How to Increase Sales by 76% - with Jeremy Miner
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Welcome to the Marketing Seekers Podcast. My name is Russell Brunson, and I'm what you call a serial entrepreneur, but with a twist. You see, 50% of my time, I'm the CEO of ClickFunnels, helping over 100,000 brands to grow their companies with funnels. And the other 50% of my time, I'm actually in the trenches using ClickFunnels to grow the startups I believe in. During this podcast, I'll take you behind the scenes and show you how we are bootstrapping ClickFunnels and my other businesses from startup to nine figures and beyond. Welcome to the show.

What's up, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. I'm going to be starting to include some interview series here in the podcast, which I'm excited for. In the past, there's basically – you've only heard me talk. I think twice, maybe three times we've ever had somebody else besides me on the podcast. But –

Recently, we've been relaunching YouTube and going deep and I've been interviewing some fascinating people as part of it. And so number one takeaway I want you to have is like you should go check out the new YouTube channel. It's performing really well. We're dropping new videos every single week. Some unique content – some really unique stuff we're doing. But number two is I'm going to let you listen in on one of the conversations that was on this week's YouTube. So it was a conversation with me and Jeremy Minor. Jeremy is someone who's in my Atlas group.

program. Uh, last year he was in category Kings and he has a big company teaching sales. And, uh, we actually recently fired him and his team to help us with our sales process and, um, building out our back, back and call center, stuff like that. And just, um, anyway, someone who I really enjoy and like and admire the way he does things.

And this interview was great. We went deep into sales and psychology and a whole bunch of really fun things. And so I'm going to share this interview with you. But do remember that if you want to see the visual of this one, which is really cool, head over to YouTube, type in Russell Brunson, go to the new channel, make sure you subscribe and then look for the new video. It says the video title is Jeremy Miner changes everything we know about sales. Check out the video there as well. And I hope you enjoy this and other future interviews we'll be showing here on the Marketing Secrets channel. Thanks so much. And I hope you enjoy this interview.

My biggest year as a salesperson that I made commission was about a little bit over 2.9 something, 2.9 million straight commission.

My background in college was behavioral science and social dynamics, how human beings make decisions. If you want to be like top 1% salesperson, you have to view that selling is collaborative. It's like you working with the prospect to help them find and solve problems that maybe they didn't know they had. So if the prospect have problems and your solution solves those, then what's the missing link? Why are they not buying from you? Well, the missing link is you. All selling is, is change.

That's it. There is a direction you're taking somebody. Is there a script they're working off of? There's five tonalities that you really have to master. You have to master the, you know, curious tone. Like then there's the confused tone, like a playful tone, a challenging tone, a concerned tone. I might lean in and be like, what's really holding you back? So it's like how you shift your tone, like that really cause a prospect to actually engage with you. Do I believe in scripts? Yes. Do I believe in sounding scripted?

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the channel. Today, I'm excited to be interviewing one of my friends, Jeremy Miner. And I'm excited because I feel like in the last hundred years, there's a lot of people who have taught sales, but the most part, it's just kind of been the same thing. And you popped up, started popping up in my newsfeed probably two years ago, started seeing it. And at first I was like, oh no, someone teaching sales. Like,

Like what's going to be new from here? And then as I started digging into your stuff and watching your training and going into it, I was like, oh, this is actually unique and different and really cool. So much so that I know I'm under NDA, but like we're using everything he's doing inside of our, for our sales team and stuff like that. I know when you announced that yesterday in the mastermind, I'm like, I thought we had an NDA. I'm not really sure. Okay. Okay.

I'm bad at keeping secrets. You should all know that at this point. I know Matt's like, do not say anything. We're under an India. I'm like, lips are sealed. There's only like three or four people in the whole company that know we're doing this. And then Russell comes like, oh yeah, by the way, Jeremy, you know, the seven levels training are about to start training our salespeople. I'm like, oh, well, sure. Okay. Yeah, there we go. It was interesting too, like just to have context, like,

We built a sales team, man, probably 15 years ago, 60 full-time sales guys. We were one of the first in this industry who were doing like, sell something online, call them on the phone. And nowadays, a lot of people are doing that, teaching it, talking about it. But again, like I said, what you guys are doing is a different level, which is why I wanted to talk to you here. But to begin with, I want to get context for you. So before you started doing sales training,

