Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Oh, God. Yeah. It's behind the bastards. The only podcast that just made you reconsider listening to this podcast because that's not an appropriate sound to make for a bunch of people driving to work. Cody and I are truly gardening with their kids in the yard. You know, I apologize for that. We're not going to go back. You can't edit audio. You know, it's impossible.
You know if if that dream were real if you could by God we would change this podcast Oh my god, if only there's we there's so many things would be different if we could edit audio and video What's exciting Robert is that we may or may not release video at some point at an undisclosed time Maybe maybe not allegedly who knows will be we can edit that finally mm-hmm listeners will get to see Cody and I make faces and
Maybe that were... Maybe. Maybe we'll include those. Just some honest reactions. I thoroughly enjoyed Cody's face, is what I'm saying. Yeah. Or maybe we'll all get to... I don't want to make any of those jokes. Let's move on. Cody!
How are we feeling about Bobby Kennedy, you know, as we roll into part two? Right now, he's not a bad guy, you know? My feeling is that he never had a chance. Yeah, right. That is...
The bastardry here is primarily not because, again, he is admitted to sexually basically admitted to sexually assaulting people. So I'm not trying to whitewash RFK Jr. either. But like the primary bastard of the story is the concept of the Kennedy dynasty and what it does to these kids. Yeah. Not good. Not good. Never had a chance. Really bad. Yeah.
Really bad. Just the – it's like if you – it's like scientists in a lab were trying to cook up the worst way to raise people. I just watched the movie They Cloned Tyrone, which is – I don't want to like spoil it for you, but excellent, excellent. Really, really good movie. It looked really cool. Yeah. Really, really good movie.
And the Kennedys kind of feel like the reverse of that premise. If instead of, you know, I don't know how to say this, but going too bad. But it's like somebody it's like a bunch of creepy scientists were trying to, like, design a ruling dynasty in a lab and just completely fucked up at it. You know, like the experiment did not work. Or like a more ambitious, like dog tooth. Yeah. I don't know. Let's just like raise our kids in the most like fucked up way possible. Yeah.
Yeah, I think about like those, those like, those fucking nerds who keep winding up in the media. Every like three months, the news will decide, let's have a little circus around these. Like, we have to have as many kids as possible because we're exceptionally smart people. And we've got to, we have a responsibility. And I hit my kids, but for science reasons, you know? And then you ask them for the science reasons and they're like, I saw a tiger do it once. And like, well, that's not science. Yeah, tigers hit their kids.
Man, what else? Do you, when they get sick, do you eat your young? Because I have seen a cat do that. I have seen it eat its own kitten because the kitten was ill. Are you doing that? Are you going to eat your sick kids so that predators don't smell them? You know? No, you're not doing that because we don't take parenting advice from tigers. Data points from tigers. Oh.
Oh, fuck. Those freaks. We're never going to... I mean, last episode, I kept wanting to bring them up because this is just that. We've got to have as many as possible. Our army is being created by us and through our children. All I hope... And again, this is the...
not to whitewash RFK Jr., but I actually walked away, very rare for me, but I walked away more sympathetic towards him than I was when I... Because it's just not, again, not that he doesn't have agency in the bad things he's done, but my God, how could this story have ended well? Well, yeah. I mean, it's the, you know, it's how you...
create empathy for like villains in stories like well if you know their backstory then you understand how they got that way it doesn't excuse their actions at that point but yeah you're like oh man
Yeah. Never had a chance. It honestly makes them scarier. I talk about the sympathetic young Hitler a lot, but another young Hitler story is when he was a young man living independently as a poor artist in Vienna. He was kept afloat by his dad's old government pension, which he gave up, which rendered him completely destitute because his sister had a kid and she needed the money more. You can find in the Hitler story a truly selfless act.
because he wasn't always destined to be fucking Hitler. And you kind of have to accept that with most of you. No one's destined to be Hitler. There's some five-year-olds out there torturing cats and stuff. Maybe those people, right? Maybe it happens occasionally, but that's not the story we're talking about today for sure. No, he loves animals, actually. Yeah, he loves them. He did maybe kill that endangered turtle, but you know.
Someone should have stopped him. That was the adults. And at this point, Sergeant Shriver shouldn't have let him steal an endangered turtle. Probably shouldn't have let him do that. Maybe that was the start. Maybe the start of it all. Just like, well, you know, your uncle just died. Sure. Abducted turtle. Take the turtle. Come on. There you go.
Africa's got plenty of them. Yeah. Speaking of things, Africa's got a lot of probably podcasts, cold opens. And this podcast cold open is done. It's time to warm it up. That's right. That's right. I just made that up. It wasn't a great Cody. It's good. Can I be in your band? If you send me that audio file, I will.
turn that into a hit yeah he's already a hit you can turn that into a hit along with that clip we found of rush limbaugh saying bust female vaginal walls cody that's a great one it's in the dr laura episodes you're gonna love it um really good stuff i won't really good actually love it really horrible thing to hear
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On the day his dad died, Bobby Jr. was at his boarding school, Georgetown Prep, which was run by Jesuits and had a reputation for being one of those places you sent rich boys to turn them into responsible members of the power elite. Bobby was sleeping in his dorm room when his dad was assassinated and was woken by one of the fathers or whatever. I don't know if it's a father or if it's like more of a monk type deal, but one of the Jesuits guys comes down and is like, hey,
A chartered car has come for you in the night. I'm not going to explain why, but you probably you're a Kennedy at this point. You probably can assume a bad thing happened. The pattern, the pattern is establishing itself. Yeah. So he is taken to the Kennedy compound at Hickory Hill. The whole experience is obviously his dad got shot to death. Right. That's traumatic. You know, there's no way for that not to be traumatic. Yeah.
