Episode 391: Julia Hotz: Connection Cure, Social Prescribing, and Dating App Alternatives
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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it!

Well, today on the podcast, we have Julia Hotz, who wrote the book called The Connection Cure. We talk a lot, Julia, or I do anyway, on the epidemic, in my opinion, that's worse than anyone, which is loneliness. And that's why I really wanted to talk to you and to talk about your book. You also brought a couple of gifts to me, some treats. I did. I did. I brought you some treats. One of them looks like it's from in a...

in like a pill bottle, which I'm dying to know what this is, and a prescription pad. So I'm imagining that this is all to do about how to become more connected, possibly. Okay. Why don't we first start, before we go over the gifts, because I really want to do that, I'm dying to know what they are, why don't we just start

And telling everybody what is, because you talk, this is like the first line that I see in your book is what is social prescribing? Yeah. Because that is like a main through line of the connection cure. Totally. Yeah. So I think people hear social prescribing and they immediately think like, oh,

Okay, socialization, friendships, right? That's totally a part of it. And you're totally right to talk about the epidemic of loneliness as something that is growing and has all these health consequences, equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, the consequences of loneliness. And so when I first started investigating what is social prescribing, I thought this is how, this is a way for doctors to prescribe friendship.

effectively. But I really learned that that is just the tip of the iceberg, loneliness. Loneliness is a symptom of the way we are so disconnected from what matters to us. We are so disconnected from opportunities to move our body, to spend time in nature, to create art. And so what social prescribing does, the technical definition is any non-medical prescription from a healthcare professional that

to improve your health and strengthen your connections. So that could be like human connections, but could also be connections to causes in your community. It could be connections to your outdoor environment. It could be connections to some really meaningful form of service.

And the tagline of it, which you've got there on your prescription pad, is about shifting the question from what's the matter with you, like tell me about your symptoms, to what matters to you. Tell me about what brings you joy and meaning.

I love that. I saw that when you sent me your package of stuff. I think that's a really big point because you do mention this as well about the idea of rumination, right? People tend to ruminate a lot on what's the matter with them, what's wrong with me, and really kind of really go down a bad rabbit hole of rumination.

of ruminating and all the things and all the problems about you. And can you just talk a little bit about this more and how this has become, why it's becoming more prevalent now than ever before and what the problem is with it? Yeah, for sure. I mean, so you're totally right that a lot of that, what's the matter with you, is very much linked to this thing called rumination, where we get in these negative, you know,

Thought spirals in our head. I know your work focuses a lot on this idea of feeling like stuck and you're kind of like, you know, depressed about your depression or stressed about your stress or anxious about your anxiety. And on the one hand, I think there's been a big cultural movement to, you know, talk about mental illness. We need to talk about these things. We need to normalize these things. And I think that's true. Like,

admitting you're not doing well is so much better than like just suck it up and don't talk about it. But I also think that the way we've let what matters to us kind of dictate our recovery journey is not quite right either. Like I can't do this because I'm depressed. I can't do this because I'm anxious. I can't do this because I am chemically different or imbalanced or whatever it is. And, you know, you'd asked about what is like contributing to the rise of social prescribing.

I think it's because the way we've been doing healthcare, especially mental healthcare, is not working for everyone. It's not working all the time. You know, we know that like with strep throat, for example, it's pretty simple. You go to the doctor, you get a diagnosis, you get treatment, that treatment, antibiotics, works.

With depression and antidepressants, it's a bit of a mixed picture. Same thing with anti-anxiety medication. Same thing with chronic pain medication. And so we also know that 80% of our health differences are determined by our lifestyle choices, our behavior, things that happen outside of the doctor's office.

So social prescribing kind of says, well, if that's true, if 80% of our health is socially determined, our medicine should be social in nature too. Our medicine should reconnect us to our environments and...

especially after the pandemic. I mean, there's a reason why we saw rates of depression, anxiety, ADHD, stress, all increase, loneliness increase. And so I think that the momentum for social prescribing, which is now happening in 32 countries, is because there's a failure in the way we've been doing health care for these kinds of socially determined health issues. You know, well, it's interesting because, again, I feel like this is just constant.

common sense in a way, right? Like, it looks to me, and I'm no expert, that there's been an incline in the lack of social prescription with the smartphone. Like, I believe that since 1995, this has been on an

on a decline, socialization, the ability to go into nature, find hobbies like art or sports or just dating, to be honest with you. And it's been, our attention has then been, has been quickly drawn to,

to using the phone and having artificial relationships and friendships based on likes and engagement on Instagram. And that there's been a lot of research that I've seen that 80% of what we used to do as children has been never

now taken up by using the smartphone. So all the things that we used to do, even flirting, dating, riding our bikes, is now being basically used for a smartphone. So then what's happening in our generation or the generation now is they have no idea about all of these other things. And so this is why there's mental illness.

illness at a rise and there's anxiety at a rise and loneliness at a rise and all the things that arise. And right to me, like, it's just like, if we can just like eliminate that one major thing, I think a lot of these issues would be eliminated as well. Totally. Right. Yeah. I love what you say about, yeah, children. Like I'm reminded, I think you had a guest on here, Dr. Christian Gonzalez. Yeah. Who,

talked a lot about this, right? How like kids are just, there's no ego, you know, they just like when they're hungry, they eat. When they want to play, they play. When they want to ask a question, they ask a question. There's no voice that's telling them don't do that.

