Malcolm Breaks Down the Perfect Break Up Song
36:07 Share

Pushkin.

Are you managing chronic conditions like migraines, diabetes, or obesity? Discover Lilly Direct, your patient care resource designed to support you during those steps when you need it most. With options to help connect patients to independent telehealth and in-person providers and obesity and wellness education and information, Lilly Direct helps you get the guidance and expertise you need when you need it.

Plus, their online pharmacy solution, powered by licensed pharmacies, delivers your medicines directly to your door if prescribed by a healthcare provider. Visit lilydirect.com today and take the first steps towards a healthier, more balanced life. Hello, hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. I've teamed up with Kenya Barris, one of the most talented and hilarious filmmakers in Hollywood, for a brand new podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

where we hang out with people we're obsessed with and have them tell us something we didn't know about success. Season one, Dr. Dre, WNBA legend Sue Bird, Jimmy Kimmel, filmmaker Ava DuVernay, celebrity chef David Chang, and on and on. Listen to The Unusual Suspects with Kenya Barris and Malcolm Gladwell on Audible now. Go to audible.com slash unusual suspects.

Hey everyone, welcome to all you lovers out there. This is Justin Richmond. And I'm Leah Rose. We're the host of Broken Record, where we interview your favorite musicians and bring to life the stories behind their music, behind some of your favorite recordings.

If you're listening to this in the Broken Record feed, welcome back. But if you're hearing us as a listener of another Pushkin show, that's because today we're doing something special. That's right. This is our Valentine's Day special. And today, to celebrate the music we love, Justin and I are going to do what we love, which is argue about music. We're also going to be talking to some of our friends here at Pushkin, people who have equally strong opinions about the songs they love.

I'll be talking to Malcolm Gladwell, who has a very Gladwellian take about why he believes country is the best genre for love songs. And I can guarantee it's not for the reason you may think.

It's depressive music. That's what it is. We'll also hear from Ben Nadif-Hafri, the sometimes host of The Last Archive, about a love song he wrote that's so good it helped him score his forever Valentine. I think that folk music does love songs the best. But first, Justin, I'm going to ask you what I think is a central question of today's episode.

I think I know what you're going to say, but out of every genre and subgenre that exists today, which one do you think does love songs the best?

R&B. I knew it. Look, when you think about it, it's really the shorthand in music and in audio for love. Like if you were scoring a love scene in a movie for like Netflix, for like the most amount of people possible to watch, like you would probably throw in an R&B song, you know, maybe, you know, Al Green, Let's Stay Together. Yeah.

Come on. That's really, those are the sounds of love right there, you know? It's very much like what song are you choosing for the first dance at your wedding? The first day. Right. The first slow dance at your junior high welcome dance, you know what I'm saying? Or your senior prom. Like, it's going to be R&B. It's kind of the cliche genre that we go to. And I don't, I think I should give a deeper reason here because I think R&B kind of gets short shrifted.

in the music world, like, you know, rock and roll and hip hop have taken up all the air in the room for,

60 years now, since the British invasion. - A couple of years were spent on EDM, but yeah. - A couple of years, yeah, right. Skrillex was big there for a second. It's not a sexy topic for some reason. I think because it's so ubiquitous, because in some ways it's so ever present and we just find it very easy to ignore. But when you think about the fact that R&B comes out of really, like it comes out of gospel, like gospel is about love and devotion to a higher being, to God.

And at some point, all these gospel musicians that go out, they want to write popular songs or sing popular music instead of just singing in the church. And they take everything they've learned in gospel music about how to sort of create a stir and a fervor around God. And they just sort of center romantic love. So they just take God out and put in a man, a woman, a lover. You know, a classic example is Sam Cooke, who's originally with the gospel group, the Soul Stirrers.

And he releases a song, He's So Wonderful, which is, you know, it's a gospel track. Then when Sam Cooke wants to cross over, like about a year later, and wants to just make an R&B cut, he reworks that same song and instead of wonderful, becomes lovable. She's lovable.

So then how could you not say that R&B isn't like the preeminent genre for love songs? It's like it has to do with the ethereal and the theological down to the romantic and the platonic. Like it's everything. And then it just gets dirtier and dirtier as the years go on. And then we land at the thong song. Yeah, Cisco's thong song. Shout out to Cisco. I love Cisco. That's a great album. I love Cisco too. R&B does do love very, very well.

