Harris-Trump Debate Debrief with Tressie McMillan Cottom
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- You know when they talk about the debate prep? They'll say like, oh, they prepared and they prepared Donald Trump. I always wonder what the prep actually entails. And Kamala Harris was so on point with her reactions. I wonder if they like, they brought in like a meme expert. And they were like, all right, all right, Madam Vice President, so we need you to make as many memeable faces as possible. We need you to give, she gave, she had the perfect meme gif face.

Kamala Harris. What's up? Good to be here. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus, you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card.

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That was quite the debate.

Oh, man. I love saying the most random thing to see how you'll react. Happy podcast day, everybody. How you doing? How's everybody doing? What's up, Christiana? What's up, Josh? Happy podcast day. Happy podcast day. I was expecting you to say happy podcast day. I know. I know. I knew that you were doing that. And then I was like, what could I say to throw you off? I was trying to be that preacher who comes out and just says the most random thing ever. Like, I'm never buying that again. And then the congregation just looks at them like, wait, wait, buying what? The Lord be with you. And also with you. But wait, what happened? What happened?

What happened? Yeah, I mean, what happened is a good question. Yes, what happened indeed. These are the episodes I sort of love the most because we are all in the most different places possible. So I'm in the Netherlands where I watched the debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris at

three o'clock in the morning. Christiana watched it in California, the freest state in America. And then Josh Johnson, I'm assuming you watched in New York. Mm-hmm.

Like, was it like a fight night in New York or was it just a regular watch the debate? No, it was like a fight night because there were moments where, okay, I've watched lots of boxing and everything. And whenever you pass a bar where the boxing is happening, there have been a few times in my life where I've seen a fight where somebody got knocked out, but they didn't move right away and it get quiet. Yeah.

And that's exactly what it looked like at moments where I would pass a bar. You hear the debate blaring and people just quiet. Like, like you, you would think that Trump hit his head in front of everybody and was bleeding out his ear because the way that he would be talking and everyone, it wasn't even like no one was even giggling. It was like, this is weird. That's what I felt like. I don't want to tip the plot here, but it felt very weird.

Oh, I don't think there's a plot to tip. I feel like this conversation is one of those where if you are tuning into this episode, we're recording this episode a day after the debate. You're going to listen to it two days after the debate. But I think everyone saw it. There were a few questions I had for this that I know you're going to have great answers for. And our guest, who's like a superstar guest joining us, Tressie McMillan-Cotton, she'll always bring a different perspective to

to any conversation. So I'm really excited to have her back on because I know she's a fan favorite. But yeah, I don't think there's tipping anything here. It's just like, okay, maybe the one thing I found myself asking was, how much crazier can Trump actually get? Is that what you're asking? That's interesting. No, really. Yeah, yeah. Really. I was like, because maybe I'm not used to him or maybe I don't watch his stuff as much as I used to. I don't know. But

Is it just me or does he seem like he's a little deeper in than he was before? Yeah, he's somehow both an old man and chronically online. Yeah. You don't see the two mix often. Yeah. And you know what it was for me? It was because I kept thinking back to the Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump debates.

And for reasons that we can't get into, she came across as a bit robotic, like, you know, like a real politician. You know, if you're a politician for too long, you get kind of like very scientific about it. So her next to Trump, she kind of looked like the weirdo, even though he was saying crazy shit. Do you know what I mean? Because he would say the crazy shit and she wouldn't react.

Whereas, because Harris has all these facial reactions. Oh, that's interesting. And she's responded to him like when he did the cats and dogs stuff. She was like looking around like, is he for real? Oh, that is interesting. Because she was so like human and seemed less seasoned next to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He seemed even crazier. There were moments when I was like, is she going to slap him? No, she's not going to slap him. She's going to say the right thing. But it was just like, she was us. You know, because she was reacting to him how you would when you hear like a crazy man in a bar. Like, what are you saying? Oh, yes.

Yeah, I'll pitch you this real quick. She looked at Trump the way Trump looked at Biden in the last debate.

Like, when I tell you, because remember that moment? Yeah, I remember that moment. He said, you know what it was? It was the line when Biden went, he started in one place and ended in a completely different zip code. And then Trump said, if I remember correctly, he was like, I don't know what he said. I don't think he knows what he said. He was so honest in that moment. He was like, I don't know what he just said. And to be honest, he was almost like, should you not throw the towel in? What is happening right now?

And you're right. Kamala Harris looked at him the same way. Because there was one moment where I don't know if she was concerned about being president or anything. I think she was like, y'all, this is elder abuse. If we just let if we don't address because I know y'all y'all muted my mic, so I can't say anything. But like somebody get him the concern. There were jittering moments of concern.

Tressie, it is so good having you back with us. Thank you for joining us. For what I hope will be the antitheses and the antidote to everything else we spoke about and experienced. So let me start by asking you this. Has your, not your worldview, but has your opinion on where the race stands or where America stands changed after watching Donald Trump debate Kamala Harris? Okay, maybe, yes.

Oh, I like this. I'll take maybe from you any day. I know because I'm cautious. You know how cautious I am about this. I'm always scared to be hopeful about Americans. We're interesting. We're interesting people. And so it's scary for me. Every second. Said so casually. I don't have hope about Americans. It is. You know,

I think that I feel a little bit more confident. One, I feel very confident about the Harris machine, which feels good. We talked a little bit about this, that her team around her seems to have changed. I went into this debate wanting to see not just that they had prepared her, but that she understood where the electorate was and that she had a message for that.

