MicroStrategy's Michael Saylor: Bitcoin To $13M? MicroStrategy's $4B Bitcoin Bet | PBD Podcast | Ep. 508
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I know this lives for me.

Alright, folks, so i've got a question for you. I got a question for you. What's the biggest purchase you make today? I'm curious, would you buy today?

You buy maybe we went to lunch, you buy something I reportedly maybe about a car today, right? Maybe about a house today, my guess today bought four point six billion dollars of bitcoin today. Okay, that's Michael sailor with microstrip.

Gy, and I here's a kick of before we get into IT. We've had him on, I think this a fourteen Michael, you've let's go to the first. We had a mother with the picture of how many signatures was on the wall.

We barely had any signature on the wall, right? This Michael, come on on the first time we're talking about bit coin every time he leaves, you know everybody who would buy bit coin or two like, man, I got to buy something here. First time on you came was made a much first of twenty twenty two at the time, the valuation ation of microstrip gy stuck was forty one dollars a share.

Then you came back december fifty of twenty twenty two, that's nine months later, the stack value dropped fifty percent from forty one dollars to twenty sixty nine. Then you came back on may night of twenty twenty three. The stock went up a little bit to twenty eight dollars.

The stock today is valued at if you can pull up, up, up three hundred and seventy dollars, give take as of right now. And I think the last time network was around a billion hours or so today network, just in these last months, I talked about folks went from that billion, billion and a half to roughly nine billion dollars. Michael, scare to you back on about, yes, thanks. Counting your money, I hope you don't mind that. And counting the .

money I get here. I like the trend. If I just keep coming back to still keep going up.

I like IT. I like IT. I like IT. So right off to bed today, bitcoins, ninety thousand, ninety one thousand. Did you already have a planning going to make the investment today? Was a purchase already scheduled, a press chew le thing that was that now the market doesn't know, let's make the announcement, were buying this.

you know, an october thirty, we announced our twenty one, twenty one plans. So h twenty one billion dollars worth of equity we're gona raise and twenty one billion dollars we're gona raise and fixed income security. And we filed this shelf registration to sell the twenty one going to equity at the market offerings.

So then the next week, uh, we had the election lot activity, the red sweep, and then that monday, monday, a week ago from today, we announced we had actually bought two billion dollars of backwards. So that was a, that was like a two billion dollar week and like twenty seven thousand bitcoin or something. But then another week went by.

So we we the announcement this morning was from last week's activity. So that's five days in the marketplace. So we did about two billion dollars the first week, and we did four point six billion dollars the second is the biggest.

the biggest yeah.

I think it's the biggest backhoe purchase ever.

Yeah yes, I see this. Your August twenty twenty, you made a court of a billion september twenty twenty one, seventy five, december twenty twenty, you bought fifty million. February twenty, twenty one, you bought billion. November eleven, twenty twenty four last week, two billion and four point six billion.

yeah. So six point six billion since we had our cordially results. So well, you know I think it's like forty one, forty two times we bought backhoe in that range.

So ever since August to twenty, twenty, we keep buying. We don't sell is a very simple strategy. The coin is manhattan cyberspace.

I just want to keep buying manhattan cyberspace. I have the story that one day, eight billion people want to put their money in manhattan cyberspace. And of course, the more we bought, the more transparent we are, the more the capital of markets get behind us.

So now if you're an investor, uh, on wall street and you're looking for the company that's going to buy up cyber space, then nearby microstrip gic stock and and some people like baccarin should they buy backs in. You know, every day of my life, I tell people to buy the coin. Some people want more bitcoin, right? The joke I have is anything Better than bitcoin is more bitcoin.

So so we bought four point two billion dollars at eighty two basis s point. So we bought bitcoin in with IT. So for the people that like bitcoin, they buy IT, but people that really like I want to borrow a lot of money and buy more.

And then there's another group of investors, the convertible board investors and and how do you buy bitcoin at the all time high and get the upside? But one of the downside, so you buy the bonds that IT turns out that our bonds outperform bitcoin, but their bonds. And so that blows people's minds that we can actually sell you a bond.

They don't just outperform all the other bond. Some of these bonds are I mean, they are trading two hundred plus against one hundred basis. They're up one hundred percent.

So they outperform all the bonds, but they also outperform the bitcoin. And that's because we've created a public company with a tired capital structure and we've got a lot of permanent capital. Then we've got the senior bonds and the capital structure and the equity, you know generates A B T C L and saw a lot of bitcoin maxes pile into the equity. And that gives us a premium and we're able to use the premium um from the equity in order to create very a creative capital markets transactions with the bonds.

And the rest of now, the question is like when you went from you know forty one to thirty to twenty dollars and the markets react into you, Michael sailor was wrong. He he made a mistake. Look, what's gona happen to all as investors money? Biggest mistake.

He's gonna a margin call. He's about to lose at all, right? Did you ever get a margin call that that ever happened? nothing. We even close to gin, not even close. Why to go?

Although we just work. I mean, like most of our dad is convertible. Dad is not marginal.

Call, I mean you can't call IT, it's unsecured. No record. I got IT. I like so we borrow a billion dollars for five years for zero percent entries. There's no margin call possible.

Who gives you a billion hours for five years at zero percent? Ah that when money was conditional.

actually they still do. We we barred a billion dollars uh, two months ago at eighty two basis points. And so the way that works is we're selling convertible bonds. And the convertible bonds have a bond component and then they have an option component like a call option. And so the convertible orbit treasurer and the options traders, they like the volatility in the stock.

You know, one thing you might not know is as we have the most volatile ck in the S P five hundred, so if you took all five hundred stocks in the S M P, five hundred said, which is the most volatile, like we're like a hundred wall. The S N P, the vicks is like fifteen. You know most of the m mag seven stocks they would be like twenty, twenty five wall bitcoin is fifty, so it's like three to four times the volatility of the S M P index microstrip gy, we lover the big coin, so we get two x sets, so we get to one hundred.

And conventional investors are afraid of volatility. You know, they fear IT like, I can't hang of volatility. But volatility is is like rpm in an engine.

It's like spending at one hundred rpm instead of ten rpm. So uh, if you plug volatility in the black sholes equation and the option to a lot more valuable if you have volatility. So when i'm selling a convertible bond, it's got an option attach to IT.

So so if you are an investor, you want to buy a convertible bond from a company with large volatility, large liquidity and durability, right? You want to know the company is going to keep going. But if you think about liquidity, that's like energy.

So like maybe I spend I spend that little merry Christmas had you know at fifty rpm, it's little kids toy like little also would propeller on your kids toy. But if I take a baseball bat and I spent IT at one hundred R P M, it's weapon. But if I take a um twenty ten fly wheel and I spend one hundred or A P M, it's it's turbine.

Like I can I can move a ship. And so we have on now we have thirty billion dollars were the capital. And when we're spending IT at one hundred wall, that's A A huge opportunity for options trader.

So there's a massive options market, a massive amount liquidity, a massive amount of volatility. And so the convertible arbitrage guys, let me say different. If you have a hundred wall, you can generate one hundred percent interest just by selling the upside like so people, there are funds like M, S, T, Y.

All they do is just sell the calls. They they just sell the volatility, and they generate like a hundred eighty percent divided. U so who who allows us the money? People that want that volatility, because the volatility is worth a lot more than getting paid twelve percent.

And so who was giving you the money? Who's a comic from what is the typical investor looks .

like look like well, this a IT depends for for the equity. Um it's bitcoin maximum m that people that believe in bitcoin that want to outperform bitcoin. Uh it's also institutional investors are like bitcoin, but they can't buy bitcoin because of their charter.

They can only buy an Operating company. Met many investors have large polls of capital and they're not allowed to buy the commodity. They have to buy a company.

So the question went, a lot of people ask, so why would you would you give you your money to microstrip gy to invest? Or why not just go, you do yourself on bibit coin? This is because some chance to .

do that as a lot of answers. That one is, can you borrow a billion dollars for free for five years with no recourse and unsecured? Probably not right.

Individuals can borrow money for free for a long period time. It's difficult. Companies can.

So so one reason why is because we can bar four point two billion dollars unsecured for a long party time and pay less than one percent interest. So when you're investing with us, you're not just getting the big coin. You're getting the access to the company that has the cheapest cost to company.

We probably have the cheapest cost capital in the entire market. Like if you look at every S N P company, if you look at every company in the market, who else can borrow a billions of dollars for less than one percent interest? So one thing they want is they want our our financial power.

But then if you go to europe, uh like in the U K, I think, uh, it's in. Possible it's illegal for a, for A U. K.

Investor to buy the coin. They can't like the regs, don't allow them to buy IT anywhere in the U. K. They can't buy IT. And they are like retirement fun. They like they have retirement plans and for one k, so a lot of times they are regulations that prohibit investors from buying bitcoin. But they can buy companies where company so they can buy our stock.

So if you had money locked up in your retirement plan and and you love the bitcoin, but you can buy the bitcoin, you can even buy the etf, you can buy microstrip gy, there are a lot of polls of capital that they they could buy us. And there's another example just you know there's been no options market on by coin ts and you can't margin IT so you can't borrow against them. But with microstrip gy, we have very healthy options within eighty billion dollar open interest in our options market.

That's extreme like the options market in our stock is twenty eight bigger than the options market in beto, which is the only bitcoin E T. After had options. So sometimes people want want to use those for leverage.

