Harris v. Trump: The Week Before with Tressie McMillan Cottom [VIDEO]
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Maybe I'm too, like, Halloweened.

from everything that's going on. But I feel like you can apply it to everything right now. Because what you've just said applies in the same way. Politics used to be about a moment in time. You wear your costume. What are you going as, right? Oh, I'm going as a ghost. Oh, I'm going as a whatever, right? And then now it's people are wearing their costumes 24-7, 365. And then America wonders why it feels so spooky and eerie all of the time. ♪

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Get 15% off your first order today. So, Tracy McMillan-Cotton, Christiana Mbaka-Medina, who's winning the election? Not us. Can I tell you, I know that America is always on edge when it's election time, but it feels like, and I don't know if this is true, but it feels like

It's becoming more and more on edge from election to election. This is the strangest lead up to an election ever because I don't think anybody knows what's happening or not happening, who's winning or who's not winning. Every poll has Trump up or down. Kamala Harris is...

like winning everything or losing it all. Like in this moment in time, in this moment in time, I just want to know, let's start with this. How are you feeling? I've got so many messages in my phone from the last few days of people texting me to tell me how stressed out they are. And I would point out to the audience, I'm a sociologist. That's not what I do at all, but that's how desperate people are. They're just like contacting anyone that they think can help. Um,

You know, some of this is the hangover from the fact that we can't believe losing the last time didn't get rid of Donald Trump. Right. That's what I think some of this is. We thought we pushed him off of the stage. He's proving to be far more resilient than I think anybody imagined. And so it feels like we didn't really get a break from him. And that's what I think some of this anxiety is about. Yeah. I don't want to believe I've kind of disassociated over the last year.

I don't know, six weeks or so. I just try to talk to people who make me feel happy. I honestly can't do four more years of him. Like, I don't have the emotional stamina. He has the stamina. He could go on forever. But like... He's got that dictator blood, baby. That's what he has. He will go until he dies. If you're from Africa, you know exactly what he has. I remember watching Robert Mugabe and I'd be like, this guy will go on forever. I remember when he beat cancer. And I was like, damn, even cancer was like, I can't do this anymore. Yeah, yeah, cancer...

Yeah. Cancer got Robert Mugabe. Mugabe didn't get cancer. Like, with those type of people, that's what it is. But, and I feel like whether he wins or he loses, he's not going anywhere. I think that's the thing that's kind of disheartening. So I'm like, do we just get another four years so he can't be president again? It's like, I'm like, that's the worst case scenario for me. I know, trust me. This is how I've been kind of speculating to myself.

But then I'm like, why is it even a race? Like whatever you think about her, I think she's abundantly more qualified than he is and saner and less of a criminal. You know, I've been watching a ton of scary movies. Obviously it's Halloween, right? Which is the perfect time I feel like to have it right before the election. America knows how to plan its holidays out. So I'm terrified of scary movies. And I grew up in a world where there was witchcraft. And so for me, it's not even like a joke.

But I decided this year, I was like, let me watch a few. Let me see if I'm immune to it. Turns out I'm not. I'm still terrified. But it was amazing to see how horror movies follow the exact same formula that America's politics and Donald Trump have sort of followed. Like what you just said now, Christiana, is the end of every smile movie. It's where somebody just goes like at some point, they just accept it and they're like, all right, well, take over my body. And then at least this is the end. And that's it.

Like it literally feels like some people are willing or would rather just have it be over than to keep on fighting, which is an understandable feeling. I was optimistic. Remember when we spoke to Tressie last, I was just like, yes, she can do this. And then it's like, actually, it's all my friends who are Democrats who are making me scared. Tressie, as a sociologist, help me understand this.

How is it or is it normal that the political parties themselves have started to come with a personality type, not just a political affiliation? And I'll tell you why I asked this question, right?

Over the past few weeks, we've been watching like the rallies as the race intensifies. We've been seeing people online. But listening to what you just said now, Christiana, is something that I've noticed across the board. Democrats are scared before the election. This is the same as before Biden, by the way. Democrats are scared before the election or liberals or whatever you want to call yourself. And conservative people are like, we got it in the bag. This is the greatest moment of our lifetime. We're doing it, baby.

You know when I hear my president and our president Donald Trump speak, he sounds for real brother. He sounds like he has a heart of gold that's all for the USA. But when I hear Kamala speak, it sounds, yeah, it sounds like a script from Hollywood with a really, really bad actress.

Is there something that explains this? Because I don't know another country where I've seen this. And I'd love to know, Tracy, if you've given any thought to like personality going with a political party. I don't understand it. Yes. I mean, there's a reason why people increasingly over the last like 30 years or so, people who study this kind of like political behavior, talk about how our political affiliation has become our identity. Something that I found fascinating

Personally strange, by the way, I grew up in a politically active family left over from like the civil rights movement and the black power movement. It's not that we didn't participate in electoral politics. We did. Right. We did get out the vote stuff. But I don't remember anyone calling themselves a Democrat as an identity between elections. Right. What has happened is that people think of themselves as their political affiliation now all year round. Right.

All year round. And so because it's become an identity, identities like other identities, right? Identities are attracted to personalities. And this is coincidentally something that I think Donald Trump understood intuitively that Democrats did not. He understood what people wanted from politics, which was different from what they said they wanted, right?

Right. People want to go into a political into the voting booth and into a political party feeling like a member of the party, not as someone who is responsible for democracy or, you know, responsible for freedom and all of that. And what Donald Trump knows how to do is appeal to your identity as opposed to like your morality. Liberals are still struck stuck in this cycle of like wanting to appeal to our higher, better angels.

And frankly, in a consumer-driven, identity-driven society, there is no higher angel. There is no better angel. People just want the softest, cheapest bread. Nobody wants whole grain bread. We want Wonder Bread for $1.99 that will always taste like the Wonder Bread we got last time. And Donald Trump understands that. And he's like, I'll give you all the Wonder Bread you want. I was thinking about this the other day. So

It's weird for me. I've lived through my country's first democracy, like my country's first democratic elections. And one of the biggest things they told us in South Africa when the election was happening, now granted, I was only 10 years old, but this is how powerful the marketing campaign was. The main thing they said was, your vote is your secret.

