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Hello everybody, welcome back to the show. My guest today is Connor Beaton. He's a men's life coach, founder of Mantalks, and an author focusing on men's wellness and personal growth. Attachment styles are the hot new idea to understand how we relate and connect to others. Today we get a great overview of the entire field, including an understanding of the limitations of attachment theory and some practical insights on how to improve yours.
Expect to learn how to identify what your attachment style is, where the core of attachment comes from, which attachment style suits you most and what sort of partner you should be looking for, how to move out of an anxious attachment style, how to cope with someone who is dysregulated in their attachment, evidence-based suggestions to improve attachment, and much more.
I really wanted a big 30,000-foot overview, cutting through all of the BS, explaining what attachment is, helping us to understand it, and giving some practical tips that you can move forward with. This is exactly the episode that I wanted to get out of Conor. He has worked with thousands of men one-on-one. His wife is one of the leading marriage and family therapists in the world.
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What is attachment theory? How do you describe it to someone that's never heard of it before? Yeah, I mean, the definition of attachment theory is that it is a psychological and evolutionary theory concerning relationships between humans. So it's basically the theory of relationships between people, essentially. And the sort of most important part of it is that
young children as young children we need to develop a relationship with a primary caregiver and that that is one of the foundational tenants to us operating as a normal human being in the world as adults right there are a lot of different attachment frameworks a bunch of people that have written books lots of talk about it now i think it's kind of starting to become a meme of its own
and lots of people are probably using it and misusing it and abusing it in bad ways. What's the best attachment framework that you like to focus on? What are the things that people kind of need to know as the fundamentals of this?
The godfather of attachment is John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. They're really the first two people that really created the structure of what we know today to be attachment theory. There's a great book called Attached, which has gained a lot of mainstream popularity. And I do think that it's kind of been...
hijacked by the tiktokers and instagrammers of the world to like gripe about their exes you know and it's become the the like end-all be-all of relational problems and you can use some of these terms and label people and pathologize them and put them into neat little boxes to say you see this is why the relationship ended it wasn't me they were just avoidant or they were just anxious but
Yeah, I mean the main people are John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. And, you know, this is John Bowlby really started the work back in the 50s. Mary Ainsworth continued it on. She really created the labels that we know today to be anxious and avoidant. A lot of the research was interesting because it would watch children. And you can tell around two to three to five in that age range,
how a child responds
to a parent leaving and returning where their, where their attachment style rests. And, you know, for example, if you have a kid that, um, uh, you know, a kid and a parent, the parent walks out of the room and goes away for five minutes and then walks back in. And that kid is, is pretty much just ignores that their parent has left and come back in. That's a good signal that they're a little bit avoidant or, you know, if as soon as the kid breaks away from the mom or the dad, uh, that,
that child becomes sort of crying and ornery and they're pretty upset, that's a good sign that they're anxious. But ideally we want to have a secure, healthy relationship with one primary caregiver as a child, because what a lot of the research has shown is that this will go on to form the behavioral patterns and the ways in which that we engage with people as adults.
And so the reason why I think that attachment has gained a lot of mainstream popularity is that it does talk about a lot of the relationship issues and garbage that we see in modern day relationships where people are ghosting and peacing out or love bombing and turning into stage five clingers. And so it does explain a lot of that behavior.
Has this been shown, uh, in fMRIs of any kind? Is there a, a neurological, uh, sort of basis of this? Could you show me 50 people that self ID as anxious 50 people that self ID as avoidant and look at their brains? Have you got any idea how, how this sort of manifests? Yeah, I'm, I'm not a hundred percent sure about that. I would imagine that, um,
That what you would see, if I just had to sort of speculate for a moment, is what you would see is that the anxious centers of the brain would light up within an anxious attachment. But the interesting thing is that the misconception about avoidance is that they don't care about relationships. Avoidance are also very afraid of
So there's actually a lot of fear. So you'd probably see similar things between the two structures of the brain between an anxious and an avoidant because an avoidant person is afraid of connection and intimacy, whereas an anxious person is afraid of not having that connection and intimacy. And so it's still a fear and anxiety response within both of them.
So you probably see that underneath an fMRI, but I'm not 100% sure if people have dug into that. Do you have some study? I don't know. I don't, but I would love to see it. I think attachment theory is sufficiently new that people are probably not quite getting into it from a neuroscience perspective. One of the other things, I want to get into anxious, avoidance, secure strategies, diagnoses, causes, all that stuff. Before we even get into that, can you just try and think, postulate for me,
what the adaptive reason would be ancestrally for using the first two to five years. And then presumably it continues to kind of imprint on you as you, as you grow up. Um, why would that, uh, create a signature way that you see the world growing up into adulthood? Why would that be a useful mechanism for humans to have?
Yeah, well, interesting. So, you know, in the first few years, developmentally, there's, there's a couple things that are happening that are absolutely crucial, as your brain is wiring, right. And we have to remember that, you know, before two or three years old, you're nonverbal. And so
Everything that's happening to you, everything that's happening around you is happening in a nonverbal fashion. So your brain is coding that information, your body is feeling that information, and it's all sensory based, it's all felt based.
And so what's happening early on in life is you're starting to discern whether or not your environment is safe, whether or not your world is okay. And that's an evolutionary component, right? You're developing this sense of, am I okay? Is my world okay? Am I safe? Is it safe to trust people? And that's largely happening now.
in proximity to the relationship that you have with your mother. Like a lot of the research that's out there shows that an infant's nervous system experiences the world through its mother's nervous system.
And those two things are largely interconnected. Is that what co-regulation is? That is what co-regulation is, is that in some ways what co-regulation is, is that you, you know, so for example, if I'm working with a client and he's got a lot of anxiety or he's going, he's processing some trauma and he's, you know, got lots of rage or something like that, it doesn't help him for me to join him in the anxiety and the rage, right?
really good therapeutic process is that you can go through your experience of that trauma, of that abandonment issue, of that neglect,
with somebody who's grounded and regulated so that you can go through the hardship of experiencing that internal state that maybe has never had an expression. And then you can come out the other side and reconnect and be in relationship with somebody who is regulated and allow your nervous system to come back down to a much healthier baseline. So, you know, I think in the, we've gotten away from your question, but in the first few years,
of life, it serves an infant to learn relationship through proximity of caretakers, plain and simple. And we're social beings, we're wired to be social.
And so the first couple of years is paramount for us to kind of understand that infants in some way, shape or form are learning how to be in relationship with other human beings based off of their primary caretakers. I'm wondering whether or not
Why would this be adaptive? Why would this be a mechanism that would be useful? Why is it that, you know, by age 12 or 14, ancestrally, we probably weren't that dependent, especially as a male, probably weren't that dependent on our family really at all, except for maybe our extended family. And then by age 16, 18, we're probably what they're dependent on. So I'm trying to think...
Okay, so why would it be the case that there's this imprinting that happened so early on that sustains throughout adulthood? One thing that I could think of is that if you were born into a particular time,
of strife, uncertainty, maybe there's war with a local tribe, maybe food is scarce and resources are scarce, maybe there's a famine, maybe you're born into a particular family which is lower in status, maybe you don't have as much access and that kind of is the same as being at war or being in a time of strife but it's a microcosm as opposed to sort of a macrocosm of this.
What that would mean is as you grow up, as you get older, it's probably going to be advantageous for you to be more vigilant. It's probably going to be advantageous for you to maybe not trust people as much. So I'm wondering whether it's kind of like a very early warning system, like a weather report of this is what...
typically on average you might expect as you grow up and your body is going to predispose you to behave in a manner that you have been alerted to very very early on because on average most people that had a disrupted uncertain anxious or avoidant childhood grew up to be in adult situations that were also similar to that and that is why this behavior is sort of predisposed
Yeah, I mean, in essence, if we were just condense it down, it's that these your primary relationships as a child set the tone for what your nervous system, body and mind can expect from relationships moving forward. And so the evolutionary advantage of that is that you have a baseline of what's trustworthy and safe and what's not.
And so if we have this foundation of here's what's safe and here's what you can trust, that's a secure attachment, then your body and your mind are much more attuned to the data and the information of what is unsafe and what is not trustworthy. And so you start to pick up on the social cues
of relationships that are non-functional, that are dysfunctional. And ideally you do that by having had an upbringing where there was some type of secure, healthy attachment so that you have this homeostasis, this line, this like baseline that you can always return to, right? Kind of like an instinct or an intuition that lives in your body that says,
This is safe and this is not. And what ends up happening is that we have all these minor and more acute interruptions to our attachments. And sometimes for some people, they have much larger interruptions, right? Trauma, losing a parent very early on, abuse, abandonment, etc.,
that skews their capacity to gauge whether or not a relationship is safe and trustworthy, just in a very basic foundational way. And this is where you get a lot of like commitment issues happening and not able to discern whether or not somebody can be trusted. And so you get into relationships with people that are an absolute shit show because that's what your body acclimatized early on. But that's the evolutionary advantage is that you have an imprint
of the social cues, the relational cues of what is a safe and trustworthy relationship. Because if you can do that, then you can build much more of those safe, trustworthy relationships, which are going to serve you, right? If you're surrounded by a bunch of dysfunctional, I was gonna say dysfunctional pricks, but if you're surrounded by a bunch of dysfunctional people,
who you can't trust, who aren't safe, who are screwing you over, but you can't discern that, you're not gonna get very far in life because you won't have the capacity for social cohesion, you won't have the capacity of collaboration, you won't have the internal capacity of being able to bring a group of people together towards a common good or goal or task, right, which is essentially leadership.