And you're right. I think that the presence of smartphones and social media are weakening that natural voice in kids and adults. And like, I'm guilty of this 100%. Like, when I'm feeling down or stressed, like...

it's almost automatic for me to just like go scroll because it feels like such a habit, right? It is a habit. I don't think it's just for kids. I mean, I say kids now because it's that generation that's coming up in the world. You're what, 31, you said, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm

I'm in my 40s and I'm doing it. So I think it's happening with everybody in every generation. Yeah. But what is a little bit concerning is at least I had that experience at an earlier age where I did do all those things, like learn how to flirt, date, bike, you know, do all the things outside because I was forced to. I didn't have a phone. And you at 31, like you still did that a little bit, I would imagine. Yeah. What is like,

But the longer time goes by, the less of the influence those things have. Totally. You know? And so to me, that's why I say loneliness is a major epidemic because it's not forcing us to learn how to interact. Oh, amen. And I love...

You're so right. Like, I think that that's exactly it. Like, loneliness is not just about, all right, like, go in this room and make friends. It's the thing that happens when you're naturally being drawn to ride your bike or flirt or go out and explore, like, everything that, you know, technology is replacing. And, you know, I also think it's very interesting in telling that one of the questions that doctors and social workers use when they're social prescribing is, like, tell me about something you loved to do as a kid.

but haven't had a chance to do since. Tell me about something. If you had one more hour in your week, what would you spend it doing? Nobody says I'd spend it scrolling on my phone. People are really forced to think about what are the things that get me out of bed in the morning? And what the social prescription does is it holds you accountable to

to follow through on that. Like the same way that a doctor's gonna write you a script for your medication or a therapist is gonna give you exercises to perform, a social prescription is about giving you a time and a place and a group to hold you accountable to take up biking again or join an art class or volunteer as some of the characters in my book do. But it's really about, I think, like reconnecting to that inner child

that so many of us, like you and me, were privileged to have a childhood that let us do those things. Yeah. I mean, I guess where does this...

terminology social prescription even come from. Yeah. Like to me, that's just like basically very common sense. Like go out and live your life or go out and do something like leave your desk or get up and move. Don't be sedentary. Like, do we really even need a name for this? I mean, at some point, like are people, you know, I said, I saw one of your things in your book that talked about one in five people in the UK are going to the doctors because they're just

basically lonely. They're not going to the doctor for anything besides that. So where is this even coming from? Did you just make up this thing? Let's call it social prescribing. To me, it's like, isn't that what, duh, isn't that what we should be doing? Yeah, for sure. So the name actually comes, the name's like, it's not a great name. It's

Because people, again, they think, oh, social prescribing, friendship, but it comes from... Or, by the way, not even just friendship. It's just like, oh, yeah, like maybe you should leave your house. Maybe you should go outside and go for a walk. Right. You know, like... Right. Exactly. And all those things, going outside to go for a walk, your exercise, your nutrition, all of these...

things that are non-clinical refer to, there's a wonky name for it, your social determinants of health. So social prescribing is anything that addresses your social determinants of health. I didn't come up with it. What's funny is that like nobody really knows

How this term originated, like the founding doctor is like, yeah, I don't know, but I know that people hated it. The reason why doctors hated it because they were like, this seems soft, social prescribing. And the community organizations hated it because they were like, this is about medicalizing something that's so intuitive and effective.

shouldn't be, you know, situated in healthcare. And so he was like, all right, well, if both parties that are participating in this, like, hate it, then it's probably the right name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But what's different, I will say, sometimes people are like, how is this new? You know, doctors have been telling us to get our 150 minutes of physical activity. They've been telling us, like, don't be stressed. They've been telling us, you know, to eat healthy, all these things. Right. What's different now is that it is...

an actual prescription to do these things. Instead of saying, go exercise more, it's saying, listen, Jen, I'm going to write you a prescription for a spot in a cycling group that meets Tuesdays at 10 a.m. You don't have a bicycle? I'm going to give you a bicycle. And guess what? There's going to be nine other people there who are holding you accountable to show up week after week.

Okay, so what I'm hearing is it's not just a suggestion. Exactly. They're actually putting together an implementation program. Exactly. So it's like, okay, you are going to go biking at 3 o'clock on Tuesday, at 12 o'clock on Monday, and your bike will be available. So there actually is an action plan.

and it's an action step plan. Exactly. So it's not just like in the air of what you should, may, or should not do. Totally. Right? Because that to me, that is like, by the way, that's like 99% of the problem, right? Right.

I feel like most people, this is where I got kind of like confused. It's like, I feel like, forget about me because I'm doing those things. I'm not a good example. But I will say a lot of people outside of people who are doing it for a living, like know what to do. They just don't have the motivation or the discipline to do it. And so they're not taking that next step.

A hundred percent. You know from your work, there's a million excuses people can come up with why they're not doing the things they know they need to do to be healthy. Right. And so if someone's giving them that prescription of saying, okay, you need to go biking, here's your schedule, what makes that any different than...

Someone else, you looking on a schedule at MindBody and saying at SoulCycle, I can go at one o'clock. Like what's going to make that person do it then? Right, right. Exactly. That's what social prescribing is about. Like let's make it as easy as possible for people to get in the door. And let's also like, what's important too, to come back to the prescription pad, it's about starting with the question of what matters to you.

Like what was a sport you played as a kid and have it at a chance? So this is different than a blanket like, you know, okay, here's like all the exercise offerings. It's like, oh, okay, you tell me that you grew up in LA and you loved swimming. Like I'm going to, and you haven't had a chance to do that since. I'm going to find you a swim coach and a group. So you're already like intrinsically motivated because it's something fun and exciting to you. Totally, that makes sense. And I think the other thing, my first chapter on movement gets into this.

like what was so important for them so the first chapter talks about someone who is prescribed a cycling group for his type 2 diabetes and a woman who's prescribed a sea swimming course for her depression and you know it has all these stats that stats you know i'm sure about like how physical activity is just objectively good for us you know it improves our all kinds of health outcomes including depression right it increases our serotonin and dopamine all this

But what they said to me is that's all true. And it was important it was happening outside, so in nature. But the thing that really kept them coming back was the other people in the group.

the friendships that they made. Friendships that grew, you know, started in this group but then actually turned into real friendships where they would meet outside of the cycling course and the swimming group. So I think social prescriptions have just this trifecta of something that's personally motivating to you, people to hold you accountable to do it, and a sense of like fun and friendship kind of surrounding them.

