Episode 203: Sal Di Stefano, Part 3 - Host of Mindpump Podcast, an Author, and Fitlosopher
01:32:45 Share

All right, guys, we made it. We made it to 2023. Happy New Year. This is going to be the best one yet. I'm not a big person in these New Year resolutions because I don't ever believe in waiting until January 1st. I believe in starting right away. Finally, my book, Bigger, Better, Bolder, has been out now for probably a week.

And I want to say thank you to everybody who pre-ordered it because it debuted at number one in business. And I am just so grateful and thankful for you guys. I really do believe that we all can be more bold and show up in our life in a real way.

with a little introspection, a little self-awareness, and we can design whatever we want for ourselves. I believe in creating a rich life, and that's not just money, you guys. That's about relationships, meaningful relationships, meaningful experiences. Now, if we're not born being bold, you can...

Learn being bold. I have a workbook in the back of the book. So it keeps people accountable and you see yourselves getting bolder by doing these little bold moves. So we are not just acquiescing to a good enough life, but we're actually realizing

Thank you.

are valuable and they mean something to me. So please let me know. Check me out and Habits and Hustle on YouTube now as well and on Instagram. Facebook now, we have a Facebook community. Here's to 2023, everyone. Let's make it the best one yet. Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

All right, you guys, we are starting 2023 off strong. All right. Our first January episode is with one of my favorite people, one of the hosts of Mind Pump podcast, Sal DiStefano. Now, when I say we're starting strong, I mean both literally and figuratively. This guy is just a wealth of knowledge in the fitness space. I mean, he's a

You can't really ask him anything that he doesn't like go down in the weeds, deep, deep down. I mean, the guy is so well-researched and so knowledgeable. I love, love having him on the podcast. This is now going to be his probably third time on, but he's a very good friend of Habits and Hustle. I'm a very good friend of Mind Pump. I am so excited for you guys to listen to this podcast live.

We cover everything, fitness, nutrition, supplements, and everything in between. Enjoy. Leave me a review. Let me know what you think. And here we go. This is a very interesting episode. I'm doing a podcast with one of my favorite people, Sal. Well, I think I've had you on like, what, three times now? I think so. Is this going to be the third time?

This will be the third time I've been on your show. And I'm looking at your book, but I would have you on regardless. Thank you. So Sal is one of, I guess, four. He's a quarter of Mind Pump. Yes. And if you saw him, he actually looks like Wolverine. Oh my God. And we're going to get right into that. But I have to say, before I even go right into what you look like, if people are just listening, he looks like Wolverine at its height.

I'm actually using the Mind Pump Studio. So this is incredible. I love the studio. I can get really used to this really fast. This is that unbelievable studio. And it's basically habits and hustle,

In the Mind Pump studio, which I think, like I said, I think I'm going to do this more often. We can do this maybe monthly or bi-monthly. Oh, you're always welcome here. Yeah? One of our favorite people, 100%. Well, thank you. I can bring other guests in here and use your studio. Maybe, we'll talk about it. Doug, will that be okay for you? Yeah, we can talk.

We can talk. Yeah. Okay. I love that. That's like basically like blowing me off. All right. It's okay. It's okay. I get it. It's fine. Just kidding. It's okay. But anyway, so I walk in because I was doing an episode on Mind Pump and now we're swapping and now Sal's going to be doing an episode of Habits and Hustle. I see you.

And I was blown away, as usual, because you are so ripped. It's shocking that you're in your 40s. It's shocking. You look better than any 21-year-old ever. Oh, man. Thank you. I'm like super blushing right now. No, you're on like the – you're probably on like the liver king diet. For those of you who don't know, liver king got busted for being – taking like – he's this guy who only eats liver and –

he was busted for recently for what? Taking Hella steroids and droplet hormone. Like Hella HGH for $20,000 or $15,000 worth of HGH a month. And I think you do it naturally. Yeah, mostly. I've been on testosterone replacement therapy for two years. So when I was younger, I got into fitness for a lot of the same reasons a lot of people do, right? I had a lot of insecurities about my body and wanted to change how I looked and

And that led me to some unhealthy practices. And that's kind of the journey through fitness, right? When you first get into it, I think a lot of people do it for vanity reasons or insecurities. But if you stick to it long enough, you start to develop better relationship or you have to, right? Or you'll end up hurting yourself. Well, in my maybe late 20s,

During this time, there was like this gray market in the supplement space for what they used to call pro-hormones. But they weren't. They were actually designer steroids. I didn't know this at the time. I just knew that they worked. But they called them pro-hormones. And I took them and they worked. And I think that period of time might have done some damage to my hormone system. So once I hit like late 30s, early 40s,

I started noticing just like, just changes. Like I just, my energy was low. I wasn't feeling good. And then consider I'm a fitness expert. So I've been working out. I eat right. I get good sleep. I take the right supplements. I was optimizing everything. But I was just kind of not feeling like myself. And I was telling my wife, like, I don't feel like myself. I don't know what's going on. But I never really got my hormones tested because my libido was okay. So I always thought low testosterone meant libido would be in the tank. Well, my libido was okay.

So I never thought, well, maybe my testosterone is low. So I just kind of went along with that. Well, anyway, we – because of the podcast Mind Pump, lots of companies approach us wanting to work with us. And we've been getting these hormone replacement facilities wanting to work with us because this is a big issue now, especially with men. Testosterone levels have been declining for decades.

Testosterone replacement therapy is becoming more and more, I guess, ubiquitous. It's something that you're seeing more men actually need because their levels are low. And so these companies kept approaching us and we kept turning them down because we weren't really interested. Well, one of them said, hey, we'll give you guys free hormone tests just so we can talk with you guys. And so we said, what the hell? I haven't got my hormone levels checked ever. So let's go do this. So we all got our hormone levels checked.

And to my surprise, it was actually quite devastating. My numbers came back super low. How low?

My total testosterone was 247. So to give you an example, the range of what would be considered normal is like from 300 to 1,000. Okay. Now here I am, workout, lift weights, eat right, get good sleep, try to optimize everything. And my levels were so low that a general practitioner would even put me on testosterone. It wasn't like they were kind of low. It was like at a range. Were you still at that point, were you still able to build muscle? Yeah.

I mean, I had this base of muscle that I had built. I remember I'd been lifting weights since I was 14. So, I mean, I was definitely stronger than the average person. I had optimized everything else. By the way, this goes to show just how much you can –

optimize your life through other means because I was still functioning. I was still doing work. I definitely didn't feel like myself, but you know, I was able to do, you know, to, to live my life. Well, anyway, when that number came back, I was super devastated, called my wife. I was so upset. I'm like, how can this be? Like I do all this stuff. I work out. I, you know, so I, you know, I talked to the doctor, tried changing things to see if it could affect it, but I'd already been doing everything right, I guess. Um,

and it didn't really budge too much. And because I'd already been, you know, I'm already in my, I'm already 40 at the time. I'd already had my kids or whatever. I said, you know what? Low testosterone is really bad for your health. I've already done all the stuff that I can do to optimize my testosterone. It's still low. At this point, if I don't,

supplement with exogenous testosterone, I can potentially suffer consequences like higher rates of heart disease, cancer, dementia, that kind of stuff. So I went on testosterone replacement therapy. So I've been on that now for the last

few years. And through the facility I work with, now they work with us as a company. I've also tried peptides, which is a very interesting- Did you like it? Segment. Going on testosterone or peptides? The peptides. Peptides are interesting. So I tried, there's a few of them that I tried. Oh, wait, wait, wait. What's your testosterone now, by the way? Now being- Oh, so when I do my testosterone injection, it'll peak-

up to like 12, 1300. And then by the time the next injection is to come around, I'm down to like 600, 500. So I'm within that, I stay within that range. The problem with taking exogenous testosterone is it helps from outside the body. So it's not my own. Is it bio-identical though? I mean, molecularly identical. It's not from a human cadaver, it's synthetic.

But it's identical to testosterone. Well, because they always talk about bioidentical is the best versus another kind. So I don't know much about this. I don't think they do that with testosterone. Oh, they don't? I do know that there's markets for that with like progesterone and estrogen, I believe. But I'm not super versed on it. So I don't want to comment too much because I don't want to mislead anybody. Well, no, because what I want, I think this is a very hot topic because of

Hormones in general are a super hot topic. And you're a great person to talk to about this because I have questions about myself. However...

