Episode 389: Dr. Aliza Pressman: 5 Principles of Parenting for Resilient, Self-Regulated, and Competent Children
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Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits & Hustle. Crush it!

On this podcast, we have someone I've been waiting to interview. Her name is Dr. Aliza Pressman. She has a book and a podcast. Her book is called? The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. I love it. And her podcast is one of my favorites for parenting, for child development, and that's called, Aliza? Raising Good Humans. Raising Good Humans. So, Aliza, before we start talking about parenting,

talking about all the things on this podcast we always start with a healthy shot for our brains and this one's called magic mind so neat it and you came in with a with

with an energy drink. I don't know what you were drinking. Garbage. Garbage, exactly. And I'm like, nope, we're going to do this. It's healthy. All the ingredients are all natural, organic. And what we do is we take a shot. It's great for your brain health. And since you're a doctor of the brain, it's a big shot. Here, we do a cheers. And then we just do it. One swig or two. I'm really impressed. That's the biggest shot I've ever had. That was good. It's not bad, right? No, I was expecting...

to kind of cringe. No, no, no, no. These are not cringe. I've had those ones that are very cringe-worthy. These are not them. Okay. They're very good. And they have a little bit of caffeine just for a little pick-me-up, but matcha. I love a little bit of caffeine. I know. You had like 100 grams on the one that you were walking in with. It's so trashy and terrible and not on brand for me. Not on brand.

But I just, you know, like when you can't get a coffee, it's terrible. No, I know. But listen, you know, whatever works in a pinch, sometimes you got to just do what you got to do. So anyway, like I said, I'm very happy to have you on this podcast. I'm so happy to be here. And we tried to do this before and it didn't, we had like a epic failure. It was all me. It was, that was, I don't even, I'm trying to just...

pretend it didn't happen so that it just goes away. Well, given the fact that you're so kind and sweet, I'm going to, I gave you a pass because you're so lovely. So I'm so happy to see that you are. I don't even know if you know what happened. No. I was recording, I was being interviewed and because it was like right before the book came out. So I had all of my notifications off and the interview went over by an hour. And so

Whose podcast was it? It was actually my podcast, but Jennifer Garner was interviewing me for like the book launch. And so she was reversing the interview and it just went on for so long because we were just...

yapping. Yeah, just yapping. That makes sense. And gabbing. I think gabbing is maybe more like friendlier. And then it ended and I had many texts like, where are you? And I was like, oh my God, because it went by so quickly. It was supposed to be 40 minutes and it went

But it was two hours. So I'm so sorry. No, no, no. By the way, I give you a pass because that has happened to me many times because sometimes you just can't control the conversation, how long it goes. And if you're in it, you don't know. I was so in it. I just, I genuinely couldn't have thought it.

could possibly have been two hours. Well, I forgive you. So thank you for forgiving me. No, you're... That was terrible. Oh, no, no, no. It happens. It happens. You're not busy, so it's fine. I know. I'm not busy at all. I just hang out all day, like working out, doing squats. That's what people think, my kids anyway, that I just work out and go to Costco all day. So, you know, listen, apparently you think that too. Yeah. So,

So I was like, she's fine. She's fine. She'll figure it out, which is a great segue into what I want to talk to you about, because why I was gushing over you is because I'm a really big fan of what you talk about, your teaching, your approach, your style in terms of like child development. And I'm a big proponent in trying to create or to build

and create resilience in my own children. And, you know, sometimes it's very, very tough, especially in the world we live in now, especially in Los Angeles. Yeah. It's very difficult. And so I look to people like you to really give me and glean really smart advice on how to build confidence

children, how to build competence in children. So could we, let's start from there because it's something that I think, you know, that's like the pink elephant for me in the room. So let's start with how do you build confidence in children in a time like now? Okay. So the most important thing to me, and I think this is just the research pans out this way, is that we, rather than focusing on building

building up our kids by telling them how wonderful they are or by smoothing the path. I like to think about it like controlling the weather, which is what we sort of want to do instead of teaching our kids how to dress for the weather and arming them with the capacity to look out the window and assess the weather and decide, you know what, it's way too big of a storm for me to go outside right now. I'm going to stay home. Or I can do this, but I need a raincoat and an umbrella and all that stuff. And so I

I think resilience building is about teaching our kids how to dress for that weather instead of trying to cover the sky with a canopy and fake the weather so that it's always beautiful, sunny skies or whatever your preference is. And so the key to that is thinking about our relationships with our kids because that's the core of resilience is having one, at least one, sometimes more in an ideal world, you'd have many safe spaces.

adults to turn to, but it just takes one person who really sees you for who you are and loves you for exactly who you are. And they don't fix your problems for you. They don't change the weather. They are there for you when the weather gets really bad and they make sure you don't go outside in a tornado, but they also teach you that you're capable of going outside in a range of rough weather. And we know from decades of research that

that kids who have those close connected relationships can, it's not that you wish toxic stress upon them. We don't want chronic, you know, spikes in cortisol levels where your brain is flooded and it never gets to have respite. But when you have that relationship, even in the worst circumstances, you can move the categorization of that stress into what's called tolerable stressors. And those have potential to build resilience. So that's why

The key is those relationships and the misunderstanding of those relationships. And I think where we're getting into trouble these days is that it means that if you're close and connected with your young person, that you're going to accommodate everything they want in order to be happy. And that actually undermines their resilience.

Wow. So that's a lot there. Sorry. It was long-winded. I love the analogy, though, of the weather, right? Because I think that's a really important, that's a really good one. So you're basically saying you want to, in a way, different analogy, but you want to teach your kid how to fish versus fish for them. And we fish for them a lot, but I think it's this well-meaning, I'm showing you I care. So...

That makes sense to me. The question is, how do you do that? Because we hear these platitudes. We hear how to do it, but then we don't have the actionable steps into doing it well. And so we think we might be doing it well, and we're not.

I think the first thing to do with all of the moments where you're wondering is first check in with yourself and make sure that you're distinguishing between what your child wants and what your child needs. And when you ask yourself that question, you can also ask yourself, what do I want versus what do I need right now? And if it's like, I want my child not to have a tantrum,

or not to be mad at me, it might interfere with giving them what they need. Does that make sense? Right. Because I think, right, it sounds to me that a lot of parents, or it seems like this whole notion of like, I want, I'm, me and my, me and my child are friends. Yeah, we're best friends. I hear that a lot. Yeah. I hear that a lot. Like, oh, my daughter's my best friend. And I always get like an icky feeling about that.

Yeah. Right? Like, I never grew up thinking that my mom was my best friend in that way. I did grow up thinking that, like, yeah, she loves me and she's there for me, like you were saying. But, like, I don't want to hang out with my mom. Like, I don't want to, like, drink with my mom. Right. You know what I mean? You're not partying with your mom. I'm not partying with my mom. You're not taking care of, like, if she's got... And I'm not telling my mom my sex life either. I'm sorry. That's just kind of taking it too far. Is that... I think...