And so it will disrupt a lot of these foundational pillars of what makes a good human being a good human being. So yeah, that's just a little side tangent. Hopefully that digs more into your question. Where do you want to get started? Should we explain how people can work out their attachment style from what they notice in themselves? Or do you want to explain how they work? Yeah, I mean, let's talk about how they're formed. I think let's talk about that. So
Jean Piaget and Bowlby, Jean Piaget is pretty renowned when it comes to developmental psychology. They found that there's some early stages in life and those early stages in life, some pretty important things are happening. And I'm going to refer to somebody throughout this conversation. His name is Dewey Freeman, who's a good colleague and friend, a mentor of mine. He's 74. Imagine if Obi-Wan Kenobi was
a counselor therapist living on the side of a mountain in Colorado who had like never been on the internet before, but had basically just been studying attachment and developmental psychology for 40 plus years. That's him. And so he's created his own model. And so I'll be referring to that because I think it's one of the best that there is. But Jean Piaget and Bowlby found that there's two main phases that happen in development early on in childhood.
The first one is between zero and 18 months where we are trying to discern whether or not our environment is okay, whether or not our external environment is okay. And secondly, between 18 months to three years where we're trying to discern whether or not we are okay as human beings. Are we safe?
Is there something wrong with us? You know, when we drive the truck into the wall, does dad freak out and scream at us? Are we, you know, do they shame us? Do we get criticized for it? Do we get spanked? Like what happens in proximity to our caregivers?
And there's a very simple foundational piece that builds attachment that I love, which is from Dewey Freeman. And he says that attachment is built when we go through a hard time in relationship with somebody and come out the other side okay. Okay, so attachment is built when we go through a hard time and come out the other side okay in relationship with somebody.
And that can look like a bunch of different things, right? Going through a hard thing as a 36 year old or a 27 year old is very different than a two year old or a three year old, right? So when you're little, we had to kind of contextualize what this may have looked like for you as a kid.
So a hard time is you needed food, right? And so you cried and you wanted food and you weren't fed for hours and hours and hours. You needed attention, but instead you were left in your crib for half an hour, an hour, and you're bawling your eyes out.
You crapped yourself. We're just going to put that out there, right? Like you soiled yourself and you needed to be changed, but nobody was attentive to that. Those are needs for an infant. An infant needs food, touch, and movement. Those are the three things that you as a child, every single child will have needed.
And it's just food, touch and movement. And then we have ways of expressing that we need something, right? When you're a kid, you cry, you wiggle, you make noise, you act out, you do all types of stuff to try and get attention to say, hey, I need something. I have a need, I have a want, I have a desire.
And then hopefully that your parent or your caregiver will understand that you need something. And if, you know, if there's parents listening to this, you kind of run the gamut, right? You try a whole bunch of stuff. You check their diaper. They're fine. You try and give them a bottle or some food or some like, what are they like goldfishes or whatever. You go through like a diagnostic checklist. That's right. Diaper isn't full. Doesn't appear to need to be burped. Doesn't appear to need to be, oh, tired, tired. It's the tired one. Right.
Yeah, exactly. So you kind of like go through this list. And by doing that, you are reinforcing when you figure out what the kid actually needs. You're reinforcing to that child, your needs matter, your wants matter, you matter to me, and it's safe for you to express that need. Now that's in an ideal world. Okay, so again, that's a kid going through a hard time, I need something like food or sleep or movement or touch or to be held. caregiver notices that.
And fulfills on it. And then that child learns in that moment sort of like a little brick in the foundation of their attachments. You just imagine your relationship foundation is like little bricks that are made up in these moments. You learn in that moment like, oh, it's safe for me to express myself. My needs matter. I matter.
Now, for kids, what the research shows is that that's happening between 70 to 90 times an hour, right? 70 to 90 times an hour, a kid needs something. They want attention. They want touch. They want movement. They want to play. They want to crawl. The list just goes on and on and on.
So that's a healthy cycle. They express a need, it's a hard time, they get their need met, that creates attachment. It gets disrupted when a kid starts to go through a hard time, but the parent is checked out, right? Maybe they're an addict of some sort and they just are totally not dialed in. Maybe they're a workaholic and they're just on email nonstop or on phone calls and the kid's sort of like on the side.
Maybe the parent or the caregiver gets reactive every time that the child cries or is trying to express that they need something. And so what can happen is when a child is expressing a need or a want and the parent or the caregiver isn't attentive or not meeting that need, the child has two response mechanisms to try and get the attention of the caregiver, which is either rage or shutdown.
So they'll either move to a response of full tantrum or they'll move to a response of F it. This doesn't seem to matter. So I'm just going to shut down. And there's some really interesting experiments that have been done. I'm blanking on the name of the one, but it's where they sit a toddler. I don't know if you've talked about this on your show before, but they sit a toddler in front of the mother.
It's actually kind of heartbreaking to watch. They sit a toddler in front of the mother and they instruct the mother to play with the toddler and interact with it just in the normal way that they would. And you can see the toddler is lighting up and it's, you know, he's engaged and he's looking at her and he's playing. And then they have the mother turn away, face away from the toddler, turn her back to it and turn around and stone face, stonewall the toddler.
And the toddler is two years old and you can see the toddler start to cycle through all of these different tactics, right? It reaches out to try and grab its mother's face. It tries to smile. It tries to point at something in the room. And the entire time the mother is just stonewalling this kid.
And then eventually the toddler after probably about, and this doesn't take long, it takes like 20, 30 seconds, the toddler moves to a rage response and starts to scream and starts to try and cry. And when that doesn't work, then the toddler completely checks out and disengages from the mother entirely and won't look at her. And then the mother eventually reconnects with the toddler and repairs. But that's an example of...
What can happen when you're a kid and you're trying to get your needs met and a parent is on their phone, not attuned to you, not present, maybe they're not even there, it's some other caretaker.
And so you move to rage or you move to shut down. And that's the same mechanism that the majority of people deploy as adults. They move to some form of rage, blowing up, getting angry, or they move to shut down. Screw it, I'm not gonna bother, I'm gonna disconnect. So those are some of the foundational pieces of how attachment is built and developed. I don't know if you want me to say one more piece about what happens when that goes on long enough.
So the big kicker and the reason why I love Dewey Freeman's model so much is because it explains what happens when this goes on in an ongoing way. So if you are a two-year-old or a three-year-old, if you're a kid and you continually try and get your needs met from a caregiver and over and over and over again, what you're met with is your needs don't matter, right? They're not attuned, like your parents not attuned to your caregivers, not attuned to you.
Your need for attachment is so strong, it doesn't go away, right? You keep trying to attach them, connect to them. But what happens is because you can't attach to them, you attach to the need itself. So instead of attaching to the parent, you attach to the food, touch, and movement. Or another way of saying it is that you attach to a substance, an object, or a behavior. And this is the foundation of where addiction starts.
we attach instead of attaching to a relationship or a person, or some type of intimate connection, we attach to a substance, an object, or a behavior. And so if you look at any addiction and any person that I've ever worked with that has had either addictive behaviors or is just a full-blown addict,
there is major disruptions in their attachment growing up. And they learned somewhere along the line that it was so unsafe for them to connect or attach to a caregiver. And instead, they would attach to some behavior, some object or some substance early on. And then that would essentially evolve into a full-blown addiction later on in life or some type of addictive pattern or behavior. Obviously, the reason it's important to bring up
that this is something that needs to be done chronically. It needs to happen lots and lots of times. Is this...
As a parent, you're not going to all 70 or 90 times per minute. You're not going to always be able to be there, to be attentive. And I don't want to make the parents that are listening go, oh my God, there was that moment earlier on where he was near the TV. He's going to be fucked. God, I've embedded a gambling addiction in him for the rest of time. Kids are resilient, right? And they're able to put up with things. And that's why as sad as it must be to watch that experiment happen, I, I,
It's probably not as far as to push it as unethical to do to a kid once for 30 seconds, especially if it helps us to sort of understand the human condition. So you mentioned that there are kind of these two phases, first one being to 18 months, and then there must be something else that this transitions or sort of graduates into what happens there.
Yeah. So the, the experiment that I was talking about before it's Tronics still face experiment, you just search still face experiment and it's totally worth watching because
For the average person, they're going to see exactly what happens inside of them when they're asking their girlfriend or boyfriend to like go on a date that they want to go on and their partner's ignoring them or they want attention and their partner's sitting next to them on the couch like texting and they're trying to get their attention. You'll literally see what happens in your body through the vehicle of the toddler. But back to your question.
Between zero to 18 months, so when you hit around the 18-month mark, a toddler will start to form language, and they'll start to form a sense of separation from mom. So between zero to 18 months, like I said, the world is sort of experienced through the primary caregiver, generally speaking, through the vehicle of mom. And so...
