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Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. You know, I have a message for our MAGA friends. You were not allowed to be surprised. Oh my gosh, you're in the finding out phase? Well, guess what? You know why you got to the finding out phase? Because you fucked around. Here's the deal.

I'm starting to see people in MAGA world and outside of the normal political stuff on social media too, realizing that, oh my God, these peanut farmers and soybean farmers in Alabama and in Georgia, the product that they sold to feed starving children that went through USAID, that the government's not buying it anymore. That's on y'all.

Donald Trump did that. Get your little fucking sticker like you did on every gas tank in America, every gas pump in America, and put it on your forehead. Trump did that to you. For all of you who think, oh, well, I trust Lord Elon the Mighty with my social security data, when these fucking weirdo kids, several of whom are involved in hacker collectives, start leaking your personally identifiable information, because nothing that gets copied off a server ever only gets one copy, y'all.

When that starts rolling up and you get defrauded, that's on you. You're not allowed to be surprised anymore. When Donald Trump says and does things that cost you, when you find out suddenly that your community isn't going to get that road or that bridge because they hate the infrastructure bill, that's on you. You're not allowed to be surprised anymore.

When you find out that you're not going to get your disability or your Medicare or your Medicaid or your social security at the same level you thought, that's on you. You're not allowed to be surprised anymore because y'all did it. You went and fucked around and now you are finding out. When you find out that your kid, who you thought was never going to have to go to war, gets sent to Gaza to die for Donald Trump's real estate empire,

You're not allowed to be surprised anymore. That's on you. You did that. You made that world. When you find out that the economy is going to go in the shitter because China decided, well, we got a strong economy too, so we're going to put the tariffs back on you. And as some MAGA folks are starting to discover the order that they placed from Timu or Wish.com or wherever the hell,

Oh, wait, there's a tariff in there that you have to pay? The Chinese aren't paying that tariff? Well, there is a shocker. When you're an exporter of timber or corn or hogs, sending food to China, sending materials to China, and they have a tariff for your product, and suddenly you're no longer economically competitive, that's on you. You did that. You voted for the guy who promised you he would do that. You're not allowed to be surprised.

When you find out that the university in your community or in your state suddenly has lost its status, suddenly has lost all its research grants for things that you like, you're not allowed to be surprised. When you find out in a couple of years that the research that was being done through NIH to cure cancer or Alzheimer's or any number of diseases just disappeared, just up and left, just is gone.

Because Elon Musk has a hard-on against NIH and the weirdo anti-vaxxers hate NIH, you're not allowed to be surprised anymore. When the things that Trump told you he would do hurt you, and yes, MAGA, you are the ones who will get the hurt the most. I promise you. Rich people don't give a shit. When they cut taxes on Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and David Sachs and God knows who else,

but they tax your kid's student loan aid, but they raise your taxes, but they keep the ban on the state and local tax deductions for high-priced real estate, that's on you. You chose this. Don't forget, you chose this future. You chose this world. You're not allowed to be surprised when the guy who says, I'm going to hurt you, hurts you. When the guy who says, I'm going to beat you, beats you.

You're not allowed to be surprised anymore. You're not allowed to be surprised that the things that are going to happen and the consequences that are going to follow. You want to fire 30, 40, 50, 60, 70% of the federal workforce? You are allowed to want to do that. But you're not allowed to be surprised when the nation's economy takes a giant dump on your fantasy, that you're going to purge those evil federal workers who are making so much money

Average is like $60,000 a year, by the way. So don't go thinking that federal workers get into the business to get rich. They don't. When you cancel those grants to schools, that's what the Department of Education mostly does. It's not some secret hypnotic mind control ray for teaching communism and trans rights to children. It's about funding state education systems. When that goes away...