And then the last point is you can't borrow against those etf, but if you had a million dollars of apple stock, you can borrow again against that is so far a plus one hundred basis points. If you have a million dollars a microstrip gy stock, you can borrow against IT. If you have a million dollars worth of I bit or A B T C.

you can't what percentage microstrip gy stack is in bitcoin? So one hundred percent or was the .

percent of IT? Not the technology.

I know the technology, but of the investments you guys make. What percentage is bitcoin?

We have thirty billion dollars of bitcoin, and we have sixty million dollars of cash. I ninety .

nine point something .

that all of our liquid as are big, where a very pure plan and we don't diversify and we don't hedge. Sometimes people say, what what are you diversify or why don't you hedge? And the answer is because everybody that buys are stock doesn't want us to hedge.

everyone. The people that shot my stock, they want me to be long. The people that are long want me to be long. Bitcoin, um you can diversify using our stock.

If you want to be five percent exposed, the big coin, you can either buy five percent, you can put five if you got one hundred million box and you wanted five percent big coin, you could buy five billion dollars of ibt. Or you could buy less. You could buy two or three million dollars of microstrip gy, because we're like two x bitcoin. So, and if you are been ninety eight percent something else at your decision.

I onder I wonder who short of you guys, i'm looking at cars, sill capital, a hatch fund, uh, that has shorted microstrip. Gy, right. Who does anybody else that's known that shorted you guys that was against you?

First of all, I think there's like thirty five or forty billion dollars of put interest, short interest in the options market a lot and this probably billion ten billion dollars of short equity. But uh, they found two category. Some people uh don't like crip do or they don't like bitcoin actually.

So that's one reason they might short IT because they don't like the asset class and they just short IT. Another group of people might be macro traders and maybe they're shorting IT to hedge another bullish play or because they think there's could be a negative macro o event and and bitcoin is a macro asset. So if you want to take a negative short macros ly like a like when there's a missile scare, the iran israeli missile crisis and people think there's going to be warm in the middle, bitcoin trades down.

And so if you you know on saturday night or something or if you think something like that, you might want to take a short macro. You and because you can't short bitcoin with leverage, but you can short microstrip gy with, you know, with these options. So if if you want to just a micro o handle, you might do IT. And then the third class are these arbitrageur that think that they want to short microstrip gy and go long bitcoin because they're gona bet that the premium we trade against is gonna press and that was the Carole le .

trade in an article three years you're planning on buying another forty two billion .

hours a bit going .

yeah so you can get enough of this.

No, I mean, I lock. I think bitcoin was a you know IT IT was a ninety billion dollar s class in march of two thousand when I was first look at IT. And then by August was about one hundred and eighty billion dollar a asi costs.

And right now, four years later, at one point eight trillion dollar asset class. And I think it's going to eighteen trillion than one hundred and eighty trillion, and it's gonna go beyond that. So I think it's a very simple thing. I think bitcoin is gonna grow from point one percent of the money in the world to seven percent of the money in the world over the next twenty one years. And of course.

you should just go long and keep buying IT point one percent to you said seven percent.

yeah. It'll go from like one one point eight trillion to two hundred and forty trillion dollars and it'll go twenty nine percent a year. A R R. That that is my base case.

And i've heard you say that in twenty one years is going to be a thirty million hours.

thirteen thirty .

million coin, thirty at twenty and nine percent.

Every big coin you don't buy is going to cost you thirteen million dollars, my friend.

So let me, let me, let me ask.

This was for bitcoin, for I is gonna be a fifty five million, fifty dollars things.

Let me, let me ask this question. Let me ask this thing. So right now, what's microstrip gy war today? What's the number? Seventy four billion, whatever the number was right? Can you look at microstrip gy market cap? I'm just here. Okay, seventy three billion hours today.

If you're saying point one percent today, it's gonna go to seven percent, that's seven hundred x right? So if it's ninety thousand today, if I do thirty million divided by ninety thousand, well you're expecting to one hundred and forty four x microstrip gy and twenty one years. If I do one hundred and forty four times, seventy three billion, you're estimated to be attending to have trial accompany and twenty one years. So is that correct?

Give ten. Yeah I guess with that, matteo, the coin goes from ninety thousand to thirteen million. So multiple thirteen divided by ninety thousand and get you into a big number.

You you given that.

but is forecasting thirty trios. So we're still chasing after the robots at the self in cars.

So the dirty trillion, his forecasting is what that's not a bit point. That's just what he's forecasting a tesla on and that's what he saying he's going to be at in in twenty one.

What I heard and I don't I sure I think he's going to go faster. I don't think he's said twenty one. yours. Mine is a long range forecasts. I don't know what time frame.

how do relationship we all .

love you on. okay.

So but but you're you're also super cycle competitors as well. I don't think you're guy that sitting on the sidelines just wanting to be you're .

also very common in my lane. He does rocket at the satellite and cars and robots. I'm going to stay in my lane. I'm just let me .

let me ask us when somebody sits there and you're like, okay, I want to build the company right now. If you build company and you're gna take the money going to say i'm gna reinvest in in whatever I Operate, okay? And what I Operate, I can foresee a growing IT pick a number hundred percent year, okay? Even if you grow company hundred percent, you let you to say your first you do whatever million box, okay?

Second year you do two million, four eight, sixteen million, thirty two million, sixty four million, hundred and twenty eight million, two hundred fifty million, half a billion, one billion, two billion, four billion, eight billion, sixteen billion, thirty two billion, sixty four billion, hundred and twenty eight billion, two hundred and fifty billion, half a billion, one trillion. Let's look at this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirty, fourteen and fifteen, sixty, seventy, eighty and one thousand and twenty twenty one. If a person started a business today that did a million dollars this year and they grew out a hundred percent the next twenty years, even in twenty years when you attend and to have trillions of company, they're just going to be a trillionth company. So you're seeing this as rather than Operating a company, we're gonna Better off just knowing what's gonna happen a bitcoin, because bitcoin is going to be the next man happened.

Basically what what i'm saying is the the the twenty nine percent A R is the risk free cost of capital in the crypto economy. And and the way you get to that number is big points been going up about fifty five or sixty percent year for the past four years. It's been going up a little bit faster before that.

But right now, bitcoins appreciating sixty percent a year. The S N P N X, which is the conventional cost of capital, is more like fourteen, fifteen percent a year. So if you got like a four x difference, the the mainstream economies post fifteen points, backhoe is sixty.

They're going to converge. Bitcoin is a bitcoin gets to the size of the S M P when it's one hundred true or two hundred million and it's close to the S M P. It's going to be one point five x the performance of the S P and one point five x the wall, the vics, which is the S P.

Volatilities, about fifteen. The A R S, about fifteen bitcoins like sixty, sixty. I mean, this, and you you can, you can figure that out from the law of large numbers, when bcc coins, one hundred trillion dollar or asset class is not gonna be as well at all.

And of course, at some point, companies in the S. N. P. Are all gonna hold bitcoin. And so like if microstrip gy gets in the S M P in tesla owns bitcoin and other companies of microsoft starts buying bitcoin, pretty soon the performance of bitcoin is going to goose up, is going to is going to improve the performance. S, N, P, and and bitcoin is gonna converge. Bitcoin is always gone to be more volatile because it's twenty four, seven, three, sixty five and and IT. And it's always going to be higher performance because he doesn't have the risk factors of property or .

companies and the alike. I think this is what you show right, shown present bds gold and last four years six percent and real estate tens M P fifteen.

You know that that's a very useful chart. You can pretty much understand the world if you focus on that, which is. If you capital alizon bonds, your minus five percent, that's why all the banks are are struggling and that's why Operating companies can accumulate capital because what that's telling you is that if you're using bonds as capital, it's toxic.

It's sucking five percent of your life out of you is and look at the cost of capital fifteen percent. So here, if you use bond, your minus twenty percent versus the S M P, that means that is an awful in a way to build shareholder value. If I ask you, do you want to hold a hundred billion dollars of cash and bonds and your apple or microsoft answer is no, because as minus twenty percent, you might just give me back to the shareholders.

They put in the S, P, N, X. And i'll look at the other side, right? Big coin is four x that so if I said you could put one hundred billion dollars into bonds, or one hundred billion dollars into the S P.

A, or a hundred billion dollars is in the bitches in which are the three church to do you want? It's pretty obvious. You take the sixty percent. So what microstrip gy did is we capitalized on bitch coin, which is sixty percent, and then we levered IT up with cheap convertible dead and equity raises, and we got to one hundred twenty percent.

And that's how we ran thirty x like that's why we are performed in video like we're two or three x and video over this time period because we're actually capitalized. Now coming back to the idea of growth, look the best. The big idea here is there's is there's four hundred fifty trillion dollars of money invested in bonds, invested in real estate, invested in quality by wealthy uh, individuals, families and institutions.

And it's just for a long term, long term store of value. People that are wealthy just want to stay. Wealthy people just want to keep their money. So they're buying these store of value assets from the twenty years century.

And those store of value assets, they can bleed three percent energy because of famine and hurricane war, inflation and competition and obsolescence and accident and ports and fill in the blank with all the things that cause your investment not to work that three percent of foreign fifty trillion, that's like ten fifteen trillion dollars of entropy of chaos every year. So the big idea is, the book is just here. The money is just running from the twenty century to the twenty first century, is moving from physical space to cyber space, is moving from the finance space to the digital economy, the and along to the digital.

What we're saying is sometimes the most look rational thing you can do is do nothing. That is to say, i'll give you example. You have a billion dollars.