And that they weren't still going to be beta testing messages, that the internal polling was consistent, they understood what she needed to do, and that she was ready to do it. And I wanted her to show people she could win. Listen, I keep saying all people want at this point, the people who are likely to vote, like there's a huge swath of people out there aren't paying attention, don't care, whatever. But the people who can be moved to vote, who might vote for a Kamala Harris, wanted to see some of what they saw in that debate.

They want someone who isn't afraid of Donald Trump big time. And they want someone who makes him look as crazy as they feel he is. There's this disconnect right now where he clearly is crazy to people who are paying attention. But if you go out there, you know, in the rest of the world and you brush up against other people who don't seem terrified of him, you can start to question if you're losing your mind.

And so seeing her react to him as if he doesn't make sense, seeing her draw out the ways that he doesn't make sense, I just think that feels good to Americans. Like, okay, not only am I not crazy, someone who seems capable sees it too, and they are willing to go toe-to-toe with him when it matters. Right, right. Well, here's the main things I wanted to chat about. One was

What do we think Kamala Harris did right? And why did it feel like it was more right than anyone who has debated Donald Trump before? And then obviously, we have to talk about Donald Trump. And you heard my question to Josh and Christiana. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I feel like he's gone deeper into his own rabbit hole.

I also wanted to talk about the debate as a format and as a concept. And then, you know, at the end of it all, just talking about like where we see America going from this. But let's stick with Kamala. Like, I don't know about everybody else. I do not remember a single time when, especially Donald Trump, was involved in a debate and even conservatives, even MAGA people were saying,

oh no, this man got his ass handed to him. And they're not saying it like he lost. They're saying it like, oh, we heard that Kamala got the questions before the debate. How did she have her answers ready? Which, by the way, showed me how little people now expect from their politicians, that people were shocked. People were shocked that Kamala Harris could possibly lose

Do enough homework to know what they would possibly ask her before which is what you're supposed to know It's the issues and then there's a conspiracy theory going around and if you've seen this where they're saying her earrings are actually secret listening devices and people were Broadcasting someone was talking to her in her ear while she was speaking which I'm gonna tell you as somebody who does live TV

If that's the case, that's another reason that she should be president. Because if you can deliver a message while people are speaking into your ear at the same time, you're the emperor of multitasking. So they said that. They said she cheated. They said a whole bunch of things. But the underlying thought, even in Magaland, was, yeah, our dude lost, which I've never seen them say before.

I got in a lot of trouble, which is going to surprise you. I know, Trevor. I got in a lot of trouble a couple of days before the debate because I said I felt the start, not the pinnacle, the start of the Trump bubble losing air. I thought that even conservative media, right?

were open to considering that he was not Teflon Don, right? That he had some vulnerabilities. And nothing about what I saw during the debate changed my mind. Again, he's not dead in the water. He's still polling competitively. I get all of that. I just mean he does not seem as undeniable

as he once seemed. And I think that, and I'm not getting that from liberal progressive voters who have long hoped for that to be true. I was getting that from my read of conservative commentators, both in traditional media and online and social media where, you know, the joke he stopped,

being the comedian and he is starting to become the punchline, which I realize who I just said that to. But listen. Yeah, get him. Get him. Just thought about what I said. But yeah, he's shifting from being the person who is controlling the circus to becoming the punchline. For him to now be the punchline really does make him look diminished in a way. Do you think that was something that

Kamala Harris is uniquely positioned to take advantage of because there's no denying, like if we talk about Hillary and let's even forget Hillary for a moment, look at every Republican that Donald Trump beat in his own debates to get where he got to. Like, is there something...

That makes you uniquely positioned to beat Trump in a debate if you are a black person and you've lived with black people in any way, shape or form. Do you know what I mean? Like black people aren't as shook by Trump as white people are. Let's just put it out there. Yeah. Yeah. Because because we've also been roasted before, like in life. Like there are things that would be tantamount to bullying that have come from family.

Yeah, I mean, and then you send a person out in the world that has none of those experiences and they're like, wait, he is he allowed to talk to me like this? Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. Immediately after the debate, I watched Fox. I wanted to see what Hannity and his friends were saying. And he had J.D. Vance on. And then he also had Rubio and Cruz. They were the surrogates that were out for Trump. And something I noticed is that they kept

speaking about points that she had rebutted in the debate. So they were like, she's going to ban fracking in Pennsylvania and she's going to defund the police. And to me, these sound like things that Republicans were afraid about four years ago. Like, I can't even remember

I can't even remember the last time I met an abolitionist who said defund the police. Like it's such an old slope. Like the conversation isn't even there. Yeah. And then I was like, the issue is they don't know how to attack her. Yeah. It's insane. Because to her credit.

when we were accusing her of being the vice president who did nothing, the great thing is like, you can pin nothing to her. Okay. So they were like, we can't say the black thing. Cause that's not polling. Well, let's not talk about her being mixed race because our white dudes at home with Asian and black wives. Oh, wow. That's funny. Right. So they're like, okay, we're not going to do that.

What has she done? We don't know what she's done. Okay, defund the police and fracking. And what was hard about that is that that woman just went up there and was like, I have a gun and I'm pro-Israel. So it's like, it doesn't, it didn't line up with reality. Like when she said she had a gun, I was very shocked. I was like, well, this is a scary woman. And I say that as a Brit. Yeah.

