What’s In An Accent with Lupita Nyong’o [VIDEO]
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I got to be interested in whatever. I mean, there was a time when I was like obsessed with

Lincoln Park Wow And nobody That is freedom And you know Yes That's the devil's music Where I'm from Anything that involved An electric guitar In my mother's house Was the devil I remember in church You know we'd go to Sunday school Yeah And then like so I'd go to different churches So it was like you know The African church Was just very simple It's church and hymns And choirs and everything And then we would go to like You know the white part of it Like that was the church And it was more like

And even when they would tell stories about like the devil, like remember the story when Jesus is fasting? Yeah. And he's tempted. And then he gets tempted. And then they'd be like, and then Satan appeared. And like literally, like when you say Linkin Park, I'm like, wow, you really did have a free life. Lupita was free. You really were free. I was free. Linkin Park. I was free. Wow. Wow.

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An African podcast is the last thing I would have thought of. And it's honestly my favorite conversation to have. Oh, wonderful. No, really. I was just like, I was like, oh, Lupita's coming on. I mean, obviously, you're always making movies. You're always doing things. And then I was like an African podcast. I was in on so many different levels. This is exciting because here we are, three Africans. Actually, let's settle the debate before we get into this conversation. Okay. Who are the best Africans? South Africans, Nigerians or Kenyans?

I mean, what kind of question is that? We're all subjective. We're all going to be, you know, root for our own country. Somebody has to win. No, but what did I tell you? Kenyans are nuanced. I know, I know. Already you're like, we're subjective. If you ask a Nigerian, that's... Nigerian. The best and worst Africans, if it means anything. The hubris of it all. The best and worst.

Yeah, Kenyans are always like, what do you think it is? Because I found South Africans, we know South Africans are almost like the Americans of Africa. Yeah. South Africans have always been like, we're the best, we got everything first. And then also we just ignore everything happening to our country. Right. So even when Kenya gets like advancements or even when Nigeria, like when Rwanda started having dope internet, South Africans are like, yeah, but it's still Rwanda. Yeah.

See what I mean? Yeah. But I feel like Kenyans are like quietly like the cities develop and things grow. But I've never heard a Kenyan being like, yeah, you have to come to Kenya. Never. Like, what do you think that is? Okay. I don't understand that. No, but I mean in like a braggy way. Oh, yeah. We're not very, we don't have a lot of braggadocio. It's not in our culture, perhaps. Nigerians? Opposites. The opposite. I love us.

I just, why would, what's there not to love? Apart from like the corruption and bribery and all that, you know, that kind of arrogance. But if I go somewhere and there's no Nigerians, I'm like, I have to go. There's no money to be made. Like, I visit schools. I'm like, do you have any Nigerian kids? No Nigerian kids? No. This place is not good enough. Like, but that is just so baked into me. But I'm like a Nigerian from the diaspora. So maybe I'm kind of overcompensating.

The thing, one of the episodes of your podcast, you actually have a mother who makes a Nigerian soup. I don't want to spoil it, but she takes it to New York from London, which you probably shouldn't do, given the ingredients in a typical Nigerian soup. But it's just like,

It has that level of specificity about like the soup people eat, the stories we tell each other. Like, how did you find these people? Well, I've always loved storytelling and just cinema through the ears has always been a thing for me. And growing up, radio was a big thing.

thing. And so coming here and learning of shows like This American Life made a big impact on me and my understanding of America from that more nuanced place. And so I wanted to make a show like that. And so I teamed up with a production, a podcasting production studio. They went out, hired story scouts around the world who then would come just really emailing people, just...

you know, going through their own memory, Rolodex, you know, like that story was actually the mother of a story scout. Oh, wow. And that's how the stories got to me. They would then, you know, send me like blurbs of all the stories that they had whittled down to. And then I would pick the ones that I felt were representative of a mind your own story.

So yeah, that's it. I'm loving the idea of this starting off in a very formal way in a production studio somewhere in the US. And then by the time it gets to Africa, I mean, fundamentally, what you're looking for is like gossip.

That's what you're doing. No, if you think about it honestly, all you're doing is just like, have you heard anything? Do you have any good stories for me? Do you know anybody who has a story? That's all you're really doing at some point. It's true. But what I love about the podcast is that you start with your stories. And it adds such a personal flavor to it. It really takes you on a journey. I know it's the first episode, but losing your accent. Just the idea of you travel to another country,

And then on the one hand, you have the balance of you want to make yourself, you know, something in this country and you want the country to, you know, identify with you. You want to be embraced. Yeah.

But then on the other hand, you don't want to lose your people, your culture, your vibe, your language. Like, why was it important for you to make that the first episode specifically? Well, I think because it is the way in which I started my career and it felt like a natural, organic jumping off point to talk about identity and the crises of it when you are a transient person.

And this podcast is about, for me, it's about expanding our understanding of what it means to be African today and making that experience feel real.

global because it is. Africans are everywhere, right? And so the way people know me, obviously, is a lot through my voice. And here I am starting a podcast. It felt just natural to talk about that dilemma that I went through about how to sound on a global stage.

And do you feel that's something you're still grappling with? No, I am not grappling with it in the same way. I've kind of, I've accepted that I sound...

I sound mixed up and confused. I do. Like, you know, and sometimes, okay, it's sometimes it frustrates me because I want, there's moments when I want to sound more Kenyan than I can. And then mainly that's the betrayal when like I'm back home and I say something wrong.