Bobby and his siblings are ushered in to see their father before, like while he's still technically alive, but like, and that's like a hideous, I don't know. I don't know. I can't say that's the wrong thing to do. There's really not a wrong or a right thing. But like what condition, like how is he, is he, how responsive is he? Is that going to be more traumatic, but still seeing him at some point where he's technically alive? Does that help? I don't know. Everyone's different. What definitely does not help is that this whole period,
every moment of this where they're outside the compound and outside of that hospital room, they're surrounded by a press, right? To an extent that like, even today is probably pretty rare, right? Like the sheer degree of attention on them is, has to make this even harder to handle, right? Mm-hmm.
than just having your dad shot to death in public. They are subjected to a massive public show of mourning at the funeral of their dad. There's like a hobo march for RFK because he was such like, so beloved by so many like poor and struggling people, right? Like he really is. And again, you can, we can argue like how fair is it? There's some bad stuff he did, but like that, that love is real, you know, and that contributes to how RFK Jr. and his siblings are processing all of this.
Ethel Kennedy, Bobby's mom's kind of collapses after her husband gets murdered. And I have a lot of criticisms of Ethel. But like, again, you got 11 kids and your husband gets shot to death. Sure. I mean, yeah. What do you?
Yeah. Like, what are you going to do? Like, it's so easy to judge how people react to these sort of things. But what's the good reaction? It's not what she did, but I can't say that like I would have done better as Ethel, you know? Yeah. The big change, the biggest difference between how the Kennedy family as a unit reacts to JFK.
getting shot. I was gonna say JFK getting blown away, but how many more Billy Joel references are necessary in this episode? A few. Probably one more, but maybe not that one. Only one more, I don't know. But there's a big difference between how the family reacts to JFK getting killed and to RFK getting killed. Because when JFK gets killed, RFK is there, and he is there to remold the family around him and make them feel like, we still have a pretty bright future, we're gonna move forward. That's not there after he dies, right? Yeah.
Right. Teddy Kennedy is kind of the family patriarch at this point. And he tries. This is not Teddy will become a more capable and responsible person. He is not at this point. So we will talk about and like, you know, to a little bit of like, like, how could he be like, what what do you do here? Right. Like you have had to the two patriarchs of the family and like a two or three like.
Not two, but within very short, or it's like a four-year period, something like that. It's a very short period of time. Yeah, assassinated. Right, and at that point, you're like, are we all gonna get assassinated? If I'm Teddy, what I'm like, should we keep doing this? Should we maybe just enjoy being rich? Maybe we should recess the family plan? Seems like this might have been a really bad plan. What are we doing? Yeah, one of the Kennedy cousins, who's in the compound of the family, later recalled to Horowitz and Collier for their book,
It was so different from Jack's death. There had been a coming together. Uncle Bobby had seen to that. In a strange way, we'd felt even more like Kennedys than ever. Proud at what Jack had been, determined that our time would come again. But once Uncle Bobby died, there was just this sense of splitting apart. RFK Jr. was only an occasional presence at the Kennedy compound in Hickory Hill at that point. Ethel, one of the ways she reacts to RFK getting killed is she is kind of permanently angry at her sons.
Like forever. And in a way that's really hard to forgive. And that must have been devastating to them. The youngest children and girls were, according to Collier and Horowitz, immune to her temper. She's not shitty to her girls. She's not shitty to little kids. But she is really bad to Joe, Bobby Jr., and David. Right? Right.
Quote,
Later, Joe went into the yard and in a moment of tenderness took the hands of his younger brothers and sisters and began to sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic, their father's favorite song. Meanwhile, Ethel kept saying to Bobby Jr. and David, get out of here as if the house itself, with all the pictures of family triumphs, were a sanctuary they defiled with their presence. What you've got here is...
these kids are reacting to their uncle and dad getting shot these boys by acting out joe who's the oldest is like being kind of a bully he hits his younger siblings a lot you know he like tackles them he fights but like that's not abnormal it's not great it's certain something you you want to deal with that behavior you don't want to ignore it but like you're not a bad person as a 12 year old boy something like that because like that's how you react that's an indicator that
He's dealing with something and going through it. Not that like he needs to be like the target of your ire and, and your, like everything that you're feeling shouldn't be targeted at the, at these kids. And Ethel's only response is you're disgracing the family. Like how fucking dare you get the hell out of here. Right. That is her go-to parenting move for the boys. Yeah.
Bobby Jr. also acts out constantly and his particular style, he's less violent, but he seems to think the best way for him to get attention. And nobody's really got time to give attention to Bobby Jr., right? He has like servants and stuff. He gets like technically attention, but not from the people he needs it from, right? Yeah.
And he tries to get it by playing pranks. And he, this is- I was gonna say, that's what it sounds like he would do, yeah. Yeah, he's a pranker and he does one of these, he plays a prank at his dad's memorial. So there's a neighbor and friend of the family, Philip Kirby, who's like this rich kid who lives nearby. He's part of the memorial service for RFK. And he recalls like before it starts, the priest gives him a bell to ring during the liturgy. And the priest says like, I'll touch you in the shoulder when it's time for you to ring it, right? So you don't time it wrong.
And Bobby starts tapping him randomly during the services a bit. So he rings the bell when there's not supposed to be any kind of music or noise. And like Kirby, this is like the biggest funeral in national history, or at least since JFK. He is like weeping in tears because he has fucked this up. And he looks back and he sees RFK Jr. holding in laughter.
Because it's a very little kid thing to do. It is also on the mean side. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, if you're a kid, you're not going to really be able to grasp that it's mean. Not a moral actor in the same way. Right. But man, that sucks for that guy. Sorry, Phillip.
Oh, man. The pranks continued. A week after his dad's funeral, David Kennedy, the younger of the Kennedy, this generation of Kennedy brothers, has a birthday. This is obviously a fragile time for everybody. The first birthday for one of RFK's sons after his death. Bobby Jr. decides the right thing to do is to poison everybody. And I'm going to read a quote from biographer Jerry Oppenheimer here.
Bobby had spiked everyone's milk with a laxative, infuriated his mother demanded, just leave home. Get out of my life. Choice. I mean...
Things aren't going well. That is wild. It's very bad behavior to poison your family, you know? Yeah. There's certainly a punishment that's... We can always talk about what kind of punishment should parents do. You shouldn't get away with poisoning your family. You shouldn't get away with poisoning the family. But get out of my life. What a devastating thing to say to your child after his dad is dead. Yeah. Right at that point, it's like... I mean, just...
let me get into politics and wait a few years and I will like fucking, he is, these boys are all abandonment issues. The guy like that is, that is the Kennedy boys of this generation. Uh, soon after possibly to make up for the ruined party, Ethel flies the kids with Ted Kennedy. Cause again, he's, he's around a lot. He's kind of in the sometimes trying to be a father. He's also very young. He's a party boy. He is not mature enough to be, uh,
And really, it's kind of unreasonable to expect a man of that age to suddenly take on the duties of being the head of this family of kids who aren't yours, who belong to your murdered brother. That's a lot to ask of Ted. But he doesn't do a great job at it, right? He does seem to be trying very hard.