Yeah, but you also say that as someone who does want a gun. I know. Listen, a woman that does get a gun has my full respect because she actually acted out on the impulse. And she has a gun. She has a gun. She was like, me and Tim are gun owners. And there were like these sharp turns in it where I was like, oh, their big problem is that she's probably more of a conservative than Trump is at her core.

Right. There. If you look at that's an interesting one. I was like, this is a Republican light. She'd never be with them because the parties aren't as good and they're not as good looking. But oh, this is an interesting take. This is not a real Democrat. Like the more she like. And I think it was like the Israel-Palestinian was an amazing moment. Yeah. Yes. With the way she described that. She didn't describe that in particularly progressive ways.

terms and it would be actually quite hawkish by even democrat standards so when she spoke about that when she caught about gun ownership when she celebrated being a prosecutor like she wasn't hiding mine she was like yeah i lock people up and you're like i'm sorry what then i was like trump that's your problem you're actually running against another conservative and what and she's black and indian what do you do with that i wouldn't know what to do personally

I mean, all you can do is bring up old talking points and call her a jive turkey. All right. I think Christiana is onto something here. Not only did she give these hawkish responses, they were her best answers.

They were her best answers. Her response to Ukraine, her response to the Israel-Palestine question, if you are agnostic on what she actually said. I mean, they were the ones where she was the most eloquent. She was the most emotive, really. Like, I expected her to be emotive on the abortion question, and she reaches for that a bit. But it doesn't feel nearly as natural as when she says, I own a gun and I arrest people. Like, that's who she is.

And I think that's who she feels like she is in the world. And when you say that next to someone who has only been pretending to be a cowboy, Donald Trump doesn't own a gun. Trump is afraid of guns. I don't know if you've ever seen Donald Trump talk about guns. He's terrified. He's afraid of guns. Yeah, he's terrified. He talks about his sons hunting and he talks about them.

as if he has sent anonymous tips to the police about his own sons. Yeah, yeah. That's how Trump talks about his sons. He'd be like, my sons, they do a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting, and they know everything about guns. Sometimes it worries me. It worries me a little bit. They got a lot of guns, a lot of guns. I don't know about that. And you see that even he's going like, what are you guys doing? We're billionaires, and you're running around with guns.

But that, so that's an interesting point. You're basically saying, the both of you are saying, that one of the things Kamala Harris might have done right in this debate was sort of outflank Trump

In his own backyard. Yeah, I think where she happens to have policy that is both fitting to like Republicans and is like weirdly Democratic in a way and exploiting that I think is the best move you can do, because this this is the thing that is like undeniably correct.

in a way that is going to sound weird. But when Kamala Harris says, I have a gun and I'm a prosecutor, I don't care what you think, I'll shoot you and lock you up. That's... That already is like so wild that you're like, yo, I'm kind of on board. Even as someone who doesn't have a gun and is someone who doesn't love the justice system, I'm still like, damn, she gonna shoot you and lock you up? You gonna get got.

Right. And I think I think there's the other thing that that what I like about what she's doing and what she did in that debate, I think is very smart. That is something that I hope more Democrats do when when the time comes in their own races is that there are things that optically Democrats, especially liberals, don't like. Right. Like don't like the police, don't like justice or stuff like that. Right. But my thing and I've been saying this for a while, I've been saying this ever since she

basically became the nominee, I was like, y'all, I know you don't like the police, but you don't like the way that beat cops treat people. You like the police because when Donald Trump got indicted, when he got charged, when he got found guilty on 34 counts, didn't y'all celebrate how you do that without a justice system?

Who can do that but a prosecutor? So it's like you do like it sometimes. It's just that powerful, evil people get held accountable so rarely that we don't get to celebrate the way that other people do who who like when poor people get beat up, if that makes sense. That makes that makes complete sense. And and I mean, yeah, this is I felt that. But I won't lie. You've given me.

And I think you've given everyone listening a new way to think about it. And that is the thing, the secret weapon that Kamala Harris had

over Donald Trump was that she may be more conservative than he is in real life. You know what I mean? Like Trump is a red in the streets, but a blue in the sheets. You know what I mean? Three baby mamas. He's basically a rapper. He's a trap rapper, yeah. Beyond gold toilets. Him and Young Thug have the same... Gold toilets. Him and Young Thug have the same... They really do. They do. Yeah, he's just...

In the same district. In terms of how we actually live, right? Whereas like Harrison,

her life is quite conservative, like no child, like the things you stereotypically associate with a woman of color of her age. She has none of that. And what was interesting to me was watch her pull the Democratic Party, I felt, felt to the right. I don't think it, I think it's already a centrist party, but she pulled it more to the right, even on things like immigration. And I was like, oh, she clearly doesn't care to really pander to the left. Like, I think that they have

for the last few years, especially on issues of identity, police reform, et cetera, et cetera. There was no talk of that. Instead, it was kind of like this rainbow nation where we give you a chance to have a down payment on a house and you work hard and you get your health care. That was the message, which is like conservatism.

Do you know what I mean? If you work hard and you behave well, we'll help you out, right? It's like conservatism. And it was interesting for me to watch because I'm like, she clearly doesn't believe there are votes to be accumulated on the left at all. I think she's made the calculation that these people are never going to like me because...

