Hollywood Con Queen | 9.5. The Psychology of the Scam
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Campsite Media. Hello? What is this? What do you want me to say? What is going on here? Oh, it's just a chameleon. Chameleon. Okay. You're listening to Chameleon. A production of Campsite Media. Hey, this is Josh Dean. And I'm Vanessa Coriolis. And today, we're doing something a little different. While everyone eats socially distanced Thanksgiving, we're taking a short detour from our story to bring you into the process of reporting on the infamous Hollywood con queen.

We wanted to get a better understanding of the mechanics behind different cons and the psychological patterns both scammers and marks exhibit. So we talked to two people who think a lot about con artistry professionally. They helped us understand how this master manipulator succeeded at his con queen game for so long.

Maria Kanekofa is the author of several books, one about Sherlock Holmes and one about Karna artists and one about poker players. We are going to be talking to her quite a bit about the history and analysis of con artistry. A lot of this is chronicled in her book, The Confidence Game. Thank you so much for speaking with me, Maria. Of course, I'm so happy to do it.

So tell us a little bit about yourself, where you come from and how you got interested in the dark underbelly, person to person manipulation.

My background is in both writing and psychology. So I studied as an undergrad. I studied fiction and I studied psychology. You know, it's hard to read your work and not think, you know, as a journalist, of course, you're always trying to get people to like you more, right? To give you more information. You know, it does cross one's mind. You know, am I conning this person? What does con really mean? Is it a difference of degree? Yeah.

It's such a good question and one I really wrestled with as I wrote Confidence Game because so much of the techniques that con artists use, you can see it in other people in other professions.

Of course, in journalism, it's not just persuading people and getting them to like you and opening up to you, but it's storytelling. You know, we are creating narratives of the world, and that's the heart of what the con artist does. They tell stories. They create narratives. So I really wrestled with, well, you know, isn't everyone a con artist? And so at the end, I decided that the way to really...

draw the distinction is intent. So if you're doing this, but with no malicious intention, you think you're, you know, you're doing your job, you're making the world a better place, you're trying to help people, you're not willfully trying to misrepresent anything, then not a con artist. But, you know, if that changes, then well, yes, con artist.

I mean, it's interesting to me because I started as a real shoe leather reporter and I had a hard time when I started to do more complicated stories that I couldn't just do, you know, by going to town hall or going to this place or this place and seeing somebody in person. Trying to figure out how to seduce over the phone. And what are the con artistry techniques that are specific to the phone and actually successful? Ooh.

Most things aren't actually medium specific. What I found was that every new medium expands the reach of the con artist, but doesn't actually change the essential nature of the con. The phone is a little bit more difficult because you don't have all of the in-person cues, but what you do have is a way to create urgency.

A lot of scams that exist on the phone, actually, that are phone-specific, are ones that exploit fear. So not all cons work on fear. They all work on emotion, on hot, visceral emotion. But fear is not necessary for a con to work. Phone scams are actually very prone to that exact element.

First of all, you are disrupting. You're catching them in the middle of something. So a lot of times con artists will call during times while they'll know, you know, a mother's probably picking up kids from school or making dinner or maybe even during family TV watching time. Hello?

And then they create a sense of fear and urgency. They say, you know, this is the IRS. Did you know that your taxes haven't been properly paid and you owe $2,000 or whatever it is? And in the moment, you've just been torn out of something. You're like, oh my God, this is really bad. And then there's a lot of pressure to act immediately. And people actually who wouldn't fall for this in person end up falling for it on the phone.

because they're scared and they're scared to be wrong. Right, right, right. That makes a lot of sense. So how often are con artists women and how often are they men? We don't have good numbers about con artists, period, for a few reasons. One, a lot of them are never caught. And number two, because so many of them haven't been caught yet,

We don't really know what the makeup looks like. So I like to joke that we don't know as many female con artists as male con artists because women are just much better at it and they're not caught nearly as often. And I think there might be some truth to that because a lot of the skills that make good con artists are skills that females have.

have had to develop throughout history. Their skills of listening, their skills of empathy, their skills of reading emotional circumstances and kind of the emotional tone of a room.

