The Prosecutor is Set to Debate the Felon with Abby Tracy
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Hey everyone, it's me, Reed Galen. As you may have noticed, I don't host the Lincoln Project podcast anymore, but I'm so excited to share with you my brand new show, The Homefront.

On the home front, you'll get the same incisive discourse about the pro-democracy movement from the smartest, most driven people in the fight today. If you're listening to this episode on the Lincoln Project podcast channel, I invite you to subscribe to the home front on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your shows. I want to say thank you to all of you in the pro-democracy movement, and I look forward to continuing our American journey together. And now, the home front.

Welcome to the Homefront. I'm your host, Reid Galen. Today, I'm joined by journalist and political reporter, Abigail Tracy. She's covered politics for a variety of outlets, including Inc. Magazine, Forbes, and most recently, Vanity Fair. She's a graduate of Northwestern University, Go Wildcats, and

And it's coming to us from Northeastern D.C. Abby, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. Now, before we get into today's episode, I just want to let you know that Abby will be joining us weekly through the election to discuss the headlines of the day and how the campaign is going. And so let's get started.

And so, Abby, thanks for joining us. And we look forward to having you on every week. Yeah. No, I'm I'm flattered that you'll have me. Well, listen, I'm the one that's flattered. So. All right. So, Abby, as we get going here, we're recording this. This is going to drop on Monday. So tomorrow, tomorrow night, there will be a presidential debate. Probably the second and final presidential debate would be my guess in Philadelphia between Congress.

Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump. We all know that the first presidential debate is how we got here, if we think about it that way, right? It was the first massive earthquake, tectonic event of campaign 2024. And so now here we are. There were all these battles over microphones and how people were going to stand and all this other stuff. And so, you know, from your perch,

You know, these are the sort of they can be make or break events. And we've seen that, unfortunately, for Joe Biden. But as you're looking at this from your lens, you know, how do you see Tuesday night playing out for both the Harris and the Trump campaigns?

Well, I think to begin with, you know, when we're looking at these rules around things like microphones or not, I'm not sure how much of an impact that's necessarily going to make. But I think what we saw, obviously, you know, with the Joe Biden and Donald Trump debate, that changed the race significantly.

incredibly quickly. Obviously, that kind of led to everything led to Biden stepping aside and all that. But I think really for the Harris campaign, what we're going to see on Tuesday night is the first real exercise in contrasts between her and Donald Trump. And I think it's a huge opportunity for Democrats as they kind of go into debate night, because I think, you know, one of the big issues around Joe Biden was the

that anytime there was going to be an appearance after the debate, the conversation, even if he did well, you saw this with the NATO summit when he made, you know, when he answered questions afterward, the conversation was always going to be about, okay, how was Joe Biden? Did Joe Biden seem fit for office? How were his answers? That was always going to cloud any public appearance post the debate for Joe Biden. And the conversation was never going to be able to go back to Donald Trump or Donald Trump's performance. Now that has totally shifted.

The fact that Harris is now at the top of the Democratic ticket, they're going to be able to have those conversations. And I do think you're going to see a conversation shift in terms of people talking about Donald Trump's fitness for office. And you're going to see him up on stage against Kamala Harris. This is kind of her arena, right? You know, as a former prosecutor and she's younger, she's quick. You know, there's a reason why the Harris campaign wanted to push for microphones on the entirety of the time because they wanted to catch her.

what Trump was saying. And they wanted to catch what she was saying. Like they want this opportunity to show here's Donald Trump, here's Kamala Harris, and here's why she should, you know, be president over him.

And I mean, we can assume based on, you know, Trump's lifelong behavior towards women, he doesn't really like women. He certainly probably doesn't like women of color. And he certainly doesn't like Kamala Harris, who we heard on, you know, captured, you know, iPhone video from his golf cart about, you know, he called her the B word. He's you know, he questioned, you know.

whether or not she's really black, all this other stuff, right? So he clearly already has internalized his disdain for her. But I'm curious...

You know, to your point about the prosecutor piece, you know, there was she was doing an OTR off the record stop at a coffee shop or something, I think, in Pittsburgh where she's doing debate prep. And one of the media asked, are you ready for the debate? She said yes. And so, you know, then you get into the whole debate prep thing, which which I tried to explain to my Democratic friends before the Biden debate. And I hope the Harris people have taken to heart is like, OK,

This is not one where you have binders of facts and figures and you have policy nerds talking about the GDP of 2021 and everything else, right? Like this is simply a match of, I'm going to call it wits Abby, because I'm not sure what the other appropriate word is, but his whole thing is going to get be to get under her skin, to rattle her, to make her look weak and unsure of herself. So from your perspective,

How how should they be preparing the vice president knowing that like this guy doesn't change? Right. Like there's not it's not like he's a chameleon. Right. He's a he's a snake. He sheds his skin, but it's still the same guy.

