The Six Types of Working Genius with Patrick Lencioni
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What's up, everybody? This is Russell. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. I got a really cool interview today for you guys. As you guys know, I own a company called understand.me.

If you go to understand.me, you can go register there and you can take a whole bunch of personality profiles for free. And it creates a page that tells you all about yourself that you can give to somebody when you're, um, you're applying for a job or you're going to go on a date with somebody. Or if, uh, you're hiring people, I have all my employee or pre employees, everyone, uh, go to understand.me, create an account. And then from there, it pops out a profile page. It shows me all of their, their profile tests from discs, uh, you know, 16 personalities, Enneagram, strength finder, all that kind of stuff. It's really, really cool. But anyway, um,

As you know, I'm mildly obsessed with personality tests and profiling, things like that. And during today's podcast interview, I had a chance to meet up with a guy who, it's crazy, I read his books way back when I first got started in my business. His name is Patrick Lencioni, and he, we'll mention his books a little bit on the podcast interview, but most of what we're talking about, a new assessment he put together called The Six Types of Working Geniuses.

which I'd never heard about prior to this interview and it was really, really cool. I took it for myself, a bunch of people on my team, and it was really cool to help you and your teams make sure people were working in their zones of genius.

and getting people out of the zones that are not their genius so they can actually be successful. And anyway, it was a really fascinating interview, really, really cool thing, something I want to eventually add into the Understand Not Me platform. But for right now, I want you guys to listen to this interview and then I would recommend going and taking the assessment for yourself and your teams and just start learning more about everyone's zone of genius and where they should be focusing on. Anyway, so I hope you enjoy this podcast interview with Patrick Lincione.

Hey, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today, I've got a really fun interview to share with you guys from someone who I first read about them, I think 17, 18 years ago as I was building my company. I'll talk about what the books are and stuff like that. Some really good books about leadership, how to build teams and how to make your teams actually function, how to grow a company through teams and

Um, and anyway, I've been following him for a long, long time. And I wanted to do this interview because he came out with a brand new assessment and you guys all know, I am mildly obsessed with personality profiles and assessments. And this is a new assessment. It's called working genius. And it's the six types of working genius. It's figuring out exactly like where you should be working, where you fit. We just finished the interview. It was really cool because we talked about how, if you've read the book, good to great talks about finding the right people, uh,

getting the right people on the bus. And then from there, putting it in the right seats. And this is all about figuring out like a map to make sure that people working with you are in the right seats on the bus to make them successful, to help you grow your companies. And it was just a fascinating interview. We went deep into this new assessment, what it means, how you can use it for yourself, but more importantly, how you can use it for your teams to get people working happier, having more joy. And the,

the end result of that is you start growing your company a lot faster, which is really fun. So if you want to learn how to increase your company's sales and traffic and conversions, all this stuff without actually working on the funnels, but specifically building out your team and getting your team working in the right roles, this interview, something's gonna be really fascinating for you. So that said, uh, when, uh, we're gonna jump into the interview right now. I just finished with Patrick Lencioni.

Hey, this is Russell, and I'm here today with my new friend, Patrick Lencioni, and someone who I've been watching for a long time. In fact, I remember when I first got into business, man, almost 20 years ago, and I went from me being the sole entrepreneur to trying to hire a team. One of the very first books someone recommended to me was this book called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. I remember way back then reading it as I was first trying to build my team, and now I look, you know, I fast forward,

18, 20 years later, whatever it is, we have a company now of 400 employees and all sorts of stuff. And I've learned a lot from him indirectly. And this is our first time actually hanging out and talking together. One thing we'll be talking about is a new assessment that he's put together. And I am mildly obsessed with assessments. As my audience obviously knows, I have a company where we just aggregate assessments. And so I took this last night and I don't understand it yet. I'm pumped to find out more about it and talk about team building, a whole bunch of other things. So anyway, I'm excited for today. Patrick, how are you doing?

Hey, I'm doing great. It's wonderful to be with you, Russell. And I love that you just took it. So we're going to debrief it for your audience and you and explain it in the process, because I'm also a junkie for assessments, and I've been using them in my practice for years. And then four years ago, we discovered this new model. We came up with this new model, and it's unique. And so that's why we're very excited. It was by accident. We didn't

think we were going to do that. So I'm so excited to go over this with you. I'm excited too, because I was reading through, you said it's 20% personality, 80% productivity, which is unique from other assessments. So I'm excited. So you probably don't know, but I have a company called understand.me and it's a site where someone signs up for free account and then they can take all the

Not all of them yet. This is not in there, but I want to add this one now too. But they take DISC and Enneagram and 16 personalities and they take them all and it creates a profile page where you can go see. So if someone goes to understand.me slash Russell Brunson, you can see my DISC, my Enneagram, my strengths, like all my stuff's in there. So I'd love to talk to you maybe offline about adding this. I love that. I didn't realize that, although I think I saw that years ago. I didn't know that was yours. That's fantastic. Yeah.

It's been fun because I started, and it's probably similar to you, I started hiring a team. I used to hire off of resumes and then people were like,

paid people to write really good resumes and they came in there horrible and i had a coach who was like instead of uh interviewing people based on resumes to have them take these tests and so we started giving them disc tests and stuff and so what happens now is i know the profile of my dream customer or my dream candidate that would have them take these disc profiles and all the other ones and then we only interview people who we don't look at resumes only interview people who've gotten through that filter because otherwise we're going through all this it's

stuff that is not real. Like people are relying on their resumes, you know, and it's saved, I guess, changed our whole culture. It's got us the right people faster. And so I'm,

obsessed with these. I'm excited to find out more about this one specifically because yeah, it's about working and that kind of stuff. So yeah. Yeah. So before we get into the assessment, so I love this step back in time actually, because again, my first introduction to you was through the book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team. So anyone from my world who may not be familiar with you, I love just like some backstory of you, but also like specifically your work with teams and leadership and things like that. I'd love to hear more about.

Yeah, yeah. The real quick. So I got out of college and I got a job at a company called Bain & Company as a management consultant. And it was all about analysis and data and strategy and finance and all that. And I remember when I was there thinking, but the problem is,

our clients aren't using this because they don't know how to work together. There was the human side of business was getting in the way of the analytics. And I thought everybody's trying to be smarter, but what they're not is they're not functional. They're not healthy, they're dysfunctional. And so I had a couple more jobs and I was into this field. And then I started my own company and I said, I want to help CEOs, it was mostly growth companies, figure out the human side of business so they can take advantage of all the intellectual side.

And that's when we started the table group almost 28 years ago. And we had no idea how fast it was going to take off. And so I wrote my first book. And then a couple of years later, we wrote the five dysfunctions of a team. And what we realized is that every CEO I worked with said, you know, we're pretty smart. We know how to do things, but we don't know how to work together. Yeah.