That toddler doesn't really have a sense of I, right? So if you have a six month old, they don't have a sense of me or I. That's not a concept that exists in their experience. They experience themselves as a sort of extension of mom. And as they get closer to 18 months, they start to develop more of a separation of like, oh, mom goes over there, but I don't.
And that formation of I starts to really develop different parts of their prefrontal cortex, their language section, where they start to have vocabulary, where they can express their wants and their needs. So they're not just kicking and screaming and crying and acting cute and all that kind of stuff. And so-
That transition develops that sense of me. This is mine. I want this. I need this. I don't need this. And then on top of that, from 18 months to three is layered on this notion of like, well,
Am I okay? Right? Do mom and dad approve of me? Do the people that take care of me want me here? Am I desired in this relationship? Do my needs matter to these people? And so all of that expression is pretty paramount. And for the parents that are listening to this,
And for the people that aren't parents that are listening to this of like, well, how effed up was my childhood? A lot of the research shows that it's like 34 to 35% of the time we need to have our needs met as a child by a primary caregiver. So it's not like an 80% of the time thing. In order to develop really secure, healthy attachment, it's actually a lower percentage than you think. You actually just need like a 35 to 40% of
of you expressing that you want something or giving a clue that you want something and having a caregiver come to meet that. So hopefully that gives some hope for people. Yes, yeah, yeah, I hope so too. Okay, so people are listening, they've heard about anxious and avoidant and there's different versions. How can someone listening work out what their attachment style is? Yeah, I mean, the simple way to look at this is one, I find the...
the labels to be somewhat useful, but they're not something that you should cling on to. I think that people have gotten in this habit of really over-pathologizing a lot of the psychological content that's out there, and it can actually be debilitating for you to make any progress. Because what happens is like,
avoidant attachment becomes like your next star sign, right? It's like, I'm a Leo and I'm avoidant attached, right? So it's like, that's not the aim. The aim is not to be like, you know, this new label of self-identification. But a couple of things that I think are important. One is when it comes to anxious and avoidant, there's a couple signs that really build
these pieces, okay? So the anxious is more of a structure of somebody who feels like they can't trust themselves. And so they have to over index and rely on relationship, right? I need you to be okay in order for me to be okay. That's usually how I put it. It's like, I need you to be all right in order for me to feel all right. Or I need you to reaffirm that I'm all right in this relationship.
And the avoidant is sort of the inverse of that. The avoidant is like, I don't need you at all in order for me to be okay. In fact, if you're infringing on, you know, if you're trying to create connection with me or consistent relationship with me, that feels like a threat.
That feels like my independence and my individuality is going to be taken away. And so oftentimes for an anxious person, they grew up in an environment where there was lots of inconsistency. They may have grown up in an environment where there was an inconsistent parent who was sort of
erratic in their emotional behavior. Maybe mom had wild mood swings or dad would have wild mood swings and you never really knew what you were gonna get relationally. And so that shows up in their adult relationships where there's a lot of anxiousness, a hypervigilance on their partner, like, are they okay? Are they feeling okay? Are they happy in our relationship?
So that's one. Another one can be really overly intrusive or overly bearing caregivers. That's another one that can create a lot of anxiousness within the relationship where if you have a mom or a dad who's like,
The helicopter parent, you know, which has been popularized in modern day, sort of like psychological speak. The helicopter parent will create a very anxious child because the experience for that child is you don't trust me to make good decisions and you make it sound like life is scary. And you make it sound like if I take risks, there's going to be some type of punishment or damage that's done to me.
So having an overbearing parent that might also look like having a parent who's sharing too much emotionally, um, sort of putting all of their worries and their woes onto you as a child. Um, and then having love, uh, and connection taken away, um, as a punishment can be another one that can produce an anxious attachment. So if, if you're somebody that gets a lot of, uh,
praise and validation but then when mom and dad are angry with you what they do is they withhold love or they you know they become like despondent and they ignore you for days on end that can create a lot of anxiousness around am i behaving in the way that i'm supposed to behave and then lastly you know there's this sort of obvious one which is like abuse trauma ptsd can create
pretty severe anxious attachment because for a number of reasons, right? I mean, if you were physically abused or emotionally abused in a relationship, then that's going or in your childhood, that's going to carry on into your relationship where you're constantly worrying about, am I going to do the right thing? Am I going to say the right thing? So it's very common for people that grew up in abusive households of any kind, right?
that there's some level of really deep anxiety around, am I okay? Am I going to say or do the right thing? So maybe I'll just pause with the anxious one and see if you- Yeah, let's move through anxious. We'll go completely through that one. I think that would be cool to break down. So the core of anxious attachment is, if you're not okay, I'm not okay. I need you to be okay. There is this sort of degree of hypervigilance, of being on edge, of looking
of checking, making sure that everything's all right. There's a degree of uncertainty around, is my behavior acceptable? Is my behavior not acceptable? What are the boundaries of being a good boy or a good girl? And presumably that manifests as a lot of things, but one of them being neediness. Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of neediness and a lot of externalization and external hypervigilance. So when you talk to or listen to an anxious attached person, they are...
They're very fixated in on how's the other person doing? How's the relationship doing? And how are my behaviors and choices going to affect the relationship versus how am I doing? Am I okay? Do I feel good about myself? And so some of the other hallmarks of an anxious person are oftentimes lacking a deeper sense of self-worth and self-value.
And so it can be very common that an anxiously attached person is just constantly questioning whether or not they add value to the relationship.
They're questioning whether or not they are deserving of that other person and of that relationship. And because of that, they can fall into this validation trap where they don't want to or mean to, but how they start to act is in this sort of thirsty way, trying to get validation, right? Tell me I'm good enough. Tell me I'm smart enough. I'm good looking enough, etc.,
And it becomes almost compulsive to the point where, and there's sort of differing degrees, but for some anxious attached people, it's very hard for them to not over text, not over share, not love bomb. Because in their experience, in their mind, it's like, well, if I can just tell you everything that I'm feeling, then there's maybe a chance that you'll tell me that I'm okay or that you'll accept me.
even though I've just emotionally puked all over you, right? And so, and I'm not trying to like hate on the anxious people. I'm gonna be just as harsh with the avoidance, but that's the response. And that's there because growing up,
Again, a lot of their experience was from this place of, I need to pay attention very closely to how my parents or my primary caregiver is acting and responding because if I don't get it right with them, then I'm gonna get severely punished. They're gonna withhold love. They might shame me really heavily. They might criticize or judge me a lot. And so my sense of worth is very externally dependent.
So obviously to deal with that, there's a couple of things that an anxious person needs to do tactically, needs to learn internally in order to shift into a more secure place. And this is true, you know, whether you're a man or a woman, it's just true across the board. So the first thing is you have to start to learn how to regulate yourself. And some people call this self-soothing.
Some people call this self-regulation, but you have to learn how to soothe yourself and regulate yourself in the face of that anxiousness, that fear, that worry of, am I enough? Am I good enough? Is this person going to leave me?
whatever the story or narrative is internally that might be coming up. And so you have to learn, you know, maybe it's breathing techniques or meditation techniques that you can- What are your favorites? You work with people that have got this all of the time. So there's someone that's listening, they go, Connor,
bullseye that's me always feel like i need my partner or my friends to reaffirm my worth in their life i'm always worried i'm over over texting i'm over sharing um i i get activated i get agitated i'm permanently on edge um what is a strategic way what are some like takeaway tactics that people can use that can help them to to regulate from this first step
Yeah, so meditation can be good. My caveat there is that for some people, meditation is going to feel like it's amplifying your anxiety in the beginning. And it can be a hard thing for some people to deal with, especially if you're in the category of having experienced some type of trauma or abuse growing up, because trauma produces just an abundance of energy physically in the body that a lot of people don't know how to cope with.
So if you're going to try that route, definitely try and have some guided version where there's people there. Breathwork is going to be your best friend.
You can use breath work like Wim Hof. There's some very good breathing strategies that you can use like box breathing that's inhale for four, pause for four, exhale for four, pause for four at the bottom. That one is great. I mean, Navy SEALs use that all the time. And then there's another breathing strategy that has been really found to support people that are more prone to panic attacks, that have anxiety disorders.
And that breathing technique is inhaling for a count of four through the nose, pausing at the top for a count of two, and then exhaling out the mouth for a count of six and pausing for two. So in through the nose, count of four, pause at the top for the count of two, exhaling out the mouth for a count of six. And the reason why you want the inhale through the nose and out the mouth at different intervals, shorter in through the nose and longer out through the mouth,
is that this forces your heart rate down. And so when you're in a very anxious state, what's happening in your body
And it's very common that people that are very anxious are like chronically cold, right? They have like a chronic cold response in their body. Their hands are cold, their feet are cold. They kind of feel like on the verge of shivering all the time, but anxiety produces very real physical response in the body. And what happens is that when you're anxious, you can't quite get a deep breath in, right?
And the breath is like the modulating dial to your autonomic nervous system. So it's kind of like the modulation dial between your parasympathetic and your sympathetic nervous system. And your sympathetic is your fight, flight, or freeze. It's your stress response. And parasympathetic is your relaxation response.
And so when you inhale for the four and exhale for the six, the longer exhale out actually pushes your heart rate down and pushes your breath rate down 'cause those two things are interconnected.