Yeah. You were doing sales. And I know, basically, your stats. Hopefully, I would have been in sales before I did sales training. But when you did a sales, how good were you? Like, brag about yourself a bit. What would you like to know? I saw stats somewhere. I don't know the exact number, but, like, actual sales commissions in a year, which is ridiculous. My best year, like, commission only, because I only, like, negotiated commission only jobs. So, like, after my first year, because I started, like, selling door-to-door, like, for...

what you would now known as Vivint in Salt Lake City. I started with Pinnacle Security, then moved to Apex, then went to Vivint. And then, so I was used to like straight commissions. So then I got into the B2B world after that. And then everybody would be like, we'll pay you like, you know, this huge salary and like tiny commission. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I don't want any salary, but I want like this percentage of commission, you know? And they're always like, that's great. And I'm like, yes, that's really great. See, I've covered my sales process. But my biggest year as a salesperson that I made,

commission was about a little bit over 2.9 something, 2.9 million straight commission. But there were several years in a row where I was making over like 2.4, 2.5 every year, W2 or 10 and 99. It's crazy because I see the top tier salespeople. And rightfully so, they're bragging, I did a million dollars in sales this year or whatever, which is great. On a seven figure closer. I'm like, no, you're really not. In my world, you're not, but yeah. So how did you get...

I mean, outside of negotiating commissions, but like, what were you doing differently, do you think, to... Well, I probably had an unfair advantage. So my background in college was behavioral science and like social dynamics. So it's like really like, I don't want to give all the nerd stuff, but it's really the study of the brain and how human beings make decisions. So I started learning just, you know, just how to work with human behavior, I would say. So I started taking like courses from like people like, you would probably know like Robert Caldini and stuff like that. I started taking like advanced courses from just

you know, weird stuff like psychologists and stuff that really didn't have anything to do with selling. I started taking like, I wanted to learn like advanced tonality and body language. So I would hire like athletes

acting trainers and stuff that would like train you how to use your facial expressions to like convey a different tone. And so that really probably set me apart than just like reading a traditional selling book. Like you got to set goals, you got to work harder, you know, like that stuff was really boring to me. Yeah. Like here's the 1,365 closing techniques. I'm just like, it's so transactional and so like non-human that it triggers sales resistance. So I learned how to like...

The one thing that we really train salespeople in any industry is how do you get the prospect to let their guard down, like initially where they become open to what you're even talking about. So I started learning how to do that and selling became pretty easy at that point. Yeah. Yeah. And then you coined the, I don't know if you coined the phrase or the term, but NEPQ is your methodology, right? Yeah, that is our methodology. So NEPQ stands for neuroemotional persuasion questioning. So NEPQ,

It's just my methodology that I developed over like about an 18-year sales career. I was in four different industries, two B2C, two B2B. Made seven figures a year in commissions in all of those industries. Multiple seven figures in three of those industries per year. And that's why I always say like when people come back and they're like, oh, I'm a seven-figure closer. I wanted to go back to it because it was like I'm a seven-figure closer. I closed $2 million in sales. I'm like, so you made $250,000. That's great.

But like to be a seven figure closer, you like, in my mind, like you have to be earning that much per year in commission. So. Yeah. So NPQ comes from like my behavioral science background. I'm like a nerd. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in my world is two, there's two types of people who are probably listening to this. One is like the marketing nerds like me who are like,

we market something and then we have a phone call in the back and then there are people who are doing sales or want to do sales. So maybe let's start from the sales standpoint. So give us some basic, understand the principles of an APQ, like some core things that someone could grab onto and like start applying right away. I mean, the biggest thing with us, with any APQ is like,

You know, just one core principle that we would teach is to listen to what the prospect means, not just what they say. And that's a big difference I think most salespeople just conceptually don't understand. Like, I might ask you what we would call a commitment question, like to get you to commit to take the next step. I might say, you know, do you feel like this could be the answer for you? And you'll be like, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that tells me that you're uncertain, that you've got concerns. Whereas most salespeople would be like, okay. He said yes, let's go, let's sign the agreement. But that to me, like I'm hearing your tone and that tells me you're uncertain, you're concerned. I might just say that.