I remember my niece, I went back home and I felt like when I'm back home, I code shift and I sound way more Kenyan than I do in America. So I'm with my cousins. I'm feeling really chill. And my little niece, she was probably four at the time. She goes, why do you sound like that? And then I say, like what? And she goes, like a white somebody. Wow. Got it. Like a white somebody. Like a white somebody.

And I was just so heartbroken because here I was thinking, ah, I'm sounding like everybody. You're back. I'm back. And she called me out. So, you know, there's those moments where I'm like, oh, my God, I can't run away from my American experience. But for the most part, I'm fine with it. So at this point, I feel like my vocal expression is malleable and that's OK.

Reflects your experience. Yeah, yeah. And I want it to be malleable because when I'm playing a role, I want to be able to lose myself in that accent, you know, and to study it. And it all starts technically. You know, for me, I can't do accents like you. You're a mimic and you're a very good mimic. Oh, thank you very much. I have to study the IPA of the accent, you know. Oh, but that's what makes you brilliant. It's funny, you understand the difference between the two. So for instance...

I always tell people, I go, I don't do accents. I mimic people. Yeah, okay. Do you know what I mean? So I like find a person and I'm like, I like how they speak. And that's the person who sticks in my head. You know what I mean? So someone would be like, do a London accent. I'm like, there's no, for me, I don't think there is a London accent because when I'm in London, there are so many accents. So I just,

Go, this is my friend in London. This is how they speak. And that's what I do. Does that make sense? And then sometimes people will complain to me. They'll be like, Trevor, I heard your Trinidadian accent. And that's not how Trinidad. And I'm like, yes, I'm not doing a Trinidadian accent. I'm doing my friend. This is how my friend speaks. And he's from Trinidad. So you should go complain to him because I'm doing him. But it's also, you're also owning your expression of that Trinidad. It's Trinidad through you. Yeah. And that's cool.

And I'm envious of it. I'm so envious of that ability. I would love to know what enabled you or what gave you the permission to do that.

to not feel like you were losing something or betraying something. Because everyone has that experience. I've heard countless stories of people who say, hey, you know, we moved to this country from Mexico and I had a really thick Mexican accent and I'm ashamed that now I try to change it to be American, but then my family feels like I'm leaving them behind. Or, no, I moved here from the Middle East and I'm trying to get rid of the accent, but at the same time, my family says, why are you letting go of me? Yeah.

What was it that allowed you to give yourself permission to say, yeah, you know what, my accent is going to evolve and it's just going to shift depending on where I'm staying for the most amount of time? Was there a moment or? My first, the first permission I gave myself to change my accent or allow my accent to transform was going to drama school. Okay. I went to drama school because I didn't want to just be an instinctive actor. Okay.

I wanted to understand my instrument. I wanted to know what I was good at, what I was not good at, and work on the things that I wasn't good at. And one of the things I wasn't good at was accents. I didn't know how to sound any other way than myself. That was the first permission that I gave myself. But it was full of heartbreak and grief, just grief.

The process of deciding, OK, I'm going to start working on my American accent and I'm not going to allow myself to sound Kenyan so that I'm like monitoring and really trying to understand my mouth in a technical way to like make these new sounds. Making those new sounds in a context that wasn't the classroom felt like betrayal.

I didn't feel like myself. And I cried many nights to sleep. Many, many nights. Oh, yes, I did. It was so frustrating. Because you were living in an American accent. I was living in an American accent. And so I told my family and I would call home and I would speak English.

in an American accent. So you were like method, basically. I was method with the accent. Okay. And there were moments where I wanted to give up, but I had this goal. I wanted to be able to succeed in an American market as an actor. Now, I did all that work just for someone to tell me, uh-uh, now go and sound like yourself. What? That was another betrayal. I was like, what do you mean? I've done all...

this so that I can come out here and people can be like, you don't have an accent. And then now someone is telling me, oh, actually, we need you just as you were.

My God. And so now I had to do it again. And when I tried to return to my accent, I couldn't find myself in my mouth. I couldn't find that original part of me. And my mom actually sent me a voice note of a speech I gave before I moved to America. And it brought me to tears because I've never been able to sound like that. And I never will. So.

So it wasn't a moment. It was many things. And it's also people I love reminding me that I was enough, you know. And my mother saying to me, the way you sound is a product of your life experience. And that was like, aha, you know, I don't.

The way I sound is representative of my growth. And that growth involves America, you know? It involves Mexico. There's certain words I say, and I say them with a Spanish accent. It's just like, that's the way I say those words. People must be so thrown by that, by the way. So I remember in Black Panther, when you're speaking Spanish, and I remember watching this in the cinema, right?

And the scene isn't like, it's not like you're saying like one line. It's not like you're like, yo entiendo tambien. No, you like speak and you speak. And I will never forget this moment. We're sitting in the cinema. Yeah. And I heard people gasp. And then I heard a few people like whisper like, wow, she speaks Spanish. And tell me a little bit about that part. Like for those who don't know, like what is Lupita's connection with Mexico and with Spanish? I was...

I was born in Mexico. My father was in self-exile there for a number of years, and I was born in the last year that he was there. He was teaching political science at the university. And yeah, I was born there. And then we moved back to Kenya.

shortly after I turned one. And when I was 16, my parents were like, you know what? You have a Mexican passport. You should speak Spanish. And off you go. And they sent me to Mexico to learn Spanish. And so I spent seven months there. And I did a

A very similar thing, actually. It's what actually informed my decision to speak in an American accent. When I was in Mexico, after one month of being there, I said, okay, enough with the English. No more English. I'm only going to speak Spanish. Oh, wow. And for the rest of my time there, I spoke Spanish because I was like, I want to learn this language.

as fully as possible. And if I allow myself to have the crutch of speaking English to the people around me, my classmates and stuff, I'm not going to pick up this language. And so, yeah, I stopped speaking English and it made me a very quiet person.

