Harris v. Trump: The Day After with Tressie McMillan Cottom
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So I've been thinking of every different way to start this conversation and I thought why not start with a feeling? If you were to choose a song

for the moment that you're experiencing right now post-election, what song would you pick? Because I've had a few spinning in my head and I feel like this is like something that I know part of it is an ADHD brain, but I always wake up with songs playing in my head. But I started to notice that there's a correlation between the song and the latent emotion that I'm experiencing. And

Two of the songs I Will Survive has been playing and not even just for me, but for everyone. I don't know why, but you know me, Christiana. I'm the eternal optimist. So I Will Survive has been blaring in my head. And then the other one has been living in America. That's all that's been going on.

But if you were to pick one song right now for this moment, for how you feel, what would it be? I'll go after Tressie. Cause she's been up all night. She's been up more than anyone else. So I feel like you have more songs. You know, you think people are your homies and you see what happens.

For whatever reason, Trevor, when you said this, I had nothing in mind. You have no music in your head? That's how bad it is? No. But the minute you said it, for whatever reason, all I could hear was, America, I only wanted to see you crying in the purple rain. Wow. The purple rain. Wow. I don't know. It just, you know that moment in Purple Rain when you're crying, but you don't know why? I'm not sure who this song's about. I'm not sure why it's so sad. But.

But it feels like a eulogy. It feels like a eulogy. Josh. Yeah. Which J. Cole song is in your head right now? Wow. Wow. I there's more to me than that. I have Diana Ross's I'm coming out because I think that. Oh, I think that to a certain degree now. That's good. People know.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's good. We can't act like we don't know. I think this is the last time, while at least the people alive now are alive, that they can act shocked. Oh, damn. Okay. I like this.

I like this. Yeah, that's good. All right, Christiana, what's your song? Oh, my God. It's going to sound so pretentious. That's why I'm, like, afraid to say it. Yeah, but throw it. Throw it. Everything is lost anyway now, so just throw it in. So, well, the Pentecostal in me, the first song was, like, No Weapon by Fred Hammond, where it's like, no weapon formed against me shall prosper. But that's, like, what I feel like when somebody...

speeds past me in traffic. So I don't know if it's like for this moment. And there's a waltz by Chopin in C sharp minor that I love. It's a very romantic and sad song. And I played it during the pandemic. And it came up today. So that was that kind of my mood.

I hate to sound like that. No, no, no. Is that a song from Bridgerton? I don't know if it's from Bridgerton, but it's like one of his most famous movements. Once people say what key a song is in, I can tell they read. That's what people do that read. They know the keys of songs. That is it.

I remember realizing how far I am from sophisticated when Alicia Keys' album came out, Songs in A Minor. And I thought that she was saying songs in a minor like she was a young child growing up. And that's what the songs were. And then like somebody said it one day and they're like, songs in A minor. And I was like, yeah, songs in a minor. And they're like, no, in A minor. I was like, oh man, I'm very far from going to the opera. My favorite fact about the album is that most of the songs are not in A minor.

Oh, shame. Shame. Well, look at that. But maybe this is why progressives lose elections, because there's so much pretension. You're fact-checking an Alicia Keys album. The country doesn't want that. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with AppleCard.

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So, welcome everybody. Welcome to all of you, my friends. And welcome to everybody who is listening and joining us for our first post-election podcast. Donald J. Trump won the election, in case you didn't know this. It's pretty insane. I'm in Australia now. I was in New Zealand when the results came out. And it's wild how this is like an international election in a way that... Like, growing up, we knew who America's president was. But...

We didn't follow the election the way we did. I was in New Zealand watching New Zealand TV in Auckland and they were talking about Maricopa County. Do you understand how strange it is listening to people and they were like, well, yeah. And if you look at the results coming out of DeKalb, it looks like Trump's really surging right now. And this could be a moment in time when the Trump president and you're just like, I'm in New Zealand and these people are as transfixed by this thing

as everybody else. You know, it's funny, Tressie, I was thinking back to our conversations. I was thinking back to your writing. And I went back and I read like everything that you, I guess it was a conversation that you did for the New York Times five days before the election. And as much as you were trying to give us hope, when I look at your words, you were basically just telling us, weren't you? You just told it. You kept on saying, it's not looking good.

Well, you know, it's really tough. My job is to tell things as truthfully as I can. I try to do that well and sometimes beautifully. That's all I can manage. But when emotions are high, like they were during this election, even I feel a little responsible for people's emotional well-being, you know, and I knew that.

It wasn't that people were following the polls. It wasn't that people, I think, were looking at the foundational issues. I don't think they were looking at the fundamentals. This was an emotion-driven response. So when my friends and my peer group who, you know, spoiler alert, are overwhelmingly liberal and left, were turning to me and going like, you know, what do you think? I knew they didn't mean really what do I think.

They meant make me feel better, right? Like people, this was a moment when people needed church. And unfortunately, you know, enough of them don't go to church. They were just looking for like some secular, you know, preaching. And the problem is that I'm not a great preacher. But yes, that was me doing my best to say, well, you know, there's hope over yonder. And in the by and the by, I mean, I don't know. I didn't know what else to say.

Yeah, but you said the thing and you said it time and time again. You said it's not looking good. And maybe this is the first thing that I wanted us to all talk about because post-election, and Josh, you and I speak about this all the time for sports and for the elections and everything else. I love how everybody reverse engineers everything to match the conclusion.

I saw pundits on TV, on the news, talking about why Harris was going to win and why Trump was going to lose. And then a day later saying, well, I'll tell you why Harris was always going to lose. And she did everything wrong and Trump did everything right. And I just go like, what do you think happened here? Do you think Donald Trump won the election or do you think Kamala Harris lost the election?

Oh, that's a great question.

I do. It's going to be the best answer. Watch this. I do. Under under deliver over promise. Josh Johnson. Nah. Twenty twenty eight. I'm voting for you. Really just handed you exactly as I see it. Really whelming you. So basically, I think that.

