If I Ruled the World: Petty is Power
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So if you go just to a resort or you're like me and you're just in your Airbnb all day ordering Uber Eats, you're not really soaking up the local place. Okay, so we're agreeing. Yeah, because that's what I was wondering. Sometimes I feel like people travel, but they don't actually go anywhere. And I've seen this, you know, like you'll go to different parts of the world and you'll find yourself in a hotel somewhere.

And that hotel, for all intents and purposes, may as well be America or England. Do you know what I mean? It's like, this is your country with your language, with your TV channels, with your foods, with your... And then all people want to do is sort of like go on like a safari into the local environment. Yeah.

see the people don't really like be in the place and then come back and be like I had a great time in Costa Rica I had a wonderful time it reminded me a lot of Peru and it was also very similar to the Middle East it was great out there and it's like no you went to the same hotel everywhere in the world

You're listening to What Now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world. And today on the podcast, we're literally taking over the world with one of my favorite classic thought experiments, if I ruled the world. By now, you know the rules. If you were in charge and you could change one thing about the way the world works, what would you change? And then after you make your case...

We vote. Does your change go into effect or do we veto it? Well, joining me today, writer, journalist and professional hater, Christiana Mbakwe-Medina and writer, comedian and human chill pill, Josh Johnson. Let's get into it. Is everyone on? Yeah. Why are you laughing at me, Christiana? Because you're sitting in a closet. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

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Hi, I'm Stacey Abrams, voting rights advocate, author,

Admitted nerd and now host of the brand new Crooked podcast, Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Whether it's reforming the Electoral College, solving America's loneliness epidemic, or tackling the future of Hollywood, I'm breaking it all down to answer, how do we get here? And what can we do to get good done? Are you in? Join me for Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Episodes are available wherever you get your podcasts.

Well, I'm excited to have both of you because this week is one of our special episodes. If I ruled the world, I know Christiana is always thinking about ruling the world. You're one of those people who deep down inside wishes you could rule. Josh, you seem like you would be a... Yeah, you do. You do. Josh, you seem like you would be like an involuntary ruling the world person. Yeah, I think I would rule if everybody died. Like it would...

It wouldn't be intentional. It just be there's 12 of us left and, you know, everybody else doesn't want to do it. And I don't want to do it either, but I drew the short straw.

I think I'm closer to Christiana's side. I think I could, well, I don't think I could rule the world, but I could, yeah, maybe six months. Maybe six months I could do it for. And then I would, yeah, I would have like a 52% approval rating, which is pretty good in politics. Yeah, yeah. I thought yours would be a bit higher because you've got like that culty energy to you. Like, I'm glad you didn't start a cult. I feel like you could have a very successful cult.

If you had started one. Yeah, no, you would crush a cult. It's like the optimism. Do you know what I mean? And then it's like, he's always up to something, but you don't think he's. I'm glad you didn't start a cult. That's the thing. You're like, I'm going to be a comedian. I'm not going to start a cult. But yeah, I think your approval rating would be very high. My opinion.

I don't even know how to feel about this. I'm a culty type of... There's so many other words someone could use, you know? Oh, you are adventurous. You are friendly. Josh knows what I'm talking about. Charismatic.

You are convincing. Damn. No, no. Look, it's a good thing. This is the thing. You use it for good, though. So it's not as if it's ever an issue. You've only ever you've only ever used it to help people. And it's and it's actually there's a there's a special talent that everyone needs a friend that has this talent to have that can that can get you to to do something in your best interest that you weren't going to do.

That's life-saving. Yeah, I like that, actually. Imagine if I'm over here, out here being wild, right? Nobody can tell me anything. And then you pull me aside and you're like, Josh, Josh, what are you doing? That right there is like all I'll need.

okay all right well this is good to know okay well let's uh let's jump into it if i ruled the world remember simple rules it is one big idea the other two people on the podcast get to vote about whether or not they would say yes or no to this that determines whether it goes into effect it immediately kicks in worldwide like everywhere in the world at the same time and then people have their

their memories of the life before but it's always been this way at the same time so don't be like oh but then they have to change no it's just like it's just it just happens it just switches no no exemptions no nothing um so josh do you know what it's going to be don't tell me now i just want to know you know what it's going to be uh yes uh yes i do but i will probably have to clarify a lot

Oh, goodness. Okay, I didn't expect anything else. Christiana, do you know what yours is going to be? It's never a good sign when your rule comes with a bunch of caveats. Yes, yes. All right, Christiana, you rule the world. You control everything. Who run the world, girls? Who run this mother? You got this. You do it. So if I ruled the world, I would make travel mandatory. And you get a travel voucher from the government.

And you have to travel to a foreign country every single year. And you can't pick the same country twice. So if you went to France last year, you have to pick a different country. We'll give you more money if you pick like a different continent. For instance, if you went to Africa one year, the next time you're like, oh, I'm going to go to Australia, etc, etc. If you do not take me up on the offer, you have to commit an act of like national service. So you have to like pick up trash in the

park you have to clean the tube you have to like read books like there there is a penalty for not traveling but if I ruled the world I would make travel mandatory now do you want to hear why yes yes okay this is my pitch right

So if you travel, it's great because it like opens up your horizons, right? And you appreciate things about where you've come from. So right now I'm like, wow, Americans are very attractive people. That's not to say people in England are not attractive, but people in America, I'm like, oh my God, I live somewhere where people are like very hot all the time. And mind you, all I do in America is complain. I'm like, these people, they're

They're annoying Americans. And now I'm like, oh, they're very attractive. And I'm like, oh, they're personable and friendly. Like coming home to England has made me appreciate stuff about America. But it's also made me be like, oh, America needs better public transportation. So like kind of widens your horizons and it makes you appreciate what you have back home. And if you're like a bigot who travels, it means like your racism becomes very specific.

