Meet the Serial Killer Whisperer with Tony Ciaglia EP 43
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From the art of the deal to keeping it real. Live from the Simply Vegas studios. It's the power move with John Gafford. Back again, back again, back again, back again. Thanks for joining us for another episode of the power move. I am John Gafford. I'm your host with me to my left is Colt El Scorcho. Emma Dan. Well,

What's up, El Scorcho? Not much, not much. How's everybody doing? El Scorcho! I thought El Scorcho was strong today, right? I actually like that. I know. That's another one. I thought it was good. Some of these I want to get tattooed on my back. I think...

Back tattoo, I think, is what... Power move episode 50. Yeah, Colt gets a back tattoo, I think it's going to be good. And with us as always is the counselor, Chris Connell. Chris, how are you? Living the dream, gentlemen. And in studio today, special guest, Tony Siaglia. Tony, man, guys, I'm telling you right now.

We've talked about some wild shit on this show. We've talked about some amazing stuff on this show. But today we're going to talk about wild and amazing. And it's a great story of adversity and overcoming. It's an amazing story to me that I can't wait to get to. But you're going to have to wait a second. So hang on a second. I mean, this is going to be filled with, I mean, overcoming adversity. It's suspense. I mean, I'm talking about...

I mean, we're going to help the FBI catch some serial killers today is what's going to happen. Because that's legit. I mean, it's going to be crazy. That sounds like a joke. It ain't. That's kind of what the show is about today, which we're very excited about. Don't look at me. I don't like the way you looked at me. No, no. When you said we're going to help the serial killers. Well, let's face it. After last week's psychological test, I think if anybody hears a serial killer, we know where Colt ranks on the list. I mean, I'm not...

Out of everybody, I'm number three on the list. I agree. I agree. I don't... I mean, God, guys, I think I'm the one you want to leave your kids with. If you want them serial killed. If you want them serial killed. No, as I sit here and I look at the monitor, I got to tell you, man, I'm looking tan today. I'm looking tan. Yeah, I woke up Saturday and my wife was like,

Okay, you're clear. You're literally clear today. You got to do something about it. So I went and got my $480 spray tan. And that seems like a lot for a spray tan. But let me explain to you what happens. I pay them $39 a month and I go like once a year. That's what happens. And so but when they go there, they get you with like the best sales pitch ever, which is like, well, you know, if you cancel, you're never going to get this rate again.

And the incredible cheapness that is just buried deep inside of me is like, well, I can't let the rate go. It's just too good of a deal. I'm grandfathered. No, no. But if my face looks really tan, it's because I got Rossed at the tanning booth, if you know what that means, back in the day to show friends. So I get the tanning booth right. I do the thing. I'm doing the spray tan. I'm not going to nuke myself in the cooker. It's killing you otherwise. But I get the spray tan, right? And I push the button, do what you're supposed to do. And it just goes...

and just sprays my face. That's it? Goes bing. And I look at it and it says, face tanning session over. And I'm like, well, I mean, I want more. I mean, I didn't pay $480 to just get the face done. I mean, no, I need the whole thing done. So it was a 240 tan. Yeah, it was 240. Yeah, there it is. I thought somebody actually sprayed you. No, you stand there in the machine. You hold your arms up. Right. Really? So then I'm like, I go out there. I'm like, I call up there. I literally call them from the cell phone. And I'm like, something's wrong with this stupid machine, right? You got to fix it. She's like, oh.

Oh, yeah, it's...

broken and I'm like oh okay well what do I do because I'm standing here with it I've just sprayed but she's like no we're gonna put you in the machine next door then I'm like all right so now I've already been sprayed on my face I have no idea what got sprayed on my face at this point could have been anything I mean Colt knows what I'm talking about but no weekend weekend out for Colt but no but it could have been anything and I didn't know so I'm like I'm just gonna have to try to block my face you know the next one I do the full body I didn't work out I got sprayed twice I come home my wife was like

Your face is very tan. I'm like, yeah. So I got Ross. You look great. I did get, I did. I think you look good. I did, but I do want to mention this. I don't know if I told you this counselor, Colt said the funniest thing I've ever heard in my entire life this weekend. Maybe I just think it's funny, but maybe it was Colt. Now we're at the hockey game on Saturday.

Did I tell you this? No, but I'm ready for it. Cold air at the hockey game. Cold air at the hockey game on Saturday. We're watching hockey. And we weren't talking about anything about this. You know why? There was no precursor to this. Yeah, somebody came on the jumbotron. And what did you say? What did you say? I mean. Can I say what you said? Yeah, go ahead. Coco's like the Skolkos. I mean, what are these? I mean, it just pisses me off so bad with these people with gaps between their teeth. Don't get them fixed. He goes, I mean, I got a gap between my teeth. I ain't getting it fixed. But what's wrong with this guy? I mean.

i mean right i don't know i mean yeah dead serious just angry at these people you ever have something like that that makes you mad that you're like you don't do yourself yeah no i'm self-aware but if i got my gap fixed i'd look weird without you everybody knows me as a gap so like when i don't you think that guy on the jumbotron would feel

Because his personality was being trounced upon. So that's like your signature. Yeah, it's my signature. Fat people make fun of fat people. Some guy, yeah, like some random guy at the hockey game, that's not his signature. He probably works IT or something. He doesn't see people. His nickname could be El Gapo. You don't know that.