I will shoot you and prosecute you. And I can't, there's no way I can change that record. However, there are independents that I can collect or people that went from Obama one year to Trump the other, who came back to Biden, who may consider Harris if she plays our cards right. Well, before we get into Trump, let's do this. Let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, let's talk about the DJT ratings machine and how he is still able to leave everybody shocked watching his screen going, what the? This episode is brought to you by Atlassian.

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Learn how to unleash the potential of your team at Atlassian.com. This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. You know, there's something special about coffee, especially when it's from Starbucks. It's more than just a beverage because it helps me connect. Whether I'm catching up with friends or just taking a breather with Christiana, what do I love most? Well, it's the passion and the craft that they put into every cup.

You can taste the care in every sip, and trust me, that matters. For me, it's those connections over coffee that lead to some of the most interesting conversations, sparking some of the best ideas. It's a great day for coffee. It's a great day for Starbucks. Okay, so Kamala Harris comes into the debate. She shocks everybody because she says everything that they thought maybe like a Trump would say on stage. But even if you take away Kamala Harris's performance...

Donald Trump, for me, felt the way Joe Biden felt for Democrats when they were watching him debate Joe Biden. Do you know what I mean? It was that same feeling. Like, I put myself in the shoes of a MAGA supporter, and I was like, I would not want to be watching my guy experiencing this right now. You know, he seemed like he had it in the beginning, and then it was just...

He looks 78. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. He looks 78. And you know what? You cannot, as a 78-year-old man, when you've been refuted, say, I saw it on the television. At least say TV, sir. You got to say TV. Don't television sound like you in the past right now. Television is too long of a word for as dumb a thing as you just said. You have to say TV.

Let me ask you this. Do you think, and you know, this reminds me, you know, Josh, of our experience with fights. So, Tressie, like Josh loves fighting, like UFC, boxing, you name it. If people are getting punched, Josh Johnson's there. And one of the times you will see Josh's eyes light up the most is when there's a fight that's lined up where the person who was supposed to fight

can no longer fight. And so somebody new has jumped in at the last minute because they still have to have a fight because it brings with it like a wild card nature. Like Josh, you'd see Josh get so excited. He'd be like, he'd be like, ooh, we're going to, you're going to want to watch this one. He'd be like, the other guy, he doesn't know anything about him because the other guy was a striker. And this guy, he's going to choke you and you don't know what he's going to do with submissions. And nobody knows how this is going to turn out because he came out of nowhere. Right.

It feels like that here. It feels like he hasn't had any time to reconcile with the idea of going up against a black woman who was a prosecutor, who is Indian and is everything that he doesn't know how to speak to or engage with. From the moment he shook her hand, this man looked extremely uncomfortable. Like he looked like he had never shaken a black woman's hand.

I think Donald Trump identifies as someone who is good looking. I believe he looks at... I'm so glad this is not a visual medium right now. Please repeat that sentence. Please repeat that sentence. No, I think if you look at the history, he was the New York, blonde haired, blue eyed playboy with a lot of money. He was. This is the most eligible. If you look at all

Old articles about Donald Trump. Okay, okay. Eligible bachelor. Oh, yeah, no. Mega women still love him. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Women were like, this is a gorgeous guy. He's got money. He's got BDE, et cetera, et cetera. I think he's still, even though he's 78 years old, he still identifies primarily as somebody who is attractive.

And he looks at Kamala Harris and he's like, she's attractive too. We're like, we're the same type of person. With Hillary, he's like, never. With Biden, he's like, no, not as good looking as I am. With Kamala, he's like,

fourth wife, perhaps. You know, it's just like... I was going to say, she is the type of Black woman or the type of woman of color that if he had any exposure to them at all, which again, he does not, he would have given a pass. Absolutely. And she doesn't want his pass. I get where you're going, Christiana. So I think there's this tension of like...

we're the same type of people. Cause I'm telling you, this guy is not as like the political animal people make him out to be. He's like, are you rich or are you hot? Right. That's just, that's just the matrix. Okay. And so you've got this woman. Josh is having an attack. No, I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry. This is not to diminish all the other brilliant qualities that Kamala Harris has, but he primarily looks across and he sees this attractive woman insulting him. And the moment she said that people walk out of your rallies, it was done. He was so hurt. He wasn't angry. He was like, how dare... We're the same...

you're supposed to like me. How dare you? And the other thing about saying how many million people fired him. And I think it's just beyond all of her identity stuff. I think like on a really primordial level, he's like, this is a good looking woman who is not wowed by me. What do I do? And he can never overcome that. And that's why he hasn't come up with a good nickname for her. Yeah.

Oh, because he likes her. He likes her. That's why he was like, did you see the Time magazine cover? They made her look so beautiful. She looked like Melania. I was like, what? And I'm like, this is the land...

I don't know. I just think there's some I could be wrong, but I think there's something to that. I think you're right. Provocative. And I'm a double down on it and say Kamala Harris. One of her attributes is she's been beautiful her whole life. She knows how to handle someone like a Donald Trump in politics and in business. A man who expects her to engage with him in a certain way and to leverage that to her benefit.

She didn't wake up fine yesterday. She's been fine literally the whole life. And in fact, from both the left and the right during her political career,

Lots of men have gotten in trouble for commenting on, oh, Kamala, she beautiful. That was Barack, by the way. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Off the record says something about how she's the best looking attorney general that we've got. I mean, this has been part of her her story to power, which it would be for any beautiful woman. But, yeah, I can imagine it complicates it when she is a beautiful woman who is not supposed to be a beautiful woman to someone like Donald Trump.

and stares him down in a way that he probably finds a bit attractive. But he's also like, you're trying to take my job. I don't want to go to prison. You're going Freud-y in here. You're going deep Freud on this. I know. I could be wrong. You took us into like fan fiction. I love it.