Guess where that money's going to go? It's not going to go to your pocket or to your state or anywhere else. It's going to go to Elon and the rest of these guys getting a $4 trillion tax cut under this plan while your taxes go up. When your kids can't read and write, when they can't get into a college, much less receive student financial aid any longer, that's on you. When they ask you, mommy, daddy, why can't I go to college? I'm smart. I want to achieve something. And by the way, that's not the only path to achievement.

It is for a lot of people. When they tell you that, when they say, oh God, why can't I get ahead? Why can't I get something better in my life? Why can't I do something more in my life? That's on you. You chose this. You're not allowed to be surprised. I know a lot of you think, I'm a free market guy. I will even pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You know what? We gave up the free market a long fucking time ago because lobbyists funded our campaigns. That's a Republican confession. Okay?

We sold ourselves to the highest bidders. And right now, you guys have sold yourself cheap to the highest bidders. You're not in a free market anymore. You're in a techno-feudalist serfdom. You're going to get fucked economically by Donald Trump and Peter Thiel and Elon Musk and the rest of these guys because they truly believe that everyone in America who is not like them is easily replaceable by AI in the next two to four years. They really believe that the serf class is ready for a monarchy.

that they are the barons and the dukes of this great monarchy to come. And Trump is the puppet king for the moment. You're not allowed to be surprised, though, when you lose your freedoms and your liberties and your rights and your hopes and your economic future. You're not allowed to be surprised, by the way, Second Amendment guys, you're not allowed to be, and I am one, you're not allowed to be surprised when Trump says, well, we can't have those dirty peasants having their own firearms anymore. That's a risk to the majesty and power of the government.

You're not allowed to be surprised when they start saying from Facebook and Twitter and every other social media platform out there, yeah, we have to give those to the government every day. We have to give your DMs, your private messages to the government every day because you're too much of a risk. You're not allowed to be surprised when the things they projected on the Democratic Party, autocracy, control, authoritarianism, the government using force majeure to make your life suck are brought on to you. You're not allowed to be surprised by that.

You voted for it. You wanted it. It's coming. So don't go on social media and bitch and moan, oh, my friend lost his job. He was a good, poor stranger. Fuck you, way it goes. You guys voted for this. This is what you asked for. So you are never, ever allowed to act surprised and shocked and hurt again. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well-trained, well-equipped, and battle-hardened. There is not a liberal American, any conservative American...

Hey folks, my guest today is legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. You have seen him on CNN. You have seen him in writings everywhere. He has a tremendous new book out that is very much of our moment. It's called The Pardon. It's actually not out yet. It's coming out shortly. But The Pardon is about the president's, one of the president's most sweeping powers. And it is the power to forgive federal crimes.

And as a legal thinker, Jeff is a guy who really has dug into this storyline and given us some history. And I want to talk today, Jeff, because I know you were wrapping up this book as the January 6th pardons happened. I do want to get to those. But I would like to talk to you about

about first about the before the january 6th story the biggest pardon story of of our generation really was nixon being pardoned by gerald ford after watergate let's start there and then i want to dive in a little bit to the to the history of the pardon um but i want to start with nixon and ford about and how that shaped our political culture then and now um

Rick, you know, that really is the story of the Ford pardon because it is the defining pardon of our generation. And it had a great many effects even beyond what...

the immediate effects of 1974. Okay, just to refresh the audience's recollection or even tell people who weren't alive in 1974 what happened. Richard Nixon, as a result of Watergate, resigned as president on August 9th, 1974. Exactly one month later, on September 9th, Gerald Ford surprised the nation by, on a Sunday morning,

at 11:00 AM in a hastily organized speech,

announced that he was pardoning Richard Nixon for all possible crimes committed during his presidency. And it caused a storm of outrage because Ford very successfully in his first month as president had portrayed himself as someone moving on from the disasters of Watergate. His

He immersed himself in Watergate with the pardon. His approval rating, which had been stratospherically high, dropped 40 points in one week.