What I find interesting is someone like you, like you said, who's optimizing everything that you would have a higher level of testosterone and you still don't. What does that mean? What are the factors that you think are environmentally potentially lowering that testosterone? Well, for me, the best clue that I have is that that period of time and I'd say my late 20s when I was using overhyped,

over-the-counter designer steroids. Yeah, is that what you're saying? Yeah. So these were, again, they were marketed as pro-hormones. A real pro-hormone is like DHEA, right? It's a hormone that through three or four steps can be turned into other hormones. Steroids are derivatives of testosterone that act directly on the androgen receptor. Okay. So testosterone, then there's steroids that are molecularly changed to be

maybe less androgenic, more anabolic, or have different characteristics. So you'll see like steroids that are better for endurance, some are better for power, muscle growth, that kind of stuff, right? So what they did during this period of time in the supplement space was at the time we had laws that made selling steroids illegal. However, the way that they specified what was illegal was they were very specific. So what supplement companies did, which was very smart, I guess, from a business standpoint, is they went back –

And they went to pharmaceutical companies that researched steroids that then decided not to bring them to market. Because they had never been put on market, because they were never really technically available, they were never explicitly made illegal. So these companies were allowed to sell them in this kind of gray market and they marketed them as pro-hormones with names like

Super Draw, Methyl-1 Testosterone, Haladrol. I'm naming a few of these, right? But now I know they were actually steroids that I bought over the counter. And they worked, of course. And so I think that that might have damaged my hormone system. And it didn't show up until I hit about 40 or started getting to 40. And I don't think that would have happened had I not done that. Because again, I lead a healthy –

Fit lifestyle. So, well, I'm only asking, uh, I'm asking for a lot of people cause I think it's a very, uh, one of these questions that people are asking themselves a lot that they're, why are they not gaining muscle? Like why are they not, uh, they work out and they're not getting the lean muscle mass that they would or their libido or their libido or whatever it is, especially in your forties. Right.

And also me too, by the way. So like I lift weights, I do all these things and my testosterone is very low. Do you think there's a difference for a woman or a man? So this is kind of an interesting topic because there's –

a range of what's considered normal. Right. Then there's what's best for you that's partially based off of your symptoms and how you feel. And that could be based off of things like androgen receptor density. So, like you could be a man with lower testosterone but have such high androgen receptor density that that lower testosterone is acting like higher testosterone. Or,

you could be a man who is, his normal levels of testosterone were really high. Then they go down. They're still not so low that you would be qualified as low testosterone, but they're lower than what they normally are. So you're not feeling like you used to. But I do want to be very clear before we continue, because I don't want to give the wrong idea. Hormones usually are reflection of your health. Okay. So if you improve your health, you tend to

get a balanced, healthy hormone profile. And what you don't want to do is mask poor health or mask symptoms through taking hormones. So like, let's say I was getting shitty sleep or I had a crappy diet or I was overtraining or I didn't work out and add low testosterone. And then I go take testosterone. Like, yeah, I'll start to feel better, but I'm not really fixing the root cause and my health isn't going to necessarily improve.

In my circumstance, I was doing everything right. And it was the testosterone itself was the issue. But I also want to be clear, when you go on testosterone replacement therapy, it's not exactly the same as your normal natural hormones. Not because the hormone isn't the same, but just, you know, when you take an injection of testosterone, which is how most men will take it,

Your levels go up very quickly in 24 to 48 hours peak, and then they slowly start to decline until your next injection. Testosterone levels don't work like that naturally. A man's testosterone tends to peak in the morning, drop a little bit at night. It goes higher, sometimes lower at other times.

Because I'm on exogenous testosterone, if I lose sleep or I do something that's not good for my health, my testosterone is still going to be high. Or at the end of the week, it's going to be low because I have to wait for my next dose of testosterone. So basically the message I'm trying to say here is ideally –

You want to do things the natural way. Ideally, you want to be healthy. You want to be fit. And then you want your hormones to reflect that. In the event that that's not happening, then Western medicine can really provide you with some good answers. Because what you don't want is you don't want to be a healthy, quote unquote, healthy male, also have low testosterone because that low testosterone now by itself can cause some health risks. Just like with low thyroid or any other hormone.

So do you think overtraining can lower your testosterone? Oh, right away. Yeah, if you lose sleep, there were some studies that I talked about on the show where I think two nights of bad sleep can lower testosterone like 30%. Overtraining, too much stress can lower testosterone. Too much cardio? Can cardio wreak havoc on someone's body as they age? Definitely. Lots of any type of exercise, too much exercise in general. Lots of cardiovascular exercise,

Can lead to lower testosterone because it tends to tell the body to pair muscle down to make you a more efficient cardio machine So if you want like a lots and lots of like long-distance endurance You don't necessarily want a lot of muscle you want to kind of be light and you want muscles that aren't strong but have a lot of stamina and So what you'll find is when you when you're pushing towards lots of endurance and stamina Let's say you do lots of long-distance running

Your body will organize its hormones to make you better at endurance running. And that usually looks like lower testosterone levels. So would you say then probably endurance athletes and people who do these ultra marathons, marathons, tons of long distance running, would you say those

that category of people probably do have a lower testosterone? If they were to switch to strength training, more strength training, less of that long distance type of training, then you would see typically their testosterone levels rise because they're telling the body to build muscle through the strength training. Also, we have to be careful because when we talk about extreme athletes or high level athletes,

When you're training for high performance, you're moving out of the realm of health, right? Because there's health and then there's high performance. So like, you know, a pro basketball player is an incredible athlete, but they're not the picture of health. Now, if you compare them to the average couch potato, they are. No, it's such a – you know what? That is so true, right? Because then you're playing in a different category. It's extreme.

It's extreme. So nothing extreme is good for you. No, not for longevity. Not for longevity. No, now I do. Now there's some, some caveats here, right? Which is, um, life quality also and enjoyment. So, um,

I, the way that I personally train is I place much more, if not most of my emphasis on strength training and muscle building. And I know that there's things there's, I could add more cardiovascular training. I could add more mobility training to give me better longevity, but

but because I enjoy it so much, there's also that life quality and satisfaction. So it's like, it's like, you know, having the glass of wine, like, okay, it's, it's having, you know, some glasses of wine. Is it great for my physiological health? No, probably not. But sometimes it's okay for your psychological health and enjoying yourself in the moment. So you also want to balance that out because you can get so extreme in the longevity sphere where you're like, you know, I eat very little. I

I don't overstress my body. I only do moderate exercise. I don't argue with anyone. I get no stress. I don't do anything, you know, like outside of this little bubble. So it's, it's a, it's a definitely a nuanced conversation, but yeah, if you're talking about extreme performance in any direction, um,

You're not talking about longevity. You've moved out of longevity. And now you're definitely trading longevity for performance. 100%. And there's a difference. Well, I wanted to circle back. I want to forget about the question I asked you about peptides. Yes. How do you think – what are peptides to people who don't know? Can you try – is peptides a replacement of like a testosterone hormone? What do they do for you? So peptides are not –

They don't replace your hormones.

Peptides cause, they can cause hormonal or biochemical actions in the body. Like stimulation? Yes, they are designed to act on certain receptors. So like for example, Ibutamorin is a ghrelin agonist, so it mimics the hormone ghrelin. Why would you want to do that? Well, because then it stimulates growth hormone. So taking Ibutamorin will raise your growth hormone levels. Does it actually work? Oh, yeah, for sure.

Here's another great market, by the way. You can go online and buy peptides and then administer them yourself at your own risk. I do not think that's a good idea. These have real effects in the body. You need to work with a doctor or physician who does your blood work, who tests you. For example, if you do like a growth hormone releasing peptide and you think, oh, it's a peptide I bought online. What's the big deal? It's not actual growth hormone, right?

you could still affect insulin sensitivity, right? You could still potentially give yourself problems because too much growth hormone can cause insulin insensitivity, right? And if you're predisposed to like prediabetes, then you probably don't want to take those types of peptides, right? There's this whole category of peptides that are really interesting or there's a whole slew of peptides that are really interesting, right?

I've messed with a few of them for the podcast sake, just to be able to talk about them. For example, there's one called, this one's a funny one. It's called PT 141, I think is the name of it. Oh, I don't know that one. I know one, two. BPC 141, five, seven, I think. That one's more for recovery. Healing your joints, stuff like that. There's another one that everyone was taking, like Joe Rogan take, like a bunch of them for, for, uh,

CJC. Yeah, CJC. 1280? Yeah, something with 129 or something like that. Something like that. That raises growth hormone. Yeah. But does it work? I took it for two weeks because I have a doctor friend. He's like, try this. It's amazing. I thought I was like retaining water. It will make you retain water. Really? I'm like, I'm getting fat. Yeah. Raising growth hormone will make you hold a little water.