And I think specific racism is like the best type of racism. So for instance, if somebody writes in my comments, you Igbo bitch, you people love money so much. I'm like, that's so impressive. Like you haven't called me Zimbabwean. You haven't called me Jamaican. You've identified my tribe and a trope to do with my tribe. So it means nothing.

You even get to know the people you hate better on an intimate level. And I think that's actually a very helpful thing. So I say mandatory travel. And if you don't travel, you have to do some sort of national service. Hmm.

Okay, so just so we're on the same page, I'm just making sure I clarify everything here. So you're saying mandatory travel for everyone, everywhere in the world. They have to go to a foreign country once a year. If they don't do it, they have to pick up trash and basically community service. Yeah, and we pay. The government pays. Okay, and one of the reasons you want people to do this is so that they realize that there are hotter people in other countries. And also so that they can appreciate...

some of the things they may take for granted where they're from and also some of the things that might be better elsewhere. And then last but not least, it'll help people become better racists because their racism will be more specific as opposed to just like broad because they haven't been. I love an informed bigot. They're the most interesting to debate with. But this is what I want to say about the American side. I was saying to my husband, I was like, you know,

A lot of Americans say America is the greatest country in the world. And I think the people are amazing and their government should treat them better. And part of why the government gets away with it is because...

they haven't gone to like a country that has like high speed rail. Like you live, when I lived in Texas, it was just impossible to get around by rail. And I was like, shouldn't there be a fast train from San Antonio to Austin to Houston to Dallas. And you could, if it was China, it could do it in like 30 minutes. And I'm like, why aren't people revolting? This country is so wealthy. It should have like, what is very basic infrastructure. But I think if enough Americans went elsewhere and was like, hold on, look,

there, they would come back and be like, you guys have to get your stuff together. And I think sometimes countries get complacent because enough of their citizens don't see what other people have. So sometimes it's good to go, you know, when you go to someone's house, you're like, oh, I didn't know my house is not that great. I could get a better house. Yeah, I'm not mad. You know what? I'm not mad at this. Okay, I will say this. So two thoughts that I have. One,

your first instinct is that everyone should essentially colonize the world. This sounds very... I mean, this sounds like a very light pitch for colonization. Mandatory. You have to go to other countries and see what good things they have and come back and tell us all about it. And then we definitely won't come and take it when we realize they have it better than us. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that's probably not what you're pitching. Although I do worry that that's what it leads to because...

Look, my first instinct is I like it. But then the second instinct I have is I sometimes feel like half of the problems we have in the world are because people have traveled. What if we just like shut everything down and no one could go anywhere? Then you wouldn't be able to go and take something from somewhere else and you just wouldn't know. And then you just be like, I'm in my country. I don't know. I feel like you're planting the seeds for colonization. And at the same time, inspiring people. Wait, can I just give my counter quickly, Trevor? I actually think...

If more people from other countries came to the West, they'd be like, I'm not moving here. Like you see how close, like it would decrease immigration. All you need is a few weeks in England with the rain and the people and the bad food. You're like, I'm going back to Nigeria. I can figure it out.

you know, give enough Guatemalans some time in America. And they're like, oh, these people, all they do is work. I'm going home. I actually don't think it will cause colonization. I think it would lower immigration, which I think a lot of people want. I don't. I believe in open borders. Yes, yes. Let's be clear. Um...

But I'm just saying, I don't think it'd actually do a colonization. I think people would come to the West and be like, oh, it's not what it's cracked up to be. And people would go to like different parts of the world, like people from the West and be like, oh, this is beautiful, but...

you know, I couldn't live here, that he is too oppressive. I don't know, Josh, Josh, what do you make of this? So I actually agree very much with Christian. Basically a lot of what Christian said was what I was about to say, which is if everyone is traveling and visiting, is it really going to be colonization? Just because everyone's going to find their fit in the world in a way that I think would surprise us. Because even though it seems like

any type of person going into another culture would just, oh, I'll just stay here and I'll just soak up all the good parts, whatever. There are gonna be things like Christiana is saying that sure, all these people come from this area to this area, but then maybe half of them are like, I can't handle this other thing. So for instance, a lot of people have a sort of obsession or interest in American culture and particularly in parts of American culture, they're a little bit dangerous.

But it really takes a lot of people in the world one time of being shot at to be like, I think I'm good. I'll just watch it on TV. Okay, wait, let me get a few more clarifying points here. How long do the people have to go for? Three weeks. Three weeks they have to go. Okay, now, how do you ensure that everybody's not just going to one country?

Because I mean, like, look at the world now, right? So Japan complaining about too much tourism. Spain, Barcelona complaining about too much tourism. Just tons of places around the world. Italy, Italy is like falling apart. Too many tourists, too many people coming to see the Colosseum in Rome and everything. I thought about that. It's like the school system. You just rank what you'd like. You rank your top 20 and then you get what you're giving because, guys, it's a free trip. Yeah.

And I'm a benevolent dictator. So you may get somewhere you like, you may get somewhere you dislike. But if you turn it down, the penalty, imagine you said, okay, I'm going to go. And then you put in your form and then you turn it down. Then there's a bigger penalty in terms of the national service.

that you have to do. Like, you'd have to do an extra week of national service. Do people get to go back to a country they liked? No, you can if you want to spend your own money. Wow. This is the thing. Oh, okay, okay, okay. This is not part of the government program. If you want to spend your own money and go to the south of France...