Let's just all take a moment to think that El Scorcho is not running the metaverse yet. That's exactly right. The metaverse would be amazing if I ran it. Just throwing that out here. King of the metaverse. I think a world would be a lot better if you had people like me running it.

You know what? Chris doesn't know what to say after that. He was about to say something. At this point, can it be any worse? I saw an article. I know this has been talked about to death, but I got to bring this up because I thought this was batshit crazy today. There was an article today in the New York Times written by a professor of sexual studies at Purdue University. And the title of this article was, we should be celebrating this swimmer.

The swimmer you know I'm talking about. Like we did Jackie Robinson. Chris, want to get canceled? Go ahead. No, no, no, but it's not about being canceled because here's the thing. There is a point where things, the eye test has to matter, right? Yeah. In life, right? So what this is going to do, all pendulum shift, right?

I'm genuinely fearful that these are the kinds of stories that are going to hurt people that are going through transitions and changes in their gender or whatever. Because these stories are the one that are going to take away from sort of positive. Yeah. It's like if you're a police officer watching the Rodney King, you're going, this is not good. I'm not obviously equating them.

Because they're clearly different. But I'm saying at some point you look at something and you go, this isn't going to be ultimately good for the movement, for people that just want general equality, genuine equality of opportunities and whatever. When you see something like that, the person, she presents a very large...

That's how she presents, right? Because she hasn't gone through reassignment surgery that I'm aware of. I could be wrong. She had to suppress for hormones for a year, right? And so you go online. And here is my problem is that we've talked about this. I'm the commie of this group. You are. Which is hilarious to me that I'm the left winger. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, in any world where I'm the crazy left-winger, this is pretty far right. But at the end of the day, when you... No, no, but I'm saying if I'm ever considered a left-winger, like a straight left, but you go on the talking point that people are coming up with their own science now behind it and trying to justify it. So they're trying to square peg around a hole and you look at them and the studies about, well, bone density actually goes down when you're on suppressive estrogen therapy. Well, this does this, this does that. And I go, well, look,

You can say whatever you want, but the eye test will never be matched because you're never going to see women transition to male and competing against men ever. It won't happen. It's never happened. There may be some skills. It may happen in billiards. It may happen in something where there's no physicality issues. No,

That was well put. Do you know what I'm saying? Like maybe in something where physicality, but the reason these sports were bifurcated in men and women's is to allow for, for individuals of that group to succeed in that area. Right? Well, that was my point, which is if you're going to go this, why even have male and women? Let's just have the NBA. And if women can make it, God bless because it, because it's not fair, but it hurts women. Exactly. No, that's my point because it doesn't make any sense.

sense to do it and i'm called a turf for that opinion yeah a trans exclusionary radical feminist and i look at it i go we haven't gotten to a place okay who's calling you that well no no that's that's what you're calling okay i'm sorry when you said i'm being called that i'm like is that are they protesting you know the the response from the left and i'm going to call it the left because it's not liberals it's from the left is that if you don't say that a transitioning

male to female is a woman for all intents and purposes, then you are a bigot. You are a TERF. And I go, that individual didn't grow up with

chasing her and slapping her ass when she was a kid. She couldn't defend herself. I have two daughters. I'm telling you, women do not have the same issues growing up and developing or whatever. So we haven't done a good enough job protecting biological women yet. I don't know why the bandwagon needs to shift to protecting biological males transition to females unless they're being objectively discriminated against. And I don't see that happening. You get the minister of health who is an objectively, you know, male to female transitioned individual. So you,

We need to move things appropriately, but not past the eye test. Yeah. I just, I think that comparing that to what Jackie Robinson dealt with was obnoxious on a level that is insane. Little different. Well, maximum. You know, and I hate to say it, but no, I'm not even going to say it because it was ridiculous. But to compare those two things was so apples and oranges. It was just, I couldn't even believe it. It was nuts.

There's a lot of those issues. And again, I'm not speaking on behalf of any culture, community or whatever, but I would, I would presume, and I hate to presume things, but I would presume that any of my black or African American friends would, would not see those as equivalent at all because they're from, you know, a disadvantaged underrepresented group of people. Case in point, right. Case in point. Did you see the acceptance speech for the director that directed the, uh, the, uh, Venus and Serena Williams movie? Did you see that? No. No.

She made the comment basically in her – she got roasted for it. But she made the comment during acceptance speech for Golden Globe for Best Director where essentially she was saying that, you know, you guys, you worked hard, but you never had to compete against the guys like I do. It's like – Wow.

Like, like you're going to belittle to, you know, African-American women from Compton coming up through a very white world of professional tennis. And you're going to compare that to, cause you got to compete with male directors. Like what are you like? It made no sense in it. It landed really short. And I think,

People are just always looking to compare their situation or their victory to someone else's. And I think that's, I think that's true to the point. That's almost a sign of the times when you have too much excess. I was watching a vice documentary about Haiti and,

And just sort of what's gone on since the killing of not only the president, but just interventionism. These individuals just want peace and freedom and security, all of which they don't have. They're burying their children at very young ages. And you look at certain places and you go, zero people there are debating these issues. They could kill us. It's a good thing to say that you're a prosperous society and that you have...