And so the slower you can get your breath rate, the deeper you can get your breath into your body, the slower you can get the breath rate into the body, the more you're actually going to reduce your breath rate per minute. And that will force your heart rate down per minute, which will send the signal to the brain to say, stop dumping out so much cortisol and adrenaline and like, let's chill out. So you want to do that for about three to five minutes.
as what a lot of the research shows. And that will put you into more parasympathetic dominant state or relaxed state. Okay, so that is a way that someone who has been activated in the moment can make themselves feel better. The big question that I've got, and this is the same with all of the different attachment styles, how much of this can be healed
How much of the physics of the system that is kind of ingrained in us, this is the way that we see the world. How much of that can be unpacked and fixed, for want of a better term? Or is it just that people, there are a bunch of strategies that can help you to kind of cope or deal with it and salve it, like anesthetize yourself in the moment. And then once that's done, you kind of go back to baseline and baseline for you is anxious and baseline for this other person is avoidant or whatever.
Okay, good question. So depending on the severity of what you experienced growing up, well maybe I'll just say this, almost all of it is going to be salvageable. You can move quite quickly from anxious to secure or avoidant to secure or anxious avoidant to secure.
through very intentional work. A big part of what gets missed out online and a lot of the content that's out there is the under indexing or the underestimation of how much your nervous system plays into this.
And so a lot of the content that's out there is super heavy on cognitive strategies, which will only get you so far. You cannot think your way into a secure attachment. Like I just wish everybody knew that. You just can't think your way into a secure attachment because your body has literally been wired and trained early on in life to either not trust the security and safety of a relationship or
or to crave for that in such a strong way that needing the other person to be okay or needing that validation from the other person is what gives you the salve or the soothe. So you absolutely can repair. You absolutely can shift your baseline. You can move your baseline, whether you want to call it up or down, to a much healthier, more secure place, but it requires you actually getting into your nervous system and your body and out of your head.
I think that's one of the most important pieces. - Okay, so it's not just read a bunch of books, do some internal family systems and hope for the best. You actually need to do some breath work. You need to down-regulate. You need to learn that this is a response. Okay, so that's the first one. First one, meditation, breath work. What else? - Yeah, next is for the anxious, you're gonna probably need to do some self-worth work. Again, very common that anxious attached people
have a self-esteem issue for lack of a better term. They're lacking in self-esteem. They're lacking in a sense of self-worth. And so you're going to have to start to develop a couple things. Number one is either the competencies that you feel like you need in order to know that you unequivocally are bringing value into the relationship, not in an egotistical way, uh,
You know, not in a bolstering way, but to be able to know that, hey, these are actually valuable things that I bring to the table. And if you don't think that you have those things, then you need to be able to develop them, whether it's communication, whether, you know, it's financial literacy that you're bringing into the relationship, but like you need to know that there are certain things, attributes, characteristics that
that are valuable that you're bringing into the relationship. So that's one thing. And then the next thing is a pretty robust internal system of self-validation. Because remember, the anxious person is seeking from their partner to get validation. Tell me I'm okay. Tell me I'm enough.
And that's often what is required internally. Not often. It is what is required internally is you have to begin to give yourself the validation that you're seeking from others. And this is why the avoidant anxious relationships are so wild for a lot of people. Like if you've ever seen some of the content online where people are talking about the anxious avoidant relationships, they're there.
They're so alluring for people because they feed off of each other, right? The anxious person is constantly trying to get the avoidant to give them attention and validation and the avoidant person that just fuels their avoidant tactics and they pull away more and more and more.
So you have to start to develop more consistent routines. This can be like a rigorous gratitude journaling. And I'll recommend something because I think what most people do is like, I'm grateful for the fact that I went for a run today and I'm grateful that I did my laundry. And that is pretty surface level. So there's two pieces that I've found to be really helpful
that you add on. So you can say, I'm grateful for, and then whatever you're grateful for. And then you wanna add in, this is important to me because, and how this makes me feel is.
So we have to add those pieces in because we want to intellectually anchor in the importance of it. And then we want to emotionally anchor in why it actually matters to us. And without those piece, those two pieces, it's just sort of analogous. So you can say, I'm grateful for what I appreciate today is, or I'm proud of myself for, but always follow it up with, this is important to me because, and how this makes me feel is. And that'll cognitively anchor it in and then emotionally anchor it in.
Okay. Anything else when it comes to tactics for anxious? I mean, there's sort of the like bigger picture that we, you know, the anxious person has to begin to detach a sense of worth and safety from others. And the challenge for the anxious person is that their wounding or their pain is wrapped up in the experience of constantly trying to seek safety from a parental figure or caregiver that never gave it to them.
And so they've never really fully developed that sense of worth or safety internally. And it gets sought after in relationships. And so there has to be this pulling of the nets back in to say, I'm going to dedicate this, you know, whatever, however long of a period of time it is to developing a sense of worth and safety within myself. And, you know, that again, breathwork practices are phenomenal for that. The gratitude journaling is phenomenal for that.
exposure therapy can be very, very helpful. So for the anxious person, exposure therapy can sound like saying no to a partner. It's just as simple as that. It can be exposing. Why is that such a big deal? Because the anxious person is terrified of creating any situation in which they will give their partner the ammunition to leave them. That's
Essentially, they're terrified of being left. They're terrified of getting it wrong. They're very afraid that they'll do or say the wrong thing, which will cause separation or disconnection. And so generally speaking, what can happen for an anxious person is that they won't say no to things in a relationship. And they'll constantly what's called fawn, right? We've all heard fight, flight, or freeze, but there's another one which is fawn.
anxious people tend to fawn a lot and they'll acquiesce to whatever their other person, you know, whoever they're dating wants, and it can create a whole slew of challenges. So exposure therapy to saying no can be incredibly helpful and actually putting yourself into situations
where you might feel anxious, whether it's like practicing public speaking can be helpful to bolster some confidence, taking up a skillset, you know, whether it's going to Brazilian jiu-jitsu or woodworking. I'm clearly giving masculine examples, but...
You can tell that I work with men predominantly. But those types of things, right? Go take a salsa dancing class, like merengue, like whatever. Doing things where you actually have to confront the anxiousness that exists within you and then practice grounding and regulating in those moments. Is anxious attachment a sext? Does it discriminate on gender?
Not really. I mean, well, I'll put it this way. I put out videos on and episodes on these like deep dives into anxious and deep dives into avoidant and avoidant. And again, my work is for usually for men. Um, but the avoidant has like two to three times as many views and downloads as the anxious one. Um,
I think traditionally men are more avoidant than women. I think traditionally women are more anxious than men. That's not a rule. It's a generality, but it's certainly something that I've seen. And a lot of, you know, my wife's one of the top couples therapists in the world and she works
you know, exclusively with couples. And we've talked about this quite a bit. And so that, you know, this isn't hard data from a research, but in my experience, men are usually more avoidant. Women are usually more anxious. Um, and she, you know, verifies that as well. And a lot of the couples work that she's done, and she's got like 20,000 clinical hours. Um, and that's,
you know, we could talk about this sort of like socio part of it. I think that men were generally socialized that when we're dealing with something hard in our lives that we should isolate, right? It's like when you're going through something hard as a man, suck it up, stuff it down, deal with it. That's monk mode, that's your stoicism, that's your grit, your teeth and get through it. Yeah. Right. Grit your teeth and bear it. And so
And so a lot of the narrative and the stories that are told to men actually promote avoidant attachment style, right? They promote behaviors where, with the behaviors of isolation and disconnection and trying to figure things out solo, where women are oftentimes more socialized to be more communal, right? When you have a problem, go talk to your friends about it, go get their advice.
And so there's an over-indexing of external validation, social credibility,
social opinions really weighing in on what you should be doing and not a not a dissolving of independent thought or opinion but a really over emphasis on you should value what other people think and say above what you think and feel yes very interesting i wonder i i imagine that for men there is maybe with the anxious attachment style an additional layer of shame
around that neediness given that the masculine ideal is the grit your teeth and bear it get through it just hoist the weight on your back and keep on walking type thing that there probably is a an additional layer of guilt and and and discomfort and and sort of uh self-shame around anxious attachment yeah a hundred percent i mean
I think the guys that I've worked with that have an anxious attachment, there's a tremendous amount of self-deprecation. It's like, what the hell's wrong with me? Why am I such a pussy? How come I can't just get over this? This is ridiculous. Those types of narratives are super strong. And I think it's interesting because shame is...
Shame is something that develops early on in life actually as a protective mechanism. And we don't talk about this enough. I think shame is something that a lot of men feel but are very disconnected from. But shame develops early on to protect us from getting punished by our parents, to protect us from getting criticized or disappointing the people that we love.