And many people believe, although this is somewhat controversial, that the pardon was a major factor in his losing the next election to Jimmy Carter. If I can just fast forward a lot to 2001. In 2001,

Ted Kennedy, who was, you know, a potentially leading opponent of Kennedy, of Ford in the 70s, at the Boston Kennedy Library,

gave Ford a Profile in Courage award and said, you were right about the pardon and I was wrong, that the pardon was the right thing to do. And I regret my opposition and I think you were right. Bob?

Bob Woodward wrote something around the same time saying that Ford was right to issue the pardon. And even in the argument of the Trump case in the Supreme Court, Trump v. United States, Brett Kavanaugh just sort of said in passing, well, everyone now agrees that Ford was right to issue the pardon. So, you know, one of the reasons I decided to write the pardon was to address this historical debate because there has been a lot of back and forth.

This major shift in opinion, which I think, you know, it was real about whether the Ford pardon was justified and what that says about the pardon power altogether. Yeah, I think because it is so sweeping and so powerful.

I also think that most Americans really didn't focus on it as a central presidential power at that point in our history. It just wasn't seen as something that people spent a lot of mental bandwidth on. And again, as Jeff was joking, for those of you who weren't alive during Watergate, and even though I was 10, but for those of you who weren't alive during Watergate, it consumed this country at a level...

Frankly, that even a lot of the major scandals and panics and crises around Donald Trump didn't get to. It was everywhere. Well, Rick, one of the things that that, you know, was so interesting about going back and doing this is just to look at the media environment of 1974. Right. There were three network news shows. There were zero national newspapers.

There was no such thing as cable or cable news. There was no such thing as the internet. So, um, the, the, if, if you were the lead story on Walter Cronkite or Huntley Brinkley, that was it. I mean, that was what the nation was talking about. And this was, um,

a subject that was obsessively followed by the mainstream media and, and, and followed in a way, you know, I, I don't never believe her, you know, perfect objectivity, but the, the, the, the news organizations of that period, including the major newspapers were not nearly as partisan as the media environment is today. So this tremendous focus of on, on Watergate ultimately, you know,

negative for Nixon really was something that was unanimous in a way that nothing is unanimous in the United States today. We'll be right back. Hello.

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And now, back to the show. Right. We really do live in a much different climate. And yes, folks, the old Republican cliche of, oh, all the network news was so, so liberal, it really was much more up the middle. It really was much more journalistically-

clean than the Republican retrospect. It wasn't that the media sent some sort of wild mob after Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon invited the mob to come in. He was a guy who was criming, as the kids say. He was involved in a legitimate criminal conspiracy that led to him having to resign. I mean, it could have gotten much, much worse.

So, but historically the presidential pardon, I mean, it's existed since the beginning of the Republic. It's, it's wired into the constitution. Talk to us about how and when it was used prior to the, again, the most famous modern, uh, well, the second most famous, I think now, uh, with Ford and Nixon, how was it used by presidents before the, before the modern era? Well, you know, it's very interesting. I, you know, I go, I go back pretty far all the way to England and this is the power of

Right. The Constitution is based on the idea of checks and balances, of separation of powers. There are no checks on the pardon power.

power. I mean, as you said, it applies only to federal crimes and you can't pardon someone in advance of committing a crime. But other than that, there is absolutely no restriction. And that's why I find it so revealing about presidents to see how they were used, how the pardon power is used. The pardon power was used a lot.

in the 19th century, in part because there was no such thing as parole in federal prisons.

So it was used as a vehicle for sympathy, for mercy. And it was relatively uncontroversial. There were not a lot of controversial pardons. After the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln and then Andrew Johnson issued amnesties to the South because they needed the country to start functioning again. Right.

And there were, you know, Rutherford B. Hayes pardoned a thousand people, including 40 people on death row. I mean, but it wasn't terribly controversial. And that's why the Nixon pardon in 1974 was such a thunderbolt, because it had not been used in such an explicitly political way.

And in such a political context as it did with with Ford, and I, you know, just just to, you know, cut to the chase.