You're in africa. I tell you, you can go in invest in anything in africa. You're got to hold up for thirty years.

I'll give you a thousand guys to analyze everything or you can buy a billion dollars of bitcoin and you're like, well, the billion hours of bitcoin is doing nothing like, yeah, you're keeping the billion dollars forever and you're doing nothing. The billion dollars investing in africa is i'm taking egyptian risk. I'm taking south a, i'm taking zombie a central africa risk i'm take, i'm taking nigeria risk.

I'm taking risk on that range. So most of the time people have to take risks, and then they gotta worry about IT. Bitcoin is, is risk strip away from the capital and an inflation stripped away from the capital. So when I evaluate any investment, my view is okay.

Well, is you going to give me a risk free twenty nine percent A R by coming back? That is like sixty percent A R collapsing down to like twenty percent over twenty one years, and the average works out twenty nine percent. And the assumption is the the dollar supply keeps growing at seven, eight, nine percent.

And then you got an additional game because we invent robots and A I and flying cars. And so so the the actual S P index is growing because the us. Prints more dollars, but is also growing because we invent obscene, call useful things like the iphone or like a electric car.

So the future is good, but at the end of the day, bitcoins future is just pure digital capital. And and I look at IT is, why don't I just keep buying something going up twenty nine percent? All I gotto do is borrow the money or raise the money at a cost capital less than twenty nine percent over twenty one years.

And you know, IT IT makes sense for us as where a peer play, right? People want us to do that. I mean, the people that are short, they want us to be peer play. The people that are long want us .

to have a sense spiring honest relationship both ways. The guys that want you to fail, they want you to think long term because they want you to fail long term. So you're patient about this.

So they going to make money off you. But the guys that also prove you they also want you to be a long term that you're patient with IT. And I get that part yeah I guess the question the part that you explain that, which I was very simple, was this is something anybody can do is duplicated. I'm not sharing anything with you. That's complicated, rop. Can you go to that one slide that you he should about manhattan, which I thinks the best one if you can go to the one with manhattan where you're breaking down the um the different ones that yet that's right there yeah this is the one sixteen twenty six manhattan can zoom a little bit robs so I can see IT. You know what was that sixty guilders?

What i'm saying is if you have a chance to buy manhattan for sixty golder in sixteen twenty six you should buy IT. But what I what I would say, which is deeper, is you could buy manhattan real ee state every decade for three hundred years and always pay more than the previous guy paid. And I would still be a good idea.

And that's because it's the greatest city in north america. Everybody wants to do business there. There's a limited amount of land. It's on a it's a perfect rock, limited amount of land. So there's never a bad time to buy.

Even if you look at this to lusiva. We bought for fifteen million at six point three payoff, twelve trillion, california, eighteen forty eight, four eighty million, seven point seven eight trillion, alaska for seven point two million and eighteen sixty seven it's a trillion seven, eight, seven point eight. You're saying bitcoins is going to be two hundred and forty trillion and twenty one years.

Yeah.

yeah. Just very easily the way you say it's not a big .

deal to be and they take away from that slide. Is this the key to getting rich is by scarce, desirable property pay for IT with you pay I mean, how much just a guilty world today, like pay for IT with money you printed, borrow the money. But, you know, we borrows the money to pay for.

Alaska in the country was broken in two hundred and sixty seven. We just fought the civil war. But what do we do? This guy, seward, had the vision to to print a seven point two million dollar check pay off the russians. And so number one thing by the property, number two things hold IT for a long time, right?

I mean, because I might not feel like much, but when you're compounding over one hundred years or two hundred years and so so what all those four have in common, where there are also something you would want to hold for more than one hundred years. And so what is bitcoin? Bitcoin is the next frontier.

We've already gone as far west as we can go. Now we have to go to cyber space. I mean, eventually we'll go to outer space, but you know that we're waiting for upgrades and propulsion to go to mars and the asteroid.

But between now and then, you got a cyber space. And the real point is chinese billionaire, russian billionaire, rican billionaire, south american billionaire company on the planet would rather have their money in the us. But they can't get IT to the U. S.

So where else can I put IT? I can put IT into the city of bitcoin. I buy bitcoin.

I sell africa, I sell venezia A. I sell russia, I sell siberia. I sell china.

I buy bitcoin. Bitcoin is digital capital. Everybody wants her. Everybody knows about that. No one can steal IT from you.

And and what's the use case? What the use case is to get rich or stay rich, which is like half of everything. I think the great irony is people can't figure out what is good for. It's like for the last ten thousand years, people have been trying to figure out how to get money and keep IT. What is good for is the worth that allows you to power your family, your country.

your company. Yeah, I sign an article where you you were suggesting apple should buy one hundred billion notes, a bitcoin. You said bill gates call if you want to make the next trillion, meaning by bit point. And when I saw the number, they are just recently came out is that broke are a half away from that mistake. They're sitting on three hundred and twenty five billion dollars of cash, hundred thousand, thousand, thousand of cash where they're sitting at, if you write area three hundred, twenty five billion notes of cash or any of these guys and communication what you have you spoken to build gates or warm buffet or ten cook.

any of them. I mean, I speak to anybody about this and confidence, but then I never disclose what I say or that I spoke to them. But I do speak to a lot of meg, billionaire and public companies about IT, and I make a few points on this one that that thirty two, three and twenty billion that is destroying thirty two billion dollars a year.

They are destroying three billion dollars a month and capital because they are they're in generating a three percent after tax yield, the best and the cost capitals fifteen percent. So take twelve percent negative real yield on that. That is the cost multiple, thirty, three hundred and twenty five billion times twelve percent.

That's what the shareholders are paying right now for that. The second point I make is if you look at microsoft example, mi ninety uh eight point five percent of the equity value of microsoft is based on forward expectations of really earnings and one point five percent of the value of microsoft is based upon tangible liquid assets. And another way to say that is microsoft is one hundred and forty four times levered to their cordially earnings.

If they are in three billion a quarter or or x billion, whatever the number is a quarter more than that, I guess. But are you multiply by one hundred and forty four x right? And if they missed by a billion, it's one hundred and forty four billion where you you move.

And the reason why Operating companies are like that is because the S C C thirty three act and the S C C forty act. Uh, required that Operating companies hold no more than forty percent of their liquid assets and securities. So Normally that use treasury bills and treasury bill, as we just showed on that charter.

Toxic it's toxic capital. It's poison minds. what? Just inject poison in the revenge, right your your bleeding ten percent of your capital a year so they don't keep the capital. And bitcoin is a major uh revolution because starting in twenty twenty five, you can uh you can account for bitcoin on fair um on fair value basis, which means the big coin is just as good as treasury bills and it's a commodity so you can have a hundred percent your baLance sheet and bitcoin and what that means is microsoft, if they just if they just stopped dividing out their cash flow and stopped buying back their stock and they convert to a bitcoin by, and you crank in like A A A conservative, like a twenty one percent assumption, like half their cash flow and bitcoin, you make a trillion dollars over ten years. You know you put all your cash in a bit when you make two four, two to four trillion dollars for the shareholders.

right? If burke shared did that.

no. If if microsoft did microsoft, if burker did IT, they would make more right? I mean, we've got IT. If they flit that you put three hundred billion dollars in the bitcoin and grow twenty one percent, you're generating sixty billion dollars year of investment income.

How much how much do you call? Call like meaning how much do do clients call you? Verses you out, call them. Are you also .

people contact me? Okay, like i'm i'm not out there. Like I I i'm not out there, uh, trying to get in the doors to pitch this.

I just do IT as a public service. I mean, my my day job is I focus on microstrip gy and our capital markets activity. You know we're going to do an equity or a debt race or something. And then my my copious free time, I advocate educate on bitcoin. And then as result of that, and i've got three point seven million followers, so I get a lot of people, a lot of inbound people. I talk to people like similar scientific, you know, where where this CEO calls me and says, I want to talk about what you did explain IT or and i'll get inbound calls from people that want to be on a bitcoin standard, not explain what we did and how we did IT. And sometimes i'll brief the board of directors or the officers and director.

but how often are those calls prime ministers or presidents of countries?

Sometimes it's politicians, it's sometimes its governor. Sometimes it's senators. Sometimes it's congresswomen.

Sometimes it's lot .

you I just I .

just i'm asking a question is like I wonder if if you would be, you know uh, open to the idea or would that even be that way? Because I think in this space, if you were to call somebody, I broke her. And hey guys, can I come? Can we spend an hour together? Can we get thirty minutes together to talk about this, you know, to see what that will look like. I wonder what that conversation would look like with you on buffer if you SAT across .

from each other. No person I be want to bet you that if I had an hour alone with buffett in a calm environment, i'd walk out and he would say, this big things, a pretty good idea charly. What I like that were gonna buy some.

Have you made the coco?

I have not. Why not? Because big coins on the need to know basis, and people have to need, they have to feel like they need to understand they have got a problem in order, have an open mind. And if they don't if if they don't acknowledge they have a problem, they don't have an open mind and they take a conventional view toward the world. It's like the people with a with a strong corporate view and a healthy company and a strong conviction of their company, they don't have an open mind to a profound paradise shift, don't they don't want to embrace third .

idea I all the about that could be seen as a public service, and you want to be a public service. So if you were to make that public service phone call, and you guys set and spoke, and you went to all my hand, all of us, and he comes out and says, you know, we've made a decision to five hundred billion hours a bit point after my conversation with Michael sailor.