It was a little bit more about Harris losing, or at least that's going to become the story of it. And she lost more votes than losing to Trump. She lost to like the memory of Joe Biden, who we weren't excited about when that was happening. We were like, yeah, that guy's not well when he ran the first time was like a thing that people whispered. And so I think that there's also going to be a thing for

Dems, I think that Dems have more to assess and learn and people to listen to than like Republicans do because you learn the least when you win. And and I think that's actually what sets people up to lose next time because they're like, no, we'll just do win again. We do more. Yeah. I mean,

That is, I'm serious. That was brilliant. See, I think Trevor is right. You way. Josh, I know, I know Josh Johnson. I know. Let me tell you something. I know Josh Johnson. If, if my life was in danger and I called five people and four of them said, we'll save your life. Josh would say, I don't know if I can help, but I'll try. That man is showing up with a rope and he's pulling me out of that cabin. Let me tell you something. Now I know Josh Johnson.

Under promise, over deliver. That's what he does. I'm running your polls, Josh. You see, I predicted this. Oh, no. You know, it's funny that you say that. I couldn't help feeling that. And I don't want to say something that's too prescriptive about American politics forever. But it feels like America has gotten to the place where its politics is exactly like sports in that teams only show up when it's an elimination game.

And if the players don't feel like it's an elimination game, people don't show up. Do you know what I mean? So when I think of like Trump 2016,

His people played like it was an elimination game, like for real, for real. They showed up. They were like, this is the end of everything. Remember, they had been coming out of eight years of Obama where they saw the end of their lives. Yeah, they were like, we are fighting for the future of this country. This is this is it. It's over. And they voted accordingly. Right. Then when Trump was in power, his people are like, yeah, he's in power.

And then everyone else is voting for Biden because it's COVID. And everyone's like, we have to vote because otherwise we're all going to die. We are literally all going to die in our apartments scrubbing packages because Fauci told us to. And then now Trump's people again are like, it's the end. Like you saw the Rogan. I don't know if you watched the Rogan interview with Elon Musk. I found really interesting because it was a very like somber mood. It wasn't like a bro-y thing. They were very much like, this is the end of democracy and

If we do not make this moment last, if we do not make this thing count, this will be the last time we ever see an election ever again. And I feel like they voted like that. And then Kamala's people were just like, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't know. I your original question about like, did Kamala lose or Trump win?

I feel a lot of voters that went for Trump didn't necessarily vote for him. They voted as an FU to the Democrat establishment. Wow. You think that many of them? Absolutely. I think that like the problem with the Democrats is that they think they're better, but they won't admit that they think they're better. Right. Fake humility is worse than arrogance. Fake humility is worse than arrogance. And I think that they are sick of being spoken down to.

about the wrong things. I think they're sick of their concerns being dismissed, whether these concerns are over like immigration, over economy, over quote unquote black jobs.

And the Democrats have never kind of taken that seriously. They've kind of like, you know, Obama came out and wagged his fingers at black men in a way that I thought was not appropriate. And I think enough people are tired of that to either stay at home. I think Palestine was another issue as well. They're like, we're going to stay at home. Like, you're not going to hold my vote for ransom. And they were saying more F you to the Democrats than that they love Trump. But I think Trump now is

made it so that he's probably one of the most consequential American political figures since maybe Reagan, Roosevelt. I think he'll go down in history as that for good and for bad, right? But that I think we can make it all about Trump's, but we're missing that the alternative have failed terribly. And as Tressie, as you said last week, like it's not enough to say we're not Trump.

And that's all they were telling people. And that was not enough. It sounds like you're saying Kamala lost for you. Like she lost. Do you know what?

Well, this is the thing. I want to push back on that because I feel like they handed the black woman the poison chalice. And now we're supposed to throw her under the bus and say, I'm like, no, Nancy Pelosi and all those elites, they lost. And she was a figurehead. OK, so then do we want to say the Democrats lost? I say the Democrat establishment completely lost. And I think they became complacent.

when Biden won, right? They became very complacent and Biden was supposed to run again. They didn't do a primary. There's so many things that they did wrong, but I just don't want to say like Kamala lost. I'm like, no, the old guard who Obama is now part of, right? The old guard of the Democrat party. I believe they lost collectively because they're completely out of touch with what Americans want. And Trump,

Even if it's to their lower impulses, he knows how people feel. One, thanking you, Christiana, for saying, I'm also really want to push back on did Kamala lose. Again, as somebody who is on record saying, I thought she was an imperfect candidate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I also know from both research and my own lived experience that it is really easy and convenient for everybody to blame the Black woman.

And so I just, you know, always want to stand on that. Having said that, I talked to a lot of people in the run up to this election who should have been excited. And when I say excited, I think people thought I meant enthusiastic. But Trevor, I mean excited like you mean, which is that they felt a sense of urgency. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They felt a sense of like collective will and collective responsibility. And they were not scared of a day after Trump's reelection. No.

The Democrats assumed that saying Trump could be reelected was self-evident. That saying that in and of itself was

Trump was going to be so cataclysmically bad and people would remember how bad it was and remember it the way they think they should remember it to the point of arrogance, by the way. I think it's a lot of hubris and arrogance in that. And instead, I talked to like and not just like leftists who were mad on policy issues. I talked to Democrats or should be Democrats who were like, Trump wins. Is my life really that much different than it is today? Mm hmm.

That's a problem for Democrats who were running not on a platform promoting why Kamala was a better candidate, but promoting why Trump was dangerous.

And if that's the only, you know, if that's the drum you're beating, then people need to feel the urgency of that danger. And I kept saying, I'm not seeing it. I'm talking to people who should be terrified, including women, young women who should be terrified post Dobbs. And they weren't. Lots of reasons, I think, for that. But the Democrats did not respond to the words.

right emotional impulse that people had. And so people, listen, I think Tuesday or the week before the election can roll around and you can intend to vote. You can think voting would be pretty good, pretty decent to do. But that's not the same kind of urgency that I think a first Black woman candidate with a three-month-long campaign needed. She needed people to feel like, if I don't go vote, I'm going to die. Yeah.