By the way, that's why the majority of people I know who go to the gym keep going to the gym after they get used to it because you make friends at the gym. Yeah. You see those people all the time. And that was a problem during COVID when people were working out at their homes. Right. They missed that. They were isolated still. They might be working out and getting more fit or whatever else.

which was really helping a lot of other things, right? Like it does help your mood. It does help your overall health and whatever else. But the social element was still lost. So the gym to me is much more of a representation of a place where people, especially when you have no other outlets to go. Yeah.

Yeah. And socialize. That's why people actually like it. They're not going because they actually want to be on the treadmill for 45 minutes. Right. They're going because they're going to see Bob and Lisa, who they see every morning at nine o'clock. A hundred percent. And that, and then they can get drinks after. It's a massive social thing. And that is also why in the blue zones, you know, the blue zones, like they live the longest. Yeah. Why? Because they have a community. They can socialize. They have someone to eat together and drink together and walk together. Yeah.

That to me, and that's why no matter what other elements with social, whatever you were saying about social prescription and there's all these other things, at the end of the day, I still believe the strongest predictor for happiness, for health is socialization, is relationships. Oh, yeah. Bar none. Bar none. And there's...

You have so much data to support that. So much data. Dr. Robert Waldinger has the 80-year Harvard Development Study, which found exactly that. Yeah. And then, so when someone is prescribing this, who is the person that's keeping you accountable? Is the doctor keeping you accountable?

accountable? Like if your doctor is prescribing you, you know, the swim twice a week or the biking twice a week, does a doctor check in on you and say, did you go at two o'clock? I don't remember my doctor ever having the time or the interest to do anything. They never even checked up. I had to call them to get my blood tests. So who is keeping you accountable? It's a great question. And I think there's a couple answers. So first of all, it's worth saying that this started in the UK. Okay.

The healthcare system is totally different, nationalized system, and started because people were coming to the doctor for non-medical reasons. Loneliness, lifestyle-related diseases. So there was actually a huge, like, economic incentive to invest in social prescribing because it would reduce pressure on the healthcare system and give more time and resources to people with, like,

Legit, strictly medical issues. Totally. So with that investment, the UK also invested in a position called the link worker. And you're so right. Like it's hard to, it's almost hard to imagine this in the US because when we go to the doctor, you know, 10 minute appointments, boom, you're in, you're out. Like-

you're probably not going to be hearing from them for a while. But in the UK, By the way, also, I should say, people can't even find doctors anymore because most of these doctors are now concierge doctors. Totally. So if you're not paying for a doctor to come, you know, an extra fee, there's no doctor available. Right.

Which is a whole other problem. Different podcast. Yeah. Let's put a pin in that because you're so right. Like it is, we should talk about what it would really take to bring this here. But at its most basic level in the UK, there's this link worker who's literally like a link between the doctor's office and the community.

So they have time. Let's say you come in and I sense you're a bit lonely. Maybe you could use some lifestyle changes. I'm going to say, Jen, I'm going to set you up with the link worker. She has 40 minutes to get to know you. She has 40 minutes to ask these questions. What matters to you? What lit you up in childhood? These kinds of things. And she also knows what's going on in your life.

what's going on in the community. She knows which cycling groups are meeting. She knows which ones are good, which ones are kind of not so good. And she's going to be the one who really listens to you, finds you the spot, follows up, which we think, well, that's great. But like, how do you have the money to do this? Well, it turns out that in the UK, practices that have the link worker save money. Because guess what? People are coming to the doctors less or

Once they have a social prescription to get them on track, they're not coming to the doctor because they're lonely. They're not coming to the doctor because they have these weird, you know, unseemly non-medical symptoms and don't know who else to turn to. So it's really an investment, I think, the link worker in helping people get back on track and help them sort of, I like to say, create their own health.

before it becomes a doctor's problem. - Like preventative. - Exactly. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, I would be very curious if we would ever get that. So this is not something that's actually even prescribed technically in the US.

So it is coming to the US. It looks different, of course, because our healthcare system, we need a whole podcast to like really delve into that. But it is happening at the small scale level, mostly through just passionate doctors who opt in and like, you know, kind of run their own things. Like here in California, there's a lot of nature prescribing programs. There's a lot of parks prescribing programs. And these are just kind of started by doctors that have a passion for this.

But the insurance factor is really interesting. Just this year, New Jersey invested in a pilot for an arts prescription with Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield, an insurer who actually is covering the costs of that art class for people who are at risk of overspending on their insurance. And you think, like, why would they do that? Well, you might have seen, I know this is true for my parents, my elderly parents, some insurers are starting to cover the costs of gym memberships.

And a lot of this comes from the fact that somebody who is healthier on their own will be less costly to the insurer over time. So to your point, this is seen as a preventative health investment. And now that we're seeing more data that ART can have some of these similar preventative health benefits, there is a pilot where this is happening in the U.S. through ART's prescriptions. That is incredible. So what is the backed research on what ART can do for your health?

Totally. Well, yeah, art's an interesting one. Like we know about movement. Sure, that's good. That's pretty intuitive. Nature, we know, stress reducer. And we know this too, because like the book also starts from this point of the reason why we're talking about prescriptions for movement, nature, art, service and belonging is because like these are things that we evolved to do.