And because I was not a touchy-feely guy, I came from kind of the analytical side of things. I could speak to them about that in a credible way because they didn't want somebody to come in and hug and hold hands and get naked and all that. They wanted somebody who understood human dynamics in the context of getting things done. So that's how I got into this field.

It mostly by accident. And the books I wrote were based on me just going out to clients and seeing things and writing a book about it. And it just kept growing and growing by the grace of God. And so 28 years later, we got all these books and this stuff. And we had no idea that we were going to be in the assessment business until four years ago by accident in the middle of COVID week.

came up with out of desperation myself, this idea to explain me. And then we realized, oh my gosh, this is universal. And so that's kind of how we get to today. Interesting. So with assessments, I'm curious before you guys put this together, what were the assessments you were using with your teams and with employees and stuff like that? Myers-Briggs or the 16 personality types was the one we use most. Although we were very familiar with all of them. And so we got, we know DISC and we know StrengthsFinder and all the other different things. And we have some of our favorites. There's good things about all of them.

But none of them were really about how you specifically go about getting things done on a daily basis. Like how do you get work done? So I'm an ENFP and then high I, secondary D on disk, and you know all these things. But what I didn't realize is I was coming to work frustrated after 20 years of working in a company with people I like doing the things I like, but I was doing the wrong kind of work.

I didn't know why. And somebody and I was getting grumpy and and people and somebody said to me, why, why, why do you get grumpy and then happy and then grumpy and then happy? And I was like, I don't know, but I want to figure it out. And so I sat down with a whiteboard pen and a whiteboard and I said, what is going on and when am I grumpy and why? And we realized that there were these six different activities that were required in every single kind of work.

And I was doing every day I was coming to work and getting asked to do things I didn't like to do. And it was burning me out. And so we figured that out. And then somebody saw the model that night that we came up with it. And they shared it with one of their CEO clients the next day. And the guy had tears in his eyes. And he was like, well, this explains everything for me. And so we said, wow, maybe there's something universal. This isn't just me.

We put together an assessment over the next three months, just released it. And just last week, more than a million people have now taken this. Wow. And it is growing faster than even the five dysfunctions of a team. This is growing faster than anything I've ever done, Russell.

Wow, that's really cool. A million people have taken it. That's insane. Yeah, and we're just a small company. We didn't do a lot of marketing. We're starting to now because people are like, this is changing our companies and changing our lives. We thought we were doing a tool

It was just helping people understand themselves. But what we realized is when a whole team understands it, it changes everything about the way they get things done and their productivity goes up, their morale goes up. People are borrowing and begging from one another and doing things that they're meant to do. And they're getting out of doing the things that they shouldn't be doing. It is a crazy productivity tool, which was an accident. We thought it was just we were trying to help people understand themselves.

So fascinating. So I'm excited. Like I said, I took it last night and I started going through that. I got the assessment for it. I was going through it all, but I would love, first off, so I can understand, but I think for other people too, when they start taking this to be able to have some kind of framework as they're going through a lens to understand this. So what's the best way to kind of dive into some and look at it together? Well, let me, let me really quickly run through the six different kinds of work. Awesome.

Because once you know what those six are, then it's a lot easier to go, oh, and people are naturally like, I want to know what my geniuses are. Because here's the deal. There's six different kinds of work that need to be done in any kind of a project, whether you're launching a company or rolling out a new product or just managing something or building a house or going on vacation, planning a family vacation, any endeavor.

involves six different activities, but only two of those activities are what we call your working genius. So Russell, two of those six things you can do and you get joy and energy out of it and you could do it for 12 hours and be excited and not tired, not burned out.

Two of them are what we call your working competency, which you're okay at it and it doesn't crush you and you can do it for a while. Two of them, the last two are your working frustration, whereas when you do those, it absolutely drains you of joy and energy. And I like to say it's like your working genius is like a Yeti mug. You pour coffee into it and screw the lid on. It'll stay hot all day. Your working competency is like a Starbucks cup. You pour the coffee into it, put a lid on it. It'll hold the heat for a while, you know.

You're working frustration is like pouring it into a coffee cup that has a hole in the bottom of it. It just drains out right away.

And here's the deal. If you don't know what your working geniuses are and what your working competencies and frustrations are, it's tough to love your work. It's tough to put somebody in the right job. We've had people that were good fits for a company's culture but were failing because they were put in the wrong role. And when you realize what your working geniuses are, everything changes. So that's kind of the idea is that nobody's good at all six of these things.

So I assume when you're building a team or a project, it's probably the same thing. Like we need to have all six of these people for this project to lift off. Otherwise something's going to be falling around, right? Exactly. And so many teams take it and they go, no wonder we failed at that. No wonder we're good at this, you know? Yeah. So here's the six things really fast. And I'll do it in the order that they generally occur in theory. And it goes from like 50,000 feet up in the clouds to five feet on the ground, landing the plane. So the first one is the genius of wonder.

People that have the genius of wonder, and this is not one of yours, they just like to sit around. I mean, not just sit around, but they ponder things and ask questions. They're curious and they're constantly saying, is there a better way? I wonder if people are happy with that. Is this the best way? And nobody who has this genius, my wife has this genius, nobody who has this genius gets rewarded for it when they're young. Their teachers are like, hey, why are you daydreaming? And why are you still asking questions? Just do what we tell you to do.

But every new project, every, any activity starts with somebody saying, you know, like that woman said to me, Amy, she said, why are you like this, Pat? Why do you get so bummed out? And I was like, I don't know. But you have to ask the question. The genius of wonder is a real genius. And when a team doesn't have it, oftentimes they miss things. Then nobody's asking the question, do you think our customers are happy? Or is this really the best way we can do it?

So the genius of wonder is where it starts. The next genius is the genius of invention. You have this, and so do I, Russell. And that is – that's people who get joy and energy. And by the way, this is all about joy and energy. They get joy and energy out of coming up with new ideas. They just do it naturally. They were born this way. It's like people say, hey, I wish there was a better way to do this, and you go –

Okay, let me try. There's 22 ways I can do that. Exactly. And it's just, for us, that's a God-given source of joy and energy. Now, what's amazing about this is we tend to think that other people probably like things the way we do. But there's that old saying, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

There are people when I say, oh, I would love to come up with an idea. They're like, don't make me do that because I would hate my job. And I'm thinking, you're kidding, but that sounds so fun. And they're like, not to me. So invention, somebody wonders about something and asks the question. Then the inventor comes along and goes, oh, let me solve that. Let me try. Let me try. Interesting. Two wonders they don't ever solve. They just create the questions. Yeah.

Unless their second letter, unless their genius is W and I. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. Right. Interesting. So there are people with just W and they wonder, one of my sons who works for me, he has W and he'll say, and he has another one and he'll say something. I'll go, so what do you think? He goes, I don't know. This is one of my least favorite things, but I know that that won't work, but don't ask me to come up with a better idea. I think about my teams, like as someone who's,

does invention, I probably get frustrated. So wonders down. It's like, so solve this. Why are you not solving this? And like, that's not my job. My job is to be aware of it. That's interesting. I can see how like that can cause dysfunctions between the two. If you don't understand that, you know what I mean? Exactly. And when you understand what it is, you're like, oh, I'm not going to blame you for that. See, that's the thing about working genius. It helps us avoid judging people unfairly or feeling guilty about ourselves unfairly, which people do all the

Yeah.