Um, like, no, I mean, and I, and I mean, it's the politics of beauty. Yes. And I think that that is, no, but here's the thing, but here's the thing. Here's the thing. I'm not saying, I'm not saying this is, I'm not saying this is crazy at all. I'm just saying it has taken us down a hole of something that is, cause here's the thing. Were it not Donald Trump, I would be like, this is a very funny theory. Ha ha ha. Great. Thanks for entertaining us.

But there are a few things that could explain why he acted the way he did other than what you just said. So, for instance, did you see him at the 9-11 memorial? He did something that he almost never does. He was standing next to Mike Bloomberg, former New York City mayor, and Joe Biden is standing next to him, and Kamala Harris is standing next to him. And Trump...

says to Mike Bloomberg and, or to somebody else, he says, he like just, you can see it. He basically goes sort of like call Kamala. Like he, he like gestures towards her and he makes the first like move to greet her.

and somebody taps her and says, "Donald Trump is trying to," and then she turns and she's like, "Oh, hey, how you doing?" And she like comes over and she shakes his hand and he like, he lingers and he holds her hand and he tries to pull her in a little bit and she's got a grip like she was trained by every uncle in the hood who told them what to do when a man holds your hand. And she holds him firm, she doesn't let, but I have not seen Donald Trump on many occasions be the person who initiates a greeting or a contact

or be the person who lingers after that contact has been made. And now the idea that Donald Trump was on stage with a crush is one of my favorite theories I never thought I would walk away from after a debate. I'm not...

Josh, your mind right now. I'm telling you. Okay. No, no. Because this thing that Chris Yacht has done, now I'm thinking Trump just trying to win so that he can have a peaceful transfer of power so he can hopefully be alone with Kavla for a second. Just to be in the White House in a room with Kavla and then be like, hey, I'm sick of this. Everyone's asking, will they or won't they? Yeah.

Okay. For the record, Josh said that. Not me. Ebony and ivory together in perfect harmony. This is the moment when I pull my microphone. To Christiana's point, for real, as someone who has had their feelings hurt by many beautiful women, it's not just me.

It's a hard thing to come back from in real time. Like if you if you get roasted and you're like, guys, wait, we're you're supposed to be in it with me because remember, OK, this is this is a good example because Trevor, you point this out years ago. Do you remember whenever they got caught on that hot mic? It was it was Trudeau and it was Boris Johnson.

I think, making fun of Trump. And then he heard it. And Macron as well. He was a French. Yeah. And Macron. He was very hurt. And you could tell he was hurt for real. Because he didn't even... He was like personally hurt. He didn't even get nasty. That's how hurt he was. He didn't even get like, well, you know, Macron's like short and Boris is fat. No, he didn't. He didn't do any of that. He was like, oh, yeah, you know, I guess politics can be fake sometimes. Like it was...

He really was. He was hurt. And I think that, to Christiana's point, that hurt thing is like you have to get your get back in a way that's like

I need the other person to give me something now, which is why I have to keep engaging with them. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Because people have said horrific stuff against him in the debates when they were other Republicans and he just didn't care. Do you know what I mean? Like they would say stuff about him in general. Yeah, but that is the thing about Trump is from everything I've seen of him, he does not care about those he does not care about. And I

And I know that sounds like a simple statement, but he just does not care. Including his own family. If a magazine writes about Trump, yeah. If a magazine writes about Trump and Trump never read that magazine, it may as well not have been written.

But if a magazine that was at the pinnacle of its publishing successful empire comes out with something, and Trump, if he lived through the pinnacle of that magazine or that TV show or that idea, that is his life, Josh. And I think, I don't know. Here's another thing I honestly found myself asking myself about.

Is Trump getting crazier or was this the first time we saw somebody standing next to him who fully was able to display how far he's gone? Which one was it? You know?

Yeah, I don't think he's getting crazier, if I'm being honest. I think that to complete your analogy of what you said about me, Trevor, when it comes to a fighter stepping in on short notice, there's a young woman from Brazil named Natalia Silva who's very talented, and she is undefeated right now. But...

In her debut, in her UFC debut, she took it short notice just to get in, right? Yeah. And she showed up kicking. And the other girl doesn't know anything about her, so she doesn't know she kicks. So she's getting kicked. And she's like, this hurts. This is crazy, right?

And I think that I think that the kicks for Kamala were reacting to him, like you said, Trevor, the way that we react to him, because no one has done that before. He's been on stage with Republicans and he's been on stage with Democrats who tried to, like, keep it politics. And this was the first person who was like, what did you just say? Like there was a point where it seemed like she she she paused.

She paused as if she was allowing every single one of us at home to throw in the word that she was not saying. She paused at some point and she went, to know that this former president, and she paused for so long that you could do this bitch, this mother, she paused with so much intention. But I don't know. Okay, let's talk about the cats, the Haitian cats thing. The cats and dogs story.