So we evolved as a human species to be able to tell and share stories with each other. It's why if like you look to the earliest civilizations, they all had, you know, cave paintings and storytelling circles and, you know, jewelry and costumes and all this stuff.

And again, we've been to a whole other podcast to like talk about what art is, but I think at a fundamental level, what it does is it helps us shift our perspective on our own suffering. So think about you're wearing an ACDC t-shirt, like you have a favorite band or a favorite song or a favorite film, or we're surrounded by beautiful artwork. And my daughter, a nine-year-old daughter. From your daughter. Yeah.

Right. Like, again, it's so intuitive for kids to turn to art as a way of sort of making sense of the world, coping with their emotions, maybe getting lost in a song or a film because of one, like the joy that it brings us because of what we associate it with. But also sometimes because of the way that particularly for the more storytelling based forms of art.

they can help us see our own struggles a little bit differently. So what do I mean by that? There's a discipline called bibliotherapy, and you have young kids, so this is maybe a relevant example. Bibliotherapy was developed to help kids who are dealing with anxiety, dealing with nighttime fears, to cope with that through storytelling.

Through a story in which they would identify maybe with a main character, like let's say, you know, the main character is afraid of being bullied on their first day of school. Maybe the reader, your daughter, is listening to that and thinking, okay, that sounds familiar. Let me keep going with this. And then by identifying with that main character, they start to sort of like see their own struggle. They start to sort of see their own source of suffering and think, well, if it was okay for this character, it's going to be okay for me.

So, yeah, I went to, I was in Israel a few months ago and to speak to a bunch of the survivors or people that were massacred.

mass, like the families of the people who were massacred in Israel. And we went to this art place, this place that was doing art. And the reason why we went there was because we were told and we were, we were explained that art was, is a really good mechanism for dealing with trauma. Yeah. And they were trying to figure out a way to kind of really integrate it into all these people's lives who were, you know, the families of, right. Or the people who were, who did survive the, you know, and, and,

I guess that was similar to what they were describing, but more so about the fact that you also can get lost in what you're doing. And I guess it's like a good distraction. Totally. That's totally right. Yeah. So that, you know, example was about very mild forms of anxiety, but art therapy has existed since the 1940s. In the aftermath of World War II, actually, it was really popularized for exactly this. People who've experienced something traumatic and

Art becomes sort of this nonverbal way to cope with it. And the book talks about, the art chapter talks about this woman, this refugee who had experienced trauma, abuse in her childhood. And I mean, you've had guests come on and talk about all that, that sort of emotional repression that happens. And talk therapy alone sometimes doesn't cut it.

Like sometimes your trauma is so deeply stored that a therapist asking you about it is not going to cut it. So what trauma can do, though, is unlock that a little bit and help you sort of... Or art. Yes. Sorry. What art can do is help you unlock that trauma and...

And find a way to like explore it without having to re-traumatize yourself. And I could totally see how for these families in Israel, this would be extremely powerful, not only because like historically we have done this for art, but especially if they are together doing this. You know, that's another component of these social prescriptions. It's people sort of processing together through these kinds of mediums we've always relied on.

Now, what is your background? Because you're not a therapist, right? So how did you come to even write this book?

Yeah, it's a good question because I thought I knew the answer. Like for a long time. So I'm a journalist, what we call solutions journalist. So what that means is like whenever we hear about a problem, a problem, a problem, a problem, and that's the only story we hear, solutions journalism says, okay, let's see what has worked to solve that problem. Let's look to the evidence. Let's look to what other cities or countries are doing. And, you know, let's tell those kinds of stories. Right.

So, 2020, 2021, you know, the problem was loneliness. And the problem was these rising rates of mental illness. And I became really curious, like, beyond just saying, you know, we need to expand therapy and we need to expand accesses.

access to medication, like what else is working at the systemic level to like address these problems? So that's how I came across social prescribing. I did a story about it in 2021. And I should also say that before I became a journalist, I was a sociology graduate student. I'd studied loneliness, been really curious about it. So I thought, okay, I'm going to write this book because I am like professionally curious about this.

But then the pandemic happened and I started realizing like I feel strands of loneliness sometimes. I feel strands of stress and depression and anxiety. And it's not like I feel like I have a clinical disorder, like I don't meet all the symptoms, but I also don't feel totally healthy sometimes.

So what exists for me? How can I cope with these feelings of stuckness and stress and anxiety and frustration that any of us could experience at any time? And I found that through this book. I didn't intend, there's a whole third section about me prescribing myself these things, which I did not plan to write or really didn't want to write. But

it just felt untrue not to write them because it was true. I'm kind of this skeptical, hard-nosed journalist, but here I was finding myself needing to prescribe myself a running group to get over my breakup or prescribing myself this slow-looking art experience to cope with some anxiety I have about my parents getting older. These things that just happen to us

We have the tools at our disposal and I wanted to try to practice what I preached with that. And was it helpful? Totally. What was the most helpful modality or prescription that you tried? Yeah. Well, so one that I think I use every day, which I'm sure you can relate to as someone who's written many books and has this great podcast and, you know, like professionally has a very busy life.

I'm starting to feel very overwhelmed by that in my own life, like the constant podcasts, emails, meetings, always being on, always writing something. How I cope with that is through nature prescriptions and specifically through, you're going to laugh, but bird watching. Something that I like, I used to hate birds. They kind of freaked me out. As a kid, I like really infamously hated birds. But after I learned about all the research behind birdwatching,

you know, immersion in nature. And I'm like very type A, like I can't just like sit around in nature. I need like a goal and a task. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

So I joined a birdwatching group and I love it. It helps me feel so much more calm, so much more restored. And I can really feel myself feeling the science behind why we need nature. A lot of it has to do with the way that it like resets and restores our attention and helps us become better at judging our stressors so that the result is that we go through the day more calm, more balanced, feeling like our to-do list is not

that unmanageable after all. Really? So how does it work? You go watch a bird or how does it work? Or like you get together with the group or you go to a, like how does it work? What happens? So that's exactly it. I go, I live in Brooklyn, New York where there's a great group that meets in the park every Saturday morning. It's also great like for all my fellow, you know, 20, 30 somethings. It's like a great place to meet people. Yeah.

