Trevor and Friends: What’s Diddy Got To Do With It?
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I'm just going to share it with the world, but I genuinely believe Trevor is a CIA asset. Wow. I just think it's funny how you show up to places

And they change. That's the interesting thing to me, because that's what the CIA does. They just show up. You said I show up to places and they change. That's what you said, Trevor. Wow. Wow. These are my friends. You come to America next week, you know, Trump's in power. Coincidence, much? I don't know. These are my friends. We are absolutely your friends. So that when the CIA comes for us, you could be like, no, they are cool. I like them. Don't touch them.

You're listening to What Now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. This week, we chat about the Oscars and why good-looking people can never win an award. We also ask whether your grandmother should put all her money in Bitcoin. And we look at what the latest allegations against Puff Daddy reveal about masculinity in hip-hop.

Now, the only thing I love more than peeling back the layers of a story is doing it with some of my favorite thinkers. So once again, I'm joined by writer, journalist, and, in my opinion, professional hater, Christiana Mbagwe. And stand-up comedian, late-night TV writer, and human chill pill, Josh Johnson. ♪

Josh and Cristiano, you're recording your audio? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm getting megabytes over here. Okay, everybody's on. Everybody's on. My name is Trevor Noah, and this is What Now? This episode is presented by Lululemon. Everyone has those moments where they say, not today, when it comes to fitness. I mean, I know I do.

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All right. Happy podcast day, everybody. Happy podcast day, man. Happy podcast day. Good to see you guys. It's fantastic seeing all of you. How's the week been? Good. Josh, you look good. You look healthy. Christiana, you look rested, which is always a compliment for a mom. Yeah, I'll take it. I've been called worse.

Yeah, yeah, just doing shows in Birmingham, Alabama. Ah, nice. That's one of my favorite places to be, actually. I like that. Talking about places to be, Trevor, where are you right now? Where in the world are you? You know, when most people ask me that question, Christiana, they ask it with a curiosity and a flicker of joy in their eyes. You ask it as if you're accusing me of something. Yeah.

Because he's always in different parts of the world. Traveller. He speaks many languages. South African. And I actually think his conception was planned. Wow. It just doesn't, none of it makes sense. So Trevor, where are you and why did the CIA send you there? Okay, so...

I will first of all deny the accusations. The CIA has sent me nowhere. And I'm coming to you from the United Arab Emirates, Dubai, Habibi. Nice. Hello, my friend. My friend, how are you? How are you? I'm having a great time. Actually, I was in...

Qatar, and then I was in Abu Dhabi, and I was in Bahrain, and now I am in Dubai. It's fun being in this region. I'm not going to lie to you. It's an interesting place to be because there are few places in the world

that you get to see transforming rapidly. Like I know everyone has opinions about the Middle East and parts of it, but I've been to few places in the world where every five years I see like a massive jump in how they think, what they're developing, who lives there, how they accept people. It's really wild. I loved it. I loved it. I did almost get arrested though at the airport in Abu Dhabi. I was, so I got pulled aside

for additional screening, which never happens to me. It's been a while since that happened to me. I wonder why you don't get pulled aside for additional screening, but go on. Objection, objection, Your Honor. But I'm having a blast out here. And no, please, I am not a CIA operative. Well, this entire story and description of why you like the Middle East so much has been a horrible denial. I

I feel like for the most part, my man is telling us, you're telling us, oh, I love to watch how, you know, everything changes around a society every five years, much like the CIA does. And you also didn't help your case by the listener cannot see you potentially, but you showed up looking like the reboot to Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

Wow. You got the black all black. I'm wearing a black hoodie. It is evening time for me in Dubai. I'm just trying to be warm. And okay, let me ask the two of you this. Let me ask the two of you this. Like, have you been anywhere in the world where you've actively seen the place developing and changing, like literally in front of your eyes? Not your parents going, oh, it used to be like this when we were children. This place used to act like, I mean...

Have you been anywhere where you've seen that? I live in the Western world, so I'm just watching the active demise. I'm just watching it go backwards. I'm watching America go backwards. I've watched England go backwards. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I will say this. Yes, I am often in countries that...

that are changing or change very rapidly after I've visited them. However, I don't think this is any of my doing. I'm not part of the CIA, nor have I done anything to any other country. I'm just excited to visit countries when I see the spark of change. For instance, I'll give you an example. When I first came to Dubai, if you were watching movies at the cinema,

half of them would like have Arabic subtitles or they would be dubbed or they do you know what I mean now when you're here in the region you're just watching the movies everyone is there like people in the region speak English they watch the same movies that you're watching the same TV shows that you're watching like people are literally excited for Dune for instance Dune 2 everyone here was telling me it's like the most perfect movie of all time

And I think maybe it's that. I would put the CIA behind Hollywood in helping to shape the world, to be honest with you. I mean, Hollywood is a CIA tool. No, Christiana, not everything can be CIA. Not everything can be CIA. Now you're making me sound like a conspiracy theorist. But it's like, they are...