Every summer you can do that. But my hope is, like, this is me borrowing your optimism, Trevor, that people kind of like do the Anthony Bourdain version of the experience. R.I.P. A good white man, actually, who was really good at going to places without colonizing them and being level with the locals and being very respectful. He was, yeah. He was indeed. Yeah.

you kind of welcomed Anthony Bourdain coming to wherever it was. And I feel that like, if people took the Anthony Bourdain approach, sometimes you go to, he'd go to countries and he'd be like, oh, the people are beautiful, but they deserve better. Like you, like you can come away with very nuanced perspective that may, maybe make you more appreciative of where you're from or make you hate it more. And so I'm hoping that people do the Anthony Bourdain type of travel, not the Christopher Columbus type of travel. That's,

What happens if people always get robbed in the same country? And I'm just saying this. I'm not even going to pick out a specific country in the world. Let's just say like every time you send someone to that country, they get robbed. And this country just goes like, don't worry, guys. They can't do anything about it because they have to keep sending people to our country.

Because like, if I had like a really poor country and I knew that somebody had to send tourists to us, because right now people go, don't go there. It's dangerous. But now I'm like, no, no, no, guys, everyone has to come here because Christiana has made it that the whole world has to travel. So that means we're going to get a good amount of people coming every year. We're just going to rub the shit out of them. And then next year we wait for the next batch. What do we do then? This is my counter. I have a friend named Jessica, who's the black woman who is...

visited every single country in the world. She's amazing. She has like a blog. What do you mean every single country? She's the first black woman to visit every single country in the world.

North Korea? Yeah, she went to North Korea. She went to North Korea. She visited every single country in the world. And it's funny because sometimes she'll do her thing about like on her Instagram, she'll be like the worst airports, the best airports and countries that she really enjoyed. It's always the places that people think are super dangerous. And this is a black woman that's had a very difficult

different experience than what, like, you're told. You know, like, there's some people that, like, don't go to that country. The men grope. And then you go there and the men are super respectful. You know, almost, like, distant. They're like, may I grope? Yeah, may I grope? And you're like, I do not give you consent to grope. And they grope you everywhere. Anyway, but it was, like, a polite groping. But, like, so she...

Sure, there's going to be robberies. It's not going to be perfect, but I do think it's often the most impoverished nations where the people are most generous and they're like, hey, come into my little house. I only have water, but you can have some. So my feeling is that people will learn a lot about the human spirit and you're probably going to get robbed in London, if we're honest. Yes.

Okay, I'm ready to vote, but Josh, do you have any questions, any clarifications, any thoughts on this? I think it's a great idea, but I do wonder if there are... If you worry at all as you've come up with this and you've thought it out very well, but...

Let's say somebody only has a certain amount of years, right? Are you going to make any priorities and do you worry that the priority countries that you try to make for people will be too biased? So for instance, let's say there's a place where it's like people really only live in to 38.

So this is when you got to be choosy. You know, we're not getting the 70s and the 80s that we are in some other countries. So where we send those people who are on average living to like 38 or 40, do we have to prioritize some places or is it still random? It's still random because that's the nature of life.

Quotes like that, that's where I go. You have a prime dictator in you and I'm proud of you. Thank you, Trevor. But Josh, I thought you were going to ask the inverse. I thought you were going to say like, for the old people, should they still be going on these missions to different countries? Oh, yeah. No, send them. Yeah. Old people love traveling. Yeah, they love traveling. Old people love traveling. They love it. Okay. Ready to vote. Josh, your vote. I am very in favor.

All right. On my side, I cannot lie, Christiana. This is a brilliant, brilliant idea. If I ruled the world, I vote as well. Two votes. It has passed. Everyone will be traveling once a year to somewhere in the world. So, yeah, pack your bags. Somalia, here we come. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this.

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All right, Josh Johnson, you rule the world. Seven billion people, they all look up to you. Lord Josh, Lord Josh Johnson, pray do tell, Lord, what do we do in your kingdom? Okay, this is going to be proof that I should not lead. But I think that petty should become power.

I think that if you have an argument or if you have a dispute and you're willing to be the pettiest, that you should have the backing of your local government, of the people. I think that petty should become power. Because this thing, this thing. No, no, no, no. Hear me out. Hear me out. Because last time we did this, you were like, ooh, you try to be all altruistic and stuff. So I tried to go the opposite way. So now. Josh. Now petty will rule. Okay? Yeah.

So let me get this straight, Josh. Because you felt slighted by my comment clearly last time, which first of all, let me say, I apologize, Josh. I didn't know that I hurt you. I didn't intend to hurt you. And I apologize. But I can see that that hurt has now turned you into somebody who is a little aggrieved. And so now you're saying you are promoting pettiness in part because you are being petty

And trying to spoil the world? Is that what you're saying? No, I'm not trying to spoil the world. This is just why I don't know if I have the qualities of a leader. What you said really got to me. So it took me in another direction. Okay, okay.

So wait, explain the logic behind this. So what is happening? The petty, petty is the power. What does this even mean? Okay. So if you have a dispute with somebody, let's say y'all have problems, right? Yes. Ooh, you, you, you are in a full Kendrick and Drake situation. If you're willing to do your research, if you're willing, if you're willing to go further, if you're willing to, to learn your enemy, right? Then, then,

We, as a local government, will back you in an entire pop-out concert whenever you want to have it. It won't even need to be Juneteenth. You could just put the concert together with government funds and you can wop, wop, wop, wop, wop.

Okay, so now let's take this away from rappers. There are two neighbors and they're having a dispute and they're fighting about like a tree that's dropping leaves into the other's yard. And then the one neighbor decides, okay, since you won't cut down your tree at night, I'm going to come in there and, I don't know, put termites into the trunk or something.

What is your government doing? Okay, so we assess, right? We assess the disputes. And then between the disputes, whoever's willing to be the most petty, because those termites, let's say you're willing to put the termites in the other person's tree to tear that tree down slowly over time, right? But then...

But then let's say because termites don't just know where to eat, the termites get into your house and they start eating up your house and everything. We as the government will be like, you are willing to go further. We are going to reinstate you with a new house. We're going to build a house for you because you are willing to take it further than anybody else is willing to take it. Josh, I feel like your world will be gone in like two years. Listen, I'm with you. I'm like...