Because I didn't have enough Spanish to like, you know, be conversational. But what it did is my brain switched into survival mode. And that's the best way to learn a language because you pick things up and you hold on to them for dear life. Yeah, you start creating connections. Yeah, I would go to the market and I would learn the names of foods and like they would register.

okay because i need it for the next day and i learned spanish pretty well as a result there's a study that i read um about languages particularly and it talked about how everybody who can speak multiple languages also finds that they have a different personality in every single different language that they speak it's yeah and so i'd love to know like what what

personality traits do you find you have in the different languages that you don't have in the others and you wish you did because I know I know when I when I speak English I'm one kind of Trevor but if I speak Zulu with my friends there's a different kind of Trevor and then if I have like the mixed everythingness with my friend then it's an even different it's a more different kind of yes like do you know what I mean what's yeah what are we not getting from English Lupita that that is like hidden in all these other Lupitas well there's two English even that very good I was like I

second you beat her that was a whole new and the body language everything that's an African sound that's already

Well, I have two English Lupitas, right? There's the Kenyan English Lupita and then there's the American English Lupita. And I think with my Kenyan English Lupita, I'm a lot spicier, I think. And I'm provocative. And this might be my family or maybe it's a Kenyan thing. The way my family compliments me,

is to kind of abuse. So I'll be like, okay, so you think that jacket is nice? Wow. You know, like that. And that's the compliment. And so I tried that in school once and like people were so offended. I was like, okay, this is a code switching thing, you know, so like that. So I'm a lot spicier, I'm a lot more pokey. Right, right, right. In the Kenyan version of me.

And I use a lot more of those sounds. I mean, you know, Africans, we use a lot of sounds to convey a lot of things. Yeah, we do. Definitely. So there's a whole lot more of that. In my American, there's the uh-huh version. Yeah. And then my Mexican self, Mexicans are very polite, right? And so I think I take on a more polite version of myself. You know, like there's even just...

Like, tú and usted. Do you know? Like, the whole tú and usted thing. And I find I'm a lot more, I'm whinier when I'm in my Mexican mode because Mexicans have this lilt. It's a very, oh, yay. And like, you know, they pull and there's like, and yeah, so I take on that personality a little more. Yeah. And then, I mean, luo.

Say maybe my lower self is very quiet. You know, Lupita, what's so interesting is I feel that you've broken barriers for African actresses. So the Lupita that arrives at Yale School of Drama today may not feel the same pressure to change her accent because there's a reference for an African actress. But you had to be the one to walk through that door in a way and do the thing that was hard. Mm.

To allow someone else coming. If an actress comes from Nigeria or Kenya, they're like, oh, we know Lupita. We know what this is. Do you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, you can play us because we've seen it happen. So that person may be able to assume a completely different posture and just have their natural accent in a way you couldn't 15 years ago. Because it didn't exist. True. But I would still encourage that person to learn other accents. Because without my training at Yale, I wouldn't have been able to play a Ugandan. No.

I wouldn't be able to do Black Panther and try my hand at Xhosa. You said that very carefully. You know? By the way, your Xhosa was great. Thank you.

Thank you. You must remember, like, me and the crew watch. And Lupita, like, that's what, like, Lupita would call me and be like, hey, I really want to nail this. And I was like, okay. And I would get the whole cossa contingent together. Because I was like, look, I know, I have the ear for it. But I don't speak it as fluently. But I would literally assemble everybody. And I was like, guys, we cannot...

Allow Lupita to slip up here. Please no. We are not going to let her down. And then all of us would have like a consensus like from grandparents. Yes. All the way down. And we'd be like, this is the line.

How would she say it? And we're like, okay, this is the cool way. This is all like behind the scenes. And then I would send Lupita a voice note. Yes, you were my secret weapon. He was your dialect coach. I was like, this is how the people have agreed, Lupita. This is how we would say it. And when we watched the movie together, like all of us were sitting there like proud African grandparents. We're like, how are you, Lupita? How are you? How are you? How are you?

Every single time you would be like, thank you, man. I put in the work, yo. And thank you for being there, Speed Dial, because, you know, sometimes things would change on set last minute and they're like, okay, here's something else we want you to say in concert. And I'm like, oh my God, like, Trevor! I don't know.

So thank you. No, you nailed it. A thousand times over, you nailed it. But yeah, so the training at Yale was not just about sounding American. It was about being able to pick apart accents and hear them, you know? Just hear the nuances and find the change in your mouth, your tongue, the vocal placement, the resonance, all of that. So learning how language and accent work technically helps.

help me to be able to actually play more Africans. So I would say it's great to go into a program and to allow yourself to expand beyond the limitations of your identity. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

talking about expanding beyond limitations I often think with African stories told by Africans whether from Africa or in the diaspora we always want to lean towards the more positive side because everything is so negative in the western media but what I like about the podcast there are a lot of like heartbreaking stories in there I thought Evelyn's story um about about being shipped from

From Canada to Ghana against her will. That is an experience. I know so many kids that were shipped back and their parents tricked them. And it's kind of a thing that's not spoken about publicly, but you...

really managed to humanize one of the sad elements of the African experience that needs to be told but it's really done in a dignified way. Oh thank you and it's by giving the mic to the people who have experienced it and allowing them to tell their story that had been actually the my initial idea in the beginning I wasn't going to share any of my own stories and then nobody wanted to buy the

Actually, Norma Ladgen was like, yeah, man, you have to, we want to hear from you. You're the gateway to the other stories. And so I had to, I had to,

Be more open than I intended to be. Yeah. More vulnerable than I intended to be. Was that hard for you, by the way? It was. Because I have been very deliberate. The way I present myself to a public is very curated, right? And I do it sparingly. And I...

