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There's something I haven't told you before. What? What? Camellia. Season 5. Dr. Dante. A production of Campside Media. Oh. Dr. Dante.
If somebody says the right words, promises the right things, anybody can become a victim. Since the early 2000s, millions of handwritten letters were landing at people's doors all across America. She truly believed that this was going to save her mind from going further.
into the depths of demand shut. I'm investigative journalist Rachel Brown, and I'm going to tell you the story of a scam unlike anything I've ever seen in the shape-shifting mastermind who evaded capture for more than 20 years. We never in our wildest dreams thought that these schemes were at this scale. They'd been without water for two months. All they wanted in return was whatever it was that Maria Duval was promising them.
From ITN Productions and Sony Music Entertainment, listen to The Greatest Scam Ever Written. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts to binge all episodes now or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts. When you meet a person like Ronald Dante, when you follow him through the decades after his divorce from Lana Turner, you come away with questions, a lot of them.
And probably the biggest one for me is, how did Ronald Dante become Ronald Dante? If you asked the man himself, he'd tell you that his story begins in the early 1930s in Malaysia. My father was a civil engineer in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. And he...
He and my sister and my mother got massacred by the insurgents. They were killed. Killed with five-year-old Dante watching. My mother was tortured. I mean, she died in front of me. Leaving Dante with no one but his older brother, Marshall, four years his senior. The two of them survived as orphans with nothing. Somehow, the brothers landed at an orphanage in Chicago around 1935.
This is during the Depression days, so we couldn't get anybody taking us. You know, no family would take us. And the people who ran the orphanage. They broke us apart. They broke our ribs. They broke our face. We had to beg every day for food, for money, which we went on the streets of Chicago because everybody was poor. To escape the beatings they suffered at the orphanage, they ran away to live on the street.
when Dante was only 11. - We slept under buildings, under train tracks. - Then things got worse. Dante got tuberculosis. There wasn't a vaccine widely available yet. And the prognosis when you got tuberculosis in the early 1930s was bleak. - You died, you were dead. If you had tuberculosis, you were dead. - But then a miracle, a hero, a hobo. - And there was a street hypnotist, a guy, an old guy,
Old guy on the street. He claimed he was, I think he was bullshitting me. He was an old vaudevillian guy and he was busted out living on the street. The vaudevillian hypnotist told young Dante, I can help you. Tuberculosis is not a death sentence. I have a cure. Hypnosis. Hypnosis? Yes, the street hypnotist told him. You have a superpower right there inside you. This is called mind over body hypnosis.
And it works. Works like a placebo. It works because of your mind. Your mind made it work. It works. It is the superpower of suggestion, of telling yourself you can and so you do. All you need is a skilled guide, a hypnotist, to help you unlock it.
Dante agreed to give it a try, and the street hypnotist began the induction, coaching him first to slow his breathing, to focus only on the sound of his voice. And it was here that Ronald Dante first witnessed the power of hypnosis. He cured me immediately. He cured me within a couple of, probably about a week.
And he told me that this would happen, and it did happen. And I got cured. Dante was converted. And then he taught me how to do stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy. And that's how basically I got started.
Everything after that, the fame, the money, the women, the yachts, from there, the rest just felt like an inevitability. And what an arc. A true rags-to-riches hero's journey from a massacre in Malaysia and a life on the street to the Hollywood high life and sold-out crowds and universal acclaim in Tokyo, Bangkok, Vegas, and Rome. But here's the thing.
That origin story isn't true. If you look at the census records, the year Ronald Peller turned 10, he was living in Chicago with a very alive mother, father, and no sister, but a brother. Because with Dante, everything is a game of two truths and a lie.
The first stage of hypnosis is called priming. It's the story you tell at the beginning of a show to draw people in and get them to trust you. If you don't do priming well, hypnosis doesn't work.
By all accounts, Dante shone at priming, at figuring out which story to tell you, to get you in his capable grasp. "Oh, you're an insecure movie star, tired of the spotlight? I've never heard of you or seen you before." Or, "Oh, you're skeptical about the power of hypnosis? I understand your skepticism, believe me.
But let me tell you a little story about the time I was living on the street, afflicted with tuberculosis, when a miracle happened. In nearly every profile of Dr. Dante, this tragedy-to-triumph story would appear. Reputable papers would print the Malaysian origin story. But the truth about his origins were inconveniently boring. And if there's one thing Dante can't stand, it's being perceived as boring.
