Episode 186: Cassie Holmes – Award-Winning Teacher and Researcher of Time and Happiness
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Today on Habits and Hustle, we have Cassie Holmes. Cassie is a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Business and is an award-winning teacher and researcher of time and happiness. And she is the author of a new book called Happy Hour. It's based on Cassie's years of academic research and a wildly popular MBA course called Happy Hour. It really provides practical information of how to think about

and spend time to live a more joyful life. I read this book. I really enjoyed it. I like anything that gives you really actionable things that you can really integrate right away. And this book really did it. I think you guys are going to get a lot out of this podcast. So enjoy.

By the way, I didn't even realize how impressive you really are in your bio until you came over, but we're going anyway. We're started already, just in case you didn't know. You went to Stanford Business. You were a Wharton professor. Now you teach business. You teach the MBAs at UCLA, and you're teaching a happiness program.

and a course that you basically created, right? And your new book, and not only new book, but your debut book. First book, which I'm super excited about. Right? And it's a good one. It's called Happier Hour. And I was just saying to you before we even started, I love this topic. I love when people come on this podcast and talk about happiness and happiness research and how to...

you know, make the best of your life. And I, your book was, and because of your background, your book has some, I, I trust it. You know what I mean? Like given the fact of like what you do, you're a researcher and everything else. And it's based on data and it's not just my opinion nor experience. Although I share my experience and stories to make the data more relatable, but it is all based off of research. Yeah. Mine as well as my colleagues.

And that's why I can trust it. And that's why I wanted to have you on. It's because it is science-backed. It's research-backed. And so who better else to have on to talk about it? So let's jump right in. So what really kind of caught my eye is that I'm somebody who always feels, because your book is called Happier Hour, happy.

Um, that there's never enough time in the day. I constantly feel like, you know, we both have kids who are exactly the same age, seven and nine. That's two kids. Plus we're both working moms. I'm always feel like hectic. I feel there's not enough time. I feel rushed.

And I feel like that's most people in the world, right? It's a lot. And actually what you're describing, this feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it, is what we call in research time poverty. So you feel time poor. And I've actually done research on this to show just how prevalent it is. So we conducted a national poll and we found that almost 50% of Americans think

don't feel like they have enough time to do all they set out to do. And some people, so moms tend to feel more time poor than dads. Working parents tend to feel particularly impoverished.

But all types of people lack for time, right? Even folks who don't have kids, folks who are not working, you see this sense of having a hectic pace of life with too much to do and not enough time to do it. And it's actually also a global phenomenon. So surveys show that across the world, there are many people that feel this way. And it's bad, and I'm sure you can relate to this, as...

a mom who has your career rushing around with like a million things on your to-do list, it is costly. And our research shows that. So we find that people who feel time poor are less healthy. So we're less likely to make the time to exercise. You though carve out the time to do it. And I try to as well. Yeah.

It's important to me. And you talk about that in the book. Totally. It makes us less healthy. It makes us less nice. So when we're rushing around, we're less likely to slow down and help others out. It makes us less confident. So we feel less able to accomplish all that we do set out to do. And...

related to my research and what I care most about is happiness. When we feel time poor, we experience less positive emotion, more negative emotion. So more stress, more worry, um,

And so we're less happy. And that's a bummer. Time poor. I like that name. It's true. It's very accurate. So then how do we manage our time better? Because it seems like it's much more about time management than really anything. And I think...

you know, that's a skill, right. That people are either sometimes better at than other people. Um, I'm actually not that great at it. I mean, it's weird. Cause I am a very type a personality and most people like that are much more like do, do, do, do, do, but I can get like lost in thing. Like maybe it's more my, I also have ADD. So like, I like focus on something too long or whatever. And I think again, what I'm saying is something that a lot of people deal with, right? Like

maybe poor time management. So how do we create a situation for ourselves where we can be more time efficient with our, like be more efficient with our time and manage, learn to manage our time better? Yeah. And it's such a good and important question. And I just want to sort of flip that because what happier hour is all about and what my research and what I've been sort of set out to do for the last,

12 years in my research and then what I teach are MBAs, is that it's actually...