I have to be very careful now because I work in this town. I love Hollywood. Hollywood is a great place. Okay, disclaimer out of the way. Disclaimer out of the way. But I will say that like Hollywood has also been used as a propaganda tool, especially to actually demonize a lot of the regions that you like going to.

Yeah, definitely. I'm surprised that so many people in the Middle East are excited to watch Dune because now I feel like when I travel, people seem to be more into what's coming out of Korea or what's coming out of Africa or it's very localized and regionalized. I think there's just less influence in just Western countries.

Art and culture. Like Barbie for me, like really took me by surprise because I can't remember the last time there was an American movie outside of like the Marvel type of stuff. People around the world are like, we want to watch that. Now I just feel it's like, oh, we're going to watch Squid Game, Korean. You know, to your point, actually, I wonder if it's less that America has lost influence in the world in that way or Hollywood,

And more that, I don't know, like everyone having their own thing, everyone having their own TikTok feed, everyone having their own Instagram, YouTube, etc. I wonder if Hollywood holds the same relevance anywhere, to be honest with you. Because, okay, like let's look at the Oscars coming up, right? Like this week, we're going to have the Oscars. Now, I don't know about you.

But I feel like every year, the Oscars has become less and less relevant in the zeitgeist. Just people chatting about, oh, the Oscars is coming up. This movie's on, that movie's on. It feels like to me, and this is anecdotal, but it feels like Hollywood and the Oscars are becoming sort of less relevant. I know more people who have watched like a video of some guy in Columbia who took his shirt off to like run away from people shooting at him than people who have watched Poor Things.

which I hear is fantastic. So I would say yes to all of that, except this year. This feels like the first year where people care again because so many movies that also happen to be popular were incorporated into the Academy votes.

Like, I think that in the past years, there have been movies... You mean because of Barbie and Oppenheimer? Barbie, Oppenheimer. I think poor things actually did do really well on a commercial level. Yeah. Because so many people had feelings that that's how I know it maintains some relevance. Yeah. Like, it wasn't the regular outrage. It was actually like, wow, how do you... I mean, I said this. I was like...

You know, you may not think that Barbie deserves all the Oscars or anything, but it does feel weird to have some people in the movie nominated and not Barbie. That feels to me a lot like when you let's say we talking about the 90s bulls and we're like, man, Pippin was great and Dennis Rodman was great. And then there was this other guy. I can't remember his name, but there was another guy that was very good. Very, very good. Can I tell you my theory?

This is not going to be popular, but I will say, I think there are some people who are voting for which person gets an Oscar nod who think that Margot Robbie is not acting because she looks like Margot Robbie and is Margot Robbie. And I think that those same voters will go like, oh, Ryan Gosling is acting because we know him as all these other things. We definitely know that he is acting. And the reason I say this is because I've always noticed that

that every year the Oscars will come out with a foreign movie that's done really well and not in the best foreign film category because that's different. I'm saying a movie that's foreign and it's nominated in the main category, the best film. Have you noticed almost every year like Parasite was nominated and

And then the actors weren't. And then I think it was one, which was like a really special occurrence. Slumdog Millionaire. The movie was nominated. Yeah. And then the actors weren't. And I sometimes think it's because some people are like, you know, that movie was, I mean, that was spectacular. That was just great. That was great. And you're like, well, the way they were acting. It's like, well, I mean, I don't know if they were acting. I think they were just being Indian. Yeah. We just captured...

the Indian-ness and I mean to see what was going on I mean it's powerful and then the filmmaker gets the credit but the people in the movie they're just like yeah you are a slumdog you know yeah Margot is just like the curse of beauty like I mean she's blonde

Blue eyed. So she kind of like won the genetic lottery in terms of like the benefits that come with it. But the curse of beauty is also being like, we do not believe you can act like a Barbie. You must be a Barbie. Yes, that's what I mean. So I think I think you're completely right, Trevor. Yeah. Yeah. Now you'll have to correct me, Trevor, because now now I think to to your point and going further, I don't think that a white person has ever won the Oscar for a slave movie.

Because I think that also feels like, nah, you meant that. You see? You meant that the whole movie. This is a powerful, I feel like we've just made a powerful, powerful realization, the three of us right now. I don't know if it was the three of us. It was really your idea that really changed our mind. No, no, no, we did this together. This is some CIA operative type stuff. I wasn't thinking like this before we hopped on the call. No, no, no. CIA Jedi mind trick right there. No, no, no. Huh. Has a white person ever won an Oscar?

for acting in a slave movie. Because Leonardo DiCaprio was phenomenal in Django. Oh. But I don't think he was nominated. A bit too phenomenal. A bit too phenomenal. Yeah, I mean, I, ooh, ooh, ooh. Ooh.