I like to be buttoned up. And this podcast was about being messier and, you know, and just showing more of like,

my myself when I'm at home and my socks are off my bra is off and that's difficult Lupita you are very private African woman we don't share our business in that way yeah and superstitious there's a connection there yes I was actually thinking about that and I when I when I was listening to you speak and I was I was thinking I was like it

It is very much an African thing. You don't air your business. You don't air your family's business. You don't even air like your people's business, you know, in a way, you know, like I remember one day, I never thought of it like consciously, but one day I was back in South Africa. This is when I was still hosting The Daily Show. And someone came up to me in the street and they were like, Trevor, can I just tell you, man, we're very proud of you doing a great job. But most importantly, I'm so glad that you are not telling Americans what is happening here. Yeah.

Because Trevor, that is our business. Don't go there and paint our country for other people. But when you are here, I was happy you are still doing it. You are doing it.

When you are here, you were talking about our president. You were telling us what's wrong. But you mustn't do it in America. And I was like, wow, it really is an African thing that we have. Like where I find like Americans are very much like, let me tell you everything that's good. It's tell all. They just met you and they'll tell you all their business. It's a very tell all thing. And even in the industry, how like, I'd love to know how you found the balance and how you, in the same way you found the balance and like navigating the

like your accent and where you're from. How do you find the balance in like sharing your,

In a world where people want more from you, but then also like maintaining like your privacy. Because people do look to you and I've seen people go like, oh Lupita, thank you for sharing these stories. Thank you for sharing stories of heartbreak or thank you for talking to us about like your journey and acting. Or like how have you found that balance and still keeping what you want to be precious and then knowing what you want to share with others? So I try and I am private, but I also want to be real.

You know, and I think it's a negotiation between that and

constantly. And when I think, but I also work from a very vulnerable place. To be an actor is to be vulnerable, at least for me. And while I'm taking on all these different characters, I'm always putting myself on the line, right? Because I'm always exposing myself to things I don't know. And the only way to do that is to remain tender and vulnerable.

And so when it comes to my own life, I guess I think about, okay, how can this help? I want to be additive. I don't want to be, I don't know, masturbatory about the things that I share. So the things that I share, I want to...

to share because I feel it may be of use to somebody else. So that's why I talked about heartbreak because it was so real to me. And I was looking at the landscape of social media and how we're always presenting our most positive side. We truly are, our most perfect side. Our most perfect side, our most aspirational side. And yet here I was going through something so...

devastating. And I just wanted to be real about it in order for me to be able to live in that realness better, you know, and also so that when people saw me, they weren't, they wouldn't be surprised if I'm not, if I'm not, if I'm not vibrant and vivacious, because this is not a vibrant and vivacious moment. And there is a time for everything. And that was my time for grief.

And then with this podcast, my deep, deep-seated desire was truly to kind of challenge that African mentality of keeping things so closed. Because I think it robs us of an opportunity to better understand each other, right? When you turn on the radio and the only thing is the bad news, the gossip, and gossip,

American, like Hollywood affairs and issues, we are robbing ourselves of an opportunity to understand ourselves one story at a time. And so much empathy is gained when we can just hear a story that of someone that is so unfamiliar, but going through something that is familiar to us.

And so I want for us as Africans to understand each other better and to go beyond our very limited expectations of ourselves.

because we're not having those conversations, you know? So hopefully this is contributing to our own understanding of who we are today. Because we're always grappling, don't you feel, with tradition and modernity. And, you know, that thing of like, that's very un-African. You know, you hear that a lot.

But is it? Is it? And one of the ways to challenge what is African is to actually get Africans talking about their unique experiences. It's interesting. In the specificity of your podcast, I feel like you've tapped on something that sort of touches on everyone and everything. You know, like America as a whole is a place where

people are always asked to sort of like check their identity at the door. But then what they don't realize is they also ask to then adopt an identity. But what is that identity? And America always struggles and grapples with this. You know, it's like you see it throughout time. It's like the Irish get here and people are like, we don't like the Irish. You're not Irish. Until the Irish are like, okay, we're not Irish. We're American. And it's like, but what is American and who defined what American is? Nobody actually sits and says, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But what is American? Yeah.

You know, and even in the UK, you're seeing this. Okay, but what is British? What is English? You know, and when you go now back to Africa, you even find people saying things. I remember saying to my friends one day, I said, do you ever think about how when we sit around, and I've seen this mirrored in America, we'll sit around with each other and we'll say, that's not black. Do it the black way or do it the, then I go like, but have you noticed how many times we will say that

And what we mean is it's not sophisticated. It's not considered. It's not, you know what I mean? It's self-judgmental. If it is sophisticated, if it is considered, if it is, if it has a level of panache, then we're like, ah, that's not black. And it's like, but who taught us this? Yeah, yeah. Who taught us that black is not suave? Who taught us that black is not, you know what I mean? Why does black have to be only the negative things as opposed to like an evolution of black beauty?