Yeah, I think, you know, you make a really good point. I don't think anybody going into this debate or any previous debates that had Donald Trump in them were really expecting like a substantive policy conversation or a real debate around it. It really is kind of, you know, the two of them playing off each other and kind of who that juxtaposition benefits in the end. And I think the key for Harris is to understand.

get under Trump's skin just as much as like his goal is to get under hers. I think the thing with Donald Trump, though, is you're not. And we've kind of seen this over the last couple of weeks. You know, the lines of attack from Democrats that have stuck the hardest are not the ones around, you know, him being a quote unquote, like threat to democracy or questions about his economic plan. It really is these other comments, you know, regarding him and his running mate, J.D. Vance, being quote unquote weird. Right.

doing really weird stuff and like crowd sizes. I think one of the things to remember with Donald Trump is like the way under his skin is not that typical of a traditional politician. Here's an individual obsessed with image, obsessed with his branding. And really the way to get under his skin is to kind of take shots at that. And these things that might seem petty to somebody else, but to Donald Trump are kind of paramount. And again, like crowd size, that's like one of the

cleanest lines of attack that Democrats have had success with. And I think on stage, you know, Kamala Harris has to like approach him with all the seriousness he deserves. Well, that's a really good point. But this is too, as something as the listeners have heard me say over the last couple of episodes and in the 300 or so I did before this is, is

you know, there's, there's this thing about the Democrats that like, they don't want to get down in the ditch with Trump. And I get it. But like, to your point about the crowd size thing, right? I mean, I,

If I were Vice President Harris, I could say we don't have a crowd here tonight. Donald, you know what that feels like, you know, like something like that, right, where he would the veins like would start popping out of his forehead under the pancake makeup. But Democrats have a really hard time with that because they see it as juvenile, not dignified. But the truth is, is like.

He's juvenile. He's undignified. He's a he's a playground bully. When's the last time a playground bully, you know, the kid in the glasses on the playground? And this is now showing my age, you know, pushed his glasses up and said to the bully, you know, it's really bad for your political, your your educational career, for you to beat up on kids that are, you know, like that's not how it works. Right.

Yeah. And I think that's sort of what the test for Harris is going to be. Again, like this isn't an individual. Obviously, you know, the election needs to be taken seriously. People need to take the election seriously. But like when it comes to Donald Trump on stage, like it's

I don't know if people have missed the movie that we've been watching over the last six years, but frankly, more than six years. I can't even... Time is flat right now. Nine. Yes. Almost a decade. Oh, goodness. But so the reality is he's not going to...

approach the debate with a seriousness around like substance. And I think it is going to be around showmanship. I do think that Kamala Harris has an opportunity to kind of go toe to toe with him on that. But recognizing that this isn't your typical politician and he isn't going to, you know, fall on his sword over policy, but branding more than anything.

Yeah. And there's a professor out at Berkeley, a guy named Stephen Fish, who wrote a book earlier this year about frankly, about how Democrats should campaign more like Republicans. So it's almost a how to guide for Democrats. But one of the things, Abby, that he discusses in his book is the idea that, you know,

You know, back to the how Democrats campaign as candidates is that, you know, Republicans and Trump in particular are are comfortable with the concept of dominance. I am in charge here. I am telling you what's going to happen. I'm telling you what's what you're going to do.

Right. And he that will be on full display during this debate. And I think that you have seen flashes of that from the vice president. She's not she's no shrinking violet. So it'll be interesting to see as he's trying to overshadow her and literally put her into eclipse.

Right. How she tries to rise to that occasion. And you even saw to your point about about the optics of this. You know, he said there will be no, you know, no lifts, no nothing allowed, you know, behind the podiums to make them look of equal height. Right. He's obviously taller than her and he wants that. Right. He wants that.

On the on the one shot of both of them right of the wide shot of both of them. He wants that picture of him being taller than her. Like to your point, these are the things that matter to him. And in his own reptilian way, I mean, he's not wrong. Right? Yeah. No, I mean, look.

Donald Trump won and, you know, he won the electoral college in 2016 for a reason. Like, it isn't that these things aren't important, but they're just far more important to Donald Trump than perhaps a traditional politician in ways of policy and kind of he is about the flair.

and is about the presentation. That is who he has been his entire adult life. That is who he was when he was on The Apprentice. That is who he was when he's Donald Trump, you know, real estate magnate in New York City. Like this is his arena, his presentation. But I actually kind of to back up to sort of this idea of, you know, Kamala Harris sort of holding her own with them. We are already seeing that. And we're seeing it specifically around the debate itself. If you recall, you know,

after she supplanted Joe Biden at the top of the ticket, the Trump campaign waffled on whether there was going to be a debate at all. You know, prior to Joe Biden dropping out, they had agreed to this ABC News debate. This was on the schedule. After Harris, you know, took over as, you know, Democratic presidential nominee, you saw the Trump campaign kind of back off, raise questions as to whether they would appear or not. And then you had that bizarre press conference from Donald Trump where he laid out three dates

one of which had an earlier date for a debate that was going to be hosted, you know, by his home team, Fox News. So but that didn't happen because Harris came out. And, you know, when she was asked about this, she came out and she said, we agreed to the debate on September 10th, hosted by ABC News. And her and her campaign didn't back down from that. They didn't, you know, bend to the Trump campaign's will to have this earlier debate on.