Ooh, look a booger. Like sometimes you see them, and especially I hate when my, when an actor I really, really love is the white person in a slave movie, the same way that I hate when someone I like runs for office. I'm like, oh, you about to ruin my whole image of you because I can't unsee it. Yeah. I cannot unsee what you're about to do. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this.

I'm excited for this year's ones. I don't know. I thought Barbie was fun. I think Greta Gerwig did an amazing job with a very commercial property. Like, you know, how do you even make a movie out of doll? Like, people forget that there was no Barbie storyline. It was just Barbie.

Barbie has houses and cars and lives a good life. That shows you never played with Barbies, Trevor. What are you talking about? I played with Barbies. There was no storyline. Tell me the storyline. We imagined then. Yes, but that's what I'm saying. There was no fixed... Like, I'm saying, like, there are other, like...

or properties where they were created with a storyline from the very beginning. Like I had my own storyline for Barbie. For instance, in my world, whenever I played with Barbie, she was always, always sneaking off to hook up with He-Man because I didn't have a Ken doll. I did have a Barbie because Barbies you could find everywhere. By the way, I don't know if you've experienced this when you travel. There are Barbies in every country in the world. Like we had Barbie in like the dusty townships in South Africa. Someone had a Barbie doll

I don't know how, but everyone had one. I mean, it's kind of how white supremacy works, right? You're like, oh, damn. I think the most amazing thing that they've done is that they've reclaimed a really messed up image of beauty and turned it into like this pseudo feminist empowerment. But isn't that what made Bobby so good was the fact that it was

they had everyone be Bobby now. So you had the Issa Rae Bobby, you had the America Ferreira Bobby, you had the, you know what I mean? Terrible. Yeah. That's how white supremacy works. We're like, we're actually going to embed you into the system. You're not going to disrupt it. Like, Bobby still isn't fat. Like,

Like it's revolutionary if like Barbie is really fat, what's considered unattractive, doesn't have typical features. And you're like, I want to be that. But no one wants to be that. You're still like Issa Rae is like a goddess. She's so beautiful. This is not disruptive. Like I just I just hate that it's being seen as a disruptive feminist project. But it's genius. They're genius. I would love to make a billion dollar movie. Trust me, I would love to do it.

All right, let me ask you this then. Let me ask you this. So do we then say that the same thing should be applied to boys' toys? Because if you take away Barbie and all of that, like the Ninja Turtles had six packs in a shell, by the way, which always used to confuse me. Like, you know, Batman had like the six pack on his outfit, by the way, which I always thought was hilarious because I was like, that's like a new level of vanity where you go like, I'm going to fight crime. I'm going to save Gotham City.

And by the way, Alfred, can you ask Q to make sure they got a six-pack on the outside of the suit? I gotta... Why? Why? Why, Master Wayne? That's not the sort of purpose. I mean, it looks pretty cool, Alfred. You got like a... You know what I mean? Just like a six-pack. Because I always thought it was weird. But if you think about all the boys' toys, He-Man, Spider-Man, you name it. Anything man, whatever, had like buff arms, six-pack. Yeah. And so...

Is it bad to have something aspirational be something that applies to like you pushing yourself to be or look the best you can be? Absolutely. I think like those boys... Wait, you're saying it is bad? Yeah, it is bad. Even like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I feel so sorry for men like watching those movies, watching like Captain America and like all these ripped men. Because like most men cannot look like that without like...

starving themselves, steroids, being in the gym all the time. I think it's terrible for men's body image, but generally I don't try and think about men's feelings too much because, you know, men want in other ways. So it's not like boohoo men, but as a mother of a boy, now I have to care. And I'm like, actually, I don't like that.

I hate that having a son, because I don't like men apart from my husband, has made me care about what happens to men. So as a mother of a boy, I think it's actually, I think it's terrible. A few things. I will pitch you this because off of what Christiana is saying, I do think that there's something interesting where there will be a thing in the

movie that then translates into real life in a way that makes people's heads spin so for what christiana is saying about like yes even though barbie even in the movie is trying to be like oh there's not just one bar but we can all be barbie and everything in real life it's translated to why isn't this like you know beautiful white woman the winner winning it all right much like how

Robert Downey Jr., everyone wanted him to win for Tropic Thunder in the blackface. So we went so full circle where he was like, he was so good that blackface, he should have won the Oscar. He was phenomenal. He was very good. I still think that is one of the most misunderstood roles or movies ever. And people can fight about it forever. But I always loved...

the satire of what Robert Downey Jr.'s character was doing. It was like a commentary on Hollywood itself. It was a commentary on acting and what are you allowed to do in the pursuit of acting? And is it no holds barred because you're acting? Like we're talking about with slave roles, it's like, can you just run around saying the N-word because you're in a slave movie? I love that role so much. I feel like people should have studied Tropic Thunder. Like when he grabs...