People with discernment have great gut feel, instincts. They have pattern recognition. They see things that other people don't see because – and it's not magic. It's just the way they look at things. They're good at seeing patterns. They're integrative thinkers. And so these are the kind of people you talk to and you ask them a question, and they always have a good response. A woman in my office, I like to talk about her, Tracy, she has great discernment.

And she edits my books. She wasn't a book editor. She didn't study this, but she'll read a chapter of my books. My books are all fiction, you know, and she'll go, that doesn't work. And I know she's right.

And I'll say, why? And she goes, I don't know. It just does. That character doesn't ring true to me. And she just sees it. Hey, my wife and I will be saying, should we refinance our house? And we'll always say, ask Tracy. And it's not because she knows a lot about finance. She just has really good judgment. Like, I don't know. It doesn't seem like this is the right time. Hey, where should we go on vacation? Tracy always has a great idea. She has great instincts. And our company relies on that.

We go to Tracy and go, well, if we haven't run it by Tracy yet, we probably shouldn't feel confident that it's the right thing because she just has incredible gut feel. And it's a real genius. It's not magic. It's a genius.

Okay, so WID. Now we're getting a little closer to the ground. Next comes galvanizing, which is your other genius, by the way, Russell. And galvanizers are people who love to wake up in the morning and rally the troops and get people excited and remind people they are motivators and they're good at selling in the truest sense of the word, like convincing people and moving things forward.

And they get joy and energy out of doing that. I don't. And I was doing it every day at work for 20 years. I'd come to the office ready to I and D and people would go galvanize us. And I'd get grumpy and I'd be like, oh, do I have to say it again? Because I felt guilty for doing it.

There was a guy on my team who loves galvanizing. It's one of his geniuses. I said, you're the new chief galvanizing officer. He goes, am I old enough to do that? He goes, it's not about your age. I've been here that long. I said, you're a genius at it. You love doing it. You're going to rally the troops every morning around our goals. He's like, I would love that.

Yeah. So his genius, which is his joy and energy, we might as well let people work in their areas of genius. Yeah. And we might as well minimize the time we have to work outside of it, even though we all have to do things outside of our genius. So so it goes W.I.D.G. Now we're getting closer to landing the plane.

And we get to enablement. When you galvanize people, Russell, somebody has to say yes. You want a response for somebody to say, yes, I will do that. I will volunteer. People with enablement, which is a good word. It's not enabling a disorder or something like that. Enablement are people that come alongside it and say they actually get joy and energy out of saying yes and helping people on their terms.

There are people in the world who have a God-given genius to say yes, they volunteer quickly, and they love to help. And they don't want to be at the center of it. These are glue on teams. These are the kind of people that are like, absolutely, if you think it's a good idea, I'm going to help you with this. What can I do? Now, I'm a follower of Jesus and a kind person, I think, but I don't have a genius of this.

So when people ask me for help, I want to help them in the way I like to help them. I'm not good at just going, yeah, what do you need from me? I'll do whatever you need. So that's a genius. And teams that don't have people with the genius of enablement really struggle to get things going because nobody wants to jive in and help. The last genius is called the genius of tenacity. And these are people that it's not about helping. It's about finishing.

They want to get it done. They like to see it pushed across the finish line, plow through obstacles, hit the numbers. They actually don't rest until something's finished. Now,

Russell, I have no tenacity at all. If I didn't have people on my staff around me that had more tenacity than me, I would have written zero books instead of 13. Because halfway through writing the book, I want to move on to the next one. The next idea. And people are like, no, we're going to finish this. And they make me stay with it because my natural inclination is to move on to the next thing quickly. Interesting.

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Hey, this is Russell Brunson. And I want to jump in really quick to share with you a new assessment I found out that is insanely cool. You guys know I'm obsessed with personality profiles and assessments, but this one is different because not only does it help you understand yourself, but more importantly, especially for us who are entrepreneurs, it helps us understand our employees, our teams, and get people sitting on the right seats in the bus so they can get more stuff done.

I just had a chance to interview Patrick Lanchoni talking specifically about this new assessment they created called Working Genius. And the Working Genius is awesome. Like this test, I had actually blocked out an hour to take it because I was so excited for the new assessment. And it only took me like 10 minutes or less to get it done. Yet, even though it takes only 10 minutes, like you can actually apply this immediately. I took it for myself. I had my team take it. And what's cool about it is from there, we figured out exactly what people's Working Geniuses are.

And that's important because if you're building a team or a company, you got to figure out, make sure that you have first off the right people, but make sure the right people are sitting in the right seats on the bus. And this is what this assessment will teach you how to do. Now, normally this assessment, you can go to workinggenius.com and there's two G's in the middle, workinggenius.com, but I got you a 20% discount on

on the assessment, which is only $25. So don't stress. It's not an expensive test at all. But you get a 20% discount off when you put in the keyword secrets at checkout. So go to workinggenius.com. Again, two Gs, working genius, two Gs in the middle, workinggenius.com. And then use promo code secrets, S-E-C-R-E-T-S at checkout. You get 25% off. But then go take the test. Again, it takes you 10 minutes.

But even in a 10 minute session, you will get something that is so insanely valuable to help you understand yourself, to make sure you're working in a spot that's going to give you the most joy, number one. But then number two, it's going to make sure that you are with your teams, getting them in the right seats as well. So anyway, I love this assessment. Go check it out at workinggenius.com and enter the promo code secrets for 20% discount. Take this test for yourself and for your team. And I promise you, it'll change the working dynamics amongst everybody and help your company to grow. So those are the six things that,

And you can just imagine if you're missing one. And like I have, you had, how many people did you have take this? Four of, yeah, four of your people, right? Well, I'm looking at your team results right now. And I, there's a couple here where you have, of those four, and I know you have 400 employees, so these aren't the only ones. But like of those four, if you're a team, there's a few areas where you have nobody with that genius. Yeah.

Right. In fact, there's only one area where you only have one, no genius. And so you look at that and you go, oh yeah, I can totally see. I was with a team last night, a priest and his executive council at a church. And we did this and I spent an hour with them going through their results and their minds were blown because they're like, oh, no wonder you frustrate me. I always thought you were tweaking me, but you just hate doing that. And he's like, the priest was like, I hate doing that. And they're like, well, we can help you with that.

So it's nuts. It's so cool. I'm excited now. Now I understand it better. Again, we had some of our team, but it'd be cool. Like we have our departments, like the marketing team and some people are working together. It'd be fascinating to see the, like what the, where it all falls amongst each of the individual teams. And then as a company as a whole as well. Now, by the way, you're tight, by the way, you're an IG, right?

which is a, which is called the, this is the, each type, each of the 15 combos, because there's 15, have a label we do just, it really helped people understand. And you're the evangelistic innovator.