In addition to something that is, do you know what I mean? Yes, I know exactly what you mean. And it's a reductive identity. Yeah, completely. And one that is created by an exclusivity from another group, right? And that in itself we have to challenge because who gave us that identity? Who gave us those limited self-beliefs, you know? And we...

We get to reclaim ourselves on a daily basis. I like you using the word reclaim. I'll say this as a mother. One of my favorite stories in the podcast is the breastfeeding story. Again, involving her cousin Fiona. We'll not spoil it.

But it goes somewhere you don't think it's going to go. It's a disaster, but it's a great, like it's, yeah. But it's just like, I can't remember, whenever you think of breastfeeding, I saw African women around me breastfeeding. That's why I made the choice to do it. But when it came to me having my first son, the images I saw of women breastfeeding didn't look like me because breastfeeding has become something that is associated with being a white, affluent, privileged woman who has the time to be at home with her

child, right? But the images I saw were of my mother and my aunts. And it's funny, but like African women breastfeeding is not something that you see in

on television. It's not something that I've seen depicted, but it's something that's spoken about extensively in this episode of the podcast. And it's that reclamation of things that we also do. We also do these very special yet ordinary things, but we're not necessarily associated with it in the way we tell stories in the world right now. Hmm, how interesting. But I'm coming to that as somebody who like...

I was breastfed for a long time. Longer than I would have liked. It was only six months and it ends up being like a year and plus. And I was just like, oh, wow, this is amazing. That story, I wanted to share it because of how outrageous it is. And again, it breaks that thing of we don't share these things. Because it's actually...

I don't know how true it is that we don't share these things. And my cousins were so ready to share that story. I was so impressed with how ready they were to share the story. But it's lovely to see how it's opening up other conversations like that. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of the fact that there's been an erasure of imagery of...

Oh, yeah. You say that, like, this is stuff we're not willing to share. And I do think we share what we share in private. Exactly. So it's refreshing to hear it publicly. Because we are growing more public, right? We're growing more global. And so if we don't share these stories, then we don't, we're not present in a global context.

Yeah, that's true. And that's so important. And in the world of podcasting, I was so hungry to hear stories like this. That's why I wanted to make this podcast. And when people said no, I was just stubborn about it because I was like,

I know I'm not the only one who wants to hear these stories. I know that there are Africans out there that would appreciate this. It's exactly that, the global conversation that I wanted to contribute to for Africans to gather and see themselves with delight. And now it's time for a new segment, Coffee Connection, brought to you by Starbucks. I have to say...

What Lupita is experiencing right now in her life with the podcast and with the stories that she's connecting people to is,

is probably one of my favorite expressions of connection that I've ever seen. In what way? Well, like, we sometimes forget how wonderful and important it is to connect to ourselves and to the worlds that we've come from. You know, we always connect going forward. And I think sometimes it's only when we get really old that we think of connecting backwards. I know what you mean, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because life is always going forwards. It's always going forwards. It's always going forwards. And then you see old people

And they are really in touch with connecting backwards, sitting with their friends, talking to grandkids, talking to their kids. There's like a beautiful, and I don't know what it was like for you, but when I was growing up, that was like the number one thing that my grandmother loved to do. It was like coffee and tea. Yeah. You know, they'd be like, I want to drink coffee. I want to drink coffee. You know what I mean? And that was the thing like grannies loved. Yeah, of course.

Like African grannies. It was always like, I've got my coffee and my tea and my bread. Like my great grandmother loved coffee and then my grandmother loved tea. Yeah. And they would just sit around with their bread and their cup of whatever beverage they'd chosen. Yeah. And they would just connect. And that's where you'd hear all the stories and that's where you'd sit around. You'd hear all the gossip. That was my favorite thing. Oh, yeah. I mean, what's coffee without gossip? Yeah.

It's funny. I saw my husband's abuela yesterday. I went and saw her in the Heights. And the first thing they said to me was like, Cristiana, do you want coffee? Oh, yeah. The Dominicans, they're like, coffee is such an integral part of the culture. It really is. And it's like, you can't say no. You have to say yes. What is this style of coffee, by the way? Is it like a...

Because I know every region will have like a different vibe of coffee. Yeah, I'm going to mess it up. They make it in like this metal thing. I don't know the name of it. And they put it over the stove. Oh, yeah. Okay, I've seen those. Yeah, they put it over the stove and it's strong. It's like an espresso. And they're like, it's as much sugar as you want. But it's made with like so much love. So I couldn't say no. And then we like caught up over coffee. That's what I love. I just love, I don't know. Till this day, when I smell coffee brewing or tea,

My brain goes, there's a story coming up. It has like a warm feeling of like, tell me what's going on in your life or tell me what's happening with the neighbors. Yes, exactly. And especially like, it's kind of low stakes enough to make someone feel comfortable. Oh, I like that. Because if you say to someone, let's meet up for dinner,

Then you're like, you don't know where it's going to go. But it's coffee. It feels kind of casual. And then as time goes on, the gossip flows. If my grandmother ever said to me, Trevor, let's grab a glass of wine. And I'd be like, granny, what's going on in your life? And how can I help? That would have been a red flag for me. Well, coffee is the, what do you call it? It's a green flag. Yeah, it really is. Definitely is a green flag. All right. Well, that's our coffee break. It's time to get back into our conversation with Lupita.

It's a great day for coffee. It's a great day for Starbucks. We'll be right back with more Lupita Nyong'o. You know, listening to you talk about the journey of making your podcast, it highlights for me like the journey of like navigating what I call the data lie. So I have a few friends who are like engineers or data scientists or just work in the field. And then like some of them work at Netflix. Some of them work, you know, for Microsoft. Some of them, but they work at all these like tech companies, right?