For sure. So this is not something that's a panacea for everybody, number one. No, that has real effects on the body. But no, what I mean is, are these things good for men but not great for women? It depends on the person. I don't want to hold water. Yeah, well, some people like holding a little water. Like if you're trying to like build muscle-

Some water retention is good. You get better pumps, muscles contract harder. You increase your strength a little bit. Some women, you can't close your pants. That was my, that was my side effect. Well, some women like a little water retention cause it makes their, their faces look fuller. Maybe not as, maybe not as gone if they're, especially if they're super lean, your belly look bigger, maybe. Right. So, I mean, it depends. And I don't, uh, you know, I, I like to do self experimentation. I don't do any of this without, uh,

you know, my doctor looking at certain things and I do part of this for the podcast. Would I recommend this to clients? Here's what I would say to a client. Like, how's your diet? How's your exercise? How's your sleep? Like if no, if those things aren't great, like don't, don't waste your time, you know, messing with this kind of stuff because it's not going to really help you. But some of them are interesting. Like the one I was telling you, PT 141, it was designed to act like melanin. And so melanin, I think I'm saying it right, is the hormone that darkens your skin.

So if you inject this, you get like a little bit of a tan over time without having to go out in the sun. What? That's what it was made for. The side effect of it was a libido boost, especially in women. So how do you think they market this peptide?

How? To women for libido boost. Hold on a minute. Is that really true? That's what the literature says. And I've tried it and it definitely works. It does? It did for me. I know Adam messed with it a little bit. He said it worked for Katrina. So, I mean, it's fun, interesting stuff. I should try that. I want to try it. So, look into it. Again, work with- What's it called? I think it's PT141.

I think is the name of it. But you want to work with a doctor and make sure. And again, these are all like. And so basically you, it raises your libido, but it's supposed to like make you look tanned over time. That's the reason why it was originally developed. That's like a lot of these things. Like, do you know about Ozempic? No, what is that? You don't know what about, oh my God, I'm going to school you, my dear. What is it? So Ozempic is a drug that,

that it's basically this two, it's Wagovi and Ozempic. And it's a diabetes drug, but it's become a craze in Hollywood and in life for weight loss. People are losing exorbitant amount of weight. Does it suppress your appetite? It basically gives you that feeling of being full. It basically, it,

you're not able to eat as much because you're full. Now, a lot of the side effects are nausea, headaches, um,

diarrhea or constipation. There's so many side effects, but the results are people are losing a lot of weight and it's based on this one thing. It's called, uh, what's the drug. It's the same. Ozempic is the same as a Rogovi, uh, the main, the main thing in it. There's one drug right now that's being marketed for. Yeah. No, you must know it. Hold on a second. I got to, I invested in a company that actually, uh, makes that drug. Is it Samaralan? Samaralan. Yeah.

I think that might be it. Yeah. Well, it's like I say, I'm going to look it up to make sure that I'm not wrong here. Okay. The main...

The main thing in it is, no, semaglutide? Oh, semaglutide. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Semaglutide. Sorry, semarolin was something else. You're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's become like a – everyone's talking about it. So it literally is a diabetes drug to like kind of balance out your insulin. And everyone's – a lot of people. I shouldn't say everyone. And it's a lot of controversy over it. You know what? I'm always very careful when I talk about this stuff because –

You know, I've been doing this for so long, Jen. I've been training myself since I was a kid, training other people for a long time too. So I've been – I trained clients and I ran gyms and I trained trainers for almost two and a half decades, okay? And I understand that the benefits, the real benefits you get from exercise –

are not the cosmetic effects. Right. The vanity. Oh, yeah. So you get – and yes, there's health benefits and all that stuff. But really how you feel, your psyche, the journey and the process is where you gain some of the benefits. And so like even if they invented a pill that gave you all the physical results of exercise, you still wouldn't get the benefits, the same benefits of exercise. So even if you could take a pill and, oh, I'm ripped, but I don't have to work out or do anything, you still are – it's like –

It'd be like being dropped off on the top of Mount Everest. You know, you didn't climb it. You got a nice view. Yeah, exactly. But it's not the same. So I'm always very careful. Plus, also, I'm careful to talk about this stuff because people think even steroids, even anabolic steroids, okay? And we know how powerful they are. They're banned in every athletic organization and whatever. When you look at anabolic steroids effects versus steroids,

hard work, exercise, eating right, getting good sleep, discipline, throwing some genetics in there. Steroids is like 3%. It's like 3% compared to all this other stuff. So supplements, peptides, all these other things,

They can be beneficial when added to a formula that's really good and balanced and working. They're enhancers. That's what it is. Yes. Otherwise, they don't do a whole lot. It's like the average person listening right now is struggling to lose 20 or 30 pounds or the guy who's like, man, I have no energy. I don't feel good or whatever. And they're listening right now like –

The answer is not in any of the stuff that we're talking about. No, I agree. That's fine. I think to me, the way that is like, that's fine tuning or enhancing sometimes. But this is what I want to talk to you about. Because I could tell you, by the way, not to interrupt you, but I could tell you specifically-

what the differences were between low testosterone and high testosterone because nothing else changed for me. I exercise like I did before. My diet is still good like it was before. Sleep is good. All this stuff is the same. The only difference is I went from low testosterone to high testosterone. I can tell you exactly what the difference is. What is? About 11 pounds of muscle, and I'm burning about 600 to 700 more calories a day because of the added muscle. So that's a faster metabolism difference.

But that's it. So about 11 pounds of muscle. That's it? That's a lot. It sounds like a lot, right? But I'm a big guy. So 11 pounds is like, for me, it's like I go from 200 to 211. Okay, so. Yeah, but look at your muscle mass. Sure. And your lean muscle mass. I mean, you don't have, it's like you're defined. So this is what I was going to say. You're like, you're in a different category because you know what you're doing. You're optimizing everything. I want to talk about the most, like a lot, most people,

Let's say they have 10 pounds to look most people as you know in middle age or when they you know people who are just naturally or they are taking care of themselves they are working out they are watching what they eat they're doing all the basics right.

and they still have 10 pounds, five, 10 pounds. To me, that's the hardest. That's the hardest part to lose. That's the hardest part to focus on. I think it's easier when you have 30 pounds to lose, right? And you're not doing everything right. It's for the people who are doing everything right and they still can't lose that last 10 or they've gained it because of circumstance, like just life, you know, age, whatever. Right.

What kind of advice or what can people do to fine tune and to kind of tweak their lifestyle habits to lose that last five or ten pounds? That's a really good question because I know, you know, I've worked with lots of clients and that is a really frustrating position to be in because it's not like, like you said, like, oh, I got to lose 30 pounds. I'm not exercising. I'm eating like garbage. It's like, I'm doing all the stuff. And really doing the stuff. Yeah. Not lying about it. What's going on?

There's two ways to look at this or two avenues you could look at in terms of the solution for this. One is to work harder.

at what you're doing. And the other one is to work smarter at what you're doing. In this particular scenario, now if I'm talking to the average person who's not exercising, it's work harder. Like, all right, get up and move, right? You're not doing anything. We're not talking about that person. When I'm talking about this person, the answer is almost never to work harder. They're already doing that. They're already pushing. In fact, they've probably already pushed that button to work harder so many times and are frustrated because they're getting minimal results. It's almost always they're not efficient enough. They're not effective enough to

with the time that they are spending working out or they're not effective enough with their diet or their sleep or there's a piece that's missing there. And it usually is their workout. Usually what they're doing with their workout is they're doing more and more and more, trying to burn more and more and more calories, and they're not focused enough on teaching their body to burn more calories on its own.

They're not focused enough on – it's like this. It's like, okay, I'm making so much money, okay, and I'm working 60 hours a week and I want to become wealthy. Do I work 100 hours a week? Okay, now what? Now I'm stuck. How do I keep making more money? Or I could say, is there a way I could take the money that I'm making and invest it in a way so that it makes more money for me? So that's how you want to think when you're at this point. When you're at this point here where you've got that last 10 pounds –

and you're doing all this work, don't think how much more can I do? Think how can I do this in a way that's much more effective? And one of the most effective possible things you could do, especially when it comes to getting leaner, is to build some muscle. Build some muscle because muscle is money in – it's like invested money.

It burns calories for you. It makes the fat loss easier because it speeds up your metabolism. So typically when I look at somebody's routine, I'll take their total workout and I'll say, okay, how much time are you devoted to exercise?

workouts that don't build muscle. Let's take that away. Let's devote it more towards building muscle. Or maybe you're working out so much that your body can build muscle because you're overtraining. And let's cut some of that, give your body some rest, feed you a little bit more protein and see if we can build some muscle. And then what happens is you start to get compounding effects. Okay. So Sal said, I'm, you know, I'm working out five days a week, but four days a week of his running one day a week is lifting weights. Okay.