you don't seem, you don't seem, you seem a bit unsure. Like what's cool. You know, what's behind that. You know, I want them to open up. So that's just one concept that we would teach, like listening to what they mean, not just what they say. Interesting. We had, um, this was a sales position, but, uh, one of our tops, uh, customer support people had a conversation with them and I was like, how are you so good? Like you answer everyone's, everyone loves you. Yeah. And they said the same thing. Like, like I don't respond what they ask me. I respond to what they're actually saying. Yeah. It's like, I don't want to teach that or how to coach that because it's like, it's

human dynamics. How do you actually know what they're saying? That's why he was so great because he was able to look at that. How do you teach that? It's something that everybody, I think there's this myth out there in the world of selling and I think even marketing that people are born

with these skills. You know, like I grew up on a freaking like cattle ranch in the middle of Missouri outside of a town with less than 800 people in it. Like, you know, I wasn't born out of my mother's womb with like advanced questioning skills. You know, I wasn't born out of my mother's womb, like advanced tonality. Like I wasn't born with

advanced, you know, objection prevention or handling skills. Like I just acquired those skills. Like I learned those skills. So if I can learn them, right, coming from a farm, that means anybody can acquire those skills. And in fact, we always hear like salespeople, like I'll do a keynote and like somebody will be like, oh, I've got the gift of the gab, you know, like I'm so, you know, I'm going to be so great. It says, I remember I'm training this

This pest control company over the East Coast here about six months ago. And I asked him some question and one guy randomly said in the back, and he's like, I'm brand new. I haven't started, but I got the gift of the gab. My mom said I could sell anything to anybody. And I'm like, actually, the gift of the gab is probably going to hurt you because you ever heard of that saying, you know, telling is not selling? The gift of the gab, actually, we have to train salespeople, like, actually how to, like, stop talking so much. Like, how to, like, slow down and verbal pace the questions that you're talking about.

Because a lot of times, like salespeople ask questions, they're good, but they ask them so fast that the prospect has no time to internalize what they're actually asking. And so that's why they get like a knee-jerk, like surface-level answer. Let's say you go into a car dealership, right? And the salesman comes up, hey, how's it going? How can I help you? Real quick, you're like, oh, just looking. Yeah. Right? It's a knee-jerk reaction. But if I slow down my tone, let me try to get the right tone.

So they walk in, I might say, hey, hey, welcome into the dealership. Are you guys out just maybe kind of looking around today or what's going on? You know, I just slow down my tongue. Are you out, you know, looking around? Yeah, we're looking around. Do you know what you're, do you know what you're maybe looking for? Like I'm kind of confused, right? So I draw them in. So it's like how you shift your tone, like how do you slow down, like verbal pace your questions out that really cause a prospect to actually engage with you. Yeah.

Super interesting. So I'm not a good one-on-one salesperson. I'm probably the worst in the world. No, because you talk really fast? Well, just... You're obviously the best marketer. But I'm great on one-to-many, right? And so it was interesting because I was trying to learn how to do that. And again, people watch me and they're like, you talk too fast, Russell. Which I do. But at the same time, like...

I was studying when I was trying to learn how to speak from stage like really good presenters and it wasn't just people selling it was like religious leaders and it was other people and that was the thing I noticed a lot was like their ability to use tonality like speed and like loud and quiet it's like it's like fluctuating your tone yeah I would practice and then I'd stop yeah

they come back quieter. You see the audience, they lean in, lean out. I say that from that standpoint. It's kind of what Tony Robbins does. I mean, you know Tony, right? So if you watch Tony, he'll get really fast and really emotional and then he slows down and has verbal pause.

he's a master at it. You know, obviously that's not something he was born with. Somebody taught him that. Like President Obama, I'm not into politics, but like President Obama was really good when he was speaking and that's why he engaged so many people is he would say something really, you know, prophetic or whatever his beliefs were. Then he would kind of like verbal pause and like slow down his sentences and like let people internalize and think about it. And they're like,

You know, like, I love him, you know? So that's... Those type of things, like, make the difference in influencing somebody or, like, somebody buying something from you compared to just, you know, asking scripted questions where you sound like a robot. Yeah. So when you do work with people...