I think it's like Brandon T. Jackson, he grabs him after Brandon T. Jackson says the N-word and he grabs him and he's like, "Boy, don't you ever use that word. Our people fought too hard to never use that word, boy. Our people fought too hard. Don't you dare use that word around me, boy." That is one of the greatest scenes, in my opinion, in movie history. That, Josh, should have won an Oscar.

By the way, who do you think is going to win? I think Oppenheimer is taking it for everything. Yeah, because everyone loves a brilliant white man. So, of course. Christiana, he's a fan. What do you mean? It's also... Okay, I will say this. I like that you said brilliant. I do think he's brilliant. I think that people, they like heroes and they like those people to be men. And the Academy voter likes to feel important, likes to be like, I am a Christopher Nolan fan. And that's why I think he's going to win. And it's not his fault.

He didn't ask to be born a brilliant white man, but he was, and here we are. Well, either way, we'll see. I'm putting all of my money on Oppenheimer because I think it was a brilliant movie about a man who's brilliant, who happened to be white. That's where I put all of my money or all of my Bitcoin. I think I'm switching all my money to Bitcoin. Don't do that. Christiana, you... Actually, wait, wait, wait. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you. Do you have Bitcoin, Christiana? No. Ah, okay.

Do you remember there was a moment in time, I want to say six years ago, where on Black Twitter specifically, Black women were telling other Black women, get Bitcoin because this is like your... Do you remember this? And I didn't listen to them. Because once Black people start telling each other stuff on the internet, it tends to be bad advice. I know.

I love my people. But sometimes on the internet, we get into corners of the world. That was when I was like, no, fiat currency for me. I just don't have the appetite for that type of risk. But I do know it's the future. And I'm going to have to contend with it at some point. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's weird because I saw... So, okay, for those who don't know, there's a really important moment coming up in Bitcoin, right? Obviously, the price of Bitcoin has essentially doubled over the past few months because...

the securities exchange has allowed a trading platform, blah, blah, blah. Don't worry. The point is Bitcoin is not as shady as it used to be when it comes to trading. Just think of it that way. However, there is something I find fascinating and that is very shortly, there's a moment that's going to come. It sounded biblical. That's why I found it interesting where they said the Bitcoin harvening is upon us. And I don't know if you know of this, but apparently the way Bitcoin is designed is

Every few years, at a certain amount of time, the mining of Bitcoin becomes exponentially harder, right? And with that jump, you make less money in mining Bitcoin. And if you make less money in mining Bitcoin, there are fewer people who are going to mine it and there will be fewer Bitcoins made. And so that is supposed to preserve Bitcoin.

the value of Bitcoin and not allow inflation to just go out of control. Because there's going to be limited Bitcoin, apparently. That's what's written into the code. And I mean, I'll believe it when I see it. I don't know anything about it in this way. I know enough about Bitcoin to have a conversation, but I don't want to know so much about Bitcoin that I have like an underground basement in my house. Yeah, I feel you. Yes, you can mark my words that this will go poorly and do not get into Bitcoin now. This

This is the, if you, if you got into it right when it dipped or at the very beginning, then you will be fine. But this is, this is bad. And I think people don't recognize how bad it is because yes, it's becoming less shady, but that's incidental. It's not becoming less shady.

from the same people trying to make it a commodity. Please note that the views of Josh Johnson are the views of Josh Johnson. Josh Johnson is not a financial advisor. Do not listen to Josh Johnson. Also, don't listen to me. I'm just talking about Bitcoin. Also, save your money. Yeah, look, I just think it's, there's something fun about it. I always find it fun

When there's a random destabilizing thing that is in the ether. Do you know what I mean? Said like a true CIA agent. Oh my goodness. Sometimes they destabilize entire regions. If I love the CIA, why would I like Bitcoin? What are you talking about? You could move dark.

You can move dark easier. It's true. It's true. It's true. You think the CIA doesn't know how to Venmo money without you knowing? You think the CIA agents who are like, I want to destabilize Ecuador, but the emojis keep giving me away. What do we do? Come on, Josh. No, no. You think they need Bitcoin? You're getting closer and closer to the MI5. I don't know. I just like the idea of it. I think...

I sometimes do think this, and I'm going to regret saying this because Christiana, as my friend, you will always pounce on my weaknesses, but I do like the idea of having something like Bitcoin in my life in case I ever need to like disappear or go. I've always thought to myself, it's crazy that your money is just like somewhere and then you have to ask somebody for it and then someone else can be like, no.