So you come up with new ideas and love to get people excited. Yes. Yeah. That sounds like me. And anybody that knows you will go, that's him. Yeah. It totally makes sense of, you know, and I look at the picture of you on here, the marketing secrets picture. And it's like, you're, that's you. You're excited to share things with people and go, you can do this. Yeah. You know?

And that's my whole life is like, we create, you know, we launched ClickFunnels and I'm the marketing guy. We all write a book from park. Yeah. Like that's my favorite thing. I love company ideas, creating the thing and then going out there and selling it and letting the world know why it's important. So exactly. Now here, I have a great marketing story for you. So when this first came out, a CEO took this and he had a woman who was in charge of sales.

who she was an E and a T, which is the last two. That's the implementation part, the enablement and tenacity. Those are the ones closest to the ground. So that meant she pleased her employees. She pleased her customers. She made her numbers. She was really good at responding to the needs of people and getting things done. Beautiful. The market changed and they needed a new sales strategy because the old one wasn't going to work anymore.

And the CEO went to her and this was a cultural fit. This woman was a great performer, one of his executive team members and said, okay, you need to come up with a new sales strategy. And she tried and she tried and she tried and she couldn't. And she didn't know why. And the CEO said, I was going to let her go. I thought, well, if she's the head of sales and she can't come up with a new sales strategy, they did the working genius. And she was an ET. She had no wonder and no invention.

So she hated like going maybe what would be a better way and coming up with an idea. So they found a marketing guy that had invention. And they said, will you come to our next sales meeting? He goes, yeah. In three hours, he came up with an entirely new sales strategy because it was his genius. And they said, hey, will you come to our meetings once a quarter and just make sure that we have invention? He goes, yeah, I would love to.

And he goes, I almost lost one of my best employees because I thought she had to be good at everything. And not until I realized she just didn't have that genius did I realize, hey, that's fine. I'll find somebody else to do that. Interesting. Do you find like companies that they don't have someone? Is it better to hire – like even like to hire a consultant who like you know that person is a WD – you know, they –

Yes. To get the right energy into like relaunch or rechange a strategy. Yeah. You know, and so the question is, so let's say you have a team and you don't, you're missing something. The question is, what do we do? You can hire a new person to do it. That's not the first thing you should do.

that for what sometimes the team just needs to get together and go hey we're missing this there's another person that we can pull into our meetings when we're having those kind of meetings who can fill in the gap for us or we can find a consultant but let's let's at least know what kind we're going to hire here's a great question russell so a company says we need a new head of marketing right we always say this all the time and so what they do is they go out and get a resume and they find somebody who's been the head of marketing another company and i always say

Wait, wait, wait, wait. What kind of head of marketing do you want? Do you want somebody who's going to be into branding and coming up with new ideas? That's a very different profile than somebody who did lead generation and totally cranks on translating that into sales. There's an ET head of marketing and a WI head of marketing or a DG head of marketing. They're totally different profiles. So just because we call it marketing or you're hiring an executive assistant,

It's like, well, do you want one who's going to look around corners and solve problems when you're not there? Are you going to look for one that just does exactly what you need them to do? Or do you want them asking the questions or do you want them just – and this is changing the way people hire. Job descriptions become less relevant, but what you need to fill in your gaps because your head of marketing at ClickFunnels would be different than mine at the table group. Yeah.

And you're based on your profile, your executive assistant would look different than mine based on how we're wired. And so people are realizing we're developing an AI tool. You can put in a job description and it'll tell you what working genius is probably the right fit for that rather than just going to the resume and saying, well, they spent five years doing that at another company. They're probably going to be good here. And that's a crapshoot. Yeah.

So fascinating. I always wonder, like, what's more important, the working genius or the skill set? You know, like if someone can come in and they've got the genius, they can figure out the skill set. I don't know. What's your thoughts on that? OK, so I think the first thing is cultural fit. You got to get the culture of the company. Number one. Second one is the working genius, because then they can have third one is the is the skill set. Now, they're all great to have, but we usually start the opposite direction.

And that's why it doesn't work. Here's a great story. I was working with a multibillion-dollar software company. I say that only because they were big. They'd been around for years, but they were way behind the curve on innovation. And you've probably heard of this company before. They were terrible at innovation. The Gartner model, they were never in the magic quadrant of new products.

So we take them through this, the executive team. Nobody on the team has W. Nobody of the entire executive team, like there were nine people there. Nobody had wonder. So nobody was going like, maybe this isn't the right thing to do anymore. And only one person on the team had invention, and he was the lawyer, their chief legal counsel. Not the head of marketing, not the head of strategy, not the head of technology, not the CEO.

And they were like, crap. They looked at their results and they said, no wonder we haven't come up with a new product in 10 years. They were selling legacy products. And they were like, none of us think ideating. So you know what they did?

They said to the lawyer, and it took like an hour. In an hour, they were like, why don't you take over a new product acquisition? And he's like, well, I'm a lawyer. And they go, yeah, but you're good at this. And he goes, oh, I loved it. I'm good. I think I am good at it. I'm like, yeah, your job is going to be in addition to being the chief legal counsel. You're the new head of technology acquisition. A year later, I looked at their website, and the guy was no longer their lawyer, and I thought they fired him. He was no longer legal at all. He was in technology. Right.

Because he was naturally inclined to think about new ideas. He loved the business. So they took a guy who went to three years of law school and spent years as a lawyer and put him in charge of technology because he was naturally inclined to do that. And he was so happy. I would love to interview that guy just specifically about like, okay, did he...

Going through law school, I would imagine, would not be in his zone of genius probably unless one of the other ones hit that because law school is not necessarily that kind of thing. I wonder if he struggled that freedom just from all the pressure and all the stress. You know what I mean? And the answer is undoubtedly. And I don't know what his other letter was.

But like we had a guy that took this. He was a doctor, and his report said he didn't have any tenacity, tenacity. And he goes, this must be wrong. We said, why? And he goes, well, I went through med school, and I must have tenacity.

And we were like, did you like it? And he goes, no, I hated it. I would never do it again. It was a grind. Oh, it was crushing. So people will force themselves to do things that they don't like either because of a goal or worse yet because they have a wound or they have to prove themselves. There are people that spend their life in careers that they hate. I talked to a guy recently, a CEO, who spent 14 years in accounting.

And he doesn't have any of the working genius or Myers-Briggs for that. I said, what was that about? He goes, six months into the job, they said, you're never going to make it here. And he goes, I was going to prove them wrong. 13 and a half years of misery later, he finally got out. That's tragic. Oh, yeah. And there's more people. And when people take the working genius, they finally give themselves permission to say, no, I'm allowed to pursue my genius rather than

Yeah. What my grandfather did or what I thought I had to do or something else. So interesting. Now, are there people that are weird that like, I know a disc, like I'm weird because I'm three of the things like, are there people ever more than two or is it pretty consistent? There's only two they should be focusing on. It's a great question.