Even though there has been this historical revisionism that maybe the pardon wasn't so bad, I think the Ford pardon was bad. I think it was a misuse of the pardon power. I think it allowed Nixon a degree of vindication that he didn't deserve. If he wanted to pardon Nixon after he'd been convicted so he didn't go to prison, that would be one thing. But to completely cut off

any sort of accountability for Nixon, especially when, as was happening in late 1974, Nixon's top aides, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, John Mitchell, were going on trial for the Watergate cover-up, which Nixon led and was the beneficiary of. It was really unfair. And I think the immediate reaction to the pardon was a lot more justified than the revisionism we see today.

As a kind of rule of law conservative, I always found the Nixon pardon distasteful. And I can tell you, inside the Republican Party, there's always been this kind of

Strange bitterness about Nixon that that I think led to this deeper like the Nixon was railroaded in some sort of innocent victim and that the pardon validated that. And I think that that cynicism spread through the GOP over time in a way that that.

has kind of led to Trump in some ways. Like the bad guys do whatever they want and we'll take advantage of it. Now we're going to do the same kind of thing. Well, and that's why I think, I mean, I think you're, well, you know the backstory of what Republicans really think in a way that I certainly do not. But the cynicism,

that was bred by the Ford Pardons.

is now you see an extreme form with Trump that this idea that, well, you know, Joe Biden helped his friends. I, Nixon was helped. I can pardon the January 6th people. And it's also worth remembering. I mean, it's so hard to remember all the various Trump scandals. The outrages of the last pardons in his first term.

- Right. - Right, when he pardoned all the people that Robert Mueller had prosecuted, where he pardoned Joe Arpaio, the racist sheriff in Arizona. He pardoned Charles Kushner, his daughter's son-in-law, father-in-law, who he now named ambassador to France. I mean, as you know far better than I, Trump is the ultimate transactional player

and the ultimate narcissist. So the pardon power is his way in the most direct way of rewarding his supporters and punishing his enemies. Yeah, I think, I mean, and I think that

Nixon, to my knowledge, and maybe I'm mistaken on this, I don't think Nixon ever seriously considered pardoning Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Dean, all the rest at any granular level. I may be wrong about that. Rick, this is a great part of the story, and this is why the White House tapes are such an incredible historical resource.

They did consider, and Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy, two of the principal Watergate figures, were demanding pardons. And there are these great...

between John Dean, the White House counsel, and Nixon. It's like, can we pardon these people? And they concede it would be too politically incendiary. Yeah, I remembered something, but it was like, because of the political backlash, even the Nixon people were like, nah. But this is the difference with Trump. In his first term, when the subject of pardons came up,

It's like, well, maybe I will pardon Michael Flynn. Maybe I will pardon Paul Manafort. Dangling these pardons so that they wouldn't cooperate. And ultimately he did pardon those people, but it just shows how standards have changed. Nixon thought, this is too bad. I can't pardon these people. But Trump happily did exactly that. I mean, I guess when you look at...

If your vestigial sense of shame is less than Richard Nixon's. But it is. I don't know if it is, for sure. No, I mean, that's the thing that is so incredible to me, is that stuff that Nixon and John Dean, while they were committing crimes in the Oval Office,

thought, well, this is beyond the pale. This is exactly what Trump has done, both in his first term now and in his second as well. So in terms of scale, the Trump pardons of the January 6th folks are wildly beyond, unprecedented in a way, not only because of the crimes that were being committed

The violence of the crimes that were being committed, you know, in terms of the attack on the building, the attack on the police officers, the attack on Congress, but also in the scope in which it was a lot of that was a direct challenge to a free and fair election with an intent to overturn that election.

What are your feelings on the Trump pardons of the January 6th folks? And I want to bifurcate the question into two sections. One, the broader sort of criminal trespass kind of, you know, basic bad actors. And two, the fact that he didn't even draw a distinction in the pardons with the most violent of the folks that were involved in the attack that day.