We're not giving you your money. And it's because I grew up in a culture where

All my grandmother's money was either in her bra or under the mattress. That's where the money stayed. In her bra, under the mattress. And then when I would say to her, Gogo, why don't you put the money in the bank? And then she would be like, whose bank is this? And I was like, what do you mean, Gogo? It's, I don't know, it's the bank. I'm like a six-year-old. She's like, whose bank is this, Trevor? And then I'm like, it's the, I don't know, it's the bank. And she's like, and when I want my money?

I was like, you go to the bank and she's like, and what if the bank says no? And I was like, why would they say no? She's like, if they say no, I was like, well, then you don't get your money. She's like, exactly, exactly. And then she'd give me the money that I just asked for out of her bra and she'd like go through it and then she'd hand me a note and it would be warm and would smell like my grandmother's warm bosom.

It was a very homely feeling. I liked that. I liked knowing when we were passing money around back in the day that we were passing around like a family feeling as well. I miss that. But, but, but. And by the way, this is not me endorsing Bitcoin. I'm closer to Josh on all of this. I'm like, I don't know about this stuff.

But there's just something about like somebody saying you can't do something with your money or have your money that sometimes makes me a little, you know, I just think it's exciting.

that the Bitcoin harvening is approaching us. It's like the rapture, but for Bitcoin. I'm excited for that moment. Yeah. I mean, I'll just say very, very quickly, I don't know everything in and out of Bitcoin or cryptocurrency, but I do know scams. I've been scammed many times. And so I know what scams look like. But I also know when a scammer comes back around because you were so gullible the first time that they're like, I get a little bit extra. Yeah.

And so I know what this looks like. And I'm telling you right now, it's like when my friend sold knives and then he sold supplements. It's the same pyramid scheme, just with a different sort of casing around it. Knives and pyramid schemes. Well, on that note, let's go sell a few knives and supplements and we'll be right back. So, um...

Every week when we're recording the podcast, I always think to myself, what is the story I'm dying, and I mean dying, to speak to Josh and Christiana about? And this week, undoubtedly, is the story of Diddy, a.k.a. Sean Combs, a.k.a. P. Diddy, a.k.a. Brother Love, a.k.a. Sean P. Diddy Combs, Brother Love.

Puff Daddy. Puff Daddy. Yeah, I was just trying to make sure I get all of them. Now, wait, before you say something, Josh, before you say something, I'm going to try and bring everybody up to speed on this. So if you do not know who Puff Daddy is, I cannot help you. I'm shocked that you listened to this podcast because he seems to have spanned every generation and everything. I'm still grateful for you as a listener, though. But for those who do know him, Puff Daddy, P. Diddy, Sean Combs, Brother Love, Diddy, etc.,

has recently had a few incidents that have shaken up his otherwise rosy world. His ex, Cassie, who was a very popular R&B singer for a while, sued him

and accused him of everything from sexual assault all the way through to domestic violence, battery, et cetera. Let's put it this way. The allegations were so extreme that they had a trigger warning on the actual court documents, which is rare. That happens. Diddy comes out and denies it, then very quickly settles out of court. It's a whole huge thing. So just like most stories in the internet and the zeitgeist, it goes up, it goes down, it disappears. Now,

Just a few days slash weeks ago, I don't even know when this really popped up, another person sues Diddy and alleges similar things.

But this is a man, right? And says he worked for Diddy. He says there were orgies with underage women. There's a history of abuse. You know, Diddy would flash himself to the guy. He'd be naked. He'd make him watch him shower. And then he'd tell him it's part of the job. And when he discussed it with his superiors, this employee was told that he should just get over himself. And Diddy likes him. But what was really interesting in this story, in this moment, rather, is that

The documents that came out, the court documents, had a few allegations that were redacted. Like when the CIA has those documents where they black out people's names because they should not be revealed because they're important to the mission or to national security.

names were redacted on these new court documents. However, some of the redactions left descriptions that some people feel are really easy to figure out. So for instance, one of the redactions, and this I stand to be corrected, I mean, allegedly one of the redactions was, this person blank, blank, blank was also there and they performed at the Super Bowl halftime show recently. And people were like, huh?

And like, we think we know who that is. And there was another one. There's another one. One of the biggest ones is of an allegation that Diddy had sex with a rapper whose name was redacted

but has now been speculated to be Meek Mill. Speculated, like nobody knows who the names are in the document, right? Now, Meek Mill came out and he denied this, but I mean, even his denial tells you a lot about hip hop. It wasn't just a denial like, hey, listen, I'm not gay. There's nothing wrong with being gay. And, you know, I don't know why people are spreading rumors about me.