And I mean, one thing to really back up everything that Tracy is saying, there's messaging that cannot all be left to one person. I think that by and large, most of the people that I talk to, we lost on the economy. And it feels crazy that that Dems lost on the economy because all of at least the public billionaires are backing Trump.

So if you are a poor person and life is is is not going well for you and inflation is chasing you because I even I've even talked about this with friends. Inflation, especially when you talk about inflation during Halloween, inflation is the killer with the knife.

And you, as the as the person who is broke, are the person running with a broken heel. So you see in the movie when you're running with a broken heel and inflation not even bothering to run inflation walking behind you because they know they're going to get you eventually. It's all the rich people who are the track stars who already got away that are like, that's

terrible, right? If all of the public billionaires are backing a supposed billionaire telling you they're going to make the economy better for you and you believe that, that is some true short-sightedness because as Dems, you could be like, listen, I'm not even going to go after the billionaires because I know those are the billionaires y'all like. I'm going to go after, you talk about eggs, right? Price of eggs? Okay.

It's over for Walmart. We're not going to let Walmart price gouge you anymore. And I think that that is a thing that was like so that that could have been so consequential because that's something that is not at all divisive.

Who likes the price of their eggs being hot? You mean? So there were little things like that party wise. That's like, that's like you could have attacked this thing because what a lot of Republicans did is be like, listen, they're gonna make your kids gay and trans. These people are the enemy, whatever. You can't enemy the enemy.

all the time, but you can make an enemy out of an actual entity that is hurting you. And that's when you could have been like, he wants to do this for the economy, that tariff thing's not going to work. The price gouges are what we're going to take out. So here, I agree with you fundamentally, but this is where I come back to what Christiana started this conversation on. Chopin in, what was it? C major? C sharp. C sharp minor. Okay.

So here's what I feel about this. And I've had this feeling since from the time I was hosting The Daily Show. And you remember sitting there, Josh and Christiana and us sitting in these rooms, watching the debates, etc. I still say it till this day.

I think we take for granted that most people who are voting do not have access to the answer nor the vocabulary of the answer that like the skilled people have. Do you get what I'm saying? So I agree with you, Josh.

But the difference between the two people is like, if you said to Donald Trump, hey, Donald Trump, eggs are expensive. Do you know what Donald Trump said? He came out and he's like, when I'm president, eggs are going to go down. We're going to take the prices down, folks. I'm going to bring your energy bill down by 50%. You hear me? 50%.

No one said how, no one said why. He just said, I'm going to do it. And then they say, how are you going to do it? Then he says, tariffs. I'm going to make them pay more. And now economists go, oh no, you see a tariff. If you just apply a tariff like this, what's going to happen is that you've got supply and demand. And then on the outside, the tariff, we are actually paying for it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But people on the ground were like, yeah, he's going to make China pay for my eggs. Now,

If you know how to play the piano and you know what C sharp minor is, you're going to look at Trump, quote unquote, singing the song or playing the song. And you're like, that doesn't make sense. He's off key. But for the person in the street, for most people, I would argue what I call the layman. The difference is most people are hearing this as, ah, this person knows music and they can sing.

This person just said C-sharp minor. I don't know what that is. And I don't even know who this Chopin rapper might or might not be. I don't keep up with it. What I do know is this person gave me an answer. And now I'm not just saying Kamala and Trump, by the way. I'm using them as like the stars of the teams. You know, Jason Tatum, LeBron James. Let's say that, you know, it's the Democrats and the Republicans. One thing throughout this race

that the Republicans did well was they distilled it down to an issue that you could identify with and they made it seem simple in how they were going to fix it. Whether or not it will be fixed is almost irrelevant, but it was a lot easier to understand as opposed to the levers of an economy that no one understands about. No one really understands those things. Yeah, I think the Republicans have a long history of having elites that know how to play the fool.

Because no one is more elite than Donald Trump. No one is more elite than George Bush in terms of that. He's not playing the fool though, but yes, but let's carry on. No, no, no. Donald Trump is a simple man. Donald Trump, he's from money, but he's a simple man. That man cannot break down a complicated concept for you because it's complicated to him. He's a simple guy. Sure, but I think he's probably more exposed to

than the people he's speaking to at his rallies. But he's not saying that this is like a Brioni suit that is custom, even though it looks like shit. He's putting that aside, right? Which George Bush was very good at, hence why they wanted to have a beer with him, right? He was like, these people are far more calculating than I think we give them credit for. And they're populist. And I think the Democrats for a long time have believed that's beneath them.

Right. So they're going to say C sharp minor rather than it's a good song. It's catchy. Do you know what I mean? And my issue is, is that we we've let these people stay in power for so long because the funny thing about Trump is people forget he has hijacked the party.

We don't know what comes after him, but he just hijacked it and he's pulled it to the right. And I feel now the Democrat Party is up for the taking. You can burn it down and you can hijack it and pull it to the left with populist language. Like, just like my limited understanding in the time I've lived here, I've seen swings and it's a country that enjoys to swing. I think Trump is the ying to Obama's yang. So now it's up for the take, like,

AOC and like those, the squad, they can burn it down and do whatever. And I think that's what needs to come next, that the establishment just needs to be raised because they can't win. They don't know how to do it. But there is an incredible opportunity. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

As an African, I think we should never take for granted the possibility of somebody leading long after they're technically the leader. And I think Trump, you see what you said is very important. He has hijacked the Republican Party, right?

I see a world, a possibility, where he went, he's won now, obviously. He's won, he's president. Maybe he does 22nd Amendment, maybe he doesn't. I think that's less likely. But I can see a world where he becomes kingmaker of the Republican Party for as long as he's copus mentis and alive and savvy. Where he says, where he basically goes, you are now going to vote for J.D. Vance, and I'm technically not running, but this is my thing, and his people will still go with him. Yeah.

So I think you don't think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think it's going to be the inverse. I think it's going to be he's going to be Mugabe. Yes. I think if you look at some of the Senate races, I think that like there's one thing when when Trump is coming to town, it is like when the pop star is coming to town.