On his home turf. And so I think we're already seeing from Harris and the Harris campaign kind of holding their own with Trump in terms of, you know, also getting what they want around, you know, the optics, the presentation and kind of, you know, the debate more broadly.

Well, and I would say just on the Harris campaign front, you know, since since she ascended to the top of the ticket, you know, their their press operation, their communications operation, their rapid response operation, you know, they are pulling no punches. They are doing exactly what it is they need to the Trump campaign, which is whenever it is he says something crazy. Right. They immediately put out a statement that talks about how insane it was.

was. They immediately put out videos that demonstrate, you know, whatever nuttiness he just came up with, like, this is why it's crazy. And so, you know, I think that was a very different thing from the Biden campaign, which is, as you know, you've heard a million times, Abby, you've had to deal with on your end of the spectrum is, you know, campaigns are reflections of their candidates. The Joe Biden campaign wasn't going to go out and have a brat summer moment, right? It wasn't going to be coconuts and palm trees, right? That's just not who he ever was. But

She is, as you said, younger, far more dynamic than he is. And I would also say this is that remember when they said that they were waffling on the debate, they they did that because they still thought they were probably going to win in a walk, even if it was Harris. And then as Harris and then Waltz, as their momentum picked up, as the money picked up, as the enthusiasm and the attention picked up.

You know, even Trump, who I guarantee you does not probably want to do this debate, said, you know, if we don't do it, there's no possible way that we're going to win because the rest of the campaign will be when the time came. Donald Trump was too scared to debate a woman. Right. Like that's that that will become and his own supporters will.

will will take him to the woodshed for it. So I think that's one of those things where, again, they were backed into corners. Trump is always at his worst when he is left without options. Right. And I think that is to the Harris campaign's advantage as we watch this. I think the other part, too, is that, you know, the first debate, you know, was supposed to be the idea that, OK, if Biden could go out there for 90 minutes and demonstrate that Trump was nuts, that it would be a death blow to Trump's campaign.

Right. The reverse happened. It was also on CNN. Right. It wasn't I don't remember what night it was. I was at my daughter's performance. And so I was just getting, you know, panic text at, you know, 7, 12 p.m. Mountain Time as the thing went south on us. But now, you know, it's ABC. I think it's going to be. I think I saw was I was watching football yesterday. I mean, it said it was going to be simulcast.

at least on Fox network. Right. So this is also going to be a much broader audience. Right. The entire American electorate is now going to be you're not going to have to have cable. I mean, most people have cable, but it's going to be on an over the air network. It's going to have, you know, two moderators, 90 minutes. And, you know, I don't think there's going to be a crowd, which, again, I think works against Trump. Right. I don't think he works. I mean, most politicians don't work well to an empty room, but.

You know, he certainly needs that sort of constant affirmation and he's not going to get it from anybody.

Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I think you're right. I think not having a crowd hurts Donald Trump because he loves that. That's sort of like what fuels him when he's on the campaign stage, when he's on the stump, you know, when he's doing these, you know, ad hoc press conferences that he's, you know, had a tendency to do lately. But I do think like kind of back to your point and back to this idea of, you know, this being a real opportunity for the Harris campaign in terms of it being an exercise in contrast. So

Some of those lines of attack that we're seeing, to your point, you know, from the rapid response team, Harris's rapid response team, you know, a lot of them are raising questions about Donald Trump's age, you know, his mental acuity, his fitness for office. The thing that's so different about Harris being at the top of the ticket and Biden being at the top of the ticket is like that argument the Biden campaign was never going to be able to make.

Right. Because Joe Biden's age was an intractable fact. They can't change it. They can't make him younger. So it was always going to be this elephant in the room, which then, you know, you know, hamstrung him and his campaign in terms of these other lines of attack against Donald Trump and, you know, his fitness for office. And I really think that one of the things that we're going to see from Harris is kind of trying to thrust that into stark relief on Tuesday night.

Well, and I want to I want to go back to one thing you said about you've mentioned a couple of times, which is the contrast. I mean, if you think about it, Abby, I mean, there is it's hard to find a different or more stark relief when it comes to contrasts than Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, both literally and figuratively. Right. I mean, it will be very clear because, you know, obviously television is a visual medium. There's so many cues is contrast.

You know, you're going to have you're going to decide, is it going to be this old white man in makeup with fake colored hair?

Or a younger woman of color, right, who is confident and competent and coming to the fore, right? Like there's not going to be any question before. As you said before, it was two old white guys. And what did we hear from a majority of voters? I don't want either of them. Right. Like I don't I don't want these are not the choices I want. This is not how I wanted this to go. Now people have a real choice.