But there's other genres, too. I mean, look at Dolly Parton on Jolene. She's begging and she's pleading and she's out of her mind. Please don't take my man. But then who takes, and we love Dolly, but then who takes a Dolly song like I'll Always Love You and takes it to the next level? Whitney. Whitney. Whitney.

Speaking of Whitney, someone who could sing anyone's song and make it sound phenomenal. This makes me think of the interview you did with Babyface for Broken Record back in 2023. And he wrote some of Whitney's biggest hits. I mean, he wrote some of my favorite Whitney songs. Forget about his. This is some of my favorites. And, you know, a million other unforgettable songs that, you know, yeah, they also happen to be hits. Boy,

Boys and Men's End of the Road, Mariah Carey's We Belong Together, Breathe Again by Toni Braxton. Yes. That was such a great interview. Yeah, man. I mean, I'm sitting there with Babyface and I'm watching him play guitar in front of me. It was just crazy. And he's left-handed. He plays upside down like Hendrix. I mean, he's not as good as a guitar player as Hendrix. But I mean, it was just incredible to be that personal up close with him and seeing how...

he wrote these songs and he played for me a song he's never recorded with anyone. It was the very first song he ever wrote about an early love of his and for his first love, actually, in high school. Let's hear some of that. Here I go falling in love again. That was my first song. And I wrote it for a girl because I was like in love and stuff. And so the guitar really was just an instrument for me to

get these songs out of me. I always like to say, even when I play and learn things on the piano, I play, I'm not really a piano player. I learned things to support my songwriting. And that's what I did. Then I turned that into my first song. So I was just learning chords to support all my little songs. Wow. And for you, songwriting was about writing songs for

The girls you were in love with. Yeah, the girls. And crushes on. Yeah, crushes. And it was purely kind of an escape, so to say. It wasn't anything but that. I didn't think they were going to go anywhere. But that was the drive. And you would have been like 10, 11, 12? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Can I play a Deal song? Sure. Sweet November? Yeah. Baby, sweet November, put up the system.

That will bring us back the love that we've been through. That's a great song. I wrote that right out of high school. Out of high school? Yeah, it was because I was a man child. So it was second year or something, 78 or so. 78, 79. Right in that time. So it was a girl.

It was like this one girl, she was like the most... While we were in high school, we were really good friends. And there's no way I would have ever thought I would have been with her. But when I got out of high school, we started talking. And then we actually started dating. I remember Daryl was like, how is this even happening? How do you have her? And then I remember we went to go see Brooke Shields' Endless Love. We saw Endless Love together. And then something happened, I think...

right before we were going out going away in manchow all of a sudden she stopped calling me and i couldn't i couldn't reach her and i don't know what happened but it was just like we're just like broken up and then there was no cell phones there was no good you couldn't reach her on a phone no social media it was just done and i was really messed up about it and and that's when

I wrote this, you know, because, you know, that was the time period. It was in the fall. And so then I was thinking maybe when I come back, maybe this November we'll get back together and find it. So that was actually a love song that was written way back then. Would you have written the words or would you write the words first? I sat with the piano and wrote it. Sat with the piano? Yeah.

Wow. Because it's kind of beautiful even just divorced from the music. If you just look at the words, it's high level, you know? Yeah. It was when autumn first arrived, you were my lady. We were dating. It was the second rain of autumn. We shared a feeling. Yeah. Come on. It was like we started dating and then all of a sudden we like, I remember it was raining.

And, like, looks like something's going to happen here. So that song was really personal. Yeah. Exhale was more from watching the movie. Watching the movie. You don't necessarily have to write from personal experience. You can, but you can watch others. No, yeah, it's really about watching others and how they feel and imagining having to go through that. I'm always asked, how are you able to write for women? Yeah. And...

He said, if you just kind of think of it and think of whatever they go through and think of how you'd feel, you know, it's not that hard to figure out, damn, that's fucked up. I feel, you know, I think I'll write about that, you know. And as a kid that was always falling in love and thinking I was in love. Feeling like you were in love. You know, that's what it was. My very first song was about a girl named Rhonda Newbold. I always say her name. And that was in

Here I go falling in love again. And the second song that I wrote that I clearly remember was about the same girl, which was two years later from sixth grade to eighth grade because she broke my heart, was called The Bitter Taste of Life. Oh. Those are feelings that I had and everything was exaggerated. I had written a song called So Shy. So there would be pieces of things, of songs that I would write. I wrote a song called Tanita, wrote a song called Shelly.