So he'd make things up to impress people, to lead people on. He'd lie for fiction's sake or he'd lie for no reason at all. His whole life, he would say anything to get what he wanted. And if someone stood in his way, he would do anything to get what he wanted. Anything. And he did something stupid. Suddenly there's an attempted murder. Michael Dean was somebody who said that I tried to have him
Killed and murdered. He apparently had paid somebody to try to kill rival hypnotist Michael Dean. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, I'm Sam Mullins, and this is Dr. Dante. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media. The following interview is being videotaped at the Dade County Public Safety Department, Miami-Dade County, Florida. And sir, would you identify yourself? My name is Robert F. Proud of 30.
In 1976, a man in Florida tells a cop he has a confession to make. But instead of becoming his victim, I became his confidant, one of the people closest to him, as he recounted and was tried for his horrific crimes.
From Orbit Media and Sony Music Entertainment, listen to My Friend the Serial Killer. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts to binge all episodes now or listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media.
Ronald Dante stepped out of his marriage to Lana Turner at the dawn of the 1970s. Like six other men before him, Dante was now another blue name on the Lana Turner Wikipedia page. For the rest of his life, he would henceforth be known as Lana Turner's ex-husband, Ronald Dante.
While it might annoy most people to be culturally tethered to their ex forever, there were no tiny violins playing for Ronald Dante. Because now he had a ticket. The sheen of celebrity was on him. With his brief marriage to Lana, he had seen how many doors opened to him. And he wanted them to stay open.
So he became a serial name dropper. I used to go motorcycle riding with Clark Gable. Yeah, Sammy Davis and I went. Then I was on the Johnny Carson show. So did Elvis Presley, catch my show all the time. On most of his promotional materials, even while his ongoing bitter divorce proceedings were being dragged out, he would always mention that he was Lana Turner's husband, or sometimes Lana Turner's favorite ex-husband. He would say that he was married to Bridgette Bardot, too, though they were never married and they probably never even met.
Soaring on Lana's coattails and the coattails of all the others that Dante may or may not have met, he was soon packing clubs all over America. In Indiana, Texas. New Orleans. Nobody was as famous as I was in New Orleans. Florida, Oklahoma. Oh, then I went to Vegas. And he just went from city to city. This is Dante's third wife, Elizabeth. Fourth, if you count Bridget Bardot. Actually, no one except Dante knows the true number of how many women he married.
Anyway, Dante and Elizabeth met at a club in Fort Worth around this time, and she saw his show blowing up firsthand. Just grew and grew and grew. And before long, like the whole town, the whole city would be coming in to see his show. Dante would sweep into town, charm the pants off everyone. I love you too. I love you all. Did you love these volunteers? Were they not gorgeous? And be gone. Thank you so much, lovely people. Bye-bye. And off to another city.
leaving adoring fans in his wake and fawning headlines. The Pensacola paper said he has a magic voice that rolls around you. In Reno, they said the debonair Dante played to packed houses every time. In Indiana, they called him a hypnotist without peer. And in Arizona, they called him the man with the million-dollar eye.
Sidebar. He told everyone that he insured his eyes for a million dollars with Lloyd's of London, which he did not. A lie that should not detract from the fact that the dude did have some nice to look at eyes, but I digress.
Fort Worth Telegram called him a swarthy mesmerist and ends the article by saying they hope he'll come back and stay longer next time. They all wanted to know, when are you going to be back? Where are you going next? And a lot of people kept coming back night after night. After the show, people would hang around, hoping to meet Dante. Everybody in the audience, everybody in the audience and everybody on the stage wanted to be your best friend.
Dante was happy to indulge and was happy to make every night feel like a party. This was the days when everybody was taking all kinds of drugs. The classic 70s. Quaaludes, codeine pills. He likes dournish.
That's his drug of choice. The early 70s for Dante was a blur of hotels, planes, after parties, drugs, and money. Lots of money. The Florida Papers wrote he made enough to buy John Wayne's yacht, keep a ranch in Malibu, and fly his own custom-made airplane. This was Dante's moment. He was a star everywhere he went, the most exciting person in every room. But then very suddenly, with one phone call,
The party was over. One day, while he was on the road, Dante received bad news from San Diego about his beloved mother. And she had terminal cancer. The news about his mom's cancer hit Dante hard. She was the person he loved most, who had shaped him more than anyone else into the person he was.