So if there's a rally for the candidate and the pop star is like, oh, they're doing a feature, they're opening for me, that's cool for the day. And if that's very close to the election, then I think it does swing some ways. But like, if you don't have Trump's swag, you're not going to carry Trump's torch.

And I think that we saw a little bit of that in 2022 that if you were uncharismatic enough and if you don't know what to do next, like if you're possibly looking to Trump for real policy, you're going to drown yourself.

I agree with this, which is that Trump, you know, it's on the record that Trump is actually a horrible endorsement to get. Right. He does not he does not positively influence down ballot races. So most of the candidates that he endorses lose, lose badly. Right.

But running for president is actually, I think, a slightly different beast. So, like, no, I don't think he can be a kingmaker for governors. Goodness, no. He doesn't have the level of detail and follow through necessary to get into the weeds of state and local politics and the intricacies of things like that. What he has proven can happen, however, with presidential politics. And I think he has changed this.

Probably for my lifetime, y'all. I think he's changed it because what he has done is he has stress tested the system and said, this is what you can get away with and still win. Right. There's the structure of electoral politics in this country set up for a two party system. It doesn't matter how bad one of those parties is. Doesn't matter how undemocratic one of those parties is. Right.

So at the presidential level, he has also proven you can kind of shock and awe with presidential politics in a way that you cannot in a state or local race. In state and local races, those people have to live there, right? Like there's only so much a governor can do when his kid still goes to school down the street and he still has to live there. At the presidential level, you're voting for personality in a way that you

aren't in local and state races, which is why I think Trump doesn't translate well into those races. But unfortunately, presidential politics has become basically a competition of, you know, characters and, you know, wrestling characters, right? I don't think people, to Christiana's point, really care about policy. They care that somebody knows the policy to a certain extent.

But you're right. I don't think people want to get into the weeds. I think that is absolute hubris on Democrats' part that if they just sit people down with enough white papers, right, they'll get them to understand. Trump is understood intuitively, by the way. I don't think this is really like a conscious strategy, but he understands intuitively that what people want is they want to feel good. And that is actually good enough in presidential politics.

to not maybe run the board, but certainly to build you a base. And that's what presidential politics need. They need a base. So I can see a future where there's a J.D. Vance with a Trump in the shadow who adds the messaging because he is very good at the messaging. J.D. Vance is not. He sucks at it. Very, very good. But J.D. Vance is good at strategy. He knows how to win and he knows how to govern, something that Donald Trump is not good at doing.

And I actually think if you put those two things together in the presidential level, Trump can still be quite a kingmaker. He also can bring the money to the table. And in presidential politics, money matters so much. And this unholy alliance with people like Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, I think it will matter in presidential politics.

That's so interesting because I don't know, maybe this maybe it's why I feel so zen about it, because I think he's going to destroy himself in the way that Nixon did because of his deep seated insecurity. But I think if we look at the because we're focusing on the fact he won, he was incredibly sloppy. He wasn't as sharp. He wasn't the same Trump that, you know, came down the escalator.

And my feeling is, is that he's going to decline because he's 78 years old and there's only so much evil and petty that can keep you strong for that long. It is. And when I say it's going to be Mugabe, they're going to, in the way what they did with Biden, you're kind of pushing this old guy out. He's a puppet and you get what you want behind the scenes.

I just think it's just age is going to catch up with him. And I think we're already witnessing a lot of his cognitive decline and his sloppiness, which is a scary thing. Wait, you actually, you think that? I'll be honest with you. I don't see that. Yeah, I do. I don't see like... He wasn't a shark. He wasn't a shark. There was a reason those people were leaving the rally. Yeah, he doesn't have troops the same way. It's not the same Trump. And that's why I say the Democrats...

blew it because they lost against that guy in the car. I know he's not Pete Trump, but he's still formidable. I don't. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. He's formidable. I'm not. I mean, it's kind of like, I don't know, a boxer. I'm terrible with sports analogy. I will leave it to like. No, no, no. I think he is in decline. But even in decline, he could beat

He could beat blue. And that says a lot about the state of blue. That's just- Yes, yes. That I agree with completely. I would argue that Trump hasn't gotten sloppy. I think that Trump is Trump. He's just- The guy really put the work in for this election. The guy was flying between multiple stops. He was doing multiple shows. He was at multiple rallies. He wanted to win.

- Exactly, that was a hell of a motivation. Him and his January 6th people are like, "All right, we're fighting for our lives here." And you know better than anyone, Josh, you and I both, we talk about this all the time. When you're a comedian, you're on the road. You have your jokes, you have your set, you're doing your thing. There's a fine balance between doing the show that you're doing and working the new stuff that you hopefully want to become something great over time.

Like you have to watch out for how sloppy you could become if you took every gig that comes your way, because it's inevitable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you are in decline. You know what I mean? But I think that like what you're what you're saying is like if you know, if you tour enough and if you're doing enough, then like it starts to all sort of get get mushy. I think the actual mush is coming from one. Even his bass is kind of used to him at this point.

There's not as much. That is true. Yeah, there's not as much shock and awe to the shock and awe. So the shock and awe is more become we're shocked that he doesn't care that his things translate into the real world faster than they ever have, because that's what's happening. So he says they're eating the dogs, eating the cats and we laugh at him. Right. Because that's what we're used to from 2016. But when the bomb threats come in the next day.

that's where we're like, oh, wow, not only are people bold, they're reacting faster. Like the whole like,

anti-immigrant stuff with Mexicans, it took a little while and it took him winning for it to get really bold. Now this took like three days, right? And I think that that shock and awe is more an attitude than it is what he's saying. And I think that that's where people like are starting to fall off of him. So I get what you're saying, but I agree with Christiana a little bit more where even if it's not cognitive decline, we're getting so used to Trump that it becomes like, like,

You're not surprised anymore. No, that's yeah, that's valid. I agree with all of this. But when we say Trump, see, I think that Trump is more than Donald J. Trump. And so like he's 78 and he may be slowing down a bit. And I agree that his material is getting slow. But, y'all, I looked at that RNC. I looked at that Republican National Convention and Homeboy has a bench.