This is what I find myself asking. I go, do you think Donald Trump actually believes that? Or do you think Donald Trump believes that people believe it? Or do you think he's only using it as a political tool? Because I don't know when I'm watching that clip. I've watched it again and again and again. I see what looks like belief in his eyes, but I can't tell if he just believes that people are saying it or if he actually believes that these Haitian immigrants are eating people's pets. I don't think he believes it with passion. I think that he believes it

I think he believes it, like you said, that people are saying it and as a political tool. I don't think that he saw that news and that rumor, which is just a Facebook rumor, and that he was like, oh, y'all, we have to take action. This is crazy. I think that he had, once again, the 78-year-old...

old man reaction of like, I'm never going to be over there, but I believe what you're saying about what's happening over there. He had a very Fox News reaction to it. The reason I think he believes, and I do think he's getting a little...

more unhinged is because for the past four years, he's just been stewing about this loss that he believes was stolen from him. Like everyone says it's like, oh, it's a conspiracy, but to him it's true. And that's the powerful thing about conspiracies. And I just think he's kind of been stewing

in his penthouse, wherever he is, scrolling on Truth Social with his Twitter burner. He's in the graveyards of TikTok and Instagram, all the weirdest places on the internet. And I think he does believe these things and he's getting stranger because I can't imagine Trump...

eight years ago saying that people are eating cats and dogs. I just... No, I can imagine him saying it. Can you? Can you trust me? Yeah, no, I can imagine. What I think has happened here is he is responding to the algorithm, whereas traditional politicians respond to polling. The algorithm is feeding him what he wants. But what used to be true is that it was also feeding people like him that same content. There

There aren't enough people now on Truth Social getting the same meme about eating pets. And he thinks they are because, you know, on your TikTok, you think everybody saw that same TikTok you saw.

Right. But if you go and you try to talk to someone in the real world about the demure, you know, being mindful, being demure, they have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry. That is a very popular TikTok on my TikTok. But it can. Oh, no, that's I think that's pretty. Is that breaking through? That's great to know. No, no, that's getting. But his are not the algorithm that's feeding him. Him information is coming through again. Nobody's on truth social that matters anymore.

his burner on Twitter wouldn't be tapped into the fire hose of ideas of Twitter. It is now in the, you know, in the echo chambers of Twitter. And so it feels real, but it would have felt more real to him

four years ago. He would have said something just as insane, but there would have been many more, I think, hundreds of thousands of people who would say, yeah, no, I'm getting the same message. Yeah, trust me, do you know what? The funny thing is I consider myself someone who's chronically online to the detriment of my mental health. But I had never heard that cats and dogs thing. Me either. I had to look it up, right? And I'm someone that's like on the internet as part of my job.

So then I'm like, he's just, he is in QAnon land so beyond, even those people are like, what are you talking about? And I think that is a sign that he's crazy. No, I think he got it. I think he got it from the first I saw it actually was JD Vance. So,

I've tried to trace it backwards from where I first saw it, but the first example of that that I've seen online is some neo-Nazi at a town hall meeting who starts this whole thing sort of publicly, and Facebook as well. But I think it was actually JD Vance. And I think we talk about Donald Trump and his missteps, et cetera, et cetera. I think the big thing we really take for granted this time around

is how stabilizing a force Mike Pence was in Donald Trump's life. Like, sort of to what you're saying, Tressie, is like, Mike Pence wasn't in conspiracy land. Mike Pence was just a staunch, conservative Christian man who believed that a woman's place was a woman's place and a man's place was a man's place and this was ordained by God and that's what was gonna happen. Like, I think that J.D. Vance is part of like a little bubble that's not helping Donald Trump stay on track

Because J.D. Vance has been saying the thing about Haitians eating cats and dogs. And Mike Pence, you find, wouldn't have said that. Mike Pence would have probably been like, this is not true or this is a scam. But what he would have gone to is he would have said to Trump, yeah, the real issue is immigration as a whole.

Like, don't don't get bogged down in the cats and the dogs of the Haitians in Ohio. And no, just focus on immigration. Talk about the country. And and I think that now Trump has created a world that is only full of people who are in his tweet mentions and replies. Yeah, I think he doesn't have anybody saying to him, no, don't say that one.

Exactly. I think maybe the worst thing that Trump has done is get closer to his son.

I think that like... You've got to be specific about which one. Okay. Because I think you're saying Don Jr. Yes, I'm saying Don Jr. Okay. Because Don Jr. is apparently why he picked J.D. Vance. And J.D. Vance is like feeding him the most like actually humorless, least charismatic takes and information. Because this is my thing. If you...

Take away the cats and dogs thing for a second. If you're trying to get that point across, there are probably other stories you can twist that you have verifiable proof happened. This is a weird thing to bring to someone because it's insanity, right? And so to have it brought to you and then to have it seconded by someone who's also like...

too online and too weird in his own way. And then you repeat it and then they leave you out to dry because they back you up on it, but they leave you out to dry because they're the ones that have to face the actual interviews in a way. So then when Collins is talking to J.D. Vance, it's like those are rougher interviews than people realize because you open yourself up to some pretty

bad reasoning and dark stuff against you when you say that you want evidence that there's no evidence. Because we don't have any evidence that there's no evidence with stuff that you may have done or not done. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, right, right. And so I think that JD and Don Jr. have also taken him to a place to look crazier because he's a gullible person that believes stuff and he's believing crazier stuff. I just don't know if he's actually...

But I think I fully agree with what Tressie is saying about how he used to have his finger on the pulse. And you'll see, like with a lot of content creators, because at the end of the day, that's what he is. Yes, Josh. Like a lot of content creators...