You shouldn't be driven, or I don't want to use shouldn't because that sounds all judgy. It's okay, judge away. More joy comes from our time when it's driven by what's worthwhile rather than just efficiency. And I think so often we are driven to get things done because we want to be productive. We are doers, right? That's true, exactly. But with respect to time management, it really is about investing more of your time in what's worthwhile rather

And we can talk about what's worthwhile and less of your time in wasteful ways. And that is absolutely not me being judgy. And I can talk about how you can identify for yourself what are more wasteful ways to spend so that you're maximizing worthwhile time, minimizing wasteful time so that at the end of the day, you know, that crazy day where you're rushing around, you're not like reflecting back and being like,

Man, I'm exhausted and I did a lot, but I feel like nothing actually got done. And instead, you're like, oh, that was really fulfilling. I'm exhausted, but I'm satisfied. And so it's really about how to make your days feel fulfilling, not just overly full. And it is about management. And actually going back to even your framing of the question,

He referred to it as a skill. And it is a skill, but it's one that can be learned. So it's not like you're going to tell, you know, how you deal with time. And, you know, I am not. It is. And that's actually really what

my course is about. So what I teach at Anderson, uh, at UCLA among our MBA students is a course that is called applying the science of happiness to life design, which is exactly that. So based off of the science, there are things that we can, we can be informed in our decisions of how should we invest our time? Um, so that you feel happy in the day to day, um,

and more satisfied when you're evaluating your life overall? So I called it a skill. I call time management a skill very...

very deliberately, right? Because I believe in what I do and what I talk about, um, on the podcast and outside of the podcast is a skill is something that can be learned by anyone, right? Like I think there's talent and there's skill, skill, it's practice, right? Anyone could get better at something if they practice and if they kind of are, they want to get better, right? They may not be proficient and become an expert necessarily, but they can always get better to what, from what they were. Um,

So what are some tools that people can do to,

Do you have like strategies or tools where we can become better with this? Yeah. Okay. And so I love now that you've sort of shared your use of the word skill. It's absolutely a skill. Good. I'm glad. I'm glad that you also agree. Yeah. So figuring out how to spend your time to feel sort of more fulfilled and

There are strategies and the book is all about those strategies. So I give exercises that are the same assignments that I give to my students. And some of them are about reflecting back to identify how are you spending your time and sort of pulling out, calling out what are those ways for you personally that you spend

that are worthwhile? So what are those ways that feel satisfying while you're doing it that looking back feel good? And also, what are those ways that are wasteful that you're like, oh my gosh, I am spending my time in this way and a lot of time. So let me describe. So for instance, one of the exercises is time tracking.

And so what I sort of instruct you to do is over the course of a week, and I would actually suggest two weeks because it is a more sort of complete representation of the activities that fill your day-to-day life, is track.

each half hour writing down what are you doing, what's the activity, and not sort of a broad, like, I'm working or I'm with my family. It's like being more specific. But in addition to writing down what you're doing, really importantly, is rating on a 10-point scale how satisfying, how happy, how joyful is that activity. And with that, at the end of the week or the two weeks later,

You have your own personalized data. So you can look across all of your activities. What are those activities that are closer to the tens? Right. What are those activities that are like inevitably twos and threes? And also, as you look at the sort of most happy and least happy activities, you can even pull out what are dimension, like commonalities among the most happy commonalities among the least happy. And that can actually be quite revealing. Um, yeah.

And you can see how much time you're spending on these types of activities. So you can see, for instance, and, um, like in line with actually what the time tracking research shows, uh, in looking at what my students have pulled out the commonalities of their happiest times, inevitably it involves social connection, like genuine connection with other people, um,

And, I mean, this, if you're talking about the sort of research into happiness, that is the most sort of fundamental need that we have beyond like our physiological needs of like, you need to have shelter, you need food, you need water, you need rest and health. Right, right, right.

But beyond that, like our most basic fundamental psychological need is a sense of belonging and connection. And when people are reflecting and looking at their data, that's what you sort of pop out. And you can also see like it's not like all socializing feels really connecting, but you can see for yourself like I know.

know that my connection, my sort of happiness comes from one-on-one conversations. Right, right, right. I want to learn about you and I want to share about me. Like it's that one-on-one connection. Whereas like my son, the most extroverted person in the world, he's like, the more people in the room, the better.