Ethel takes them all on this chartered boat ride, right? And during this chartered boat trip, Ethel's mood swung wildly and RFK Jr. is as usual pushing boundaries and fucking around with his siblings. Ethel grew furious at him and David and dragged them both below decks and beats them with a hairbrush.
This is the first time something like this has happened. I don't think she had been physically violent with them before. It is a really searing moment for RFK Jr. and for David. Yeah, they remember it. Of course they do. Yeah. And again, on Ethel's side of things, it's not good to do this. I might say that, yeah, you can't expect –
Any kind of perfectly rational behavior from a woman in the situation. But this has a horrible impact on her kids. That's beyond the pale. That's like not like. Yeah, the beating. I think we've crossed the line from just saying. Is that. So it wasn't. It was the first time. Was it the last time? Like it become a pattern after that? I don't think it's just like. Yeah, I don't get the impression that she is a present enough parent.
for there to have been much many patterns at all other than she repeatedly tells them to leave get out of here you're not welcome at home yeah that is the big pattern is her saying get out of here you are no longer welcome at the family compound you're no longer well like Bobby's gonna spend time like hiding out like camping and hiding and like outbuildings and stuff because he's not supposed to be there he spends a lot of his childhood just like living with other families who are kind of adjacent to the Kennedys yeah it's it's messed up right not
Not going to be good. Yeah. Yeah. Ethel only expresses more and more frustration with her kids after this. She exiles Bobby Jr. back to a private school, this time a new one, a place called Millbrook.
And Millbrook is, you watched Arrested Development, right? Obviously you did. You know how like fucking Buster is, he went to that school. He's a Milford man. Yeah, a Milford man. Neither seen nor heard. Milford is a parody of Millbrook, right? Because this is the place where like, not just the sons of the rich and famous are sent, but it's the sons that are having problems, right? You send them there to get disciplined and to get like straightened out, right? Yeah.
One teacher described it as, quote, a place where the rich and famous would tuck their children away, right? If you're wondering what that was a reference to, it's a reference to Millbrook. RFK Jr. is just one of what would become a long line of rich boys with behavioral problems whose parents didn't want to deal with them full time. And Millbrook is...
is also located very near the mansion where Timothy Leary kept all of his acid and his friends on acid. And drugs are not hard to come by for Millbrook kids. And it's this unique situation of people don't really know about drugs.
There's like a vague understanding of like maybe of marijuana, but even then that's not very visible. And like LSD is so fucking new. And so adults don't really know. They just notice like, wow, these kids are behaving really weird and they don't really notice that. Like, yeah, Bobby Kennedy is just always fucking on drugs now. Like from this point forward, he is always on drugs, you know? And it's funny because it seems like at this point, mostly it's pot.
Oppenheimer, because he's going to wind up addicted to heroin. Oppenheimer treats pot like heroin and his biography of Bobby where he's like, and he was getting every day. I was like, yeah, he's like 15, you know, like I know a lot, like half of the people I know, I'm not saying you should, you shouldn't do drugs until you're older kids. That's my opinion. Your brain developed and stuff and all that. Yeah.
going to say 90 plus percent of people who smoke pot when they're 16, 15, 17, like it's fine. You know, you'll be OK. You'll be OK. People generally are.
Bobby is not though. I will say that, but I don't know that I'm going to blame the drugs. I think the drugs are more a symptom of this kid's disastrous early life. Yeah. Being a Kennedy and having just lost his dad, none of the adults at Millbrook seem to have known how to handle him. Like how do we discipline this kid? We're kind of now marketing a lot on the fact that a Kennedy goes here. It's kind of a selling point to other rich families. So like,
There's no... He kind of comes and goes as he pleases, and he spends most of his free time getting fucked up or hunting small animals with his hawk, Morgan Le Fay. His primary hobby is taking acid and going hawking. Like, hunting with his hawk. So he got to bring his hawk. He does get to bring his hawk. His hawk is with him all the time.
all the time. It is always in the room. People who live with him as like roommates at these boarding schools say that there are just birds shitting everywhere all the time. Like if you are living with Bobby Kennedy, there is bird shit everywhere constantly because he is never far from his fucking birds. What a weird guy. He loves this. What a weird guy. During this period of time, there is one adult who is a consistent presence in RFK Jr.'s life. And it's a guy named Lim Billings. And, uh,
We will talk about Olim. But first, Cody, speaking of billings. Yeah. Get your billings from the companies that support our podcast by sending them your money. Yeah, I'm getting my money out right now. Yeah, limb those billings on over to them. You know, limb them out. Limit to win it. Anyway, we're done. Here's that.
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So, Lem Billings was a former New York ad executive who had been very deep friends. He's like JFK's oldest friend and like so close that Joe Kennedy, who is not like the most emotional man in the world, considers Lem basically part of the family.
right? He has a house or he has a room at the Kennedy compound, right? He's that close with the family. And he is also gay. He is in love with JFK. There are a lot of rumors that swirl around whether or not they had any kind of physical relationship. I don't actually think there's any evidence of it. It seems like the kind of thing that was not uncommon with a lot of particularly very prominent gay men back then were like,
I am in love with this person and my love takes the form since there's no kind of relationship that's possible. Maybe, you know, obviously they're probably not actually interested in reciprocating it that way.
But I become basically like their closest confidant. I'm always watching out for them. I'm the guy who is like a constant companion, constant buddy, buddy who? Yeah. Yeah. There's a movie I like to talk about a lot. If dot dot dot, which is the first Malcolm McDowell movie and the it's a movie that's not the imaginary friends movie from the twisted mind of John Krasinski. No.