It is, you know, the official Donald Trump description of basically everything, in my view, is shocking but not surprising. And, you know, when you think about both the magnitude of the number of pardons and the seriousness,

of the criminal conduct that was prosecuted, it is really so breathtaking to this day. And again, it's worth focusing, I think, on the narcissistic aspect of it, because remember,

Donald Trump was a January 6th defendant, too. It was a different case. It wasn't, you know, the invasion of the Capitol. It was the attempt to overturn the election through the Electoral College. But it was they were all on the same team. And and and Trump's pardon is, in my view, wrong.

Trump pardoning himself saying that the effort to overturn the election whether through the electoral college or through the violent intimidation of Mike Pence um was all the same and and all justified and that is such uh a chilling message you know I I think we all get a nerd um to some of uh

Trump's behavior. But I mean, all you need to do is look at the video of, you know, how the Capitol Police and the Metropolitan Police were treated in that in the Capitol building by the rioters. And to think that the president of the United States has has given all those people a free pass. I think it's important to hold on to our to our sense of outrage about it.

We'll be right back. And now, back to the show. Yeah, I think, Jeffrey, that is a very good point because I feel like there was a little bubble of like, oh my God, but the media has, to a great degree, let this thing go already. Just like, oh, it's Trump being Trump.

Um, although I have, I have seen a little bit of coverage. Some of these people are out committing crimes again. And that's also true. That's also true of the, the first term pardons. Oh, sure. Um, at least seven of them, um, in, in, by my count have, have, uh, committed new crimes, including, you know, a lot, several acts of domestic violence. And so, um,

you know, the consequences of these pardons are real. And, you know,

As always, and you are the world's foremost expert on this, which is the Republican Party's evolution and how the party of law and order, the party of Ronald Reagan, the party of the first George H.W. and W. Bush has fallen into line behind this endorsement and embrace of lawlessness.

I'm old enough to remember my first campaign in 1988 with the Bush campaign, where the issue of Michael Dukakis issuing state pardons and state furloughs and things like that, not just for Willie Horton, but beyond, was an issue the Republican Party beat to death, just absolutely went mad about.

to the point where it's scary. And if I can just, when you're talking about history there, I mean, the Willie Horton case, again, to remind people who are somewhat younger than we are, you know, Willie Horton was serving life in prison in Massachusetts for a terrible crime and under a policy that Michael Dukakis didn't

invent, but was, he endorsed, retained and actually vetoed an attempt to change it. Willie, Michael Dukakis was the governor of Massachusetts and ultimately George Herbert Walker Bush's appointment in 1988. It's

Horton was furloughed and committed a horrible murder and rape in Maryland. He's actually still alive and still in prison. And this was something that the Bush campaign used relentlessly. And who could have blamed him? I mean, it was a terrible thing. And it contributed, I think, very clearly. And I lay this out in the book.

to a reduction in use of the pardon in the 80s and 90s. The presidents were so afraid of releasing someone

who would go on to commit crimes that they released very few. George Herbert Walker Bush and George W. Bush released very few people, as did Bill Clinton. He got in trouble late in his presidency with a very unwise pardon of a literal fugitive named Mark Rich. But it was the actual number of pardons under Bush

under Clinton was really small because Democrats in that era were trying to be tough on crime. Again, the way pardon, I mean, that's why the book was fun is that so many of the broader political developments of our era are, you can see through the prism of pardons. So Joe Biden on his way out the door controversially pardoned his son and some family members.

from a fear of persecution by the incoming Republican House and the incoming Republican White House. And I think he took some blowback on that. That was pretty, pretty tough for him because he really did feel like he was protecting his family on one level. But he also took some really hard hits on pardoning Leonard Pelletier, a former Native American activist who killed two cops. And

In that last blast of Biden pardoning folks, do you think that opened the gate further for Trump to pardon these people, or do you think he was going to always do it? I think he was going to always do it, but in the way of politics, it allowed Republicans to engage in what I thought was false equivalency. Right, a lot of what abouts. The pardons...