After four years of this, we have found that it really is two. Now, certain people, though, have a really strong third. But what we find is they're good at it, but they don't love it. Yeah. Okay. So it really seems to us that there's two that people love. Hey, some people, Russell, either because they have strong energy or a desire to achieve or like childhood wounds that make them fear failure, whatever it is, some people can get quite good at five of them.

But usually when you get down to like where does your joy and energy come from, they're like, oh, yeah, if I never did those again, I'd be okay. So, yeah, some people have – are pretty damn good at more than two, but it doesn't mean they want to be. And there's – you know what? I love this story. Like there's these professional athletes who retire when they're like 28.

And you're like, why? And like Barry Sanders was a football player and he was like the best running back ever. And he retired and they just didn't like it. They were good at something that they didn't like. And so they got rewarded for it as opposed to somebody else like Aaron Rodgers, who that guy is having so much fun. He's 40 and he just loves going to practice. Yeah. So just because you're good at something doesn't mean you love it. But sometimes you get people who are actually quite talented in things that aren't a genius.

So they can, they can keep going, but it's really good to know what your geniuses are. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So I'm looking through the report. So I got the things. So mine, you said are innovation galvanizing. So that's my working genius and the working competencies. That's I'm guessing that's number two and three, right? Or number three and four. These ones I'm competent at, but I'm not, but I'm not genius at. So for me, it's discernment and wonder are my competencies. And your working frustrations, which are the second most important after your genius are

having an ET job for you, that's enablement and tenacity. Those are the last two, that's implementation. If somebody said your job, and this was my first job out of college, and because I forced myself to get good at it, I took a job out of college, which was supposed to be at Bain & Company, the number one job in America. It was the highest paying job and supposed to be like the best job out of college. It was my working frustrations. It was this, we're gonna tell you what to do. Just don't ask questions, just do it and do it perfectly and finish.

Interesting. And I was like, why am I hating working here? This is supposed to be the best job in America. Well, it is if you're an ET. But for me, it was the worst job in America because – so if I told you you had a job, Russell, where you didn't ask questions, just when somebody asked you to do something, just say yes, and then make sure you finish it, do it perfectly, and never miss a deadline.

Yeah, that struggles out a lot. Does that sound like a fun job to you? There are people that that job description would go like, oh, that would be my dream job. For sure. And I think a lot of, I look at my team, like the majority of my team probably fits that, right? Like I'm this insane starter who's throwing stuff in the air all day long. And then they're like catching it, systemizing it, finishing it, getting it out the door. And like, and they're like, Russell, stop creating all this chaos. I'm like, this is what gives you a job because all the chaos is out there. So

Well, and what's funny is Matthew and Kristen on your team, or is it Kirsten? Matthew and Kirsten are, they have enablement. So when you go to them and you go, Hey, I need this done. They're like, absolutely. We'll help you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Right. Um,

As it turns out, tenacity is not their finishing, right? It's the person who gets stuff done, right? Right. Those are not working frustrations for them, so they're pretty good at it. But you have other people in the organization I'm sure they rely on who are really good at taking the last step. Yeah. So that totally makes sense. So when you galvanize them, they're like, yep, we're on board. We'll figure out a way to get this done. Interesting. Yeah.

Very cool. That's a wonderful thing. Kirsten is also a galvanizer. So you have two people that don't mind rallying the troops. What's interesting is Matthew and Michael on your team really don't want to push people to do things that they don't like. Galvanizing is in their working frustration. So if you said, hey, you guys get out there, convince people to do something that you know that they don't really want to do because it's the right thing. They're going to be like, please don't make me do that. Sales is not going to be good for them. Closing deals.

Interesting. That makes a lot of sense, actually. And so looking at your team and going, the low-hanging fruit here, Russell, is crazy. And teams that were frustrated at each other will take this and go, they'll start laughing about the fact that like, I thought you were flaky. You're not flaky. You're just a WI. Or I thought you were anal.

Oh, no, you're just an ET. You actually get joy and energy from that. And what used to be a judgment is now an understanding. And now they're solving the problem together. And it turns tension into humor and insight. And this works. It's crazy. It works just every time.

So fascinating. Now you said, I was reading about this last night as well. You talked about the fact that it's 20% personality, 80% productivity. So what do you mean by, I try to figure out like, is it one of the things is focused on personality, a little on productivity or just kind of that? No, that's how, yeah. And that confuses me too. My staff talks about what they mean. The benefits of this are 20%. Like it's great to understand yourself, but the biggest benefit that happens is in an organization where people on a team understand one another.

And they get more done in less time because people are shifting like, hey, well, if you don't like doing that, I do. I love doing that. Why don't why don't I take that from you and you take this for me? And why don't we restructure how we're running marketing or sales? Because really, we're organized wrong based on our geniuses. So it's the most the benefit of this. There's a lot of personal insights, but the collective insights of a team we think are what really makes this happen.

It makes total sense. Yeah. But I was, when my team said that I was initially confused and then that's what, and I said, no, no. Okay. I get it. That makes sense. Yeah, no, for sure. So it's, it's good for you, but even better using it with the team and helping everyone figure it out. So since you're the, you're the understand.me, I love that.

Yeah. Here's what I want to say. The Myers-Briggs, which is my other favorite one, although I like, I like them all. Yeah. That is more of the, that's the noun. That's kind of our personality preference. Like what's your Myers-Briggs type, Russell? I am.

Top of my head. I am an INFP. Okay. My wife is an INFP, so I know what that is. She's awesome then. I love her. I understand her perfectly. Thoughtful, deep, you know, all these things. That's the noun. You are an INFP. IG is

is what you do. That's the verb. And so we think both are important. We don't, we don't think any one of these, I love that. And understand that me, you have all of them because they're like, understand a person in every way, but we had not seen one that was so close to the ground. Like, but what do you like to do when you come in in the morning? If I give you a task and I say, I have a task for you, which tasks are going to light you up and make you go, this is the best. And which tasks are going to make you go, Oh, I want to go back home.

And so that's the verb. So I think that the working genius is the verb, but the other ones have a place like Myers-Briggs and the others. And so knowing that you're an INFP and an IG is interesting. My wife is an INFP, but she's a WI. Gene she hates. Rallying the kids, rallying people to do things that they don't feel like doing is something she would never want to do. Yeah. So fascinating. Yeah.

So when you were, I'm saying by myself now, now that I'm super excited to go and actually influence my whole team. So when you're working with the team, I'm assuming you have everyone go and, and take it. You explain things to them, but how do you start like the practical, like implementation of this afterwards? That's the part I'm like, how do you actually do that? So like we start dividing tasks based on which, which of the letter, you know, or how it's just kind of, I'm curious how you guys actually implement this in a big organization. Yeah.