He said lift weights three days a week and only run twice a week. Yeah, let me do that. Okay, nothing's happening yet, but I'm feeling stronger. I'm feeling stronger. Oh, wait a minute. I think I'm starting to get leaner. Oh, wow. Look, this is starting to accelerate. As the muscle comes on the body, you get the compounding effects of getting leaner. So in those cases, it's almost – and that's just one example. And I gave you an example that's the most common, I would say. But in most cases, I'll look at someone's workout and

And they're either doing too much or they're doing the wrong kind of workouts. And in which case, I'll either scale it back or change their workouts to make them more

Efficient, more time efficient. More efficient. But that goes back to the whole thing that you said earlier, right? Like you're going to do the thing you like the most and the things you don't like, you're not going to want to do. So it's about quality of life too, right? Yes. If someone's someone who doesn't love to lift heavy weight and they really love tennis and dancing and cardio, right? They're going to go do that. So it's better to do that than

than to something that you app or then versus doing nothing. Well, you're, you're, what you're talking about, I think is, is the best answer, which is, you know, we get this question sometimes where it's like, um, you know, I, uh, I haven't found a career that I love or how do I, cause you know, people will say, Oh, you guys love what you do so much. Like the key is to, to, to do what you love that way. You never work a day in your life. No, no, no. The key is to learn how to love what you do. That's the key. Like if you can do that, um,

then you're doing great. So in this particular example, okay, I want to lose this last 10 pounds, but I love dance and that's how I work out. And Sal says I need to lift more weights, but I don't want to lift more weights. I like to do dance. Learn to love your body the way it is. It's the, I want my cake and eat it too type of deal. I get that. I get that we want everything, but I think many times, and again, especially in this category of people that we're talking about, because

I think fitness fanatics in this category can be especially harsh with their self-criticisms. Many times, I can't tell you how many times, Jen, people are like, oh, I can't lose that extra 10 pounds. And I look at them and I'm like, you look amazing. I don't think you see what other people see. I think you might be a little harsh on yourself. Right.

Learn to love and accept the body that you have and learn to love and accept the way that you enjoy working out. And okay, so you don't have an extra quarter inch on your arms if you're a guy. You don't have that – fine, you're not 15% body fat, but maybe you're 17%. But you're doing all this amazing stuff like –

I think it's probably better long-term for long-term happiness, which is, I mean, what else could you possibly want? But that, right? To just be happy with what you're doing and the way you look. Easier said than done speaking. Like, look at you, right? Like we, you're... You know why I shake my head when you say that? Yeah. Let me ask you this. You're in the fitness space, okay? You know our space very well. Some of the most fit-looking, ripped people...

You probably find some of the hardest, most challenging body image issues. I want to say that that's why I'm asking these questions for a friend. No, I love that. More from our guest, but first a few words from our sponsor. Say goodbye to last year's outdated, disorganized methods of managing your money and say hello to Rocket Money.

It is the best way to hack your finances in 2023. Rocket Money, formerly known as Truebill, is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills all in one place.

Rocket Money will quickly and easily identify all your subscriptions and you can stop paying for the ones you don't want. I don't know about you guys, but recently I noticed that I'm spending so much unwanted money or money that I actually want on things that I just never even knew I was paying for, which is insane.

So frustrating. Things that I thought I was signing up for as just a trial ended up rolling over into two years of payment. So I can't tell you how thrilled I am that I finally have Rocket Money. Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way by going to rocketmoney.com slash habits now. That's rocketmoney.com slash habits.

Thanks for listening to the Habits and Hustle podcast made possible by our friends at Traniagen. So I've been a huge fan of Traniagen for years, and that's why I am so excited to be partnered with them. I literally don't miss a day taking it. And think if you're going to take any supplement, this is the one. And here's why, with, of course, an added science lesson for you.

Our bodies produce a molecule called NAD, which supports energy production that starts in your cells. But the levels sadly decline up to 50% between the ages of 40 and 60. A nutrient that can help increase our NAD is a form of vitamin B3 called nicotinamide orylamide.

or otherwise known as NR. The most efficient, proven, and safe way to get this is with truniogen because it is the best NAD precursor. Truniogen helps support our bodies against everyday stressors that can damage our cells like overeating, drinking, and staying up too late.

In my opinion, no one is too young to take it. I wish I knew about this in my early 30s. It would have been a game changer. What's most amazing is that True Niagen is backed by over 200 published scientific studies and is researched by the world's top scientific institutions. So go check it out at trueniagen.com. That's

T-R-U-N-I-A-G-E-N. And we have a special offer for new customers to receive 20% off all orders of $100 or more using the code HUSTLE20 until December 31st, 2022. So definitely run, don't walk, just scoop some up today.

I feel like we are the hardest and most critical, you know, like because you've trained so much that you notice every nuance and see every imperfection. But most people aren't in the category of fanatical fitness people, right? Where it's like you and I, where we do it a lot, we've been doing it for our whole life. And so we notice this nook, this cranny, how this can be better, how this...

I'm talking about people who maybe not at that level, even maybe above average in like activity, who are struggling, who are doing all the weightlifting and who are doing all those things and still not getting a result that they want. How much of it is not training just on nutrition? Are there like key factors people should be focusing on that they're not? Yeah.

I'm a big, like you, I believe in protein is super important for building muscle. What's your take on protein that's not animal protein and what some key tricks that people can do on the nutrition side that can help with fat loss? You know, okay, so nutrition's a great topic because it's by far –

the most nuanced and that's got the greatest degree of individual variance. And here's why. First off, now there are some general truths with diet. So I don't want to be like, it's all up in the air. No, no, there's some general truths and we'll get to those. But when we're talking about nutrition and diet, let's kind of dive into why it's so nuanced and there's such a massive individual variance. Well, number one,

Biologically, we're all very different. I have a microbiome that's quite unique to my body.

Physiologically, I don't necessarily react and respond to food the same way as the next person. What do you mean? So I may eat something that maybe affects my digestion poorly, whereas for them it feels okay. Or maybe it causes a spike in insulin with me, but to the next person, maybe not so much. Maybe if food gives me a little bit more energy, it gives them a little less energy. This one makes me a little more full. Maybe for this other person, it doesn't work so well for satiety. So there's all that.

But then let's add in a huge factor, which is the psychological effects and attachments and connections to food. Like what is food? Yeah, it's proteins, fats, carbs, and calories. Is that all that food is? No. The top 10 reasons why people eat have nothing to do with fueling their body with proteins, fats, and carbs.

It has usually to do with enjoyment, celebration, mourning, anxiety, stress, boredom, emotional. Boredom is a big one. Yes. It could be I eat this food because traditionally this is what I ate when I was a kid and I have attachment to this particular thing. Or I don't like that because one time I got sick and now I don't like it anymore when I eat that or whatever, right? Yeah.

Food is extremely complex when you connect it to the person, okay? And you have to consider that when you're trying to talk about what's going to work best for me. What's going to be the best diet for me? Now, I can talk about what studies say. It's true that protein produces the most satiety in the body, meaning it'll

It'll fill you up the fastest and keep you full the longest. So it's really good for maintaining your calories. Protein is essential. I mean, you have to consume it. Your body can't make essential amino acids. You have to eat them. Fat is also essential, meaning there's certain essential fatty acids you have to consume. Otherwise, you'll fail to thrive. Carbohydrate is not essential.

You never have to eat a single carbohydrate. That doesn't mean that's ideal, though. Carbohydrates need to be consumed by a lot of people to have an ideal diet to give them the best energy, the best feel, and that stuff. You don't want to overeat. That's a general rule. Eating too much of anything is bad for you.

In fact, eating the right amount negates many of the negative effects of certain foods. So like sugar, if your calories are low, sugar doesn't have as bad of an effect, not nearly as bad of an effect on the body. Same thing with certain fats. You want to eat in a way to where you have, you develop a good relationship with food. Like that's a general truth. Like if you're constantly reaching for food, blunt emotions,

Or if you're using food like a drug, okay? Or if you eat mindlessly or without presence, that can be an issue, right? And studies will show this. Like if you eat food in front of the TV or in front of your phone, you'll consume like 10% to 15% more calories. Absolutely. Just on average. It's also habitual, right? Because you're used to eating this at that time. You're used to eating this when you watch TV. It's like changing those habits. Yes. Yeah.

this is going to fly in. I think this might be controversial, but I'll back it up. I think it's very true. Your body knows how to eat healthy. It knows how to eat in a balanced, healthy way. The problem is we're so disconnected from our bodies that

And we're so disconnected from understanding all of the values of food from an awareness standpoint that we don't know how to listen to those signals. So the path to healthy eating starts with education.