Do you think anybody in Ukraine gives a rat's ass about any of this right now? No, absolutely not. They just want to be alive. They don't want their house to get blown up. Yeah. It's amazing how simple issues can be when abundance is removed from the equation. How sometimes maybe we've lost certain clarity. And I welcome the debate. I think that as long as the debate is alive and healthy, that it's good. Because maybe I haven't considered some positions. The problem is when people want to shut down debate.

Well, echo chambers, we've always talked about it. It's just, it's straight to bigotry. If you're saying, I don't understand how you see these as equivalent. And they're like, well, that's because you're a bigot. Well, that's because you're lazy. Cause you're so lazy. If that's, let me put, let me put you in this box that I've designed to make my opinion. Correct. My other friends will call me a hero, powerless friends. Nobody ever does anything.

but within my own echo chamber, you know, my own echo chamber, I'm a hero for, you know, for piling on on people that maybe had legitimate questions. You know what? Look, let's talk about some real overcoming adversity. Let's talk about some real stuff. I mean, you know,

I'm excited for this. That's why I didn't hijack the show. Yeah, you didn't hijack it all. He wants to get right to Tony. I want to listen to Tony's story. I'm going to give Tony a little bit of an intro, and then I want to hear from him what his story is, because it's amazing. Now, first of all, Tony is the brother of one of my dearest friends. Your brother is somebody that I love dearly. I'm happy to call him a friend, and any extension of him and his family is always welcome with me. Thanks, John. So let's start at the very beginning. So

Talk about, you were a normal guy growing up. You just had a normal childhood growing up. Played sports, did all that stuff, good in school, all of those things, right? Yes. I mean, just nothing extraordinarily strange or interesting about your childhood. I was really big in theater and I was a jock. Yeah? Uh-huh. Go on, I'm sorry to cut you off. No, you can cut me off all you like. And then at a certain age, something happened to you that changed the trajectory of your life. What was that? Yes.

Well, on July 23rd, 1992, I was at a summer camp and there was a group of us in the lake about chest high and little did I know my entire life was going to change in a major way. A boy came in on a jet ski going 45 miles an hour and

I don't remember any of this. This has all been told to me. And he turned and just sideswiped me in the back of the head.

Right here. And you, and you, so you went from literally one minute, one minute around playing in the lake, doing my thing with my friends. And then you woke up in the hospital. Yes. And this was in between ninth and 10th grade. How long, how long were you out from the time you got hit to the time you can remember coming back to in the hospital? I was days, weeks. What was a 36 day coma, 36 day coma. You're out. And I died three times on the care flight helicopter that came to get me. And,

can i tell you about my out of body experience everything yeah of course we got time flora's yours my friend yeah we want to hear we're here to hear your story tony you tell your story i um i died and when i died my i left my body and i went up towards and everybody's heard about this white light in the sky well it was there and it was real and i was i was going towards it

And I could look down and I could see myself and all of the medics and the doctors trying to get me back. And I got to this white light, guys, and it exploded, okay? And it went forever that way and forever that way. And I was in the middle and I was just floating through it. And I remember feeling warm,

I remember feeling no pain. There was no blood, but I felt like I had been there before. Okay. Right. And so you were, you were at peace at this way. Very calming. Oh yes. I was at peace and I drifted through this tunnel and I looked to my left and I saw my family, my

around the kitchen table and they were eating spaghetti so it wasn't just you you saw you saw your family i saw my family okay and i kept going and i looked to the right and i saw myself playing on the 10th grade basketball team um with all my friends and i kept going and then i stopped

And before me was this wall. It was a huge wall and it was so beautiful and it was so powerful and it was like pure energy. Okay. And out stepped Jesus Christ. He stepped out and Jesus looked up.

Just like you guys think he looks from pictures. He had a beard. He was tan. He didn't get a spray tan. Yeah, it wasn't as tan as me. Not as tan as me. Not as tan as me today. No. But he was tan and he had long, wavy hair. And he was in a robe. And he came before me. And he got right up close to me.

And he said, Anthony Siaglia, have no fear. You are with your father in heaven. And he said, I'm going to give you a choice, though. I'm going to tell you, or I'm going to give you a choice. If you would like to go back to your family. And he said, but if you choose to go back, he goes, I will take away from you everything that

And he put his arms out. Everything that I, everything that my children take for granted every day. But if you choose to stay with me, you will live for eternity. And one day you will meet up with your loved ones again. But it's not their time. And then he put his hand on my shoulder and

And he said, because I told him, I want to go back because I can't imagine my family. Without you. Without me. And having the surgeon tell them, you know, sorry, Anthony is not. Going to make it. Going to make it. And he said, but I want you to love, love. And when you think you've loved too much, continue to love all of my children. Mm-hmm.

And that was it. That was the out-of-body experience. And then you went from there and you kind of right back to where you were? You just blinked back to where you were? I woke up then. Got it. In the intensive care room.