Right. His family alone. We keep talking about his relationship with J.D. Vance, but his son is the one who brought J.D. Vance into the fold. Yes. You know, Trump is now a style of politicking. It is a dynasty like the Bushes were.

Right. Like Obama, coincidentally, has not managed to build. That's part of the reason why the Democrats are suffering. We were supposed to be transitioning to a new dynasty and it's not there. But Trump is actually presenting one. It is that daughter in law, that creepy Laura girl. Sorry. You know, and that's before we get to the acolytes of.

uh, that are in the Senate. Um, the Matt Gaetz's of the world, for example, Trump is now a style of politics. And when I say that Trump owns the G GOP, I mean both the man. And again, what he has proven as possible for other people in his mold and who are quite committed to him. I was just talking to somebody yesterday. Um,

Not a Trump supporter, but who has worked with him in a professional capacity. And he's like, what people miss is that the people in Trump's inner circle are loyal to him. They like that man because he's good to them in the way that they understand transactionally, but it's good to them. Right. And so I think we're dealing with a Trump entity that.

For the foreseeable future, whether Trump declines or not. And so when I say that there's a kingmaker, I think kissing the ring, whichever one of the Trumps is wearing the ring at the moment, right? Yeah. Be in his image. Like Trumpism as an ideology. I feel that it's lasted longer than I have anticipated. Yeah.

And, you know, you're seeing flashes of it all over Western Europe because now you're like, oh, I can lie. Double down on the lie. Say it's fake news and it didn't happen. Right. So it's just like it's even in our like common language. It's funny. I actually came around to what I think your point is. And I think I may agree with you. So.

You know, it's funny. I think sports is a perfect analogy for most things because it has such a particular structure and support that matches up with politics. And so forgive me for going to sport, but I think of it like this. In every sports league, especially when sports are like the leagues are young, there are generally one or two teams that define the league.

You know, so in basketball, there'll be like a few teams. They'll be like, oh, it's the Lakers and it's the Celtics. And those are the teams and they define the game. And that's what the game is. You know, in soccer, it'll be the same depending on which country you're in. They'll be like, this is the team. It's Manchester United and it's Arsenal. It's these are the teams that. And then what happens is like in basketball, for instance, Steph Curry comes along. Steph Curry comes along.

and breaks the game of basketball in a way that nobody ever anticipated he goes actually you don't need to go to the rim all the time you should just shoot the ball from far and statistically it actually is going to work out better for you and then it grows and it grows and the golden state warriors gets better and better and the next thing you know it's not just steph now it's steph and it's clay and i remember the basketball world going what what has happened here

We knew basketball, and now we don't. And to your point, Cristiano, you thought that it would disappear until we saw quote-unquote big men now shooting three-pointers.

Now the guys that used to say that their game was all about going to the rim, they started shooting threes and the game started evolving. And I argue the game of basketball has never been the same ever since, right? And so in a weird way, I think of it here as like Trump. Like the renegade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what he did was he came from the inside like a parasite taking over its host. So he didn't go, he didn't make the mistake Jill Stein made of saying like, I'm not in the system. He's like, no, no, no. I'm fully in the system. I am a Republican. Yeah.

I am a Republican. Republicans come with me. And then he said the things. And now Republicans didn't have to say, do we choose between a Republican or Donald Trump? They said, no, I like this version of a Republican. And so now to your point, Christiana, I argue that the Republican Party is out of politics in America and the Trump Trump Party is now in. It's a two party system. It's the Democrats versus the Trumps.

And so to your point, there is an opportunity for somebody to come in and do to the Democratic Party what Trump did to the Republican Party and take it over from the inside. Bernie had a moment of it, but maybe he wasn't like the right candidate and the right everything. But there's definitely a moment and an opportunity for somebody to do that, to come in and say, I am a Democrat.

but let me tell you why we should close the border. Or I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why we aren't going to support Israel. I am a Democrat, but let me tell you why. And they, whatever those things are that they string together, they may be able to take over the host from the inside. And then in the future, we'll look back and go, oh, remember the Republicans and Democrats, quote unquote. But really,

America's parties constantly change. Yes. We just don't realize what dynasty we're in. So we say it's the Democrats unless the Republicans, but it's not. Yeah. We are now in the era of the Trumps and the whoever is going to be, I guess the vacancy of the Obama. That's a huge part of the problem. Listen, I just finished saying at the top of the show that I don't like to blame a black woman for everything. Maybe I don't have this problem with black men and I'm going to work on that with my own soul later. Because I

I do think part of what was supposed to happen did not happen. And the void that was left in the Democratic Party...

Some of that, yes, by Obama's transition, but also the Democrats cleared the deck in that party to make way for Hillary Clinton to run as the candidate that year. And some of the way they cleared the deck was, I think, offensive to some people. So you look around, for example, and I kept asking people, where's Castro? Where's like, I was naming all these people from like just six years ago, and they're like basically gone within the party.

That was an entire bench of people who were supposed to be that infrastructure of this is the new container for Democrats. Right. But to your point, Christiana, we have had these moments in time before on both sides. It's just that I think that our time for this generation was supposed to be Obama and.

And if it didn't happen, I worry a little bit that that tends to be like a once in a generation kind of thing. Right. I remember Clinton, for example. Clinton was my first like, you know, the first American president I was aware of. And Clinton was that type of game changer. He remade the I'm sorry, the first Clinton. I'm sorry. He remade the Democratic Party over in the image of Reagan.

He said, you can stay a Democrat, but still like these things that Ronald Reagan liked. And I'm going to give it to you in these cool, funny Southern stories. That's literally his whole magic. And yes, a once in a lifetime kind of politician and a communicator. But that's what he did. Obama came along and kind of teased that, promised that a new Obama coalition that wasn't just supposed to be a coalition of the electorate. It was supposed to be a new coalition of the party itself.