This is particularly in our podcast, which is about somebody conning a lot of low to mid-level players in Hollywood, trying to give them a big break, right? And it sounds like the call they've been waiting for. Yet they tell us they were depressed at the time, that they felt they were not actually succeeding and that perhaps they were not good enough to succeed. Yet you write a lot about con artists exploiting artists.

our belief in ourselves as successful, et cetera. And I was wondering if you can speak to how that all works, how those puzzle pieces fit together.

Absolutely. So what con artists are exceptionally good at is profiling people. They are the best intuitive psychologists that I've ever met. They listen incredibly well and they hear the subtext of what you're not saying. So they read you.

Josh here. Interrupting because as I listen back to this interview, I clearly hear the examples we found of the con queen using the tactics Maria is describing. Remember hearing from Heather in episode two? She was scammed into going to Jakarta for a bogus film project. I guess stroking my ego a bit and making me feel, okay, well, maybe I am legit. She was at the point in her career where a big film project like the one the con queen pitched would really boost her confidence in her craft.

Heather was feeling vulnerable about that before the con, and the con queen was exploiting that. There was always a part of me that felt a little bit like I was a fraud. And I guess if this happened to me, it would solidify my position and confirm that I wasn't an imposter. And it would prove to everyone, I guess, that I was legitimate and that I was good at this. Now back to Vanessa's interview with Maria.

They listen and then they give you the version of yourself that you already on some sort of deep down level believe in. We have a psychological bias, this optimism bias that makes us see both ourselves and the world in a slightly rosier light than it actually is. And that is what the con artist exploits. So yes, if I am...

an out-of-work actor or even a working actor, but I think I deserve better opportunities or I'm a photographer and I think that I really can do more, the con artist will see that and the con artist will jump and will tell me, you know, I see this in you. I see your promise.

Where people are in their lives can actually predict how susceptible they are to being conned. People who are in moments of transition, so maybe you've lost a job, maybe you're going through a divorce, maybe somebody has died, or maybe it was positive, you know, maybe you moved to a new city because of a new job, but your frame of reference has been disrupted. Con artists can really pounce there and they'll give you back that sense of self that you're missing.

So in terms of that, like more globally, you know, we hear a lot these days about how there are so many internet scams, right? And I assumed at first that that was about a different mode of media being used, one that's much more easy to be deceptive on and to obfuscate the self.

But I wonder, is it also about the fact that we're living in, you know, politically and nationally and internationally a very tumultuous time? How does that play into whether you're susceptible to a scam now? Yep. Your intuition is completely just dead on. Scams flourish at moments where there's

globally or locally unrest or change or just tension. So in moments of social transition on a broad level, those are kind of golden eras of con artists. The first really big stories of con artists we hear were during westward expansion and the gold rush where you have all of this virgin country. No one knows what in the world is going on. Everyone thinks that anything is possible and con artists are like, yes, I'm going to swoop in right now.

Whenever you have a natural disaster, con artists are right there. Earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases. Historically, whenever the boat is rocked, whenever there's disturbance, both positive and negative, they swoop in and people become much more vulnerable because if you think about it,

the nature of the world becomes much more in flux. And so you don't necessarily know, well, am I being stupid by thinking that this is a con? Am I being someone who's not embracing change? Am I just being kind of old and stuck in my ways? Who in the world knows? Can you tell us about the first Nigerian Prince scam? Sure. I was so excited when I found this story.

This was in the 1800s when the newspapers were just starting to rise up and you had an explosion of advertisement and some ads started popping up in newspapers. There was a lonely boy from Nigeria who was a prince and who wanted a pen pal because he lived in a castle and there was just no one there for him to play with, no one his own age. You know, this was really touching.

and letters start pouring in to the Nigerian prince. And the Nigerian prince is really excited. After a few letters he says, "You know, I have so many jewels, I don't know what to do with them, so I'd love to send them to you, my new friend. All I want in exchange is a pair of old pants and some money."