I think that's a public service. I will say for the record, i'm happy to go visit anybody that has a hundred billion dollars of cash, that sitting and and burning ten billion dollars a shareholder value a year. I will go visit you and and I will I will provide you with all of the information you need order to be convened that you should flip to the big coin .

stand got hundred twenty five billion. But ah when I looked at the numbers with you guys, you got roughly what is a three hundred and thirty one thousand and found them mistaken. Is that how many two hundred? Thirty one thousand? Two hundred bitcoins. Morning and I saw that black rock there bitcoin trust that I bit, uh I share has roughly four hundred and seventy one thousand three twenty eight as of november fifteen, which is two point two percent.

Their head of us some jealous.

So but here's a question I ask if they have four seventy one, which is roughly two point two percent of all bit point. You got three thirty one, which is roughly one point five percent of all bit point, right? Neither one of you guys are selling.

So four percent is gone. Okay, of the twenty one million shares, many times you will hear that three million of the people aren't going to get access to, right? Whatever reason, eighteen and a half million giver takes.

So let's just say eighteen million. So there's another three million gone there. So you have yours, they have there.

So let's just say three, seventeen million. And then you've also brought up the idea of what I think the U. S. Government right now fun that mistake and holds one hundred and eighty three thousand bit points at twelve billion dollars right on that mistaken hundred and eighty three bo thousand bitcoins at two billion hours.

I think you've proposed the president to buy a uh A A million shares of bitcoin, a million bitt coins, which would be roughly ninety billion. And if they wanted to go to the high level, they would buy six million of would be roughly half a trillion dollars at that point if that happens. And others typically to buy in hope a situation if he gets to point that most of IT has locked up, what happens to the store?

Can you put up the slide with with the big coin strategic reserve and and a different plans there that's in that presentation. So I mean, first of all, it's a senator allama and the allama has put forward the proposal at the united states a stylish a strategic bitcoin reserve. And it's it's a brilliant, a brilliant idea that she's presented to the senate. And I have a slide in my presentation at the very end that actually shows IT h.

We don't have that one OK.

我 well um then i'll just describe IT verbally so that the geopolitical logic here is simple。 It's go where all the money he is going to go and buy IT first. And so if you knew that everybody was going to move to manhattan, you could buy twenty percent of manhattan and sixteen, fifty.

That would be a good idea. But maybe more of the point. The british came in the new world than grab the new world. And that's why I created the british empire. So the united states runs to the world's reserve currency, but bitcoin is a emerging as the world's reserve capital network.

If you just want to keep your money forever, and and everybody in the world loves that idea, i'd like to just keep my money forever. So the smartest st thing for the us. To do is to buy up as much of that as they can.

So you buy a million coin that's five percent of the network by four million corn. You ve got twenty percent the network. Why not buy twenty, twenty five, thirty percent of the network by yeah if if you buy the network, you can buy IT for for a money which is effectively free.

In fact, you could just solve the gold swap, IT a bitcoin and then his bitcoin becomes two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, three hundred dollar asset, right? You're sitting on a anywhere from forty to eighty trillion dollar again. And so the the logic of this is is pretty clear.

First of all, all the foreign capital in the world is going to be drawn into the bitcoin network. So if the united states owns IT, then that's like the same as the money coming to the us. Here's a drawn couples from russia, from china, from africa, from south america.

It's going to come to the U. S. On the bitcoin, not work at the us. IT. The second logic is all the capital from the twenty eth century, a stand peeing into the twenty first century.

So all the money that was invested in crappy bonds and decaying real estate warehouses falling down and companies that are going out of business, all that money he's going to go into the bitcoin network. So you you on the twenty first century, and you know, the third idea here is right now a lot of people use U. S.

Sovereign bas are capital asset, which as I just point IT out, is minus five percent. Every business person knows it's not as what is the S M. P. index.

So if people start to swap out the treasury bonds and they started to buy bitcoin with IT, then you would want to own the bitcoin, because that way you don't have to worry about people are replacing the U. S. Treasury asset with a bitcoin asset because the us.

Aren't bitcoin too. So this defends the U. S. Reserve currency status. IT defends us economic leadership and IT attracts capital from our enemies that tracks foreign capital. And and IT actually lays in place A A peaceful, equitable solution to working out our differences with everybody in the world. That's a business person would appreciate. And so yeah like if if you could buy manhadoes for free with sixty guilders or some glass beat or something and you knew that I was the best port in north amErica and one day all of europe's gonna and do business north amErica would be the .

best investment going yeah I mean, if if, again, if are you in communication, what trump do you guys speak often or no.

you know, like, I couldn't tell you .

if you I even talking about, you know.

I talk to a lot of people and confidence about this. But maybe more to the point, i'm very public. I'm in the the the you know the presentation a bitcoin nash fill that I had had like a million views and presentations i've uploaded the the in. Put up last week is like half a million I gets on. So everybody in the industry knows what I think .

I that's a difference because there is that. And then there is the conversation where, you know if there is a relationship for somebody to be in someone's here, for example, you know, mosque is in there. They're doing things together, right?

So what is that organization that they build us called dough, right? Department of governmental efficiency, if I them as they can, something like that, right? So how did that come about? Well, it's probably because mosques in trump, sir, and trump is always looking for smart people around them that are given ideas. I'm asking a question because i'm wondering if somebody like you was in his in his ear.

he's got a lot of smart people around him and i'm talking to all those people.

okay. So another words the answer is directly or indirectly, yes, is kind of what that looks like. I would say that, okay, I like that. I'll take that. I mean, know whatever the audience, however the audience wants to process IT they can in regards to when you see come like black rock then getting into IT yourself, you're getting into IT. You know when black rock got into IT, IT was a market ship IT.

IT was almost like a level of validation or the markets like one a minute who got into IT a critic, somebody that wasn't for IT, they're flipping, they're not buying. Yeah you know we were wrong about IT and we're doing this right. How many these stories that are public again, and that's talk in private stories. How many these stories are public, Michael, that people who were fully against that are not coming around and say, no, we have to add this to our, you know, to our portfolio.

Mean, I think Larry, think of black rock is by far the most compelling spokesperson for the bitcoin movement. Any any he kind of epidium es, the intellectual journey, which is a successful financier, first hears about IT and hear about all the negative things. And and good financiers, they go to the checkers to one of the hundred risk factors, right? Because if you really good at finance, you can tick off all one hundred risk k factor.

So you do the check, you think about IT and you think, well, you know kind of scary. I'm going to hold off on and for a bit your skeptical. I was skeptical in two and thirteen. He was skeptical. But at some point, if you're are around that enough, if there's a need, if you have a need to know, maybe you get pushed and you realized I need to open my mind and I need to embrace a new idea, find a new idea for growth. Maybe it's defensive, maybe it's a growth initiative.

And then sometimes when a critical mass of people that you respect began to speak with you about IT, then you open your mind, and then you take a position that this is actually a new, profound, revolutionary thing as digital capital. I misunderstood IT before I was wrong. I see a place for IT in the world.

Um I you know we have the same which is everybody is against bitcoin before, therefore IT. Every everybody is against bad coin before, therefore IT. And so yeah it's not it's not unique.

Uh it's pretty common IT is like one hour to denier. After after ten hours, you know your trade is like what's an asset? I'll buy a cheap and solid when too expensive.

After you know one hundred hours, you know you start to move to be more than investor like you maybe 的 事实， good investment like like apple or facebook. And after a thousand hours, you're maximum as you're like. Actually, this is an ethical good.

This is freedom and economic and property, right to a billion people. This is a chance for four hundred million companies to capitalize on an asa, which is a toxic. That wouldn't be great if you could just buy something and get richer forever without taking risk. Pretty profound idea. And so think to buy .

in and you'd have to be patient. And those are two things that are very hard because the american people, the investor, flips very quickly and they change your mind very quickly in, uh, that's why the buying whole can remember back in the days the mutual fund by american funds investment company act, whatever the of ninety four, I don't remember that.

And IT would say, you know, if you were with us since the fund started just type in investment company act of one thousand thirty four, if you would have started with this since one hundred and thirty ty four, we would have been at, you know twelve point five percent. And IT would say, but if you miss the top five best days, you at eight years, if you miss the top twenty years is what? Remember, that whole thing here is the chAllenge, right, to buy and hold this.

How do you teach that, Michael? How do you teach the discipline of binh ld? Do you think there must be conviction for somebody to fully buying to the .

binding ld every day for the past four and a half years? I get up and I say by baccarin, and then you do not sell your big coin, right? Very simple.

montreal. And by IT. And I don't recommend anything else.

There is one hundred thousand investment ideas where I might be appropriate to sell them at some point. That's why don't talk about him. I just talk about bitcoin.

And I say if you're gonna buy IT, be prepared to hold IT more than four years. They are in the short period, four years. The mid period is ten years.

The right period is forever by IT. So you give to your grandchildren so your family will be richer in two hundred fifty years. That's what I would say about big coin.

And you know, Patrick, when you look at generation, you know, when you're in your twice, you know, you have a lot of time on your hands, and you want respect and you want to get, and you want prosperity, you want make IT in life. I need to make money so I can buy a house, have a family, buy a car, do whatever I want. And so you take your time and you invested in making money.

That's why the millennial, the gensec they get cyp do they get bitcoin? Because they have one hundred hours or two hundred hours or thousand hours. Now, when you get your sixty or seventy eighty, how many people you know past the age of fifty five spend one hundred hours studying and uh, a profoundly new investment to figure out, very rarely because you've already made IT.