That's called If as well. That's also called If. Much worse movie. This If is an absolutely like incredible piece of cinema that everyone should watch. It is about a British boarding school. It's one of my favorite films. And McDowell has said later that like, yeah, we didn't, of the director, I didn't know at the time that he was gay, but now I can see that he was and his way of like kind of making love to me was the way that he shot movies.
me right when he was filming me you know I think about that when I think of limb buildings right yeah yeah intense like attraction admiration but yeah you can't express it in the way you want to so you find yeah yeah like socially acceptable ways to do that exactly exactly and that's kind of limb and limb is obviously absolutely shattered by the JFK assassination right this destroys him as a person he starts drinking heavily he's never a really functional adult right after this point
Now, depending on who you read, opinions on Lim vary. Jerry Oppenheimer, who published the 2015 biography of RFK Jr., is incredibly homophobic. And he – I kept waiting for there to be like some evidence that Lim had abused RFK Jr. or done something really bad. But like he really just seems to want us to be shocked by the fact that Lim was gay and see that as inherently sinister. He also alleges that Lim enabled Bobby's drug use.
From what I have read in other sources, I kind of think it was the opposite. Lim is never fully functional after JFK dies. He becomes an alcoholic. And when RFK Jr. starts doing drugs, Lim, as the adult in the situation, doesn't stop him. And he should have. Does not attempt to limit his access to drugs at all. But he starts doing them. And I don't think he's...
pushing RFK Jr. I think he is just like, yeah, sure, why the fuck not, right? Right. Now, the fact that Lim is gay and in love with Jack, with JFK, shouldn't be totally dismissed though. Not because he abused Bobby, but because I think he may have put added pressure on him to follow his Uncle Jack. There's an allegation that I think probably does have legs...
that he is kind of trying to groom Bobby into being like JFK. And kind of for a sweet reason of he wants his dead best friend back. Right. You know? Like, it's a very... Yeah. Like the cloning thing. Right, right. It's got to exist again. Yeah, yeah. It's a very sad story, but not one that I think
I don't see him as like a villain. Now, obviously he's not the best influence to be the one adult in Bobby's life. Yeah. This seems unhealthy. Yeah. Best. Yeah. But it's unhealthy because everyone is just caught in this fucking poison matrix. That is the Kennedy family legacy. Right.
In the book After Camelot, Bobby told author Jay Randy Terrabarelli, quote, in many ways, Lim was a father to me and he was the best friend I will ever have. I have also read interviews with RFK Jr.'s brothers, I think with David, where David was like, yeah, I was kind of jealous of Bobby because like none of us had any male friends.
authority figure, any adults, male adults interested in us after dad died, right? He got limb and he was the only one
Right. As opposed to what Oppenheimer said of him being the sinister force that like, well, at least RFK Jr. had somebody had some right. Whether it's a role model or just some sort of guardian, some sort of guidance, some sort of. Yeah. And as a spoiler, David's story is going to end a lot faster and a lot worse than RFK Jr. stuff. So maybe Lim having something kept him from spinning out as much. I don't know.
Yeah.
Maybe we'll get you another turtle. Who knows? Yeah, get you another turtle. I've spent my time expressing issues with Oppenheimer's biography, but I do think his description of this trip, this second death safari, conveys how damn weird it was. With professional 35 millimeter cameras, Bobby and Billings documented their African adventure, which also included a rafting trip to Egypt's Valley of the Kings and oddly, a VIP visit to a nightclub to watch the gyrations of a bevy of belly dance
hosted by members of the Egyptian Supreme Court, an evening of salacious interest more to the hormonal adolescent than to his gay middle-aged sapperone. The safari photos became quite lucrative because at that time, in the wake of the latest Kennedy tragedy, anything a Camelot heir did became front-page media father. Aware of the demand, Billings brokered a deal with Life magazine for an interview about their adventure and for the photos. The questionable story was put out that young Bobby wanted to use the money to build a memorial to his father in the Serengeti National Park.
And yeah, the pictures sell for a lot of money. He gets to watch what sounds like almost a strip tease put on by the Egyptian Supreme Court. Yeah, like some sort of burlesque sort of situation. Just a baffling childhood. Yeah. Yeah. If you've met members of the Egyptian Supreme Court, you have an odd childhood. Yeah, it's just like this weird like Westerosi sort of like trip celebration moment.
Yeah. Like thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is very Game of Thrones in a lot of ways. Right. Yeah. So when they get back home from this very strange safari, Bobby continues doing shit loads of drugs and most consequentially introducing his brothers to drugs. And he does not limit himself to just dosing them.
One of the people who sold acid to Bobby was a neighbor kid, John Kelly, who recalled that Bobby fed doses of acid to his parakeet. He soon expanded to other drugs like mescaline, which he pushed his younger brother, David, to try. David was scared. David did not want to experiment with drugs, with psychedelics. You know, he certainly wasn't ready as soon as Bobby was. But Bobby basically like
bullies him kind of until he takes a shitload of mescaline. And David is a young boy, too young to be doing shitloads of mescaline, who has lost his dad and is traumatized. And that can make a trip. Now, he has a bad time of it. Right. And Kelly recalls that Bobby's
instinct seems to be to increase his younger, to fuck with his younger brother, right? So David hallucinates that Bobby's laying like, or standing up against like a bush or something and there's leaves pressing against him. And David hallucinates that the leaves are sharp and he's like, Bobby, get away, they'll cut you. And Bobby laughs and he plunges into the leaves and then pretends he's been impaled and fakes his own death.
And this prompts David to cry, you're dying just like daddy. Oh, God. Oh, boy. Oh, God. Oh, no. That's so bad. Oh, Bobby. That's like so bad. Like being on that drug and oh, he thought that was really happening. Mm-hmm.
Oh, that's- And guess which Kennedy is going to wind up dying of a drug overdose. That's such a fucked up prank. Yeah. Ding, ding, David. Yeah. God. Real bad stuff. Very bad behavior. Don't do that. To like lean into like- To people. To pretend that you are- Especially after your dad gets assassinated. Not just like, oh, I'll go to the leaves. But like to pretend that it- Oh my God, it's so fucked up. Yeah. One of the weird things- You know how America has kind of processed 9-11 eventually by making a shitload of 9-11 jokes? Yeah.