When they go low, we go lower. We go to the earth core. Yeah. Right? So. Oh, when they go low, we dig. We dig, we get a shovel. Okay. We're getting dirty, down and dirty. So, so Josh, help me understand this. What is the purpose of this ruling? Not that you have to have one. I just want to know, like, you know, when we, when we approach you, dear leader, and we ask if we may, what is, what is the purpose of, of this idea? Like,

Why is pettiness rewarded over everything in your world? I hate to answer a question with a question, but what is the purpose of The Sims? I mean, these aren't real people. This isn't a real world. So I'm just going ahead and I'm watching it burn because in real life, I do my best to not be petty and to always keep my head high and take the high road and stuff. So there's a little bit of cosplaying on my part, you know.

I will even say this for the criminal justice system in my world, we would be far more creative because I don't know if time necessarily translates to crime. You know, it's like what?

Especially if you did a nonviolent crime and they're like, but according to a bunch of statutes that we came up with a long time ago that didn't have this thing in mind, you have to do 15 years now because it's the third strike on this nonviolent whatever. Right. OK, OK, OK. You got me. You got me.

I think that a judge, a judge would be someone that we elect out of their ability, out of their acumen for petty, right? And then that judge would then sentence someone in the pettiest way possible, especially for a nonviolent crime, right? You know what? I was totally out. And now you've slowly started roping me back in. Yeah, the judge.

Oh, it's the dream. Imagine a world where someone is speeding, right? Someone is speeding very fast. Now, they haven't hurt anybody and they've been pulled over, but they were going a full 60 above the speed limit, right? Yes. Now, in a lot of places, depending on your situation, depending on your overall record, that could be life ruining, right? My judge in this world would be like, hey, hey, no problems, no problems, right?

But you will have to drive at 180 for the next week. But where? Not on the streets, Josh. Not on the street, but just when you're on the highway, your car is going to have a governor. Usually the governor is going to stop the car from getting too high. Your governor is going to stop the car from being too low. Okay, Josh, this

This is the most psychotic world. It is psychotic, but can I tell you something? It kind of feels like, imagine you lived in a world and everyone was the Joker. You would act right. I think in a way it's just like, when there is no...

restraint on people and you know people can get as petty as they can and like the judges the joker if you ever end up in the hands of the criminal justice system you may be like actually I'm just going to behave myself wow and be sensible thank you because that is a very that is a terrifying punishment for me because I really can't drive even though I do so I'd probably die within like the first day of having to maintain that speed minimum so

I think it's perverse enough that it would make humans behave because you're like, I don't know who I'm living next door to. I don't think so at all. No? You don't think so? I think you are just creating chaos and murder and I... Like...

I'm worried now, Josh, about you. No, no, don't worry about me. I'll actually, I'll actually hopefully strengthen my point with a quote from my good friend, Trevor Noah. All right. You know, even though, even though we were joking and it was jokes and it was very funny, I, part of what made me come up with this world was a thing that you said years ago, where you were talking about how polite everyone is when you know everyone has a

gun. And in fact, we should all have to walk around with our guns in hand when we have a gun and everyone will just sort of behave themselves. And that's kind of what I was thinking when I was like, yeah, if everybody knew that they would get government backing, if they got petty enough, I think that they would be like, I don't know how creative that person is. So let me state for the record that you have taken me wildly out of context. That is the first thing.

So I'll state that for the record. So here's the thing that gets me. When we reward pettiness, the issue I have is we then live in a world where it's a race to the bottom, right? Like you look at families.

You look at these boys who've been raised by dads who go, who punched you? You go back there and you punch them even harder. And you let them know that you don't punch someone from this family. And then that kid goes and punches them. And then the older kid comes back and punches and punches. And it's just like, what are we doing? In fact, I would argue that's why we are where we are now with Russia and the rest of the world. It's just been a race of pettiness to the bottom.

Like the United States comes in after World War II with Russia. They do a terrible job of divvying up the world, but then it just becomes pure pettiness, right? So America goes, oh, we want to build nuclear weapons and have more of them and we want a little more land. And then Russia goes, we want to feel bigger than you and you didn't respect us. We should do this to make you respect us. And then they go, we're going to put ships here and we're going to put missiles here and we're going to go to Cuba. And next thing there's a missile crisis. If you think about it,

Half of the issues we have in the world are because leaders, like people right at the top, aren't able to understand how pettiness and a race of pettiness doesn't get you anywhere. Half of the time it's because they don't feel respected. Like Vladimir Putin. I'm telling you now, I'm telling you now, telling you now, I don't need any qualifications to say this. A part of the reason Vladimir Putin cannot negotiate with Zelensky is because Zelensky was a comedian on TV.

Like, you're Vladimir Putin, the ruler of what you consider as Vladimir Putin, one of the greatest countries and empires of all time. And then someone's like, hey, you should go and negotiate with Mr. Bean. There's a level of pettiness in Putin not being able to back down because he doesn't want to seem like he's weak. You know, the world literally is in many ways where it is today because of pettiness.

Even judges, by the way, even judges think about how many people spend more time in jail because of judges being petty. Cause the judge doesn't feel like the defendant respected them enough. Yo, most of gang crime is petty. You know what I mean? He walked past wearing those colors and he went past doing that. And then it's like pettiness. We're dead, Josh. We're dead in two years. I think what Trevor is speaking to is that maybe when you're petty, you're acting out of your ego.

And ego is like a big issue. Yeah.