And so early on in our development as a human being, shame tries to show up to course correct our behavior. And what ends up happening is that we then try and motivate ourselves using that shame. What the hell's wrong with you? You can do better. We try and use what I call dark motivation to propel ourselves forward. And it works. I've worked with a ton of people
world-class athletes, rappers, musicians who get to a point in their career where they've shamed themselves to a certain level of excellence. Yeah, elite level where they're like, you know, setting world records and selling, you know, getting Grammys and shit like that. And all of a sudden,
the boat starts to fall apart, you know? Like the seams start to come apart and there's cracks in the armor and they get depressed and they start to make really bad choices business-wise and they start to blow up in their marriage and their relationship. And in large part, it's because this shame that has been brewing inside of them, which once kept them safe and also helped to propel them to the heights of their careers.
is now destroying them, destroying their relationships and their intimacy. So it's very, I know it's just like a side tangent. I hope you don't mind the- Not at all. It's something I've thought about an awful lot. And Morgan Housel quotes Will Smith in his book talking about how when he was poor and miserable, he thought he had hope. And when he was rich and miserable, he was despondent. And I wonder whether that
That happens with the elite guys that you work with that have maybe been driven to do great things because of their desire for validation and their need to be accepted and requited by the world. And then they're like, well, you know, I'm at the top of the tree. Oh, and this problem's still there.
Oh, that means I'm really fucked up. Oh, this is a much bigger problem because all of the, was it the money? No. Was it the status? No. Was it the cars? No. Was it the women? No. Was it the house? No. And you go, oh, okay. I'm fundamentally fractured and broken. And, and I imagine that that's where the full house of cards starts to collapse. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what's interesting is that in our culture, um,
the rules have sort of reversed a little bit, right? Where like women are being encouraged to be more avoidant,
and to display some of these more avoidant behaviors and shut down more and try and use. What's fascinating to me is the use socially of shame on things like social media. People try and deploy shame as a behavioral change mechanism or a behavioral change tool. I don't like what you're saying online, so I'm gonna try and shame the shit out of you to get you to stop.
Well, that happens at an individual level, right? That's just more sort of like proof for what we were talking about, where we try and deploy shame as a means of behavioral correction internally. And that can serve us sometimes
But when we use it as a crutch or over rely on it, it becomes toxic within us. Not even toxic, I hate using that word because it's just ridiculous. But it becomes something that has a net negative outcome for us psychologically and relationally. Okay, how is anxious attachment different to avoidant attachment? Yeah, so the...
way that anxious is formed is actually different from how avoidant is formed. So remember, anxious is, this is just for the listeners, not for you, because I feel like you've been digging in on this, but for all of us, avoidant is really formed in this, I have to rely on myself to
only. It's not safe for me to rely on trust in others. And anxious is I have to rely on trust in others. So how avoidant is formed is through a couple key things. Number one, you can have very emotionally distant caregivers. And so John Bowlby, again, the guy that sort of started attachment, talked
extensively about how when caregivers are emotionally distant, they don't really express a wide range of emotionality. They don't engage in emotional conversations. They're not willing to sort of connect with you growing up in a way that shows interest in what you're feeling, that that can produce this sort of emotionally avoidant
attachment style where you learn through that relationship that it's not safe for you to actually talk about anything emotionally charged. Another one is a big emphasis on premature independence. And so one of the big, big, big sort of hallmarks of avoidant attachment is you experience something growing up
where you were thrust into a position of responsibility and maturity long before you were ready for it. It's this sort of classic version in the men that I see is parents got divorced, he was eight or nine years old or 10 or 12 years old, and dad says, you're the man of the house now, you've got to look after your brother or sister and your mom. And suddenly that guy is helping mom to pay the bills and keep track of finances when he's 10 years old. And the weight of
being the man of the house is now put on his shoulders, but he doesn't even really have a context for what the hell that means. And that type of responsibility can produce somebody who later on in life is like, I don't want to be responsible for other people. I do not want to be in charge or in care of what you are dealing with and what you're feeling. So that's another one, not being able to have consistency or predictability.
can create and avoid an attachment. So again, if you, let's just say you were asking to have pizza every week on a Friday night,
And every week you got a wildly different response, right? One time you ask for it and mom and dad are like, oh, sure, that sounds great. And then next time they throw a hissy fit. And the time after that, they slam the door on your face and ignore you. That type of inconsistency or lack of predictability, I think, is pretty common. A lot of the men that I've worked with who have avoidant attachment styles are
will often talk about one of their primary parents, oftentimes a dad, who just was really unpredictable emotionally. You know, like you just didn't know what you're gonna get. You didn't know if dad was gonna be in a good mood or a bad mood, if he's gonna yell at you for asking to change the channel, or if, you know, he was gonna acquiesce. And so what that does is it trains your nervous system to see voicing your needs as a threat.
So your body literally feels a threat response when you think about saying, this is what I need relationally, just to kind of cue that up for what that can look like in a relationship. And then
rejection of needs when you're younger. So again, maybe you had a caregiver, a parent, a mom and dad who just were not responsive to what you needed. Very common ones that I've heard are things like, you know, family moves, kid goes to a new school, he's getting bullied pretty severely, voices that to his parents and nothing happens.
And so he's experiencing this childhood of like, I'm going through this exceptionally hard time. I'm being bullied. I'm telling you that I'm really struggling and you're doing nothing about it. And so again, that can reinforce my needs don't matter. I have to figure this out all on my own. And so there's a hyper-reliance individually. It's like learned helplessness about making your needs known. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so what happens for a lot of avoidance is they fall into this trap of
individual reliance. I don't want to tell people what I'm going through or what I'm feeling or when I'm struggling, when I'm having a hard time at work. I mean, this is why I think you and George from the Tin Man talked about that study that was done in the UK about how like 92% of men who had taken their own lives had been in therapy and 80% of them had been marked as low risk or no risk.
This is the case for a lot of men where the therapeutic industry can't even identify or recognize when a man is really struggling. And for avoidance, they've become incredibly proficient in
Like a secret agent. A hundred percent. Yeah. You can be around an avoidant and think that they're totally good and inside they're just all types of fucked up. And they're just like, they're having a hard time with something. They're going through an existential crisis about whether or not they should sell their business or leave their career. And you're having a beer with them and they seem totally good, right? They're acting like their relationship and their life is completely fine. They used to...
hiding their internal emotional state from the world.
Yes, yeah, 100%. And I mean, like, candidly, this is what I had to deal with. You know, I had learned through my childhood, through a number of different experiences that it was not safe for me to communicate what I was experiencing. It was not okay for me to communicate when I was going through a hard time. It was not all right for me to express what I needed or wanted. And so I became somebody who grew up
and had relationships with women where I never said what I wanted. I would just peace out. I would never communicate when I was having a hard time. I would just go find a side piece, you know? And so it, that wasn't functional to have a committed relationship, um, because I would just avoid all of the hard conversations and pretend like I was okay until, you know, shit would hit the fan and they'd be like, what? Like,
how, I didn't, I didn't know that anything was wrong. And I was like, yeah, well, I kind of just didn't tell you that anything was wrong, you know? And so, um, so that's, that's another sort of like hallmark of, of avoidant behaviors. It doesn't mean that it's like, you know, that you, that you're absolutely an avoidant attached. It just means that you have some of those avoidant behaviors. What is the difference between dismissive and fearful avoidance?
Yeah. So dismissive, I mean, they're, they're kind of, uh, um, how do I want to phrase this? They're just kind of, it's kind of a semantic, honestly. Um, dismissives are going to be more, um, just like the word says, it's going to be more dismissive of attachment. They're going to be more dismissive of needing connection of wanting intimacy of, um, seeing that as a priority, seeing that as something that's valuable and meaningful. And so when you hear a dismissive talk, um,
about their relationship and their relationship problems. Like if I've had a number of guys that come in to work with me individually or with their wives,
or their girlfriends. And what you'll usually hear is, well, she should just be fine with what we have. And they'll usually be talking from a place of like, this doesn't even matter to me. This isn't a big deal. And so there's a lot of diminishing the problems. There's a lot of diminishing that there's an issue in the relationship. But when you get inside of what's happening in their head and in their experience,
there's actually a diminishing that what they need and want even matters. And that's usually because of these experiences where they learn what I need and want is so irrelevant to the people that love me that there's just no point in me expressing it. And so again, that's kind of like the learned helplessness that you're talking about. Whereas with the fearful avoidant,
The fearful avoidant is exactly as it sounds. It's just that is a person who is genuinely terrified of connection and intimacy and closeness and being able to trust a relationship. And so they will generally operate from a place of acquiescing to their fear versus confronting and risking rejection. So these are the guys that are like,
I don't know if I should even dare say that lest the internet get it, but like the majority of incels are fearful avoidance, right? They desperately crave and want connection and closeness and intimacy, but it's terrifying. Again, because, and it's often that fearful avoidance really experienced oftentimes some sort of like heavy trauma growing up in childhood where it became like,
It became apparent that relationship and attachment was damaging or dangerous for them at a real physical level. So that's some of the differences between fearful and dismissive. How does that feel? Let's say there's someone listening who isn't avoidant.
How would you explain the, I think we can kind of understand the anxious attachment. Everybody's been anxious, right? At some point. And that just being triggered by increasingly minuscule interactions with a friend or a partner. It's like, oh, it's kind of like that. What does being an avoidant person feel like in adulthood? Oh boy. It, at the core of it is this kind of brutal aloneness.
you know, where you want connection, but it's even if it's at a sort of like deep level, there's a yearning and a craving for connection and closeness to be known, to share life with somebody.