But the timing wasn't great. Everything with his show was humming on all cylinders. His calendar was filled with upcoming engagements. And he'd hustled for so long to build this life of his dreams. But this was his mom. While Dante had a reputation for being aloof, for not showing up for people, he knew he had to show up for his mom. And Ron wanted to be in San Diego.
And he wanted to be there so he could be near his mother. Dante canceled his upcoming run of shows and devoted his focus to spending time with his ailing mom while he still had her. But what no one could have predicted was that this decision to be with his mom in San Diego would throw his life into chaos. Because it turned out there was a reason Dante had fashioned a life of constant movement.
The move to San Diego would reveal that Dante wasn't equipped to handle stillness. And that's what started the whole thing. The whole attempted murder thing. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media.
Dante put everything, his whole career and life on hold when he went to San Diego to care for his mom. He put his suitcase away in the closet, probably had to buy groceries for the first time in a while, and tried getting used to the feeling of waking up in the same bed in the city every day. It was all very un-Dante. But if he had to be stuck in one place, he was lucky that it was San Diego. It was a hypnotism boomtown.
Because San Diego is a hot place. There's two places that were known to be great hypnosis. The Reno, Tahoe area, which is very holistic, and San Diego. For Dante, the only problem was San Diego already had a king of hypnosis. Dr. Michael Dean. Michael Dean. Michael Dean. Well, Michael Dean was a stage hypnotist.
And he had been in San Diego for years and years and years playing at the same place. The legendary Gaslight Room. By 8:30 there will be a packed house. It's been this way for the past 17 years here. It's a track record of which no other entertainer in San Diego history can boast. And make no mistake about it, Dean is a consummate entertainer.
Michael Dean had always been a known name, but in 1973, the year before Dante rolled into town, Dean had become internationally famous for the work he was doing with a heavyweight boxer named Ken Norton, who was preparing to fight Muhammad Ali. Dean was hypnotizing Norton and working on building up his mental fortitude.
But naturally, when Ali found out that Norton had hired a hypnotist to help him work on his mental game, he did exactly what you'd expect Muhammad Ali to do. You better get yourself into a trance so you won't run away from ringside because I'm going to eat him up.
Norton, a hypnotist. That's a shame. A hypnotist is going to whoop me. And he's out in the ring sitting. He's out there in the audience. And his robot is going to say, sick him, boy, and going to whoop me. You think I'm going for that stuff? But then, the night of the fight. The fight is about to get underway. We'll develop the scoring system for you here in California. Norton comes out and breaks Muhammad Ali's jaw in the first round. That right hurt Ali.
And then, when the fight goes to the judges' scorecards, he shocks the world by winning a split decision. Dr. Michael Dean had helped lead a San Diego fighter to not only beat Muhammad Ali, but he did it in San Diego. He was a king in that town.
And while Dr. Dean's work with Norton should have been seen as a win for hypnotists everywhere, a mainstream case in which the power of hypnotherapy was made clear for all to see, Dante wasn't impressed. Dr. Michael Dean's prominence both in San Diego and the hypnotism community had always irked Dante.
The two of them had a bit of history. They'd known each other from back when they started out at the same time in Chicago and used to play in some of the same clubs. ♪
"Ron was friends with him. They started out as friends." "I got Michael Dean some of his best jobs." When Michael Dean was trying to make his transition from the world of clinical hypnosis to the stage, Bobby claims that Dante tried to help Dean with his act. "He gave Michael Dean his whole show, basically, saying just follow this format. It isn't like therapy. On the show, you have to create a moment and guide them into it." So when Dante arrived in town for a to-be-determined amount of time to care for his mom,
He approached Michael Dean and was like, "I'm going to be in town for a while. Can you help me out? Let me share your venue for just a few months and then I'm out of here."
Brown said, just give it up for the summer or something. No, this is my room. I built it up. It's my room. Dante, in a tough spot, said, I know, yes, of course, it's your room. It's going to stay a hypnosis room. I just work it like, you know, someone fills in for you and it's going to still be your room. Dean made it very clear that them sharing a venue was never going to happen. He was afraid of me. He was afraid that I would...
I'd take away his jobs. He was mad at him because he couldn't work in Diego. I said, why didn't you open your own? I said, a town is only good for one hypnotist. It's only good for one. There's one God and that's all there is to it. This clear no from Dean made Dante furious. And it made him determined. If a town really is good for one hypnotist, Dante would be the one hypnotist. Because he knew he was better than Dean.