Proteins, fats, carbs, calories. What's the right amount for my body from this cognitive standpoint? What's the right amount of protein? And then from there, it's awareness. What foods make me feel good? Which ones give me the best digestion? Which ones affect my skin the best? Which ones make me feel good? Which ones make me feel bad? Which ones do I reach for when I'm anxious, sad, or stressed?

What foods are hard for me to stop eating? Right. Like bring awareness around that stuff. And then you can start to develop a more intuitive style of eating where like for me, for example, I crave well-cooked vegetables when my digestion is off. Like I crave them. And I didn't start that way.

it started with me becoming aware of my digestion's off. If I eat well cooked vegetables, it tends to fix my digestion. And so I started doing that. And then eventually I developed this behavior where that's what I want when my digestion is off. Right. Yeah. Um, so, so that's kind of the path towards sustainable longterm healthy eating. And I will add one thing. If you're looking for a body that looks good, you know, quote unquote looks good.

Just try to be healthy because chasing health results in a body that looks healthy and that usually looks good. If you chase looking good, you'll oftentimes sacrifice your health, in which case then you stop looking good. And you can see this with people who are body obsessed. At some point, like they can't take enough substances, they can't do enough plastic surgeries and everything starts to fall apart or their health deteriorates.

goes poorly and then forget all the looks. So it's really a good North star, right? It's a good guiding principle. It's like, okay,

How do I optimize my health with my food? What does that mean? I feel good. I feel healthy. I've got good digestion. I sleep well. My skin feels good. I have good energy. Like if you kind of aim towards that, that'll point you in the right direction most of the time versus what's going to make me look ripped?

What's going to make me look good? Because that oftentimes, that body obsession tends to lead us towards sacrificing our health. And then we end up with nothing. Well, yeah, I agree with that. I think I love that saying that you say, though. That's great. When you chase health, you chase health. Don't chase aesthetics. And then the rest will follow kind of thing. It does. It's so true. Yeah, it was just...

You know, you know what that really, really hit me? Well, it hit me as a trainer because I was always a better trainer to my clients than I was to myself. So I was really good with this with my clients before I really figured this out for me. Really? Yeah. Well, yeah, because I mean, this is, I think most people, right? Like, like,

you know, talk to therapists, right? They're like really good with their patients and they have their most screwed up people ever. Exactly. It's like, you know, it's, it's so true though, right? Like whatever you're teaching is usually your, you're bad at it yourself. Yeah. It's something you're working on yourself. Yeah. So I was really good. A lot of trainers become trainers by the way. And that's where a lot of people get into the fitness business. Totally. To your point. A hundred percent. So I was really good with my clients with this. And,

It just dawned on me. It's like, oh my God, like when I get my clients to really want to be healthy, they get all the results they want and then they stick. The results stick because they're valuing the health rather than the, just the appearance. It also dawned on me when you look at like studies on why we consider certain things attractive. Like why do we consider healthy skin attractive? Why is there a hip to waist ratio difference?

that we tend to universally find attractive? Why do we find a shoulder to waist ratio in men that's attractive? Why is muscle more attractive than no muscle? Why is a certain body fat percentage considered attractive versus too little body fat or too much body fat? It's because it's all reflective of health. Evolutionarily speaking, if you saw somebody – these are the signals that you would get to tell you this person –

is healthy, is vibrant, is fertile. I want to mate with them or whatever. So they're just reflections of health. Now we've perverted them all through plastic surgeries and drugs and stuff like that. It's on such a rise. You know that you can't even – it's a rise like what, 10,000% plastic surgery just based on the fact that I think even since COVID because so many people are more obsessive –

are obsessing on how they look because all they were doing was looking at Zooms of themselves and social media and the filters. So now people want to look like the filters. And if they don't look like the filter, they think they're ugly. It makes me sad. I mean, I have kids, you know. Yeah. And it makes me sad because they're growing up in this

And I suffered from body dysmorphia. Like I said, that's why I started working out. Do you think you still suffer from it? Oh, yeah. I don't think you get rid of it. I think you get better with it. I still –

I'm pretty sure I don't see myself the way that maybe other people do. Yeah, because you always sound super surprised when I say, oh my God, you look so ripped. You're so big, blah, blah, blah. And it's like you're like, what do you mean? Like you are one of these people that we're talking about. I 100%. It's definitely something that I wouldn't say I struggle with anymore.

But it's there. I'm aware of it, right? You think about it. Well, I'm just aware. Do you think you look good? I think I'm comfortable. I'm very comfortable in my skin. So do I judge the way I look and say I look good or look bad? If I go down that road, I think I could definitely – that the body dysmorphia will definitely rear its head if I start to go down that. So it's just more about being comfortable in my own skin, I guess. But like if you take your shirt off in the mirror, are you looking for every imperfection?

I used to. Now, no, not really so much. I don't study myself like I used to. You know, when I was a kid, it's like you look in the mirror like, is this changing? Is that changing? What's this look like? What's that look like? Not really, not anymore. Not studying it, but like are you still like, you know, in your own off of a podcast, let's say, or like in your own home?

Are you ever like, oh, shit, like I have a little bit on my love hand. Oh, my God, how did this happen? Like I'm doing it. Like are you hard on yourself? Don't lie. Don't lie. No, that's a good question. No, no, no. Let me think about that for a second. I think I can be. I'm sure I can be. I haven't been in a while, but I've been on a pretty good roll. So it's hard to say. I haven't had any like situations where I haven't been able to work out for a long period of time or something like, you know, or. So when you're consistently working.

habitually doing what you're supposed to, you feel good. Yeah, I do. But I'm not sure which one comes first. I think part of it is this mental. Okay, so this 100% will identify. Exercise is very much therapeutic for me, for sure. If I didn't exercise, I'd be a tough person to be around. Me too. Yeah, so it's definitely very therapeutic for me. I know it's there, but I think I'm better with it.

I know I'm better with it. I'm definitely comfortable in my skin because I identify more – less with my body and more with like what I do here on the podcast, with being a father and a husband. You know what would bother me the most would be loss of function. In other words, if I felt weak or if I felt like I couldn't do what I could do before, that would bother me more now.

than how I looked. And I think it's because I know what that means. Like, oh my God, I can't do that thing anymore. What if I can't play with my kids or what if I, but look, here's the deal, Jen, I'm gonna have to deal with that at some point. I can't, you know, we all get older if I'm, well, I should say if I'm blessed to continue to get older. Yeah.

I'm going to have to deal with that as well. So it's going to be like, it's look, it's a constant game of acceptance. Always. It never stops. I was going to say, it's like the, also the, the, when you know what you had, um,

And then you see it, you see yourself losing it. You're like, what is going on here? And then it becomes like this, you're chasing youth. You're chasing perfection when you can't chase time. It's fleeting. You can't stop the clock, right? So like this whole idea of longevity and biohacking your way to like youthfulness, what is your take on it? Like, do you think it's become, it's such an, it's become so extreme that,

As long as it's coming from a healthy place. It's not. Let's be honest. Yeah, that's the thing. No one's doing it out of a healthy place. People are trying to like slow down the clock and stop the aging process. Yeah, if it's out of rejecting the aging process. I'm just being real. I think that's a problem. I agree with you. I think if it's like, oh, like this is –

going to help maintain my mobility, my independence, improve my quality of life. But come on. How many people are really doing it for those reasons? They're not. I mean, I know that. You think Ben Greenfield's doing it because he wants to have more mobility when he's 80? I don't think so. I know in our space, especially, I mean, I know in fitness in particular, not just health, but fitness in particular, the vast majority of people are doing it because they want to look good. Right. And because they're trying to

Stop the clock. Fill a hole, right? Or there's an emptiness. And I'm going to tell you right now, you're not going to find it. You ain't going to find it until you learn to accept yourself and accept, I guess, reality. So it's just not going to happen. If you use fitness in that way, fitness can become very dysfunctional. Well, also, do these quick fixes or whatever you want to call them actually work? I mean –

I don't know, I have the red light at my house. I have a sauna at my house. I have a cold plunge at my house. My house looks like a wellness spa, okay? And I'm sure like, you know, you're the peptides and the testosterone and the supplements. I mean, at what, like how much of this stuff

is stuff that basically costs a lot of money and keeps, basically it's making the economy trillions of dollars, right? Because everyone's chasing youth. Yeah, look, if you looked at a pie, the pie represented 100 people

All that stuff is like 1% or 2%. That's the truth. Right. The 99% is your exercise, mindset, sleep, and diet. Now, the question should be how much of a difference can exercise, diet, sleep, and mindset make in your life?