I thought the Hunter Biden pardon was terrible. It was wrong. Hunter Biden was, um,

fairly prosecuted in Delaware, pleaded guilty in California. You know, the only reason he got a pardon is because his father was president of the United States. And I don't think that's how things should work. I actually thought the Pelletier pardon pardon was was more justified. I mean, he is like in his late 80s now, I guess. And he had served 50 years in prison. I mean, I you know, I didn't think there was any reason for him him to die in prison.

But I think the Hunter Biden pardon just underlined the cynicism with which many Americans view how the political system worked, where presidents take care of their own. Yes, it's true that...

Trump had made some threats against Hunter Biden, but Hunter Biden had been convicted. And I'm sorry, you know, when you're convicted of crimes, which he was clearly guilty of, you should have to face the consequences. And the other pardons to his family members was just simply bizarre to me because none of them, as I'm aware, were under any kind of real investigations.

And this effort to protect his family went so far beyond what was necessary, again, just contributed to a level of cynicism that is, you know, really... Yeah, I think they handed the Trump side a lot of excuses and a lot of justifications for, you know, now I can see Jim Comer and the House guys easily saying, oh, well, now we have to investigate these pardons because this is so inappropriate. But...

I wonder if you, if you, I think, I think in the first term, Trump pardoning Manafort, Stone, Flynn, Gates, all those folks sent a big message that if you do what the boss needs, you're going to get taken care of. I think the January 6th was more focused on the, like the foot soldier types. I mean, take out the couple that were sort of involved in the broader conspiracies, Stuart Rhodes and Enrique Terrio and a couple of others. But,

Where do you see the pardon being held in a post-Trump world, assuming we get there? Well, I think it is going to be used as a political tool the way Trump has used it. And, you know, going back to the 17th century, the parliamentarians who were upset about the pardon power of the king

recognized even then that pardons were not just about mercy. They were about the executive protecting and helping his friends. And this has been a tension in the pardon power from the beginning. And when you have someone as transactional

as Trump, he is going to take care of his friends. And that's exactly what he's done. You know, as you say, I think

Hunter by the Joe Biden gave Trump and his allies, you know, the ammunition to say, well, everyone does it. And that's unfortunate. But the scale and number and awfulness of Trump's pardons is way beyond what nothing in history, nothing in history, nothing in history. And now, you know, we have an emboldened Trump.

who I think is going to use the power even more regularly. You know, even after the January 6th pardon, he pardoned some abortion protesters who were prosecuted for, you know, disrupting abortion clinics. I mean, this is the kind of thing that he's going to do. And there is no...

And there's no check on it. And in the spirit of no check, I mean, one of the things that is most interesting about going back to Watergate is to look at what happened with the Supreme Court's decision in Trump v. United States, which says... Which we talked about the other day, yeah. Right. All official conduct is now off limits for prosecution and even investigation.

which adds an additional level of impunity to the president's conduct in office. And I think that's really chilling. Yeah, I think it's pretty dangerous. Well, folks, the book is outstanding. It is called The Pardon, The Politics of Presidential Mercy by Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it as always. It was great seeing you out in California earlier last week.

And we'll talk again soon. Thank you, my friend. Thanks, buddy. The Lincoln Project Podcast is a Lincoln Project production. Executive produced by Whitney Hayes, Ben Howe, and Joey Wartner Cheney. Produced by Whitney Hayes. Edited by Riley Mayne. Hey, folks, if you want to support The Lincoln Project's work against Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and this MAGA craziness...

Go to action.linkinproject.us slash help LP. If you'd like to get in touch or have suggestions for a guest or a show topic, or just want to say hi, our email is podcast at linkinproject.us. For our MAGA friends, please, no more nudes. Thanks so much, and we'll talk to you again next time. Good night, and good luck.