And the biggest argument I will have with them is about data. And I always say to them, I go like, data is a liar, right? Because data looks back and then tries to assume forward. And so it's limited in what it can tell you about the world. And when I'm listening to your story, I think of how many times, it's funny, Norm, you know, who we both know as my manager, he said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second, right?

Wait. Yeah, that line really stuck. And he said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second. Okay. And I was like, what do you mean? And he explained it to me. And I was like, yeah, but this is so true. Think about how many times a story has been told, a movie has been made, a show has been created, and...

And once that shows a success, like let's say like a simple one, like The Office. You go like, no, people don't want to, you can't look at the camera and you can't. And then Ricky Gervais did it in the UK and it was obviously popular. They try things all the time. They bring it to America. I don't know. It becomes huge. And then everyone does it now. All of a sudden, Modern Family, Parks and Recreation, everyone's looking in the camera. Everyone's making a mockumentary. And now it's the most normal thing to do. You know what I mean? Yes.

And then you look at the next story, you go like, oh, let's make this. I don't know if this will, oh, is there a market? Is it going to resonate? I'm hearing the same thing here in a way. It's like you go, let's make these stories for Africans or like by Africans rather. Not even for them first. And I can see people going, oh, but Lupita, we just don't find Africans are big fans of podcasts. I've even heard people say that, by the way. And then I go like, yeah, because no offense to anyone on the podcast, but like...

Who are they relating to? Exactly. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, why is an African person going to just listen to some random podcast in Ohio? Right. And then become like, I'm a big fan of podcasts, huh? I was listening to one about the malls that are stretching throughout America. Ah, man, what the... Like, why? And I like that you... Where do you think you got that from? This sort of obstinate idea of like, I'm going to push. I'm going to... Think about everything you've done and how...

brazen and revolutionary it is. Do you know what I mean? You are a dark-skinned black woman from Kenya coming to America to act in Hollywood movies and not as extra number seven, but as lead character. Number one on the course sheet. Yeah, like when I was watching Quiet Place and I'm just like, I was watching...

I mean, I don't know if you still feel it and I hope maybe you don't because you're in it. But I was watching this and I was like, people, can we just pause for a moment? This is her movie. And I think people take for granted and no one in the cinema is going like, huh, that's interesting. When does the white star come in? No, people are just, oh, it's her from like...

where did you get that from? Like this idea that I'm going to push for the podcast. They say, no, you go, no, I'm going to do it. They go, Hey, your accent is thick. You go, no, no, I'm going to do it. You know, they go, you're from Africa. You go, I'm going to do it. Where do you, where do you get that from? Hmm. I believe it's my parents. My parents didn't raise me to be limited by my gender, my ethnicity, my nationality, my

They just didn't. And I think that that is where, because I'm so grateful that I had parents that supported me from day one. And my parents are not your conventional African parent.

They never, ever told me who I needed to be, except my mom made me take French. But other than that, like, it was all about what are you interested in and do that to the best of your ability. And because I was born in Mexico and I had this Mexican name,

I always had the feeling that I belonged to someone somewhere else other than Kenya. So I grew up always curious about this place that I was born. And I had books in Spanish that I didn't understand. And I would just pour books.

through them with a longing to one day understand. And I think those things, like those feeding me with these elements of global curiosity, really, really, I think, gave me that foundation of, I belong in the world.

And at the time, I wouldn't have said that. I don't think that I've moved through the world with like a, you know, chest out, the world's my oyster. Certainly not. But a curiosity and a disbelief that I am unwelcome. Oh, I love that. A disbelief that I am unwelcome. Yeah. Like my default is not to feel unwelcome.

My default is to seek welcome, you know. And so I don't look for rejection. I experience it. But I think I have more hope and faith than doubt as a default.

So, like, I remember when I auditioned for drama school. I came all the way from Kenya, right? My dad bought me that ticket to come to America to audition. I had three auditions. And it was NYU, it was Yale, and it was UCSD. And I

These auditions were all taking place on the East Coast. And I would go there and people were nervous and people were like checking each other out. And I was just like, I have come too far. I've just come too far to be worried about you, you and you. I just can't. I'm going to go in there. I know what I know. I don't know what I don't know. I'm going to give it my best. And then they're either going to say, yes, you come or no.

No, you go home. But like, I don't have time. I just didn't have time for self-doubt in that moment. Yeah. You know? And so I think that may have translated in the room, you know? And, and then I got to school and people were like fretting about, why do we have to do this and that? And I was like, I don't have time to fret. I,

I need to pick whatever I can from this program and make the most of it. Because again, I have just come from too far. I just cannot. I cannot be. I was so grateful also to have the opportunity to just focus on my art. I did not come from a society that was supportive of my interests. My parents were and they always were safeguarding my interests. But my experience...

extended family they were like when are you going to get serious you need to do something of mana you know which means of substance you know you when you know this this acting why don't you act like a doctor you know yeah this acting acting Amundi you have to get serious you know and I got that a lot so I was the I was often the child I was often the the the the

that my friend's parents wouldn't let me come to their house because I was a bad influence because I had... My hair was blue. Oh, wow. I was weird. You were that kid. Yeah, I was weird. I was always, like, unconventional, right? And so being that oddity, like...