Talking about, because obviously there is a direction you're taking somebody. Is there a script they're working off of or not? Or how does it typically work? So I believe in like sales structures. Like, you know, you go back to like Hollywood, you see like the best actors and actresses and you watch her movies and everything they say is pretty much

100% scripted. But does it sound scripted? No, that's because they memorize their lines. So as a salesperson, you have to have a structure in your mind. You have to have questions you've got memorized. Now that doesn't mean because let's say if I'm, well, we would ask, it's called an NBQ situation question to find out what their situation is. And if they say something different,

that I'm not necessarily used to, I'm going to have to kind of change that next question I'm asking on the run, but I'm still in my framework, if that makes sense. So that's why at NPQ, we have everything from connection questions to situation questions, to problem awareness, to solution awareness, to consequence. And so that's why we've been able to go into any industry. We're in 161 industries now and be able to duplicate that process. And it doesn't matter if it's selling insurance to

coaching and consulting or cars or cybersecurity, it doesn't really matter. The industry, we're able to duplicate because we have all these salespeople on this framework where they know what they're looking for and sometimes they have to relanguage the question based on the answer they're getting from the prospect. Does that make sense? So do I believe in scripts? Yes. Do I believe in sounding scripted? No. Yeah. That's the problem.

That's the difference. I've seen, I mean, you know, you get on the phone with salespeople and the worst ones are ones where you like throw a little detour and then they're like, and they don't know what to do and they're like, come back. And then they just go to the next question. Yeah, they're like, ask you the same question again. You're like, I just, you know, they sound like a telemarketer, right? And it's, that's bad, but it's also, it's

It's kind of like it's both are bad. It's like the ones that just kind of wing it and don't really know where they're going. Like that's not going to work and you can't sound scripted. So that's where your tone comes across. You know, we train like there's five tonalities you really have to master. You have to master the, you know, curious tone. Like,

Walk me through it. What do you guys do to generate new leads and clients now? Like if I'm selling leads to, say, a real estate agent, whatever, then there's the confused tone. I'm not understanding. How did you mean when you said XYZ? That's a confused tone, right?

So why do I use a confused tone when I want them to clarify a probe? Because that would cause the prospect's brain to be like, and they don't even know what's going on, but it causes their brain to be like, oh, I didn't really explain that really well. I need to clarify it better. So that causes them to go deeper into that.

like maybe a problem they were talking about. So it gives them to relive their pain, right? So a confused tone would do that. If I didn't use a confused tone there, you know, if I used a curious tone, like, oh, what happened when you said that? It doesn't do anything, right? It doesn't get them to internalize. Then there's like a, you know, a challenging tone. So you're not going to use a

a challenging tone at the beginning of a conversation, but I might be halfway through and I might be saying, so what happens if you don't do anything about this and the situation gets worse? So that's kind of a challenging tone where they kind of push back like, no, I need to do it now, right? But if I didn't use that tone, I wouldn't get that emotional reaction. And then there's like a, you know, a concern tone. I might lean in and be like,

You know, what, what's really holding you back? You know, that tone that shows empathy, right? Because then that communicates, see my tone is how the prospect interprets the intention behind every question I ask, right? So they feel I'm concerned. They will typically trust me more and start to emotionally open up more. If they don't feel I'm concerned, they shut down. And then there's like a playful tone, you know, let's say if, if somebody like comes to a call and they're late, you know,

You know, I might say, well, what are we going to do with you, man? What's going on? Or I might, you know, like if they're like, hey, how are you doing today? I'm like, oh, you know, just hanging out, being the boring guy. What about you? You know, playful tone. So like all these type of tones influence the way the prospect's brain will react. Do you try to hit all of them in every conversation or is it based on the type of question or just kind of depends? Based on the type of question, right? So.

Typically, if I'm in, and it depends on the industry, right? So if I'm, let's say, am I asking connection questions to take the focus off me and put it on them, I'm going to use more of a curious tone. Like, oh, you saw the ad. How long have you been following Jeremy for? Oh, you follow him on IG. That's a connection question. So I'm going to use more of a curious tone there. Confused tone would probably be more used if I'm probing. If you tell me a problem, hold on, how long has that been going on for?

See, that's a confused tone, right? So if I'm probing, I'm probably using more confused tone. And it's something I actually learned on the, I know it's crazy, but it's something I learned on the doorstep. So when I started selling door to door, there just wasn't much training, right? They give you a script. Here's two books by, you know, some gurus who haven't sold anything for 40 years. You know, they're like 90 years old and I'll be 90 one day too. So I'm making fun of myself, but they're like, Hey, just go out there. It's going to be easy.