Your vote is your secret. Now, remember, this is a country where black people were oppressed for like hundreds of years. This is the first time they're going to get to vote. Black people were like, we can tell you who we're voting for. They were like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Your vote is your secret. And then they would teach us this even in school. They were like, your vote is your secret because it is part of keeping a society functioning well. You go into the booth, you vote. And then when you come out, you can talk about politics, but don't tell other people who you voted for. Don't even tell your own family members. And

Recently, I've started realizing how important that is. It's weird to live in a country or in a time when people are only talking about who they voted for or who they're going to vote for or who they think other people should be voting for. Does this make any sense? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I feel you. But I'm just like...

If something has to be a secret, maybe I'm in mum mode now because we don't let Obi and Luna... Our rule is no secrets because secrets aren't safe, right? Anytime you tell a child, like, keep it a secret, something sinister is going to happen, right? I'm just like, why should it...

If something has to be a secret, maybe you should question why. That's my only thing about voting. Like, I come from the other perspective. Like, in England, people are, like, proudly aware of the fact that they're Tories or Labour or Lib Dem or Green. And I don't think, I guess, until Brexit, it wasn't as fraught.

Because it was just like... Your political party was a big part of your identity. I'm not necessarily of the school that it should have to be a secret. I'm glad you brought that up. I was thinking about it. And there were two things that stuck with me. I don't know if these resonate with you at all. One, I thought...

it should be your secret in a place where people have guns and shoot each other. So that's the first thing that I start with. So in South Africa, it was like, your vote should be your secret because shit is crazy out here. Like things were not calm when we were voting for the first time. All right. The second one I was thinking about was, and this is something that I secretly believe might happen in this election.

I think there are a lot of people who are going to wear a certain colored hat and are going to go to certain rallies and they're going to say certain things. But when they go to the voting booth and they pull that little curtain across,

They might vote for themselves and for their bodies and not necessarily to match up with their community. And that's sometimes why I think voting should be secret is because it allows people to vote against the interests of the people they're scared of publicly being against. Yeah, there's a trope of like the Trumpy husband with a good church going wife who is going to vote.

thought coming, perhaps, right? But I guess why I'm feeling so anxious, and Tressie, you may be able to speak to this, is because I'm like, I think over the last 10 years, I'm like, society is just even crazier than I thought. Like, what you said about there being like no higher good, I really feel that. And I think, you know, Trump's America's id, and he

appeals to people's like most base impulses. And I think a lot of people may give into that. I think that's a beautiful way to put it. And I'm not saying that just because I have said the exact same thing, Christiana. I truly believe. I have also said I think Trump is our id. And the thing about the id is that it feels amazing. It

It feels great. It is ultimately destructive, but it feels good on the way down. I'm not sure either how much I how much stock I put in this politically divided, you know, husband wife trope.

I think there is some truth to it, but I think that the benefit to a lot of women of being close to patriarchal power outweighs a lot of their individual fears about their loss over their bodily autonomy. I also think we can't overstate how much, especially on the conservative side, conservatives historically vote for government to regulate others, not themselves. They truly believe that when they vote for

for something to be regulated, that it won't happen to them. And so I think for a lot of women, they are voting to regulate other women. I also don't want to let a lot of women off of the hook because empirically we saw how they voted last time, in particular white women. And I will say something that a friend said to me once. She turned to me and said, Tressie, crackheads don't marry non-crackheads.

Like if both people are sitting at the kitchen table and one is extremely enthusiastically Trump, that your safest bet here is that they share this. Yeah. And yeah, and I have found that to be very helpful to keep in mind. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. He could be right back to the days before Roe.

The days when abortion wasn't as safe as it is today. The days when the number of mothers of color dying in childbirth was 30 to 40 percent higher than when it was under Roe. So to the men who love us, please do not put our lives in the hands of politicians, mostly men who have no clue or do not care about what we as women are going through. Because a vote for him

is a vote against us. The talk that's been most prominent, I think, on the Black voter side, you know, typically I'd say, especially in the Obama years, it would be talking about like the Black church as a voting base and just knowing the Black church were going to go Democrat.

and things kind of splintered in 2016 and 2020. And now a conversation that's become really prominent that I have issues with, because I don't think the numbers are that significant, is black men kind of abandoning the Democratic Party, particularly black men who aren't college educated and who are secular. And, um,

are like may not vote for Harris, right? Do you think it's kind of being overblown and they're going to what many people believe scapegoat black men if Harris loses this election? Or is there a significant portion of black men who are kind of feeling abandoned by the Democrats?

So I think both of those are true, but they are not at the same scale. So, yes, it is empirically true. We're talking about like five percent, though. And journalist Eli Mistel at The Nation recently pointed out, he was like, why are we talking about five percent of black men? Well, overwhelmingly, 85 to 90 percent of black Americans are still going to vote for Kamala Harris. And I could not sign on to that more.

But there's a difference between something being like, oh, that is statistically interesting and it being statistically important. So like, yeah, I don't think ultimately it will be significant electorally. Now, what's interesting about that is I do think that Donald Trump has tapped into this.

this sort of like patriarchal impulse of men, not just Black men, by the way, it's also true for Hispanic men, it's true overwhelmingly again for working class men, which is this desire to see a sort of like, to see themselves as economic breadwinners again. The idea that they want their moment in the sun and Donald Trump becomes a figure saying he can show them and lead them the way. I attribute it more to the decline of the power of the Black church.

than I do of any specific appeal that Trump has to Black men. And what would you say to, I guess, the Hispanic vote, I think, is treated like a monolith. Really, because Cubans in Miami are different from Dominicans in Washington Heights. They're just treated as the same. Or Mexicans in LA, they're treated as the same thing. But the Democrats also have an issue with the Hispanic vote. I think Trump's done a very good job

cultivating this base and they're responding to him and he's able to speak to them in ways that the Democrats aren't. But it doesn't seem to be as much as a story right now anyway. Yes. Yeah, I agree. I think that's because we have such a clear-cut historical narrative about