The more people that I can make laugh, the better. And it's not about that. Less about the more of a deeper, you're talking more deep connections. Like what you're saying is I agree with me. I prefer like one on one deep, like kind of like intimacy in a way, but in a way, um,

Um, while there's other people who much more, more grandiose and it's like they're more surface, uh, relationships or social connection. Yeah. And perhaps, I mean, I would say that my son doesn't view it as surface. He views that as like his source of like happiness. True. I was going to say, my husband is very much like your son and he doesn't see it that way either. You know what I mean? I just see it that way because I don't like to talk about the weather. I don't like to talk about like superb, like, like,

I think they're superfluous things. Right. But if you ask someone who is an extrovert like that, they don't think it is. Right. Yeah. But, and all the people I've had on the podcast and all the research experts and, and happiness experts, I should say, um,

and people who live the longest, like for longevity, it always, you know, comes down to social connection to some capacity, right? Like having a community, having a social connection. So this is not like this to me is like, yeah, of course it's going to be social connection because it's way above and beyond, um,

It's like the most... It truly is the thing that kind of like fills us the most at the end of the day, right? Totally. And what's really important and impactful from this time tracking exercise is that A, you can identify for yourself what are the activities or the types of activities that make you feel particularly connected and give you that sense of belonging. Right. But also...

It's quite...

to see like you're like, you know, as we all reflect back and, you know, your folks that you've spoken to and the research all shows social connection is the answer. But in our crazy busy lives, as people are looking at how they spend their weeks, it's like those happy connections, like meeting up with your sister for dinner or like, or meeting up with friends for drinks. Like we have busy lives and we're like, I

I don't have time for that. Right. Right. But also what you see in this data is like we don't have time or we don't make time for those really important, fulfilling ways of spending. Yet you can see like in the data that you're spending, not you, right?

My students observe that they're spending a whole lot of time in ways that are wasteful, like social media. It's more distractibilities. Like it's just distractions. Like social media, like you're saying, these are time sucks that like put you through a rabbit hole that you don't even know you're really doing at the moment.

Right. And then, but once you have the data in front of you, you're like, holy cow, I am a busy person. I don't have time to cultivate these really important relationships, but I spent a dozen hours this week on social media. Like that is helpful. That's good information. So then you can be like, okay, going forward, I will make the time to meet up with friends for dinner and I will, um,

Like it's even that data, that information that is so concrete and vivid. You're like, okay, I'm not going to pick up my phone and check real quick, you know, of what's happening on, you know, the feed. Exactly. So it's like the time tracking is a really great tool then.

because it shows you in real time what you were doing and how, you know, you do have time. Like, that's what kills me when people are like, oh, I don't have time to work out. Really? You don't have time to work out, but you have time to like just scroll your phone and, you know, like dilly dally. I mean, we all do it, right? Yeah. I mean, the truth of the matter is like, that's what, this is again, back going back to being more basically,

managing your time better, right? Totally. And that time tracking helps you manage your time. Yeah. But does it help with like, does it, at the end of the day, it may help with, like what I find happens a lot, even with myself, is sometimes you can have all the data in the world, right? And I know exactly what I'm doing wrong, but then the execution to fix it is where you get stuck. Like I still get distracted by social media, even though I know it's a time suck and I don't want to be on it, I can't help myself. Right.

Well, yeah, you can. I mean, I could, but it's helpful. It's important to have the reminder. So it's like you have the data that's really vivid. And then there are other exercises that I have that is the get moving exercise. So basically, this is totally up your alley of the importance of exercise. And when I ask people to complete the sentence, I don't have time to complete.

Things that people say are exercise. They don't have enough time to get enough sleep. They don't have enough time to read for pleasure. They don't have enough time to cultivate the relationships that, you know, that hang out with the people that they love so much.

But exercise is one of these things that it is absolutely worth making time for because it is a mood booster. It actually, because what time poverty is, is this feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. But what exercise does by increasing a sense of self-efficacy and self-esteem, it actually increases your confidence of being able to accomplish

complete and accomplish what you set out to do. So, um, you know, running that thread, it actually makes you feel like you have more time. It limits or it sort of lessens that sense of like, Oh, I'm limited because I don't have time. You know, when you make the time to do go for your morning run or when I make the time to go for my morning run, even though I'm like, Oh, do I have the time? I don't have the time, but I make myself do it.

then I'm ready. Like I'm like, bring it on day. Like I can do all of those things that I want to do. I totally, not only do I agree with you, I have a book coming out soon. Um,

I love that you said self-efficacy. I saw that in the book too, the word self-efficacy. And I think that the fitness thing, the correlation is so on point with all the research that I even did with this stuff. Because fitness to me, or exercise I should say, isn't about doing the squat or the lunge necessarily. It's about what the after effects are from that particular exercise.

thing is that you're doing. Yeah. The self-esteem, the self-confidence, the feeling that you actually, the feeling of productivity that you get from it that allows all those are the app, like the byproducts that will help you throughout your day with all the other stuff you're trying to like conquer. Totally. And you said something that I wanted to ask you about, um,

You talk about this like two to five hour thing that I thought was really, really like I thought was really interesting that anything you feel. Well, you could talk about it, but talk. Tell us about this whole thing.