You got a family if you going to have kids in a family, in a house and a whatever you ve already done IT and you did IT by exercising your trade because you are good at something and you and you're confident and that your world view, like warn buffer s world view access. So I don't blame people, is just when you're successful the end of your life, you know you you you know what made you successful. You don't have a need to know when you're at the beginning of your life.

You're not successful. You've got no respect. You've got no future. You've got no you've Better find something new, right? That's why, that's why LED sample. And you know, they picked up electric attar and they played rock and roll because bed over and motorway done the other thing too late for that new thing, right? The the, the new people get the new thing.

And so occasionally you find a thirty, forty, fifty, sixty or all who will embrace the the new idea but is like, what is IT you have to be profoundly, you know, intellectual, curious, Larry think is that's why black rock is gonna make a fortune on this or you have to be uh, desperate, frustrated, nothing to lose. I mean, the truth is i'd characterised myself that way. And twenty, twenty, the stock is like six dollars a share.

Enterprise value, the company's enterprise value, six box a share. And my choices sell the company and retire or take a risk and opened my mind. And remember, i'm sitting at my poll side next to my friend eric White and it's march and the lockdowns hit and interest rates go to zero and you know in the stock markets crashing and you know and all hello break and moves.

And I say so tell me about that bit point thing again so so that's what you'll fine when you know you look at people on there, there are one or the other, but IT takes a while for a paradise shift. You know you got a we need IT or want IT, and that's why it's an exponential process. So you're .

sitting there in twenty twenty and he said, tell me about that bit going again with eric wise yeah and then from the moment he told you, what was your step process of researching? Was that in all nighter till four o'clock in the morning, you set up you like, I can't believe this is what's going on. Where are you calling friends? What you do in read what you, what was your process?

I said, give me the five most, the top influences on the internet. On big coin, you gave me a list to people, then I went, I watched all their youtube podcast, then I went, I read all the books, I read the book coin standard. I read Andrea centeno polis books on on backside in.

I watched the debates you know between eric var he's and Peter shift on bitcoin um and once I got through all that and I I had done a deep think then then I started going an execution mode. How do I get an account? How do I buy this stuff? K, Y, C, me said to me 啊。 And then after that, it's like massive uh, education with my company too.

Partly was a personal track. What am I going to do in part? What are am I going to take my company? And that became, that became, I send a text message, all the officers of the company and all the and all the directors, I said, I want you to watch three, these three videos on youtube, and I want you to read this paper about bitcoin.

You know, john ferer road, a paper, and institutional investors view a bitcoin. I said, read this stuff and they're gonna talk. And so after they read IT, I had a one on one with each one of them. And I was like, IT was like, basically doing around every after the company, every director, the company, and gradually reformed the consensus. We form teams we started to power forward.

And you presented to the clients, hey, here's what we're thinking about doing this. The direction we're going .

on is the next move. You know, IT takes from march all the way to August of a August tenth of two thousand 创， and in August tend to two thousand and twenty. What we did is we said, hey, we're buying two hundred fifty million a bitcoin, but we're also going to buy back two hundred fifty million dollars of our stock and a tender offer.

The stock was like one hundred and twenty. This is like twelve dollars post split and we offered premium. We said, well, you can tender your shares if you don't like the big coin strategy.

And so that took twenty days. So the way that we actually rotated the shareholder base and got the shareholders on board with the bitcoin strategy was we said we're doing this. We know it's risky.

We know some of you may not like IT will buy you out at a premium if you don't want to go along for the ride after twenty days. I only about sixty million dollars got tendered. So we had one hundred and seventy five million dollars of cash left.

And so we went from two fifty to four hundred and twenty five million in bitcoin. Then the stock rally generated a lot more cash from stock options issuance. We bought fifty thousand by coin, and pretty soon we're after the basis and the strategy is working. And all of our investors were on the board. They they wanted to be invested in a company on a bitcoin strategy, more then they wanted to be invested in a company that was going to continue with a conventional low .

growth approach. Let me ask you how how big of a Victory was when he talked about the red way, when trump one, and how different would the climate be today? Bit common right now at what ninety ninety one thousand, ninety two thousand and eighty nine thousand and whatever the number is, how ninety thousand seven one one seven, eleven, how different would IT have been if I was a .

camera Victory? I think if you look at um the difference in a red wave and a blue wave, um i'll take the blue wave first. If I had been a blue wave, bitcoin would grind up plus twenty, twenty, twenty five percent, thirty percent against resistance and the rest of the digital assets industry would degrade down twenty percent.

Like every digital exchange is digital tokens, digital security, digital currencies, they would degrade and bitcoin would grind up. And there be that tension that you see right now for the last four years where big coin is gradually accepted, you know, under protest. But and the other ones are are being attacked all the time.

But I think, uh, the red wave was the the headwind becomes a tailwind. Bitcoin surges up, not pause twenty, but maybe post fifty or post sixty. I think, you know we we go from that to this and then the digital assets industry goes from degrading down to surging, you know IT IT goes from minus twenty to now it's coming back.

Now there's a little more uncertainty with digits. That's because we got a way till next year to figure out what the framework will be. But basically, the polarity got switched from negatively polar ized on the entire digital asset economy to positive with the red wave.

And I think you just got have a much more bullish view toward growth and prosperity and innovation in the next four years then you want to had in a blue wave. okay. So what do .

things going to be by the end of trump, give or take? Hello, you're saying in twenty one years about twenty million. You're saying that to be at one hundred thousand by the end of the year. What do you think .

that to be by twenty? Know I I got a bitcoin twenty four model that's actually published on get hub. You can go GLE IT.

And if you go go, you can download ad IT and then you can crank in your assumptions and see our base case assumptions. And I think my base case assumptions and and IT actually spits out the Price of bitcoin every year. And to tell you the truth, I don't have to top of my off the top my head.

I don't have the exact number for the end of twenty eight. But I can tell you basically the model says it's like fifty five growth to fifty two to fifty percent year. So it's like fifty to forty five percent growth a year for the next four years. And that's like doubling every eighteen months or less than eight miles in that range.

I got IT. I got IT. So roughly three fifty is, you know we were to say three to four hundred thousand hours. That's about the number.

I wouldn't be surprised.

You wouldn't be surprised if it's a number like that. But because you're long term, you really don't care what IT is. You you can you you're playing twenty one years.

You're not playing four years.

No, i'm I got I A and all your clients. How do you sell them on being in IT forever? How sell if you, Michael, you may do what I mean.

My customers are my investor customers yeah the customers of the software company, they're getting microstrip gy software. They're delighted .

that software. Let me refer that investors yeah.

okay. Well, the investors are investing in the company because they want more bitcoin. They don't want bitcoin performance. They want to invest in the stock to outperform bitcoin. So we are a bitcoin treasury company.

And the way to think about us is if you just want straight bitcoin exposure, you buy I bit from black rock and and that's like overnight deposits i'm putting on buying, you know a million dollars a big coin. And the big coin goes at fifty percent year. I'm getting fifty percent a year.

I'm getting the downside. The upside um microstrip gy will set you bonds. We're basically the leading issue bitcoin backbones in the market.

So what if you wanted the upside of bitcoin without the downside? You know I want like seventy five percent day upside but but no downside or or something like that. You buy the convertible bond.

And so a lot of investors of ours, our bond holders, and what they want is low risk, low volatility bitcoin. And you can do that through those fixed income instruments. And then the equity holders, they want high voltage bitcoin.

They want one point five x or two x bitcoin. And so you can imagine when I give someone hf to return a bit coin in the bond, I can give the, I can give the difference to the equity hover. So i'm stripping the risk in the wall and the performance off of the bonds i'm handing IT to the equity holder.

And um then you've got derivatives in the option skies. They want tennis leverage and they want ten x long and ten x short. So ultimately, you've got different classes of investors.

You've got the ten x short, the ten x long, the three x there's actually two two interesting etf, mst u and M S T X. Okay, I think M S T U N from like nothing to two billion dollars in A U M in three weeks. And M S, T, X loss, I checked out a billion. So imagine an etf that cyphers s up two to three billion dollars of capital in like a few weeks, no marketing. And what they offer you is two x microstrip gy exposure.

So when I think about and I like, what if we're hitting, if M S T R, one point five x bitcoin, then those things are three x bitcoin, and then the other bonds are like point seven, seventy five percent of bitcoin, what will really do is refining this crude capital. I use the acknowledge of of standard oil of refinery. You put crude oil in one side of the refinery and outcomes Carrying gasoline, you know, and asfa lt.

And of course, you put kerosine in the jet engine, but you don't put crude oil in. And so what people want is they want to refined petrol chemical products. Or you can think of us as a transformer.

I want high voltage power, and I also want low voltage power from my daughter's hair drier. And you like, you know, you're losing, you know, if I put low voltage in a battery and I put in my little kids toy, it's very inefficient. There's a massive mark up in IT, but the point is the family wants batteries for the kid's toys.

I don't want to elective junior, right? So what we're doing is providing low voltage bitcoin, high voltage bitcoin. And the only way to do that is to have a one hundred percent bitcoin baLance sheet, because I have to have the thirty billion a bitcoin to sell you, the three billion dollars of bonds that are tonics over collateralized that also give you the return a bitcoin and and the frequency of bitcoin.

You know, half of this is the return, but the other half is the volatility. The reason those instruments have value is because they're volatile, because I can arbitrage them and solve the volatility. So a lot of times people think volatility is a bad thing, but I but I would say it's like radioactivity and heat.