And so I learned when I knock on the door and be like, hey, you know, it's Jeremy. I'm with XYZ Company. And the reason why we're out here and they'd be like, slam, not interested, you know, just really quick because I would just go into like talking. And that's what every other salesperson that was knocking on the door selling anything was saying every day. So I'm like, okay, what am I supposed to do? And this is when I first started learning like what we would call pattern interrupts. I didn't call it that back then, but I'm like, how do I break patterns?

this pattern where they were triggers curiosity because I was learning about like how do you trigger curiosity in the human mind what's up everybody really quick I want to jump in because I am excited for our next sponsor of the show the next sponsor is mint mobile I found out about mint originally when Ryan Reynolds bought in the company and Ryan's not only one of the greatest actors of all time he's one of the best marketers I've ever seen if you've watched

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So I'd knock on the door, and I started changing everything I wore. So I started wearing khaki shorts, and everybody wears them now. I don't know if they got it from me, but khaki shorts, regular T-shirt. I would wear the old man, new balance shoes, the white old man shoes, the comfortable ones. I'd wear that. I put a tape measure on the side of it, because you've got to measure where the alarm's going to go. And then I would wear these weird, just regular glasses,

I'd wear like a $10 Walmart watch. And then I'd have like this, like those metal clipboards type of thing. Like you're taking a survey, right? I wanted them to view me as like the survey guy or the meter reader. And then I bought like this construction business.

This is a bag. So I'd buy like a, I bought like a lime green one or like an orange one. I knock on the door and so I'd be like, like looking around at the roof and everything. Knocked on the door and they come out and they're like, how can I help you? I'm like, yeah, are you guys the, are you the property owners here? And they're like, yeah, we're the property owners. What's going on? Like instantly patterned her up, triggers curiosity. And so I learned just

how to do that and I instead of knocking a hundred doors to get a sale I literally could knock on five and I would sell three out of five and everybody's like you know this guy doesn't work hardly at all and he makes five times more money than all of us like what the hell's going on so that's kind of how I started learning how to like trigger curiosity from the doors it reminds me of um a Dan Kennedy or no a Gary Halbert story Gary Halbert was doing direct mail campaigns and like

He was doing, he'd go to the seminars like, this is how you do direct mail. You do this. And so he'd like do the same thing. And then one day someone asked him a question like, if your family's life depended on somebody actually getting the mail opening, what would you do different? He's like, well, I wouldn't have body copy on the envelope. I'd make the stamp crooked. I'd use blue ink.

And so he like went to exercise and he's like, what if I did a campaign that way? And so he wrote this one page sales letter. It's famous called the coat of arms sales. Everyone see it had a whole team of people who handwrite in blue ink, put a crooked letter on a mail that I think that letter got mailed like a hundred million times. Like the most mail direct sales letter of all time made him a multi bill, you know, whatever.

But it's because of that thought of just like, everyone's doing this. How do I do the opposite and see what happens? It's always the opposite because like when you, you know, like I'll do a reel on like cold calling, you know, there's this like, there's this one industry where we've like really dominate. I mean, it's the, you know, the second largest industry to train now is real estate. So that's like,

like commercial real estate agents, residential real estate, and then investors that call distressed properties. And so there's this huge company. You probably know them, but anyways, I can't say who they are. There's this huge company that we train, and they were like, we suck at cold calling. We have these lists. And so I wrote up this cold calling script. We're actually getting a 71%. So when a prospect answers,

Cold, straight cold call. 71% now moved from them answering to booking a next step appointment, which is unheard of in cold calling. And so what I did is I'm like, okay, I've got to learn how, I've got to do a pattern interrupt.

So I can't sound like all that are cold callers calling his property. It's like, Hey, I'm with XYZ, you know, real estate and we like your house. And would you be willing to accept a, you know, a cash offer 30 days, you know, and they're like, yes or no. And then that's it. And like 99.9% say no, right. Cause they're just salesperson selling me something.

So like, I'm like, okay, so here's what I want you to do. I want you to go print off the property tax records of these homes you're calling. They're like, what? I'm like, no, just do it because you got to be authentic. I want to literally print off the property. You can get property tax records of all these homes you're calling. And so when you're calling them, I want you to hold them in your hand and I want you to like make noises with them.