Even though they cut their teeth at the same time in the same place, as far as hypnotists go, the two couldn't be more different in almost every way. Where Dante would happily give you his heavily embellished resume at every opportunity, here's Dean being interviewed on TV. Are you the best hypnotist in the world today? No. It says world's foremost hypnotist. That is what we call in advertising a lie.
This is called puffing. If I really believe it, then they will cart me off in a straitjacket. Dr. Michael Dean was an actual doctor. He had a PhD from Northwestern University in general semantics. Whereas Dante was a real doctor too, but only in the sense that he supposedly went to court and legally changed his first name to Doctor. Which I think is a detail we all need to bask in the warmth of for a moment.
He changed his name to Doctor because he saw other hypnotists like Michael Dean with these fancy titles. Professor so-and-so, but you know, whatever it was. And so I decided to be called Doctor. I thought it was more prestigious. But the more substantive difference between them, the thing that drove Dr. Dante crazy, was that Dr. Dean got all the glory, when in Dante's mind, he had none of the talent, none of the dazzle that Dante had in spades. He had a PhD. He was very smart.
But he didn't do a show like Ron. He just did a show. A very boring show, but not really doing anything special. Dr. Dean came to hypnosis in a very different way. He was a psychologist who'd really studied hypnosis, could do the therapy, but doing stage hypnosis is different. He didn't have Dante's skill and style.
And then when Michael Dean refused to share his venue, all these petty differences between contemporaries suddenly erupted into the great San Diego hypnotist turf war of 1973.
You had two young entertainers, much like today's rock stars, because in those days, those hypnotists were like rock stars. If you see Michael Dean, he sold out San Diego, and Ron was selling out everywhere back then. In one corner, style. In the other, substance. It got out of hand. Back and forth, they would do things to each other. And he was always afraid to do a show in front of me. He said, I'd steal his show. Dante retaliated by going to the papers and publicly accusing Dean of stealing his show.
Which Dean did not take well. Somebody came around stage and threatened to shoot him. And when Dante would call volunteers on stage, he claimed Dean had planted saboteurs in his audience. He would have people come in from his show to my show, and he would have them laugh while they were being put under a trance. I would see people going under, under, under, and I'd say, going deeper and deeper asleep, and they would go, "Ahhhhhh!"
They're laughing. It got ugly. At one point, Dean and Dante even got into it over a woman. You're getting into the sex world now. You're getting into relationships. On and on, back and forth. With these two, there was no possibility of working it out. No chance of a truce or handshake. With two men with their egos and ambitions, it was clear that this spat would escalate until it reached its obvious conclusion. And it got blew out of...
Ron wanted to, he wanted somehow to figure out a way to get Michael Dean out of there. And eventually, he did. Dante had always had a fire inside of him. The flames were kept inbounds before by life on the road, the quench of freedom and fawning of fans. Dante was a man of his word.
But what happens when you take the atomic energy of Ronald Dante and you cage him in a small space? And then you douse him with the kerosene of grief of watching his mother slowly die while a nemesis is trying to ruin him. What happens then? His brother Marshall called my dad and said, finally happened. He pushed too far on something. He did it this time. He's in trouble. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media. You're listening to Chameleon from Campside Media.
In January of 1974, Ronald Dante was charged with attempted murder in the second degree. Nine and a half months later, the trial began. And when you live by the press, you die by it too.
Dante had courted the media for so long and so well, the story of Lana Turner's ex-husband was covered in papers all over the world. The prosecution's case hinged on a guy who worked at a club in Arizona who we'll call Rick. Dante performed regularly at the club where Rick was employed, and one night they were hanging out after Dante's show when the conversation turned to a hypnotist in San Diego who had established himself as a problem.
A problem that needed to be dealt with. When the moment was right, Dante asked Rick if he might be willing to be the one doing the dealing. Once it became clear to Rick that Dante was serious and a dollar amount was thrown out there, Rick said, "I'm not the guy you're looking for, but I'll help you find the right man for the job." Dante said, "Great."
Dante, who prided himself on his ability to read people, the one time it really mattered, read this guy wrong. Rick was working at the bar at that point, but before that, he'd been a cop. So instead of looking for a hitman for Dante, he took this story to the county attorney's office.
Rick told the court that the hit was planned to have been carried out in San Diego. Dante told him where he could find Dean, and he told Rick cryptically that if he did a clean job of it, Dante had two other contracts for him as well. All of this testimony was pretty damning for Dante, especially coming from someone like an ex-cop.