Right. Which is OK. Do you want four years of insanity? Right. Or do you want four years of competence? Now, look, the presidency, as you know, is is is a study in every day is something new. Right. There's there's a reason why Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and.

Barack Obama all went into the office with dark hair and came out with white hair. Now, Trump went in with yellow hair, came out with yellow hair. Biden went in with white hairs, coming out with white hair. But for the most part, I mean, it is the most crushing political job that humanity's ever invented. Yeah, no, absolutely. So obviously, you know, it's it is going to be a challenge. And I think

One of the key things, too, is looking at Harris and kind of the infrastructure that she does have around her coming out of the Biden administration as vice president. Like, I really do believe that.

What she had was, you know, a front row seat to what being president looks like, especially during a very tumultuous time. Obviously, we were coming out of COVID when her and Joe Biden took office. You know, the economy was tough. There were all these like problems and things going on. And really, she had like a front row seat to that. And again, she's not in her 70s.

Like this is a young individual who has a lot of experience, you know, obviously working statewide in California as senator and now as vice president. And I just think that when you're looking at this juxtaposition between the two, I think you're right. It couldn't be more stark. And what we're going to have is kind of like racist grandpa yelling from the front of his porch. Like, I just don't I just don't really see it playing out any other way than that, because that's really, you know.

What we've seen from Donald Trump. Well, you know, it will be it will be 90 minutes. I didn't watch the last one. As I said, I was doing something more important, but I will watch this one and then we will report back. OK, so, Abby, I want to switch gears pretty significantly. So you are from the great state of Minnesota.

Yes.

What is it? I mean, again, you have again, you're from Minnesota. You went to Northwestern. Right. So you moved to a pretty big city and now you live in Washington, D.C. And you've been on the national political scene from some time. But why is it that when your colleagues and I don't want to get you in too much trouble, go to western Wisconsin or northern Michigan or, you know, southeastern Pennsylvania? Why is it feel like they're conducting more of an anthropological experiment here?

As opposed to like talking to people who are actual Americans. It's a great question. Yes. So I'm from Minnesota. Obviously, you know, for me, it's very tough when I hear people even confuse Minnesota and Wisconsin. They are different places, people. But I think like it is so fascinating, sort of this idea of like.

you know, the quote unquote, like average American voter and that they are, you know, in these diners tucked away in like Northern Minnesota. And like you get, you know, these journalists, as you said, kind of like come in and interview them as if that, you know, they have all the tea leaves and all the answers to like the politics of the day. But it is, I don't know. It's a frustrating, it's a frustrating thing because I think so many of these folks actually

are, you know, very informed voters. They're paying very close attention to what's going on. I think just when you're a little bit outside these bubbles and I'm talking, you know,

literal bubbles. When you're in places like DC and New York City, the conversations are different. We're living in an urban environment versus I grew up in a suburban environment. There are different things that go on. And I do definitely have a frustration when people refer to places like Minnesota as a flyover state. And I think even when we're looking at Minnesota right now, it's been kind of fascinating to see Tim Waltz

his ascension as a vice presidential pick, I think people are actually really looking at Minnesota and, you know, how it is actually quite an interesting state politically. I mean, if you recall, Minnesota went Rubio and Bernie Sanders in the primary. And so I don't, you know, people sort of this idea that, you know, they, people tend to lump Minnesota and Wisconsin together. Wisconsin's like a much more, uh,

reddish purple state than Minnesota. Minnesota is the land of Paul Wellstone and now Tim Walz. They passed an incredibly progressive agenda. Democrats have a trifecta of power, the governorship and then both the state senate and state legislature. So they were able to pass crazy progressive legislation as a result. And I think people are a little surprised when you see somebody like Tim Walz coming from a state like Minnesota where they kind of assume...

And the politics are maybe a little further, further to the right or more conservative than they actually are on the ground in reality. Right. And I mean, you know, so I was watching last weekend, Abby, I was watching Grumpy Old Men, which I had not watched in many, many years and set in Wabasha.

Minnesota. And so, you know, this is this is in the early 90s. But, you know, it's still a great movie. But, you know, the fishing shacks and my daughter's like, do they really have those? I'm like, they had them then. They must be incredibly tricked out now. Right. Yes. But there's there is a lot of tradition. Right. And there probably are a lot of members of the Democratic Farm Labor Party. That's what the Democratic Party in Minnesota is called the DFL, who are gun owners, who are hunters.

Right. And so that's the other part, too, is that.