But there is this very real felt experience that that's never going to be possible, that you're too fucked up to have that, that you're broken or unfixable. That's at the very extreme. I'm obviously talking about an extreme version. I think for the average avoidant, it's more, there's a heavy amount of perfectionism that can come in, in terms of
mulling over every single scenario, like wanting to create connection, but well, what if I screwed it up so I'm not even gonna bother or it could go sideways or I could get rejected so I'm not gonna say what I need or I want. So that's a big part of it, disconnecting from thinking that their needs are a priority at all and having a good amount of
Of fear that if you actually got what you wanted, you would blow it up. That is kind of at the core of the avoidant. Part of the avoidant story is I'm not even going to bother because something will mess it up. Either I'll finally get what I want and need and they'll leave me. Or I'll finally get what I want and need and it won't be enough. Or I'll finally get what I want and need and I'll screw it up.
And it's like usually one of those three. And so, you know, in inside of an avoidant person is this frustration and this helplessness and this kind of like animosity towards themselves or life that they they just don't.
They don't feel like they're at the center of somebody else's orbit, so they become at the center of their own orbit. And that creates this sort of safety blanket that they need in order to get by and get through the hard times in life. And I think the last thing I would say is the inability to trust in anybody else to support you going through some hard shit.
And it really is heartbreaking because a lot of the guys that I work with who are avoidant have such a hard time even working with a therapist or a coach or a counselor and trusting that that person genuinely wants to help them. You know, it's like you're literally paying somebody to help you and you still don't trust that they want to help you or that they can help you. And so that's...
that's some sort of like peeling back the curtain of what it's like for an avoidant person. It's very lonely. It can be quite isolating. It can be very frustrating because you want closeness and connection, but there's all these ways in which you're sabotaging it or mistrusting it.
And it feels like a threat. And so the big sort of marker in a relationship is the closer that an avoidant person feels to somebody, the more in love that he feels or she feels, the more intimate that they start to get, the more known that the avoidant person feels, the more that the danger increases.
and alarms go off in their body of like something bad is going to happen you are getting closer you know who i am and now i want to push you away yeah it's a it's a vicious cycle um and i would guess that in kind of pop culture at the moment
the anxious attachment person is probably given more sympathy in some ways. It's like more obvious that, well, this is a person, look, they're fawning, they're trying, that this is them trying. And look, you're sort of dismissive and aloof and you're an avoidant person. You don't even care. You're not showing up.
So I imagine that as, you know, for the guys that maybe have shame around the neediness and the hypervigilance and the sort of need for validation, there is probably like a guilt around being avoidant. It's like, I've made my own fucking bed. I did this. I'm doing this to me. Here I go again, pushing people away that get too close to me. This is why you don't deserve to have anyone. This is why you're never going to have anyone. So both sides.
individuals in this have got their own guilt and shame and story and narrative that they tell themselves about how they are culpable for the thing that is happening to them. But I would say at least on balance, like social psychology, I guess would suggest that the, uh, anxious attached person would be given more sympathy because it's more obvious that they need to be given sympathy. That's right. Yeah. And, and I think,
the anxious attached person's behaviors are more socially acceptable in our current culture versus the avoidant person's behaviors, right? Because the avoidant person's behaviors relationally are oftentimes more controlling. And they're more controlling because
when we don't trust, control is what we exert. When we don't trust, control is what we exert. We turn to controlling when we see trust as something that's threatening. And so because avoidants have a really hard time trusting outside of themselves, trusting anybody but themselves, whether it's life or a partner,
They will often deploy mechanisms of trying to control that other person to get what they want. So instead of saying, here's what I want relationally, there's a lot of control and coercion and manipulation to try and get their needs met. Give me an example.
So you might have like, for example, you might have a guy or a woman in a relationship, they're avoidant, and they want some type of closeness, some type of intimacy. Maybe they want to be sexually intimate. They won't come out and say that. They won't express either verbally or sometimes even physically that they're aroused and want sexual connection.
What will happen for a lot of people in this space is they will start to criticize and judge their partner and try and criticize them into sexual connection. You know that we haven't had sex in a week? You know that we haven't had sex in like five days? What's going on? How come? Where are, like, what's going on with you? And it'll be an externalized criticism of the other person to try and coax them into some type of sexual connection to meet their need.
And so on the receiving end of that is, oh, I feel controlled. I feel judged. I feel criticized. What's happening? But underneath that criticism and that avoidant person is, I want sexual closeness. I want sexual connection. It's being deployed in such an uncouth, non-delicate manner.
very untactful way that it kind of drives away the exact thing that that person probably needs deep down, which is, no, your needs do matter. And you become a self-fulfilling prophecy, I imagine. Because...
Try as you might, it's probably not a good idea to try and passive-aggress someone into having sex with you. Right. Yeah, you can never... I just have a common saying of you can never criticize your way into great sex. It's just like you can't do it. But we deploy, so many of us deploy that strategy, right? It's like, I'm not getting what I want, and so I'm going to try and criticize you into giving me that. So that's an example. You might want...
to open up and talk about something. You might want to go on a certain date, you know, go experience something, but instead of being direct and honest and trusting that your partner cares about what you want to do or what you want to experience, you will manipulate the situation. And so maybe you'll book it and you won't tell them.
right and and all of a sudden you know the day before you're like oh by the way we're going to that comedy show tomorrow night like we're gonna go see andrew schultz tomorrow night and they're like what what are you talking about we didn't talk about this no yeah i told you about this i told you that i wanted to go to this so that's another example of um you know trying to get your needs met in a way without actually having to ask for your needs to be met okay what are the tactics for regulating yourself as an avoidant person
So first and foremost, you have to understand the sort of roots or the origins of what created your avoidant attachment. Same with your anxious. I didn't say that in the other one, but I'll say it now. For both of these, it is so helpful to understand the roots of your attachment because it will give light and inform the patterns that are showing up in your adult relationship. So that's just plain and simple.
The next thing is prioritize your experience and prioritize the expression of your experience. So avoiding people generally have a story that what I want and need doesn't matter. And so as a practice, you actually have to start to speak what it is that you want. And it can start super simple. You might want to start with like saying what you want for dinner.
or saying where you want to go on the weekend on a date or saying where you want to go for vacation.
expressing what you're really feeling, right? So you come home from work and your partner says, "Hey, how was your day?" And instead of saying, "Fine," you say, "Actually, it was really freaking great and here's why." Or, "It really sucked and it sucks because of X, Y, and Z." And so you have to practice prioritizing your own experience and expressing what's true within your experience because that feels like a threat within the avoidant person system.
Next is to shift from blame to ownership. So again, very common that an avoidant person lacks taking responsibility. The big sort of hallmark of the avoidant anxious relationship when an avoidant and anxious person get together is that the anxious person always feels at fault for the dysfunction in the relationship and the avoidant person is happy to assign blame to them.
And so as the avoidant person, you have to start to look at your own behaviors. And this is a common trope within the sort of like avoidance space that anxious people end up taking a lot of the blame, a lot of the responsibility. They're constantly fixated and trying to figure out like, what did I do and how can I solve this and how can I fix this?
And if they're with an avoidant person, it's perfect because the avoidant person then never really has to take any ownership or responsibility. And it creates this like perfect shit storm where the avoidant person is just like sitting back in the lazy, you know, lazy boy chair and like, you know, cracking a cold one and just, and just taking it easy. So.
So as the avoidant person, you have to start to really take ownership over your defense mechanisms when you're closing off, when you are pulling away, when you are creating disconnection actively, and you have to practice calling yourself out on it. You have to be able to say, you know what, I did X, Y, and Z to push you away, to create some space because I didn't know how to ask for an hour of solitude, which I really wanted and needed.
So that's the next one. And then start to use shutdown as a bridge. So the avoidant person, it's tough because their response mechanism to hard times, their response mechanism to feeling too close is to shut down and disconnect.
And that is a great place to practice reconnection. So I have this sort of saying that you have to race to repair. So if you're the avoidant person in a relationship, you have to be the one that starts to practice repairing after a disconnection or after a conflict or the two of you get into an argument and
And you just want to not give a crap for 48 hours because you get to revel in the silence and not have to talk to your partner. No, you have to be the one that moves towards the repair. And instead of shutting down, notice the part of you that wants to check out and do the hard thing, confront the hard thing and actually
send the text message, make the phone call, make the FaceTime, tap your partner on the shoulder, say you're sorry, take ownership over your part in the disconnection. You have to lean into beginning to trust that when you take ownership, you're not going to be severely punished because the problem and the challenge that a lot of avoidant people have had is that when they did try and take responsibility
in their youth, they were generally punished really severely, or they were criticized really heavily, or they were shamed really heavily. And so it developed a mechanism of oftentimes lying through omission, just not saying anything. And then hopefully you get away with it, which was my favorite mechanism and modality as an avoino, it was just like, "Eh, if I just don't say anything, then maybe it's not a problem." So that's another one. And then
Again, regulating your nervous system, but instead of self-soothing, it's relational soothing or relational regulation. So there's a bunch of different things that you can do. I can give sort of an overview of something you can do to co-regulate with your partner. If you're in a relationship, you can sit forehead to forehead with your partner and
And if you are a guy in a relationship with a woman, you put your hands on her back where her ribs are, the lower part of her ribs, and she puts her hands on the lower part of your ribs so that you can feel her inhale and exhale. And then you breathe together and you follow her breath because men have larger lungs, so we have larger oxygen capacity. And so you want to follow her breath because if she tries to follow you, it's going to be very uncomfortable for her. She's going to fucking suffocate. She's going to pass out. Yeah.