When that sort of crumbles because they're demoralized because Trump wins and it was a deeply racist response to his presidency, to be fair, and I suspect that was traumatic. But we didn't rebuild after that. And I'm not sure that you get another chance. Like, that's not an every four years kind of thing is what I'm saying. I think you have to have the infrastructure to build those people up. And when they cleared the deck for Hillary Clinton. Yeah, you're talking about building a championship winning team. Yes, I am. I think. Sure, that sounds like exactly what...

That's exactly what you're talking about. That's what every sports fan goes through this every few years. Oh, yeah, because isn't that when Philadelphia says trust the process? Exactly. Oh, I did it. Exactly. Out here. Every few years, every few years, there's a moment you'll be a championship winning team. And there are very few teams in the world that have found, it's almost impossible, but have found a way to win.

not go through a period of now having to reestablish and re-identify themselves. If anything, I would argue the best teams are just the ones who can minimize the amount of time. But there will always be a moment where you're reconfiguring, you're rebuilding. It's a new moment. It's a new team. Yeah.

And then it's like Manchester United thought it would be short. It hasn't been. And they're suffering all over the world, all their fans. But then a team like Barcelona, they had a few seasons and now they're back playing some of the best football in the world. Liverpool is going through that period now. And it's interesting to see in sports and in politics how you have to have that ideology. You have to go, okay, we are going to lose for a little bit.

but we are losing because we're building towards something. We're trying to minimize our losses while losing about what the future will be. And to your point, I think that's where people do not give Republicans enough credit, where they lost hard with Obama, and then they said, we are now going to go to the school boards,

We're now going to go to the local councils. We're going to start grinding from scratch. And for eight years, while people are watching Obama, these people with Mitch McConnell are just chipping away, building up this infrastructure that then Trump infrastructure that they've put in. It's not, you know what I mean? Yes, Trump's the star player, but man, they've got a powerful team. They've got a really, really powerful team. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now? after this.

It's also where like messaging side of like a Trump presidency, because now you can lie and you can tell big lies and then you're just not going to do anything. But I do think that if they do any of what they've been proposing and it goes as badly as the economists and all the people who don't know how to talk to people say it will go. That's another thing that I think is very hard to come back from. And that's an opportunity for Democrats to pounce because it's like.

This guy said his economic plan. He said to Trevor's point, we're going to do it beautiful. We don't even know what that means, but we know it's going to be great. Then my man has four years to do it beautiful. Right. And then you're poorer than you were four years ago. So if he did it beautiful, it's ugly. And maybe he didn't do anything. That's when the Dems step in with like real messaging around like,

Do you feel pretty? Because if you don't feel pretty, then like... Do you feel pretty? It's good. And that's what we're so bad at sometimes. But yeah, Trevor. Can I throw something at you, though? And again, this is... I'm going to say this with the biggest caveat up top because I know this part is not like sports in that people's lives are affected. So I will say that up top. If you look at America's cycle, forget how you feel politically. You cannot deny economically...

The cycle has been, Democrats have come in, fixed the economy after the eight years of it being fixed. Like just as they get to it, it's like, oh, thank you Obama for getting us out of the recession. People are complacent. And then they go like, actually we want a Republican in. Republicans come in, they take a massive dump on the economy. Democrats come in again, they fix the thing.

But I don't think that Democrats have a problem winning per se or taking a moment like those opportunities. And maybe, Tracey, this is something you can speak to. I want to know why it feels like Democrats are not trying to make

the policies of the voters permanent when they are in power. Do you know what I mean? Why isn't Obama codifying Roe v. Wade? Why aren't they like, when they have two thirds majorities and when they have the power, why does it feel like, like when Trump said in his victory speech now, he said, I'm going back to what I said, promises made, promises kept. And I sat there thinking, man, if you're a Trump supporter,

you are having a great time because that man said, I'm going to build the wall. And then he pushed with all his power to build it. Now you can argue which piece wasn't built. Yo, there's wall that like is there. You know what I'm saying? When he said, I'm not going to start wars or the man you can argue, but he,

Even if it feels that way, it seems like he's really pushing and he's putting in the Supreme Court justices that he said he's going to put in and he's pushing for these conservative judges across the border. But it feels like Democrats, when they do win, Josh, and they get all that power, they go, okay, we now have all the power.

But now would be a good time to talk to the Republicans and ask them how they feel about us wielding our power. Mitch McConnell. But Trevor, just to push back, Biden was very progressive in ways. Oh, I'm not saying he wasn't. I think

I feel like Biden was actually as ballsy as I hoped Obama would be. Like there's stuff that he did that the Republicans were pushing back on hard, especially around infrastructure, et cetera. So I feel like Biden kind of breaks that. No, but he does. He does. Because don't forget, Biden didn't lose. Hey, hey. That's true. You know what I mean? That's very true. Yeah, I almost forgot. I almost forgot. Don't do that. Don't do that.

Don't forget that. You are right. OK. You're absolutely correct. So this cycle that you talk about totally. Yes. A known thing. Right. So Democrats with some variability tend to build up the state or build out state capacity and Republicans shrink it. Right.

What I think happens with people, though, like why people don't reward the building of the state capacity that actually could possibly improve their lives is I think it's a couple of things. I think, one, it's back to the story of that's not a fun, sexy story. You even take Biden, right, who I think this is part of his challenge. Inflation was sexier than the fact that he had pushed through the most meaningful climate change legislation that this country has managed to get off of the ground because he called it something boring. He called it infrastructure.

Right. Yeah. He hid it in that. And that is the way that you make legislation work. But it is a terrible story. I say as a writer. Right. Nobody wants to hear about the infrastructure bill, but it does improve your life. It's just that the dots connecting that big, boring thing to your everyday life and how you feel about it. Not a great story. The second thing is that people like the government best when the government works for them, but they don't know it's the government working. Right.

So the government's got a real branding problem here, right? Like everybody loves for the trains to run on time, but nobody wants to pay for trains.

So, you know, again, it's a hard story to tell because they're expensive, they're slow, they take a long time. And I think that's the third and final thing I would say. Some of the big projects that we need done, especially now, these are big projects, right? These are things that we would be voting for today and the people voting for it probably won't see it come to fruition. Like you're probably voting for something for your kids. And like we say we do that. Oh, I'm voting for my children's future. No, we're not. People don't vote for their kids' future. Right.