Like, what happens on your end with your mom is less of an issue than what happens on your mom's end because that's the boundary setting. So, like, let's say you're...

daughter is like, I have a crush and I want to tell you every detail and I want to give you the whole thing. The issue would be if you were like, I love hearing all this, give me all the scoop and let me tell you, I just did that too. And I was, you know, like, it's like reciprocal. The issue isn't when they share with you. Some people are going to be more comfortable than others. Like I remember calling my mom when I lost my virginity. I was working on a kibbutz and

And I was in Israel and I was working on kibbutz. Other kibbutz? Yeah, that's right. In Connecticut? That was a gift giveaway. And I was working on this kibbutz and I lost my virginity. I was so excited and I called my mother and she's like, honey, you know, it was before cell phones. Yeah. So it was a big deal to call from Israel. And she's like, this feels like something you could share with your friends. She said that to you? She was like, I'm so happy. I want to make sure you're being safe. And then also, but the point was, is...

I was safe to tell her anything. And it was... The issue is really, like, is it reciprocal? Friendships are reciprocal. I take care of you. You take care of me. Your feelings matter to me. I'm going to make sure that you're okay. You're going to make sure I'm okay. We don't want our kids taking care of our feelings. That's the best friend. And it's inappropriate. If you want to... If they want to share everything with you, that's...

You know, it's fine. That's different. Different relationships have that. The key is just they need to feel safe sharing things with you, but also know that if they're sharing something with you, it doesn't mean that there aren't going to be consequences if they've broken a rule, for example. So like they need to know you're the person to come to when they break a rule, but that you'll also unfortunately have to give them consequences. They're just never going to be worse consequences than if, you know, they're putting themselves in danger. Yeah.

and they didn't share with you. So yeah, so basically it's on the parent to note the boundary of how to respond and react, right? So you're right. I do want my child to feel comfortable telling me whatever they want to tell me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go in there and tell her all the gory details of my life. That's the part that I feel like it's strange when I see that type of back and forth dynamic. And what happens when...

a parent and a child do have that dynamic when they are quote unquote best friends, where the parent shares everything

Too much, like too much information or TMI, as they call it, you know? Yeah. What does it do to a child's brain? It's sort of, first, we can get confused that a developing brain, because it's still, they're so mature, they, you know, they're, it seems like they can handle anything. They're still developing. So the way they process information and how they call on their life experiences is going to

inevitably be different than an adult brain. And so if you're confusing them, it can overwhelm their system in a way that's not resilience building. And so those kids actually have higher rates of anxiety, higher rates of depression. It sort of bends in the area of what's called permissive parenting. And permissive parenting doesn't feel safe. There's nobody who's steering the ship. There's nobody who's saying like,

I've got this. You know how everybody, there's always somebody in a group of people that you just know is good if something goes wrong. Like there's always that person. And your kids need to know you're that person in order to just stop being on high alert. If your child feels like you too might fall apart at any moment or you too might get, you know, need to be held because something's going on for you, then that's

They feel like they have to be hypervigilant at managing what the environment is throwing at them because there's no adult there to sort of be on it. And that just doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel safe.

And so what happens in that situation? How does that play itself out for the child? Let me give a caveat. I don't love when you hear from psychologists and they're like, if you do this, this will inevitably happen. Because everybody's individual. Some people are built like more robust dandelions. It's how they came out of the womb. And you could probably do whatever. Right. And just like love them, give them food, water and shelter, and they're going to be okay. But

But for a kid who is a more sensitive, what we call orchid kids, if you have a parent who is bringing their baggage to you, you're going to feel like you're responsible for them. And it can cause, it's just associated with these higher rates of what are called internalizing disorders, like anxiety, depression, et cetera. And it also shifts your relationships.

So what you know of love in your early years is arguably how you come to be to find love appealing in your later years. And so in those relationships, maybe there are boundary issues now because you never really learned what boundaries were. That makes sense, actually. Does it matter like in terms of age brackets of when...

like too much is too, like when a parent can maybe become more of a best friend figure, like for an example. Yeah, adults. Adults. At 21? Is it 18? Is it, what age is it? I would say as the brain is,

fully developing between 18 and 28. And also they're out of the house. They're allowed to vote. They're allowed to go to a bar and drink and all the things that sort of change what your limit setting needs to be, right? You're not raising them to learn how to be members of society anymore. They are. Then if you want to be best friends, go for it. Have fun and let them be

let you know when it's too much. Like they'll tell you if you're oversharing or maybe joining them too much with their friends. They'll say,

This is, it's too much for me. It's too much. Yeah. So you said something about boundaries already, right? Like boundaries, discipline, because I'm more, I think I'm more strict than let's say my husband would be, right? Like I like routine. I like schedules. I like regimen. And it's served me well. Yeah. Right? As a parent. Clearly. Clearly. I mean, for me, I mean, but yeah.

Because of my own experience, I think what a lot of parents or people do is because something worked for them or didn't work for them, they then they push that on their child. Right. How do we kind of stop ourselves and be self-aware not to do that? And when is it harmful and when is it helpful? And then I also want to talk again after that about discipline and like the right ways to discipline for a good outcome. Okay.

So the first part of that, figuring that out is such a key feature of what would be good enough parenting. I don't want to say anything better than good enough because it's like the one category of life where good enough is better than perfect. You know, you never want to get like a surgeon who's like, it was a good enough surgery. Yeah, yeah. But with parenting, it actually serves you. We build more robust kids when we're imperfect. Yeah.

I love that. So that's such a good thing to say. Yeah. I mean, not yet. It's a good thing to say. It's just good information. No, what I love is because you're talking to someone who my whole platform was built off of.

Not settling for good enough. Exactly. But no, and it makes sense. But in this way, it makes sense. It's in this very niche area of growing people. And what I think is interesting is the people listening here today are likely incredibly like aspiring or probably likely very excellent in their goals and their activities.

activities and their jobs and their hopes and their dreams. They want to strive for excellence. And excellence is fantastic. In parenting, excellent parenting is making mistakes and then making repairs. That's why one of the five principles in the book is repair, because similar to muscle building, and I'll get this wrong and then you can correct me, but it's something along the lines of this tiny ruptures,

build stronger muscles. But if you lifted way too much for what your body can handle, not that little bit that stretches you and gives you the tiny tears, but too much so you get injured, now that's not good. Right, right. But the tiny tears are necessary for...

for growing those muscles. And like, you know, when I told you I got the weighted vest and I was so proud of myself, but it's a five pound weighted vest. Five pounds, everybody. It's probably not going to do the thing. She can carry two slates over here, two protein drinks, one in each hand, and that will be her weighted vest. But anyway. So, but that's the kind of thing where

You know that in order to build and grow the closeness of the relationship, in order to build and grow robust humans, we have to have ruptures and repair. And they need to see that the adults in their lives, the important adults in their lives that they look up to, are able to make mistakes and come back from them. Otherwise, they will not be able to do that. And we know people who can't make mistakes and come back from them, they don't reach excellence.