But the difference between red and blue and conservative and liberal, right? They're not stark lines if they're lines at all, right? Like you can, you could be a hunter who said, no, I don't think people should have AR-15s, right? But you're going to go out and you're going to take your buck every year, right? And you're going to take your son to do that. That doesn't make you a gun nut. That makes you somebody who has a tradition and all that other stuff. And so I think that's the other part too, is that,

You know, I mean, you saw that makes you a Tim Waltz. That's right. He is that individual. You know, he is somebody, you know, since he's been governor, he passed substantive legislation around gun control in the state. But he also is a hunter himself who owns guns. Right. And and so now it's, you know, that that's and that was the other thing, too, is that I thought that was fascinating about about Waltz's choices is.

you know, he does speak to them. You know, he is, he is a guy who went to a local college. He was a teacher. He was a coach. You know, he got elected to Congress. And then he's elected governor, but you know, he, he looks like, and he speaks the language of not only Minnesota and Wisconsin and Northern Michigan, but also Iowa and Nebraska and the Dakotas, right. Really anything East of the Mississippi or excuse me, East of the Rockies, I should say, right. It,

knows a Tim Waltz. Right. And I thought it was fascinating the other day when somebody asked him about something and he talked about his gutters, right? The gutters on, I think it was the gutters on the governor's mansion. Right. And like, if you own a home and this is not just for flyover country, but if you own a home and,

It is a constant work in progress. It doesn't matter whether or not your house is 100 years old or they just finished it and they handed you the keys. There's always something wrong with it. There's always something broken. And I thought that that was one of those things, too, that I think a lot of American voters, at least I hope, haven't seen or heard from someone on the national stage in a long time is like, OK.

like things that people deal with. Now gutters could be relatively speaking on the, on the lower end of issues, but that's like a normal thing, right? That's not someone talking about, Oh yeah, you know, I was at the Bombay club and, you know, we were having dinner with so-and-so or, you know, I was a 30 rock cause I did a live hit on MSNB, like all of that stuff that, you know, is like interesting, but not has no impact on you. As you said, I hate the word average American. I hate that expression. I like to say individual American because I,

you know, we're all imbued with these certain things that come from being born here and raised here, many of which we take for granted. You know, but I think it's also one of those things where, you know,

But there are these these are also the voters who are going to make the decision. These are the states that are going to decide the presidency. And so that's one of those things, too, where I'm always surprised that like they only it's like in Iowa. Right. And then I promise I'll shut up. Abby is like they only show up once every like three and a half years before the caucuses and go.

These people called Iowans are normal, too. No, they don't just eat fried Oreos at the state fair and they don't walk around with pork chops in their pockets. Right. Like, it's just one of those things that makes me nuts, especially because I'm pretty sure I've been to all ninety nine counties in Iowa. If I haven't, I've got a few to go. And it's just it's just one of those things where, you know, that that funhouse mirror just sort of distorts everything.

Mm hmm. Well, to start with, have you ever had a deep fried Oreo? Because they are quite delicious. Oh, yes, of course. You could deep fry. Okay, good. And I love pork chops. Don't get me wrong. Yeah, I think, you know, kind of back to the gutter point. It's a relatability. And I think what you're seeing is that Waltz brings that to the ticket. You know, Kamala Harris, she is, you know,

She's different. She's relatable in a different way. And, you know, I think in terms of the challenges and obstacles that she's had to overcome, I think a lot of Americans can identify with her on that. And then you have her with Waltz on the ticket. And I do think it was a great choice. You know, obviously, Republicans kind of have tried to cast Tim Waltz as this like kind of, you know,

California Democrat like that has seemed to be you know they're trying to like tie her to Harris or tie him to Harris his record to Harris and you know bringing up all of these things around you know the crazy progressive policies that he signed in allows governor and he did he did sign into law you know a number of really really progressive pieces of legislation but

But this kind of line of attack against him that he's this out of touch California liberal doesn't work because you have Tim Walz out there talking about things like gutters and like going to the state fair with his daughter and minding your own damn business and minding your own damn business. And even just like when you look at his filings with FEC in terms of like his assets, like his assets are much more in line with like.

you know, a normal voter than J.D. Vance's, Donald Trump's, even Harris's. You know what I mean? Like there is this just like innate relatability to Tim Waltz. Like he is like all my friends' dads. Like it's very like he has like the Midwest dad vibe locked. Right. Well, let me let me ask you that, because, you know, Harris, you know,

You know, Harris didn't go to an Ivy League school either for undergrad or grad school. Waltz went to, like I said, a local college, I think in Minnesota, didn't go to grad school.

So this is in a way to like, you know, the the the normals versus the the Ivy League. Right. I mean, Trump went to Wharton. Vance went to Yale. And so like this is the you know, and even Biden. Right. I mean, he wasn't he wasn't an Ivy League guy in any way either. So.

You know, that's an interesting part, too, is like, do you think that there's some that and I'm going to again ask your colleagues, do you think there's some sort of like side eye that that, you know, maybe the national political media gives from from two candidates who weren't sort of brought up in the in the bosom of the elite? Yeah, you know, I think it's I think it's a good question, but I really.