So like when you call, so it's like, it's right. It's like a total pattern. It'd be like, because when, when you call, you want me to do it? Yeah. I have to do it. Okay. I've got to get the right tone. You got to. Yeah. I need actually some papers. It actually be better, but we have paper back here. Anybody got any papers? We got any papers? Oh yeah. Perfect. Give me some papers here to see if I get it. So when they call, let's see if I can remember this. They're like, uh, you know, this is Jenny. Yeah. Jenny. It's, um, it's Jeremy minor with, uh, X, Y, Z, um,

company. I'm holding a copy of your property tax records of your home there in 55 Willow and Savannah. I was wondering if you could help me out for a moment.

They're always like, yeah, sure. Because nobody's going to be like, not interested. When you say I'm holding a copy of your property tax records of your home on 75 Willow Street and see I'm doing this. They're hearing that. They're like, yeah, what's going on? I'm like, well, and I'm not even sure if it would make sense for us to talk. So that's like a push them away type of thing. But I'm not even sure it would make sense for us to talk. I represent a group of buyers that are actually looking to acquire. There's like five or

maybe six different properties there by your Willowayne property. And they were having me go through your property tax records on that home. And they asked me to call you to see if you would be opposed to having a conversation about possibly even selling it. Should we be talking about that?

71%. Yeah, sure. What's going on? And it just triggers curiosity. So a couple of things that I just said there, when you're doing this, so I remember I did a reel on this one time. People were like, that would never work. I can't believe it. But then people in the company that we were training, they're like,

dude, we're getting like 71% response rate. Like you guys just keep doing what you guys are doing. Like it's not going to work, but it's just an example of a pattern interrupt because nobody's going to hang up the phone because you're holding a pop copy of their property tax director. So it triggers curiosity. How'd you get my property tax director? Who are you guys again? What's going on? And that's all I have to do is I just have to trigger that pattern interrupt to get them to want to engage back and forth and then just build the gap. So that's just an example.

So the last set of questions I'm going to ask you now, because obviously from a sales standpoint, this is insane. Like all these are such cool things, but after you were a salesperson and you went and you built your company now where you're doing sales training, stuff like that. So a lot of the people who follow me are marketers or funnel builders or doing stuff like that. And so, yeah, but I remember for me, like I was an internet nerd. And so before we ever had people on the phones, like I was like, you sell things through email and through, that was how we did things. I remember the very first time

I actually had a friend working with me who had worked at a call center and he was like, he was kind of shocked the other way. He's like, I can't believe people are buying things through email. Like we had to do it on the phone. And this is man, almost 18 years ago. Oh my gosh. That's awesome. He's collapsing. Yeah. And I was like, how do we save this? And he was like,

let's figure out a way. So I sent an email and I sold, I remember it was a free DVD. People would buy the DVD and then he'd call him on the phone and he's like, hey, you bought the DVD and then he'd sell something and we did that and the very first month we made a $5,500 offer and the first week he sold it, he sold 11 of them and I remember I was like, we need more money here

And he was like, anyway, so it's like this yin yang of like the funnels online marketing and the, and the phone sales. I just love you talk about like for people who are primarily just doing the internet stuff, like adding this piece on the back end, like how can you transform a business? Yeah. I think it, I think you have to have the, the, the, I think you have to have the right, you have to know what to do. So there's so much, like there's so much out there. Like you said, like everything's been the same for a hundred years. Like to me, communication goes all the way back to like the dawn of mankind. You know, like I'm, I'm like very philosophical, but like,

If you look at like, you know, you study the Bible, like the war of heaven, right? Everybody's like, oh, there's a war of heaven. But like, do you really think about what that means? Like, was it a war of like tanks and like guns and like swords and like fistfights? No, it was a war of words. It was a war of influence. It was a war of persuasion. So to me, like selling, like when you understand what selling means, it's not like,

adversarial. Like it's not you against the prospect trying to win them over so you can make money. Like that's what average salespeople do. Like if you want to be like top 1% salesperson, or if you want to, you know, a company that scales, you have to view that selling is collaborative. It's like you working with the prospect to help them find and solve problems that maybe they didn't know they had. Like you heard me in there talking about like, well, how are you seeding a problem in their mind? Like, you know, cause a lot of people just don't know what they don't know.