He denied it like he had been accused of a crime, like a real big, which I understand. I understand, you know. It was really, really intense to see. And that didn't stop. I mean, if the internet loves anything, it's somebody coming out and defending themselves. And this has lit the internet ablaze. What's really interesting about this as well is the fact that Diddy, when the original case with Cassie happened, when it came out,

he lost all of his corporate support. So Diageo, the alcohol brand, pulled out. A few of the TV productions he was doing pulled out. That side of his world collapsed. But in a strange way, it seemed like hip-hop didn't really shun him. And the internet, I know it's a strange thing to say, but it's almost like the internet almost moved on. Whereas with this, it feels like in the first instance, Diddy lost corporations,

And then with this story, he lost the internet. Do you know what I mean? Those stories and ideas don't seem to have made as big a splash

As the possibility and the allegation that he and another rapper are gay. Like, have the two of you seen that at all? I've seen it. I will say this for, you know, especially for the allegations and everything. Diddy has too many aliases to be an innocent man. That's you don't go by that many names if you didn't do anything. Everywhere I go, I am Josh Johnson. I'm not Jay Jiggle. I'm not Jajong.

I am Josh Johnson. That's what it says on the birth certificate and on the passport. I'm not running around here with all sorts of different names. That sounds like you tried to dodge the case. I agree. Very suspicious. But to your point, Trevor, to your original question, I do think that there's something to be said in a lot of hip hop culture outside of being like,

a Lil Nas X where you're not only coming out, but you're like, I'm going to embrace every, uh, every insult or every stereotype or like, I'm actually going to make everything that you say against me armor and just like have it a reflection back at you. I think that for a different era of hip hop, that it's,

They truly do not see a world where they can be gay or bi or anything other than the most masculine. Because you gotta remember that most of hip hop comes from a place of hyper-masculinity. And on top of that hyper-masculinity is also being like street enough, being hood enough, which is a whole exponential squaring of the amount of masculinity that a regular man should be walking around with. So the idea, which look, if you ask me, they're looking at it wrong. If you ask me, it's-

It's terrifyingly gangster to be like, I might bang you. I could shoot you or I could touch you up. I could do anything. That's way scarier to me than just like not seeming hood enough. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's difficult to have these conversations because...

There are so many potential landmines. So I start by saying this. One, these are allegations. I'm not saying that Diddy is or isn't gay, bisexual, anything. I don't know. I don't know that Meek Mill is, isn't gay, bisexual, whatever. I also think it's their prerogative. It's like, hey, man, if they are, they are. If they aren't, they aren't. Live your life, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I honestly believe that. And what I find interesting in this conversation is how, you know, to your point, Josh, it's become...

Like, I don't know how to explain it. It's become an allegation in and of itself. It's like that is the allegation. Yeah, I don't know. You know what I mean? I wonder where it'll lead. I think it's really disturbing that some people are more alarmed at the potential that Diddy could be gay or bisexual than Diddy being a rapist and an abuser. And I'm just like, that's kind of scary to me because like...

What happened to Cassie? Just, I remember when that New York Times article came out about it and then I later read the lawsuit. It was really hard to get through. And then this man, if what he's saying is true, is meaning he was being like coerced and assaulted and harassed at his workplace.

And I'm like, the sexuality to me is, I don't care. I care that this guy is potentially a monster. Why aren't we just like, why are we discussing, you know, who he's attracted to? I don't care about the attraction. I care about the fact that this is somebody that seems to have a history and a pattern of violence towards men and women. Like, that to me, he's not a safe person. It also makes you wonder.

if and when the music industry will ever have a Me Too moment. Because there's no denying that, you know, the Me Too movement completely swept through Hollywood. But a lot of people kept saying, when will music have its day?

Will it have its day? Or is it just a completely different world? And it feels like this could be the first crack in the eggshell. The Cassie lawsuit to me is like, it was scary. And I think with Diddy, we're getting to the point where we're majoring on the minor parts of the case rather than looking at the fact that he's a scary man. So I've been thinking about this quite a bit. And I was wondering, is it because...

else that he is accused of he has in some way shape or form sort of said that he does or is in his music you know like when you're a hip-hop artist if you go back especially and you listen to like Diddy's music and a lot of hip-hop guys were saying I will kill you you

You know, I will end your life. In a weird way, it's like this is terms and conditions. This is who we are. This is what we do. Now, over the years, I do think hip hop evolved or rather the artist's experience evolved. But then a lot of hip hop and what the lyrics were was sort of maintained. Like people were like, I'm still going to rap about this, even though I don't sling dope or, you know, shoot people or whatever. I don't accept that premise because Quentin Tarantino makes deeply, deeply violent films.

Right? Yeah. Way more violent than actually any hip hop album you listen to. Like you watch Kill Bill, you're like, what the heck is going on in this guy's brain? Yeah. But that doesn't make me think that like Quentin Tarantino goes around and- But he doesn't say, no, but he doesn't say it's about him. I think that's the key difference. But that's the thing with hip hop.