And people started sending him old pants and money. And somehow the jewels never came back. And so the post office started getting complaints. And they found out that the Nigerian prince was actually a 16-year-old boy, American boy, whose name was Bill Morrison. And that was the first Nigerian prince scam. And the person really actually said, I'm a Nigerian prince, which I found just hilarious.

Thanks to Maria Konnikova for that interview. And pick up her book, The Confidence Game, if you want to hear even more about the history of con artists. Coming up, we'll try to understand more about the psychology of scammers. That's after this break.

Hey, Chameleon listeners. It's Josh Dean here, your host of season one, Hollywood Con Queen. And I'm here today to talk to you about food, a thing I love. I also love to cook, but I rarely have time, which is why I love Factors. No prep, no mess meals. These fresh, never frozen meals are dietitian approved and ready to eat in just two minutes, which is about as long as it takes me to do this ad twice.

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855-311-0TAX. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media. Maria did an amazing job of explaining the historical context of con artistry. But now we're going to talk to an expert in scammers' psychology and tactics. Dr. Alexander Stein lives and works in New York City. He's a confidential advisor to CEOs, senior teams, and boards. He's the person you call when you're worried about being scammed at the billion-dollar level.

Unlike the Nigerian Prince scam, our fraudster wasn't in it for the money, or at least it wasn't just the money. With the con queen of Hollywood situation, a great deal of effort goes into each one of those engagements. There are much simpler and more expedient ways of making a buck. My last podcast was about a serial killer and a very smart one. And one thing that people said to me over and over again, especially cops, was the idea that

This guy was so smart. If he just applied himself to like a legitimate career, he could have been a brilliant businessman or a great salesperson. And I feel myself having that feeling again where I'm like, my God, this guy could be running a movie studio. Instead, he's doing this really weird fucking thing that's going to ultimately lead to his own self-destruction.

Right. So the ways in which people can get in their own way and take themselves down should never be underestimated. And the fraud queen of Hollywood is a perfect example of that. We don't know necessarily enough about what his true life aspirations were. It may be that this constitutes a

the pinnacle of success. And, you know, part of my approach to decode the various clues that are presented is to answer those questions by way of coming to understand who is this person and how is it relevant and helpful, actionable for us to be able to understand more of the answers. Why are they making this decision and not that one? And what is the function for that person of doing something that's so risky and

and also so harmful.

Some of the answers relate precisely to the negative outcomes. In other words, that there's something that this person is locked into that involves hurting people and living at risk himself. And whatever that is like and whatever it does for him overrides other decisions that might be able to be made that would lead to a more legitimate work path.

It's very clear to me hearing the tape of this person that it's not just about money. I'm convinced that also seeing these people's hopes and dreams smashed has to be part of it for the scam artist. Absolutely. For the con artist, that being able to toy with the prey has its own gratification. The addictive quality to it is a piece of this that, you know, once one victim has been had,

It's about being able to re-engage with whatever the high is or whatever the underlying processes are that are so deeply compelling and inescapable that it has to be done again and enter into another relationship.

When the scam gets cut off, sometimes it's because the person has gone to Jakarta and realized it was a scam. Other times there have been cases where the mark just didn't take the bait. But there are a few times I heard when the con artist seemed to back away or cut off contact was when the mark was starting to come across as almost too confident. It's all talk at this point until I see a contract.

Great. I didn't like the fact that you said it's all talk now. Well, I thought you said yesterday you respected and trusted. No, you sound different from yesterday.

He's essentially pivoting. Oh, well, you're not quite the person that I thought you were. Like, I don't sense weakness in you. So I'm going to let you go because like, you're not going to give me the satisfaction that I'm looking for, which is like this crushing disappointment of one, this opportunity that I've been offered is not real. But also the second layer of it is like, I've been had, which is a different kind of torture, right?