Yeah, no, I agree. But what happens when you are like, you create structure, routines, does it make a kid rigid? Everybody is better off with structure and routine.

But some people are much more better off. And it's because they are, again, back to the orchid, like sensitive people. They thrive with predictability and routines. And it actually builds more flexibility for them because they're not overwhelmed in their brain with like, when am I going to get food? When am I going to get sleep? When am I going to get all these things? They know. It's part of their day. So they can use that brain space to learn.

to enjoy, to be creative. So it doesn't build rigidity. It actually opens up the capacity for other things to spend your time on. There are some people who don't necessarily need that because they're just

It's they seem to be doing okay without it. It doesn't stress them out not to know when mealtime is or whatever. But it doesn't mean that everybody in general, like if you had to pick, wouldn't do better, be better served by having sort of predictable routines. When it gets rigid is when you never make an exception to the point where they don't know that they can survive the exception. Mm-hmm.

So it's just a matter of saying, like, look, ideally, this is our routine. This is what we can expect. Sometimes we're going to go on vacation. Sometimes we're going to have Friday night movie night. Sometimes we're going to do. And seeing you bounce back from those exceptions is really important. OK, so what about the discipline part? Right. Like, is there a way? Can I open this? Of course you can. Is there a way? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

It's like a commercial, the way it is. I know. I'm just doing all the different things. I know. There's like a lot. Now, go ahead. Take your sip. It's good, right? It's good. It is. I know. It's amazing. I am doing a commercial. Yeah. And this is actually... That just tastes like chocolate milk. It is. By the way, this is not a paid ad. She just opened up a protein slate chocolate protein drink. I told her before we even started, they're delicious. And she just tried one. So they're delicious, right? Yes.

I know. I told you I wasn't just saying that to be like just to. Yeah, I don't like any of this stuff usually. Well, now you do. I'm going to give you a bunch. Now I've got two things. I know. OK. I've given her like a bag of longevity and wellness stuff that she's going to go home with.

You may need a garbage bag or a truck to leave. Do you have a truck? Do you have an SUV? No, I Ubered here. Oh, gosh. Okay. I'll double a bag and I'll give you one in each hand. That's what I'm going to have to do. That'll be more, it'll be heavier than the weighted vest. Exactly, but much heavier than the weighted vest. It'll actually give you resistance. Not like the five pound weighted vest.

you know, vest that you got. So let's get back to the discipline question, right? Because there's all different kinds of ways to discipline. And you keep on bringing up something that I think is so important, which is the orchid or the dandelion, right? I love that analogy, right? Because some kids are more of an orchid, some of a dandelion, knowing your kid, right? And then do you change your style based on who your kid is? Yeah.

That's why if you have more than one kid, you know, when they're little and they want the exact, like even cut piece of whatever they're getting and it's like everybody's looking at it. It's really not about that because some kids have more room in their stomach. And so they can have a bigger piece because there or some kids have an allergy to the food. And so they can't have the same piece. So it's really about what does each child need and

And obviously, you don't want to be so different with each kid that it just doesn't make sense. But in general, if you can say, I'm taking care of both of you and looking at what each of you needs and making sure that you have what you need, not necessarily what you want, but always what you need. And so...

For some kids, they respond really well to what's like classic behavior modification. You praise when the behavior is good and you ignore when the behavior is not what you want to see. And then periodically you give consequences. But sometimes because kids respond so well to that, it's not a good approach because you get kids who are kind of robotic, compliant, but don't know how to do things just because. For other kids, they...

mostly do things with internal drive. They're, you know, like the discipline can be

much more about, you know, I'm going to, of course, let you know what to do versus focusing on what not to do. But I will give you some specific what not to do, like the big stuff that really matters and empathizing with them. Like if you empathize with a child first by just naming, like I get that the fact that I take your phone out of the room at night is a bummer because a lot of your friends have access all night and they get to talk more. But my job is to

to think big picture, your sleep is more important to me.

And so I get that you're upset. It makes sense that you're upset. I'm not changing this rule. There are going to be some kids where every once in a while you need to also, or you, or rather you can also say, you know what, for certain things, let's do an external motivation reward situation. I'm going to positively reinforce what I want to see more of. And we can even do a rewards program because I know that your operating system isn't

so about compliance that I'm going to like feed a beast. Does that make sense? So it's like depends on the kid because there are also kids that need external motivation to do the things that just help them be good citizens and get through the day. And they're not going to do it otherwise until it becomes a habit. But if you have more than one kid and they have two different temperaments, right? And

And you are who you are. I mean, pink elephant in the room is we just because we're a parent, we're still a human being. Yeah. And we all have our own personalities. Right. Well, also, yeah, one of us is we might be an orchid or a dandelion or a tulip. That's what I was going to say. Like, what is a tulip? Which one is a tulip?

a little bit in between. I mean, routines are... What's an orchid? Tell everyone what each three are. So an orchid is also known as a highly sensitive child in the research, but an orchid kid needs a little bit more specific sunlight, water, and soil in order to thrive. And so an orchid kid actually

actually has, like they've done studies, they have different ear temperatures. Like how they respond to the environment is not imagined. Like when they say that the tag itches them, it's not because they're more like they're feeling the same thing as the kid who's not complaining, but they're more of a complainer. They feel it more. So when they walk into a room, those kids are kind of extraordinary because they're going to notice what everybody's feeling. They're going to notice all the details.

and they're going to notice, let's say the air condition is making extra noise, it's going to bother them potentially. They're going to hear it. Whereas a dandelion kid is probably just kind of not going to notice, not going to mind. And so there are benefits to both. But what I wouldn't want people to think is that the tag bothering someone or being extra cold or feeling the wind more sensitively is imagined. They actually have physiological differences.

Those kids do better with routines. Those kids do better with predictability. They just do because they can, they don't have to spend so much time worrying about all the things that matter for their bodies. They get hangry. They should not have to worry about when they're getting their food. You just know this. There are people like that. I am, you know, I've got one and sometimes everything like,

If sleep and food are not happening well, I'm not going to get behavior that I'm interested in seeing. Yeah, right. Exactly. And so part of discipline is knowing your kid and knowing you. Am I capable of being, you know, having the routine? Am I capable of being a little bit more predictable for this kid? And then also saying, I know that you wanted or expected this.

X. Instead, this is happening. I know that's going to be hard. I believe you can do it. So we don't have to tiptoe or walk on eggshells with these kids, but we do need to acknowledge this is a little harder for you than it is for your sibling. And I believe in you. And so what happens when your temperament, like as a parent, just fits better with one child than another? Yeah.