Black and white voters, right, that we can't deal with the sort of like complexities of the sort of Hispanic coalition, which, as you point out, comes from very different and sometimes conflicting national origins with very different political interests that map sometimes on the race. Like sometimes Cubans are white and sometimes they aren't in ways that I just think is too complicated for a country that is just still stuck.

on black and white. But I do think that fundamentally, I think the question about that is probably more interesting and potentially important given the demographic growth of the Hispanic voting base than it is than the question about black male voters. Yeah, I kept coming back to that, especially to like

speak to like my my husband's relatives and she reads us hispanic to a lot of people um and i'm like well this is a missed opportunity and i also think the democrats not to write their obituary yet have missed out on capitalizing about her being asian also it's just something that they've like they've spent so much time defending her blackness they've also been like hey there's like

we could capture another vote here through our identity. And it seems like... But let me ask you this, though. Let me ask you this. Do you not think that Kamala Harris and the Democrats as a whole have always been in like a lose-lose situation, right? And I'll tell you why they're... For me, they're always in a lose-lose situation. It's because they're a big tent party and it's a coalition, right? So...

When you look at like Donald Trump slash the Republicans, it's easy to go, what is this? All you have to do is if you are a person of color, if you are a certain ethnicity, all you do is you check that in at the door. You say that you're fully MAGA, fully American, and you're welcome, by the way. You are very welcome. I think this is a misconception. You're very welcome.

And then the other people who come in, if they're white, they still get to come in with their grievances and be like, I'm a white man who doesn't get looked at the way I used to. And let me tell you something about what we got to do about it. Right. You get to do that. But now when you're in, there's a singular focus and a singular idea. And what they're selling you is crystal clear.

So they go, come here if you feel like your life's not great anymore. Come here if you feel like you don't have a place in society anymore. It's singular and it's clean, right? Each and every one of you has been loyal to your country. You have loved your country. You've followed the rules. You've paid your taxes. You did everything right. And the system just keeps beating you down, beating you down and beating you down. And if you look at it on the Democrat side, I can't tell you with crystal clarity

what the message is or is not or where you should and and i'm not blaming it on them and i'm not blaming it on kamala so if let's let's play all the games out if kamala harris came out and really pushed on her being asian people would be like what is she doing

She's neglecting the black vote. She's a black woman. How can you neglect such a powerful voting bloc? And if she came out and then she focused, then we go like, ah, she's not thinking of the Asians. And then if you go Hispanic, they're going to be like, wow, really? We're going to get a black woman and she's focusing more on Hispanic voters than she is on black voters, like forgetting our own. And then if she, like, it feels like, it feels like,

There's a simpler path on the Republican side than there is on the Democratic side because the Republican side has one simple idea. And if you join the team, it's like a sports team. You wear the shirt, you cheer for us, and you forget everything that you came with and you're in. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, I kind of disagree.

And I'll say this because... I'll take kind of from Christiana. I'll tell you that much. I really disagree. That means I've made some inroads. I'm trying to be polite about it. But...

Before the ascendance of Donald Trump, the Republican Party, they were publishing a bunch of papers about them and the minority vote. And they were panicked. They were like, we're not reaching black people and not reaching Asians. Exactly. They lost Muslims after 9-11. But like all the blocks that were reliable to them, they couldn't speak to them. And they still struggle with these people because these people are still with the Democrats. Right. So we know they know there's an issue.

And Trump is a very unusual event. And I think what the Democrats have that they forget that Obama embodied is that you just need to say the fact that you have this huge tent is actually a really beneficial thing. Because he was just like, yes, we can. And people were like, sure, if you make people feel good enough that.

The idea that it's like whatever you are, however you're abled, whatever you look like, whatever your sexuality, you are welcome here is a very powerful message. And I just think that the message of fear right now on the Republican side has just been crafted so well and it's so clear. And to me, that's what frustrates me about the Democrats. I'm like, you have to work on your messaging because people, if you say like we have this big tent where our family, we don't always get along.

but you're more welcome here and you're more able to be yourself here than you are on the other side, then I think that's an exciting message. But I think we're agreeing, actually, funny enough. Honestly, I'll tell you why I think we're agreeing. Let's look at Obama as an example.

I believe the seminal moment in Barack Obama's ascendancy is when he's at the convention and he says, there is no red America. There is no blue America. There is just the United States of America. And I heard white people all over the world. Exactly. You heard them in unison, Tressie. You heard them in unison. Yes.

Because what Obama did very well was he did the exact same thing. That's what I'm trying to say. He did what Trump did. He goes, leave it at the door. He's like, I'm not going to poke you on that issue. I'm not going to remind you of the fact that you're white. I'm not going to remind you of, no, no, no, no, no.

Let's do this thing together. Do you know what I mean? Trump doesn't do that. Trump says no trans people. No, no, no, no. He speaks about Mexicans. No. Come on, Trevor. So here's my thing. He's very tribalist and he others groups all the time. And that's why people are drawn to him. Here's something that you have to do with Donald Trump. You have to learn to hear what he's meaning and not just what he's saying. A lot of academic people get stuck on what Donald Trump is saying, but not on what he means. Right? Right.

I remember when Donald Trump did the Muslim ban, people were like, "Well, that's it for him. No Muslim person and no Middle Eastern person is gonna ever vote for him." And I remember speaking to Muslims and Middle Easterners, not just in the US, but in other countries when I traveled to the Middle East, and they were like, "We understand what he's saying."

And I was like, what do you mean you understand? And they were like, no, no, we understand what Donald Trump is saying. He's saying there are, you know, he doesn't want any of these like radical groups coming to America. And then I was like, but he called it a Muslim man. They're like, no, no, look, look, he's not very articulate and he is not going to. But we understand what he said. Even here in the Middle East, we don't want those people.