By the time I got to this, I was just like, no, I got to get on with it. I can't allow for someone else's doubt to stop me. I can't allow for my own doubt to stop me. I had to externalize the rejection and not allow for myself to inflict myself with the rejection. Lupita, I'm really curious. Do you think something about...

being raised in Kenya kind of insulated you from a lot of the messages that I think young black girls, particularly dark black girls, experience in the West about colorism, complexion, hair, and

Because it seems like you just gave yourself the latitude to take up space. Yes. But, you know, I did experience colorism as well growing up. I experienced that and I experienced a lot of, I had issues with self-esteem. So I wasn't spared that. But the difference is that I came from a majority population. So my issue was not being black. It may have been being dark, but my issue was not being black. And I think, and so I was not,

othered in that same way. And as much as I was being teased by how dark I was, everybody was dark. So I'm like, what are you saying? Even you, you know? So that's how I got dark.

The self-worth thing, there was always like counters to it, right? And so I didn't have a society that was limiting me in the same way, you know? And I didn't have a political system that I was fighting against in that same way. And I had other markers of identity. I, you know, I was a woman, I was a Luo, I was upper middle class. There were other things that I was contending, anchoring and contending with than just this question of like my ex-

My external self being the only marker of my value. And I have a lot of empathy for...

The experience one must have of being raised in America where that value system is so much. It's just such a it's a lot more drastic because of the racial history paradigm and the history. And I definitely feel grateful that my identity was built internally. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this.

Wow. Yeah. So, but the idea that like my black card would be snatched from me. No, that's not a thing. That didn't exist because I didn't have, I didn't have that language. I was, you know, I didn't have that racial language. It was just, she's weird. She's just weird. Yeah. But I was not, it's not a larger, I don't know, it's just not a larger individual.

indication right so I was allowed to self even though it was met with a side eye I was allowed to self express a whole lot more and figure out my individuality without yeah without that sort of like

cultural or yeah just that tension because you have like this beautiful confidence right that you and you're very poised and you you carry it through the world and it seems like America hasn't affected it at all and that's a very difficult thing to do I would say when I came here I was like or just being raised in the west being black British you're confronted with these ideas all the time of

your value being less than, that you're always having to overcome, fight against. But you seem to retain a great sense of self. And how have you done that? I'm curious. Well, I think it helps that I came here as an adult, right? So when I first came, I was 20.

And so, and I had to, it was a crash course, learning America. And as an African, you can ignore the racial dynamics, but, oh, you're going to feel them. So I went to a liberal arts school where people were asking these questions and the idea of racial, what is it called? Just racial oppression.

theory, understanding that history was something that I was thrust into and, um, and picked up on, you know, and I, I, I have, uh, uh, uh,

a group of friends that were always inquisitive and talking about these things in very, very deep ways. I mean, we never had light conversations. It was so deep and exhausting actually. But, you know, I was able to develop a racial understanding, but in a, in a way that wasn't formative, right? It was, it was my brain first before my heart, right? My brain first.

And then, of course, doing 12 Years a Slave was very, very helpful for me because I had to go back in history and take that time personally, you know, that period of time very personally. And it really helped me understand modern day America with a lot of empathy, you know, that I can now, I felt in a very personal way. But I think I really...

I don't know. I don't know whether I have a formula or an understanding of it. It's something that I don't question, you know? And I think, like, if I try and understand it, I might jinx it. Yeah, you might lose it. I might lose it. I might lose it. But I remember, like...

My mom, there was a time when my visa ran out after my undergraduate degree. I had done 12 years a slave, but I was on OPT when I did 12 years a slave. Wow. Still on a student visa. I was on a student visa, right? Right. Wow. So that was only for a year, right? And it was running out. 12 years wasn't out yet. And I was facing this thing of like, do I...

try and stay or do I go home, you know? And I got this project that he offered me this role. I was going to play like a Nigerian maid and it was just so, and it was infuriating. It was one of those stereotypical roles that I felt was just taking me backwards if I did it. But if I did it, I got to stay in the country and pursue my dream further. And I

I couldn't take it. I couldn't take it. And my mom said to me, you have a roof over your head and people who love you in Kenya. You do not need...

to struggle in America for them to accept you. You're accepted here. And being reminded of that, that I belong somewhere, I belong to a people, I think that really bolstered me. And I chose not to do that project. And in the end, of course, everything transpired as it worked out. This is the good news. But I think I really want to give my parents credit because it's

they instilled in me self-worth that I go back to again and again. And sometimes it slips, but I have my family to remind me of who I am, right? And I know that I am not, my value doesn't come in what I've achieved. It comes from who I am and who I'm continually trying to be. I can't help but think about how important it is for countries and societies today

to adopt many of the ideas that you're speaking about now. Because I remember speaking to a friend of mine recently,

from Compton and he's a comedian and we were chatting about life as, you know, an African American and as an African and we were comparing our experiences and our lives and so many, there were so many similarities. And I, I said to, one day he looked at me and he's like, man, he's like, he's like, I ain't gonna lie. He's like, we, it feels like we live the same life. He said, he said, but man, he's like, I still wish I had, I still wish I had home. Hmm.

And I said, what do you mean by that really? And when he described it, he said something that I realized America as a whole would, I think could stand to benefit from. Hmm.

What you said in Kenya, no one could take away your black card. No one could take away your Kenyan card. Do you know what I'm saying? No one takes away like your Nigerian card. No one takes away your South African card. We will fight with each other in South Africa about everything. You're this, you're trash, you're this, you're up, you're down, whatever it might be. But no one will say you're not South African. And listening to you, I can't help but think about like how America...

has unfortunately created this system where people's belonging can be like taken away and then given back and then take, and on different levels. You look at African-Americans, it was, you're not American. Okay, you are American. And then now you complain, then you're not American. Or you're not American enough. And then you're not American enough. No, you're not. And then it's like, okay, you're not, no, you're not. How black are you? And it gets taken and it gets given and it gets, and then now it's almost extended to everyone.