I actually think it has been oftentimes the media that is kind of calling this out, you know, calling this narrative out, because really what you've seen is like Donald Trump and J.D. Vance try to, you know, cast themselves as like the everyman and, you know, and like fighting for, you know, the disenfranchised blue collar American worker. Like that's really, you know, you see Vance, you know,

talking about his meemaw and like hillbilly elegy. And I really think that what you actually have seen from the media is especially, you know, since Vance was picked as Trump's VP running mate, and then also as like Waltz was picked as Harris's, I think the media has actually kind of called out and called in a question, hey, JD Vance, no, actually, you went to Yale. And also to kind of just be like, and here's Waltz and like you see Waltz, I think he's

kind of done a good job. He's pretty quick with those soundbites. And, you know, he tried to draw the contrast himself with J.D. Vance. I forget what he said. You know, there was something about Rednecks and Yale that he had that was a pretty quick, pretty good quip against J.D. Vance. So I do think that there is

Yeah. Going on around kind of that. Yeah. And just as an aside to I mean, it's it's really interesting you bring that up because whether or not it's Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, Tom Cotton, Ron DeSantis. Right. All of these people who espouse these sort of, you know, hyper populist views or means, for lack of a better way to put it, you know, in the wake of in Donald Trump's wake.

They're all the elite. Right. They all went to Ivy Leagues. Right. They all, you know, Holly taught it like the St. Paul's School. Right. Which is like 600 years old or something. DeSantis, you know, like again, and that's just one of those things where, yeah, they're they're trying so hard to distance themselves from that. But of course, they probably wouldn't be where they are without it. Right.

Right. And so that's that's a very interesting thing. All right. Let's let's talk crazy for a second, Abby. And so I want to read this to you. Ready for it. Donald Trump. Let's see. This is nine seven twenty four at six oh one p.m. on his truth social quote.

Cease and desist in all caps. I, together with many attorneys and legal scholars, am watching the sanctity of the 2024 presidential election very closely because I know better than most the rampant cheating and skullduggery that has taken place by the Democrats in the 2020 presidential election. It was a disgrace to our nation, exclamation point.

Therefore, the 2024 election where votes have just started being cast will be under the closest professional scrutiny. And when I win all caps, those people that cheated all caps will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, which will include long term prison sentences so that this depravity of justice does not happen again. We cannot let our country further devolve into a third world nation and we won't all caps.

Please be aware. Please beware that this legal exposure extends to lawyers, political operatives, donors, illegal voters and corrupt election officials. Those involved in unscrupulous behavior will be sought out, caught and prosecuted at levels unfortunately never seen before in our country. Well.

I guess I assume I'm on that list, Abby. So that's that's I'm sure I'm guilty of some sort of skullduggery when it comes to Donald Trump. But this seems to me to be something that we've tried to talk about, you know, maybe in the anti-Trump, never Trump pro-democracy circles, which is this election is not going to be over on November 5th.

you know, even if Donald Trump loses on election day, you know, as soon as those polls close, like I think there's a lot of speaking of skullduggery and nefariousness that's likely to go on. And even if Donald Trump is declared the loser by various states, secretaries of state by the media, we should not assume that anything's going to be quote unquote normal between, you know, election day and let's say January 6th, 2025. Yeah.

So, you know, give us a sense of how you see that, because this is one of those things he did it in 2016. Right. Right. Said if I lose to Hillary, it's because it was stolen. He did it again in 2020, where he then attempted to, you know, orchestrate a coup, you know, to stop the certification of the election in on January 6, 21. And now he's doing it again. Right.

My concern, Abby, is that like he knows that if he loses all of the things that he's been trying to avoid, the consequences of for 80 years are now all going to come to a head. So how do you see that? And and how do you suggest that both our listeners and maybe some of your colleagues in the media should cover that? Because it's not normal. It's not healthy. And I think it's also encouraging those people, maybe not in an organized fashion like we saw in 21, but in a stochastic fashion.

lone wolf fashion for people to go out and do things they should not do because this is not, as Charlie Sykes said on our last show, not a dog whistle, but a foghorn. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's very troubling to start with.

I will say I'm not convinced that Donald Trump himself wrote that post. It feels like 100 percent. Right. Just because of the use of, well, one skullduggery, but sheer lack of typos. But I think, like, honestly, the fact that, you know, even if that's true, it does point to this being a strategy like this is a Trump campaign strategy.

strategy, you know, to kind of sow this distrust in the election, raise questions about election integrity. Like it is a absolute strategy. You know, that was what we saw it. As you said, we saw it in 2016. We saw it again in 2020. Obviously, in 2020, the results of kind of this sowing of discord were terrible.

with the attack on the Capitol on January 6th. So it is very troubling and it is very scary. And I think you make a very kind of critical point here, which is like the election is not going to be

or, you know, things regarding the election is not going to be over, you know, after people cast their ballots. And because I think we're no matter what, you know, kind of the period to be most concerned about, I do believe is between election day and the inauguration as it was, as

as it was, you know, back in 2020. I think one kind of critical difference that we do have here is Donald Trump is not currently president. Joe Biden is president. So at that time, like he did have the president, like being president, that was kind of his pulpit. And he had all the, he had all of the authority and, and, you know, assets that came along with him. Yeah. So I do think that that's kind of like one positive thing to draw contrast to, but I think, you know,

even just rewind the tape, you know, back to before kind of Joe Biden fell off in the polls. This was always the concern that there would be kind of, you know, this repeat of some of this language and, you know, Trump raising questions around, you know, stolen elections. And we saw that, you know, obviously when it was a very tight race initially between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, you saw him doing this fast forward, you know, obviously Joe Biden slipped in the polls, but like you've really seen another ramp up.