Not the intensive care because I had gotten moved to the coma. 36 days later, though? 36 days later, yes. Now, when you woke up, when you first came out of the coma, did you feel, were you immediately like, something's not, I mean, obviously I've been hurt. I've been there. But could you feel, did you notice something was different? The memory is kind of scary.

A little hazy. Hazy, yes. But I do remember parts of it. I remember the rehab. I was in rehab for seven months, relearning how to walk, talk, read, spell, swallow, eat. And I was paralyzed on the right side of my body. So I had lost everything. And...

I remember. At what point did you realize that, I mean, of course, all your motor function was on all those things. Yes. Because I know that you suffered a little bit of a personality difference from when before to now. Oh, my God. So at what point did you notice that? Is that something you knew was happening or what happened? I know you know now, so. My entire personality changed like 100%. I tried to go back to school and...

Guys, it wasn't the rehab that was the hard part. It was how my friends treated me. I went from a very popular, whatever the hell that means. Yeah, whatever it means. At that age, yeah. Yeah, and I was teased. I was, this is hard to say, but I was spit on. They treated me like I had leprosy. Yeah. And that was the hardest part. I...

I had to drop out of school after six weeks. My parents, they pulled me out. Yeah. I mean, if you're a tough man, it's tough. I mean, that's so frustrating as a parent too. It's tough. Yeah. Cause you got hormones going on at that age. Yeah. And,

Since this is 92, that's a good, do you think, I mean, like, look. I don't think that would happen today. That's my question. Do you think that would still be happening today? There's been a lot, so like I said, people shouldn't watch it, but there's a lot more progress now. I think people are a lot more accommodating for differences now, 30 years later. Yeah, I agree with that. There's a lot more progress. I agree too. Thank God. Thank God. Yeah, that's a good part of progress. I mean, you hear this and as a parent, you

you know, your heart goes out to you for that. But you also think, Jesus, you know, thank God, you know, are my kids capable of that? Oh yeah. Of being the bad side of that. Are they capable? I know that that's, yeah. Well, the thing is, I don't think any parent that their kids end up doing shit like that. I don't think any parent thinks their kids are capable of that. Yeah.

When you tell them that they are and they defend them, that's when you know that that's why. My little Billy wouldn't do that. If somebody came up to my house and said, your daughter has been picking on my daughter, I'd be like, one minute. Well, that happened. No, no, no. That's happened before. I found out that my son was giving the...

little Bren, who's the next door neighbor boy, who was like five years younger. My son was giving him a hard time at one point and they called me. I wanted to murder my son. I made him go next door and apologize not just to the boy but to his parents. And we've never had a problem since. And this was years ago. I mean, kids are assholes until you correct them. At the end of the day, you have to have a good role model. So they pulled you out of school. They pulled me out of school and

My adolescence really, really horrible because one thing I deal with now, even to this day, is severe depression. And that's due to the brain damage. And I mean, there's days when I wake up and I wish God would just come back and give me

that choice again to go with him or come back. And when I told my parents that it broke their heart. But see, I think, I think, I think for me and people don't know the rest of the story and we're going to get to the rest of the story. Yes. But how many families have you blessed since then? Because of, because of what you did and we're going to get to what you did in a minute. But I think every time, you know, if I'm giving you any advice, which I mean, that's part of what we do is we're sitting and give people advice. I'm giving you any advice on that is, um,

On those days, man, this is for anybody. On days when you feel like you're not making an impact or you don't want to get out of bed or you're not feeling good about you, always turn your focus to the impact you're making on others. I mean, I always tell people the definition of success for me is not so much what you achieve going forward, but it's reaching back to pull others forward. And I know for a fact, and we're going to get into that story in just a minute, you have changed people's lives. You have made it better. You have healed families because of what you've done.

How long, we're going to get to that. How long was your motor skills off? Cause I mean, your, your arm, you said you right hand paralyzed and stuff. I mean, your speech, everything's great. So how long did that take to get back? You remember? In rehab, I do remember it was like the nurses and stuff. They, they would always tell me, you know, you're always like two steps ahead of where you should be. And,

I want to say I was blessed and a lot of it was because I was really young. I was 15 at that time. So the recovery rate was better. And, uh, neuroelasticity. Yeah. Well, here's, you know what this is almost like, dude. And I'm not trying, I'm not trying to trivialize, trivialize your story, dude. This is like your superhero origin story.

Because all of this created what is known now as the serial killer whisperer, which is what you're known as. Am I right or wrong by that? That is what I'm known as. You're known as the serial killer whisperer. And right now, if you're in your car doing this, I hope you just said, what the fuck did he just say? Because we're going to get into that now. So along with this, you started feeling, was it compulsion? Was it certain things that you were feeling you were trying to get a handle on and trying to understand? What started this?

The way the story goes and the way it happened was, I mean, I went to therapy like psychologists for probably 17 years, like twice a week after my accident and everything. And my...

My psychologist told me, you know, Tony, you really need a hobby. Yeah. Yeah. You really need a hobby. And that's true for everyone, by the way. Everybody needs a hobby. If you don't have one, go figure it out. You know what Colt's hobby is? It's ruining every text group he's in. That's his hobby with the Android phone. He just ruins literally. I don't have an iPhone. Tony, you have a phone, right? An iPhone. You have an iPhone, right? Yeah.