A lot of people are afraid of a fire, and they are afraid of radioactivity. But you can't have nuclear power without radioactivity, and you can't have an internal combustion and engine without a fire. And so microstrip gies put this clipt o reactor in the middle, the company.

And because we have that high volatility, high energy reactor and where is like people like aren't you going to diversify? That's like taking this water and pouring and on the fire. Of course, i'm not going to diversify IT.

Like I give you fire, you're freezing to death. And the first thing you could think to do is throw a water on the right. So we are actually a running the reactor and that, that is really our unique value proposition to all those investors. And they can't get IT. And except from a public company that's one hundred percent committed .

to backing in, let me ask, there's rumors going on that the C, E of X, R, P met with a, uh, trump, right, a ripple. I think there's a room arrive if you want to pull that up if there's something like that.

I thought I saw something that rip will see you meet with trump critics or motif el exar surge and speculation CEO brad garland cows reMarks amid X, R, P surge and a fuel speculation trump ck, so if mosque is in there, mask, you know, my view, I may be wrong. Mask is mean coins, mosques, touch mosques, crypto mosques, bitcoin. For the most part, he's open to the idea.

He's not specific to one thing. A, the community would exarch e write down ripple. Has anything with your position with ripple change since the last time you I work together?

Yeah what I say today is it's quarrel. We have a procyta president. They're all in on crypto.

They're all in on bitcoin. They're progressive. They're all about freedom. And and freedom means in the twenty century security regime was you've got to spend forty million dollars on compliance to bring a company public.

But what if I only want to raise four million in capital? How does that make sense that I got to spend forty million on insurance? I want to take a four million dollar risk.

So I think actually when we come, come january y, depending upon who runs the C, C, I think you'll have a pro, a pro digital asset, S, C, C, A pro digital, its treasury, a pro digital. It's White house, a pro digital house and senate. Now if you want the crypto industry to grow and prosper in the united states, you need to digitalize its framework that is ethically sound, technically sound, economically sound.

And that means this is a digital commodity, this is a digital security, this is a digital token, this is a digital currency, this is a digital N F T. This is a digital A B T asset. Back token, if you define all those. And and I did, by the way, in Mickey note a can of its Jerry last thursday, which has gone viral, I said here is your digital asset classes.

Now we need the regulators to to give us that framework, tell us how I issue, how I Operate, how I own, how I trade and and if they do that, well, I think actually um we're going to see a massive explosion in digital assets in this country. There's no reason why I half the equity on the mazda can't start trading digitally. Why not apple stock trade digitally? Twenty four, seven, three, sixty five.

Why not you know why not Kitty Perry issue or Kitty Perry token if he wants? It's not an, it's not on. Or how about joe? Or how about your your company? P, B, D.

Why can't you actually go public and issue your own digital security or digital token? There's ought to be an ethical way to do IT you. I think that the law ought to be simpler, allot, to be just don't lie, cheat and steel, right?

If we go back to this, right, if if you believe in free markets, the free market view would be, i'm going to give people a way to do these things and just remind them, don't lie, cheat and steel. How many give them A A practical legal framework? If you do that, I think you've got there's four hundred thousand big companies.

There are private, there's four hundred million companies. And I think the note that I made last week as point o six percent of the businesses in amErica are able to attap the capital markets. And so we we have a crushing overregulated capital market regulatory regime.

They started in one thousand nine and thirty three. And I think that, uh, you need an alignment of the White house, the senate and the house to put in place of freedom, innovation, orient, digital economy. So I would say right now, i'm i'm fairly bullsh happened.

I think they wanted do IT. And I think that you know again, I wouldn't I don't recommend any particular security or any particular investment other than bitcoin, but I do think that is Better for the world if we have hundreds of thousands of digital assets created, launched. And i'd like to see the industry go from a tran dollars of digital assets to five hundred trillion dollars of digital .

asset come a time where you're pro rip and maybe even to the point that you recommend clients to IT is a possibility.

I'm bitcoin， only hundred percent. Like the truth is I would not even recommend apple stock like there. No, there's no security. I'm not gonna recommend .

euro percent .

yeah like I won't recommend security because that there's a counter party to a security but but that the position is like it's if you came public and you are your own security or token or whatever you had, I wouldn't recommend you either. But it's not because i'm not in favorite your business. I just think that I think that I you have to stay in your lane, right?

I'm not going to give you recommendations on diet or politics or any particular investment other than to say I think bitcoin is digital capital and it's a long term store of value. And so having cited though, i'm very much in favor of digital. I would like to see digital currencies, digital tokens, digital nfs, digital A B S that are commercialized and an ethically sound, economically sound, technically sound fashion. I think .

that's reason for store for storing purposes bitcoin. But how about transaction when IT comes down to trick as the argument typically will be made for the transaction .

on how IT is with bitcoin, I think that um there is a massive opportunity for digital currencies and that would be like stable coins to the um if you look at how people want to transact in the world, they all want to move digital dollars at the speed of light and the chAllenges in the us. There is no regular toy regime for a company or a bank or anyone to issue that stable coin. And I mean, it's two issues they ve got to resolve.

Like how do I back IT presumedly with treasury's? And then how much freedom do I have with regard to the transference as an L K Y C issue? And I think that under the, you know a red administration, you probably get a lot more of freedom.

But ultimately, it's above my pay grade to decide that. I would just say that right now about one hundred fifty billion dollars asset class and it's very obvious the people of spoken and they want IT they needed. It's a humAnitary arian thing if you live in venezuela or cuba to have or have access to digital dollars.

But I think that with a, uh, digital framework for digital currency that's endorsed by the administration, I think IT goes from one hundred and fifty to a trillion to two trillion to ten trio. And I actually think that that would create ten trillion dollars of demand for a us. Sovereign debt IT would create IT would be good for the dollar.

But I also think that that would ripple through to china, to russia, to south america, africa. The biggest geopolitical issue is our enemies. And our friends may complain because nobody wants to use any currency other than the dollar.

Look, no one wants to use the euro in europe. They want to use the dollar in europe. So you're going to actually have all sorts of politicians complain, the state department, that our citizens are using the dollar. But if you want to spread the dollar to the world, you've gotta do IT digitally. And I, I think would be good for american values and ultimately would be good for the world if we did support IT.

I want to transition to the next thing. You had a moment with a skadi pipon, which I thought was kind of interesting. You guys are sitting next to each other.

Robb, if you can play the clip and a while you're sitting next to each other. This is him, the interview asks him, I don't know. This is a rob.

I sent you one that's a lot shorter than this. This is thirty three minutes and forty seconds. There's one I sent you that is, uh, let me see. I don't if I send IT you or not but there's one that's literally here I have IT i'll text to you if you want to look at IT um you're sitting next to Scotty pippen.

Scotty pippen as a basketball player, used to play with Michael Jordan and he's been an asked of a satoshi and Peter makes claims about the fact that is known him since the early nineties. And Michael, if there is any facial reactions that should end up being a meme or should be used for all the videos, it's yours. Because focus, I want you to focus on Michael face.

My, you don't make a lot of facial reactions. You're typically very topic, but in this moment you couldn't control yourself. I wanted know why. Go head rop. You mentioned you met so toshi in seattle in one thousand nine hundred ninety three. Also he also came to in a dream um you have a nice relationship with a doshi I feel like I do yeah I feel like I have a story to tell definitely have an opportunity to medium back um in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three you mention now what happened previous said that what happened after that is he say one thousand nine hundred and ninety three is he confusing saatchi with Michael joran who in one thousand and ninety three seattle is he think in George carona sato SHE shown camp ninety three than the club who .

is he talking about you I look I like Scotty, you know and he came over to my house so we had a nice dinner on my yard and and we talked all about the quality IT was awesome. And I have the greatest respect from I think that the interviewer can can ask him an unfair question and and I was a little bit uncomfortable because I speak coin maximum st.

We we are very protective of sushi and we all and yeah we don't like well, we don't talk about sushi other than with rivers up. So um yeah I don't know I don't have much more to say on that other than um you know we know toshi came came onto the world scene uh halloween two thousand and eight and we like to have all our commentary starting halloween White paper two thousand eight on worden. Otherwise I think it's luck. I think it's constructive that Scotty pippen and one of the greatest basketball yers at all time has a relationship with socia, talks about sattin and it's it's endemic of the fact that you know, sattin the bring of fire promeus he brought us sound money and I think that's awesome.

But did you get speak backstage where you like .

is about you about about my relation with sushi si is rever .

to him to scattered, which is same? Or you're saying to you .

was I just think I think so she's very special.

But did you guys have a five lop like you?

Yeah, you came to my he came to my house that evening away. A great time. A great .

discussion. You there are anything with, you know, like.

cool. He money metal. I I have no other insight offer on the subject.

I got IT. Well, listen, the the rest of the world was curious when Scotty said that one I was concerned about your neck as I thought you crack your neck when you you turn brother, I don't if you saw that and I was a very quick movement you made and in the second part, everybody, you play one more time rob, again, just look at the neck reaction folks, not anything else. But watch this go mentioned you met the toshi in seattle in nineteen ninety three also he also comes you in a you have a nice relationship with .

the I IT is not fair that virchow a asked him the question .

and in the world, is that appropriate? Ask the question in the world, why did you .

get a little fort? Why do you think that I think it's an appropriate it's an appropriate for A A big yeah, I was like just an appropriate. Patti came on to the scene in two thousand and eight halloween with the White paper asking anybody about their relationship with the toshi before that date is that is an unfair and appropriate clash.