Huh? We are sick of ISIS. We are sick of extremists. Then I was like, wait, wait, wait, guys. But he did a Muslim ban. So you're banned. Then they were like, yeah, but this we can figure out in time. The most important. And I was like, damn. Yeah. You're hearing something different to me because I'm not listening the same way. And so if you listen to Donald Trump, he's saying to you as a black person, hey, I forget black.

I don't even care about that in that way. It's going to be bad because what does he say? What does he say? No. What does he say with these words? He goes, the blacks, the black jobs are coming. We're bringing all the black jobs back. No, I was just about to say the black jobs message. I actually thought the Democrats made a mistake. Yes. Doubling down on mocking that. My apologies to Michelle. And that's Jesus.

But I thought we made a mistake, Trevor. And I have said this over and over again, but I'm not in control. And that's fine, because what people heard in black jobs was a racialized history about working class people in this country. That actually is true. Yes. If you are my people, like my grandparents and my uncles, there are black jobs.

especially during the height of like unionized manufacturing and industrial labor in this country. They're not insulted that you call that work black job because they were dying to get one of those black jobs. They fought white dominated unions for those black jobs. And what they heard Donald Trump say, the minute he said it, I knew what he meant. And I said, well, I know who that will resonate with, by the way, overwhelmingly men.

who work in like masculine jobs that have a unionized history, what they were hearing was we used to have a certain level of protectionism in the labor market. And yes, it wasn't maybe the best job in the factory, right? It wasn't the best job on the construction site, but we understood what jobs to apply for and where we would get some.

if not preferential treatment, then certainly some understanding that we were supposed to be there. And what Donald Trump understands is that when your instincts are accurate, you'll take any prescription that solves that problem for you. And his prescription right now has a clarity that the Democrats don't have in part, I think, because they don't want to be held responsible for delivering on the clear promise.

See, Trump doesn't worry about that. Damn. He's like, elect me, whatever. I don't care because he's like, as long as I win, you won. Right. And frankly, a lot of his voters agree with that. The Democrats are so scared that they can't actually do it for the clarity of the message that they never get a clear message. Damn. I never thought of it that way. But that's because I mean, look at it with Israel-Palestine.

say what you want about Donald Trump, but he's sort of had a clearer message than Kamala on it. He just goes, we're going to bring peace. That's all he says. He says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to bring peace. Whereas Kamala goes, well, we must look at when this started and also never forget that also there's October 7th, but also the Palestinians. Donald Trump's just like, no, there's going to be peace. And Ukraine, there's going to be peace. They would never do it. But you know, she could never say that. And I think that's what

I don't know if the word is irks, but frustrates me about this election is that she could say and do all the things he says and she couldn't get away with it. Nobody can. Nobody can do the things Donald Trump says and does. Even Republicans can't. No, I think I think I think most mediocre white men can get away with. I don't know about that. If you have a lot of.

enough vim and charisma. Like, he's shown us that, right? As long as you're like, I don't know, Christiana, I think Donald Trump is a freak of nature. He is a freak of nature. He's a freak of nature. Black swan, but he shows you like, I said to my husband the other day, like, he was speaking about someone we know, this white guy, and he never shows up to meetings.

And I was like, that's how you use your whiteness because meetings are a waste of time, right? So he's just never there. And I'm like, listen, if I was a white man, why am I going to meet? I wouldn't meet either. Sure wouldn't. I'm like, that's how you use your privilege in a benign way. He's like kind of always throwing his dick around. He's like, I don't want to go to the meeting. And I think like Donald Trump like uses his whiteness to the max in a way that most white men would never dare. But I think if you're like, I'm going to be really shameless. I'm at the top of the social hierarchy and more,

men adopted Trump's lawyer being, they could get away with so much stuff in a way that I think Harris just cannot. And also, I don't think she's particularly loose in that way. And I don't say that like as to cast dispersion. She's a lawyer. I think it's fair to say some of this is about limitations of the candidate, which right now is, you know, we're not supposed to say, but I just think that's real. This is not her register, right? But I also think to Christiana's point that

I think Trump is particularly gifted as a messenger, even if his political instincts suck.

But he doesn't need strong political instincts right now. The structure of electoral politics in the United States is such that you could run a potato as the Republican candidate and it will be competitive. You know, we have so jury rigged the process. We have got so much gerrymandering. The courts have been packed. I think the real question is why somebody so buffoonish can't tank the Republican ticket. It's that strong.

Now, he sells that better. He makes people feel better about it. But that's, I think, a slightly different gift than his political instincts. Yeah. So, you know what? Let's look at the Trump rally. You know, before we get into any of the analysis, even, I just wanted to talk to you about this rally because I feel like in the home stretch, it doesn't matter what country you're in. A week before the election, all you want to do, all you want to do,

is not fumble the bag. That's all you want to do. Donald Trump and his people, I don't know who signed off on this. I don't know. Because I do believe this could be one of, I don't think, but if Donald Trump loses this election, nobody should take for granted the significance of

of hosting a rally at Madison Square Garden where your opening act comes out. It says that Puerto Rico is a floating pile of trash in the ocean. It says that black people carve watermelon for Halloween. Oh my God. Republicans are the party with a good sense of humor. Free speech is under attack, people. I host a show and each week I get updates what words we're allowed to use and not use anymore.