Yes. So fraud, by definition, pivots on betrayals and breaches of trust and coming to realize that you have been betrayed. And that's its own psychological and emotional trauma. The fraudster understood from the outset what the outcome was going to be, which is that the other person's dream was going to be utterly dashed.

and that that would bring enormous pain, perhaps the most poignant and deepest form of pain. There's a form of sadism there. He has another person's life and dreams in his hands to play with as he wishes, to manipulate as he wishes, and that he knows that when the time comes, that the other person will be absolutely devastated. And so

You know, to come upon someone who seems immune to it would not be of interest. As I seem to talk to you, you seem a little distant. Um, I'm not going to argue with your feelings. I know how I feel about it, but... Yeah, but may I ask why? What happened between yesterday and today?

Because if your main goal is basically to get the other person to be with you and to experience what you want them to, if they're saying, you know, I'm really not with you, then it's just like meeting somebody that you're not interested in having a relationship with. Nothing happened, Debbie. You just sensed something different. And it's over. More of my conversation with Dr. Stein after this quick break.

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You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media. One of the ingenious features of this plot, whether it's overt or not, is that the shame operates on a number of levels. And maybe the most effective way is that it prevents people from talking about this. Like I've talked to so many people who didn't tell anyone because they were so embarrassed. And it wasn't until people

People started talking publicly that other people came forward. And then we realized it wasn't 10 people. It wasn't 20 people. It was hundreds of people. But for a long time, he was operating with, I think, virtual impunity because nobody was talking about it because he's using the shame as a weapon. So the use of the NDA is an interesting sort of technical add-on, right?

that would ensure that the victim will remain silent. But in many regards, the use of humiliation was already effective enough. Is this something that probably more people should be seeking help with? Like is therapy often required to get people through a thing like this?

You know, the experience of being any kind of victim often requires professional help to navigate through what gets called up as an indirect consequence of the incident itself. Being manipulated into a form of behavior which is reprehensible to one's sense of self can be really psychologically lacerating and that may require professional help to deal with.

The benefit of podcasts like this, which is in part not just to shine a light on this particular case and truly how fascinating and dramatic it is, but to help destigmatize the entire system and to enable people to understand that no matter how hard it is to contend with the aftermath of having been victimized, that it's incredibly important

The more attention it gets, he clearly knows people are after him at this point. The dollar amount climbs and the number of victims climbs. Could there be any part of him that believes he could really just get away with this forever? It's very possible. He's still at large. And the people who are involved in the case are trying to develop a very sophisticated and as clear as possible approach.

in order to be able to narrow the scope of possibilities to be able to apprehend him. Right. In the best case scenario, he's not going to end up as a powerful producer of Hollywood films or as a Singaporean hotel magnate. Becoming a productive member of society is likely going to be a job that's not going to deliver this kind of power. Right.

that's a thing that you can come to terms with that people can subsume and deal with and, you know, move on from? Well, you know, you're already reconciling him to the dustbin. It isn't a foregone conclusion that that's the case. And it's perhaps part of the problem. You know, Frank Abagnale Jr., who was the, or is the character who was portrayed in Catch Me If You Can,

is an example of somebody who went on to have an entirely legitimate career and arguably does have power and influence in the world.

But, you know, part of the problem here is that this individual apparently cannot conceive of a socially productive and legitimate way of being powerful or of exercising influence over others without being harmful and destructive. And I think that's one of the key problems. A big thanks to Dr. Alexander Stein for the many conversations we had earlier this year.

We hope the side trip into the con artist's psyche helped you connect some of the dots about why and how the con queen's strategies work. Next week, we go back to our story, and we'll find out who we suspect is behind this and whether our long con will finally come to an end. That's next week on Chameleon. Chameleon is a production of Campside Media. It's developed, created, and written by Vanessa Grigoriadis and me, Josh Dean. This bonus episode was produced by Ashley Ann Krigbaum.

The executive producer is Mark McAdam. Our associate producer is Avikara Don. Fact-checking by Callie Hitchcock. Our theme song is Bad Checks by Houses. The executive producers at Campside Media are me, Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriadis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. If you enjoyed Chameleon, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. It helps other listeners like you find the show. And make sure to subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.