Yeah. Bobby and his generation of Kennedys process the assassinations by making a lot of dead Kennedy jokes. Yeah. Like more even more than the band, the dead Kennedys did. I don't know if they actually ever made jokes about it or it's just the name of the band. Anyway, the closest the Kennedys had to an heir apparent was Ted Kennedy, who is a senator who becomes a senator and is, you know, somebody do people do still think.
you know, in the wake of RFK's death, hey, he could be the president, you know, he's pretty good looking, smart. He's obviously starting to have success in politics. But within a year of RFK's demise, Ted is involved in the infamous Chappaquiddick incident, which fucking Republicans would not stop talking about. And it is a pretty bad situation. He is probably drunk. He drives off of a bridge. He abandons the crash afterwards and he abandons his 28-year-old passenger, Mary Jo Kopechny, who drowns, right?
You know, the best case scenario is that Ted is so drunk that he's not really aware of what he's doing. I guess some people will argue it was just an accident, but he leaves afterwards and he goes to sleep. And it's like it's bad. He does not. He does a bad thing. He does a bad thing. I will say. Yeah.
Now, this is again, like, I don't know how you want to, we're not going to dissect fucking Chappaquiddick. God, you can find so much of that if you really want to. What matters to us today is that it more or less punctures Ted's shot at the presidency, right? That is not really going to be in the cards. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of took the steam out of that. Yeah.
You could argue, and I think this is the strongest argument, that he is probably the best politician in terms of technical skill of any of his generation of the Kennedys, right? Some of this is just because he's alive long enough to really have a full political career. Yeah. But he's a very influential man in Congress. He winds up being kind of like arguably the most influential Democrat in Congress for a significant period of time.
And that's, you know, a lot for a family, for most people. But that is a far cry from the vision Joe Kennedy had for his family. And even further from the rosy image of Camelot perpetuated in the public memory. Talk about a Kennedy curse had been a thing for about as long as anyone in the family could remember. But once RFK died, it went from something that had been kind of a half joke sort of deal to something the upcoming generation felt deep within their bones as destiny.
Even Joe Kennedy, the man whose ambition had started this all, seemed to feel a sense of woe at what he now saw coming for his grandchildren. Chris Laufer, JFK's nephew, later claimed, "...sometimes Grandpa would look at us as if he wanted to say something. His mouth would move sort of convulsively, as if some words were trying to get out. Then this cloudy look would come over his eyes, and he'd slouch down into his wheelchair, and the attendant would wheel him off."
And that in the, that biography, maybe it was just, he, you know, he, he was stroking out. He couldn't communicate the way he used to. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of things. Maybe it's that he's like, maybe he regretted like, oh, I may have led my entire family to calamity. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Sorry for the pressure. Yes.
I, yeah, created for you that led to all of this. All of these terrible, terrible things. And he does, he lives, you know, it's one of those things like, I don't know if Joe Kennedy made a deal with the devil or some sort of like House of Usher-ass cosmic evil, right? To have his success and then have it all ripped away.
when his children die at the last moment of his life, but that's kind of what happens, right? He lives long enough to see Chappaquiddick and then he fucking drops right after that. Yeah. Yeah. He, uh, he made some sort of deal and, uh, it led to the curse. It led to the curse. Uh, part of it was you gotta kind of, you gotta watch, you gotta watch some of it, but then you're done. And he made, and look, he made some good calls, you know, making Mark Hamill, the family lawyer, great move.
House of Usher. Good show. Watch it. Oh, my God. It's an incredible Mark Hamill performance. Yeah? Yeah. Really good show. Really good show. Everyone else is playing essentially like a Poe character, and Mark Hamill is playing like a Lovecraft protagonist. Okay. It's quite good. It's quite good. That's interesting. All right. Okay. I enjoyed it a lot. So I will say you've got that one picture from the Collier and Horowitz book where Grandpa maybe started to regret some of his decisions. Yeah.
In his biography of RFK Jr., Oppenheimer also talks to a significant number of people who are around the family and in the family at this point, paints a darker picture of what Joe mostly tried to pass on to his grandchildren. His twin family mantras were Kennedy's don't cry and Kennedy's don't complain, which is
Whatever else, not going to help you process everything that's happened to them. If Kennedys do die, you might want those other two things to actually work through that. They might need to cry. Maybe some complaints are warranted. Yeah. But he does live long enough to see his blessings turn into curses. His three most prominent sons dead because Joe died a while ago. His remaining son disgraced and the vast entitled brood that he had helped create turned into a dynasty hurtling inevitably towards Jerusalem.
doom when he finally passed on November 18th, 1969. Bobby, by this point, seemed to show less inclination to follow his dad into politics and decidedly more of a bent to being a we might call like a
like a mild gangster, you know, like a kind of adorable child gangster because he has, in this period, formed a street gang, focused around, and it's a street gang made up entirely of Kennedys and their friends who are also very rich kids from this incredibly rich neighborhood where the family compound is located. They call themselves the Hyannis Port Terrors, the HPTs, as we'll call them. The Assumptions. The Assumptions. So Joe,
Bobby Kennedy's got a street gang. And initially it's just his older brother, Joe, who's 17. You know, he's 15 and his brother, David, who's 14. But a bunch of cousins and neighbors join in and they'll all dress in black and they'll paint their faces with grease. And first off, you know what? Kudos, guys, to painting, to being rich white kids who paint your faces with grease and aren't doing blackface. You know, they were just trying to hide in the night. They were so close. Yeah. It's like, well, you know, you're that.
We dodged. Kennedy families isn't great at dodging bullets, but they did dodge one. That one. Yeah. Thank goodness for that difference in motivation to have your face in Greece. God. Their motivation is they're doing petty violence. I imagine some of them were also doing it. They might have been. Might have been. Might have been. A little treat for them, you know, a little extra, a little bonus. I can't prove they weren't. Yeah, exactly. I can't prove a little Justin Trudeau energy wasn't present there, right? Some of them, surely. A skosh, a drop of it, a dollop.