You'll see when they don't have the people anymore. That's when they go off the deep end. Yeah. You know, like that's like that's exactly right. I stopped getting the views and all of a sudden I'm in the woods like I'm just. So one of the things about J.D. Vance is that he's not only weird. I just want to put that he's not only weird. I my sense of him and I feel strongly about this. He is not on Trump's team.

He's not Trump's guy. He's not there for... Wait, what do you mean when you say that? I think Josh is right. He's Don Jr.'s guy. I don't think he is there to make Trump better. I don't think he is there to moderate Trump. I don't think he is there... I don't think he cares really if Trump wins. J.D. Vance is Don's pick, and he is there for J.D. Vance in a way that Mike Pence...

Not because he loved Donald Trump, but because he was a traditionalist.

If I am the VP, this is what a VP does. I believe in order. I believe in hierarchy. Right. So I will toe the line. J.D. Vance is not towing anyone's line because J.D. Vance is there to be the more sensible sounding Trump eventually. He is interviewing for the top job while pretending to support Trump. So not only is I think he weird and probably feeding him some of the weirdest stuff, he has no impulse to make Trump sound better.

Yeah, like he's I think he wants to make it. He wants Trump to win, obviously, because he's on the ticket. But I think that J.D. Vance wants to get into the White House with Trump the way that you want to make a flight just barely like you. You want to slide in there because if Trump barely wins.

But then J.D. can now rise up or start to make him look crazy while he's president. I think he tried to House of Cards Game of Thrones, but he's not going to say this reminds me of everything I know about succession. Right. He's some you know, like he's a family plant to make the patriarch think he's losing his mind and to help facilitate this downfall. Not that I think Don Jr. is that coordinated, but I think J.D. Vance is that much of a savage. We'll be right back after this.

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Go to ShipStation.com and use code Trevor to sign up for your free 60-day trial. That's ShipStation.com, code Trevor. The thing that I found myself coming back to for this debate in particular was it felt like Trump fell into every trap that Kamala set for him. We all knew about the trap coming in.

We all knew. I mean, they even talked about it on Fox News. Some of the Fox News commentators were saying, you know, the main thing Donald Trump has to do is make sure he doesn't say anything sexist and nothing racist, even if they bait him. Don't say it, which I don't know why. I found that hilarious. I was like, the fact that you are out saying publicly that he shouldn't fall for it, he shouldn't say something racist. I'm like, but why would he? But anyway, and then he went into these rants. I mean...

He went into like the solar panels rant. He went back into Is She Black? Like I read it. It was something I read. And then it got to a point where, to your point, Tressie, you know, where he went from being the person making the jokes of the punchline. When he's out there taking the illegal aliens who are in prison and they're making them transgender. Yeah.

Even the most conservative right person, unless you are deep in like, you now have to ask yourself a question. You have to be like, wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry, what did you say? Yeah. They are now taking illegal aliens and making them transgenic. Like now your theories are in your own theories about what's, do you know what I mean? When I watched it yesterday, something I realized is that

along with the JD advances, he has a lot of ultra right wing people in his corner and they are the ones doing the prep for the debate. Hence the conspiracies he was spewing. And what I realized, I was like, you know, we've had these very public endorsements from like Dick Cheney, which to me is a red flag. You'd be like, why is Cheney endorsing Kamala Harris? But that's my, that's my own kind of, like you're getting all of these very traditional Republicans coming out and saying, yeah, we are here for Harris. Right.

And Mitch McConnell is nowhere to be found. Like all of these people that we know are operators and they kind of sanitize Trump the last time they were like, okay, we're going to get behind him because we need the Supreme court to pick. Like we hate this guy, but we're going to fix him and make him look somewhat palatable. Right. And they did a good enough job of that to get him elected president. And then last time they were like, well, we've got what we want from him. We're going to abandon him.

And I think when I saw him yesterday and he was saying like these really wacky conspiracies, I was like, oh, he's been abandoned by the right wing establishment. That was all I felt. I felt the people that coached him and prepped him before were able to sanitize him and were able for him to say like, you guys feel broker. The economy is terrible.

Right? Because it was like, he was able to resonate like the message about Mexicans. They clearly knew there was enough sentiment out there that if you're anti-Mexican, you can get away with it. But most people were like, Haitians? Who the hell are they? Outside of Black people. People were like, you don't, you were trying to get us to have an enemy that we're not even familiar enough

with Haiti in the psychic imagination of Americans to be like, we consider them an enemy. Right. And so when I watched him yesterday, I was just like, it's interesting. You know, they talk about the deep, he talks about the deep state, but I'm like, well, the deep state have clearly said, we're not helping you this time. That's what it felt like for me. And that's why I think he fell into all of these traps because before they would have said to him, just talk about the economy, talk about how high the interest rate is, talk about the fact, I should work for him, talk about the fact

this is how much it costs to put gas in your tank. You know what I mean? Talk about the fact that like, even with the affirmative action ruling, you still can't get your kid into the college that they want. Those are the things that are going to get people riled up. And he, for me, he didn't touch any of that, but Tressie, I don't know how you feel. He misdiagnosed the enemy because his information is both dated and again, extremely insular. And I cannot agree more about the deep state having abandoned him because he

Trump's main power has been he was a very useful and willing idiot. He was very useful for a strategy that had been in play for 30, 35 years. This is a strategy that they had been executing ever since Ronald Reagan. He was willing to take it the final step because he has no actual real political career to defend. It's, frankly, too self-centered to care about his legacy, the traditional things that a politician would care about. So he's useful for their purpose.