You know, there's a lot going on. Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah. I think it's called Puerto Rico. Okay. All right. Okay. We're getting there. Yo, let me tell you something. I was watching that and I was just like, who didn't think that that comedian, Tony Hinchcliffe,

taking him out of the context of a comedy space, even if you want to call it edgy or whatever, let's remove that for a second, right? I understand in comedy, people are like, oh, the jokes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But right now, this is not a joke event. And no one knows this is a joke event. And you put this guy up and he goes on and he just like,

There were people who had never posted for the Democrats, by the way, who started posting. Right. Bad Bunny, for instance. Yeah. Pro Kamala. Bad Bunny is like, that's it. J-Lo came out. Ricky Martin came out. I don't know who jumped and who didn't. I'm not saying they did or they didn't, you know, previously, but it was pretty significant to see people like step up now. And the thing is, all Donald Trump had to do was come on stage and say,

You know, I saw Tony and his jokes and Tony's a funny guy, but Tony, come on. Hey, we love Puerto Ricans. We love them. We love them so much, Tony. That's all he had to do. If he came out and said that, it would have been like, oh, you saw that and you acknowledge that that wasn't cool and we're with you. But he didn't. And I think even the people there were just like, well, that's what it is. I'm just saying Tony Hinchcliffe, for me, showed me even in that moment that Donald Trump has something special because he's

Tony Hinchcliffe came up there as a comedian, said a thing. He's made a racist joke, made a few racist jokes and could not get the people to like buy in on it in a way that Donald Trump could. That's another example of what I mean is Trump can get away with that because Trump, even in the moment, would be savvy enough to say, no, I shouldn't say that about Puerto Rico. We love the Puerto. We love that. We love you. Yeah. Yeah. And even in that moment, he's acknowledging and the audience gives him leeway to

Because, and I know this is going to sound very blasphemous, Christiana, don't fight me yet. Okay. Here's what I think Donald Trump has done well, that Barack Obama did well, that Bill Clinton did well, that maybe even George Bush in some ways did well. Donald Trump has understood the element, not maybe instinctively he does, but he's brought church to politics.

When you're in church, both of you, just stick with me. I see your eyebrows. Hold on a second. Okay. Hold on. I'm going to let you. This is my listening face. Everybody relax. I'm going to let you land, Trevor. I've seen you listen in many different ways, Tressie. That's not your I'm with you listening face. So this is what I mean. Do you remember going to church and the pastor would be giving a sermon and this would be a serious sermon. It would be a deep lesson.

And in that lesson, he would throw something out that was so politically incorrect. I remember my brain as a child would literally short circuit for a moment, you know? So,

So he like, let's say he would say, you know, be reading from the scriptures and be like, honor wives, honor thy husbands. And he'd be like, he's like, he's like, but when I when I ask my beautiful Mavis to make me a snack at midnight, she seems to forget that scripture. Come on, woman. And then the crowd would laugh and he and then the pastor would very quickly say, no, no, I kid, I kid. But what is God telling us in this scripture and would quickly come back to?

No, no, no, this is real, this is not. This is real, this is not. But what I feel like great pastors are able to do is they leave the congregation feeling seen

And then they find a way to make it seem like it's about a larger thing. And you shouldn't focus on one specific moment. So the husband gets to walk out of the sermon going, ah, yes, I was seen. As a man, this is my purpose. But a woman gets to walk out of the sermon saying, I'm a woman and I've been validated. A child gets to walk out feeling the same thing. But everyone collectively has sort of been preached to.

You know what I mean? Do you get what I'm saying? But I just feel that like, he's a preacher of darkness. Yes, I understand that. I'm not disagreeing that he brings like this looseness and improv. I don't know if he's church. It doesn't have enough soul for me to quite be church. I think Obama had some of that, but.

you know also I'm a pastor yes but which church but which church the church of darkness no no no but what I'm saying is the church of darkness which church are you talking about when you talk about soul the guitars and the smoke machines and the hot blonde women like those type of things what I'm saying is when you talk about soul I feel like you're looking for soul in the wrong place okay this is what Trump has he's just like an intrusive thought you know like all the things that people want to say but we know we shouldn't say

And we do take delight in those people that I had a great uncle like that who would say the most outrage. I can't even repeat the stuff. Well, he was like the great uncle that was like, oh, they shouldn't let black people in heaven because we'll steal the gold off the street. This was my great uncle. Right. And like you just like you don't know whether to laugh or cry. But he used to get off on saying the really outrageous stuff. And he was very beloved. And.

People were drawn to him. He reminds me of Trump. Trump reminds me of him. And I think, yeah, that's fine for a great uncle drinking Hennessy in his living room. But then like when you have a crowd of people and he's like, well, they're going to give your child is going to go to school, a boy and come back a girl. And it's just like, where are we? Where are we going with this? Because he's humorous, but he's also stoking up hatred. Trevor, that's the thing.

Definitely. And I just want to say, I don't want us to implicate Hennessy here. I don't like to leave Hennessy out of this conversation. I'm sorry. It was his favorite trick. Thank you. And Kavassi. He'd love both. Yeah, deserves that shade. But I hear you, Christian. Get ready for me to nerd out a little in this new segment, F1 Love, where we'll talk about all things F1 and the huge amount of things happening coming F1 Las Vegas GP.

Did I ever tell you about the first time I went to a Formula 1 race? No, you didn't. Same story. But I love Formula 1. Like, love, love, love, love, love Formula 1. So I am...

I was introduced to Formula One by my dad, right? And my dad is Swiss-German, not very good at showing affection, but really good at like displaying it in his own way. So my mom was all hugs, kisses, smiles, laughter, throw me up in the air, run around with... My dad was very much like, are you fed? Do you want to do something? Do you want to watch something? Okay, here we... And my favorite thing was we used to watch Formula One. So that's how I grew up, right? Loving Formula One. There's a radio station in South Africa.

And they're hosting a competition to go and watch Formula One in Brazil. And you got to enter the competition. And it was this whole thing. You had to like do Formula One commentary. And I literally, I'll never forget this. I said to my cousin, I think I've won the competition. And he's like, but you haven't even phoned in yet. And I said, yeah, I think I've won already. And literally I phoned in and they didn't call me back.

And so I went to the radio station and I was like, hey, I'm pretty certain I won the competition, but I haven't heard. And they're like, well, that's a little arrogant. Like, if we didn't call you, you didn't win. Then I was like, no, I definitely won. I just want to know why you didn't call me. And then the woman at the station was like, wait, there was one person who called.

And it cut off before we got to their name and their phone number. Was that you? And then they played the tape. I was like, that's me. And they're like, oh yeah, come back for the finals. And then long story short, I did it again. I won again. And I was one of 10 people who got to go to Sao Paulo. Oh my God, this is crazy. Trevor, your life, the law just gets... What is happening? And it was one of my... Let me tell... If you've never been to a Formula One race...