I haven't even met my kids yet. When kids ain't met their kids. They don't know where them kids at. They don't care. When it comes down to brass tacks, I'm not coming after the parents. I'm just saying loving your kids. Oh, no, come for us, Tressie. Loving your kids in theory and loving them when it comes time to vote when you are motivated by all of your own stuff, right? It's not that the dad went in and voted against his daughter not having health care.

Like, yeah, we get that, you know, conceptually maybe. But he's like, oh, no, my kid won't have that problem as long as I can make enough money. She doesn't have these issues. So really, I'm voting my economic interests and I'm going to buy her out of this whole abortion, reproductive health nonsense. Right. Like there's always a way, I think, for people to motivate a story about loving their kids that happens to conveniently fit their ideological priors.

And so when you start coming at people on that emotional level, and that's the kind of stuff that Democrats tend to fall back on because, again, it's hard to write and sell a sexy story about building bridges. And also, Tressie, to piggyback off you,

I think that we can be frank and say that people are a bit sexist. People are a bit racist. People really don't care that much about whether their neighbor can get an abortion. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, you're angry because I won't let you kill your baby. You're like, you fucking made up. Right? And so it's just like, I think...

Trump and Trumpism appeals to a way of life that Democrats think is way beneath them and has no place in their party, but a way of life that is very human nuance. And like this was a culture war as much as like, 'cause you know, the Wall Street Journal did a piece about how like whoever becomes president is gonna inherit one of the strongest economies America has ever had, right? That is just a fact, inflation aside.

People really care about culture and how they live day to day. And they look at the Democrats, whichever way you put it, whether it's from race or gender or sexuality or schooling, and they're like, I don't like that. So the Democrats need to figure out a way of making who they are seem palatable. And I think Obama was really a master of that.

He was like, I am all these things and I'm still one of you and you're part of me. But the Democrats have moved away from that. Right. And they need to figure out a way to get back to that and talk about these issues in a way that are really palatable, because I think even issues that seem really thorny, like trans rights, when you speak to someone and you break it down, they're like, huh, OK, OK, I don't want to be me, that person. Right. But like if you really break down what the experience is, imagine being born in the wrong body.

People are like, that's messed up. Like when you put it in that language, but when you turn around to someone and the first thing you say, you're transphobic, bigger, you kind of lose them. And so I think the Democrats really need to figure out how do we make how we speak about these life issues that people are grappling with palatable in a way that they know that being with us is being on the right side of history. Yeah. And politicians, especially people who didn't start in politics. This is why Trump does well.

A lot of these people who like.

are calculated enough to know they want to be president by the third grade are also not good at talking to people in the third grade. So they've had they've had a lifetime of not knowing how to talk to people. And these are the most successful people who don't know how to talk to people. I really knew a kid like that. Yeah. And it's like it's like they always wanted to be class president. Like they don't know how to talk to people. And one of the things which like Tressie, I think you and I can speak to this specifically, which I'll be interested in whether or not you agree with me, but like

There's human nature and then there's American nature. And there's something to be said for an American nature. There is this like I think it was like Stokely Carmichael that said like one of the biggest grifts America ever had was convincing you you could be as rich as a Rockefeller next year. Yeah.

And it's like a lot of these other countries talk about Scandinavian countries who grab countries that are doing well and this, that and the other. One of the things they don't have, they may have criminals, they may have scams, but they don't have ball out culture in that way. And a lot of Americans don't understand the difference between shenanigans.

struggling economically and not being rich. Because I think that there are so many people who are struggling and we don't really care about those people by and large, either party day to day. But what we care about is making people who already have a little bit of money feel like they can have a lot of money because that's the that's like the wave. You do end up with a huge problem in communication. And they and that's kind of what I mean, where I'm like,

And eventually America and Dems especially will have to figure out how to break the mold of like this mythology that a lot of I mean, if I'm being like.

completely blunt. A lot of upper class white Americans have, which is all things being left alone. I will be incredibly successful in this country. And then there are people who understand the reality of competition, especially black women. Right. And I think that you end up in a place where if you cannot convince people that you can help them by doing something for them, you'll keep convincing them you can help them by doing something to someone else.

And eventually that won't work, but it won't work if you get the messaging right after it fails. And that's that's like the crucial point. Like that.

And people are actually not better off. And if all you can say, Kamala did it during one of the debates. She was like she was so confident and she was so right that she was like, you know what I'm gonna tell you to do? Go to one of his rallies. I bet you leave early. And that's why it hurt him. Yes, it was true. Yes. And it was in his language and in his people's register. That's exactly right. Exactly. And I think that if you as Dems.

Get the old guard out and get the new guard in of people who are desperate, who think they're going to die and know how to talk to people. Now you can get the people who just say they're running for a Senate race. They're running for a gubernatorial race. And they're like, I want you to go home tonight. I want you to open your Chase account.

And I want you to look at it now and take a snapshot and then look at it in two years after I've been in office. But like that's and I think that's how you beat people. I will be your first bundler, Josh. I know like 20 people right now with a hundred dollars laying around. I will bundle those hundred dollars for you. Yeah.

Because that is the big political economy question. That's all Josh has described, and I could not agree with it more. You got to solve a long, deep, hard problem for people. And until you actually solve those fundamentals, which neither party is really trying to do, somebody like Trump will be able to come along and sell a story about it instead. And yes, people will eventually become disappointed, but they'll just buy another story. Yeah. All day long. So-

I know we're going to need to wrap up soon, but I wanted to, I sometimes think of, you know, one of my favorite movies is The Matrix because I just think it broke everything that the genre had, it even invented a genre in many ways. And one of my favorite lines is, and one of my favorite moments really is in the movies when Agent Smith is speaking to Morpheus and he has this long monologue just telling Morpheus about humans and the world.