So there's research on this. It's called goodness of fit parenting. And it's the good fit of temperaments. And it's easier. It's easier to parent a kid who you understand without having to like

Work hard. Yeah. You know, you can end up closer with that child. The thing that I think is also very special is when you don't understand the other child's temperament, but you have this self-awareness to know that, then you take the time and interest and you can have the most incredible relationship. I will never forget, and it doesn't, it's not a flattering story, but I was sitting with my two daughters at dinner and my youngest at the time was seven. And

She was, she has like a really serious face. Some would call it, I don't know. Arresting. They would. Yeah. And my other daughter is sort of like a happy to be me doll. How old are your kids? I have a 17 year old and an almost 15, almost 18. I guess they're closer to that. But she was quite a bit younger. And for some reason, and I'm much more similar to, you know, like I'm a gold

golden retriever. You are? I am. I want to be like a cat so badly and I'm not. And my younger daughter is a cat. You know, she's like just like a little hard to read, a little mysterious, a little bit cooler. And I don't understand that at all, but I desperately want...

those kinds of people to like me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is not appealing because then I'm like, I'm so desperate. Which makes you like less appealing. Which makes me so unappealing. Yeah. And at the time I said to her, you don't look happy. What's going on? Why aren't you happy? And she said at the table, just because I'm not smiling doesn't mean I'm not happy, which is very obvious. But and I'm a developmental psychologist, but I was like, huh, I'm

That is a really good point. Right. So it was just that moment where I was like, I don't think I was thinking about what it's like to live in the body of a person who's just different from me. Yeah. Because when I'm happy, you know it. You know, it's interesting that you say that because also, like, with that being said, there are also things when you're too similar, like...

Me and my little daughter have a lot of similar personality traits. So then it becomes, it could be combative, right? Versus when you have the opposite, right? Like, how do we manage the different temperaments so we don't have these issues, right? Because like I said, we're all human beings, right? And like in life, forget about being just a parent to a child. In like regular life, right? There are people that you're going to click with more than others, right?

And then when they're your child, I would imagine, right? Like, yeah, exactly. She's pointing because her and I clicked right away is...

What happens when you and your child are just people who just don't personality-wise, temperament-wise click? It's very difficult. It's very difficult. And it's also the, it's not something people talk about openly a lot because there's so much shame because you're like, I like one of my kids as a hang more than another kid. Like that's hard. If you're just like, our personalities don't click. By the way, that's why I'm asking you this question because I don't hear anybody talking about things that are

Yeah.

When they're saying, well, do you have a favorite? Like, and we're saying, I don't have a favorite. But inside, yeah, we do. You just might not have the same favorite every day. Exactly. Exactly. So please, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just want to be clear why I think it's important to ask these questions.

I think it's hard and the onus is on the adult. And it's really hard not to want to change your child to accommodate your personality. It's really hard to look at a kid and not want to help them have a personality that you think will be easier to

Right. If we can find... I mean, nobody is more motivated than a parent to really know someone. Like in life, we just don't have to get to know people. If we don't click with them, we could just be like, they're not my people. Right. Exactly. But if you have a child who's not your people, you need to figure out a way to have them become one of your people. It doesn't mean that you're going to change yourself, but it's about opening yourself up, being more curious. Because...

everybody is fascinating when you really allow yourself to be curious. And once you start to think like, huh, they're wearing completely different glasses than I am. It's the world looks completely different. It feels completely different. Let me try to imagine and you get better at it. But I think it's the hard news is

It's not as good. It's just harder and it's not as good. It's not as easy. But the payoff is amazing. When you can find a way in, it feels so good because you are showing them that they are knowable, even when it seems like it just doesn't make sense.

Is there any research or data, I guess, to talk about how moms and sons relationships versus dads and daughters relationships? Because I feel like moms tend to favor the boy. Dads tend to favor the daughter. We talk about this in real life. And I just don't know if that's actually is there any real science data on why that is? So there there isn't.

super scientific research on this. There's more like psychological... I love both my kids equal. Psychological theories. You do love them equally. You just might want to hang out with one of them more than the other sometimes. It's just easier or... Yeah, some are easy. Or it's just like the dynamics, right? Like that's why. Is there other... Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, I think...

First, I think mothers and sons and fathers and daughters, there's a separate issue at play which has nothing to do with temperament. And it's like, theoretically, a mother is going to take care of her son and not know that he can take care of himself in the way that she knows her daughter can. Because we...

identify with our daughters. And we're like, I'm certain that you can deal with this because I could deal with this. And our expectation of boys is very low. It's very low. And...

And so we're like, you probably can't make that. I will make that for you, you know, and I will take care of you and you will love me the most. I will be the woman you love the most. And it's so funny. It is non-scientific what I'm saying. I think it's more theoretical, like just making observations and seeing that it's

Yeah.

And so you're going to be a little bit more incentivized to kind of nurture that. Your daughter is forever. Like in some ways it's sort of sad because I think with sons, they often then find their spouse and, you know. Move on. There's a little bit more. It's not that they don't love their mothers, but it's just women sometimes sort of.

Yes. I'm dreading that day, by the way. But yes. I think the key there when it's been most successful is when the mother really, instead of looking at the partner as the enemy, is like, I'm going to know you and be friends with you and be fun and awesome sometimes.

so that you want to be around me. Right. So that I can be around my kids. So that I can be around. Yeah. And very Machiavellian. Yeah. Actually. Right. But I think in the process, you can fall in love because it goes back to the idea of like when somebody is

different from you and when you really don't understand them, if you just, instead of doing what we normally do, which is to say, not my people, you decide to be super curious, I think inevitably people fall for humans when they have to know them. Right. I also think that you just said something, being curious. I think when anybody, I think curiosity is a massive gateway for communication, for love, for happiness, because

That's how you learn anything. And I think anything you know better, right, you end up liking more. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that would make actual, that makes sense to me. Oh, and the daughter and father thing that I was going to say, there is some research in these small areas, like, for example, fathers who do

homework with their middle school daughters, those daughters tend to do better in school. It's like tiny little interesting pieces of research that would lead you to think that that relationship is different, substantively different, but we don't really know why. Like the research doesn't really explain why. You can kind of think about why that might be the case. But I also think the unfamiliarity of the father and daughter, like it's

It's the same thing. You're the father is like, I know my son can handle this. Right. In this way, or this is what I know of male relationships. But my daughter, you know, breaks your heart. Now, I have two daughters and I have a stepdaughter and a stepson to be. But I will say, like, if he wells up with tears, that would...

wreck me in a different kind of way than if I see my daughters tearing up because I understand what is going on for them in a different kind of way.