It is one of the most exciting experiences you will ever, ever get to have. You will love Formula One because it transforms the city that it's in. So the newest races on the calendar is in Vegas. And I know people will be like, Vegas? Like, where do you race in? Yeah, they race in Vegas. In Vegas itself? On the streets. Yeah, they build a circuit, race through the streets of Vegas. You know, sometimes people will talk about like a partner or friend. They'll be like, I feel like we've always known each other.

That's how Vegas seems when F1 is there. It seems like it was made for the city because think about what Formula 1 is. It is young hotshots trying to make their names known. All these beautiful people around them. Champagne. Champagne.

A party, excitement, noise, thrills, bright lights. It is Vegas. It is one of like the most exciting. And what I like about it being in Vegas is it feels like the city is geared to having people there. Because I don't like it when sporting events go to places where the place is almost not ready for the event. And they don't want the people. No, they don't. Vegas is like, no, no, come. Come here. And have you been to a Formula One race? No, I haven't. But growing up, I'd like to watch like Schumacher and David Hill. Yes.

I love it. But yeah, I'd watch it as a kid and it was a zoom.

around this you should go vegas is around the corner for you yeah but i'm not gonna obi luna your kids would love f1 he'd want to join in he'd really want to be at the pit stop changing the tires you've got to do it like i don't know it's it's like a it's like a mini world can family is it like a family that's probably the best thing yeah that's the best thing about it is people are in the stands they're cheering together and it's an experience it's not

You know, there's some sports where if you don't get the sport, then you don't really want to be there. You know, but Formula One is just, I mean. Oh, the premise is simple. It is simple. There's a car and it's trying to drive faster than another car. And the car's a different brand. Exactly. Exactly. So you and Obi have to go.

Okay, we need a chaperone. Yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We'll make it like, yeah, we'll make it a trip. See you in Vegas. See you in Vegas. That was F1 Love brought to you by F1 Race Week in Las Vegas, November 21 to 23. Tickets are available now by visiting F1LasVegasGP.com. And everybody here knows this is going to be a tight race till the very end. So we have a lot of work to do. But we like hard work.

Work is good work. Work is joyful work. And make no mistake, we will win. There's two things I really want us to get to in the conversation that I. So first of all, do you acknowledge the possibility that your fears are overblown and Kamala might win this thing?

I used to think she would win. But now you don't. It's because of the coastal elites in my life have made me feel so depressed. Did you feel like Biden would win when he won? No, I didn't think Biden would win in 2020. I did not believe he would win. I don't know why. And you did, Tressie.

I did. I thought COVID was that important of an external shock. And so, yes, I thought people, there's something they're finally more scared of than their so-called economic insecurity and xenophobia. And that was COVID. Because that's what I think all of this is, what we're

Trump gives as a solution to these existential fears. But there was something finally bigger and it was COVID. And so I did think that Biden stood up better than fair chance. And Tressie, do you think Harris is going to win? The fears are overblown. What do you think? I think that anything is possible. I think it is possible for her to win and not win. And let me tell you why. I...

I do think that her campaign is particularly savvy, but Donald Trump doesn't need to win to win. I think that Donald Trump is going to declare victory election night no matter what happens and will immediately start litigating that both in the courts and in his voters' minds. And I'm not sure the Democrats are willing to go as far as Donald Trump is.

and I, that scares me. If this is a straightforward election and people accept the election certification of results, then I think that she might have enough enthusiasm to get the kind of turnout that she needs. Uh, uh, so like, I think in Georgia, I think things like her black social institutions are absolutely going to matter. I just think the AKs are just going to run Georgia all to the hell and back. Um,

But again, that's assuming a Trump campaign that I don't think exists, which is one that will accept the electoral results. Wow. I didn't see that as an answer.

You see now, that's scarier to me than just an election. I know, I'm so sorry. But now I'm less scared because at her heart, she's a prosecutor and I know she'll have her lawyers in place. Now I'm like, okay, fine. If it comes down to legal stuff, I feel like she'll play messy in a way we've never seen because she really wants this. I agree. I do think that she wants this to a degree that we so far have underestimated. Yeah.

When I see Kamala in the moments when I think she is her most self, that girl is a shark. And I say that with a great deal of respect because I like to think I'm a little scary too. So I'm not saying that's bad. I just, that's, I think you are exactly right. And I think some of what's happened in her campaign has been moderating that. Yeah, they've been softening. For all of the reasons for race and gender and all that kind of stuff. But I agree with you. I think that she is a shark. I think she wants it and would be willing to go to the mat for

I just hope the Democratic Party is willing to let her. And get behind her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this. What is happening with Tucker Carlson? Like, what is happening in his private life? All I know is, let's not look at his browser history. I know that. Right? That man gave a speech at the Turning Point Convention.

And in it, he basically goes on to draw an analogy between Trump coming back as president and a father coming back home to kids who are misbehaving. Now, as an analogy stands, it's pretty innocuous at that level. But what he says afterwards is mind blowing. If you allow people to get away with things that are completely over the top and outrageous...

If you allow your two-year-old to smear the contents of his diapers on the wall of your living room and you do nothing about it, if you allow your 14-year-old to light a joint at the breakfast table, if you allow your hormone-addled 15-year-old daughter to, like, slam the door of her bedroom and give you the finger, you're going to get more of it. And those kids are going to wind up in rehab. It's not good for you, and it's not good for them. No. There has to be a point at which dad comes home. He then goes on to say...