Statistically. One former member of the Hyannisport Terrors later claimed to the author of the book After Camelot, quote, we'd shoot off firecrackers, deflate people's tires, stick potatoes in the exhaust pipes of cars, turn over trash cans, mess around with girls, all sorts of mischief. After we did our bit, Ethel would get called. I don't know what mess around with girls means in this context. In the context of like,
vandalism and violence? They could be making out with them. They could be stealing their underwear. There could be, there's a lot of mess around with a lot of room for that to be ugly. It's an odd item to include on that list. Yeah. Gang activities. If I'm the after Camelot author, I'm immediately be like, wait a second, wait a second. Let's, let's talk about the messing around. Just a few more words. Okay.
I'm going to continue the quote from this terror member. After we did our bit, Ethel would get calls from everyone in town complaining about it. At first, she used to say, my kids were home asleep last night. I don't know what you're talking about. But one night she waited up and sure enough, she caught me, Bobby and David jumping out of one of the second floor windows of her home. She chased us all over the compound in the middle of the night in her nightgown and bare feet, finally losing us somewhere on the stretch of beach.
Now, one of the real through lines in all these Kennedy kids stories is that the adults have very little power in these relationships. And it's not because they're afraid to discipline their kids. Sometimes when they're around, they discipline them very severely. It's that they're just not there, right? Mm-hmm.
And they're not there in large part because they have all of these as the Kennedys. They've got this constant web of social, political, business, fundraisers, all sorts of shit that they have to do because of who their family is. And they're also on vacation a lot. They're traveling. They don't always want their kids around, and they're able to not have their kids around, right? Half of the brood are away at boarding schools at any given time, and the kids at boarding schools have access to money and property.
Thus drugs, but not any real supervision. You know, maybe the monk who teaches English will take an interest in them. But like that's some random monk. He doesn't have a lot of power in this relationship either, you know? And at a certain point after like a lot of the reaction from like her specifically, I feel like it's just not going to be effective no matter what. Where it's like, okay, you're being this horrible person.
to your small children, we don't really care for that approval or have that sense of like, oh, we don't want to upset the adults. Right. Yeah. Fuck them. Now, another constant through line is, as I mentioned earlier, this sense of gallows humor that pervades the kids as a result of the cloud of death that seemed to hang over their family. And I think the most telling passage from this period comes from, I'm going to read a passage from the book After Camelot describing this.
That's...
When panicked people came to the aid of the young Kennedy sprawled in the middle of the road, the boys would milk it for all it was worth by trying to get the boy to move his legs and then saying it looked as if he'd been paralyzed. But then the fallen Kennedy would suddenly stand up and walk away. At that, the other boys would proclaim, look, it's a Kennedy miracle and then race off. Oh my God.
I got to say that kind of rules. That's exactly what you would do if you were a kid in the Kennedy and all that stuff. Of course. You killed another Kennedy is such a funny thing. It's incredibly funny. It's amazingly funny. Like horrific thing. The acid trip. What Bobby did. Horrific. Yeah, that's funny. That's really funny. That's just actually very good comedy.
You killed another Kennedy. I'll go so far as to say it, that might actually even be an example of healthy processing of all of this, right? You're taking, to some extent, you're taking some ownership of this terrible thing that happened to your family, right? And maybe that does help a little bit. And you're also very aware of the world's
like eyes on you and opinion of, and you're kind of taking agency as opposed to just being subjected to it. You're taking agency on it and like using it for your own laughter. Entertainment. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I kind of see it as the healthiest thing that anyone has done in this story. It's not the least, it's definitely towards the top in this story of like healthy reactions. Yeah. And again, just very good comedy. Um,
It's a Kennedy miracle. It's a Kennedy miracle. That's a good line.
Back at Millbrook, Bobby cultivated a, by this point, probably understandable, reputation for being out of control and very odd. Like any kid, he had folks who got along with him and people who thought he was a dick. You can find people being like, yeah, he was like the bully of the school. You can find people being like, yeah, he was like kind of a chill dude. He was a little bit of a loner and outsider. I'm not, I wasn't around, right? I'm just gonna say everyone does agree about one thing, which is that he was really specifically weird about
about his hawk and dead animals. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, his dorm smelled like bird shit. Yep. That was the thing everybody thought. Boy, Cody, it's about to get a lot weirder. But first, it's about to be ads. Oh, okay. Yay.
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deck, truck bed storage, toolboxes, and accessories. We're back. Cody, you had a follow-up question. What do you mean by his relationship with dead animals? Great question, Cody. Great question. So...
Let's go back to the undeniable reality that, I don't know, like a month or two, time flat circle right now, but it became public knowledge that RFK Jr., serious third-party presidential candidate with like a possibly historic chunk of the vote, certainly looked like that at that point in the election, had part of his brain eaten by a worm that got in there, presumably for some weird meat he ate, and then died after eating part of his brain, right? Yeah.
That's the claim. That's the claim. And the claim came out during divorce proceedings, right? And this is part of RFK trying to basically argue his alimony should be amended in light of his disability, right? And as a result of that aspect of it, I have seen people doubting, was he just lying? You know, maybe there was no worm. He was bullshitting like, and I'm going to say this.
A survey of his childhood makes me feel, yeah, that brain worm was probably real. Probably had it. This is the story that we're about to tell that makes me feel that way. So as an adult, one of the sources we have on Bobby's life is this book called The River Keepers, which he co-writes, I think. And it's related to he works for an environmental charity called The River Keepers.
And his book on that includes a deeply sanitized and kind of short version of his own backstory. And one of the things he talks about is his time at Millbrook that he spent with what he calls an informal falconry program.
And this is the very sanitized version of how that is falconry at Millbrook went. In the autumn, we captured and trained kestrels, red tails, and immature passage hawks on their first migration. I've caught upwards of 50 hawks a day squatting atop a ridge line on Shunamunk Mountain in the Hudson Valley in autumn. We flew wild red tails, falcons, and goshawks and pioneered many of the game hawking techniques still used by American falconers. We talked about hawks every spare moment.
So maybe that's all true. It can coexist with what I'm about to read next. But Jerry Oppenheimer, biographer, talks to one of Bobby's child falconry buddies who describes him very differently and in a much less camera friendly manner.