I'm fully with you. I'm fully with both of you. But this is not the real world. This is my world. And in the real world, a judge can be petty and send someone to prison for longer because they don't feel respected. But in my world, that same person that maybe felt like they didn't get a good enough sentence, that they were like, oh, that's a little unfair. Judge isn't safe just because they're a judge. These systems that are in place...

in the real world are not in place in my world. So now, now, now all this person has to do is do a little reading, learn what a board of ethics is, send that judge to the board of ethics, but I already did my time. So the judge has nothing on me anymore. So now I just go after the judge for, for quite a while until, until everything is settled in my stomach, you know? And then, and the government goes behind. Yeah, Josh, I feel like we're not here for a good time. We're here for a short time.

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like this is literally the definition of in an eye for an eye land. What is it? In the land where it's an eye for an eye, everyone is blind. The whole world is blind. But maybe we didn't deserve to see. All right.

Damn. Well, if you ever had the question, what happens when you push Josh Johnson too far? I think we got it. I'm ready to vote. Christiana, I'm assuming you're ready to vote as well. Okay. I'm going to vote first, Josh. And this may come as a surprise to you. My answer is no, Josh. I will not vote for your petty backed regime. I'm sorry, Josh. Yeah.

In terms of whether petty should be power, Josh, I'm very sorry. I have to vote no. You almost had me with the judge thing. But then our cult leader over here swayed me when he talked about the race to the bottom. I do worry. I do worry. It's all good. I will remember this. I know you will. I'm sorry.

I know you will. I know you will. Just don't get me. Just don't be toupee to me when you get me back. Oh, wow. All right. Well, that's two down, one more to go. I will let you know what mine is. And it may surprise you. We'll be right back after this. This episode is brought to you by Borgata Hotel, Casino and Spa in Atlantic City.

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All right. If I ruled the world, my favorite episode of the podcast based on nothing, no facts, no research, no nada. It's just how we would rule the world if we were given the chance. So Christiana right now has two votes for what I consider one of the best initiatives ever. Like, I feel like we should find a way to get this up.

to like the real levels of power. It'll be tough, but we can do it. And then Josh Johnson came in with something that I think, you know, even the Joker would be like, hmm, it's a little intense. It's a little extreme. Yeah. He'd just be like, damn, Josh, why so crazy? So here's something I've been thinking about. And it's not very big, but I think it would make a big difference.

If I ruled the world, it's a weird compoundy thing, but it's like if I ruled the world, I would say that customer service no longer has to involve friendliness. I'll explain to you where this has come to me from. So I think we are living in a world where many people have to, you know, they work in service jobs.

or they work in jobs where they have to interact with other human beings. And in that job, they have to be competent and they have to be capable. So, you know, you walk into a clothing store, they have to know where the clothes are, what the sizes are. They have to know whether the fabric will shrink when you wash it. They have to know what the fit is. They have to know.

You phone a call center and something's going wrong with your equipment at home. They have to know your equipment. They have to know how to instruct you on disconnecting, connecting, et cetera, et cetera. On an airplane, the person's bringing you food and they have to know when you buckle your seat or where your seat is or what the emergency... People have to know. But we also started saying that people also have to be friendly and excessively friendly when doing these jobs.

I think this is causing a fatigue in the world that is making people like shells of themselves because they have to spend the whole day being like, hi, hello, hello, hi, how are you? Hello, hi. And I genuinely think this is probably like destroying relationships and friendships and marriages. Because I think people are going home emotionally exhausted because they're spending all of their quote unquote happiness on strangers.

And then when they come home, they're emotionally exhausted. And I think this is actually destroying the social fabric of the world. All these people who rate stuff on like Google, I hate it when people will rate a restaurant and they'll be like one star. The waitress was so mean. Food was great though. Then I'm like, yeah, then shut up and eat the food.

Like, what world do you live in? Like, I don't know about you, but I used to eat food at my friends' houses. And yo, sometimes people's grandmothers weren't nice, but all that mattered was the food. You didn't get a hug with every bowl of food, but the food is what mattered. And I think this attitude that people have of like, everyone wants to be treated like a mini king. Everybody wants to be like mini royalty. I think it's trash.

And I think it should be gone. No more. No more friendliness with anything. In fact, the meaner people are in a weird way. Not like assholes, but just like be like just stoic. Just like, hey, can I get some food? Yeah, what do you want? There's a table. Sit down there. I'll come and help you when you're ready. And that would be it. And you're not allowed to fire people because they're like unfriendly. Because sometimes you're just having a shitty day. Okay. Okay. So real quick. And you know what?

I think that this is really great. I think I've worked a lot of customer service jobs in life. And I... Wait, you have? Yeah, man. I worked at a restaurant for years. And then I've worked at grocery stores. And I've also worked at... Well, the restaurant, I think... But I thought you got fired after like a week. No, no. I was there for like six years. Six years? Yeah, yeah.

Josh, you've lived so many lives. Thank you, Josh Johnson. You've lived so many lives. Yeah. You really have. Okay. And then I've worked at a few grocery stores. You met me at the tail end. Okay. What were you doing at the grocery store? I do a little bit of everything. So I was a cashier, but I was also sometimes the person who would walk around to find people looking lost. So then if you were looking at a label too long, I'd pop up and be like, can I help you?

I love that person. The only thing that was rough that I keep with me to this day is sometimes people would need help reaching and then I couldn't reach. So I had to go find somebody. And that was rough. That was like, that was the days where I'd be like, I hate this job. But then any other time I really enjoyed it. So I like what you're saying, Trevor. And I vibe with every part of it, I guess, except...

One thing, because I am not necessarily the most stoic person. I feel pretty like by nature affable and friendly. So it would almost be work for me to be stoic.

when it comes to the service. So what happens? I'm not saying you have to be. I'm just saying like you can't... It's not part of the job at all. Oh, okay. It is not part of the job. Your attitude is not part of the job. Got you. And I mean this in everything, but I even mean this in the office. Like let's say...

Let's say your manager says to you, hey, Christiana, please could you get these reports ready by Friday 4 p.m. And then you could be like, Friday? Are you shitting me? This is so much work. God damn it. And then you could like storm out the office. I go, you're allowed to do that. Trevor, you're describing France. Yeah. Maybe that's why I love it so much there.