My wife and I have this running joke. She's like, how do you take in so much damn oxygen? I'm like, I don't know. Breathe so infrequently, Connor. Yeah, right? I know. So you follow her breath and then you take about 30 to 40 breaths together just at a natural pace.
forehead to forehead, feeling the back of her ribs, breathing with her. And as you do this, your bodies are going to start to synchronize. And so as you breathe with her, what will happen is your breath rate per minute will match with hers.
And after about 20 breaths, your heart rates will start to sync up. And so, you know, if you're at a 75 BPM and she's at a 60 BPM or you're at a 60 BPM and she's at 75, what will happen after about 20 to 30 breaths is that your heart rates will start to synchronize with one another.
and your heart rates will match at the lower pace and you will co-regulate together. So that's just a good exercise that you can do. - Is that something that you do in response to a situation? Is that something that's good to just do as a habit?
Yeah, it's something that you I would recommend doing as a habit. It's something that like after conflict, you're probably not going to want to do, you know, like as an avoidant person, it's just not going to be like the number one thing that you like you, you want to do. And so this is something that I would recommend people just practice a couple times a week in relationship.
It can create a lot of intimacy. I know a lot of couples use it before sex or before bed or just after the kids are down and life is crazy or whatever it is, right? So just you can use this as an ongoing practice. You could use it post-conflict, but I think for the average avoidant person, that's going to be too much. Level of discomfort. How long? You mentioned 20 breaths is around about where you start to synchronize. Five minutes? Yeah.
Yeah, about four to five minutes is where you want to land. And again, both of you closing the eyes, tuning into your body, and just notice what happens to any anxiety, any fear that you might be feeling. Notice what actually physically what happens in your body. Because again, the main part of healing your attachment dysfunction or your attachment wound is about re-acclimating your nervous system to either...
trusting the self or trusting the relationship. So your body has to acclimate and then your mind will follow. If you try and cognitively think your way into a secure attachment, it'll just never work. You will stay in the same patterns. Your body has to trust yourself or trust the relationship. And for the avoidant person, you have to trust the relationship. And so that's a really good exercise. I think the last piece that I would just say, if I can add one more piece in,
is you have to practice getting uncomfortably close. For the avoidant person, you do not want to get close. You do not want to be known. There's resistance that is protecting you from getting too close. And so the biggest challenge that avoidant people will face is that when they start to get close sexually, emotionally, psychologically, etc.,
they are going to feel resistance and that resistance is normal. It is just your body trying to protect itself from something that it falsely has labeled as a threat. So you have to work to regulate your body to trust relationships. And, you know, this can be hard if you found yourself in a relationship with a partner that you're like, I actually don't know if I trust this person.
um that can be confusing your intrinsic and maybe some cues that you're picking up on from the other person at the same time that's right yeah and i mean i had a i had a history of choosing women that i actually like didn't trust you know and it's like a classic avoidant right it's just
Yeah, hooray. And there was one woman that I did trust and then I blew that to smithereens. Double hooray, well done. Yeah, double hooray. But now I'm married and I have a child and I figured it out and so can you. What if there's someone listening who goes, this all sounds great, but I see myself in both of these.
I find myself fawning and needing reassurance, but then also there's times when I kind of need to be on my own and push myself away and I subjugate my own desires and I worry about making my own needs known. I'm also needy and sort of isolated at the same time. Is that a thing?
Yes. Yes. So there's something called the fearful avoidant and the, the fearful avoidant that we were talking about is kind of like anxious attachment and avoidant attachment sandwiched together. It's a beautiful thing. Uh, it's a much smaller, it's a much smaller percentage of people. So, uh, percentage wise, roughly 50% of people have secure, healthy attachments. Um, and
And then you've got like 23% of people, 22% of people that are anxious and roughly about the same that are avoidant and then a very small percentage of people that are fearful avoidant. And so the people that are fearful avoidant, this is also known as disorganized attachment. And it's hard because you will cycle through the experience of the disorganized attachment is sort of
characterized as a really deep desire for intimacy and closeness while feeling completely unlovable and distrusting people to accept who you are and actually support you. So that's the essence of the disorganized attachment. If you really genuinely feel like you have disorganized attachment,
I would strongly recommend finding somebody that knows about how to work with attachment to support you. What you will have to do is work on both of the pieces of anxious and avoidant. You will have to work on developing a sense of self-trust and being able to regulate and soothe yourself when that anxiety starts to spin up. And you will also have to begin to choose some people in your life
that you begin to trust, that you begin to find safety in that relationship and bring yourself more openly to that relationship. So you have to kind of spin both plates at once. Throughout this entire conversation, you have used the
relationship between yourself and another person as both the battleground and the training ground for how this manifests and also how you improve it is it possible to improve attachment on your own can people monk mode their way through their attachment no yeah no sigma the sigma male
community is not happy to hear. Well, here's what I'll say. Like, I think, I think this is where the red pill got so much traction, right? Is that the red pill is a very much a non-relational framework, right?
It is hyper control oriented, hyper control oriented. It's very much about create this frame, hold this frame, walk through life in this frame. And that frame usually doesn't require you to be open, doesn't require to be any type of vulnerable, doesn't require you to be real, doesn't really require you to express what you need or want in the relationship. And so it allows you to,
to kind of like circumvent the rawness that can sometimes happen in relationship. Again, we are wired to be social creatures and we are meant to be in relationship with other people. And
some of the greatest joys that you will experience in life. And a lot of the research, you know, there's the longest standing study that I'm sure you've talked about countless times on the show that talks about how one of the greatest predictors of life's longevity and happiness is the quality of your relationships at 50. You know, the quality of your relationships. And so,
you know, I think I know that there's a, there's a lot of work that we can do on our own. There's a lot of stuff that we can, you know, that we can work on psychologically and mentally and physically and financially within ourselves. And we can do that work on our own. But when it comes to getting better at relationships, you have to do that in relationships. And that's the hard part because some people just suck at relationships. And it's, and, and I think that in today's world,
you know, relationships are challenging and there's a lot of, there's a lot of narrative and story out there that says, don't bother. It's not worth the rub. And, you know, just monk mode it and make your money and buy your Bitcoin and then retire in Dubai. And maybe that's where you find yourself a chick from the Middle East. Yeah. I think you're right, man. And, you know, the more that I see,
Um, it's even some of the conversations, not some of the conversations I've had in the past. I don't think I was dismissive of connection or, or love or anything like that, but there is definitely a risk when you look at the dynamics of relationships through such a raw materialist evolutionary psychology, human behavioral ecology lens, um,
they become very transactional. You don't talk about the phenomenon of being in love. Like, what does that feel like? What is the texture of your mind when you're besotted with somebody else? It's not... I don't want to hear about mate guarding or, like, comparative mate value or, like, cross-sex mind-reading failure or self-objectification. I don't want to hear about that. I want to hear about what does it feel like to be a person that is in love with another person and in union with them? Like, what's that like to have this...
strange, intimate, fearful, shameful, guilt-ridden, loving, magnificent thing. What's that like? And so few of the conversations, especially coming out of sort of the Manosphere side, but even my side as well, like it is largely bereft of that because
It's really difficult to define. How many thousands of years have poets and philosophers been trying to describe what love is? And we still have quite a crap definition of it. So I understand why it doesn't really lend itself to the very utilitarian, rational view of the world that we have right now. But increasingly, the more attention that I pay to that side of things, the more I realize that those seem to hold an awful lot of the missing answers. And I think that...
It's an uncomfortable realization that you can't fix all of your problems yourself because that feels like my agency has been ripped away from me. In a meritocracy where the winners are worthy of their successes, what are the losers worthy of? Well, they're worthy of their losses, right? Like it is ruthless to hear it.
But it seems to be true. Like, look, if you want to actually make this thing work, you need to step not just outside of your comfort zone, like do a heavier workout, like actually outside of your comfort zone, a different domain of discomfort, like doing salsa dancing or speaking on stage in front of people or opening up and trying to trust somebody in a relationship. And it seems like a lot of personal development...
a lot of crap personal development is prepared to push people very hard within domains that they're already comfortable within. So it's like get comfortable with the uncomfortable within the comfortable, as opposed to get comfortable with the uncomfortable in the uncomfortable, which is your relationship. It's your, it's your, your conversations with other people. Um, just to kind of round this out, one of the important things that you've spoken about is how you understand, um,
You weave this narrative together of what happened in childhood, how that can contribute to the way that you feel now, and then you sort of move forward from there with that information. It's very important for you to couch how you feel now in what happened previously. What happens if you don't have a particularly strong memory of your childhood? You don't have... You mentioned a number of serious formative incidents that occurred for you, and you could tell from there that this was the thing. But what if you're like, I don't know, man, like before 10 years old, I kind of...