But then when Dante's defense attorney was given the floor, he started bringing up a parade of character witnesses to tell the jury a little bit about the type of person this ex-cop turned bar staff, Rick, really was.
And the story is this guy couldn't be a cop anymore. He got in some kind of trouble. But he was a mean cop. He used to go around and he used to hit drunks and he used to bash them. He just loved hitting people. Rick's former boss, his old police chief, confirmed as much on the stand. He told the jury he dismissed Rick from the force for, quote, distorting facts,
being unreliable and refusing to obey orders. Another coworker of Rick's called him a liar and said that he wouldn't believe him even if he was under oath. An old acquaintance of his claimed that Rick had threatened his life several times and once put a gun to his wife's head and threatened to shoot her.
This dismantling of Rick's character was a clear point for the defense.
Michael Dean was sworn in and made his best effort at salvaging the case. He went up and he said, "My name is Dr. Michael Dean and I am a PhD. I'm the only hypnotist with a doctor's degree in hypnosis." It's easy to imagine Dean really leaning into his credentials here, sticking it to the fake doctor. Dean testified that he'd spent most of his career trying to stop Dante from stealing his act.
He said that Dante had followed him to Hawaii one time and watched his show every night for three weeks, that he had to bar Dante from the Gaslight Club in San Diego a year earlier because he'd been following him around the country trying to steal his act.
He claimed that Dante's whole business model was to show up in a town Dean had just played, find the hotel manager, and tell them that he would perform the same type of show for much less money. And then by the end of his testimony, Dr. Dean had broken down into literal sobs. He made a spectacle of himself in the courtroom. And he cried like a baby. He was crying all over the place and Ron was like, do you believe that son of a bitch? It's all an act. I couldn't believe this guy cried like a baby.
They had to get help. They had to bring oxygen for him.
And in fact, Ron had said, he said, I never saw him that good on the stage than the day he was on the stand. And then when it was Dante's turn, the jury heard a defense built entirely upon his drug use. His defense was that he was loaded on barbiturates and didn't remember or know what he was doing. Jennifer Sharp, a reporter who covered Dante. I mean, they just totally portrayed him as this like really...
- Intense drug addict. - His lawyer said, "You can't hold him accountable. This is a case of temporary insanity."
On the stand, Dante testified that he started taking pills more than 10 years earlier to overcome insomnia, a stutter, and a nervousness that made it difficult for him to perform before audiences. He claimed to have been in such a state the night in question that he had no recollection of the meeting whatsoever. And then the defense said, you don't have to take Dante's word for it.
Here are two separate psychiatrists who will testify that Dante's mental capacities had been impaired through prolonged use of pills.
And then onto the stand stepped who I've come to think of as Bizarro Dante, his big brother, Marshall. Marshall was the exact opposite of Ron. Marshall and Ron's childhood, as we've come to understand it, was a commonplace one. Their parents split when they were young. The brothers stayed close their whole lives, but Ron was raised by his mother and his brother Marshall was raised by their father.
And it was there that their two paths diverged, sliding doors style. Marshall became a completely different person because the father was completely different. Bobby Gold says that Dad Peller was a quiet, hardworking businessman. So at Dad's house, Marshall was learning... Analyze, analyze, be quiet. Don't tell anybody your business. Mom Peller, on the other hand... Whereas Ron was taken by...
Little Miss Hollywood. She threw dinners and she loved everybody and everybody loved Betty Osborne, which was his mother's name. One of those types. She's greeting everybody. Everybody knew her.
She threw all these benefits, she threw these parties, and always cheerful, always hugging everybody. Sound familiar? So at mom's house... Ron's learning, here's how you greet somebody. Notice how they're feeling. Don't let that person stand in the corner not talking to anybody. All those sensitivities. As such, little Ronald Peller grew up to be Dr. Ronald Dante. And his brother Marshall grew up to be an extremely successful, legitimate businessman. By Bobby's account, a billionaire.
Marshall approached business in a completely different way than Dante. His empire was built above board, within the bounds of the laws that Dante would so often roll his eyes at. As different as they were, they were always close. For Marshall's entire life, he'd act as a safety net and help his little brother out of the many binds he'd find himself in. None more serious than this murder charge.