One of the best songs I ever wrote was a song called Last Song Forever, which was, I wrote that when I was in my senior year. Never recorded it. I think I let a group record it as they turned it into a gospel record. Do you remember any of it? Yeah. Could you play a little of it? I don't know what my voice is like right now. When I think of special thoughts, the special feelings we share. When I think of you.

Special moments Those were special times you told me you'd come You know when all comes at least we'll float away I hope you know by now My lover will always know I will love you forever You should know my love can't get no better Last song How's it go? Than I do right now

That's a little piece of it.

But what about green flags? What if we focused on the things that matter to us? I can think of some of my green flags, what I've always wanted and valued in someone else. But sometimes it isn't obvious. Sometimes we're so focused on the red, we lose sight of the green. Therapy can help you identify green flags, actively practice them in your relationships, and embody the green flag energy yourself.

Whether you're dating, married, building a relationship, or just working on yourself, it's time to form relationships that love you back. And that's where BetterHelp comes in. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties.

Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.

Discover your relationship green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Gladwell to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Gladwell. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way.

He'd also tell you this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash Bank Capital One N A member FDIC. This episode is brought to you by Lilly Direct. Using innovation to help simplify managing your chronic conditions.

From independent in-person care or telehealth consultations to direct deliveries of select Lilly medications if prescribed by a healthcare provider, Lilly Direct is committed to making your health journey more seamless. And don't forget, Lilly Direct's platform also offers well-being content tailored to help you navigate your day-to-day life as you manage your condition. Visit lillydirect.com and discover how they can support your overall wellness.

Now, back to the program. I think that folk music does love songs the best. That's star Pushkin producer and sometimes host of The Last Archive, Ben Nadif Hafri. Folk or country, either one would be my leading contender for the genre that is best at love songs. And I think it's because on some level...

I think a breakup song or a lost love song is superior to a straight-up love song. Me too. Because I think if you're in love, you don't really need a song. You feel this kind of symphonic happiness. There's something specific that you're experiencing with another person. If you are experiencing lost love or unrequited love,

There's something about a particular breakup story or sad romance song that like creates a community with you when you maybe feel otherwise alone or bereft.

But I think that there's like wistful folk music, wistful country music kind of toes the line between these two things. To be honest, I also think that sad songs might make the best love songs. But the real reason I wanted to talk to Ben is because I learned at our holiday party that he also has a second life as a musician and as a songwriter with the band Rukin.

Yes. And this is part of my long con to get interviewed on Broken Record for my music. Well, you're close. You're close. Yeah, exactly. So this is our Valentine's Day special. And I was tipped off by our producer, Izzy, about a love song that you wrote a couple years ago. And it actually ended up having sort of like a big impact on your life.

So I wanted to ask you about this song, If I Didn't Know You By Now. So set the stage for us. How did this song come to be?

Well, I wrote this song about like a year after I first moved to Brooklyn. So I was like just out of college and I had moved to Brooklyn and I was living with a bunch of friends in what was, you know, actually quite a nice apartment. I had not made my corner of the apartment particularly nice. I was not having the best time that year. And I had, I think as an expression of vague despair, just like not really done anything to set it up.

I don't remember why this is, but I remember I had like a tarp in the corner of the room. I had a tarp in the corner of the room, like a mattress and then a saw on the wall. Oh my gosh. I thought it would be like fun to put on my wall, but it looked terrifying. And that was like pretty much it. And I remember distinctly walking into the apartment one time with a good friend of mine from high school and

And I had like change in my pocket and I like took the change out of my pocket and I threw it in the corner. And she was like, why did you just throw your change in the corner? I was like, that is, that is the corner of the apartment where I keep my change. And it was like, it was indeed like next to the tarp, like a pile of change. So there were no shades on the window. This was like a crucial thing. Um, I just was like,

Not super taking care of myself. Like, everything was totally fine. But my life was not in order. And then I started dating a friend of mine from college. Her name was Julia. And she was living in Nashville at the time. And we sort of, like, picked back up talking to each other at a distance. And then when she came to New York, we would hang out. And...

I noticed that like as Julia and I had been talking more and started seeing each other in Nashville and also in New York that slowly I had begun to set up my room. I got shades for the window. I put like, they didn't actually fit, but I got like handkerchiefs that extended them to the bottom. I got rid of the tarp. I did in fact leave the saw on the wall because that was by then a crucial part of the decor and my identity and remains so.