How dare you complain about this country? You're not American. Maybe you need to go to another. And it's powerful to hear you saying how much peace and confidence it gives you knowing that you're here regardless of like your actions, your successes, your contributions. Your mom saying to you, hey, you have a roof. You have people who love you. Imagine the power that would have like when a country would say that. Hey.

Yeah, you don't agree with this. You don't, you're still American. Yeah, you're enough. You're enough. That is such a powerful thing. Yeah, to really, truly believe that you're enough. But for a country to support that narrative, I think something that America does really well is...

create narratives about itself. Definitely. Right? And that's why you can, it's like you either fit the narrative or you don't. Who's determining which narrative is the American narrative? You know, there is that thing and it is unfortunate. And it's only now that I'm realizing, talking to you, the way that you

My consciousness is different because my Kenyanness has never been in question. Even when they're fighting between Kenya and Mexico about where I belong. Like for me, there's no question. Right. And also, I'm not limited to that.

that paradigm. Yes. You know, like I'm not trying to be Kenyan. I just am. Yes. Right. I don't have to prove that I'm Kenyan. Exactly. Even if people would want me to, I don't have to prove it. And like, I also realized my father fought, has been fighting for the country. I mean, we gave up, we, we basically, uh, growing up, he was like more, uh,

there for the country oftentimes than with us right and so the fact that that blood sweat tears I've my uncle disappeared and was never found again my family has fought for that country in such a way that like it belongs to me and I remember when um when I when I was here and I was working on my green card and working towards citizenship I was debating whether I was going to

apply for citizenship. And I asked my dad, like, daddy, what does it mean if I apply to be a citizen of America? Like, how does that make you feel? He was like, I'm Wundi.

That country is yours as much as this one. The world is yours. This idea of borders is something we made up, you know. So we get to belong, you know. And it's unfortunate that there's political systems that want to convince you that you don't belong. But you're of the earth, you know, and it's yours to claim. I love that idea. And whenever I meet people who don't fully understand it, I've come to realize that

that they do it in their own lives without knowing, you know? So people were like, well, you got to choose. I don't like it when people say they're, they're, you know, something American. I don't like it when people say there's something. Then I go like, but you, you do that as well. I'm like, where do you live? And without even flinching, you'll tell me, well, I mean, I'm between, you know, I'm, I'm between New York and Connecticut. I'm, I'm, I'm between Florida and New York. I'm like, people do it all the time. There's, there's, there's a, there's a,

honesty in duality that exists you know you you can be like both a mother and a woman and the two while they overlap aren't necessarily the same thing all the time yeah you know what i'm saying you can be young and this you can be you know what i mean it's like ambiguity it really is and it's the nuance and ambiguity that i that i think is is really beautiful

But I would love to know where you see these stories or these ideas going. Your whole journey has been such a wonderful evolution. As you say, it's like 12 years a slave. You...

You would be forgiven if you took the path that was presented to you after 12 Years a Slave, which is like, okay, you do this very well. And so we would like you to do it forever. And I must also say, this question is not about Hollywood per se. It's just that you happen to work in a film industry. But I think a lot of people deal with this. You did something well. And so the world said to you, hey, do more of it.

And then you went and did something completely different. And they said, oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Okay, do more of that. And then you said, no, I'm going to do something completely different. And they go, okay, do more of that and do more of that. But here you are, I mean, with a podcast that is telling stories about Africans that everyone can enjoy, by the way. I hope people listen to understand. They're really funny and interesting. And the best way I can explain it to you is,

Don't go like, oh, but will I get it? It's an African story. I go like, no, think of it this way. All food basically has the same ingredients. We just cook with different spices and different flavors. And so it's like, try a story with a different flavor. That's really all it is. I like that. And so I'd love to know where you would like to see this evolution continue towards. Like, what does Lupita dream of doing beyond just telling the stories on the podcast? And I know you're always thinking bigger. Where do you hope to go now? Well, my...

My secret intention with the podcast is that, first of all, I wanted to popularize African perspective. Because one of the challenges is that when you go in with an idea for an African story, they're still scratching the head, like, who's the audience for this, you know, and all that. So that was, my intention was to popularize African perspective in the hopes that maybe some of these will be a movement.

movie one day, you know? And like, it gives more of an opportunity for people to be like, oh yeah, it seems familiar, you know? And it's a, it's a light lift. You just spend 40 minutes with me once a week. That's not much to ask. You're in traffic anyway. And so in that sense, hopefully it works on the subconscious of, of people who are not African, who are not familiar with Africa to just, um,

it as familiar in a way that then we can grow and contribute to it becoming more of a global perspective. So there's that. I love that idea. I really do. And I think if there's one person who is genuinely just...

and, you know, stubborn enough to achieve, it is you. No, because you push, like your line, it'll really stick with me. It's like not expecting the rejection, not accepting the rejection, experiencing it, but really saying, no, you know what?

This is where I'm going. This is what I'm trying to do. And the world is a better place for it. Thank you for spending the time with us. Thank you for sharing the beautiful stories. I know Wild Robot is out as well. That's going to be amazing for people to watch. Lupita Nyong'o, as always, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. Appreciate you. Yeah.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?