So we could all be texting right here? Right, and Colt would ruin it. Ruining it with the green bubble. Be ruining it. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you. He says you need a hobby. Go ahead. I need a hobby. And I said, well, you know, I'll take that home, that idea, and kick it around and see what I come up with. And my dad, when he was younger, wanted to be a criminologist. So he had lots of books around the house. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, just lots of infamous, notorious people.

serial killers and stuff. So of course I looked at those books and I was thinking, Hey, I'm a good writer. I'm why don't I reach out to these people? Not Ted bunny. He was already dead, but to serial killers. So what I did is I went back and I told my doctor that, uh,

And trust me, he was not supportive. I was thinking golf. I mean, stamp collecting. Pinnacle, yeah. Coyote. Coyote. Cereal killer pen pals. Not what I was thinking. And exactly the words out of his mouth were, Tony, you're born with a clear lake of water. And...

If you do this, you're going to throw lots of shit into that water. No kidding. Darken the pool a little bit. Oh, my God. But I didn't listen to him. Were your parents okay with that? They were. They were actually interested to see what kind of response I would get. So I started out. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to take a break. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to hear about...

You know, we've heard the backstory now. We got the origin done. Now we're going to move into the hero's journey where we actually start moving through this process to become the superhero you are, which is the serial killer whisperer. We're going to be back in just a second. Stay with us. Hey, it's John Gafford. If you want to catch up more and see what we're doing, you can always go to thejohngafford.com where we'll share any links that we've things we talked about on the show, as well as links to the YouTube where you can watch us live.

And if you want to catch up with me on Instagram, you can always follow me at the John Gafford. I'm here. Give me a shout. Back for part two of today's Power Move where we talk about overcoming adversity to help others. Today we have an interview with the serial killer whisperer, Tony Siaglia. Of course, with me as always, I'm John Gafford, Colt El Scorcho.

I'll scorcho your group text. I will scorcho your group text with my green bubble. And the counselor, Chris Connell. And sitting in today, if you didn't hear that, Tony Siagal, if you didn't hear the first part of this, it was kind of the superhero origin story. Go back and watch that. This is also the portion of the show when I make my cheap pander. So if you're watching us on YouTube.

Take that hot second. Give us a subscribe. Give us a like on the video. Give us a comment, whatever it is. And if you're listening to us wherever you are, through whatever podcast listener you are, give us a five-star review. It takes two seconds, and it does help the cause. So we were just talking about, we were picking this back up a second ago. We were talking about

So after your brain injury, your doctor said you needed to pick up a hobby. And you thought backgammon would be a little too much. So you decided to become pen pals with serial killers is what it is. So how do you sit down? Okay, so you've decided to do this now. You haven't started. So how do you decide who's the first person you're going to... Walk me through the process of writing the first letter. Well, John, what I did was...

I got on the internet and I got all these names and all these addresses and everything. And I wrote like a base letter. Okay. Like a mass mailing. Got it. Okay. And I figured I've lived a very interesting life so far. And I really think that, you know, these people, they're lonely, you know, death row, wherever they may be. Yeah. You know, they...

Maybe they would like to share their life with me. What was the context of the base letter? What was in it? The base letter was basically about my injury and it was about the out-of-body experience and about how I was treated and about how society treated me and really at first wasn't willing to accept. Right.

a brain injured survivor because I did have problems. See, that's really interesting because

It's authentic. Well, no, no, no. It's not that it's authentic. It's you wonder how many of them are responding back because they sympathized with being ostracized by society. Yeah. And how many might have responded based on the fact that you had an out of spirit and out of body experience with God and that they're there. They're on the fast track to meet him. So maybe they wanted to do that. So it's it's it's interesting. Trauma does unite people.

Yeah. You'll see that like a lot of groups, a lot of therapy, like people that have experienced traumas often relate to one another, right? Because I used to speak at brain injured survivor groups. Sure. Because who else is going to understand you better than someone else who's kind of gone through your traumas? That's in general, right? So how many letters did you send out? I sent out, I'm glad you asked that question. I sent out 40 letters to 40 different people.

I'll be damned. My psychologist was not thinking I was going to get much of a response. How much did you get? But I did. I got 36 letters back. Pretty good conversion rate. Yeah, we need to let Tony write our sales letters. Yeah, what are you doing? So this letter turned a hobby into a full-time gig. Okay. So your first...

Okay, so did you start this with an intention? Did you have an intention of where it was going to go or did you just want to see where it was going to go? What was the early intention of doing this? The early intention was a hobby, you know.

be kind of cool throw it against just to see just to see if you could get him to respond just what he said what was it throw it against the wall just see what happens see what sticks yeah yeah awesome who was all of life's interesting things start that my first first who was the one you were excited about well the first person who wrote me back was arthur shawcross arthur john shawcross he was a serial killer in um rochester new york

And he was kind of a big name. He murdered 13 prostitutes, but first he murdered two children. And he got out. He slipped through the loopholes of the law in prison. He did, I can't remember how much time, but he got out. And six months later, he started murdering prostitutes and...