Profound. Profound. It's the most powerful antidepressant known to man. It's the most, this is by data, facts, okay? It's the most powerful anxiolytic, right? Anti-anxiety known to man. It is a vehicle for personal growth. If you follow it and you do it for the right reasons, you learn acceptance, you learn discipline, right?

You learn about the value of work and effort, acceptance because you accept your body for what it is because you ain't going to keep going forever. Once you realize you ain't going to look like your favorite model, well, you keep going anyway and you accept that you're your own person. So it has profound effects, but more so because it's that journey that you're on and it can have those profound effects. All that other stuff,

It's cool and it can be fun, but it's so small. Now, the question is, well, why is it talked about all the time? Because they could sell that.

Yeah, of course. It's actually something that the funnel can send you there. They can monetize it. Or they can monetize it. This is the thing. What works isn't sexy. You know, at the end of the day, the things that work are still the basics. Yes. It's exercise, move more, sleep more, eat better. And these things have no price tag on it. No. They're free. No, and it's literally, and the data is very clear on this, proper exercise, good diet, good sleep.

Good spiritual practice. I want to include that because the spiritual practice has been shown to be profoundly impactful on mental health and longevity. Okay. It's also shown and success of life, success of marriage, success as a parent, success

just overall. And then, you know, you could throw a mindset in there, I think, you could probably throw in there. But that's like it right there. I know that sounds like, oh, that's it? Well, that's a lot. And community, I think, too, is in there, too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Your relationships. Thank you. Or community, like people around you. Like that's why, you know about the blue zones, right? Yeah, I do. And the people who live the longest are the ones who have like the deepest communities around them.

And honestly, walking was the most important best exercise by a landslide. I agree. I think walking's for a few different reasons. One, most people can still walk.

And that means that they don't have to like learn the technique and skill of it. So the injury rate is low. It's easy. It's convenient. And as a result, it's one of those things that people can do on a very consistent basis. So no, walking is actually one of the best forms of exercise for those reasons. If you add something else to it, strength training.

And then you're good. But yet people don't want to hear that. So that's why a lot of these salesmen, biohackers, sell a shit ton and make a bazillion dollars because they can't make money off of go walk outside. That doesn't sell. I guess my question is what is behind the psychology of

We all know psychologically and intuitively what works. And yet we're still able to be tricked and or manipulated. We want to be tricked. I know. We want to. We allow the manipulation. Like I know.

I know, like we're having this conversation, right? About what really works. And like you and I have done it all. We know it all. And at the same time, I'm a sucker. I'll go get that red light. I'll go do that. Cool. I'll go do all these things. Like, why do we, why do we still behave and, and go down those rabbit holes and those paths, even if we know better? Yeah. Well, you're, you're, you're an aficionado, right? With health and fitness. So for you, it's probably more fun to try different things. Yeah. Besides that, like for me also, yeah.

I think for the average person, they want to be lied to. They want to believe that their answer is in a drug or a device or a special diet where they just don't eat this one thing or just eat this thing. They want to believe it and they want to be fooled. Because the other option requires –

work and time, right? It takes work and time. Now, here's the myth. Here's the lie. Here's the big lie, right? The big lie is doing it the right way is hard. That's not correct. Doing it the wrong way is harder. Now, you might think it's not harder to sit on your couch, not move,

or to eat whatever you want or to take some pills or whatever. But the truth is it's harder and you'll see. You'll see how much harder it is to have poor health. You'll see how much harder it is to not do that work. Right. They say choose your hard. It's a myth. It's totally a myth. The truth is it's cheaper and easier to do things the right way. It just takes people willing to

to be uncomfortable, willing to grow and to change because growth and change come from being uncomfortable. That's all it takes. It takes that. So you have to be willing to do that. And then when you do it and you do it consistently and you do it long enough and you go on this journey, you start to just gain all these tremendous, incredible benefits. But you can't, I mean, I think people just, they want to believe in the lies because they don't want to take that step. They also want to take the responsibility. I think it's, it's,

You know, it's like I could somebody could sit there and say, wow, it's my fault. It's my fault that I'm unhealthy. Or they'd be like, not my fault.

it's my genetics or I just am not taking the right supplement or, oh, it's this thing that I'm not doing. I got to go do this, you know, shine this light on me and that'll make it happen. That'll make it, that'll like lean me out. It'll improve my metabolism. What do you think of, how much of it you think is genetics? How much of it, how much can you trick your baseline?

So when you think of genetics, think of it this way. Think of a wide range of potential. Okay. So like from let's say zero to a hundred, your lifestyle determines where you fall on that scale. Your genetics determine where that scale is. So like,

LeBron James. Okay. Let's say for basketball skill, the scale is zero to a thousand. Okay. He was probably born with like 700 to a thousand was his range in mind, somewhere like a hundred to 300 or maybe whatever. Right. Well, I can get as good as 300 with hard work and effort, and he can be as bad as 500 or whatever with doing no work and no effort. So

Yes, you have your genetics, but you also have this range that you can work within and that's what your lifestyle helps determine. Now, my question to people who ask that is, who cares? What are you going to do now? Okay, you got your genetics mean that you can't be super ripped or you're not going to be the strongest or the fastest person. Okay.

Like, that's what you got. What are you going to do now? Right. That's the cards that were dealt to you. How are you going to play that hand as best you can? That's it. Now it's up to you. Now you got your potential. Go work with your potential. And I'm going to tell you something right now. Hard work, discipline, effort, and growth, it usually trumps genetics and talent. Okay. And I'm not talking about the extremes. Yes, there's people who are like so talented, it's ridiculous. But

I know way more super talented losers than, you know, I know a lot of those people. And I know people who are like not very talented, but through growth, effort, and work made a lot out of themselves. Yeah, you sound like me. This is literally my book, by the way. I say that all the time, but...

I know so many super smart dumbasses out there who are doing nothing. And I know a bunch of dumbos who are like living the high life, having the best time, being super successful and have everything they ever wanted. You know what I mean? Like, I don't believe that you should just like fall on that as your excuse for life of like why this is the why. No, it's a shitty way to live, man. It's a sad, shitty way to live.

And, you know, look, again, your choices are accept what you can't change and focus on what you can't or dwell on the stuff that you can't change. That's a prison. Why would you want to be stuck there? Look, you know, read books on POWs or people who've been through some really challenging things. Read, you know, there's some really, really good stuff out there and you'll read age-old philosophies on this. Stoicism talks about this as well. It's like, it's like,

Even if the result were the same, even if the end result were the same with person A who focuses on the stuff that they can't change versus person B who focuses on what they can't change, the person who focuses on what they can change will feel different and better because they feel better.

Like they have some autonomy, like they have some control. So regardless across the board, it's a better choice. Now, I don't believe they'll end up in the same place at all. I think we have so much evidence to show that if you focus on the things that you can change and ignore the stuff that you can't, you're going to turn out much better. The evidence is clear on that. But even if it wasn't, it's like you're going to feel – you're just going to feel much better. And that's the road to success in anything. It's definitely the road to success in fitness. I could tell you right now meeting with someone –

If someone's going to have the right attitude for long-term fitness success versus failure. And it's the difference between the person who comes to me is like, everybody's overweight in my family. There's nothing I can do. It's my genetics. I just like food too much. This sucks. I hate exercise. Versus the person that's like, hey, you know, what can I do? Let me try some different things. I'm willing to learn. I want to try making some changes. I'm going to focus on the stuff I can change and the stuff I can control. Like that person is going to do well.

I agree with you. My gosh. It's like, it's like you're singing my song. What's this? I mean, I think I always, I'm still on this whole intermittent fasting, fasting thing with people. Like, what is your take on this? I mean, I find whenever something is super popular and has in a fad, you find out in five years from now, Oh, actually, whoops, we were wrong. It's actually the opposite effect on your body. You know, like what did you don't intermittent fast? Um, I can sometimes. Do you sometimes? Yeah. Um,

I think fasting's benefits, physiological benefits are massively overstated. I think fasting's spiritual and behavioral benefits, okay, on the right person can be profound. Fasting has been present in every major religion for thousands of years for a reason. They didn't do it for fitness or health or any of that stuff. They did it for the spiritual aspects because it's detachment.

It's detachment from one of our most basic needs. I think the value is there. So unless you have an eating disorder like anorexia or bulimia or you have really dysfunctional eating, in those cases, you don't want to use fasting because that can turn into something really bad.