So I just did it last night with a team. First of all, start it team by team. But like we have companies that are going to be taking tens of 10,000 people through this so that everybody knows they're working genius. So when they sit down to a meeting, they're like, okay, we need to get this done. Who'd be good at this? And they're like,

Oh, no, no, no. You would probably hate this. And they're like, yeah, thank you for recognizing. But so I have the team map here in front of me, right? Oh, very cool. So because you just took this. So I have the team map with all six geniuses and it shows which of them are geniuses, which of them are frustrations and the ones in between fall out. And you just look at that and naturally everybody starts to go, well, crap, we're not. Yeah.

Michael, you're an inventor like me. Oh, okay. So we need to realize that when we need to, you know, right away, you'll start to apply this. It's pretty, like I said, it's low hanging fruit and it's pretty dynamic. People are recognizing opportunities to change the way they're going about things. It doesn't have to be a formal org chart change or a title change. It's usually just like, well, when we work on these projects, why don't we make sure that the three of you are always there for that part?

Yeah. Here's the most important thing though, Russell, we need to start thinking about every discussion we have in every meeting we have in terms of what letters are at play. So we sit down for a meeting and somebody goes, okay, we're going to have a meeting. And people say, is this a, what kind of meeting is this? You know, this is largely a WID meeting because we're, we're going to be brainstorming and evaluating which ideas are good. And that doesn't mean some people go, okay, I don't have those. I'm not going to go your team. You got to all be there, but at least, you know, like, oh, okay. Yeah.

This is not my sweet spot. I got to be here to watch the sausage getting made, but you're not asking me to evaluate this for its reality or plan how we're going to accomplish it. You have another meeting where it's like, no, we're doing the launch next week. This is like a final prep to get this done. And the WI guy comes and goes, I want to brainstorm. And we're like, no, no, no. Right. And now you're allowed to say that. It's like,

Are you are you W.I.N.S. right now? Like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's too. You're right. I naturally do that. No, we're really here. We're having a GT meeting. We're rallying people to finish things. Yeah. And when people have those, I was in a meeting last night and I said to somebody, hey, I'm eyeing you right now. I'm not G.E.N. you.

I'm giving you an idea for you to evaluate. I'm not rallying you to actually act on it because sometimes you can go to a meeting. Like you're an IG. You can go to a meeting, Russell, and go, you know what would be cool? This would be cool. And everyone starts running like as if it's a thing. Yes. Right. It's the worst ever. Yeah, everyone's like – yeah, in fact, I have to hide ideas a lot of times because my team will get so excited. They start implementing. I'm like, stop. I don't – no, this is – I'm just –

This is make-believe in my head right now. Please don't do anything until I tell you that this is a ruling. So that's a very real pain point for me. And we say, I'm inventing. I'm not galvanizing because you don't always do both at the same time. I'm inventing, which means I'm asking for your discernment, not your enablement. Don't go to act on this. And let me tell you something, Russell, like no other tool we've seen. People get this and remember it.

And start using the vocabulary. And it's like, is it all right if I do a little wondering right now? Like, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, have we actually thought about this? Where they couch it like that and people know, oh, yeah, you're a wonderer. Yeah, yeah, give it to us. Whereas if you do that without – Versus being annoyed by it, right? Exactly. Versus like, stop coming up with ideas. Like, we're – yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

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You almost want to give everyone hats that have a different color hat on, sir. So you can know what it is in the conversation. Like, okay, that's who you guys are. That's who you guys are. And then it makes it simpler. Well, four years into this, we came up with this, which we finally said, which sits on your desk. And the green ones are your letters that your geniuses, your competencies and your frustrations. And you can look at it and just go, oh yeah, that totally makes sense.

Yeah.

One of the other interesting things I struggle with sometimes is like, again, because now that I know I'm an IG, like I have tasks that I know need to get done, but then I know they would crush me. I would rather die than do them. And then I feel guilty giving people because I'm like, ah, like they're not going to want to do this. I wouldn't want to do it. And I have this like weird,

guilt thing or I'm like apologizing. I was like, Hey, I know I need to do this, but looking through this lens, I'm like, they probably actually really are like, that's the thing that like lights them up. You know, it makes no logical sense to me. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Very interesting. And the other thing is, and when we do that with all the right intentions, cause I'm the same way,

We can kind of accidentally demean them. Like, I know this is this, you probably don't want to do this, but I'm going to ask you. And they're like, well, that's actually my favorite thing in the world. Yeah. So we want to celebrate that and go, Hey, you're you're, I love that you love that. And you know, I'm not good at that. You you're a rock star when it comes to implementation. And I'm so glad you're on the team. So now that I'm, I know I suck at implementation. I'm going to galvanize you for this and let you do what you do.

Yeah. And so it's like raising everybody up and you don't, you shouldn't feel guilty, but I did that for years. I would feel like I don't want to ask them to do something I don't like, but it's like, they love it. So cool, man. Um, there's so, yeah, I'm just like in my head thinking through so many conversations I've been having over the last 10 years and meetings and stuff like that. So next question I have, this comes back, you touched upon a little earlier, but it's the, um, uh, the unique pairings. So how do the pairings, um,

Like understand the pairings versus just the individual letters. Walk me through like that. Cause I think that that's kind of next level to understand the two strengths versus just the one with people. Right. Yeah. We, at first we thought the individual letters were most important, but then early in the implementation of this, we realized it's actually the pairing because like you're an eye, right? You're invention, but your inventions gets to galvanize it. It's like, not only do you like to invent, but you'd like to get people excited. If you're a W I, right.

You're up in your head and thinking about it and you like to invent, but you're not necessarily going to push it out there. So it's that combination. So you're the evangelistic innovator, right? Well, the WI, my wife, who is the same working genius, she's a WI. She's the creative dreamer.

So she'll sit in a room and dream up ideas and talk about them. She's not going to necessarily try to activate them through others. In fact, she hates doing that. So that second letter really explains how that first letter plays out. I'm an I also, but I'm an ID. And so what that means is I, my, my genius, I'm called the discriminating genius.

ideator, which means I'm evaluating my invention and I'm more interested in the curation of my idea than I am in the promotion of that idea. Interesting.

And so I'm assuming that in your team though, you then have people who are the greater promotion so that after you've curated it, you figured it out, you put it together, then you can hand it off and then get back to making the next idea. Right? Yeah. Well, one of the things we realized we only have one galvanizer on my team and that's a, that's a limitation in our organization.

Because what happens is we come up with great ideas. Everybody has discernment. They all evaluate it and they all give their opinion. But then it's like, okay, who's going to get this going? And people are like, not me. So that's why. Is that a problem with a lot of people is that they're surrounding themselves with people more like them. And so they're missing some of the things. Does that normally happen? You notice? It can often happen. And it's the opposite of what should be happening. If you share core value, you know, the one thing you should hire people that are like you in your core values.