And this is his falconry buddy talking years later.
was not the way Beauregard, who is the kid telling the story, who later went on to teach ornithology at the University of North Carolina, remembered. To Beauregard, who was one of the leaders out of the falconry group at Millbrook, Bobby's pursuit of the sport was more like a scene out of a horror movie.
myself and a couple of others had our hawks and we'd go out in the countryside hunting rabbits and squirrels. But one of the reasons why I didn't spend much time with Bobby was his idea of falconry. Next to the school, there was a cow pit where the local dairy farmers threw their dead cows and it was full of rats. Bobby would take his hawk and go hunting rats in the midst of the rotting cow carcasses. And he sort of reveled in how off the wall that was. Now, Beauregard,
expressed disgust at Bobby for wanting to be in such a disgusting environment, wanting to go hunt rats in this rotting cow carcass graveyard rather than going to like a well-maintained chunk of the woods and doing the thing that you would assume is the pleasant part. Right, right.
And one gets the feeling, I think his disgust comes from, this is something Bobby did specifically to freak out preppier rich kids like Beauregard, right? You know, he is also a rich kid, but he is not preppy and he wants to kind of freak the normies. He's a little freak. He's also, no one goes to the rotting corpse pit because it's a rotting corpse pit. So he can get high there. He can do drugs. He can take acid. He can, he spends a lot of time hunting rats and taking acid at a like fucking, you know,
pit of bloated cow carcasses. That is a big chunk of Bobby Jr.'s childhood. And that's a little chunk of Bobby's brain that's going to go from that. Right? Yeah.
One of the kids who visited the pit with Bobby, mainly because Bobby had drugs and he wanted to score them, was the son of a Republican horse trainer, Jamie Fanning. And Jamie Fanning gives us this description of RFK Jr. and his late teens on the cusp of adulthood. And it is the most incredible description I have read of a subject for these episodes.
I still to this day see him standing there in his black necktie that he wore every day over a blue Oxford Brooks Brothers shirt and a beat up tweed jacket and wearing the wildest bell bottoms that were purple with day glow green stripes like he was some soul band guy and in his funky boots. And there he was hunting rats out of that pile of dead sheep and cow carcasses. Yeah, I bet his boots were funky. What an amazing, amazing paragraph.
Oh, cows and sheep. Cows and sheep. Yeah. Yeah. So debate in the sources was it just thousands of rotting cow carcasses? Were there sheep carcasses? Were there sheep involved? Either way, Bobby loves carcasses. Apparently he loves being around them. He really does. He seems to be comforted by death. So weird.
I don't know. And it's fanning. I think this description from fanning is the most accurate of some competing descriptions of child archetypes.
RFK Jr. because he's an edgy kid. He has been traumatized by some seriously dark shit. He has a deranged and unhealthy family life. He's got infinite money, but only one adult who cares about him and that adult is not doing it in the healthiest way. And he develops this edge. Maybe part of it is just like surrounding yourself with death, kind of like in the sense that maybe a goth would later because there's been so much in your life, but also some bits freaking out people is maybe the only way you know to get attention, right? Yeah.
Yeah, tension and keep people at a distance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Fanning would continue, he was such an edgy kid that that thing, the cow carcasses thing, as bizarre as it was to be over there hunting these rats out of this pile of dead carcasses, was almost normal for him. It was a pretty dark, grim time. He was miserable and he was angry. It only got worse with the drugs.
And we, most of the sources we have on early RFK life are self-serving in some nature, right? Everybody's got an agenda. These are the Kennedys, but I think fanning is probably got it right. Yeah. That, that is, that just feels like a person to me. Yeah. Like an actual, like an actual human being who's dealt with all these things we've talked about and like the little, the little stories of him growing up and like,
You know, like being a little fucker, right? A little piece of shit, right? Yeah. A little fucking asshole trying to cause trouble and then gets darker and darker and his humor is going to get darker and darker. His environment, he's going to want to be that. I don't know. Yeah. And the brain worm. And the brain worm. The brain worm doesn't help. Now...
Heroin, what also doesn't help Cody is heroin, which makes it way into his drug rotation. And look, we can talk about the potential benefits of psychedelics. I don't know anybody who's like improve their life problems unless those problems are just, I am dying of horrible pain with heroin. That's really the one thing it's good for. There's like, oh, I took mushrooms and like, I saw something today or yesterday of like 80% of people take mushrooms. Like they can quit smoking easily. And it's literally just because they're like,
"Oh, that's stupid." Like they have the thought of like, "I shouldn't do that." And they don't. - Yeah, it has intense potential, sure. - Yeah, like, "Oh, I took mushrooms, I stopped smoking." It's like, "Oh, I took heroin, I stopped smoking 'cause I died." - Yeah, I mean, heroin will help you in, again, one very, it's great as a painkiller, but that's only useful in certain situations. And Bobby- - Heroin's something you save to the end. - It's great as a painkiller, but it works very well as an emotional painkiller, but not in a way that helps the problem.
Right. If you actually if you have like you had your leg blown off by a mine. Yes. And heroin might be the right thing for you in the moment. Right. That's that's probably real good to get some heroin in there. If you are mourning your dad and your uncle and the collapse of your family and all of the pressure you're under, the fact that your mom doesn't love you, heroin is probably not going to help. Spotlight like all the everything. Yeah. Now, that said, despite the fact that he is now heroin is in the mix, it's pot.
that's gonna get Bobby in his first real trouble. He was arrested for the first time in Barnsdale, Massachusetts for marijuana possession at age 16. Now, one of the fun parts of the RFK Jr. story is that he always has this endearingly tense relationship with the cops.
I don't think he likes the police, at least not as a young man. One story Oppenheimer tells is of RFK Jr. and the terrors. They're sticking potatoes into gas pipes one night and they get caught by a cop and everyone runs away. And the only one who can't escape is Bobby Shriver, who is his cousin. Bobby Jr., this is kind of something in his favor, even though he's escaped, goes back to confront the cop to try and rescue his cousin, which does say something about it. And here's how Oppenheimer describes it.
Oh no.
You're lying, the policeman said, but Bobby kept advancing towards him until they were only inches apart, whereupon he pulled the hawk out and shoved the raptor's beak into the face of the cop who jumped back with a hand on his gun. I have a hawk and he's trained to kill cops.
That's really cool. He's still got some bangers, like, despite it all. The part of the cop, you're lying. It's like, you want to find out, my guy? And it's such an only someone who has grown up in that degree of privilege who would like, in that situation with a cop, shove a hawk in their face. That's so...