Two to five hours of free time is the sweet spot of time, not time, of a happier hour. So the two to five hour. Great. And before I do, I just want to say yes on the importance of exercise as well as sleep, actually.

And I talk about that from the time tracking. It's not one of those activities that necessarily pops up as really important for your happiness because some people don't actually feel all that happy when they're exercising. But what you do see is following exercise, you see the ratings increase. So it is like I call them mood boosters where you're

Doing exercise, getting enough sleep, not, it's not so, I mean, it's not as much about how you're feeling while doing it. It's really, it colors all of your subsequent activities in the day. So it is absolutely worth the investment. Um,

Um, but wait, I like that. Did you say that? Cause I think that's exactly what I say too, that it's not, do you think I want to be doing a squat and a lunge and run for every morning or whatever? I'm like you, you run every morning. I mean, in the moment of doing it, it's not, you're not doing it for that half hour that you're exercising, but a day is 24 hours, right?

But the after effects again throughout the, at the 23 hours or the 48 hours or the week, that's what you're, that's what the aim and the goal is. It's not for that like finite 30 minutes. Totally. Right. So, but it's like, it's like a mind shift that people have to understand. Right. It's not me.

It's like one of those things where people don't understand. Like you don't know unless you know. You have to kind of go through it to understand in a way. Yeah. And it's not like, so my book is called Happier Hour, but it's not about like every single hour. It is about all of our hours.

Like our hours sum up to our weeks, our days, our days, weeks, decades, life. And so it's like to the extent that you can invest your time in ways that color all of your, that make this, you know, sum of your hours, that is your life happier. That's worth the investment.

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So getting back to the sweet spot of time is you're saying between two and five hours is a sweet spot for feeling time affluent, right? Is that more or less? Well, kind of. So the...

The motivator for this particular research was we wanted to see, and it actually stemmed from going back to your initial question of like, so all of us, I mean, so many of us feel time poor. And I start the book by sharing, you know, like one of those days that I was running around. I was earlier in my career when I was a professor at Wharton and I had just had our son, like he was four months old.

And I agreed to give a talk up in New York. And so I'm like, get up early, like miss my morning snuggles and then back to back meetings, give this presentation and then going to this networking dinner and rushing to get the last train that will get me home to my son. And I remember that night on the train, I was exhausted. I did make the train, but I was exhausted. And I was like looking out the window and it's like, everyone's asleep as you know, like the houses are whizzing by and it's so dark. And I'm like,

I was like, it's all going so fast. Right. And I was like, I don't know if I can keep up. And at that time I was like, I think I need to quit my career because it's just all too much and I can't keep up. And there's this career that I love and it works so hard for. And then I was like,

I was like, if I quit, then I can move to like a sunny island and spend my days relaxing. And wouldn't I be happier? But that question of would I be happier? Would we be happier if we had a whole lot more free time in our day was something that as a researcher I could test. And so I did. I decided like, let me hold off on my decision to quit and see if

Would we be happier if we had a whole lot more time? And so we analyzed data. We conducted a bunch of studies, including analyzing data from the American Time Use Survey. And what that does is it looks for tens of thousands of working and non-working Americans, how they spend a particular day. And from that, we calculated how much time they spend on discretionary activities. So we could see what's the relationship between how much discretionary time people have and their happiness.

And what we found was really interesting and surprising. So this is the two to five hours that you are mentioning. What we did find not surprising, because that was me on the train and that was motivated your opening question, with too little time, too little discretionary time, we are unhappy. So less than about two hours or a data in that data set, it suggests less than about two hours of discretionary time in the day. We are less happy. What was surprising was that

beyond having about five hours of discretionary time in the day, we are also unhappy. And that is also like...

do not quit. Don't quit your job. And the reason for that is, getting back to some of the themes we've been talking about already, is we want to be productive. We want to have a sense that we're accomplishing something. And so if we have days and days, like our regular days on end, with nothing that feels worthwhile that we've produced, then actually you see that dip in sense of purpose and less satisfaction. But

between about two and five hours of discretionary time in the day, you see actually it's pretty flat. And so that means that it's not so much about how much time you have. It is how you invest it. And this is like so helpful in so many ways because it means that for us that are time poor, don't quit.