I don't remember what I did with the change corner. There's a good chance the change corner sort of remained. The growing up process is a slow one. The growing up process is a slow one, but it began with fixing up that first room

There was a moment I remember where she came and visited. It was early spring and we had this really wonderful weekend together exploring the city and she'd grown up in New York and I was kind of new there and she was showing me around and

We went to like a Lebanese church and I'm Lebanese. And it was kind of like they just wandered in because they were having like a food festival kind of thing. Like there were a lot of wonderful serendipitous things. Yeah. And I remember it was after that visit, I think on the day that she had left, that I was hanging out in my room and I was playing guitar and I started writing this song. Like a lot of hack guitar players, I use a lot of open tunings.

And around that time, I had been playing The Rain Song by Led Zeppelin, which is a version of Open Sea Tuning. And so I just would keep my guitar in that, and I remember figuring out the sort of main guitar line and then messing around with the words over it. If I didn't know you by now Would I ever hang the plans up on my window Falling away and pack up all my clean clothes Without you

You know, I'm not a professional songwriter. This was a song that like definitely did not come easily to me, but it felt sort of like inspired by that moment and that feeling. It was kind of like a reflection of the fact that I was noticing that my life was changing and an expression of gratitude to her for bringing me to the place where I wanted to do that.

At what point did you realize, I'm writing a love song for Julia? I think that that is just what it was. I think it's just because that was sort of where it came from. So I don't think it was a realization ever. It was just kind of, that was the feeling it started from. If I didn't know you.

So yeah, I was in a long distance relationship, both then with Julia, because she was living in Nashville, but then also with the lead singer of my band, Adam, who he was in like the UK getting a master's in medieval literature or something. And we were always working on an album in the background, usually as like an escape hatch from like one or another job that we didn't want to do. So we were always like kind of trading versions of things.

We spent a lot of time basically on every song, just like trying to get it right, recording and re-recording, that kind of thing. And I would always share those things with Julia. And she, like a joke evolved where she sort of teasingly would be like, is this song about me?

A thing that I would always like flatly deny, she'd come to shows and she would like, we would always have these long introductions to our songs, but often we wrote historical songs. It's like Mark Twain's brother died in a steamship accident and like there would be a long preamble to the song about Samuel Clemens' brother who dies in this horrible way. But there would notably be no preamble or introduction to this song. And so this was the thing I was often mocked about. And it kind of reached ahead when...

we were crowdfunding an album that we were doing, which is a fancy way of saying asking our friends for money. There was a thing that we offered that was a handwritten lyric sheet with a story behind the song.

And so Julia bought that, requested a lyric sheet with the story behind the song for this song. Oh, wow. Which, as a way of, like, cornering me into having to admit the provenance of the song. And I did not fulfill that lyric sheet for, like,

quite a while um and it wasn't until again sort of as like a joke in return but it wasn't until we got engaged that i then did actually deliver the lyric sheet with the story as a kind of like you know obviously this is a song about you and the way i feel about you do you have a favorite part of the song

I always love everything Adam writes. He like wrote the last verse that I think kind of like takes it to a totally different place. It gets like a lot darker right at the end in a way that I wouldn't have done, but think it gives it a lot of heft. So put that record on Atlantic City And we'll drive there in the dark While there's still time We haven't closed all of the doors Till the night Still feels good to leave

Well, thank you so much, Ben. Thanks for having me. This was fun. Happy Valentine's Day. Such a beautiful song. Again, that's If I Didn't Know You By Now by Rukin.

I'm not sure if Ben's going to convince Justin that folk is the best genre for love songs. But in a minute, Malcolm Gladwell weighs in and he gets us thinking about this question in an entirely different way. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you this podcast is his favorite podcast, too.

Ah, really? Thanks, Capital One Bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash Bank Capital One N A member FDIC. This episode is brought to you by Lilly Direct. Using innovation to help simplify managing your chronic conditions.

From independent in-person care or telehealth consultations to direct deliveries of select Lilly medications if prescribed by a healthcare provider, Lilly Direct is committed to making your health journey more seamless. And don't forget, Lilly Direct's platform also offers well-being content tailored to help you navigate your day-to-day life as you manage your condition. Visit lillydirect.com and discover how they can support your overall wellness.

Now, back to the program.