With hip hop, Quentin Tarantino never says, this is what I do. You know what I mean? But this is why I think it's also becomes very racialized because people don't imagine that young black men or young black women can be imaginative and playful in their work. Because most rappers, maybe they've been exposed to some violence, but they're not necessarily doing it. It's a fantasy. I'll be honest with you. I've always felt...

that America doesn't necessarily celebrate the cleaning up of the image that hip-hop had the same way it'll celebrate it for the Rockefellers and that whole generation. You know, there was a whole generation of people in America who were these men who, you know, bootlegged liquor, who had underground operations, who basically committed crimes. And then they cleaned up their act over time or they were able to find a way to make legitimate money. And those families get celebrated in America and people are like, yeah, but that's the American dream. You know, he came up and he changed his life. That's how it is.

I feel like hip hop artists have done a very similar thing. You know, they've gone, this is what I used to do. I used to sling dope. I used to do, and you cannot deny, go back to like Ice-T and those guys,

Christiana, they were in it, in it, in it. They were not third-person-ing saying, I saw something. But this is a bigger thing. I think if they were really in it, they'd be dead. Like, to me, and that's my objection to Jay-Z. A lot of them are, though. But a lot of them are. Some of them, like, and this is a thing that I experienced growing up in South London. I don't know. The guys that were really, really in the mix were in the mix, and then there were guys that spoke about being in the mix, but they weren't really in the mix. I mean, whether that's the case or not, I think that...

These men don't say in their music all the time, we rape and brutalize women. That's not stuff that Diddy spoke about in his music. To me, because Diddy always kind of made party music, in my opinion. He always made it seem fun, like everyone's there to have a good time. Like, I think in hip hop, even though people speak about violence and shooting and killing and horrible things...

There's very few rappers who can be like, oh, I will rape a woman, starve a woman and then lock her in a hotel room and pay off the hotel staff and say she can't leave until her face heals up. Like that's even beyond the pale for hip hop. I'm totally with you. I agree with you. But I do think there is an explanation for it that is quite easy.

I think many people, when hearing an allegation about something that happened a while ago or an allegation where somebody's seeking some sort of remuneration, there are many people who think that that is automatically a lie. Take it away from hip-hop. Take it away from Diddy. Countless times, a woman has come forward. Me Too was a great example. They would say, this happened to me too. And what was one of the number one responses that they got from people? It was...

well, why are you only coming out now? Why didn't you say something back then? There's definitely a reflex that people have in denying the experience of a woman who was abused by somebody she was with

whether it's a woman or not, because even with this guy, people have said the same thing. This is a man. And people have said, oh, he's only coming out now. Oh, now he's going to talk about Diddy being naked. Oh, now he's going to. Seems to me like somebody saw Cassie's money and now he wants some of that money. And I understand that. I understand it. I don't agree with it, but I understand that inclination that people have. What's interesting to me, though, in this situation is how the same level of skepticism

hasn't been applied uniformly and this is what I mean is like if the guy in this case came out and if he said Diddy did this to me Diddy did this to other people and Diddy was having sex with other men and the people who heard this said I don't believe any of it or I believe all of it

I understand. I find it particularly fascinating that people will say, but this, oh, this is the bombshell. For me, it is such a fascinating look into both hip hop and

Toxic masculinity. I almost feel like someone should study it so we can really look at what this moment reveals about society. If I understand what you're asking, I think I can offer up a thing that makes sense to me of why this is the thing. Yeah, please.

I do believe a little bit of what you're saying as far as like, it's not an indictment overall on hip hop, but there's something about walking around with a persona. But to Christiana's point, Diddy called it a tail feather. He was making radio clean party music. So it's like not a whole he was telling us who he was the entire time. But I also think that the idea that a woman might...

tell a story to make money or to defame someone or something like that is one thing in people's minds. I don't think anyone is walking around thinking, especially a straight man,

is lying to get money or is lying to defame a person. If a straight man tells you that another man did this thing to him, because this is a thing that a lot of dudes take to the grave. Like a lot of dudes get abused and they're like, I'm never telling anybody because a lot of men, especially in a hyper-masculine environment, live in a world where they're kind of like living in jail.

The most hyper-masculine place is jail. And then there are some men who, even outside of jail, live in this hyper-masculine space, where being perceived as weak, being perceived as gay, being perceived as a victim is an automatic ticket to more victimization. So they're like, guys, I'll die. Nothing happened. You know what I mean? And so the fact that a straight man is like, look, he got me too, is a bombshell. Because that means that

This guy's willing to put himself out there in the way that women already do. I'm not I'm not saying that it's easy. No, no, no. It's interesting. But as a guy to be publicly known as someone who was, you know, deeply, deeply abused and exploited. Right. You're going to wear that for the rest of your life in a public way now.