So I think a lot of marketers out there, I think you're so great at seeding problems. I think if you just took what you're doing in marketing and actually applied it to sales, because you're good, all these marketers are so great at seeding problems in their copy that the prospect starts to internalize and maybe didn't think they know they had. But then when their salespeople get on there, it's like they ask two questions. You know, what's your biggest problem? What are you looking for in a solution? And then the prospect tells them a problem. They're like, oh, well, let me tell you, we solved that. And they go right into their

pitch, right? It's like exactly opposite of what you're doing in your marketing. So like once you learn how to ask the right questions at the right time at the right tone and you help the prospect find problems in their mind that they didn't know they had,

They start to view you more as like the expert, right? Like the authority. That's how they view you in marketing, right? So if you transfer that into sales, which that's what we do, you know, human behavior, it's actually really easy to sell because what I always say here is like when we train salespeople or companies, we're like, who has the problem? You are the prospect.

And they're like, well, the prospect has a problem. I'm like, yeah, the prospect has the problems. Who has a solution to solve those problems? You do. So if the prospect have problems and your solution solves those, then what's the missing link? Why are they not buying from you? Well, the missing link is you. It's what you're saying. It's what you're not asking. It's how you don't understand how to use your tone

Because the prospect has the problems, your solution solves those. It should be a pretty good match, right? And so what we train salespeople is like, how do you get the... Since the prospect has the problems, how do you get them to do all the work? See, I don't have the problem, right? Prospect has the problem. So how do I get the...

the prospect to do all the work? How do I get the prospect to sell themselves? How do I get the prospect to overcome their own concerns? And how do I get the prospect to pull me in? Whereas traditional sales training would be like, you got to do the work, you got to do the convincing, you got to do the persuading, you got to overcome their own objections, like you got to push and pressure. And that's only going to get you to like a certain level. And I think

That's where a lot of marketers just, you know, they don't know what they don't know because they're so great at marketing that what they're doing in marketing, if they just learned how to put that into their sales team, they would actually blow up times 10. And that's what we do. Yeah. So cool. Bunch of boring stuff, you know. Yeah. Tons of money. Well, I appreciate you coming out and sharing the stuff. Like I said, I talk about marketing with my people whenever I talk about sales. And like I said, I'm super impressed with just how unique it is.

your angle and directions on it. So I think like, like I said, it's like so many marketers, like I see your stuff and everybody has stuff so good at seeding doubt in the prospect's mind through just things they say and they ask and framing and looping. And I'm like, they just don't understand how to do it on the sales side. And they're just so used to like, you know, our salespeople are going to buy this book from the sales trainer that hasn't sold anything for this book. It's like, you know, like boiler room selling type of techniques. And it's such a disconnect.

from the prospect going from their copy, which seeds that and like sets them up. And then they get on a sales call and it's like, you know, they're trying to like, you know, push and pressure them. Now that doesn't mean you get to the end of a call or a zoom appointment or in person. You're like, well, let me know if you're interested, you know, email me back. Like that's not going to do anything as well. You have to like, we always say you have to build a gap, right? It's like, you have to help the prospect understand what the real situation is because

As you know, when you do copy, most prospects don't really understand what the real situation is, do they? Right? It's your job as a marketer or salespeople to help them understand. As a salesperson, you can't tell them what their real situation is. You can't tell them their problems because you're biased. That's just going to go in one ear out the other. Your questions have to get them to start to internalize and tell themselves what their problems are. And what that does is it starts to build a gap. So we call this like their current state or current situation.

Building a gap to what we would call their objective state. Like, what does their future look like once the newfound problems are solved? How do you build a gap? Like I said, you can't tell them what the problems are. Your questioning, your tone allows them to internalize and to tell themselves their problems. And what that does, like you guys do in marketing, is it builds massive urgency for them to want to change. You know, what's the biggest emotional driver in a human being that causes them to want to change? Pain.

pain or the fear of future pain. So if you can help the prospect relive their pain, or at least have the fear of future pain, like what are the consequences if they don't do anything, then they don't feel like they need to change. And if they don't feel like they need to change, there's no urgency for them to do something. So that's the biggest thing. I always say selling is about change. There's nothing else. But how do you get a human being to change? Because human beings don't like change.

Because you have to help them overcome that fear of change to actually get what they want. Yeah. So good. Crazy stuff. Yeah.