At the bird watching group? At the bird watching group. Why? I can tell you. Aren't there a bunch of 80-year-olds? So that's what you'd think, right? Yeah. But there's kind of like this cultural movement to take back bird watching to make it like young and cool and sexy again. And yeah, literally you go Saturday mornings in Brooklyn, there's like 100 people coming to watch birds. It's kind of crazy. Are you serious? Yeah.

And they're all like in their 20s and 30s. They're all in their 20s, 30s, 40s. They have binoculars and like, you know, people chill at the park after they get coffee together. So that's like the group. But I also try to like go for a walk in that park and just like sit and really observe.

Whoa, wait, let me get back to the birdwatching. Okay. This is so fascinating. We've just solved online dating. Everyone just needs to go birdwatch. I was just going to say that. Like who needs online dating? Birdwatching is the new online dating. Right. It's kind of like how cauliflower became the new kale. This birdwatching is like literally the new dating app. Totally. It's

Totally. That and also like another prescription I try, which I actually read a bunch of articles this week about how these are actually also like low-key dating groups or running groups. Oh my God. So many running groups in my community where, yeah, it's all like 20, 30, 40 something fit people, you know, coming together, running, but then hanging out after. Like, I don't know.

I'm not saying that that's why I got into these things. But I am saying it's a nice perk. By the way, the writing group makes total sense to me. Yeah. Because I did a writing group. I like ran a writing group many, many, many years ago. And there was like,

40 people who are all like really hot, really fit, obviously like who are like their intention is to be active, who are high performers, who are successful, like who wanted to go and meet other like-minded people who also wanted to do that. So many relationships happened.

occurred and happened within that running group. Like to me, it's a no brainer, another no brainer. Totally. A hundred percent. Cause like what I'm learning about dating is that like a lot of it has to do with, you know, you enjoy the same things. You have a similar lifestyle. Like I never thought about that when I was younger, but yeah, like I'm a pretty physically active person. And if my partner's not meeting me, they're like,

That's going to affect me. 100%. Also, you put yourself where the game is, right? Why would you go to a bar if you're not someone who drinks and likes the nightclub life? Go somewhere where your lifestyle is. If you're an active person who likes to exercise and work out and take care of yourself and wake up early, let's just say, a running club to me is the perfect place

Totally. To meet like your significant other or friends. If you're like new in a city. Yeah. Right? My old au pair, I think she joined some walking club, not a running club. Can I tell you something? That girl was never around. I mean, the whole point of this au pair thing is like you have like they come to do your culture and you're partaking in the family. Never saw the girl because she made so many friends. God bless her.

good for her. She's 22 years old. This is like, why are people, again, not to like beat a dead horse, why are people so stuck on staying on technology? Like this is not even about your book, but you're a 30 year old girl, like staying on a tech, doing a dating app or going to a bar when the best things you can do are joining these clubs. A hundred percent. I agree. And I think like, I actually, yeah, yeah. Cause I think that,

we are coming to this moment where like everyone's kind of agreeing like, yeah, wait, dating apps suck. They're so tiresome. And you're so right. Like this is not a natural environment. Why don't you go to an environment you enjoy? Worst case scenario, if you don't meet the love of your life, like you enjoy the activity and you probably make some friends. You will make friends. And also I will tell you, because I'm old, you become, you will like the people that you have the most experience

in common with eventually, right? Yes. That most compatibility with. Yes. People have this notion like opposites attract. That is such bullshit. Okay. Maybe opposites attract in the first month or two because it's like different and cool. But eventually it becomes like that, that whole thing becomes very old, very fast. If you want to do one thing and the other person wants to do something else, uh,

Totally. Go where your natural instinct goes. 100%. And that's not just like, there is research in the book that talks about that. Like a feeling that you have things in common is so important to cultivating a close relationship. Like, I don't know if you've seen that thing, my friends and I, again, this hasn't worked for me romantically, but there's this thing called the 36 questions that lead to love.

Tell me about it. Well, it's just like these 36 questions that basically

basically like are asking you, you know, kind of cliche questions. Like if you were to have dinner with anyone, who would it be? Or if you could tell me about a perfect day, what would it be? Questions that kind of get you to realize or not realize, like, do I have things in common with this person? And it's based on this research by psychologist Arthur Aaron that says a feeling that you have things in common is so important to friendships and romantic relationships.

Again, this is like an obvious duh, but I guess sometimes we need like, sometimes common sense isn't so common. Right. And you need to be reminded. Right. You know? Totally. Can I ask you, how did you meet your husband or is there something that you two knew like? No, I can tell you. We met at, I actually, we met at...

at a dinner party. I was actually going with another guy who I broke up with the night before. And so I called my friend who was having a dinner party and said, well, I'm not bringing him. So there's an extra seat now at the table. You can go, you know, invite someone else. Her friend invited my husband.