And so nobody's lying about that. And I'm not saying nobody's and it can't happen. And I'm not saying nobody as in women do. I'm saying that like this thing is such a different thing. Yeah. It's poignant and it's painful actually. It's...

Yeah, because men are victims too of sexual and physical abuse as women, especially black boys in terms of just like sexual assaults, how they lose their virginities, how they're exposed to violence from men and women in their life. It's very common. But...

But black boys and men are very often not perceived as victims. Do you know what I mean? And so, like, I think Terry Crews is a great example of that. When he came forward and said that he'd been like fondled by an agent and how violated it made him feel. People were laughing at him. Like the response he got to that wasn't what people expected.

No. You would think. No, there were memes about how he's wasted his muscles type things. No one ever frames him as a man who was...

Right. And is still trying to work in the business where he was violated. Whereas if Terry Crews was a woman, perhaps there would be a different framing. I'm not saying there'd be a compassionate one because we treat victims terribly, irrespective of their gender identity. But I think for women, it'd be like we'd see that there was a break. So, Josh, I do think that's a big point that like, oh, it's a straight man saying it.

And because of the stigma that comes with a straight man saying he's been abused or assaulted. You know, it's interesting. There are tons of memes roasting Diddy, roasting Meek Mill. You know, and the joke is now, oh, you could have always told. And you can see all these people laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing.

And it's interesting. I was chatting to a friend and he said to me, he's like, man, it's so sad. Like, why is hip hop so homophobic? And like, why are black men so homophobic? And it's really fascinating how you cannot separate black male homophobia from how black men were treated in America. Like, if you look at the very inception of being black in this country, you know, in the U.S.,

You're shocked at how many times sodomy was used as a way to make black men feel like they were less than or to even embarrass them in front of their families, in front of their communities, just to show everybody like, hey, this is what happens if you think you are anything. You know, we live in a world where people often want something to be clean and easy, but I don't think you can tackle homophobia specifically in the black community. You have to ask yourself,

How much of it is also tied into how black men were treated in America and how they were oppressed and what was used to oppress them. Do you know what I mean? It's a homophobia used on them, which has then bred more homophobia in the community. And I wonder if that's something that can ever...

Go away. I don't know. Maybe Lil Nas X is the answer. Maybe he begins the wave and then... Can I pitch you this? Not only is he important, but I think that showing the spectrum is also important because someone who is both like...

private but also not closed off to the point of denial is Frank Ocean. Yeah. I think that someone like Frank Ocean made way more waves than people will ever give him credit for because he made it like a nothing thing. Yeah.

I, you know, we don't give those people enough credit. And I love what you both said. I think, you know, now when I see both of them, even in their music, I'll just be like, wow, what a seismic shift you have made. In many ways, this conversation we're having is one of the reasons I love being in places like Dubai and in Abu Dhabi and in the Middle East.

It is interesting to be in a place where you see people grappling with the reality of where they are, where they've been, and where they hope to be. And you see people saying, there are aspects of our culture that we want to maintain. There are aspects of our culture that make us who we are. These are things that we're proud of.

We also understand that as we move forward, we're going to have to be more tolerant to outsiders. And outsider could mean anything. People who look different, speak different, have different sexual proclivities or preferences, whatever it may be. But I'm always fascinated by that because I go, it's something that doesn't have a manual. It's something that nobody has figured out in a clean way. But to actually see it on the ground is a special and inspirational feeling.

That, yeah, I love getting. And so as somebody who's come to the Middle East for, I mean, now it's going to be maybe 15 years, I've seen the change. I've seen a place where people said it would never change. And I've seen the change. And I know for some people, it is not a fast enough change. But I do believe it has been a sustainable change up until this point.

And maybe in many ways, I hope the same thing for hip hop. I hope that hip hop finds its reasons to evolve and to become something more, to become something different, to change, to grow. And you know what, Christiana, maybe even Hollywood. Maybe we'll start to see more movie stars that are...

a little less jacked and steroided. Yeah. Call me. Josh, you work out. Don't let this guy like... Exactly. Josh is the one. Don't let those dulcet tones fool you. Protein shake king over here. He goes to the gym. Josh Johnson is one of those quietly strong individuals who will choke you out in a bar fight and you will be shocked when they show you his picture afterwards. You'll be like, that person did that to me?

Josh Johnson does not mess around. That is why he does not need to change his name. Well, not now. I mean, now everyone's going to know this is a very popular podcast. That's why Josh Johnson doesn't need to change his name. He goes from town to town. Josh Johnson, Birmingham, Alabama, Josh Johnson, New York City, Josh Johnson. You know why? Because he lifts weights. Christiana, Josh, this was too much fun. Good seeing you guys.

Great seeing you. It was wonderful seeing you. Take care. I will see you from the next country. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell 73. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Marina Henke is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Braun. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?