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So you started following me two years ago, huh? We were, I mean, we weren't even that big. Well, we were decent size two years ago. Yeah, for the first time you came to your circle, I was like, hey. Oh, really? I remember because you kept coming through NEPQ. I kept seeing that over and over and over again. And first I was like, oh, he's rapping something different. But then like,

I kept seeing it so consistently. When people are consistent, I'm always like, they're doing something or they're not going to be this consistent. I started looking deeper and I was like, oh, this is actually different. This is really cool. Yeah. Like I said, behavioral science, social dynamics, there's not much out there on that. We have a little bit of an advantage, but there you go. Well, it's interesting. I

I've been, you know, we started down this journey with you guys to start working with you, just finding other people I knew who were like, oh yeah, they're training our whole team and they're doing, it was really fascinating to see how many people's hands you're in applying the stuff and just making the sales world better from the inside out, which is amazing. I mean, it's really fun for me. Like it's, I really like it. Like, you know, we had an offer to like, you know, for a company to buy us and we're like,

Yeah, but it was so much fun. I mean, it's just money. I should really better have fun. I think for me, when I started teaching funnels to people, my favorite part was seeing all these other industries apply that I'd never been in, but I was like, I knew they still work. Probably similar for you. It's like, I can't believe this works here and here. Yeah, because I was only in four industries. I was in two B2Bs.

B2B. I mean, so I was in like financial debt relief services, B2B. I was in network marketing, made a lot of money there, B2C, door to door, B2C. And then I sold like financial events, B2B and B2C. So I was only in four industries. So when I started seventh level, like late 2018, which was just being my assistant, I actually won that two combo parts. You want me to tell you a funny thing? So that year that I started, I was being my assistant for my job. And I did three webinars, made like 1.3 million in sales, and I spent 1.8

So I'm like, I lost 500 grand my first year. I'm like, oh, it's not good to keep losing 500,000 every year. I'm like, how many more years can I keep losing half a million a year and then have to un-retire and go back to work? So I'm like, you know, then I started figuring out, like, oh, I need a team and I need to learn how to do some stuff, you know? Because you can have, like you said, you can have the best product or service in the world

But if you don't have a team around you to market it and to, you know, to get a great CEO to run the business and those type of things are really, you're going to struggle, you know? So it takes a while to, it takes a while to grow. It's frustrating, right? Cause you like, you have a successful career. You're like, Oh, I'm just going to go in here and like in a month we'll, we'll be up here. And it's like, Oh, well you have to build like an infrastructure and like,

all this stuff, you know, that I didn't know about, you know? Thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Thanks for having me on. We want to learn more about APQ and you and everywhere's the best place for them to go. Let's have them go. We'll give them one of our free Facebook groups. Let's have them go to salesrevolution.pro. We'll get about 100,000 people in there, salespeople, all different industries, and they can go there. You know, we'll give them little nibbles, and we go live in there two or three times a week, two or three times a week, different trainings and interviews with clients from all industries. It's kind of fun. And if they want to purchase...

one of our books, they can go to barnesandnoble.com. We have a Barnes & Noble bestseller and Wall Street Journal bestseller, Amazon bestseller. Don't buy it from Amazon. We have a deal with Barnes & Noble. I will get upset. You could. And type in the new model of selling Jeremy Miner or Jerry Acuff, new model of selling barnesandnoble.com.

Bezos has got to have money. Don't go to Amazon. I know. Don't go to Amazon. Please. I think it's like 50 cents more from Barnes & Noble. So we have a deal with them. The more books they sell online, the more shelves in their bookstores over the United States they put. So no Amazon. I like Amazon. I'm sure we have book sales there, but there you go. That's awesome.

Thanks for having me on, man. Appreciate you. And hope you guys enjoyed this interview. I've been enjoying just doing the walk around of your office and seeing all the books you collect and all that stuff. I'm an avid historian. I'm like a geek.

I like watching like the history channel and like documentaries all night. Saturday night, I'm like, oh man, this is great documentary. I'm like the German collapse of the, the world war two, like in Bulgaria, you know, like people are like, why do you watch that weird stuff? I'm like, I don't know. I just really like history. So cool. So I love seeing all your stuff, you know, especially with the LDS church and stuff. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Good stuff. Very cool.