So what I do like about it is that I do feel like this is a socialist of me, that customer service representatives are not as paid as well as they should be. And they absorb all the abuse the C-suite and the senior executives should get. Right. So somebody calls, you've been on a hold for like 40 minutes and then you speak to this person, sometimes in your country, sometimes in a foreign country.

and they are doing their best and you're shouting at them because the company policy is you can't get a refund or your wifi is not coming back.

and they have to absorb all the abuse and they can't shout back because at the beginning of the call, they say, this call may be recorded. So they have to be on their best behavior, whereas you can abuse them as much as possible. But we have this culture of friendliness and the customer is always right. And I do think in this capitalist hellscape, it's abuse. It's just a way for the consumer to abuse the workers. So the socialist in me agrees that the workers should be able to speak up and say,

you're wrong. Piss off, right? You're also going to get rid of tipping, right? So recently I went to Brixton Village with my husband and we went to a restaurant and I was like, what's taking them so long? Like they hadn't even brought the menus and then they brought the menus and then it was like another 15 minutes before we could order. It was just,

terrible service and my husband said to me you've been in America too long this is typical service in England right like so I am now in a system where there is no tipping you know people get paid what they earn at the end of their shift because they get paid hourly there's universal health care basically there's no incentive to be polite to be friendly to be like do go above and beyond and what you often get is just like mid-service

That is my only thing. And the friendliness, I think the friendliness does play into it because like London is kind of a cynical and miserable city. And it's because like we don't even have to pretend to be happy. We just complain as the default. And it's kind of bad when the people serving you are complaining as well.

I don't think that people being unfriendly means bad service. I think oftentimes there's a correlation between the two. So sometimes you'll be in a place where the people are being like really mean or they're just being like dismissive or whatever, and they serve you badly. But I think that's now a system that has broken down. So it's fair that people draw the correlation. They go, those people are assholes and the service is bad. And then we just think it's all one thing, right? However, if you break it up and you go like somebody's running a business,

how people are in that business is just about like their efficiency and their ability to do something. But now what we've done is we've taken this away on every level. And I genuinely mean this in like the biggest sense, even in like politics, right? We rate our politicians by how friendly they are. Ah, look at how friendly they were at the debate. Look at how charismatic they were during a speech. I don't give a shit about your charisma. What is your level of competence? You know why I liked Angela Merkel from Germany?

That woman was not there to entertain you. She was not there to make you feel better about yourself. She was not there to do some little dance to make you feel like you had picked the right person. She was there to be like, hey, I've crunched the numbers and this is what we need to do in Germany and this is the money that we are giving to Greece and this is what the Euroblock needs to do and thank you very much for coming. Have a nice day or don't, whatever. See you next time. And

And I like that. I go like, I think we're creating a world where it's like the performance is becoming more important than the aptitude. And in every field, that's making it worse. I want a politician who doesn't have to kiss babies. It's creepy. It's weird. You don't have to smile. You don't have to shake my hand. Just make sure that the schools are good.

make sure that the roads are clean and make sure that people have access to healthcare. And then I'm happy. You see, now it's like, all right, we're good. Now I'm smiling. By the way, before I forget this, so this is something that I find fascinating. You know that phrase, the customer is always right? There's another version of the quote, which is the customer is always right in matters of taste, which means they're not right. It was like, no, no, no. Give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Assume that they are right.

until it is evident that you are dealing with an idiot who does not know what they are talking about. Then the customer is not right, and you can tell them that you do not sell dildos because this here is a cooking store. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, this is something that I wish would have been in place when I worked...

at the restaurant because every once in a while I would take someone's order and I would bring them their order and then they would say, this isn't what I ordered, but I was listening and I did write down what they were saying 'cause I was never one of those people trying to impress people with memorizing.

No, no, no, no, no. Never. Never that. If you were a memory person, I was going to... I was writing it down and I was writing it down not in shorthand because I didn't trust my shorthand. I didn't trust the kitchen to read my shorthand. So I wrote down the full menu item with the ingredients when I was like taking someone's order, which was annoying for them because then they had to repeat themselves two or three times. But...

I wrote it down plainly and then sent it to the kitchen, looked at it when I brought it out to them, right? And they'd be like, this is not what I ordered. And then I have to figure out how not to embarrass this man in front of his family because it's very much what he ordered. There's actually, and it would always happen with something that was like unambiguous, right?

So it would never be like, oh, I ordered nachos, but I said no sour cream and there's sour cream on these nachos. It would always be like a completely different dish and we only have one of those dishes. Like there's only one type of fried ice cream that we have. Fried ice cream. And I brought you fried ice cream and then you're like, this isn't what I ordered. And I'm like, yeah, no, it's a fried ice cream. He's like, yeah, but I said fried ice cream. And I'm like, I don't know where to go from here. You see? But this is what I mean. This is what I mean. And I think like-

Look, am I right? I don't know. But that doesn't matter when I rule the world. The point is, I think it is not fair to expect people to like give their souls, give their souls on behalf of these corporations and then go home drained. Think about how your parents would come home from certain jobs and they're just like, I don't have the energy or the time for this.

I don't, I just, I've just been like smiling at people all day. My cheeks are sore. I'm sick of speaking to people. You get what I'm saying? - Yes, yes. - But you know who always had time? My grandmother. My grandmother worked in a factory. She didn't have to talk to anybody. She didn't have to make small talk. When my grandmother came home, she had all the energy to talk. She was tired in her hands.

and in her body, but her mind was fresh 'cause she didn't have to have any small talk, no nothing. And that woman's love poured into me as opposed to her dripping it into ungrateful customers

and random people that have been like propped in front of her because of a corporation. And that woman was able to love me with all of her heart because it wasn't wasted on stupid customer service. She made the garments, she sent the garments out. And I think because of that, I'm the man I am today. That is a very emotionally manipulative argument, I will say. My grandmother loved me better because she didn't have to be friendly. I'm like, how can I argue with that? Yeah.