I think fasting from food can be profound because you grow up in modern society. You have food around you all the time. Not eating for two days? Well, you'll have to face some demons. You'll have to deal with certain emotions and ways that you use food. It may help shift how you look at food. But I also think fasting from electronics can be profound or fasting from –

TV or entertainment or anything that you have this attachment to. I think that's where the value is physiologically. I mean,

Maybe some benefits. Calorie restriction seems to provide the same benefits. I think in some cases fasting is probably unhealthy physiologically for some people. Maybe people under a lot of stress. Fasting might not be so good. Women tend to be more sensitive to fasting than men in that particular regard. Why is that? I can't fast. It's impossible for me. A woman's body is much more sensitive to stresses that could render her –

infertile or dangerous to her young or to being pregnant. So going without calories, if the woman's body is already under a lot of stress or already really lean, that may make the body like freeze up because in change hormones to make the woman less fertile or whatever, because it's not necessarily a good environment for, you know, for getting pregnant. So that's just that kind of like an evolutionary thing. Whereas with men, that's not so much of a pressure.

So that's probably why women tend to be more – I say tend to because it's not always true but they tend to be more sensitive –

I find what happens is if I'm not eating for that finite period of time, I'll end up binge eating and eat all those calories I would have eaten earlier just later on in the day because I'm starving. Yeah, that could definitely encourage a bad relationship to food. That's what I notice with people is they'll fast and they'll have their little eating window and they just end up like restrict binging.

I was like, how's that healthy? That's exactly what I'm saying. That doesn't seem healthy. You know? I mean, you identified that in yourself. And that's smart that you did that. I think people need to be a little bit more –

honest with themselves and be like, yeah, because I know people who fast and then you look at when they do eat, you're like, are you being honest with yourself? They're not. I think it's, but people are falling victim of these trends and think, oh, it causes your body to like burn fat then it does this, it does that. I think even having butter in your coffee, to me, I, I,

I know myself well enough to know that's just extra calories because I'm still going to be eating later on. It's not going to stop me from eating. Yeah, no. Right? No, somebody monetize that. Monetize fasting. Very well. And by the way, a lot of these biohackers, if you see them, they're, I don't know, 40 or 45, whatever. And they look like they're 140. They don't look like they're Benjamin Button. They don't look like they're aging down. You know what I mean? No.

Yeah, I don't know. That whole space is very interesting to me. And it's, you know, very marketing heavy. I mean, it's tough. It's like, all right, who do you get your advice from when it comes to health and fitness?

People who talk about how to do it in a sustainable way. I think that's who you need to listen to. Well, you're super knowledgeable though. So what would you say in your space? Because you're like a philosopher on top of it all. But what would you say is your – do you think you know supplements really well, fitness really well, nutrient? You seem to have a great grasp on all of it. What would you say – not tricks, but –

Number, what would you say are like key things that the average Joe who is someone who's active and fit could do that they don't know about? Like, is there like a supplement? Like, let's just say if I, omega-3, I know it's not omega-3, but I'm saying like in a perfect world to kind of,

Things that people, why does this keep on ringing when I keep on, there's no, it says silent mode on and it keeps on ringing. I'm going to ask that question again. No problem.

People who are already healthy, who are already fit, who are already active, right? They're doing all the right things that we talked about. Since you're an expert in all these things and you're so well-read, what are some things that people could add and supplement and enhance their program that is not part of the mainstream that we can incorporate? Oh, yeah. So it's going to sound basic and boring, but get tested for your nutrient levels because nothing –

Supplementing can be profound when you're supplementing a deficiency. So you can be fit, healthy, whatever, and find that your magnesium is low, zinc is low, copper might be low. And what happens to your body if your magnesium or zinc are low? Oh, your anxiety levels can go up. You can notice digestive issues. Like I got tested recently and my copper to zinc ratio was off.

And because my copper was low, my skin and hair pigmentation was lighter. So actually my hair was whiter than it could be. And I could also have reduced levels of energy and stamina. Really? So I started supplementing to balance them out. And my hair got darker and I started feeling healthier. So get your nutrient levels tested. How often? Yeah.

Oh, that's a good question. You probably don't need to do it more than maybe twice a year. I don't think you need – unless something radically changes in your life, you probably don't need to check it more than once or twice a year. But once you get tested, actually, it would be more often if you do have a deficiency because you want to see how well you're supplementing for it. So like if you have low vitamin D, make sure you get tested three months later so you can see that it's working, that you're absorbing what you're taking or whatever because it could be some other underlying factor like malabsorption or something like that. Yeah.

Test your nutrient levels and make sure that your nutrient level is where they need to be because that's profound when you supplement for that if that is indeed an issue. And then the second one that most people mess up on is sleep.

A lot of fitness and health people, the difference between seven and a half hours of sleep and eight hours of sleep is huge. Half hour, huge, huge. Aim for eight hours of good sleep every single night. Watch what happens. It's like game changer. That half an hour makes a difference? Game changer. How? Just a little bit. Just try it. Try it out and see how you feel. It's...

It's especially if you work out hard, you need a little bit more sleep than the average person or if you work hard, that kind of stuff. Like give yourself good eight hours of sleep. I tell sometimes I tell people go for eight and a half, nine hours, especially if they're really under more stress than usual or really, really training their bodies hard. But go for that eight because most people aim for eight but end up hitting seven.

Actually make it eight and watch what happens to how you feel. You'll notice within a day or two. You'll feel sharper. Your verbal fluency improves. Your mood improves. That was a big one for me. Like going from seven to eight hours, I'm just in a better mood. I'm less snappy with my kids or my wife or whatever. Just better mood. Do you drink coffee? I don't drink coffee, but I do take caffeine.

Like caffeine pills? Yeah, I'll take caffeine pills or a caffeine supplement most mornings, but I'll take more of it on my hard workout days, so before my workout. So I use it as an ergogenic supplement.

So would that be like how people used to be in the old days? Remember ephedra was such a big thing? Oh, yeah. I was huge with that. That was huge. I thought it was the best thing in the world. Oh, my gosh. Literally, we know we were taking herbal speed. I know. Who knew, right? I loved it. And then do you think – are you taking caffeine? Does it act like an ephedra? Like does it really – is it better to drink coffee or take a supplement of caffeine? Oh, coffee is really healthy for me.

for the most part. But for energy purposes. Yeah, for the most part, it's healthy so long as it's appropriate for the person because if you're

You could also have bad sleep as a result of caffeine. You'd be under too much stress, in which case caffeine can amplify that. But the reason why I don't drink coffee is I don't tolerate it well with my gut. So if I drink coffee, it tends to bother my stomach. Do you have a lot of digestive problems? Oh, yeah. That's where my health issues will lie. Because you've said that a few things. Like you like vegetables that are really cooked because of your digestive issue. Oh, yeah. I had a big – I mean in my early 30s, I had – I mean my digestion went terrible. I thought I had Crohn's disease.

And I had to completely change my, that's the message you hear now was developed

Then, because of my health. My health took a turn for the worse. And that's where it hits me. I know other people, it's in other parts of the body. But for me, it's my digestion. It's your gut. Yeah, definitely. Okay, so you're saying – sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. No problem. Just finish what you were saying. You were saying the coffee. Coffee is a great source of antioxidants. It's very healthy, even decaf, just because coffee itself is healthy. Right. So if you tolerate it well, it's the best way to get caffeine.

Absolutely. Better than the caffeine. And so how do you take pre-workout? I mean, I take it as a pre-workout. I'll take caffeine as a pre-workout. So that is your pre-workout. Yeah. So I'll go caffeine plus theanine because theanine balances out the caffeine. You take a supplement? Yeah. Amino acid theanine.

There's coffee now that's made with theanine. I know. Right? Yeah. Do you like that? I have. I've tried it. It's good. Is it like enough of theanine to make a difference? You want to typically go one to one or two to one. So I like to go two to one, theanine to caffeine. So if I go 200 milligrams of caffeine, I'll go 300 to 400 milligrams of theanine. What does theanine do? Theanine helps. It's like it calms your...

the brain and the body. So caffeine gives you the energy, but then, you know, you can get the jittery shakiness, the theanine smooths it out. So caffeine, theanine, you get this real smooth kind of euphoric, long lasting energy.

And so how long before your workout do you take it? About 40 minutes. 40 minutes in the pill form. Yeah. Or if you drink coffee. Pill form or supplement form. I developed a supplement with Organifi called Peak Power. That's got caffeine in it, so I'll do that sometimes. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah, co-brand. I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it?