You know what? It's interesting. Also, in general, though, right? Like, you know, there are, like we were saying earlier, temperaments. Like, it may be not necessarily all the time father to daughter. Exactly. Or mom to son. It's the fit. It's the fit, right? And what happens if one kid gravitate to one parent and not to the other parent all the time? Because that can cause a really terrible dynamic, even between the parents. Yeah.

Yeah, it happens a lot. Like in the early years, if there's a preferred parent, that preferred parent is exhausted, but also the one who isn't is feeling really insecure and

And then it sort of becomes a cycle because now no mommy do it or no daddy do it turns into fine. You just are always going to do it. And then I'm going to you're going to have one parent that resents because they're doing more work and one parent that resents because they're not favored. Right. So the most important thing is to know that that is very normal and like don't take it personally. But when you want to know a kid, you have to.

get in there through what they are interested in. So for example, if your child is obsessed with Harry Potter and you have no interest in Harry Potter and that other parent is willing to deep dive into Harry Potter, of course they're going to be more connected. You have to make a decision. Do I have the bandwidth to just find my way into Harry Potter? Right.

And then it's so much easier. It's game on then. That's 100% true. I've noticed that myself. Like, you know, you have to meet the kid at their level, not the other way around. And, you know, I guess living in Los Angeles, I'm so jaded by how dynamics are here and how I've actually seen just, you know,

you know, going back to the beginning of this podcast, just the fragile nature of children, the anti, I mean, we talked about this before, the coddle culture that happens, you know, the inability to, I feel, allow kids to figure things out on their own, to be competent. I saw a stat recently

recently about how 20% of children going into their first job asked to take a parent with them to the interview. 20%. My jaw's dropping. Yeah. I've never seen that.

I'm going to send it to you. And to me, that's just indicative of where we are in the world. And so I really want to ask you a bunch of these questions because I think we're going to go back to this idea because I think that people are losing the ability to have coping skills and figure things out like when they did when I was a kid, like much less. Yeah. Do you think that you should allow your child to quit?

Let's say they are on a basketball team. What is your take on quitting? Quitting is complicated because persistence is very important and commitment is very important. So I would say whenever your kids start something, you want to decide at the beginning how much are we committing to before we're going to quit or push through and say, like,

this could get uncomfortable. You might not like this. How long? Like if you have to pay for it, I think the answer is until that time is up. If you don't have to pay for it, then you might pick, you know, a time that wouldn't be disruptive to the team. Angela Duckworth says never quit on a bad day. So you don't want if your child is coming home crying and saying, I hate this and the team sucks and I lost and whatever, not a time to quit. You

You quit when things are going okay, but you're not getting out of it what you had hoped, and it's not a good use of your time. And every parent is going to decide in a different way what that is. For me, it's, you know, you don't quit in the middle. You just don't quit in the middle. I'm not saying that they have to stay playing basketball for the rest of their childhood, but you finish the season. And I was actually at a volleyball tournament one

when my daughter played volleyball, she quit at the end of the season after a couple of years. And she was a little worried about quitting because I was so like, you can't just quit if you commit to it. But at that point, I'm like, I think, I think this ship is, we've gotten sailed. Yeah. Yeah. But there was a tournament where a couple of the players weren't getting played and the parents were frustrated. It was a travel team and they weren't getting enough time. And so they

let their kids quit mid-tournament. And I was just like, and my daughter was also not getting much time on the court. And I was like, I don't think she would consider asking me about leaving, but I also think she saw my face when I watched that occur. And I know those parents were doing it because in their view, they're

child was wasting their time and not feeling respected and all of the things. But this is not a message for our kids. It's just not a great message for our kids because then, of course, the next day, two of the teammates got injuries and there was nobody to tap in. So the whole team ended up being compromised. So that's why I think quitting, it's not necessarily about, you know, pushing through discomfort, although that's super important. But it's also about you're not the only person in the world.

So there are a lot of other people that you have to take into account when you're on a team. That's why I like team sports. Yeah. Because I think it teaches kids a lot. I've never played them, but they're really good. I know. I was going to say, I'm not just saying, I've never really played them well either, to be honest. But what I've noticed a lot is what it teaches you just in, again, foundational life skills. Yes. Right? And it doesn't if you're allowed to just quit every time you didn't purposefully.

you uniquely didn't have a good game or a good time. Exactly. And so that's why, and I think also in general, it just, it teaches you how to play nicely with others, right?

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Go to timeline.com slash Cohen to try it out now. That's timeline, T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E dot com slash Cohen. What about competence? I'm a big believer in competence. Me too. Yes. And I believe that actually, and I believe I know you do too, that competence breeds confidence. Yes.

But yet, how do you teach a child to be competent besides just not letting them, not doing everything for them? Can you give us, again, like actionable things that we can do to show and teach children the importance of self-efficacy and competence? I think there are two directions. One is chores, like simple skills that you learn to contribute to the household.

They're not like token chores, but it's like, if you don't do this, it's going to have an impact on the house.

So chores are really important and you get better at things. And so if you fix your kids' chores, they don't get better at them. So for example, if they have to make their bed and then you remake their bed, they're not going to get really good at making their bed. And it seems very silly and minor, but it feels really good to get good at anything, including making your bed really well. So that's one thing. And it's not about the skills that you love. It's about

just like the skills that contribute and make you a meaningful, your skills are a meaningful contribution to the household. And separately, find something that you like. It doesn't need to be, it could be bead making. It doesn't need to be basketball and it doesn't need to be violin. It doesn't need to be like useful in our pursuit for excellence and college and all of that. It could be whatever your child is drawn to, starting at a young age and then

building up as they get older and get them the materials and give them the time to just...

do it, just work on something so that they feel what it's like to get good at something, to have a skill. And unfortunately, I think we spend a lot of time helping them develop useful skills instead of realizing how useful the process of learning how to get good at anything is. So we're like, don't waste your time bead making. You should be doing X. But I want them to learn what it feels like to have a process of getting good at anything. I don't

I don't care what it is. That's a really great

Great piece of advice. Because I know it's true, right? Because it's like you think anything's frivolous. It looks frivolous to be made, right? But them learning how to get good at something, no matter what it is, breeds that confidence that they can like do something. Yeah. And I think we forget. And so we're like, don't waste your time on this. This is going to be useful. But what's useful is almost always process. Always process. Yeah.

How, you know, you're very good at these analogies. I did hear you say analogy recently. It was about the flight attendants. Oh, yeah. You know, because you don't like to fly. But I paused it and I listened to it a couple of times and I wrote it down because what a great analogy. Can you talk about it? Because it was around the idea that what we tend to do is we

we gab a lot. We talk in these voluminous ways to our children. And yet, like, you say that fewer words are better because they can't process it. And they are learning so much more from looking and watching versus the words. And you use this amazing analogy about the flight attendant. So I'm going to give it to you. Can you talk about that whole thing? Okay. So, and I say this as a person who uses a lot of words. Yes, but still. But with...