I mean, this is the thing. I mean, you can. Like, when I moved to America, I remember having like a baseline level of suspicion about the general friendliness, not just the friendliness. You know, you go into a store in America, they're like, hey, how are you doing? How are you? I love your shoes. I love it. You know, you're just like, yes, yes, yes. It was very hurtful impression. It'd be very uncomfortable for me because I'm like, look, I just want to buy my ting and leave. Like, I don't I don't want anything more than that.

And now being used to that, especially now living in California where even I've saw someone make a TikTok that like the white people in California like black people and it's very weird for them because they're used to the South. They're like, even the white people are friendly. They're like,

oh, I love you here. Where do you get your braids done? You're like, wait, you know too much. Like when you come from somewhere like California here where it's like feels like not the other extreme, but Londoners are friendly if they know you and they're distant if they don't know you. We're just very much like, allow me, leave me alone. Yes. I'm like, I think there is a balance in between, especially in cities where it's like atomized and lonely. I know for some people that interaction in a store is,

or sometimes with a customer service rep with the barista at the coffee shop, that's the only real human interaction some people get, let's be real. Do you know what I mean? And I'm like, if we come from a place where like, good faith, both sides have to be friendly. Because I think Trevor, your objection is that like, we put all the burden on the customer service rep and then the other party can treat you anyway. But I'm like, if we have this expectation of just like-

Politeness. It doesn't have to be friendly. Just decent politeness. And some people are going to be more gregarious than others. I can rock with that because I'm like, why are we so mean to each other? Why are we all so silent? Or why when you go into a shop, you have to ask for help. And the people with social anxiety like Josh are like, okay, I'm not going to ask for help. I'm just going to leave and order it online. You know what I mean? Sorry, Josh. But you know what I mean? So it's just like...

Trevor, I get what you're saying, but I feel that with a modification, I could vote for it. That's my point. Okay, let me throw one last thing in here. One last thing. I love that you said politeness. Part of what I am pitching here is a great equalization of how we perceive people's ability to do something because we are no longer making it about how they act in relation to the culture that we were raised in.

And that's part of the problem that I have with the system that we have is you go to a store or you let's say restaurants, most restaurants that are ranked badly that are ethnic. And what I mean by ethnic is they are not the restaurant of like the hegemony of the place they're in. So it's a Jamaican restaurant in London or it's a, you know, whatever Indian restaurant in New York or whatever.

Sometimes those restaurants are getting worse reviews because the people who go to those restaurants expect those people to act like their culture acts. And then they go, you people are impolite. And then it's like, no, they're just a different culture. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

They don't they're not going to ask you your life story because that in their culture, that might be rude. It might be invasive. You're coming here to eat. And that's that. And then they go, I don't like the service. I think those people really rude. It's like, no, they were a different culture. And so for me, if you couldn't I don't like how sometimes people in the majority can like bully somebody else in a way to be their culture, to be deemed capable in the job.

When the person is able to do the job, it's like, yeah, you know what? Like, I remember when I went to Russia, for instance, when I was in Russia and I was in Ukraine, this was obviously way back.

People were competent. You go to a restaurant, they bring you your food. You ask for something, it is done. There were no smiles. I don't remember a single, a single, when I tell you a single server in a restaurant, no one smiled. I was smiling at them. And there were moments when they would look at me like I was crazy. And then I was like, actually, I do seem crazy.

Why am I just smiling? Hi, could I please get and they were just like, yeah, you want to eat and then it's like menu English, then they switch out the menu, then they put it there. And it's like, which one do you want? And you'd be like, and then you out still try like, I'll be like, Oh, well, what's your favorite? Then they're like, I don't have favorite. I work here. What do you want?

And I was like, and at first I went, man, these people are mean. But then I went, no, I'm putting a burden on them to be like micro friends of mine. And now I'm judging them, but in their culture, they're doing the job, they're getting the thing done. And so I think it's unfair that some people, whether it's taxi drivers, waiters, airport stop, you name it, are being judged because they don't match up with the culture of the people who are complaining. So that's another reason I say, we must just take it away. Is the thing done?

Is the thing done? Let me tell you the best experience I had recently, guys. This might have been like the genesis for this feeling, even though I've had it for a long, but like voicing it. I was, I needed something done. What was it? What was the person doing? Oh, they were coming in to repair like an air conditioning unit, right? And the guy arrived, you know, they give you the window, the person will be there from this time to, the person got there early. So I was like, I'm not there to let them in. And so then,

the guy got on the phone with me and then he's like, "Hey man, I'm here a little bit early, I'm here to fix the air conditioning." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm not there, what do we do?" Then he's like, "Well, you want it fixed? I can just go in and fix it." And I was like, "All right, cool." And he's like, "Yeah, don't worry, don't worry, let me go in." And then he goes in and then he calls me from inside and he's like, "Hey man, I'm supposed to talk to you while I do, but can I just fix it?" And I was like, "Yeah, fix it." And then he's like, "Okay, I'll fix it." And then he fixed it and then when he was done, he's like, "Okay, it's fixed. Bye, call me if you need something."

Let me tell you something, that air conditioner blows. It blows...

Like there is only one reason for its existence and that is to keep me cool. That man did his job. He was one of the fastest, most efficient people I've ever met. I don't know his family story. He didn't make me feel good, but he did the job. And I was like, if this was the world, I think everyone would be happier because they wouldn't be fake smiling. Josh wouldn't be fighting with you about fried ice cream. And then Christiana, people wouldn't be judging you because you're from a different culture. But Trevor, this is my thing as a Nigerian.