I don't know, I don't really remember much. And then memory is kind of spotty after that. What do those people do? Yeah, great question. Because I think this is a very, very common question that guys have, which is, I don't remember much from my childhood. Or I think overall, my childhood was pretty good. And that's a pretty common theme that I hear. And yet they have all of these relational things.
issues that are getting in the way. And so what I usually say is you don't have to have this vast memory bank of what happened in your childhood. You know, I don't, I have one memory from when I was three, that was pretty formative and, and rough. Uh, and then I don't have a lot of memories between three and like,
Kind of like 10 to 12, but I do have the felt experience of what it was like growing up as a kid. I don't have a ton of like crystal clear memories, but I do have some general feelings and emotions and experiences from what it was like to be me as a kid.
And I think that if you work with good practitioners, you will find that you can actually find a lot of that within yourself. And if that still sounds hokey to you and you're like, "I don't know about that,"
Ask yourself the question, like, where did these patterns come from? These patterns that are showing up in my relationship, the pattern of sabotaging sex or the pattern of sabotaging communication or continuing to attract these gong shows, you know, like you have a part in that. So there is some origin to it. It didn't just manifest, manifest, oh God, I hate that word. It didn't just manifest out of nowhere. Yeah.
You know, it originated somewhere and it originated in an experience likely in your youth and in your formative years where you were learning how to do relationships and how to show up in relationships. And so...
You can ask yourself a few questions. Number one, you can ask yourself, what are some of my formative experiences or feelings growing up? What are some of my formative experiences or feelings growing up? So let go of memory. Let go of trying to locate some damaging moment. Ask yourself, what did it feel like to be in relationship with my mom or my dad?
What did I experience when I would get something wrong with my mom or my dad? What did I experience when I needed love or attention or validation from my mom or my dad? And you can just go down the list. And instead of trying to recall some very specific memory, you go for sensation. And a lot of the research shows, the book Body Keeps the Score, your body actually holds that experience in it.
And so you have to look for sensation over memories and you have to look for experience over some very clear memory of, you know, when your, uh, when your attachment was interrupted, because some people are going to have that where they just have those very clear interruptions, the memories of the interruptions. And for other people, it's just more of like, I just felt like I couldn't trust dad.
Or it just felt like mom was constantly smothering me and needing to tell me about how she was feeling and it felt suffocating. And so that can be more of a lived experience than any one particular memory. And for a lot of guys, it actually helps to...
to evoke some of those memories where they connect with the experience and the feeling first. And then they're like, oh, actually I do have this memory of X, Y, and Z. So we have to connect with the experience and the feeling first because, you know, you're, I like to say that like, just like your thoughts are the language of your mind, your emotions are the language of your body and your nervous system.
And we as men have largely not been taught to decipher the data and the information of our body. And so we haven't been taught how to speak the language of our nervous system.
And so we over index our mind and we get stuck and then we try and recall memories and then we get fucking frustrated and then we're like, F it. I just won't do it. I'll just be fine. And then we get into another relationship and that same damn pattern shows up again. And we're like, why is this happening? This is the next episode that I want to do with you, which is about integrating emotions, understanding what we're feeling. And it sounds so stupid. It sounds so stupid to say, how do you not know what you're feeling? Of course you're feeling it.
Like, how do you not know? And yet when you try and get people to describe, okay, and what are you feeling right now? I've like a thing. Is it a, is like, is it anger? Is it agitation? Is it frustration? Is it resentment? Is it bitterness? Is it like, you know, it's just this big block of something. And especially as guys, especially as guys, it is so, it's,
but so bad at this particular skill. Tell you one thing that might actually be useful. I'm sure that you've got an answer for this. Someone is in a relationship with somebody who is anxious or somebody is in a relationship with someone who is avoidant. What are the ways that that person can help an anxious or an avoidant person to improve, to come, to get into secure attachment? Great. I'm so glad that you asked this one.
Okay, if you are in a relationship with somebody who is the anxious partner, remember that that person struggles to trust themselves, struggles to regulate and soothe themselves, and struggles to see their own worth and value. So you can do a couple things. Number one,
you can identify when you think that they're feeling that anxiousness. Okay. And one thing that can be helpful is to actually inquire with the anxious person. Are you feeling anxious right now? Are you questioning whether or not, uh, you matter to me? You know, are you questioning whether or not you that like, I care about you, you know, those, those types of things can be very helpful because then that person would be like, yeah, actually I am feeling those things a lot. Uh, and, and
And then one big thing, do not try and solve it for them. Okay. This is a, this is a relational pattern that happens for a lot of couples when one of them is anxious is that the other person moves into an over-functioning role and tries to solve that problem for that anxious person. And it recreates the dynamic that they sometimes have felt in childhood where they had a helicopter parent solving all of their freaking problems.
So do not solve their problem. Instead, put it back on them. What do you think you need to do right now in order to feel better, in order to feel less anxious, in order to feel like you have worth or value? And they're probably going to try and put it back on you and say, well, I need you to X, Y, and Z, right?
And you have to use some discernment about, yeah, okay, I'm happy to tell you that I love you and I'm happy to tell you that I want to be with you. And what do you think you need to do? What do you feel like you need to do in order to develop some more confidence, some more self-esteem, some more trust?
that you have worth and value in our relationship. And let that person start to tell you what they think they need to do. Sometimes that is an incredibly, incredibly helpful step. The other thing is you can practice co-regulation with your partner. There's a ton of...
Other techniques outside of the one that I gave you, you can just look up co-regulation online. There's some great partnership exercises that you can do in your relationship that will help them reduce their anxiety if they are a person that genuinely struggles with anxiety. But that person will need to tell you what they are doing to regulate their anxiousness. And
And you can support them through that process. You can say and tell them, hey, I'm here for you as you go through this. I'm not going to go anywhere as you figure this out. Because the anxious person's greatest fear is if I don't figure this out, you're going to leave me.
And so you have to just reinforce with that person. I'm anxious about fixing my anxiousness. That's right. That's right. And it just piles up on top and on top and on top. And for a lot of women specifically in relationship, this is the demon that they carry, right? It's this debilitating anxiety of, am I enough or are you going to leave me for somebody else? So that's on the anxious side. On the avoidance side,
It's a little interesting and tricky because you cannot make an anxious person, make an avoidant person not be avoidant. They have to choose to lean in, to open up, to express, to take the risk. And it's hard because a lot of behaviors and things that you're going to quote unquote try and do with that avoidant person are gonna cause them to wanna shut down more.
So you can do a couple things. Number one, you can ask them if they are interested in maintaining connection on a consistent basis and if they're willing to do what they think it takes in order to maintain that connection. Open the conversation. Do they even want to do the work? Do they even want to lean in? Do they even want to face some of their fear?
Because if they don't, it's very likely that nothing that you can do, because I get a lot of questions from women, my husband, my boyfriend's avoidant, what can I do? If he's not willing to lean into his own or she's not willing to lean into her own discomfort,
and fear of connection, then it's just not gonna happen. There's nothing that you can do. So in some ways, and this is what I'll say, in some ways, the avoidant person puts their partner into the helpless position that they feel.
and that they felt growing up. The avoidant person puts their partner into the helpless position that they felt when they were put into a position of over-responsibility, when they were put into the experience of trying to solve a problem for a parent, right? You know, they're, they put into a parentified position and they have to try and solve something for their parent that they absolutely cannot solve because they're eight. So,
What else you can do is invitations, invitations, invitations, invitations. Create openings to connect with your avoidant partner without heavy expectations. Do not use threats. Do not use demands. Let go of that. What happens for a lot of partners in relationship to an avoidant is you have to do this or I'm going to leave you.
You have to go see a therapist. You have to read this book. I need you to X, Y, and Z. And for the avoidant, that entrenches their position. They're like, fuck you, I'm not doing anything then. I will show you how stubborn I can be. And so stop trying to threaten, stop trying to demand things, and reinforce, and this is super important if you get nothing else from dealing with avoidance, reinforce that that person has a choice.
and give them a choice as often as humanly possible. Hey, would you like to come give me a hug? Hey, would you like to have pizza for dinner tonight? Hey, do you wanna tell me how your day was? Versus tell me how your day was. Why won't you tell me how your day was? What's going on that you don't wanna tell me how your day was? No, do you want to tell me how your day went? Do you wanna talk about what's going on with your mom?
And you just keep opening the door and inviting that person to express, to connect, to be in relationship with you. That's the biggest thing that you can do.
Hell yeah. Connor Beaton, ladies and gentlemen. Connor, I love you. I think that the insights that you've got are so phenomenal and it is a very important antidote to a lot of awful advice on the internet. You work with tons of men and the opportunity to kind of learn what you have seen firsthand on the therapy floor, on the men's work floor, all the rest of it, I think is a total treat. So thank you for coming. Where should people go? They want to keep up to date with all the stuff you do, the books, the podcasts, the courses, all that stuff.
Yeah. I mean the, the best place is man talks.com. Um, we've got live events, uh, and retreats for guys. There's a book that I wrote called men's work, um, which we talked about last time. I really appreciate you having me on man. So yeah, man talks.com, uh, man talks on Instagram. Um,
um and your podcast right as well people should go check that out that's really good yeah yeah yeah and i did a deep dive like deep deep on on these subjects so love you too buddy thank you so much for having me back on it's such an honor to just jam with you and hang out and be bros i could talk about this all day dude i appreciate you until next time