Kids, yeah, they're not listening to all these words. It's hard to listen to words, words, words, words, words. Even for adults, by the way. And even, yes. So, I mean, think about a reel should be as few seconds as possible for people to watch it. I can't, I don't, I'm not good at that. Like, I use all the time possible to try to squeeze in what I want to say. But it's not as appealing. Nope. So fewer words.

Kids are watching. They learn so much from us. And so when I, what I said was when I fly.

Because no matter what the statistics are, and I know I'm a developmental psychologist and I'm not proud of this, but I hate flying and I do it all the time. It makes me miserable. And I have to learn tools for how to get through that flight. And I always look at the flight attendants. That is how I get through it. And I don't talk to them. I don't ask them what's going on. I'm not like,

Tell me what's going on with this turbulence. I simply look at them. And if they're going about business as usual through the turbulence or they're chatting buckled up but just like clearly unfazed, I don't worry. And that is what I need. And it is no words. It is through their body language and through their –

sort of nonverbal communication with me that I make a decision about how I'm supposed to feel in that moment. And it's really, and I know supposed to feel is a funky thing to say because there's no one right way to feel, but I know whether or not to be worried. Yeah. And so kids pick up on it, right? So like. So quickly, so quickly that we have to pay attention to the

you know, the energy that we put out. And our body language. So body language is more important than the words even. You know, if you think about, because our nervous systems are very contagious. And this is not woo-woo. This is the science. It's just simply physics, really. But

Okay. So when you walk into a room and people have been arguing, but you didn't hear them, but you just, they get quiet and now they're back to polite conversation. You are so aware that something's going on and they did not tell you and nobody said anything, but you just feel it. So our nervous systems are contagious. We're watching body language. We're

It's important if you want your kids, if you know they're catching your nervous system, what nervous system do you want them to catch? Yeah.

I love that. What's the best parenting advice that you have heard before? And the worst parenting advice that you've seen or heard? I don't want to give my own advice because that's lame. I want to think of like something... You can give your best advice. Tell me the number one thing that people ask you about the most. I think that the balance between... You talked about it earlier. I don't even know if we talked about it here, but you know...

How are we raising kids who are like, how do we discipline our kids essentially while still honoring their feelings and having close attachment relationships? And so for that, I'm always it's one sentence. Like I have a whole book. I have a podcast. I do the things. But if you can constantly remember that all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. Yeah.

You can kind of figure out how to navigate any challenge because no matter what the challenge is, you just ask yourself, what were the feelings? Did I welcome them? Was I like, you're allowed to have this? And then did I set the limit for the behavior regardless of the feelings? And if you can do that in absolutely any situation, you're covered. You really are. And then what's the worst?

I think the worst is just all feelings are welcome. Yeah, all feelings are welcome. But that's what we're living in right now. This all about talking it out, your feelings, talk about your feelings, talk about your feelings. Now, I'm in the mindset that

too much talking about your feelings and ruminating about all your problems cause you to have more problems. And that constant self-focus on you makes you, in my opinion, very self-absorbed and narcissistic. If you're sitting there all day talking about

How you feel, why you feel this way. This is what I am. There's no fluidity. There's no movement, right? How did we get here? How did we get to a place where everything now is not like, oh, I'm nervous about a test. It's like, I have an anxiety disorder. Oh, yeah. Right? Or I'm sad about a breakup or I'm clinically depressed. Like the pendulum has swung so insanely fast.

drastically much. How did this happen? And how do we get back to a balanced place? I mean, I think it was like a right reaction to, because I said so, parenting that was super authoritarian and like children should be seen and not heard. And there was like not a fluency or vocabulary for feelings. So people didn't know what to do and their bodies felt a certain way.

And then we thought in the 80s, I think it was the 80s, or at least because I was an 80s kid, that if we really told our kids how awesome they were and we gave them a trophy evenly, that we would make up for this 1950s thing. And then that created...

a very big problem where we got adults that were, maybe it was the 90s. I don't know. By the way, it wasn't the 80s because it was later. You're right. Yeah. Because the participation trophy. That was the 90s. You're right. Yeah. Or even early 2000s. Yeah. Because in the 80s where I was, 80s and 90s for me. Yeah.

like, I didn't get to participate. You're right. You're right. In fact, they're like, get out of here. You're bad at this. I think I had an honorable mention for swim meet once and that was the best I did. Oh, I just failed my swim meet. And then I also didn't make it on the dance team I wanted. And they said, you're not good enough. See ya. There was no participation trophy. And it served me well in life, actually. No, I, and I agree. And I think, but I think we went from the sort of

ignore to co-ruminating together for as long as our kids want to talk about any problem, which actually grows the problem. So I think the balance is like, I'm here. Like, of course you can come to me, but let's set aside 20 minutes a week to talk about these worries. And every other day that those worries are coming to you, just let

Put them aside and know we'll have our 20-minute conversation about it on Friday. But what I'm saying is...

parents are the culprit, not the kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, because we're receiving it and we're confusing it for connection. Well, what I think what's happening, our parents are going on social media and mental health has become like such a such a hashtag thing. I know. And now they're like, oh, they're all you can't even get an appointment with a therapist. And the prices are so ridiculous now, especially in like big, big cities, L.A., New York, because people are going there by it.

By the droves. I used to go to the roller rink. I used to go to the mall. Now kids are going to therapy. That's what they do. That's like what's fun. I think that there's a little bit of bonding over. I think there are two things. I think parents are confusing connection with co-ruminating.

And just sitting there and like, yes, I will just, we, it means we're close because you spend an hour and a half a day crying to me or complaining to me or connecting through pain. And we also don't want to mess them up. We're so worried about messing our kids up. We're so scared about messing them up. That we're actually messing our kids up more. And yeah.

We are very uncomfortable seeing emotions. So if our kids are upset with us or with anyone else, we want to fix that immediately. I don't know what happened, but I know that one of the worst things for our kids is for them to be afraid of their feelings, like as if it is pathology. You should be upset you broke up with your boyfriend. It's upsetting. That is a totally appropriate thing.

feeling to have, and then we move on. And it is appropriate to be nervous about a test. That's not an anxiety disorder. There are anxiety disorders. There is clinical depression. Those things do need to be treated. So I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's important to have mental health professionals for certain kids and adults. But most of the time, it's not...

psychopathology. It's just being a person. So when, as a parent, are you able to decipher between is this just acute or chronic?

in terms of the mental health issue? Is it just that they broke up? Is it just this, you know, this one phase of life and I should leave it alone? Or do I take them to a therapist and see if they have these things? Because a lot of times, if you do just, and again, I'm no therapist, my mom is, but if you just look away, they'll heal thyself, you know, they'll figure shit out. But if you jump in and just automatically take them, that becomes a rabbit hole, right?

Well, I think the message there, if you had a kid come home from a breakup devastated, again, that is an appropriate feeling. We all were devastated, right? That's acute to me. Yes, it's a moment in time. Now, if you then say, do you want to go see a therapist over this?