Now that Harris has kind of closed the gap that existed between Biden and Trump. I think, you know, a New York Times poll came out yesterday or today that had Trump at 48 percent nationally and Kamala Harris at 47 percent nationally. And very similar, you know, very similar margins, which is in the margin of error, you know, in these key battleground states. It is going to be a close battleground.

I think that's undeniable at this point. And I think a close election does equal a contested election. But I think it's really important kind of between now and the election for the media and, you know, for individuals in positions of power or kind of with these microphones to highlight that this is really dangerous rhetoric that we are seeing from Donald Trump, you know, threats of his enemies, strafing.

stolen elections, all of this, it is very troubling. And I think we're also seeing some red flags elsewhere nationally. I'm not sure how closely you've been paying attention to the Georgia State Board of Elections, you know, where they've, you know, they've delegated this pretty important power to local election officials to be able to certify or not certify election results. That's raised a lot of questions. You know, you've seen kind of

delays in certification of election over the last couple months, year. And there are a lot of these reports around election skeptics who are in positions as poll workers and election officials across the country. There is some stuff happening that are really troubling signs, especially when you have former President Trump also saying all these things and raising doubts or

trying to raise doubts around election integrity. It's certainly a scary time. Well, and I mean, I think you made the most important point about

That I have heard now, maybe people have sort of said it and I haven't heard it, but I think I think that oftentimes, you know, to your point about the strategy that it often gets ascribed to Trump being crazy. Trump does not wanting to lose Trump, never believing he could lose. But to your point, it is a strategy and it's not just a strategy of the campaign. To your point about the poll workers and all of that stuff, you know, you know, we've heard a lot about Project 2025, right? That's a that's something that started in 2021. Right.

Right. The people who are organized, you know, I mean, Steve Bannon said we're going to get all these poll workers out there. Right. The Texas legislature and Greg Abbott changed the rules in Texas as far as poll workers are concerned. So poll workers are far more liable for any of the actions they take, even though they're just trying to maintain a safe and orderly thing than election observers who can basically do anything they want and get away with it.

Right. And so I think that's the other part, too, is that sometimes, in fact, oftentimes, Abby, what my what I don't think gets covered enough and what my friends on the Democratic side of the aisle don't understand enough is this is a movement.

It is well, it is well funded. It is well staffed. These are not stupid people. Right. And they understand exactly what's at stake. And I would say this, even if Donald Trump were to lose closely or badly. Right. There's decades of work that have gone into this and billions of dollars in investment. It's not like these people are just going to fold up their tents because Donald Trump lost and said, OK, well, we'll try it again in 100 years. Right. And so that's the other part, too, which is.

If Donald Trump loses, right, I could make an argument that the first thing that like the right wing MAGA, because I think MAGA continues in some form, even without Trump and Trump, I also don't think is going away, even if he loses, is that, you know, they will now turn their ire towards then President Harris, right, as a woman of color to say and do awful things in her direction. Right. Because.

Frankly, you know, if I'm being if I'm putting myself in my most cynical form, Abby, and I promise I'll shut up, is that for the evangelicals are the right wing wackos. Right. They're a lot better off with a President Harris than they are with a President Trump because they don't want to be in charge of anything. Right. They want to be against everything. And it's really hard to be against everything when you're responsible for the entire government. No, absolutely. I think you make a couple of key points. So this is sort of a thing.

You just reminded me of something. So one of my favorite articles actually written about Trump that I think speaks to the way in which Trump kind of sees the world was actually written by Golf Digest. So it was an article written for Golf Digest that really interviewed all of these individuals that played golf with Donald Trump.

And they came forward and, you know, many were on the record saying that Donald Trump cheated. Yeah.

During his golf games, I think, you know, this has been pretty well documented that he does this. But I guess, you know, and this is obviously not verbatim, but one of kind of the key quotes from the piece was that, you know, one of these individuals, I think, kind of called Trump out or, you know, kind of acknowledged that the cheating happened. And Trump's response was, well, everybody's cheating. Yeah. So I think that really speaks to the way in which Trump does actually see

Right. Right.

We are just not getting away with it like the Democrats are. Like, I do believe that there is a part of Donald Trump that truly believes that narrative, just because I do think he kind of approaches the world as, well, everybody's cutting corners. So I'm going to cut corners.