I believe he killed 13 and they caught him then. Android user? I'm guessing he had an Android driver. Yeah, he did. Now this guy though. He's going to write me a letter later. The views of John Gafford do not reflect the Android answer. When it comes to Android, they absolutely do reflect your thoughts. We sympathize more with the 13 women he killed than Colt and his Android. I'm sorry. There you go. This guy though, we went and visited him.

um you your family my dad my brother and me and i i've i've visited lots of prisons over the years i've been doing this for 15 years yeah we'll get into that though yeah and i just the um he was very grandfatherly like he was very kind very friendly

But if you were on his wrong side... Yeah. Yeah. And can I share this really quick? Anything you want. Okay, this is about him. Okay, he's sitting about two feet in front of me at a table here. My dad, me, my brother. And then he starts talking about the murders. Okay? And...

I don't think I can talk about it. You don't, yeah. I can't? Anything you want. Anything you want. Open forum. Well, two of the girls he murdered, and he took his knife, he cut their vagina out, and his eyes were just going up and down like this, and he was sweating, you guys. This guy was sweating. Drops were falling down his nose, nose.

onto his lip and he took his fake teeth out and he threw them down on the table and he goes i ate it i ate the whole thing from the inside out and then there was a silence and you know what he said then i went to my favorite dunkin donuts and i got a cup of black coffee to rinse it down with now that okay all right hang on a second at what point at what point now does your dad go

Maybe we should have taken a backgammon. Maybe this is not what we need to be doing right now. Maybe. Because they had to have had that conversation with you. They had to have. They really didn't. There wasn't a general concern for this. They monitored my correspondence. Okay. Like with what these people said, what I was saying to these people. Because they're master manipulators in there too. Oh, yeah. Oftentimes, right? Oh, yeah. That's what they do. And...

Before I kind of got off on that tangent about Arthur Shawcross, do you know what I was talking about, you guys? No, we said how many responses you got. I was saying who were like the top ones you were excited about? Oh, I was really excited about... I'm sure you guys have heard of...

Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Bono. They were the Hillside Stranglers. Yeah. They responded, huh? Mm-hmm. Wow. Gary Leon Ridgeway. Oh, wow. Yeah. He's the Green River Killer. Mm-hmm. And then there was two guys, two killing cousins...

in Vero Beach, Florida. Oh, yeah. Fred Waterfield, who's still alive, and his cousin, David Gore. And... So... Go on. No, you can say anything. Well, no, no. I was going to say. But at some point...

You know, these relationships you had with these guys, it goes from more of a here's a quick pen pal back to creating a genuine kind of friendship with them that leads to some very positive results. Yes. So where was the first inkling that that might happen? I just started to feel like, for instance, there's this one serial killer and

named Harvey Kerrigan. He's written me 50-page letters, you guys. I mean, these people, they wouldn't just like, they would share their entire life with me, like their childhood, what made them into what they become, you know, and why they decided to walk that road. And I really felt that my...

It's hard to be friends with a sociopath. You can't really be. Yeah, that's true. I've tried. Can't date him either. Can't text in groups. Did you say you can't date him either? No, you can't date him either. That is awesome. That was awesome. Yeah, you can't date him either. Lord knows. Everybody's tried. Was there a common theme you saw between people and how they grew up? Oh, yes, exactly. Yeah.

But could you write out a list of the top five things that they all kind of probably had similar? I don't believe you're born evil. No, I don't. I believe and with my research in getting to know all of these people. Oh, I have hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with them as well. And guys,

These people were all made. - Yeah, neglect and trauma. - Yeah, horrible. Raped, pimped out by their moms, their dads. I mean, things that you can't even believe.

kind of formed them into psychopaths, into sociopaths. Absolutely. That's nuts. So at what point, okay, so we're communicating with all these people in the story. That's what we're doing. We've created a relationship with them to where they feel safe enough to tell you their entire life story. So at what point do you get the first piece of information that you're like, I should probably call somebody about this? They started to share with me

murders, crimes that they committed that the law doesn't know about. And they were writing this stuff down. They were giving me directions to where their treasure chests are. - Common theme, right? - Yes, yes.

No bodies, just like where they hid identifications, necklaces of all these victims and stuff. And, you know, as I continued, my dad said, you know, they could write in hell of a book about your life story, Tony. And that's what they did. We found an author. Well, I'm more concerned about when you started helping the FBI with some of this stuff.

That is right now is going on. Right now is going on. Exactly. I'm helping two detectives in Vero Beach, Florida, find a suitcase of scalps that the serial killer, that was his fetish, hair. So he would kill his victims and he would scalp them.

these ladies and there's like a hundred or so Polaroid pictures in this briefcase. And he gave me the spot where it's at. And I have two detectives who heard, I have a podcast by the way. We're going to promote it. Yeah. We're going to help you. Okay. We're going to push it. Yeah. But the, these detectives, they heard my podcast and they contacted me and they flew out to Las Vegas and they, um,

They've got all the directions from me and that's going on right now. To help them out. Uh-huh. Which that's what makes you the serial killer whisperer. Yes. There's also a case where, oh gosh, brain fart. I'm forgetting the name of...