Yeah, I don't think country music does good love songs. I think it does good music.

breakup songs, heartbreak songs. It does the reverse. Malcolm Gladwell is a best-selling author, the host of Revisionist History, and Pushkin's resident country music aficionado. When I heard we were doing a Valentine's Day music episode, I knew we were going to have to get his take. So country music, which is consistent with its role in American popular culture, it is the downer to rock music's upper, right? Yeah.

Rock music, and I did a whole Revisions History episode on this. It was, you know, the striking thing about rock music is the inability of rock musicians to write music

effective sad songs. Their sad songs are terrible. They're just not sad, right? They're not believably sad. They're rock and roll songs that are kind of, you know, trying to pretend to, like I gave the example of Wild Horses, which is supposed to be a sad song. It's not sad.

What's sad about it? And also it's like totally- It's so sad, info country, huh? It's also banal and like wild, wild horses. Like what is going on? I mean, it's just like, it doesn't work. Country though is totally comfortable.

in that kind of emotional morass. That's the whole, it's depressive music. That's the whole point. It's the South. It's like white guys who lost the Civil War, never got over it. That's what it is. You know, I was talking to some guy yesterday about the Church of Christ, which is a almost overwhelmingly Southern denomination of Christian denomination. And Nashville is the heart of Church of Christ.

The music in Church of Christ churches is insane. The Church of Christ famously has no orchestral music. It's all a cappella, which is way more demanding. The Church of Christ, it is not a happy denomination. It's not Pentecostals jumping up and down and welcoming the risen Lord. No. It's like white Southerners bemoaning the loss of their status and be bowing their head in the face of a vengeful God.

And no piano to lift their spirits. And no piano to lift their spirits. No organ, no piano, no nothing. Use your own voice, damn it. Which is why, by the way, so many country singers come from the Church of Christ. Amy Grant is Church of Christ. Merle Haggard is Church of Christ. I could go on and on. The list, if you look it up, is insane. Yeah, I'm looking at this church. I'm like, this is Roy Orbison. They're all Church of Christ. They're all Church of Christ. Loretta Lynn. Woody Guthrie. So like...

Is it any surprise that country music, which comes from Nashville, the epicenter of the Church of Christ, is like the least happy music known to man? No, it's like depressive. So stands to reason then that like in the continuum of, you know, when it comes to love songs and the continuum of sort of emotions that go along with love, country music would fall more on the side of love.

sad over a breakup, sad over unrequited love, sad because I'm in a marriage I don't want to be in, but I'm still in love with my high school sweetheart or whatever, you know, whatever those songs are that these sad kind of loves not going right or breaking up. One of my favorite country songs about heartbreak is, I think it's George Strait. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? Which is a classic. I mean, you can't, if we're going to talk about country music and sad songs, we're starting with George Strait.

Now, okay, so I'm going to read to you some lyrics to Does Fort Worth Ever Cross Your Mind? This is the opening stanza. Cold Fort Worth beer, this is how it begins. Just ain't no good for jealous. I've tried it night after night. You're in someone else's arms in Dallas. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? Darling, while you're busy burning bridges, burn one for me if you get time. Get time paid so we can burn worth ever.

What's hilarious about this is this song is all about parsing the cultural distinction between Fort Worth and Dallas, which looms large in the minds of people from Texas. And the rest of us are like, what? This song makes no sense to anyone who's not from Texas. I want to give you a, you left me here to be with him in Dallas.

And I know it hurts you at the time. Well, I wonder now if it makes a difference. Does Fort Worth ever cross your mind? It's 20 miles away. It's a whole song. It's a whole song about a stretch of interstate. It's just so fantastic. This is what's so hilarious about it. It is so petty. It's so petty. But this is why rock and roll can't do a breakup song.

Because a breakup song requires a certain level of emotional and narrative specificity. And rock and roll is too obsessed with being universal. Yeah, they're not enough in the details in rock. No, no detail. Did Prince ever write a song about, did St. Paul ever cross your mind? No. No. No, because that's not the business he's in. He's not in the business of evoking this kind of strong emotion.

He was aware of the distinction between Minneapolis and St. Paul, but chose to overlook it in his songwriting. That's why...

He's a rock musician or a R&B musician, not a country musician. So he's saying that you left me to be with him. He's saying Dallas with a level of disdain. I mean, that's a level of disdain. No, no, no. You have to understand the song here. The reason why it's not, does Dallas ever cross your mind? That's a wholly different song. Yeah, yeah. Fort Worth is the ugly stepsister.

