunter, you can read more do's and don'ts from her for you at WAPO.com. Avishai Artsy and Gabrielle Burbey made our show today from California. Joey Myers edited, Laura Bullard fact-checked, Andrea Christen's daughter mixed it. You heard from Noelle King earlier. The rest of us are Harima Wagdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Peter Balanon-Rosen, Victoria Chamberlain, Devin Schwartz, Patrick Boyd, Carla Javier,

Miles Bryan, and Travis Larchuk, who's leaving us today, but maybe he'll be back one day. What do you say, Travis? Amina Alsadi is our supervising editor. Miranda Kennedy is our executive producer. We use music by Breakmaster Sildren. This week we used some by Francesca Ramsey, too. If you don't know Francesca, you should. You can find her singing about leopards eating her face on the gram at Chesca Lee. That's L-E-I-G-H.

Today Explained is distributed by WNYC. The show is part of Vox. Support our journalism by joining our membership program today, if you don't mind. Go to vox.com slash members to sign up, if you don't mind. And if you don't mind, we now have a Sunday show. Maybe you've noticed it comes out on Sundays. The Today Explained feed, the one that you're in right now, it's called Explain It To Me, Listen.

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