He's like, America's been bad. And he goes, he says, this is the part that stuck with me. I paraphrase most of it. But essentially, he says, he says, he says, your son is smoking marijuana at the dinner table. He's like, no more of that. And your daughter is slamming her bedroom door in your face. Well, you know what? Daddy's coming home. Daddy's coming home. And you've been a bad girl.

a bad, bad girl, and you're going to get a vigorous spanking. That's right. You're going to get spanked, you bad, bad girl. And no, it's not going to hurt me more than it hurts you. Oh, it's going to hurt you way more, but you've been a bad girl. And you're just like, are we? Have we just traveled with you into your deepest dark? There were two things that stuck out for me. One, I found it interesting that even in his analogy,

The girl had to do way less to get a spanking. Let's just start with that. I'm so glad you caught that. That was one of the... I was like, why is he obsessed with the daughter? The boy is smoking weed. The boy smoked marijuana at the table. Even if you are like a super liberal, chilled out family, someone smoking weed at the dinner table, come on, someone's going to have a problem with that. The girl slammed her door. That's all she did. And then daddy comes home to beat her. I was like, what is happening in Tucker Carlson's life?

I also would point out that not only did the daughter get the extreme amount of retribution, her retribution is sexualized. That's very similar to the type of sexualization of daughters that Donald Trump has done and has gotten away with recently.

uh, ad nauseum. And it's just been absolutely stunning to me. Um, so I think there are two things here. I think Tucker Carlson, uh, has some of that economic anxiety. We like to talk about Tucker ain't got no job. And I think if people don't have a job, they will do a lot to get some attention. Things have not landed the way he thought they would after he left Fox. And he will say anything to get back on the stage. That's number one. Um,

And he knows what will do that, right? He knows what's the most extreme case. But I also think, and I'm not sure he would do this consciously, but I think the fixation on the daughter, the gendered nature of that rant is very much about who they think the problem is in this electorate, in this campaign. That's exactly what it was. That's exactly what it was. Yeah. And also who he was speaking to, like turning point, big religious crowd. And I don't know how much like, I

Okay, you guys know I'm into the trad wives. I'm also into like the people that have like loads of kids and the quiver film movement. And so much of it is based on disciplining children. Like it's like a cornerstone of the movement. Spare the rod and, you know, spoil the child. These are the only white people in the world who still beat their kids.

So I think he also knew it was like, this is what that crowd wants to hear. We're going to have a president that agrees with you when you beat your daughter for doing something relatively minor. So he's like still savvy in that way. But also, I think, you know, some sexual fantasies there as well. I wonder how much of everything America is experiencing in its politics and in many parts of the world just boils down to men feeling like the world is moving in a direction that they have no place in and that

that's the only reason they're voting the way they're voting. - Yeah. - Like it, it. - Yeah. - Yeah.

That there you go. I mean, you do that with a sprinkling of climate change. That's the whole shebang. Yeah, that's it. It really just feels like that because it's funny you say climate change. Literally everything I can I can tie it back. So you go climate change. The real thing people are angry about is they're telling you you can't drive a truck, you know, and then it's like gender identity. They're telling you that you can't be a man.

You know, and then like guns, they're telling you, you can't protect your family or shoot somebody who you feel is threatening you or your family. You name the issue. You know what I mean? Like when it comes to economic, the border, they're saying that your jobs are going to be taken. It's literally just a response for me. It seems like what they've done really well is saying, hey, men, this is your political party.

And this is your moment. And this is you getting back. It's like MAGA should be like, make American guys again. You know what I mean? Because it's like, it feels like it's all just about guys. And then the women that come along with them. Also, Trevor, I agree. It's completely like male anxiety because...

you know, there's so much research about men essentially falling behind, like university enrollment, more women than men. I was about to say this just because we got some college degrees. Exactly, college degrees and more earning power. But there are also women who are craving the protection of men, like as a Black woman. My TikTok feed is like,

black women, how to secure a high value man. Yeah. You know, the soft life, the soft life, like how to do, how to do, how to do your hair and how to wear your makeup. So you will attract a strong masculine man and you live in your feminine energy. So it's like, I, we can blame like the male anxiety, but I'm seeing women of my age and younger say, I don't want to do it anymore.

I don't want to work anymore. It's scary out there. I would rather be under the authority of a man. He's my one boss. And I'll take whatever comes with that because I've tried capitalism and it hasn't worked for me. And I think that's why it's scary because there's kind of like the intersection of those desires coming from very different places. But there are women out there that do want to have a man who can afford to maintain, be the sole earner and they can stay at home.

As much as I think that's a woman's choice, but a lot of women aren't making this out of a sense of choice. They're making it because the world is a horrible place if you're a woman in the workplace. Yeah, marriage has always been a capitalist fantasy. This has always been cosplaying capitalism. When we feel the most romantic about marriage,

uh, marriage. It is when capitalism isn't working, uh, out for us in a weird way. The fact that black women are now opting into that fantasy fantasy is its own sign of progress, believe it or not, that they think that they think they have this option and that black men can provide it for them. Cause I'm seeing the same thing, Christiana. I, I will say as much as I'm seeing that, however, uh,

Black women opting into that. I know so much of that is driven by my algorithm and it's who I am and that's fine. But I think that the real sort of threat there and has always been the threat are white women who are doing it not just because of their economic insecurity, but are doing it so that they can defend the interest of their white sons. So see, Black women aren't doing that, right? Because we know it's not promised for our sons.

And so I think this is why we see white women voters voting against their own self-interest in many ways, voting against their own daughter's self-interest and possibility because they are doubling down on defending their son's patriarchal privilege. And that to me is what is dangerous because that's not just about capitalism, right? That's about like property and violence and wanting to be on the right side of the fence.

And I think in that sort of scenario, this is one of the reasons why you see women go to a Donald Trump rally and want him to sign their boobs. And they have sexualized him and turned him into a sexual figure, despite the fact that he quite literally looks like an orange wedge. Like, we know the man isn't sex.

They are attractive, right? But they are projecting onto them what they want to be able to pass on to their sons. Yeah. Tressie, and this is not even me trying to like redeem the white woman voter in any way, because I think the numbers will speak for themselves.