I wasn't friends with that friend, though. I didn't know who she was. So she invited him because she had a crush on him. And he so happened to sit beside me and he had a crush on me. And then he, that's how I met him. Oh my gosh. Because he was like the empty seat to my ex, or to my boyfriend that I just broke up with. Okay, that's amazing. Is that funny? That's so hopeful. First of all, I'm like, okay, say yes to every dinner party. Exactly. But also like, I think that I hear so many people meeting through friends of friends because...

like underneath that, you all probably have something in common. Yeah, well, we met at a Passover Seder. That was actually the dinner party. It was like, it was a Passover Seder, which we have something in common, both Jewish. And we both obviously celebrate the high holidays. But I totally, I agree with you on that. I also find it,

like really, it's so interesting. Like I find that there has been, like lately I find, people have been coming up to me or telling me about like how apps are like having now, the pendulum has now swung the other way. And so like a lot of these companies are like,

reaching out about like how to do promotions or how to like do things because people are not as interested, let's say, in maintaining their memberships. People are like, what do you call it? They're canceling their memberships. Totally. Much quicker. Yeah. And that makes sense, man. I hope like if we have any people at Hinge or Tinder or Bumble who are listening to this, like I think it would be very wise for them if they were really curious about like retaining membership to start sponsoring some...

Running clubs and bird clubs are IRL meetups because I also think that it is so important and maybe we're getting down a rabbit hole. No, I like this way better, by the way. Continue. Like, I just think that I've never been on dating apps and people are always like, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You got to put yourself out there. But to me, it just feels like I know someone's like energy when I meet them and I'm

I think that, yeah, that's underrated too. And that's another one thing to kind of relate this back to the book is You don't have to. We promote the book enough. I'm just kidding. Yeah, maybe you can just give me some dating advice. But one thing that I think is nice about these social prescriptions too, which people said to me is like, I am meeting people that I probably otherwise wouldn't have met. And like if I had met

seen them on paper, like, you know, this person is a truck driver or this person is, you know, working in the volunteer sector. Like these are not people that I thought that I would have so much in common with. But what social prescriptions do, the beauty of them is that they are bonding you based on that shared what matters to you. And they're probably like increasing the pool of potential friends or romantic suitors more than you would if you were just like

getting someone's sort of on paper description. By the way, I cannot agree with you more. I'm not a big believer in apps. I don't care. I know maybe I sound archaic like I was born in the 30s. I think there's something to be said for human connection and

like what happens, like pheromones and chemistry. Like when I meet you in real time by accident or through a friend, as opposed to reading a very curated bio that you don't know a damn thing about that person. I'm five, six at athletic build. And I make over a hundred thousand or under a hundred thousand. And I do this and I do that. You know what happens on those? And there's tons of research that

only 4% of the people on those dating apps are getting, I think, what is it? Like four, no, 2% or 4% are getting 88% of the hits, of the swipes. That means the majority of people are sitting there not doing anything because their bios don't say something, they're not the right height, they're not making the right amount of money. When you're leaving so much on the table for what happens in real life connection. Yeah. Like probably the...

the love of your life is probably somewhere not in your mile radius, that you're not in your five mile radius. Yeah. And who is maybe not in the socioeconomic that they have in their bio for whatever reason. Yeah. Maybe they're not the right height because you're just reading a thing. Like you're leaving so much on the table. Right. Yeah.

And it's so ridiculous. It becomes like the whole idea is such a dichotomy. Here you are thinking that you're opening yourself up to everybody who's available or online, when really you're being very myopic and only choosing from such a sliver of the population based on what some yo-yo puts on his bio. Right.

A hundred percent. And like, oh, I think this needs to be your next book, by the way, because I think we're at like a moment for this. And, you know, to relate it to what I see happening in like healthcare more broadly, it's kind of the same thing. Like, just as we, you know, know that the

highly curated profile, dating profile of someone is not the whole of them. Like when someone comes into the doctor's office and the doctor is saying, tell me about your symptoms and you're kind of checking them off and that doctor is then saying, oh, okay, you meet the criteria for depression or anxiety. Like that is not the whole of the person either. And it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like just as on dating apps, you know, we kind of become the version of ourself that we're curating. I think sometimes in mental health care, when we just see our lives through our diagnoses,

we can then become that diagnosis. 100%. That's why rumination also is terrible. That's why when I saw that you wrote that word, that word is a major, not, I hate the word trigger because it's not, I don't get triggered, but it does trigger me a bit that people are so reliant on

on going to therapy as much as they do because it does create this rumination where even if you don't have an issue, you become that issue. Right. Because you say you have that issue over and over and over again. It's like what we say, what we, is very important to like who we become. A thousand percent. Right? A thousand percent. You know, and I'm thinking about a story from the book, this guy Jonas, diagnosed with panic disorder, agoraphobia, anxiety disorder, and like,

you know, he was going to therapy and he was taking medication and to be fair, like they did help him a little bit. But it got to a point where he was like,

I feel like everyone gets a little anxious to meet new people or to leave the house. And, you know, I think he was frustrated with the way that his therapists were saying, like, well, you just got to go out and meet people or you just got to go conquer that fear. Like, what social prescribing does is it says, instead of, like, go out and meet people or, you know, get out of the house, like...

Tell me about something you love to do. We will find that thing and it will get you out of the house and it will get you meeting new people. But instead of framing it around like your diagnosis and your treatment plan, like frame it around what matters to you and all these things will follow. And then sure enough, that's what happened for Jonas. Like here was this severely anxious guy, got panic attacks, like basically like lived in his basement and smoked weed for two years. He gets prescribed culture vitamins. Yes.

And he said it was the first time where like my days were different and I wasn't forced to think about my anxiety. I was just thinking about how much fun I was having and how cool it was and people I was meeting. And I'm like telling it very simplistically now, but yeah.

It's kind of true that like when you're in an environment that forces you to get out of your head, you do get out of your head. Exactly. So what does that mean then? So a culture, I have it written down actually, culture vitamins. What is that exactly? Yeah. So culture vitamin, this is a program in Denmark, again, sponsored by their government, kind of for similar reasons in the UK and targeted to people who are unemployed.