It's almost as if it's um uh .

IT was awkward but that's all I have to say. I'm a big fan of Scott. He's greatest ever. I'm a big fan of Sally. I would I would rather not maybe I awkward situation I was said .

you don't have to say anything. I get the feeling like IT is there an element of looking at satoshi as god, as jesus in that space? Like do some people look at him that way where it's not just this mysterious anonymous investor inventor? Bitcoin is IT like a, you know, you almost like a warship type of character.

So she's a spiritual figure in the back coy community. I mean, is is equivalent to prometheus. Proteus gave us fire, so he gave us money because of what is the first perfect money, the first perfect money in the history of the human race.

I spend my copy as free time reading economic history, and i've read thousands of years of economic history and tens of thousands of pages. And it's one chaotic, you know, disaster train rack of, we use sea shells, we use balls and tobacco, we use silver and gold. We click the coins, and we had, by medical ism in a crash, and we had fiat currency, and we had a debt crisis, and and no one ever had a money that was not defective.

I mean, I can show you examples of monetary crashes every thirty years for the past three thousand years, in every single culture. And so he comes along for the first time. He says, all your hearth money is not broken and it's so profound, it's it's like you look at this water, you know, you sit on the table and and the poor person thinks I gotto drink water and the rich person wants to drink a thousand dollar bottle of campagne or whiner sly.

But for one hundred thousand years, humans didn't have clean water. And if you, if you read the history of civilization, people are dying in their thirties and forties and nineties because the water is dirty, because they are getting infected. If you were Henry the eighth, you didn't have clean water.

The reason they all had goat is they had to drink wine, alcohol and IT, and they ended up with degradation of their limbs because they didn't t have clean water. So we only have clean water. The t clean water cleaner, a clean food that doesn't kill us.

We only have IT for the past hundred years. We had dirty money from three million B C. All the way up to two to january thirty, two thousand and nine.

We have dirty money. And there's one guy that actually finally gives us clean money, non talks, that does not kill us. So is a spiritual yeah its spiritual is like what happens when I inject poison and toxic into the vents of my kids? They're dying.

It's like forcible chemo therapy to a twelve year old athlete. You know, that's the problem. All these companies are a useful life expectancy of ten to fifteen years.

You know why? Because the capital is toxic. Because the money that the capitalized on its toxic is sucking the life out of them.

Sato SHE comes along and he gives you nontoxic money. And who else did IT before him? nobody. nobody. So, so you gotta actually hold with reference the person that actually gave the human race the first clean, perfect money. And you look after that point, you like, oh, man, like, we're not dying anymore.

Yeah, your infant mortality rates forty percent before clean water, like four out of ten your kids are gonna drop dead. And I give you clean water and I say, this is, take this, I won't kill them and you like what what? So the point is it's a pretty profound paradise shift and it's for those of us were maximum st that actually blew bitcoin is is an ethical imperative.

It's an instrument of economic and powerful what is very protective of city. We don't like, we don't like what anybody poke said. So to see, right.

you're five kids now.

I do not .

have have a family, children, children okay got a interesting um yeah I wonder I wondered like your your level of conviction that was very interesting. Your reaction to the a clip with the scattered because IT IT IT changed in a very interesting way while i'm so you're talking to you and I appreciate you sharing that with me because but I didn't know you're view IT that way.

Um is that pretty common in the space? Is that pretty common? And folks on bitcoin who are informers like yourself that they have a similar feeling.

the maximum and the maximum st, yeah like I said, is like ten hours and you're a trader hundred hours, you an investor thousand hours you're in maximum. You think it's an you think it's an instrument of economic and empowerment. It's it's an ethical imperative for eight billion people.

So like, for example, you think the world's Better with electricity. So what what if I took your family? I took away electricity.

Clean, what a queen, an food, you know, and metal yeah ah do you feel like you've been ripped back to the stone age? Like maybe stone age. yeah.

Would you be angry about IT? So what if I turn now? What if I said the ops, which is I don't think you should have those things. What if I said I don't think you should have clean air, clean food or steel or glass?

What if I or or internal combustion an engine and a take away your car, would you not be little bit angry at me, little bit irritated, little bit irked? I'm in the past, the law taking away, you're write the electricity and glass and airplanes right uh, from your family and all your friends and you're like what the hacked you're talking about. Okay, that's how we feel about bitcoin when we that's how we feel about money or in this case about about digital money.

Perfected digital money are like you're gonna take that away from people or is or if you said to me, if I said, you know, I got this idea for your kids, we're going to get queen ful and clean water in their first five years and then another friend of my says is not very important. You don't need that. I just like, what is gonna you half like, you know swamp water and we're onna have a eat mud and that's okay too.

We're going to diversify, you know and i'm like I don't feature kids mode and don't give them swann porter and by the way, they're going, you know and here's anibal tics you know any biology onna die without the an biotics like it's not a big deal. The point is yeah, we get worked up about IT because we see it's like critical technology and you're not going to move the human race forward in the next millennium without electricity, without digital energy, right? Bacon is digital energy just like your electrical energy, just like you had.

It's just like, you know, if we took away crude oil right now, ninety five percent of the people on earth would starve to death or freeze to death. The world comes to a grinding hope. So when people actually attack oil, or they attack nuclear power, they attack electricity, you think like, you just must hate humanity. And when you attack bitcoin, you attacking digital energy, right? And you, you must just hate humanity.

So what are you going? Are you going to get a gangster or is that who you're going to like individuals that are getting in the way? Is that is that like when you said if you think like, who do you think you are to prevent us from eviction to all the stuff who's doing that individuals like gary are getting in the regular?

I think it's that just tradition. There's too quite there's traditionalist. They just are clinging to the twenty eighth century. And then I think um you know there there just people that are distracted or or can you close minded and anti technology or actually there's another group, the traditionalist they want to claim to the twenty years century systems like this is the way the stock market works.

This is but in teg buffs.

in category lie mongers and that they just grew up in that wrong with that. That's just the way they've been right. And there's another side of collectivist, authoritarian ans.

I just don't want you have freedom.

Is that a year against I wouldn't characterize what I would say probably again or falls more in the camp of an asked traditionally like he he has a reference for the thirty three act and the forty act and what Frank and doing or rose about did and the way the capital markets work. So yeah you know like it's OK for the stock market to trade nine thirty to four.

Okay, there's another view, which is why can I actually trade twenty four, seven, three, sixty five? And why can I give why can I trade apple stock on my iphone and takes self custody of instead to a dude in china saturday afternoon, right? Why can't there's nothing unethical about IT.

It's the future. But I but I think there's right there's three dimensions that are do I want to do business the twenty years century way like where nasdaq is the only place. My stock trades and IT trades nine thirty to four, but not on banker holidays.

That's that's the tradition of you. Then you've got the anti technical view that no innovations like I can now issue a token in four hours for forty box, or you can go public on a deck for forty million dollars in four years. And the genie people are like, well, why can I just do something a million times faster, cheaper for four box and four hours? Why do I need forty million dollars of lawyers and four years, right? And so that's kind of, uh, the innovation.

And some people get that technology, they're protect and some aren't. And then I think you ve got the authoritarian and you know you've got the the chinese being the example of we want to give you money, but we want to people to expire the money in ninety days if you're not a good citizen. And so I think there are forces that of control. They don't want freedom.

And in the united states, we're like we go back and fourth, we're like we won't you to have freedom but we we have you know so much like we don't want you to be like I can't Carry twenty thousand dollars through an airport right now even though where the land of the free so so there, there's this love, hate relationship with freedom everywhere in the world, you know, that goes on. And then there's a love hate relationship with technology. And then you've got the systems that work right.

VISA and master caradoc and new york's stock change in dtc and custodians, you got the systems that work from the twenty years century. And if you're wanting to protect those systems, I understand why because you're worried about burning one hundred trillion dollars to the ground. And then you've got things you can do that are new, like I can move the money a million times a second for thousands of a penny.

And and what if I want eight billion a is to move in a billion times of a second through ten billion computers. And that scares some people. But that's the future.

And so I would say there's, I give everybody a benefit out. Some people are just not progressive because they want to protect the past. Some people just don't understand the promise of the future. But there are some authority, italians that just generally don't want you to have freedom. I mean.

I remember this clipper with a trump right at the bitcoin conference when he made that comment. And rob, if you want to play .

this clip one day, one, I will fire gary gangster. Or in a point of new C.

Did I didn't .

know he is that unpopular?

Why is he so one time among specifically this community, you know.

I think what you've got is a struggle between the twenty years century and the twenty first century. And I think, I think gangster er's view is, is the rules we have and the laws we have our adequate they're good enough and you you should conform to them.

And I think the the crypto community and the bitcoin community think, why can I do everything a million times smarter, faster, stronger from my iphone on saturday night? Why can't I? I want to do new things. Why can't ten million influence, like if you're ten thousand influence as you got a million followers, why can't all ten thousand issue their own token and have their own, their own access to the capital markets? And why do I gotta actually take four years and forty million dollars to do IT if it's only worth four million box to me?

There's this the tension and um the two sides of talk past each other if if gangs or had put forth a digital assets framework and he had said, okay, look, here's how your ethical issue were token. Here's how you ethical issue a security. Here's how you ethical prove your commodity.

Here's how you ethical prove that you're a currency. And by the way, don't lie, cheat, steal. If he had done that and giving people a route to register, I think ninety five percent of the industry would have come into compliance because no one in the industry is standing up arguing we want to lie, cheat and steal.