Fort Worth is one step down the rung. So she left him to upgrade in Dallas. To move up. Yeah, that's why it hurts. If she left him for a dude in Fort Worth, he's fine. He's moved on. He's fine. Another girl in Dallas. No, no, no, no, no. He's in Fort Worth. What did she do? Got up one morning, drove down to the interstate and upgraded her situation, leaving him in a pile of tears in Fort Worth.

But you see, this is why, and you know, I was talking to Leah, this is why I think R&B is the greatest genre for love songs. I don't ever want to be the guy in Fort Worth.

pining about the woman who left me to upgrade to go to Dallas. Like, that's why like Whitney Houston, like, you know, in her song, she catches like the guy cheating and she says, it's not right, but it's okay. I'm going to make it anyway. Like, I want, I want to, you left me fine. I'm not going to wallow. I'm just going to move on with my life. Bigger, better things like that. Like that's where I want to live. No, no. It's that you're just, what you're just identifying is that she's made stronger stuff. That's what that's about. Yeah.

And some of this is like, is bathos. Am I pronouncing that right? Is it bathos or bathos? Yeah. Pathos. Pathos or bathos? No, I think bathos is the word I want. Bathos? B-A-T-H, bathos, definition. Yeah, anticlimax created by an unintentional lapse in mood from the sublime to the trivial or ridiculous. Like that's what, does Fort Worth ever cross your mind is bathos, right? That's what that is, right? That's the appeal of the...

of the song. Is, is, so, I mean, is there a hope for the country music family? Like, you know, I guess there are country music songs explicitly about love. They're just not as good. They're just not, they're not the, the A tier country music songs, right? I mean, there's like Forever Never Amen, Randy Travis, people play at their wedding or whatever. But that's a song, but think about that song. The way he sings it, he sings it like it's a sad song.

I'm going to love you forever and ever. It's very wistful. Forever and ever. It sounds like he's committing to a prison sentence. Oh, man. What does it say about you, Malcolm, that when you're asked to think what genre might be the greatest for love songs, your mind goes to the breakup song? I want some...

I had a friend named Mike, and he didn't know me very well, and we decided to go to a ball game together. This is in the 80s. And we drove from Washington, D.C. to Baltimore to see the Orioles. And I played some mixtapes in the car. And at the end, he turned to me and he said, I had no idea how depressed you are. Because every single song in the mixtape was a song about some kind of broken heart, suffering, sadness, death,

I don't know. That's what I want in a song. But there is no part of being around you that feels mired in sadness or depression. No, but I don't like upbeat songs. It's my problem with rock and roll. It's just like, just calm down already. Can we wallow in our emotions for a moment here and not just beating our head against the wall in ecstasy? It strikes me as unseemly.

Leah, I mean, several points well taken from Malcolm. You know, I love country music dearly. I think songwriting is impeccable and they certainly do a love song and a sad song incredibly well. But, you know, I just...

I guess I just like a more happy song. I don't know if I can live in that kind of misery. I think it's so funny. I mean, you know that I love a sad song over a happy song, and I'll take a depressed, unrequited love song over a happy over-the-moon love song any day.

Well, Leah, you know, I feel like we're back to where we started, which is, you know, I mean, you're probably right. Look, the whole idea of genre is, um, and it's a, it's a manmade creation and there's probably no way to categorize what sort of genre and what culture, um,

does the love song the best. It's just, it's so subjective. It's so totally subjective. And, you know, it's for me based on my personal experiences, still R&B. I mean, I think I'm even further entrenched in my position now at this point, but, uh, you know, uh,

I love that Malcolm and Ben both have their strong feelings and I love that you're ever sort of non-committalness around any of this. No, I'm just going to keep it open. I'm keeping it open for new experiences and

And I'm going to sit here and I'm going to celebrate Valentine's Day by listening to songs that make me cry. Well, you know, no, no, no. Celebrate Valentine's Day. I made a great playlist of love songs. Listen to that. We'll put that in the show notes and listen to that. Not the sad songs, please. Wait, I just saved a playlist. And this is real. I just saved a playlist from Spotify called Classics for Crying. So I'm getting that queued up.

This episode was produced by Isabel Carter and edited by Sarah Nix. Our mix engineer is Sarah Bruguere. Special thanks to Ben Natapoffrey, Malcolm Gladwell, Costanza Gallardo, Owen Miller, and Eric Sandler. I'm your host, Justin Richmond. And I'm Leah Rose. Happy Valentine's Day.