Particularly if your job is a source of satisfaction and productivity. It makes you feel purpose. But two hours isn't totally outside of the realm of possibilities. Actually, at that time, I was like, there's no way two hours in the day. There's no way. But once you actually calculate in your day...

how much time like what are those ways of spending that you wouldn't have wanted to spend in any other way so you have kids like there are I'm sure there are also like ways like ways of spending with them that you're like not as fun but there's like moments and not only moments like you know the 20 minutes where you're like digging in I don't like I can speak for myself like

reading to, you know, at the end of the day, those like, you know, as we're in bed, putting them to sleep, that reading, they say like, it's those like, really, that's 20 minutes there. Even though commuting not very fun, but talking during my commute to like my best friend, that is time that I love at dinner when I, you know, pour myself a glass of wine and I'm chatting with my husband about our day, those things set up. So it's like, I'm at an hour and a half.

of ways that there's no other way I would have wanted to spend that time. So two hours isn't totally outside of the realm of possibility. So it doesn't have to be consecutive. It could be just throughout the day, right? So like, as long as it adds up between two hours and five hours, it doesn't matter if it's

you know, 26 minutes here, 10 minutes there, as long as throughout the day you're getting that time. And then you talk about like, uh, the strategy of bundling, right? Like if you were like, like maybe doing it, is that, I'm not sure what is the bundling strategy? And actually before we move on to bundling, it's really important to recognize that those two to those ways of

The times that you're spending in those ways that are like happy times are

it's also paying attention during those times. So it's not just doing the activity, right? Yeah. It is paying attention during those activities. We are so distracted. So research shows that we, our mind is somewhere else other than what we're doing almost half of the time. And, you know, like our cell phone, their smartphones, that is a major source of distraction. So it's,

If you only have an hour and a half or two hours of time that you're spending in exactly how you want to be spending it, pay attention during it so that you get all the happiness, that sort of potential, and right there in front of you, and try to the extent possible, remove distractions by putting your phone away during those times. It's not like put your phone away always, but for those...

happiest ways of spending, like make them no phone zones. So phone goes away to the extent possible. Try to quiet, you know, our to do list that's like running through our heads constantly. But how do we do this? This is all, again, nice in theory. How do we do it in reality? So another exercise that helps in doing this, it also might bring a tear is counting times left.

So for these sort of things that bring you joy, if you reflect back over the last week, you know, you were like, what are those moments where you felt most joy? Oftentimes it is with the people that you love so much.

And it's like a very mundane, oftentimes everyday experience. And what happens is because they're so everyday, we think they'll continue to happen everyday. And so we take them for granted. Like we don't pay as much attention. But if you count...

the times you have left and so that includes so for me for instance um a coffee date with my daughter

I, this is like a 30 minutes within the week that I love. Like it is. What do you do? I thought you do a nail date. Well, today I'm going to go on a nail date with my daughter. The coffee date happens in the morning and we do it once a week. Um, and it is something that what could be very routine and like thoughtless. It is what actually stemmed out of me needing a cup of coffee on the way of dropping her, you know, at preschool, um,

And so something that's very functional routine, what we did was we turned it into a ritual. So it became special. And it is special. And it's like in that specialness, it's like we know exactly what to expect. So we anticipate it while we're in, you know, she has her hot chocolate. I have my coffee. My phone is away. I am paying it. Like this is our 30 minutes of like us with each other.

Where do you guys go? Do you guys do it at home? Do you guys go to Starbucks? No, we go to a coffee shop. Living in Westwood, Profeta was our coffee shop, and I love it. Oh, yeah. It's no longer there, right? No, it's there. Oh, it's there still? Yeah. Oh, okay. And it's delicious and yummy, and they probably would not enjoy having a seven-year-old come, but they have come to appreciate us and expect us.

On the mornings of our coffee date. What day do you, I mean, give me more details. Thursday mornings. Thursday mornings before work or what is your routine? Sorry, ritual. Yes, it is. And it all sort of stemmed out of dropping Leo off his carpool off. And then we go get our coffee. And hot chocolate. And she gets her hot chocolate. We get our croissants. It is delightful. And then we go to our coffee.