Marshall testified that for the past year and a half, he'd noticed a stark change in his little brother. He said that as the condition of their mother grew steadily worse, so did Ron's mental health.
He testified that Ron had become increasingly abstract and incoherent in their phone calls. Marshall said, quote, "He couldn't carry on a conversation. He would cry on the phone. He had blanks in his memory. And he'd often change topics in the middle of a conversation and talk about things with no meaning." End quote. Jennifer Sharp again. And it was also in the period that his mother was dying, he was falling apart and becoming a drug addict.
And maybe with a delegitimized star witness in Rick, an extremely credible witness in Marshall, maybe that would have been enough. But unfortunately for Dante, there were tapes. After Dante tried to hire Rick to kill Dean, and Rick went to the county attorney's office, a plan was hatched to have a fake hitman wear a wire to see if they could get Dante to request the hit once more, but this time into a microphone. ♪
rick told dante i found a guy who will do the deed and they set up a meeting in a strip mall parking lot at dawn on new year's day 1974. the tape was played in court and before the jury heard the tape bobby claims you know the first part of the trial ron was being ronnie had people smiling and waving at him from the jury box and he'd smile away adoring fans as always until they pushed play in this trial nothing happens
The case doesn't go anywhere until they play a tape that should have never been on there. In the recording, the undercover cop is heard saying, well, that's up to me. If you want the dude killed, that's my business. Dante replies, yeah. And then the cop says, yeah, well, it'd be cool however, however we did it.
Dante says, "Then I won't worry how you do it. I know you've done it lots of times." And then at some point, Dante gives the undercover cop $1,400 with a promise of another $3,000 later.
Again, the quality of the recording was so poor that even with the accompaniment of the transcript, it was hard for the jury to be certain that the transcript was 100% correct. Unfortunately for Dante, there was one section of the tape that was crystal clear, in which he was talking about stuff that had nothing to do with Michael Dean, but had everything to do with Dante's character.
When they chose to play this section of the tape in court, Michael Dean's lawyer had to have known that it would sway a jury. Here's Dante in an outdoor interview many years later. They got a tape of me saying why I married Lana Turner, because it was only an ego trip that I married her. He tells the undercover cop in the tape, I married her on a bet with my manager. And then, ever the talker, he goes on.
saying, well, you know, she was just, you know, a bitch or whatever she was. Lana Turner? She was boring. A do-nothing drunk. And suddenly all the women in the jury wouldn't look at him. Put a hit out on a man? Maybe we can let that go. But insult Lana Turner? Too far. The case rested. About a week later, the jury went into deliberation.
And who knows if it was the Lana slander or the, you know, Dante saying into a microphone, I will pay you to kill Michael Dean not once, not twice, but three times. But whatever it was, 17 hours later, the verdict was in. Guilty of attempted murder.
Dante failed to surrender himself to the authorities, so there was a week-long manhunt before they found him, and when they did, prison. I believe it was Arizona State Penitentiary, a really rough prison. And it was over. Or it would have been over if he was anyone other than Dr. Dante. Because what seemed like the end of something was really the beginning of something much bigger.
Next time on Dr. Dante. He was always thinking of different ways to make money. Why are we doing this? We're going to these states making $50,000 a day. Well, Bobby, it's just too easy.
Chameleon is a production of Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. Dr. Dante was written and hosted by me, Sam Mullins. It's produced by Aboukar Adan and edited by Karen Duffin. Our associate producer is Tanita Rahmani. Original music, sound design, and mixing by Garrett Tiedemann.
Additional music by APM and Blue Dot Sessions. Fact-checking by Lauren Vespoli. Our consulting producer is Bradley Beasley. Special thanks to Johnny Kaufman and to our operations team, Doug Slaywin, Aaliyah Papes, and Destiny Dingle. The executive producers at Campside Media are Josh Dean, Matt Scher, Vanessa Grigoriadis, and Adam Hoff.
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Welcome to another round of Drawing Board or Miro Board. Today we discuss technical diagramming with systems architect Maya. Let's go. First question. You've spent 10 hours slogging over a sequence diagram that should have taken 5. Drawing Board or Miro Board? Drawing Board. And if I'm being honest, Miro would probably cut that time down by half. You know, with its AI tools and ready-to-go templates.
Next, your diagrams become so bulky, it's more complex than the solar system. But all it takes is a few clicks and... It's Miro. I've used those technical shape packs way too many times. Now, the final question. Everyone's brought in, but you have to make all these tasks all the time.
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