Oh, that's okay. What's the deal with it? It's for children. And Robert Hansen. Okay. Yes, he was the worst serial killer in Alaskan history. Well, he killed two girls and they didn't find these two girls and they're young. And it's out by his cabin and I'm working with...

The Federation for Missing and Exploited Children. They've come out to my house three times to get information and stuff like that. On everything you're doing. Yeah. So the fact that you got connected with all of these people. Yes. And now you're using this information to, you know, there's still families out there that are hurting because of the victims of these people and having the ability to help, you know, hopefully find them have peace. That's got to be the reward for all of this.

And it is, John. And I can't imagine, I don't have any children, but if I had a child or not even a child, somebody in my family who went missing and they vanished and there's no answers, I couldn't imagine living without an answer. So I might be able to give these people

answers and there's one serial killer who's given me like seven cold cases that we're working with or working on right now so what's their motivation so a part of me wonders if it's for their own closure their own senses of guilt their own um you know whether they believe what's happening in the next life you know what I mean to kind of cleanse their own consciousness

their conscience or is it something about just your relationship with them where they feel comfortable in like all criminals, every criminal talks about what they do eventually. So do you think it's a part of absolution or do you think it's more about... Is it bragging or absolution? Bragging or absolution is a good way to put it. That was an awesome question and they're different. Some of them want to do the right thing and do what I just said for the families and some of them

They don't give a shit. Just total sociopath. Yeah, exactly. And those people don't mean shit to them. But I think with my friendship over the years, and I think I've been able to work it out of them. Yeah, wear them down a little bit. Yeah. Is that your intent or is it just a byproduct of the conversation and friendship? Like John tells me sometimes where he's buried a few things.

Yeah. Prostitutes, but I'm not. I'm his attorney. I can't tell anybody. No, no, no. But the point is, listen, but we've worked on the statute and they had Android's defense is viable. We've talked about that. They used Android phones. It's completely viable defense. You can hate it, but I told Colt, I told Colt,

you know, having an Android is a lot like dying. You know, the people around you are sad, but you're oblivious to it. It is. I didn't mean to take away from you, but you, but your thing is, it's just sort of like a byproduct of the friendship. Like, are you genuinely developing these relations for people?

I don't even if you're a true psychopath I mean like I said I can't understand I carry guilt with me I almost hit a rabbit on the car like oh shit I don't want to kill anything it's just to me death is finality and I just it creeps me out it has since I was a kid touch a mummy though

But I was an EMT when I was younger. And so death to me is not an area I want to be around because it darkens my pool, like you were saying with your dad. It seems like to you it's been an area where you've been able to thrive and lighten up other people's pools. And I want to interrupt you really quick. I was done. It's all you. Feel free. Feel free. And I like that question, especially at the end.

It does get to me, especially when I deal with assholes that kill children and rape children. Now, now that's a whole nother level of, of evil to me. And when it gets to that level, I back away and I,

I'm very spiritual, obviously. I met Jesus. I pray a lot. And I also, I look at pictures, you guys, of the victims before they're dead. So wait a second. Is there a point with this where it's really, you stay focused with these people and it's all about helping the families of the victims, but if it gets too dirty, the water gets too muddy, you got to get out?

That's exactly fair to say. That's yes. So has there been a couple of people that you are like, I'm done talking to too much? Uh, yes, especially I'll just be really quick guys, especially the people that, um, that won't admit to killing, even though it's in black and white. Yeah. Yeah. Like Randy craft one say he's killed like 67 people. And I was, uh,

friends, you know, whatever you call it, with him for quite some time. But then, you know, after a while, I was like, yeah, this is dry. I can't, there's nothing, there's no. When you stare into the face of like evil, it's blank. Yes. A lot of times, you know, because if there's fire and anger, at least there's emotion. But these guys. Yeah, just numb. And Randy Kraft, he was a homosexual and he killed gays. Just like Jeffrey Dahmer.

He was before me though. How many of these people are you talking to right now? Right now, I don't have time to, because I used to write like all night, like tons of letters. And I write, I take my time. I write like six, seven, eight page letters to these people. Because you got to kind of be all in with them if they're going to be all in with you. Exactly. And, and,

I'm sorry. No, that's an interesting point. It's a lot out of you, but you are approaching these as genuine, almost friendships. And it's not one of those things, how can you be friends with somebody who kills people? It's like, well, because...

Humans are complex. Life is complex. Yes, it is. You can see past their traumas. So is your intent to develop genuine friendships with these people and then it leads to other things? Or are you kind of now at a point where you've realized your gift? And you're going at an angle. And you're going kind of at an angle. Both can be true too, I suppose. Yeah.

I'm sorry, John. I didn't answer your question. I'm talking to about 10 now. I'm talking to one woman in California on death row. She murdered her five children. Susan Eubanks is her name. She's a real fucking piece of shit, if I could say that. Feel free. She did it all at once. All at once. She went in the house, her house, and just...

Started shooting him in the back of the head. And I'm talking to Pam Smart. I've been talking to her for 15 years. She's very infamous. And I do say I have a genuine friendship with her. I like her. Those other guys, fuck them. I mean, it's too hard to, you know. Right, right. Yeah.