And then I drop her off and then I go into work. I love that. That's a great ritual. It is. It is really important. And actually going back to this, the sort of overarching takeaway from those results of that sort of two to five hours is,

It highlights that it's not about how much time you spend. It's really how you spend that time. So those 30 minutes, it's not a lot, but it is so impactful as to my sense of satisfaction because like my closeness with my daughter is like I, you know, am I happy? Yes.

Am I busy? Yes. But why am I happy? Because I have these wonderful relationships that I love so much. I feel a sense of connection. I feel belonging. And it comes from being, creating these special moments and going back to the times left exercise and calculating. So like, say I included the coffee dates when she, I was on maternity leave. So I'd like bundle her up and we'd go to the coffee shop. Then our weekly coffee dates, um,

And then I actually think forward, how many of these coffee dates do we have left? Not a lot because, you know, when she's 12, she's not going to want to go to the coffee shop with me. She's going to want to go with her friends and then she's going to go off to college. And then she's going to move to a different city and live in New York like I did, you know, and then it will be on visits. And so I calculated that we have 30% of our coffee dates in our entire life left and she's only seven. Yeah.

And what does that make me do? It makes me spend the time. It makes me carve out and like prioritize spending that time. But it also makes me put my phone away. So it's like we do have choice. Like when we have these very vivid reminders of just how precious our time is and can be.

that's the motivation you need to be like, oh yeah, I know I meant to put my phone away, but you're like, oh my gosh, we don't have a lot of this left. So yes, like I will put my phone away. So thinking of time in terms of not just years, what would it be like? Not just hours, but finite hours.

Like, yeah, amounts of time that we have, like calculating the math behind the particular thing that you want to do. And when you see that number, like visually, like, oh, I only have 20 more dinners with this thing. Cause you know, a friend of mine does this very well. Um, he, you created this thing called build your own, uh, what's it?

build your own resume. Jesse, it's, there's all about like time management with this thing, which I think is a really smart idea because it, it shows you in front of you, how many of X, whatever it is you want to do, you have left. And so then you're kind of like in a good way forced to put things on your calendar. So they actually get done otherwise, right? Otherwise they're just like ideas and dreams in your head or like,

I will do this one day. And that one day comes and you've never done it, you know? Totally, yeah. And it's so important because...

Again, like our hours sum up to our lives, but you need, like by recognizing just how finite the amount of time in our life is, that you're not thinking about the stresses of like hour to hour. You're actually thinking about what's the life that I want to lead. And that brings you back. Reverse engineering. You're basically like working backwards. Yeah. And once you identify what are those stresses,

times of joy, those really worthwhile ways of spending, then I have a whole chapter in happier hour called time crafting. So based off of all this reflection and these strategies that I give throughout the book, how do you actually design your week schedule so that you are putting those

Most worthwhile activity. Like my coffee date with my daughter gets in that calendar first, no matter what meetings get scheduled around it. It is a non-negotiable. It's non-negotiable. Um, and then like, also like even, you know, work there, there are work hours that are like that big, you know, the big thinking, the strategizing for me, it's like the sort of deep thinking of like, what are the learnings from the work and how do I sort of relay that? Um,

But we have these sort of parts of our work days that are really joyful because they're sort of aligned with our purpose and our long-term goals. And then there's a lot of waste. So making sure that you do make time for that important work time and happy and satisfying work time and minimizing the time for waste. So that's

time crafting sort of pulls some of these strategies together, including bundling. Sorry, going back to your question. Yeah, including bundling. No, no, no, it's good. It's good. So what is bundling? So bundling, from the time tracking, you will identify there are things in my day that are not fun. They get those low happiness ratings, but you have to do them. And I'm sure you can be like, what are the chores of your life? Grocery shopping. Grocery shopping. And...

Is there a way, if you can't outsource it, which grocery shopping you actually... I don't like to outsource it, though. I'm using it because I think you get, like, shitty stuff when you give it to someone else to do. Okay, so for you, it's not something you're not willing to outsource. Nope. I don't like to outsource lots of stuff like that because I think then people never care as much as you do, right? Right.

Right. Certain things are, anyway, this is a whole other podcast, but like, you know, I like to go to Costco by myself. That's like, I think that's a great stress reliever, but how do I, I call my mom when I do it. Yeah. And so that's what bundling is for these activities that are not particularly fun, but you have to do that or you, you know, you're going to do them. It's bundling.

bundling it with an activity that is fun. Well, is it fun? Sometimes it's not that fun calling my mom while I'm... But I get what you're saying. I think it's more bundling things you have to do together. Can that be bundling too? It doesn't have the positive effect. Okay, that's for sure. Okay, go ahead. So you actually are making the activity worse. Worse.