And you could imagine how in a place like Denmark where people not being employed who are not contributing to the social safety net, like again, this is an economic concern. So there's a real incentive to invest in a program that would get people back to work. So what it is, is it's a partnership with the Danish Mental Health Authority and these local cultural institutions, a museum, a symphony hall, an artsymposium.

an art gallery, and my favorite, a library, where people who are prescribed a spot in their culture vitamins go around to these institutions and, you know, have some cultural experience, whether it's one of my favorites is a shared reading session. Like the librarian is kind of picking a text and kind of like you did in school or book club, you're reading it all together and you're talking together about what it means.

Another is this archives museum where everyone had a chance to look up where their family was from and kind of get lost in the history of that. Another was this symphony hall where they were going to concerts and learning about the composition of music.

The common denominator is, again, getting you out of your head, getting you away from your anxiety, and finding something else that's stimulating that will, you know, help you, ultimately will help you think differently about your anxiety. Because that's the thing with it, right? Like, I mean, that was the story for Jonas. Once he got, made that first step and got out of the house and started going to these, he realized, like, that wasn't so bad. It never is as bad as we think it is in our head. Exactly. Ever. Ever.

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How about this? You said health. What are the health consequences of what you say are quote unquote bullshit jobs? What are bullshit jobs and what are the health consequences? Yeah. So, okay. Uh,

Things that we need more, many more podcasts for. But bullshit jobs is a term coined by the late anthropologist David Graeber, who basically said that over the last several decades, there's been a rise in bullshit jobs. Jobs that people don't really know, like people can't clearly explain what they do.

And, you know, nobody is quite sure why they exist, but they seem to keep growing. So things like a lot of office jobs, middle management. Like what? I thought you were going to say more like social creators, like content creators, Instagram influencers. Yeah. Aren't those bullshit jobs? Yeah.

Don't I have a bullshit job? I think we all have a bullshit job. That's why I was curious. Yeah, it's a good question. You know, he kind of wrote this before, I'd say, the rise of content creators. But the bottom line is, like, it's a job that has, like, really no purpose. A job that exists for the sake of being a job. Exactly. Again, isn't this what we're talking about? What is the purpose of an Instagram influencer? Isn't that a bullshit job? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, maybe. Like, it kind of becomes a slippery slope because I think artists are not bullshit jobs. Like, I think one way to tell is, did this job exist for, like, hundreds of thousands of years? And there have always been artists, right? Yes. I think, like, doctors is not, is a great job. Like, that isn't, they help people, lawyers, they have a purpose. But the way I look at a bullshit job is you have zero purpose beyond just, you know, existence.

Exactly. So what are the health consequences of these bullshit jobs? Right. Even though this anthropologist wrote this many years ago, I think he would rewrite what he thinks or what he coins bullshit jobs today. Yeah. Oh, totally. I will be real. Unfortunately, he passed away last year, but it would be really amazing to see that. So what is the health consequence? I mean, in some ways, again, it's like kind of intuitive, like

We evolved as humans to feel like our lives are meaningful. Like, I just brought this book on the plane. I actually gave it to my brother, Man's Search for Meaning. You know, you mentioned you spent some time in Israel. And this is, you know, like a very important book about a Holocaust survivor who talks about, like, what actually gave him the drive to keep going. And he talks about something called logotherapy, which is this, you know, phenomenon in which, like,

we can survive the most awful, traumatic, terribly painful experiences if we feel that there's some greater meaning to our lives. So this is like...

I mean, we can think about it from that way, like having a sense of meaning is really great for our health. But when we don't feel like our lives have meaning and when we're in a job where we spend much of our time that's reinforcing that what we really do doesn't matter, then, you know, we don't experience those health benefits. And I think we start to turn inward more. We start to ruminate more.

So you're talking more about purpose-driven. Exactly. So, yeah. So that's why you were saying more about these middle management office jobs back when the anthropologists were saying it. Because I'm thinking of the, you know, the show The Office, you know, when they're all in the paper-pushing business. Right. And they're pushing paper. Those would be considered...

bullshit jobs that there's no real meaning behind it totally yeah that makes sense yeah yeah and does something sound like it could be subjective like maybe yeah i feel like dwight truth he totally loves paper like to him that is not a job to him he is really he's got the most meaningful job right that's a hot and same same with michael his boss he feels that he's got a really big you

you know, he has a really big influence on what happens at the office. Okay, I have a question for you. What is this gift that you gave me that's in a medicine pill bottle? So what is this gift? So you can open it if you'd like. Yes, I would like to open this. As you can see, yeah, I think they're like real pill bottles. They are real pill bottles. And what's inside them are little people. And sometimes I have the ones that have like

little trees or art easels or whatever, but this was just the one I had handy. And it's a reminder that what matters to you can be medicine. And I thought about it for you when I was like, you know, reviewing your podcasts and going through your social media. I saw this like beautiful clip you posted. I think it's of your husband and your daughter and they're dancing at a wedding maybe? It was a wedding. Yeah. They're dancing at a wedding. Yeah. And

Something about that, first of all, just like really moved me, made me think of my dad, how much I love him, made me think of those pure moments. And I have one of these on my desk too, like a little social prescription. And I think that it's important to visualize the way that other people, the love we have for other people, the joy we see in other people, the joy we see from experiencing the, you

can get us out of our worst selves, can be medicinal, right? I would, I mean, if I were to ask you what matters to you, I would just take a gander that your family is something that really matters to you. And so whether those little people represent your family

or your friends or your podcast guests. Like I like to keep it on my desk to remind me that I can prescribe myself something that connects me to these people and what matters to me and it will help me feel better. I love that. Thank you so much. You're welcome. That's actually very meaningful and I really appreciate that, Julie. I love that. I'm going to keep this actually. I'm so glad. Thank you. That's really nice. I love that. Thank you.