Like there's two or three core values you have and you should go find people with those core values. And after that, go for diversity of thinking and how they experience things and how they understand things, because then that's good. But when you don't hire people with the same core values, then the diversity breaks up that that organization. But after that, you want people that are different than you who fill in your gaps, not people that are the same as you.

who leave you with blind spots. By the way, I have a great story I want to share. This is one of my favorite stories is a guy was going in for a performance review and he had had a bad year. And so he went to, he was going to sit down with his boss and his boss's boss to get reviewed. And he knew it was going to go poorly. He didn't know if they were going to ask him to leave or whatever else. So he took the working genius and that the night before, and he went in and he gave it to his boss and said, can you look at this before we talk? And the other two people looked at it and were like,

Well, crap, you're in the wrong job, man. No wonder you've had, you had a terrible year. This is, and then the other guy goes, Hey, you know, um, we have that other job opening that would be perfect for you.

And the guy wrote to us and said, I got promoted instead of fired because they knew I was a good guy, but they didn't realize I was just doing the wrong job. And when you have the language for understanding what that means, man, so many people lose good people because they just don't understand what they're good at. And if they're a cultural fit, never fire a cultural fit, man. Find a way to use them.

That reminds me of good to great Jim Collins book talks about like one of the five things, right? It's like finding the right person, but then finding the right seat on the bus. I've had a lot of times too, where like, I've had someone who's, I can tell they're amazing and they're in the culture and like,

But like, it's like wrong fit, wrong. And we've moved them three or four times. All of a sudden it slides into something where it's like, oh, we found a seat on the bus for you. And you're amazing at this. But it took too long to get there because we didn't have a short, we didn't have a map of like, here's how you actually find the person for that. We're just like, try this, try this. Hopefully something will work eventually. So we have a three-step process for building teams, Russell. And it goes, get the right people on the bus because we love to, and sometimes you have a person, they're in the right seat, but they don't belong on the bus.

They don't fit the culture. So that's – first get the right people on the bus, then get them in the right seat, and that's working genius. So I can't believe you just said that. That's great. Then get the bus to perform, and that's the five dysfunctions of a team. So that's exactly right. This is about are they in the – assuming they belong on the bus because they fit the core values –

are they in the right seat? And what a beautiful thing when you can get people in the right seat. Sometimes your bus is so small, you don't even have a seat for them. And you're like, hey, I love you, man. We only have three people here and we need somebody else. Like, let's find another bus for you where you can get a seat.

that makes sense for you. Then you're not rejecting them as a person saying you failed. It's just saying what we need you to do at this small company, we don't really have a spot for. Yeah. What we need you to do. You know, the other thing about this, Russell, is that it takes 12 minutes to fill out this assessment. It was really fast. I blocked out an hour. Okay, here we go. And I was like, oh, that was...

I'm done. And four years into looking at this, because Myers-Briggs, I prefer to talk to somebody about Myers-Briggs than have them take the assessment because the assessment is like 70% accurate, 75%, which means you get one letter wrong. And one letter wrong of the four letters is really a big difference.

We found that this is like, because we're asking people to tell us about what they enjoy and what feeds them, we find this to be remarkably accurate. And people fill out this 12-minute assessment, read it, look at these descriptions. They're like, well, this is, shoot, I mean, this is me. And I want to go share this with everybody I know because I've been feeling terrible about the fact that I wasn't good at certain things. And I don't know if people know that I'm really good at these other things. Yeah. Yeah.

So we, we, we love that it can be done quickly. Yeah. Um, man, just remember thinking so many things right now on just, again, come back to the seat on the bus. Like the fact that it's a shortcut to find the right seat is such a,

I don't know. It's a map, right? This is the map to get the person there as quick as we can. You know what else we found is that we're launching a new program in the next few months is that a team can fill this out. And in an hour, they can have somebody, we're going to have them click a button and they can go on and have somebody debrief it with them and go, here's your low hanging fruit. Because when you have somebody else look at it and go, hey, you guys, do you ever find that this is what happens? And people are like, how did you know? And it's like, because it's right here.

And it really helps people take that first step. And then all the other things you said before, it's like, so how do we go about implementing this? I wish it were a plan thing. It's so easy, though, when you see it. Right away, you start realizing, oh, we need to rethink how we're allocating people, truly staffing projects. And we need to start talking about it differently, too. Yeah.

So those who are listening were like, this is awesome. I cannot wait to try where what's like, it's two, two, two sides is one is where the best place from the take the assessment. And number two is like, where can they learn? I mean, is there other places to learn more to go deep in this? I love to give people that resource as well. Yeah. If you go to working genius.com and there's two G's in the middle, cause working genius.com.

You'll get lots of resources, free resources, understanding it, videos and all that kind of stuff. You can also take the assessment there. And if a team takes it, they can get a team map. They can go in and do it on the same console and then print a team map and look at the ramifications. And in the report, you get your working genius pairings and all the information you need to get started. But there's tons of free resources on there too. It costs $25 to take it. This is an enterprise tool. So a lot of people are like, it should cost more than that because it's changing. We're like, no, we want...

We developed a student assessment this year because people said, I want my high school student to understand themselves better. So we have one for teenagers now, and we want this to be easy enough to take. It's like a couple coffees at Starbucks, and you can actually unlock your potential and your geniuses. So it costs $25. It takes 12 minutes. You can go to workinggenius.com.

And there's all kinds of, the other thing we did is we realized a lot of people wanted to be experts in this, like enough to be able to help other people with it. So we have a certification program and like 3,500 people have become certified. You do a two day course online, a live course with people and you learn how to use this and you learn how to consult around it. So we have resources around that too. We're building a real ecosystem because so many people are interested and we're just a small company. So we want to set the world on fire with it.

So cool. Yeah. And I love it. So this is my printout for those who see the video. Like this is really cool. Cause this is very educational. It shows you there's all the pairings, there's all the stuff. So just the report you get back afterwards, we'll do most of it. Like explain exactly who you are, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses, what your pairings are. It gives you so much just as part of the taking the assessment. So you don't just take it and like giving it like, here's the answer. It's like,

And here's how to like interpret that and use it for yourself, which is awesome. And Russell, when you take your whole team through it or whatever your team is going to be, feel free to give us a call and I'll have Matt, my son, who does the data for this. He'll take you through a debrief of it.

That'd be awesome. I want to include this in understand that me as well. Like we have, we linked to other assessments that are, that are amazing. So I'm going to talk to my team about getting this linked to it. That way when people pull up their understand that me profile, they'll be able to see again, disc Enneagram value, all the different things. And then now we'll be able to show that as well. So like you said, the noun versus the verb, that's such a powerful, powerful thing, especially for like,

the people that usually are obviously a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners and a lot of like coaches who are coaching people. I think this will help them on both sides to be able to really understand and, and know how to, how to implement this with, with people and with teams, you know? Hey, Russell, here's an interesting story because you're the understand.me guy.