Whereas if you say you called a friend or you listen to, you know, podcast habits and hustle. Right. And so you're learning. I was kidding mom, by the way, but I just want to say that right off the bat. I'm going to get a ton of people like, what do you mean? You don't like talking to him. I do love talking to my mom. But my point is you want to do a positive activity with a chore that's kind of more looked at as not so positive. Yeah, because it makes that time flexible.

fun. It makes it feel worthwhile. So I mentioned one of the things that people don't feel like they have time to do is read for pleasure. If you listen to an audio book every time you're going grocery shopping or you're getting in the car, you can actually get through a book every week or so. And so that reading, it's wonderful. You learn, you're increasing your empathy. It's

I love to read and it's one of those things I don't feel like I have time to do, but I list, I fill, I bundle it with the times that are unfun and it makes me actually excited to go grocery shopping. Cause I get to hear what's happening next in the book. Yeah. So exactly. I love that. And I think that's a really, I, when I read that, it like resonated because I see that, like, I, I,

And to be fair and be honest, what I do is I try to bundle, probably not the way you kind of call it bundling, but I do sometimes do that positive bundling. But sometimes I just bundle like the things I have to do, kind of like, I call it more multitasking, I guess is what you're calling it, right? Or I call it. But that's a good idea. So then like in your brain, are you saying that when you take the kind of chore-like activity and you...

bundle it with more of a positive thing to do, does it change the neuro, like the way your brain? It changes how you experience it. That's what happiness is, is like how you feel in it and how you feel about it. On a cellular level, does it actually make a difference or you don't know about that portion of it all? I haven't looked at it at a cellular level. I'm interested in the subjective experience because that's what the experience is.

That's more of a neuroscience kind of question, right? Yeah. Yeah. But it makes it more fun. And that's like, if, if the goal is given that the goal is to make more of your hours feel worthwhile and happier, then that's how you do it. Yeah. That's one of the strategies to do it. You talk also about the eulogy, which I can kind of, that is, that to me was a really good, I love that part because,

Because that would make, I think, anybody kind of like stand up and rethink, right? Yeah. And it's going back to what you said. It's sort of reverse engineering. So it is leading you to think about your life overall. And so what the assignment is and my students. Well, anyway, it's, you know, like.

it's impactful and it's poignant. So what I have them do and what I exercise that I, uh, share in the book is to imagine like at the end of your life. So imagine you live a long life, right? The eulogy that you think would be given about you. And so what that leads you to do is write the life that you want to lead and what it pulls out. It's like, what are the ways that you, how do you want to be described? What legacy do you want to leave? Um,

This is very valuable, right? Because it forces you to, the eulogy does force you to really think about those things. Totally. It clarifies what does matter to you. And so by having that very, you know, like defined for yourself, the things that matter to me, the things that matter that I am,

The, those, that broad perspective informs how you spend your hours, right? It's like, Oh, this is, this is important to me. This is how I'm going to behave. Um,

So that I am ultimately going to be living the life that I want to live. So it's really empowering. So like some of my students are like, that is depressing, but really important. And then other students I've heard that it's really empowering because it shows you, like shows many of us that we're actually already living in some ways, you know, our ideal self and our ideal life. Right.

And it also motivates us to do so. Like we have control, we have agency, we, you know, in, in how we, how we spend our time, how we approach our time, um, such that we feel happier and more satisfied looking back. Cause the goal is both to feel happy and satisfied in our days, but really so that we don't look back with a sense of regret. Absolutely. I mean, yeah.

I agree. I think people tend to feel right. Especially when you're young, that you have all the time in the world to do something, you know, like, Oh, I'll do it later on. Like we were talking earlier. Right. Yeah. And, um,

you know, having this, like kind of having this kind of be brought to the forefront, I think is really important. Not just for like, that's why I don't think this book is only for like, or your, your research. It's not just for people who are in their, you know, middle, like they're the lot, like 40 or above, right. It's for people who are younger who also, because it makes you think differently about how you do live your life and like how you do spend your time. Right. Yeah. And,

there is like a finite amount of time we all have, whether you people like to think about it like that or not. Right. Yeah. So, and yeah, and that's the goal. And that is what I have seen the impact of,

of on my students of these lessons, as well as folks who have read the book so far, is that it really does shift our approach to our days. And it's really, it is like existential, but very attainable. It's just, you know, how do we spend our time so that

our days, so our hours, so that not only are we sort of reallocating towards these times that are really are like we need to do, they are like give us that sense of fulfillment, but also we're really invested while we're spending it so that it has as much of a wonderful impact as it can. So we do feel as much joy as possible, which is so often right there in front of us. And it's just like,

paying attention and, you know, spending their time on it. Right. What was the most surprising piece of research that you found in when you did, when you wrote the book? Well, I actually think the opening that I shared was that the answer to this frenzy is not to quit.