And we are like at a baseline, just like rude people. And it's something I'm working on. I probably need to go to therapy for it because I realized that like, I'm a rude bitch, right? And a big part of the issue is I'm Nigerian. And it's a culture where like, everyone is kind of rude. Even our polite people are rude. They'll be like, ah, shut up. Like you just, you know, it's just, we got the vim of like,

We're outspoken and to everyone else it's rude. And we are rude. And so it's just like, if you let all the Nigerians in the world know that there are no more constraints, guys, the world is going to burn.

The world, your Nigerian customer service rep is going to cuss you out and say you're an idiot. Learn how to use your modem. Go and use Google. Good night. And drop the phone. It's like, guys, come on. Is that not the world we want to live in? A world where somebody is not just giving you a fish, but they're teaching you how to. Imagine how great it would be if your parents or somebody in your life calls that tech support. And that person then is like, is it on? Is it actually on right now?

Excuse me, how can you call me if this thing is not... Are you stupid or something? Next time you are going to say something is not working, first make sure that it is actually on. Are you stupid or something? What is wrong with you? Don't call for... You know what? This call is not being recorded because you are so stupid. There should not be a recording of what you have said here. There's no more recording. I think the world would be a better place. I think it would be a more fun place. I do have a quick question before I vote, right?

Have you considered the – Christian, I already touched on this, but have you considered the industries that this could potentially ruin because they are based on the home feeling and the friendliness in their inception? So, for instance, like –

I think a tour guide needs to have a certain amount of enthusiasm and energy for what they're talking about. Because yes, the job is to take me around and tell me the facts. But if they're just like, a guy died there, a guy died there, a guy died there. But you see that's different. Again, you're mixing up niceness and competence.

So I'm saying they can be enthusiastic, they can love what they do, but they don't have to ask you questions about where you're from and engage with you. I'm agreeing with you, but I'm not saying they have to be boring, because I agree, part of being a tour guide is that you are generally engaging and you give information that people want to absorb. So I do agree with you on that. I'm just saying there are other elements of it where the person doesn't have time. Trevor, I have a question too. I do agree with you, yes. Are you trying to...

Is it the friendliness or is it the small talk that you don't like? No, no, no, no, no. It's all types of friendliness. Like, I think people should be allowed to be like, I'm having a bad day. Let's just walk around. So that building there, that's where Queen Elizabeth used to live. Yeah, that's it. You don't even know. What do you say to that, Josh?

That's that's that's wild. OK, because I really do vibe with literally 98 percent of what you're saying. I just do think that there are some places like hospitality in earnest. Right. Like when they're like, why should you come to our hotel over the other hotel?

Especially if they're the same price. Because there's no bed bugs. The room is clean. There's great room service. There's a good view. Things are done in a timely manner. And that's that. Even if it's the same price as another hotel? Josh, you and I actually, Josh, you and I have been there. We've been to hotels where they're smiling and they cannot find our reservation. And we stand at the desk for like an hour. And they're smiling the whole time.

And they're smiling and they're like, you know what, guys? Just give us a few. You know what? Thank you so much for your... Thank you so much. No, I don't need that. Just get me my room key and let's keep it moving. And then you don't have to fake anything. Got you. Got you. Okay. I am going to...

I'm going to vote yes for this world because I do think that the pros outweigh the cons. The only thing I would caution you as a world leader, if I humbly may, is that almost similar to my world, there will be a little bit of a race to the bottom in certain interactions because I personally think sometimes the politeness is…

is what holds people over in a situation where they should be pissed off as a customer. And I think that if someone just tells you, hey, the room's not ready and you're like, but it's supposed to be ready. Ah, but it's not. I think that that's going to piss people off so much more than like, ah, my buddy, I'm sorry. It should be right, but it's not. Like, I think that literally that tone thing right there is the difference between people swinging on each other. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So is that a yes from you? Oh, 100% yes. Trevor, as a certified rude bitch who is working on it, I do feel you. I think it's a brilliant idea, but I think we could all stand to be friendly and polite, even at work.

Wow. I know. Christiana's going to vote on behalf of the corporations. I cannot believe this day has come. I know. She's... Yeah. Wow. It's a no from me. I'm sorry, Trevor. But I understand where you're coming from. And I do believe... I agree with you on that, like...

Okay, all right. You know what? You don't have to be nice. I voted no. You gave me the no. You don't have to be nice. We can just end it at that. Can I throw one thing out there? I know votes are final and everything, but one more thing that I didn't think of until just now that I don't even think Trevor mentioned in his argument is that the way that we're starting to rely on AI for some of that customer service, there's no politeness.

It's actually what Trevor's talking about. Like a computer is like, oh yeah, I'll work on that thing. Here's the solution or there's no solution. We'll touch on this another time. It's actually more polite. So they've done studies. Oh, really? Yeah, they asked people to rate AI's bedside manner versus actual doctor's bedside manner. And AI beat actual doctors by I think like 20 to 30 percentage points. Jeez. Wow.

Yeah, in terms of like bedside manner and making you feel AI actually is way more polite than people because AI doesn't have a family waiting at home for it. And AI doesn't have bills that it needs to pay. And AI isn't being stressed by all the shit that's going wrong in its life. So AI can always be polite to you, Josh. Not this AI advocacy now. This turned very quickly.

Well, you know what, guys? This was fun. Wow, Josh, you got zero votes, but a very entertaining proposal. I will say that. I got one vote, and it was from my good friend Josh Johnson, and then I was voted against by the corporate shill, Christiana. Oh, man.

And then Christiana got two votes for her idea, which I'll be honest, I still think is brilliant. Travel more and it would be great if, you know, it wasn't like whether you could afford it or not. It was just like, go see the world, meet people, shake hands, eat different food, learn a different way to be. And you know what? Maybe the world would be a better place.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? What Now?