But in fact, there there was no framework. There was no process to do IT. And and on the other hand, I I think the industry wasn't able to generate the support uh, through congress or the senate, and I think the administration wasn't very constructive.

So I would say, uh, there has been a non constructive dialogue. Uh, the people in the crypto industry, their position has been, well, you know we you don't respect us so we don't respect you, right? And any entire relationship broke down to kind of mutual yelling back.

And fourth, but the right question for the crypto industry to ask, why is an unethical for katy period to issue kd perrie token into a million people if SHE has no intention of lie, cheating and stealing, why is that unethical? Why can't joe rogan, you know, raise capital from the general public? And an honest way.

Um uh cheaper. Why does he have to spend infinite money to do IT? And then why can't I trade apple stock on an iphone on saturday? What's unethical about that? And if I take you at face value, you know, the S.

C C, just register. But if I did register, it's illegal to trade on saturday. And so the point is microsys microstrip gies register. You can trade microstrip gy stock on sunday baLance once listed our stock on the baLance exchange.

The german regulars made him shut IT down, right? And so that what we really need is we need to elevate the conversation to construct constructive, cheerful, progressive. How are we actually going to make things a million times cheaper, faster, Better, more efficient? And the dialogue evolved. IT started kind of optimistic and twenty one, and then IT devolved to two sides, you know, kind of screaming at each other. And IT became a deadlock and .

very non construction. See this exchange.

Robin? Yeah, I have said that I have to .

play this clip for the audience to see ahead.

Yes, he broke the law. Your return is light to the court, and no one in your leadership here in dc has been held accountable. Attracts seems like business is usual here in, okay, switching gears very quickly. It's been recently reported. The vice president and Harris has finally said SHE craft clear rules of the road for the digital asset space if SHE becomes president.

Is this your approach to sir? Or do you think she's rebuking you because he doesn't think you've done a good, good enough job establishing these clear rules over the last three years of her administration? I think that there's laws in place.

If congress wishes to change them, mi will change them. But we are enforcing the laws, and there are many in the laws we claiming my time. Well, it's very interesting that you view your performance that way because we have a literally of court cases, extraordinary confusion in the marketplace and millions of americans pining for clarity from you.

You've abused the agencies, enforcement tools, and you have you've even bated companies eager to comply with you only to hit them with enforcement actions. You're retaliated against businesses and people who have come before this committee to talk about the next generation of american finance. And perhaps somehow worse of all, you've made up the term crypto asset security.

This term is nowhere to be found in statue. You made IT up. You never provided any interpretive guidance on how crypto asset security might be defined within the walls of your set. Yet you made the broad proclaim tion. You believe a majority of tokens are crypt al asset securities.

You did this, and you would deliberately use this made up term as the basis for your entire enforcement cruise adde over the past three years, only for your lawyers to retract IT in a footnote to a court just last week. You're inconsistencies on this issue, sir. Have set this country back. We could not have had a more historically destructive or lawless chairman of the c and I yield back.

Do you agree with them?

I I would say the democratic administration has not been constructive or constructive in providing any kind of digital at frame of the last four years that would allow the industry to grow. And I think I think what emr saying is we need clarity, but what they need is they need a constructive way to do business.

I think that answer is a traditionally less than I I think that, uh, if you add his traditional less with Elizabeth war and you know negativity, I mean, he has been non constructive completely across a variety of things that has dominated the administration's political views. Look, I read the history of money and banking and america's rothbart ds book. And rothbart ds won the great liberator, austral economists and and he notes in nineteen thirties, the thirty three S C C act IT was actually an output.

Fourth, in order to restrain the capital markets and lockout entrepreneurs from being able to raise money and credit. Car tel, uh, this is in one thousand, nine and thirty three. So on one hand, the administration and guns are have been very glowing in their reference for the thirty three act.

But the bigger issues that that no one is addressing in these debates that hasn't been addressed by either side is why does, why does in a cost forty thousand dollars to issue up a token, or forty, forty thousand, how do you actually provide access to the capital markets to forty million businesses instead of four thousand? I mean, the eleven in the room right now is the american public companies are dying. We have ten thousand public companies in the U.

S. Twenty five years ago. We have four thousand now. So the fact is we have a choking owners regulatory regime, which makes IT so obsessed, risky, difficult and expensive to engage on the capital. Mark, nobody can afford to do IT.

And if you choose to do IT, it's illegal to do every call interesting thing that we can now do. And so the the person that's in the best position to offer that framework would be the head of the S. C.

C. And gus or has has refused. And and you've heard him, he says right there, he doesn't think it's his responsibility.

He put IT back on congress. But I think that there is a dis functional relationship between the republicans and the democrats for the past four years. There's not really any constructive dialogue to create that digital such framework. Yes, and that's been holding us back.

And Marcus an was interested in that job. But if you remember, he wanted to be ahead of a cc made that clear that that's body one to one of the interviews. And when I took my series seven back in a one and a lady from caplin, I think IT was capable in, couldn't been dear born this problem? No, it's deer borne.

Deer borne, I don't know. Remember when when deer borne studies or manuals you would take the lady taught, told the stories about S. C, C.

And he said, you know, the first person that was the chairman of S. C. C was Joseph Kennedy.

Oh my god, so interesting. You're like Joseph Kennedy, a. Joseph Kennedy.

Um do you know why we did fingerprinting? why? You know, once he asked to everybody, if you want to sell stocks, you're got to come to new york to get, you know, registered and all this, nobody showed up because, you know what, you can still move and forward if you don't want the fingerprinting and you got to come to new york.

This the story she's telling us till today, we did fingerprinting because you were control of money. What how do we do fingerprinting for today for getting job applications or applications to fill out the client count form? It's a very outdated system.

The cc is and IT would be interesting to see um who what trumps going na do with us he said they want firing. It'll be again. We have a few days of day one. I'm q know what who you replace.

I think it's it's constructive to note that my company came public and one hundred and ninety eight and in one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, our socks trade on nasdaq for nine thirty in the morning till four in the afternoon with bankers hours and not on holidays.

And in the um twenty six years that have followed, there's not been a single functional upgrade like there's not one innovation like you would think after twenty six years of infinite money that we would figure out how to trade the stock on saturday at four pm. No, right. So what you have is you have a twenties century, what i'll antiquated oligos that's reinforced by a regulatory regime.

Well, i'll give another example. You have you want to bunch your apple stock. You don't really want IT.

You can take custody. It's like your bank, you know J P. Morgan and Morgan stanly has IT. They might lend IT out, but you can just take custody.

I mean, and so the idea of south custody, the idea of freedom, the idea of an open competition, what if you know someone in singapore offered you three percent yield on your apple stock? How do I pull out of the bank ended to them all? There's like one monopoly network that moves the stock around.

So we have a system which made sense of the twin th century maybe, but the point with roth parties, IT was always about restraint of trade. IT was to create a car tel and to centralize power, uh, centralized access to the capital markets to just a small set of big companies. They were locking out the entrepreneurs, bankers and the entrepreneur.

S in one thousand hundred and thirty three, it's just been turning off the screws to make IT harder and harder. And the elephant in the room is, if there's four hundred million companies in the world, how how. Come there's only forty thousand public traded ones.

And when you're public traded, how come you're not public trade? Or on saturday night, what's on ethical? What's an ethical about wanting to take custody violent?

I think I think I may think about what happen new york is exchange and and you know mazda and you're looking at what texas stock exchange is going. We're not going to go to the I and all the esg bulshed that you gather doing. Here's our works come on in.

It's all about profits grown to business. That said, I said don't know. Obviously, we'll see what's going to happen with IT.

I think disruptions come in. They no longer to have a choice. They can try to play as many games as they want to wrap.

I want to play a couple of the collapse and able rap where at thirty, fifty will finish up in five minutes. Here's a clip on when I was bitcoin a few years ago. Remember, Young guys watch stuff all the time.

Here's dan panna, who Marks the Young. He's gone on viral many times. Here's what he said about bitcoin one time, if you want to play this.

I know who's behind bitcoin and any some fucked in japanese gonna cave, I know the guy. And when that comes out, you heard here first, bitcoin is going to zero zero. And I know who's behind big.

This is why we're protective of sato shi, because people say this stuff in order to attack the network. And and it's like, it's like me saying, you know, I know who founded, you know, your religion, and as soon as I LED IT out to the general public, people realize your living a lie. I like it's just, but but the point is.

the great thing about today's market is everybody can talk someone's gonna right. Someone's going to be wrong. And when it's wrong, it's public to everybody.

We've i've had IT before. It's happened to me. It's happen to you, happen to all of us ripe on. And when you get IT at a public level like this saying you know exactly what's going to happen to IT and in a market IT sees IT, I don't know what happens, what the markets reaction to bother way last thing before we wrap up, I like Michael burry.

Have you ever had any what your thoughts on Michael burry at a position on bitcoin at one point? And he said he recommended to sell. I shouldn't say that you follow what Michael burry says a bit.

I guess Michael berry would be at my trader level. He, he he's a trade. I don't he's not a bit coin investor. A bitcoin maximum for sure is a guy probably that sometimes he thinks he should buy IT ml, but I don't .

have any other options. OK, Michael, great. Have you on again. Every time we come, I get smarter, I get Better, and people buy more bitcoin. So appreciate you for doing your, as you say.

public service and anytime.

Take everybody by bye bye ye.