Like, and I think that. I think that too was very interesting. And it's also notable, you know, with the great resignation. The last couple years have, I mean, it's interesting. I've been doing this research for a dozen years. But I used to have to like motivate, like happiness is important. Time is important. But actually the last couple years has shown us that we can't take

our emotional well-being for granted. Like with anxiety rates going up, depression rates, it's like, oh, we need to take care of our emotional well-being. Like happiness is important. We need to figure this out. Same with time. It's like it used to be that I would have to tell young people, as people get older, they do start to recognize that their time is precious and they start to savor more.

But what this has shown is young people, it's like, oh, like we also can't take our lives for granted. And so wanting to find that meaning and spending our time better. And that is what's, you know, driving, leading to this great resignation where people are like, oh, I'm going to quit my job. I know. And I think that this...

that our results, our data showing that actually having, you know, days wide open to spend however you want isn't necessarily the solution. It is given the time that you have, making sure that you do spend it in ways that feel worthwhile to you. So I also will say that,

among folks who do have a lot of discretionary time, if they spend it in ways that feel productive and purposeful, then actually you don't see this dip in satisfaction. So retirees who do volunteer work or who have a passion project or individuals who are not working but they spend time on

And hobbies that are personally enriching or really sort of connecting with folks in genuine ways, you don't actually see this dip. So really it's not about how much time we have. It's, again, how we invest the time that we have. Absolutely. The whole idea, though, like if you want something done, give it to a busy person, right? Because is it because people who just have too much time, do their brains just become like –

become more... Well, the busy person, you know that they will say yes because they've said yes to all the other things that make them busy. But I think something in motion stays in motion, I feel. Like it's like the... Yeah. But that busy person, that's the person I'm talking to. I'm like, you need to be more purposeful and let you say yes to. And...

Making sure that you're protecting time for the really important stuff. Yeah. No, I love this. Thank you. I think that was, is there anything else that I've, no, I think. I think we covered. One thing I wanted to ask you, commitment devices. What is that?

That is with this recognition that it is very easy for us not to make the time for these moments of joy, these activities that are really important for us, is making sure that

having a commitment device to make sure that you do it. So an example here is, again, going back to that sense of connection that's so important with my husband. We are great teammates, right? We are both working, we're parenting, and we are doing it oftentimes in parallel. And it

With the busyness of things, it's very easy to sort of lose our conversation and connection. And so carving out the time for date nights where it is not about us being teammates, you know, doing it alongside each other. High-fiving each other as you wait past. It's like sitting across the table and being like,

How are you? Partner, friend, love of my life. But it's so easy not to do that. So an example of a commitment device is to pay for a standing babysitter who will show up at your house that day each week, whether you're in the mood or whether you feel like you have work or whether whatever. And they show up, you've already paid the money. So you are going to go out and that's your commitment device. Because once you are out or when we are out,

even though I'm like, Oh my God, do we have time for this? Once we're out, it's like, Oh, this was so important. Yeah. Um, so that's an example of standing babysitter. Good. I'd like to, I wanted you to say that because I think that's important. I think you've got to like put things in front of you to make, like sometimes you don't, you know, to make sure you actually do these things. Right. Like, right. So that's why I wanted you to say that. But, um, anyway, so thank you. This was great. So how do people find you? And the book is called happier hour. And

And, uh, it's definitely worth picking up and reading. And Cassie, if people want to know more or want to find you, what's the best thing if they're not a student at Anderson? I mean, my website, www.cassiemholmes.com. Um, I,

I follow what I teach and I'm not on social media. Good for you. I am on LinkedIn, but you won't find me in other places. But my website does have shares about my research and then the book, Happier Hour, How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most pulls all of these learnings together. And so that's...

That's how folks can learn more. Thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast. This was great. Thanks. This was fun. Thank you.