And I think you kind of it's important to sort of take that and kind of take that framing around how I see stuff. And really, I think it buttresses this argument that, you know, it is a strategy to try to, like, raise questions before votes are even being cast. You know that there are all these issues in the election like it is a Trump strategy and he's seen it be effective, particularly in firing up his base. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting if we if we take it back to strategy, and I think that's such a key point, is that they had spent years, right, making Joe Biden and Hunter Biden their

equally as guilty and dirty as the Trump family. There was the Biden crime family. Well, you know, yes. So, yeah, to your point. So we cut corners. We did things, you know, but everybody else is doing. Look, even Joe Biden's room. Remember going back to 2019. Remember when he dispatched Rudy Giuliani to Ukraine, like the whole purpose of that was to, quote unquote, go find dirt on Joe Biden. Of course, in true Trump fashion, he's

You know, he got caught. So his attempt to kill Joe Biden in the crib, politically speaking, you know, blew up in his face. If he had not done that and there were rumors coming out of Ukraine, maybe the Democrats would have taken care of him themselves. Right. But he didn't allow that because he couldn't allow that. But I think that's the whole part, too. And then let me just say this is as someone who's a former staffer like their his whole team's in on it.

Right. And I know a lot of these people. And, you know, I wrote an op ed for The Washington Post right before Election Day 2020 saying, I know you people. If he says that he didn't lose, you're going to cross the river with him. And they did. And these people have to. Right. And it's so I would just say this. It's both frustrating, angering and disheartening, Abby, to see that like.

This guy has an incredible effect on the people around him, which is to your point about cutting corners or being crooked, right? Well, you know, the rationalizations just come fast and furious. And it's just, I'd like to say I understood it after all these years of doing this, but I still don't because I have to assume that like when Chris LaCivita looks in the mirror, as scary a thing as that must be for him, that he knows this isn't okay, but he's going to do it anyway.

Yeah, yeah. I really do think that there is kind of this culture within the GOP right now of enabling the individual. And I think, you know, kind of when we're looking at looking at kind of the Democratic Party versus the Republican Party, right.

This kind of come what we've when we look back at kind of what happened, you know, between the like handing off of the baton from Joe Biden to Kamala Harris versus what we're seeing from the Republican Party at this time. Like that's really where you see sort of the difference between the two parties, I think, currently, you know.

For the Joe Biden stuff, a lot of the calls were coming from inside the House. You know, these were allies. These were individuals close to him, you know, kind of Democratic Party like diehards that were raising questions around Joe Biden, his age, his mental acuity and really like whether he would be able to win in November. Obviously, polls were sending troubling signals and all that.

What you've seen in contrast from the Republican Party is since Trump, even before really, but like since Trump won the Republican nomination or the Republican primary, just rallied the troops. Everybody is kind of closed ranks around him. Like nobody's raising questions. Like everybody has kind of fallen back in line behind Donald Trump, despite the fact that he lost in 2020. But it's really indicative of his kind of continued grip on the party right now. But you really saw...

I think such a difference between Republicans raising questions around, you know, his fitness, you know, his ability to serve as president again versus kind of what you saw from Democrats following Joe Biden's debate, debate performance, you know, really like, again, like the calls were coming from inside the house. And I think that there's like a culture of enabling that you're seeing from the Republican Party that you aren't really seeing from the Democratic Party.

Right. And, you know, the the thing about the Republicans, especially this version of them, is, you know, if if Trump gets in trouble, they double down, they triple down. They always go further to the darkness. They never they never call him out again. You know, and I think that's right. All right, Abby, I'm going to put you on the spot here for the folks who are just getting to know you on this episode. Tell us one thing about you that we don't know. Oh.

I don't know. That's a hard thing. I'm terrified of escalators that aren't moving. Really? Yeah, I don't know why they freak me out. I understand that they're basically then just a staircase, but there's something about it that really freaks me out. Do you think it's a fear that it might start while you're on it?

Probably. I feel like when I was a kid, my mom was always warning me about getting your shoelaces and shoes stuck in the escalator. So I think I have probably an irrational fear around that.

you know, some of those childhood warnings that sort of stick with you. Well, because as the steps go into the ground, right, or into the top, whatever it is, like, it looks like something is eating. It would eat you, right, if you got caught. Like, you would get sucked down into the netherworld. Well, I think that's a totally legitimate concern, right? I don't know. It's strange that it's more unsettling when the escalator stops than when it's moving. But, you know, I, you know,

We'll see. Something to bring up in therapy. Absolutely. Well, Abby, listen, thanks for joining me. Where can our listeners, your listeners, find you on the interwebs if you dare to go there? Yeah, no. I'm on Twitter or X, I guess, formerly Twitter at Abigail Tracy. And then I'm on Instagram at Abby Tracy.

All right. As always, gang, you can find me on Substack, also the home front and on Twitter and TikTok at Reed Galen on threads and Instagram at Reed underscore Galen USA. Abby, thanks for joining me today. Thanks so much for having me. We'll see you next week and everybody else. We'll see you next time.