But I did IVF. And so I'm in a lot of IVF groups and communities. And funnily enough, where I did IVF was in Texas. So I would see in the clinics really young women. I'm talking women from like 23 to 30, conservative, Christian, et cetera, et cetera. What's been interesting to me is a lot of these women who are like church going,

typically pro-life, the abortion ban has kind of overlapped with the issue of IVF and they're not happy with it. Do you think there are enough of those women who are unhappy with the fact that like...

well, when I have a miscarriage, I can't actually get the care I need because of Roe v. Wade falling down and its implication in places like Texas and Georgia, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think there are enough of those women that perhaps Harris may just take it, win and really win? I hope that there are, Christiana. That's your way of saying that. And...

Well, if you had asked me this, actually, when the last time we were all together, I would have said, yeah, I see this going. But then, I don't know, I saw J.D. Vance's response to that on that debate stage that night. And he was so smooth in papering that over of saying, no, we really are only going after abortion. Of course we want you to be able to have babies. And we're reasonable. We can be moved on that. And while I don't think that's the message they're getting from Donald Trump, I think

that it was enough for them to think that there might be a future where they can keep Trump, but also have this like moderating force there that won't deny them IVF, but will still deny bad women, sinful women, their access to abortion and birth control. They're not asking for actual policies. They just want assurances. And I think they're willing to lie to give

to give them that assurance and i do think they want protections of ivf like the rulings that have come down in louisiana etc have been worrying and they see a model yeah and they're just like make sure that we can still make embryos and i can make babies i don't care about the abortions but now the abortions have encroached on that so it'll be interesting to see what happens i just i just wonder as as people are wrapping up the race christiana my main criticism really

would have been less about appealing to certain voters. And I think Kamala Harris and the Democrats spent way too much time talking about the danger of Donald Trump. And I'll tell you why. The first time around, you can use that as your argument because people are like, what is this thing? He said he's going to build a wall. He said he's going to, he said he's going to,

But in the same way that news and weather channels in America have lost their ability to get people to evacuate when a storm is impending, I think the Democrats shouldn't take for granted that you can only say this thing is going to end the world so many times. And because he's had a presidency where the world didn't end, your argument gets undermined. And now I'm not saying now this is where people make a mistake. People think...

that dictatorships and authoritarian regimes are built overnight, but they're not, right? People think like armies march in the streets. It doesn't happen that way. If you read history and if you've lived in those countries, you know, it's a very gradual creep. So I think that's where people make the mistake. But I do think they spend too much time doing that because it's not scary in the same way anymore. And people are like, yeah, but I lived through a Trump presidency. It was annoying, but...

I don't know. It's not unknown anymore. And I think they could have spent more time telling people what they would do for them as opposed to scaring people off from this like mystery man who's no longer a mystery. Does that make sense? Trevor, you're speaking like she's lost. See, this is why I'm getting depressed and anxious. No, no, no, no, no. Can I tell you something? I fixed this a few minutes ago. No, no, no, no. Okay, so here's the difference for me. Here's the difference for me. Um...

I don't think anything is a foregone conclusion until the day, right? The election comes down to a few hundred thousand votes, regardless of the popular votes. So I always have hope. If you remember when I was at The Daily Show, I had hope. I mean, hope is the wrong word, maybe. But like, I thought that Donald Trump could win in 2016. And people were like, you're crazy. And I was like, no, but look, look at what he's saying. And look at how it's connecting. And look at what he's...

So in the same way, I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that Kamala has lost this thing because I do think there are a lot of people out there who are just like, they're bored.

They don't want to be part of politics. They don't want to be... But you know what they don't want? They don't want chaos. Yeah. They don't want like another four years of like breaking news every day. They don't want abortion restrictions. They don't want IVF restrictions. They don't want a wall. But they're just quiet. They're just like, just leave me alone. I don't even want to be called a Democrat or a Republican. I think right now in America, actually...

This is the largest. Tress, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, because I know you know numbers like crazy. But like it feels like more people than ever don't have a label to their voting right now. Right. People just are like, no, I'm neither. No, I'm not even independent. It's just like I'm undeclared. And I think that's actually a good sign for Kamala Harris, because an undeclared vote voter doesn't vote for Donald Trump. When you're Trump, you're Trump.

But an undeclared voter can vote for Kamala Harris and for the Democrats because they go, look, man, I might not even think you guys are sexy, but let's just keep it moving. So I actually have hope the other way around. If I bet my money, I'm betting like 51% Kamala Harris wins the thing.

But I wouldn't bet my money because I don't like those odds. There you go. There you go. I think that's the right answer. Yeah, I wouldn't. Keep your money in your pocket and your ID in your wallet. Tressie, is there advice that you would give people on how to maintain their sanity? Since everyone's texting you, we may as well. I'm giving you the opportunity to pre-text everyone back.

I appreciate that, by the way, because I don't like sending actual text messages. You know, I think as much as professional politicos and activists

People have to pay attention to polls. I really hate polling culture and what it has done to us. I mean, it's right up there to me with like the red and blue maps, right? It just does something to the human psyche that is not good or healthy. I promise you the polls are not deterministic. It is okay to check out of that. You are not a bad citizen if you don't keep up with the polls. I would argue you might be a bad citizen if you don't go vote. Okay.

Or at least have a good reason for not voting because I allow those things. I understand those things. But I don't think you need to follow the polls. And I promise you, if you stop following them, you will feel marginally but measurably better. Go vote. Take somebody with you if you are inclined to do so and know that you've done your part. And I'm going to tell you, I have to watch the returns come in that night. I'll be up to like 2 a.m. blogging for The New York Times. I don't think most Americans need to do that.

I'm not kidding you. I think this is going to be a long, drawn out one. And so, you know, opt out of the back and forth and you'll feel a little better.

Christiana, a lot of that was just for you. It was all for me. Okay, thank you. It was really all for you. I'll take it. It was truly all for you. Well, Tressie, this was all for us. Thank you again for joining us. The next time we speak, America may have its new president. We don't know yet. They may have elected. Let's say America may have elected.

its new president. Tressie has agreed to join us on the podcast next week. I may even be sober. I want drunk Tressie. That is fun. Can I tell you, we should make that a date. All of us, we just shots, we just go crazy, and we just do a drunk episode post the election, drunk out of our minds. What now? Lit edition. I'm down. I'm down too.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? What Now?