He is not only less useful now because they've got the Supreme Court, they've got a ridiculous amount of gerrymandering, right? You don't really need them. But I want to add something else. They were terrified by January 6th. The deep state relies on the state. Hmm.

They do not want any, you know who they hate? They hate those people who showed up dressed like Vikings looking ridiculous. They hate those people. They use them, right? They court them for votes. But the fact that they came to their front lawn and were looking them in their face, they hate it. They never want to interact.

with that person. They don't want to interact with the Trump voter. They just want the Trump voter to vote for them. And so his willingness to invite them into that inner, to invite his crazy followers into that inner circle terrifies, I think, the people who had been helping to shape him and make him more palatable. And he's less useful to them. They don't really need him. And so abandoning them not only becomes easy, it now becomes self-interested to do it.

Yeah, you got to do it. If you have things and people start breaking things and these are broke people, by the way, a lot of these people are broke. A lot of these people spent the last of the money that they had to get to Washington to do this thing. You're like, hey, hey, no, not when the poors are breaking stuff.

No, thank you. Right. And so you as a you as an elite, you're like, what elite is there? If y'all ruin. There were people that climbed the wall next to the stairs. I can't be around these people.

The stairs were right there. And look, look, I'm all for I really am. I'm one of those people that if you bring me a bad enough policy or or a corrupt enough government, I'm one of those shut it down. Let's see. Like we may have to restart whatever. Right. But if we storming and you are climbing next to the stairs, I'm turning around. I don't care what our cause is.

You could be right, but I got to go. I can't just be out here and you climbing next to the stairs and I'm on the stairs and we going to do the same amount of jail time. That's a good point. That's a very good point, Sean. Oh, man. Oh, Josh. The idea that this all turned for Trump when they started climbing that wall. Oh, we're going to wrap up soon. But I think there are two ideas I just want us to chat about. So,

The debate happened. It may be the only debate because Donald Trump has come out and basically said he doesn't want to fight Kamala Harris again because he beat her so badly. He used boxing Josh as an analogy. He said she was terrible and he absolutely destroyed her and he doesn't think it would be fair to go up against her again. So this may be the only debate. And you know, Tressie, I mean, you spend so much time analyzing the mind and people and society and

Let me ask you this question. What do you think a debate is supposed to be and what do you think it is? So the debate has morphed into the ultimate political theater. I think it makes us feel like we have more direct participation and control in the political process than we have.

So the idea that I, an informed voter, I like the idea of myself as being an informed citizen, right? This is us taking the class, right? This is us taking election 101. We sit down, we listen to the professors, and it feeds into our sense that we make informed decisions, right? We are the informed voters. The people who don't pay attention, they are the bad voters. They're doing it the wrong way.

And that's a really seductive way to feel when the actual electoral process has become way more hostile to voters mattering to the process. Right. One of the reasons why Donald Trump is still so competitive is just that he's a Republican and the process is set up for a Republican nominee to be competitive. You could.

literally put Curious George up as one of the major party candidates, and he's got a poll pretty well. So this is a two-party system with an electoral college process that means that the individual voter does not matter quite as much as we like to think that we do. It matters to turnout, it matters to enthusiasm, that kind of thing. But the structure is really, really fixed right now. And the debate makes us feel empowered.

Makes us feel like we have some say. That's what it does, what we think it does anyway. I think what it has turned into in our media moment is a little distinct. It has lost, I think, actually some of its ability to compel attention.

We watch it. It's our jobs to watch it. We love this stuff, right? I went outside the night of the convention and I live in a pretty literate part of the country where, again, people like to think of themselves as deeply informed voters. And yes, some people were watching it, but there were lots of people walking up and down the street watching the debate on the televisions in the bars going, wait, was there a debate tonight?

And I think that is just as likely as the informed voter concept. And so I think it has lost some of its appeal as like political entertainment, which is why the people who do the horse race political punditry are so obsessed with it. It's kind of one of the last things we as a media class do.

have where we all have to convene and we all have to pay attention. But my sense is that it's power with the general audience is waning. But it is still important, I think, for making us feel like we are participating. And it is important for a candidate like Kamala Harris, who is potentially transformative and unique.

to go out there before whatever public is watching to say, "I'm sane, I'm reasonable, and I can do this job." I think it matters to that type of candidate. Yeah. Look, I'm happy that Kamala Harris got the shot.

You know, in the world of fighting, you can only win the fights that you're given. You know, I will always be grateful to Donald Trump for giving her the opportunity to step into the ring with him. Because otherwise we wouldn't have gotten this. People wouldn't have gotten the experience. When she came out and shook his hand and said, I'm Kamala Harris, it was such a slick move because it felt like it wasn't about him. It was introducing herself to us, to everyone out there.

And I don't know, it felt like we are one step closer to seeing something that people thought would be impossible just like three months ago.

I won't make the mistake of asking you where you think this is going to go, Tressie, because I know what you say and I know how your brain thinks about this. But yeah, I'm going to say thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us after the debate. Thank you for watching it with us. And yeah, you've given me a lot to think about. I'll think about politics again differently. I'll think about the debate differently. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Tressie. Thank you.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?