There's a message in that that there's something wrong with being devastated over a breakup. Be devastated. You're a teenager. This was your first love or your second love or your 15th. And it's devastating. But it's not psychopathology. So we don't have to worry about it then. If, however, you see that because of whatever set them off, because in many cases they've never experienced disappointment, because we could you can control as parents that

to a certain extent, the disappointments if you call the teacher and say, give them the part, or do me a favor, can you change the grade? Or can you call the friend, can you invite them to the birthday party? They're feeling really left out. We can kind of clear the path, but then when we do that, then the breakup happens and they've never felt that feeling. They've never felt rejected before. It's despondence that doesn't go away because they didn't know that they could feel this way and survive it. Right. So if

if it's prolonged and they're not realizing it's survivable and they're not taking an interest in other things after a couple of weeks and they're not back to themselves, then I might start to worry about it, but not because of the breakup. I might say, oh, they don't know that they can survive feelings. Something's amiss here. Let's figure this out. But it doesn't mean they need a therapist. It means that it's a new kind of conversation to have, which is, you know what? It's

I haven't given you the opportunity to feel these feelings because I've been, I'm not blaming parents right now, but I'm going to give an example that would be on us that is in our control because the stuff that's not in our control, you just can't do anything about. Right. But maybe you say, I've wanted things to be easy for you. And in doing so, you haven't had these feelings before. But these are feelings that are going to happen over and over and over. And I'm here for you. And I also want you to know that this is,

This is survivable. And I believe that you can survive this feeling. If we panic and treat it like it is not surmountable, I think that sends that message. Now, if

If you have a history of clinical depression in your family or a history of anxiety disorders or you have, you know, you're seeing red flags that are pervasive, that are out of scope with what's happening. There wasn't a breakup. They're just despondent and you can't figure out why. Then, of course, you need to seek outside support. But what if the...

the reaction is so beyond what the actual incident is. If there was an incident, so I think there are two different things because I think one is there was a breakup and we don't as adults recognize. Let's forget about the breakup, just in general. In general. Yeah. If it is persistently out of scope.

And it's not... Like how long should one... You know, that's what I'm saying. It's hard to know, right? Yeah. Because if it's... You're... Like if I'm a dandelion, let's say, and you're an orchid. Right. Maybe my response, still in the normal range, is different than your response. Yes. For sure. Right? I think then I would say there's many steps before you would think it's psychopathology. Right. That's what I want to ask you. So you can say...

always say to your kids, ask them questions like, I'm worried about you, not because I don't think you can get through this and not because I don't know that this is a very normal part of development, but because I'm not sure you do and I want to just check in. So you can ask them. You can ask your kids, should I be worried about you? Or is this just really hard?

How can I be helpful? Those are all fine questions. I think we underestimate that we could just say what we are wondering about. But if you do it the way the flight attendant does it, knowing there's turbulence in adolescence, for example, and so you're not panicked, you're just straightforward, like, I'm not...

worried that you can't do this, but I just want to check in with you is very different than I'm worried about you, you know? Yeah. But this is also about the building of coping skills, right? So teaching a child how to have the coping skills to deal with a breakup, to deal with any type of adverse situation. Not everything's going to go hunky-dory in life. I hope it doesn't. And I hope it doesn't early enough. Yeah.

that we get these skills. You don't want college to be the first time that you're in a situation that's really uncomfortable. Exactly. Then how else can we build coping skills and coping mechanisms or help our children develop coping mechanisms so they could cope in life later on?

Okay, so there are five skills that are highly linked with resilience that are outside of, that are actually kind of in the hands of kids that we can help them build. Gratitude, autonomy, motivation, empathy, and self-regulation. And if you grow those skills with your kids and yourself, you're doing the best you can with what they've got.

So some kids lean, like they bend more empathetic. They bend more self-regulated. They bend more gratitude, grateful. I knew what you meant. Thank you. And so it's a little bit easier. And some adults do. Others have to exercise more. It's like some people are just more nervous

naturally fit than others and exercise comes more easily to them. So for the ones who are more potatoey, you have to like help them learn the skill of like getting up and moving every day. That's a good one. I like that. How do you do it though? Okay. So gratitude, like we can go through each one, although we probably don't have time. I know. Just give me two sentences on each if you can. Okay. Abbreviate it because this is important. I like this. Okay. Gratitude.

Make a habit of hunting for something good every day, verbally, out loud, for yourself, and insist on that from your kids. They don't need to be grateful for what you want them to be grateful for, but hunt for what they feel grateful for, like the exercise of rosebud and thorn every day. You know, like, what was your rose? What was your bud? What was your thorn? That falls under grateful? That falls under grateful because you're getting into habits of noticing the good, not just the bad.

But you're not ignoring the bad because that's pretend. You don't want like toxic positivity nonsense. You're just saying, I acknowledge it, but I'm not going to forget that I can find something good every day. And it can be tiny and we cannot decide what it is because you should be grateful does not work.

autonomy. Let kids do for themselves what they can already do. Guide and encourage them to do things they can't yet do and teach and model for them what they can almost do. So you really need to assess, are you doing things that they can do? And if you are, just say, I know you've got this.

And then if they can almost do it, but they need a little bit of help, you're going to scaffold them. You're going to just do enough that they can, you know, it's like when you think about a baby when you put the sweater over their head, but then they can get their arms in. But you don't just say, I'll just put your arms in once they're capable. And then you teach and model the way, like when you think about, I work in a hospital, at the hospital you have teach, model, do. So the

the student, the residents first watch you're teaching them. They're not touching anything, not doing anything. And then they are going to assist you. And then after those things have happened, they're going to do it themselves. Love it. Autonomy motivation. That's like way too long. Yeah.

Uh-oh. As you know. I know. But motivation, two things you can do quickly for motivation. One is help your kids find something they care about enough to motivate. Because again, you want to exercise the motivation muscle before you try to get them to motivate to do something they don't care about. They have to care. I would say that's the first and most important thing. And then you set a plan up and you discuss what the barriers might be to that plan and the plan for motivation.

facing those barriers. So you like know what's going to come between you and your goals and you make a decision of how you're going to act in advance. And then empathy.

Everybody can learn to be empathetic. We're wired to be empathetic. But the best way to learn empathy is to have someone who empathizes with you. And you want to empathize, but like with enough distance that you don't get in the soup with them. Like this is a very mean example to my beautiful, wonderful mom. But when I told her that my boyfriend and I broke up in high school, she cried. And I was like...

okay, that's too much empathy because now I have to worry about your, you know? Yes. Yes. But I needed her to empathize. Like I wanted to know that she could kind of understand where I was coming from and, and name that she gets it. Cause, and, and empathizing with other people, just being an empathetic person is inevitably going to help raise more empathetic people. And that is linked with resilience. But again, I,

similar to all this other stuff we're talking about, you don't want to go so far that all you do is sort of co-ruminate in this sea of, you know, like emotions. It's fine to hear you say that because you are a therapist and I love when that's... Well, I'm not a therapist though. I'm a developmental psychologist, which I know is so not... That's true. That's true. It's like a slightly different thing where I'm not looking for psychopathology. Yeah. That's so true. I love that you said that. You're right. Okay. Thank you. Go ahead. And then...