I'm so glad. I have to have one fast question because I wrote it down.

What is forest bathing? Okay, forest bathing. So this is a wild story and it kind of relates to the bullshit jobs thing. So once upon a time, 1970s Japan, their economy started growing like crazy. Like they were the second largest GDP in the world and you know, after World War II, like they had all this new industry and economy and people were working harder and faster than ever. Like the

the average male worked, I think it was something like 80 hours a week. And on one hand, like we see the numbers of the economy and we think that's great. They're working so hard. They're producing so much. But doctors would tell a very different story. They would say that this is when we started to see the rise of heart attacks and cancer and mental illnesses and reports of stress. And

And so it was a really big problem, so bad that in fact the Japanese coined a new word to describe this like stress-related health epidemic. They called it karoshi, meaning death by overwork. Like people were literally working themselves to death. So the government was like, okay, we have to do something about this. People are working too hard. This is, I promise you, we're getting to forest bathing, but it has a cool backstory. Yeah.

People are working too hard. Like, we're trying to tell people to work less, to, you know, take off the weekends, to limit their working hours, but it's not working. So what did they do? Instead, they invested in this massive campaign to have people spend time in the forest.

go spend time in the forest, leave your office, you know, go spend time, go to the weekends, take the train up out into the forest. And at first, like, it was just kind of like we've tried everything else and we could imagine that, you know, people like forests. This is a big part of Japanese culture, but there was no science. But then in the 90s and especially in the 2000s, some scientists came along and they said, let's like actually measure what happens to people when they spend time in the forests.

When they forest bathe, which is engaging in the forest with all five senses, close on. Yeah.

And what they found was that people lowered their heart rates, lowered their blood pressures. They increased their production of something called natural killer cells, which are associated with a reduced risk of cancer. Yeah, they had, you know, fewer ulcers. I mean, all of these like physiological things that we associate with stress. There was less of that when people spent time in the forest.

Wow. So it has so much evidence behind it. Today, there's like, you know, dozens of forest therapy bases in Japan and increasingly in the U.S. Really? Like, I'm sure if you Google forest bathing Los Angeles, like, there are guides that would take you on a, you know, forest bathing experience here. Really? I want to write that down. Yeah, I think you'd dig it.

I mean. I really enjoyed it because you know what it is? I'm someone, and this is kind of like the bird watching too, if you tell me to like meditate or deeply breathe, I know that that's important. But I need like a thing. I need like an activity. Totally agree. That's going to like transitively do that. And for me, that was forest bathing.

I love that. Yeah. Because it's kind of like, it's kind of in the same ilk, I think, as nature. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. Well, I mean, this was great. I mean, so you're, I think we got a lot covered here. Julia, where do people find more information on this whole connection cure? So they can find more information about how to prescribe themselves these things at this website we're building, socialprescribing.co.

When is it going to be out? So it's out. It's very much, it means it needs a makeover. But the idea is for people like you to look up, where can I forest bathe? Where can I bird watch? Where can I join a running club? There's some of that and it's really based in New York right now, but we're trying to make it more national and eventually international. Is that yours or is that...

It's mine, but it's being sort of crowdsourced by other people and organizations in the movement. Yeah. And then me personally, I am at hotsthoughts on Instagram and X and maybe TikTok.

Wow. Are you still a journalist for The Solution Journalist? Are you still doing that? Yeah, so I still work for them. My work is really about helping other journalists these days. We're doing a big thing around youth mental health right now, trying to get more reporting on that. But I also am a freelance journalist and, yes, continue to do that.

Amazing. Well, it's been really nice having you on this podcast. Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. No, you're excellent. And this was very interesting and very much things that I interested in. And I think the listeners, you provide a lot of value, which I think is very important when people come on the show. And so I appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. Yeah, you are so fun, easy to talk to. And I was like, you know, reviewing a lot of your stuff. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like...

All of this supports social prescribing. It does. Separately, I'm serious. I think you should write that dating book. Believe me, I'll be honest with you. You're not the first person to tell me this. I'm very passionate, interested in this topic. I actually started a breast cancer charity called Babes for Boobs.

where I auction off the most eligible men in LA and all the money we raise, we give to breast cancer. Did that with my best friend who started like eight years ago. And the reason why I did it was I had a plethora of men that I know who are single and who are eligible. This is like, this is my wheelhouse. I would have been like, I would have done that stuff, like a matchmaker, a relationship person, if it wasn't for my passion for all this other stuff. Like,

Yeah. So I love it all. That's why. Love it. Well, first of all, I wish I were around for that. But second of all, like, I genuinely think that, yeah, I've listened to some of your podcasts about this and everything you said today. That could help so many women I know who are like, their default is like, just go on the apps. And there's no, like, there's some really corny, I don't know if we're still recording. Yeah, it's okay. It doesn't matter. We are. It doesn't matter. Like, really corny books about...

Love and finding your soulmate. And I feel like you would give such a good, like, no nonsense. Here's what you got to do. Well, listen, I'm all about the no nonsense. And I know exactly what they have to do. And that's, you know, we had this woman on the show. Her name is Alia Rosa. She was the KGB...

from Russia, do you remember? Special agent, and she was a sex spionage person. So her expertise was being a sex spionage, like how to get wheel in world secrets by the art of seduction. And I gave her a run for her money, I'll tell you. Oh my gosh. I'm telling you. I have to listen to that one. By the way, it's a two-parter because we went for like six hours. How long was that podcast? Roughly about four hours. No way. That's with editing. Or five hours.

That's wild. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. Wow. So people, if you haven't listened to that episode, I highly recommend you do. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I might do that, actually. That could be my next thing. You never know. There you go. Never know. Thank you, Julia. Thank you so much. I would read that book for sure. Thank you. Bye.