So it's called Peak Power and it's an energy supplement. So it's got caffeine, but it's also got things like lion's mane and bacopa and herbs. Does it work? Oh, yeah. It's a good time. Really? Oh, yeah. You've never sent me any of it. I just literally just came out with it. You know what? We have some in the back. So before you leave, I'll give you one. Oh, my gosh. I want to try it. Yeah, you can try it out. What do you think of like, would that be considered a pre-workout? Yes, it would be, but it's not the, I guess, the...

classic category of pre-workouts because it's not, I'm not all about like giving people crazy stimulants and making them cracked out of their head, right? I want, like I'm also health focused. So it's got the stimulants, but it's not like, you're not going to take it in like, you know, like here colors. Right. So I get you. Like a C4. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, that's when I – so do you believe in shakes? Are you a shake person? It depends on the situation. So I think protein shakes can be useful if you don't hit your protein targets. So like at the end of the day, oh, I missed my protein target. Let me supplement with protein. But I don't – I think that you shouldn't replace food with shakes. That's terrible. You think so? Yeah. Whole foods. There's nothing like whole foods. No, but if you're like making – like a lot of people –

their thing is in the morning they'll have a shake. That's fine. But versus like what would be an ideal breakfast? For most people it's a fat protein containing breakfast. It tends to balance out insulin and blood sugar levels and it gives people good consistent energy. But it's not true for everybody. Some people do better with a carbohydrate type breakfast. How do you know who you are? How you feel?

You got to become aware of how you feel. Eat your breakfast and do I have good energy? Am I getting energy dips? How's my digestion? But most people are good with like a protein-based diet.

type breakfast like eggs. Eggs are like nature's superfood, one of the most healthy foods on the planet. I would eat the same breakfast for 25 years, okay? And I recently got my nutrients tested. Tell me what you think of this actually because I think this happens quite a bit with people. It turns out I'm highly allergic to eggs. I've been eating five eggs a day for 25 years. Wait, allergic or you have what they call intolerance? No, not intolerance. I ask the same thing.

It was bright red, like it was flagged. So IGE antibodies or whatever? Highly allergic. Like it was like 25 times. But you ate them every day? Every single day. So what happens when you eat them? So this is what I was going to, I guess, I don't know. That's why I stopped eating them like a month and a half ago thinking maybe I'm going to. No.

So here's what I hate about those tests is... But you just told us to go take these tests. Well, no, that's not a nutrient test. You're testing antibodies. What's interesting... Well, no, I know. Isn't that tasting... Oh, okay. I'll tell you why. Yeah, maybe you're right. Yeah, what's interesting about that is if you...

If you do, in fact, have an autoimmune reaction to them, but you've been eating them every day, you might be better off eating them every day because in some cases, now this is not my realm of expertise. No, I get you. But in some cases, avoid, because they'll tell kids with food allergies this, they give them a little exposure every day so they don't get the anaphylactic shock when they get exposed to it on accident. Yeah. So I'm wondering what will happen if you eat eggs now, if you'll get a really bad reaction. So does that mean I was allergic? I mean, or why would it come up like that?

That's very strange. I don't know. That's really weird. Because it's something I, that was like a core. But you had no allergic, like physical symptoms or reactions. No, not that I knew of. I mean, that's why I was like, oh, okay. This is when testing can annoy the shit out of me because they'll tell you, oh, this is what you're like, but I feel, everything feels okay. Yeah. That's when I say, listen to your body. But again, I want to,

Caution because of that. And this is from a guy that is like the top nutrition guy in the country. He does all the sports teams. Weird. Does everybody. Weird. And he's like, get off of that. Have you heard of black currant oil? Oh, a bit. I don't know. I'm not super versed, but I've seen it as a supplement. It's supposed to be high in iron. No, it's supposed to be high in – Oh, I'm thinking about black molasses. 6, 6, 6. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.

Were you low on B6? Supposedly. He told me to go on. He says, that's what I needed to be on. Also, L-carnitine. What do you think of L-carnitine? I mean, if you eat a lot of red meat, you're probably okay with that. I don't eat a lot of red meat. I like chicken. I like chicken. Yeah. L-carnitine's in chicken too. It's an amino acid. It's an amino acid, right? Yeah. But wait a second. So the shake. So let's get back to this. You said something. You said,

The caffeine pills, you said the theanine. I got that. Give us some other things that you do and also some other things that the average Joe, who's not you, wouldn't know to do that can maybe help enhance whatever they have. Well, great. One of the best supplements known to man is creatine. And they're saying now women should be doing it. Everybody. Why? It's...

It's healthy. It helps cognitive function. It's good for the heart. It's got antioxidant properties. Helps build strength, build muscle. It's a longevity supplement. It's not just for athletic performance. Creatine, your body uses it to make ATP. ATP is what every mitochondria in your body uses as one of its primary sources of energy.

It helps. It's anti-aging. Everybody should take creatine. So why doesn't anyone – this is exactly – why hasn't anyone said that before? Why now? It's already happening. It's starting to happen. No, it's happening for the last like a little bit. But it wasn't five years ago. If a girl would take creatine, it'd be like, oh my God, you're going to get so mass. You're going to build such mass. You're going to get bulky. Because it was originally marketed for building muscle because it does make you stronger.

And so that kind of overshadowed it, right? Because that was the messaging. But no, I mean, all the studies on creatine, there's antidepressant effects. It's got cognitive boosting effects. It's good for the skin. It's antioxidant, good for the heart. It's literally, in the next five to 10 years, you're going to see creatine in every wellness supplement. It's going to be like, they're already giving it to

They're already adding it to supplements for the elderly in like care homes and stuff because they're noticing that it's got these health benefits. Okay. So how much creatine should we take? You know, two to five grams a day is about right. So you could put it in a shake. Yeah, you put it in a shake or just take a straight creatine monohydrate. Okay. Is there – and also – okay, give us a couple more. Okay.

Supplements? In general. It doesn't have to be supplements. I want pro tips that you can give to somebody who is already active and just wants to kind of get a little more bump. Yeah, a little more bump. That they would never know otherwise. Like, oh my God, I never knew that. Beta-alanine is a supplement that can help with muscular stamina and endurance. It's a small effect, but it's real. Some people don't like it, though, because if you take it, you'll feel like a tingling thing.

under your skin. So it kind of feels weird for some people. So that's a good, that's a supplement. Gosh, everything else is kind of like hit or miss depending on the individual, you know, and what might work for one person isn't going to really do much for another person. I wish I could give you more, but supplements just aren't magic. It doesn't have to be supplements. It could be a food. It could be an exercise, which are here. I'll give you, I'll give you some of your top exercise and your top food. Top exercise. Yeah.

I'll give you the top exercises, okay? Some kind of a press, some kind of a horizontal press, some kind of an overhead press, some kind of a row, some kind of a squat, and then something that includes rotation. There's five categories of exercises that will really cover 95% of movement and developing your body. So there's that right there.

Foods, I'll give you, here's a good tip. Whatever you're eating, eat your protein first. That tends to lead to more appropriate calorie consumption, better satiety, and you obviously, because you hit your protein targets, it helps with muscle building and fitness. So when you're looking at your dish of food, finish your protein, then eat the rest.

So don't eat it all at the same time kind of thing? Eat the protein first. Okay. Do you believe in a cheat day or you think that's just silly? No, that's terrible. You just eat. Some days you eat other foods and other days you eat other foods. That whole concept of cheat encourages that restrict binge mentality with food, which I'm not a fan of. It's a dysfunctional way of looking at food. What are you cheating on?

You know what I mean? Yeah. Who are you cheating on? It's weird. Yeah. It's weird. So you don't do that. No, I don't communicate it that way. And, um,

I mean, I know that he said, get the hell out of here. The cleaner is going to come now. Okay, I can wrap it up. We can do this again, which I'm sure we will. Do you want me to? Yeah. How long has this been? It's been like... Oh, we've been over an hour. Oh, okay. Well, I'll wrap this up with my friend, Sal, because I can... You can come on anytime. You're always welcome on the podcast. Love it. Especially when I'm using your office. Appreciate it. The book is called The Resistant Training Revolution. It's been out for a little bit, but it's excellent. He is...

For those of you who don't know, Sal is honestly, I'm not just saying this because you are in front of me, but it's because it's the truth. One of the best resources I've ever known in terms of information in the health and fitness space. Thank you. Because you are so well-read and you put a lot of effort and you are a guinea pig.

and like you are you're not one end of the spectrum or the pendulum or the other you really are somebody who sees nuance and understands that not everybody is the same i i think that you're like a great like a great person to kind of bounce stuff off of or like to look at as a as someone of a of expertise so thank you so much no and i believe it so thank you for being on this podcast thank you so much

Habits and hustle. Time to get it rolling. Stay up on the grind. Don't stop. Keep it going. Habits and hustle from nothing into something. All out. Hosted by Jennifer Cohen. Visionaries. Tune in. You can get to know them. Be inspired. This is your moment. Excuses we ain't have.