So I had a group of lawyers in my office a couple years ago, and I didn't know it, but the CEO of this company of lawyers, he was the guy who argued the Supreme Court case in one of the states that made it illegal technically to use assessments in the hiring process. Now, there's other ways to do it. I don't know if you're – because they're like, well, they could be biased. I didn't know this guy. That was this guy. So I'm doing my assessment with him and his team. We're going around, and at the end of the day, he goes –

Yeah, I hate these things because I had to argue a case. So I had to – he goes, but this one actually – he goes, I think I'm thinking differently because everybody here knows what type they are. It totally made sense. It makes me want to manage them all differently. Yeah, this one – and so you can use it in hiring if you do it the right way.

in all of them. But in some states, they'll say, have you ever run up against that where people are like, how come we can't just give everybody a thing? And they're like, well, legally, they say it's biased. But really, all we're trying to do is help people find the right job. Oh, yeah, for sure. And so it's better. I mean, you know, it's like people's resumes are lying. People make these things like whatever they think, don't hire me. The person comes in, you're like,

What is it? You know, it's like this, these things, I don't know. I love it because it gives you such a good map and yeah, definitely there's, there's ways you have to get around it. But even like for me, what's been most useful is after somebody, you know,

comes in and again, you're not like, it's not working right or whatever. Like even after someone would hire somebody, it's like, Hey, I want you to get these things so I can understand how to work with you and where to put you and all that kind of stuff. And so the more, the more data points we have, the better we can serve them as someone on our team, you know what I mean? To make sure that they're going to be happy and we can help them be successful in the role.

By the way, though, I think they should be used in hiring. But I'm not for that because I think what we're trying to do is avoid people talking themselves into jobs that they don't want or avoid companies hiring people that aren't going to work out. It doesn't serve anybody to not find a good match. So I don't like the fact that people are like, you can't use this in hiring. It's like, yeah, but you're going to avoid misery for people.

but the legal system doesn't often see things that way. So we'll have to change that eventually, but not today. That's so awesome. Well, man, I appreciate you being on this. This is really fascinating. And I love assessments. And again, been a big fan of yours for 18, 19 years ago when I first read your first book, I got ahold of. And so it's fun to finally have a chance to, to connect your face with, with you and your stories. And, and,

Taking this from all your stuff that you teach over the years, these frameworks and your stories and stuff, and turning it into a very tangible assessment is such a cool thing for, I think, people now to be able to figure these things out quicker. And I love the other thing you said, the fact after you get this and you get the people on the right seats on the bus, then going back to the five dysfunctions, read that book now. Here's how we make sure everyone can gel together and it's not pure chaos all the time, you know?

Right. And when you know you're working genius, by the way, because the first thing we do in five dysfunctions is we help people build trust through vulnerability. Well, when you know you're working geniuses, people start saying, oh, yeah, I know I suck at that. And people are like, you do? And like, yeah, it says right here I suck at that. And now they're more vulnerable and people can actually build trust without pretending like, oh, I have to pretend I'm great at everything. So it really does dovetail well with people being vulnerable with each other. And that's a huge part of the five dysfunctions of a team. Yeah. Yeah.

So cool. So fascinating. I'm excited. Like I said, I studied stuff initially when we were first building the team and it's just fun. Now I'm going to go back deep again, starting with assessments, but then going back on there, just re-geeking out on your, on your, on your frameworks and stuff as we kind of go back through this. So hopefully everyone else does as well. Anyway, it's been, it's been awesome, man. Anything else you want to tell our people before we, before we send them to go take the assessment?

No, I just, I'm looking at that thing behind you, those two gears. That's actually like our, what is that? That's like the model right there. That's the ClickFunnels logo. That's our ClickFunnels logo. You're kidding. I didn't see that. That's wild because that's what the logo is for this. Maybe this is what it was meant to be. It's all gears. They're all different gears. This is the gears to build your funnel. This is the gears to build your team. They all can kind of tie in together to make something amazing. There you go. That's great. Hey, Russell, thanks for having me on. It's been a blast talking to you.

Yeah, great. Great having you getting to know you everyone. It's time to go get go take the assessment against it. Working genius.com double G's in the middle, right? Yep.

Go take the test and take the assessment and then get your teams involved. Get all the people in your teams. Obviously, so you probably know this. Most of our entrepreneurs who follow us, they're running teams of either solo entrepreneurs of about 10 employees. It's kind of our sweet spot with most of our teams. So for this is such a perfect thing. You know, bigger scale is insane because there's a lot more. But like for most of our audience, it's like this is such a perfect thing to be able to figure out how to work really, really well inside of that, inside of the team.

the teams they have to spill the figure those things out. And then that's how you start growing to get the bigger teams and growing the companies from there. Yeah. And truly for a small organization, having this kind of breakthrough can make your productivity and your morale change dramatically.

quickly and drastically it's like suddenly you're like we we have three people one plus one plus one can equal seven if we're using them in the right geniuses where sometimes one plus one plus one is two because we're not fully tapping into people so for a small organization this can unlock a lot quickly yeah i had a guy in my office yesterday actually talking about this like he um he's a huge fan by the way he was like i wish i could be the one doing the interview so it was kind of fun but

He, they took their business was doing, I think at the time, like one and a half million dollars a year. And they didn't change the funnels, the marketing, the advertising, anything. They just changed the company culture stuff and move people around. Like you're talking about here. And they went, they are more than doubled their sales the next year. And they're like, this makes sense. Cause we didn't change our marketing or advertising anything.

yet we doubled our revenues. And it's these internal team dynamics that it's hard for a marketing guy like me, who I'm obsessed with marketing. So it's like, how does this work to increase the bottom line? And it's like these intangibles that then it makes your team happier. They're better on customer support. They're better on sales. They're better at all the other pieces. Like it changes that where people are

they're happier, they're more productive, and it just rises everything else in the company without having to increase your advertising dollars or your conversion rates or all the things I typically geek out on. It doesn't make logical sense to the marketer in me, but I love the proof. The proof's there, so it's worth doing. And you know what it is, Russell? It's like,

I say the health of an organization, the functionality, the way people work is the multiplier of their intelligence. So you can have the best marketing plan in the world, but how much are you going to actually tap into that if people are dysfunctional? When you make them functional, then the beauty of your intellect and the beauty of your plan and the beauty of your marketing program, you actually get all of that.

So it's like a football team that has a great offense, but the people don't like to work together. But if you actually get them to work together, then the offense, you're going to use every bit of it. So it's not that the marketing plan doesn't matter. It's just if people are dysfunctional behaviorally, you're only going to tap into a fraction of its benefit. Yeah.

Awesome, man. I love it. So good. So great to connect with you and appreciate you and you guys putting together assessment. Everyone go take the assessment for you and for your teams and hopefully have a chance to hang out and talk to you again soon someday. Thank you, Patrick. I appreciate it. God bless.