And there's one part where he says to Morpheus, he says, you know, we tried to set it up perfectly. We had a world built with no pain and no suffering, but the humans kept rejecting it. Something about it just didn't work. And he talks about how, and I know this is fictional, but like he talks about how they made a world

that was perfect to trap the humans in, but then the humans rejected the world. And so then they had to make the world with as much suffering and pain as it really had. And then humans were fine being trapped in it. I know this may sound like a crazy thing to you, but like, is it also possible to accept the fact that this is also inevitable? Democrats can't win forever. Republicans can't win forever. And even if we take it away from America, which sometimes helps me get a little clarity when I'm trying to think on issues, especially when they're political,

Go to a country where everything is pretty amazing, you know, by most standards, like a Norway, a Sweden or wherever. In those countries, all of a sudden the political party starts losing votes. Do you know what I mean? It's like people create a new baseline. They create a new floor. They create a new level. Is it not just inevitable? Like, is America not just going to be in this cycle forever and like...

You know, and I don't want I don't want it to seem like I'm being no, no, no. Am I being like a little Buddhist about it? But it's like it is very Buddhist. I was thinking that the whole time. Yeah, because I do think that there's a there's if you take it to an individual level, there is a cyclical nature to approaching politics because everyone who is not in politics can be in it all the time, which is why I think people care once every four years.

And I think that's why they think that's the only election that they have to vote in. And like, I mean, I try to vote all the time and sometimes I go to vote and I might be the only one who win. Like there are some times where I'm like, I see poll workers and nobody else in here, right? And I think that to what Tressie was saying earlier, it's like there is a urgency than complacency in rotation. And so I think that when it comes to politics, there is a little bit of like,

a need to find out over and over again, a y'all must have forgot over and over again. So in terms of the inevitability of it all, I think America is the one place where nothing isn't inevitable. The reason I moved to America like most immigrants or expats, whatever you want to call me, is because of opportunity. And living here, I've realized about this country, it really is a casino, right? That is

all it is, and sometimes you throw the dice and you win big, and sometimes you lose everything you have. And what makes America so intoxicating and remarkable is the fact that it is a casino, right? And like, you go to most of Western Europe, society is set, caste is set, you can't get out of your class

America is the only place where you could get an Obama and you could get a Trump. You could have slavery to reconstruction to Jim Crow to present day and see the change in Black people, right? The advancements and the remaining of suffering. It's so contradictory in that way. And

One thing I've learned living here, if there is any country that has the capacity for revolutionary and radical change in an incredibly brief period of time, where we take like England, like 75, 100 years, America can do it in seven. And we've seen that with Trump, right? He's a big example of that. Like, you don't know what's coming next. And just like we had an Obama, we may get an Obama that makes good on the promise.

And now that Trump's in power, I think there is a vacuum for that. And there is a way that we could just lean into the darkness and be like, OK, the darkness is going to win. And I'm not like, you know, I'm not optimistic about shit. I like I think humans are terrible. So this is not coming. But this is just like the American experiment is a heartbreaking but also a very remarkable one.

So there is a scenario where something comes out of this that is completely unexpected, apart from like me being deported, which is probably going to happen by the time he gets in power. I actually love that. I love that as an idea. You know, I think that's a beautiful place to end it actually. It is the casino.

And I think that's what makes it spectacular is that exactly what you're saying. We've seen so many moments where the dice has landed perfectly. And man, you can't deny being around for those moments in America is a pretty special feeling. And then we've also seen moments where like now, ironically, it depends on whose view you're taking. Are you are you because if you're right now, if you're not a Trump supporter.

You're seeing it from the perspective of like you rolled the dice and you lost everything. But if you're a Trump supporter, you're going, yes, somebody has won. Somebody has won. Every time someone loses in a casino. This is the best time to be an American that they have ever experienced. Exactly. It is exactly that. That is the most perfect analogy I've ever heard, Christiana, because if you've spent, I've spent a lot of time in casinos. Comedy in casinos goes hand in hand, unfortunately. Yeah.

- Let me tell you something now. It is the most depressing and inspiring place you have ever been in your life because you'll see one person in a corner mortgaging their house or bringing a pink slip for their car because they've lost it all. And on the other side, you will see somebody who's just made 30 new friends because they're on a hot streak of rolling the dice and it's all going well. And that, yeah. So in many ways right now, I guess you're right. People just have to keep rolling the dice.

And it also means America could lose everything. Yes, it is a casino, but I think the house always wins. Isn't that what we say about the casino? That's the only thing, y'all. I guess what I'm saying is I want to be the house. If there's a country where you can be a house, America. I'll throw this at you, actually. You know when you say the house always wins? I think of this.

While literally when we started recording this, I looked at the stock market and it has rallied to its greatest. A trillion dollars. You know, a trillion dollars has been added to the stock market. That is the house. And I think that's something. You know, Josh, you touched on it in a beautiful way. Tressie, you talk about all the time. Christiana, if you think about it.

No matter who wins or loses the elections in America, Wall Street always wins. That's the house, baby. Now you're talking my language. You will lose your house. You will not be able to go to school. You will lose your factory job.

Jobs will go to Mexico. Your kid won't be able to go to school. You'll feel like the schools are racist. You'll feel like trans people are taking over. You'll feel like sports is not what it used to be. You'll feel like people can't say what they want to. People can't use certain words. You'll feel like it's good, it's bad, it's this. But can I tell you who has never stopped winning? If you go look at the graph, it's Wall Street. The SMP, baby, the SMP. The SMP.

Yeah, the house always wins. Well, once again, Tressie, thank you very much. I started this conversation feeling great, but I feel even greater right now. You know, you step in every time and yeah, you make all things great again. You're mega, Tressie. That's who you are. You are my mega. I felt where that was going in an instant. And you still got me. And I was going to tell you how happy I was to see your face. That's what I was going to say to you.

I was like, look at that face. I'm so happy to see that face. Now I'm going to say, Josh, it was so good to see your cute little face. Josh, you were so good. Thanks so much. I hope the two of you will be in competition for my affection. Always a pleasure. I'm going to get some rest because you have not slept.

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