And like, more power to you, buddy. You're the only guy who's ever been in that situation. And I'm glad you did it. You might not be the only guys ever shouted, like, I've got a hawk. Yeah, yeah. But you're the only one who did. You're the only one who did and lived, right? Maybe there's a dead hawker out there. Wow.
Wow, what a tale. Thank you for that. Anyway, Bobby's arrest was big news. You know, the media circus lights up around it, yada, yada, yada. And he and his cousin, he's arrested with Bobby Shriver for pot possession. This is different from the Hawk thing. They go before a juvenile court judge and they get a slap on the wrist.
right? You know, they get a punishment. It's not all that serious. The really, the worst thing about it is the media thing around it. And Bobby had actually been expelled from Millbrook a few weeks earlier because of his drug use, because the leadership at the school was really mostly worried that he was going to OD on the property. And they were like,
You know, what's not going to be good for this school's continuing to have another dead Kennedy is a fucking dead Kennedy. Like, get him out of here. And after he gets arrested, they start to claim basically he got kicked out of the school because of that. Right. You know, they don't want to say we did it for this reason. Right. Nobody really wants to. It's best if it kind of comes down to being part of the arrest case.
The family backlash against Bobby is intense and utterly impotent at the same time. Ethel told her son, I'm throwing you out of the family. But no effort was made to stop Bobby, who is at this point 16 years old, from taking $600 out of his savings account, buying a used Ford Falcon and driving across the country with two friends.
He sells the car when they get to Fresno, and he and one friend continue on, hopping trains and living with homeless people until they wash up in Texas. For months, Bobby Kennedy is completely out of touch with any adult but occasionally limb-billing things. And Bobby would later recall this as one of the happiest times of his youth. Quote, I was riding around with bums. It was good. I could be one of them and not a Kennedy.
And like, if you want an idea of how toxic being a Kennedy is, his fondest childhood memory is being homeless. Yeah. Like willingly homeless. Almost on the run. Yeah, basically. But like, yeah. Hiding. Because we're all equally filthy, you know, at this point. You know, we're not bathing. We're not changing our clothes. Like, we look the same that they do. And they just kind of treat me as one of them. Nobody knows who I am.
Yeah, it says a lot. I mean, again, didn't have a chance. Didn't never had a chance. He is next sent when he gets back from this road trip, train hopping trip to a less reputable boarding school in the woods. That's like this is where you send the real problem kids. It's near Boston. He continues to do drugs while he's there, and he develops a notable reputation as not a racist. He is very Oppenheimer quotes and Oppenheimer quotes is like, wow, a white guy that black people like.
Right. But he does quote several black students at this school who were like militant activists, like kind of Black Panther adjacent in the day. And we're like, yeah, Bobby was actually really cool. Like we liked hanging out with Bobby. Like he didn't no issues with Bobby was clearly not a racist person. Yeah, clearly not racist. So we'll give him that here, too.
Bobby Kennedy Jr. graduated from this last boarding school in June of 1972. He was now an adult. You will not be surprised to hear that his grades were not impressive. His extracurriculars at this point are basically just drugs and hanging out next to a cavern of rotting meat with my hawk.
None of this mattered to the Harvard admissions board. RFK Jr. was a legacy. His family had money and hey, with a Kennedy, you never know. They could wind up congressman or president. So you might as well get that Harvard stank on him, right? Sure. And that's where Bobby's gonna spend the mid-70s, studying and getting real into heroin. And we will talk about that in part three. But for now...
For this week, Cody, we're done with RFK Jr. How are you feeling? Where are we on the boy at this point? You know, still some mixed in the sense that like...
sorry, Bobby. Sorry. I get it. Yeah. But you got to get it together. Also. Um, the rotting meat thing is so like, yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm, I'm very curious about where that thread leads. Yeah. Because you don't stop there. Like, that's not like probably the most fucked up thing you're, you're going to be doing. Um,
in relation to dead animal carcasses? I don't know. - Yeah. - I'm gonna think about the hawk a lot. - The hawk is a real, like that's a fascinating. - It's fascinating. - Yeah. - He doesn't talk about his hawk. - My hawk's trained to kill cops. - You're lying. - That's amazing. - His cop fighting hawk. Oh, that's such a good lie. There's some really- - It's so cool.
He definitely had at one point, maybe he's lost it now, but he had at one point some of that Kennedy charisma because that and the whole, you've just killed it, Kennedy! You've just killed the Kennedy so good. It's a Kennedy miracle. It's incredibly funny. I've got a hawk and it kills cops. Yeah. All golden. Yeah, yeah. But you know, the other stuff. Yeah. Good luck to him. It turns out, it doesn't turn out great, Cody. Oh, it doesn't turn out great. Well, I can still say good luck.
Yeah, exactly. Good luck and good night. Cody, pluggables? Hi. Sure. Hi. Hello. Hi. Check out some more news on YouTube.com. It's also a podcast. If you want to listen to it instead of look at my face. And we've got even more news, which is another podcast that we also are doing video now. So check that out on YouTube as well. But you can just listen to it if you don't want to see my face.
Our Patreon.com slash some more news. And with me as always is a mention of my band, the Hot Shapes, which you can check out on Bandcamp and SoundCloud for all your Hot Shapes needs. Bandcloud and Soundcamp. Soundcamp it. All right, everybody. Well, go to hell. I love you.
Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com. Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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Wouldn't it be nice if making decisions was easier? With Xfinity, you have one less decision to worry about. Just say what to watch into your Xfinity voice remote to see editors' picks and find what's new. You can even search by genre or mood. You can also find the ultimate dance soundtrack and play all your favorite music and artists on iHeartRadio to get the party started right in your living room. So you can skip the endless scroll and get right to the good stuff.
Overwhelmed by mess in your pickup bed? Upgrade with the Decked Drawer System. It's completely redesigned. Accommodate more gear in larger drawers. Extend effortlessly and keep your equipment clean and dry. Secure your loads with integrated D-ring tie-downs. Optimize your truck bed space. Proudly made in the USA. Lockable and compatible with any truck from the past 20-plus years. Simple online ordering and easy installation. Visit decked.com slash iHeart for free shipping. Get decked. Truck bed storage, toolboxes,
and accessories.