What intrigues you about her? What intrigues me about her? The fact that she has made a difference. She went to prison. She's gotten like two or three diplomas, you know, and she has a life sentence, but she's dealing with the governor who I might talk to on her behalf. Just...

Because the three other boys, the guys that actually did the crime, they killed her husband. They're all out of prison. Even the guy that pulled the trigger. She's the only one left in prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, she does a lot in prison to working with other inmates and stuff. Path to forgiveness. So when did the book come up?

Well, you mentioned earlier, let's get back to the book. So if you want to read the book and you want to hear all about this, what's the book called, Don? The book is called The Serial Killer Whisperer by Pete Early. Okay. They buy it on Amazon or anywhere books are sold, I'm imagining. Okay, there you go. And so how did he hear about this? What was that process like? He approached you, what happened there? To get a hold of Pete Early? Yeah. So how'd the book come to pass? There was a doctor that I knew and-

You know what? My brain injury, I do have certain problems, like dates. He does date. So he called you, and you guys just started doing interviews and started working through it. Yeah. He wrote the book for two years. For two years. And then it took two years to publish the book. And when it came out...

It became a bestseller right away. And I was on a show called The Doctors. I remember that show. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And that was great. They were all really cool. And I've done like

a dozen radio shows and it became really big. - But this is the best podcast you've ever been on besides your own, right? - I mean, hands down. - John, of course. - Why ask obviously? - Hey John, is water wet? - And I love the fact you said that you can't date a sociopath eater. That's hysterical. - You can't, you can't. Believe me, I think in our younger days we've all tried. Although, you know what?

Not to make it weird, but Colt's wife is trying to kill him on a regular basis. We might need to have a huge difference between serial killers and justifiable homicide. That is a good point. Justifiable homicide. Okay, I get it. I get it. I get a probation.

were there anything that like really shocked you I mean for that guy to sit there and say cut out the girl's vaginas and ate him that's gotta be top top like that was tough oh yeah that's gotta be very tough very tough and shout out to Dunkin Donuts I mean I know this is the same coffee a choice for us for that hey you guys this is the same guy though oh Jesus that would call my house and talk to my mom too much too much coddle

too much too much okay he would call your mom and talk to your mom oh yeah these guys call my house and they talk to my mom and they give her recipes and stuff holy not vagina recipes so now so so talk about the podcast let's talk about that obviously we want to give you a little bit sponsored by dunkin donuts we could we could we could it was it was a good plug

Tell me about the podcast. The podcast, we've done season one. It's 16 episodes. They're an hour long. Um,

The podcast is called Murder Phone. Murder Phone. And you can get it wherever they do podcasts. Yeah, wherever it is. So search around for this. Wherever you're listening to this, take a listen for Murder Phone. And we're about to drop season two. Okay, that's awesome. It's a lot different than Dream Phone, which is... Yeah, listen, listen, listen. Here goes Connell. Connell's thinking after us today. John, can I say something really quick? No, whatever you want. I just want to say...

What makes this podcast so special is all three of you guys.

you all have like way different personalities. So it really goes well. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Hopefully none of the personalities line up with who you've been talking to, but it's like, you kind of remind me of. Just so you know, what started kind of the whole podcast was, I don't remember who it was, but somebody was just, we were all three in a room joking at one point. And somebody was like, man, I'd love to go get a drink with you guys. And effectively, this is going to get a drink with us. There's just no drinks. Sometimes there is, but not today. It's pretty much what it is. This is going to get a drink with us.

Just like my podcast. My dad is the co-host and he says, welcome to our table. So it's kind of like the same thing. Exactly. Do you like a serial killer per pod? Uh, no, we do like a serial killer. Uh,

Or another serial killer and we go the whole season on them because I have that much stuff. He's got hundreds. It's like a serial. I've listened to it. It's really good. Your dad's really good at it. You guys have such a good connection. It's a great podcast. So definitely check that out. But again, man, this is one of those things. Whenever we do a podcast here, we like to do a couple things, which is motivate you to either give you tips, give you direction in business, or tell a story where it's like,

what is wrong with you? What's wrong with me? You know, I could be doing more. What is, you know, that's, this is a guy that was in a coma for 36 days, had to relearn literally how to do everything in his power. Um,

And now has turned a limiting thing in his life into a force for good to help others. And it's a wild story, man. I'm not going to lie. It's out there. It's wild. But that's what makes it good. And yeah, so check out Tony's podcast, Murder Phone. Tony, thank you for joining us today, brother. I love you guys. Thank you. You guys are great. Give that a listen. And we're going to wrap it up as we always do, guys. If you didn't like what we did today, tell two people or tell somebody.

wait, what am I doing? See, Tony's got, this has been so wild today. John needs some more caffeine. I do. I do. What I meant to say was, if you like what we're doing, tell a friend. If you hate what we're doing, tell two, because it doesn't matter if you're talking good as bad, as long as what? As long as they're talking about you. As long as they're talking about you. We'll see you next time.

Hey, it's John Gafford. If you want to catch up more and see what we're doing, you can always go to thejohngafford.com where we'll share any links that we have things we talked about on the show, as well as links to the YouTube where you can watch us live. And if you want to catch up with me on Instagram, you can always follow me at thejohngafford. I'm here. Give me a shout.