Self-regulation. You can practice self-regulation without ever realizing you're doing that because you can play chess, you can do yoga, you can play a sport, you can play Simon Says, you can do anything that's musical chairs, meditation, anything that makes you practice on a daily basis.

doing something that is the opposite of what your body naturally is inclined to do. So musical chairs, which is a silly example, exercises that muscle because you have to, your body wants to move, but the game is to sit when the music stops.

So you have to pay attention and then you grow that muscle slowly. So you don't need to teach self-regulation by not, you know, I mean, it helps to not fly off the handle at home all the time. Right, right. Breathing helps. So if as an adult, as an exercise this week, you commit to no matter what happens in the house, I'm taking a breath in through my nose and out through my mouth before I respond to

absolutely anything that isn't a life or death emergency. You are modeling self-regulation. If your kids can learn how to take a breath, they won't do anything they regret, frankly.

I think the last one that you just said, which is self-regulation, is the most important thing. By far. If you have to weight them, self-regulation for sure gets the most important. You know, I've heard a lot of people talk about self-regulation as the number one thing. It's pretty important. Right? For...

For your mental health and for your overall well-being, right? For your nervous. And it's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest thing to do. It's harder when you don't have a self-regulated parent to have modeled it. And it's also hard when we live in a world where before we're challenged, somebody removes the challenge. So we do not get to practice it. That's important. And if you think about self-regulation, it...

requires attention, means you have to focus. It requires impulse control. It requires all these things that are linked with success in life. That was what it was. It was that self-regulation is the number one trait for success in life. Not just personal success, professional success, overall success, interpersonal

everything. If you can learn how to hone yourself emotionally, the world is your oyster, right? Because so much bad happens when you can't regulate, self-regulate. That's right. Because it's goal-oriented. You recognize that it does not serve you to veer away from whatever it was that you needed to focus on. And I think of it

I do say this a lot, but you understand this because you live in L.A., but maybe you've lived here so long you don't care about this. But when I moved from New York, I moved into a house like in a canyon with like just I was like, this is terrifying. New York City, fine. Yeah. If I scream, somebody hears me. I'm a Canadian. Oh, there you go. Yeah.

So I got like a ridiculous alarm system. And the first day I walked in the house, there was like a long beep. And then you, you know, you punch in the passcode. And I was like, oh, this is everything. This is the metaphor for self-regulation. Because if there's an emergency, then we do need...

Yeah.

And we need to be able to do that. And if you can practice deciding, is this dangerous or do I just not like how it feels? If you don't like how it feels, you don't need to act right away. If it's dangerous, you have to fight, flight, or freeze, right? Like you must, you can't think about it. But if it's not, you absolutely win if you just wait.

By the way, I love your analogies. Every one of the analogies are great, by the way. I mean, you should write a children's book, actually, because it explains so well what your point is. But that's a really good analogy. How do we... Okay, and then we can wrap it because I know it's been forever, but... It's like, what happens? I know. I see what happened with you and Jennifer Gardner. My God. I have another podcast happening any minute, but...

Other than learning to take a breath, how do we learn how to be self-aware enough to know that we need to self-regulate ourselves? So I like things to do and you can do this with yourself and out loud so that the people in your life learn this as well is say when you notice what's happening to you physiologically, knowing your body is very important because the signs are there earlier than they get to you.

Okay. Because you notice your hands are clenched because you're about to lose your mind. Right, right, right. So notice the signs. Notice the signs. So pay attention. Like, what are the things that happen just before I lose my mind? Yeah. Those are going to be key because you're going to notice, does my face feel flushed? Are my hands getting, you know, like for me? Yeah.

I have to notice my hands because that's the place where for whatever reason I'm like, oh, I'm clutching. I'm making this claw. And that claw means that I'm like, I'm trying to hold it together, but I'm about to lose it. Right. So I know if the claw comes out that the first thing I have to do, assuming that there's nobody's life that I have to save, is take a breath.

And if a breath bothers you, then you look around the room and you commit to this. Like I noticed the physiological thing that happens. And now I'm going to look at three things. This is not me. This is like a classic exercise, but like three things that I see, three things that I hear, three things that I smell or something, anything that punches that alarm code for you. For most people, it's breathing. For some people, they're like, I need something even more specific. And then it's like, I'm going to notice three colors and then I will respond.

So, but all of this comes from, you can even say in front of your kids, I'm happy.

feeling the bubbling up in my chest that is about to turn this into me screaming. So I'm going to go walk around the block. I'm going to say run around the block. I think for someone like me, physicality is really, really important because it changes your environment. Exactly. And it changes your mood and your temperament. And you're modeling that for your kids. Right. So when they...

see that you need that in order to, and you can say it, you can say, I'm not going to make a decision about this until I do a run. They're learning. And you can even say that to them. Let's talk about this after we go run around the block. And it just gets baked in. Yeah. And it shapeshifts and changes that moment. Because like you said, we tend to act

The worst in the in that moment when we're in the moment of of whatever that trauma or trigger. Yeah, that's not going to be your best decisions. But, you know, when you when you run around the block, you have to breathe. Yeah, you have to breathe when you run around the block. I know we got it. We got no, no, no. We got to wrap this because it's been I don't know how long. Seven hours. Probably. I can go for another five. I have a million questions. I didn't even ask you my question.

Will you come back? Any time. No, I'm serious. Yes. Okay. Because people say that. No, but I'm right here. You're like, yeah, you're like around the vicinity. But like, I can talk to you for hours. I feel the same way. I have so many questions for you, as you know. Oh, my God. I'm coming on your show. I know.

Who knows that? Like that's coming up, right? No idea, but it's coming up. I have no idea either. But okay, you guys, this is Dr. Elisa Presman. She's not a therapist. She's a psychologist, developmental child psychologist who is amazing. Her book is called The F- Well, you can say it again. The-

The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. And it's a book that you guys, if you have a child, I recommend it. It's really, it's great. And you know what I love? It's also practical. It's just practical information. And I love that you came on the show. So thank you so much. Where can people find you besides, of course, the book and the podcast?

Or your house. Yeah. It's heavily guarded. I'm joking. On Instagram? On Instagram, Raising Good Humans Podcast. And I have a sub stack, drlisapressman.substack.com. And I think that's about it. Yeah. Just follow her. You will not be disappointed. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. My pleasure. So bye, everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye.