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The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new Toyota truck. Like a rugged, half-ton Tundra, workhorse by nature, powerhouse by design, the Tundra combines raw capability with premium comfort and advanced tech to fuel your wildest adventures. And with the available i-Force Max Hybrid Powertrain, you can take electrifying horsepower farther
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So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places. Ever find yourself holding back on travel plans because you're afraid of the language gap?
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Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Is there anything you would want to tell her or anyone else? No. Did you burn her body? No, I have no idea about that. You don't know how she ended up burned? No.
Hi, this is Sword and Scale, Season 11, Episode 261, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Thank you for joining us this week. We have a lot to tell you about. First of all, Sword and Scale television premieres very, very, very soon, if not already. You can watch right now if you go to swordandscale.com and click watch now. It's not that hard.
But just so that you know, we are still making lots of improvements to the app and the website. Lots of little things, lots of things you've been telling us over and over again. You know, one of the things we'd like to encourage you to do is to read more. I think it's important for all of us to become more educated and read more. So read the comments before you comment because someone else may have had, oh, I don't know, exactly the same thought two seconds ago and already expressed it for all to read.
Listen, I'm cranky. I haven't had my coffee yet. Anyway, have you heard of the store? Go on over to store.swordskill.com. We've got all kinds of new merch, all kinds of cool shit. Check it out if you like murdery stuff with our logo on it. I don't know. Why am I even still doing this? Just go ahead and do whatever you want all the time. I don't care. Whatever you want, really. That's all I got to say. Enjoy the show.
The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new Toyota truck. Like a rugged, half-ton Tundra, workhorse by nature, powerhouse by design, the Tundra combines raw capability with premium comfort and advanced tech to fuel your wildest adventures. And with the available i-Force Max Hybrid Powertrain, you can take electrifying horsepower farther
than ever before. Or check out the fully redesigned Tacoma, delivering trail-dominating power and captivating style. The new Tacoma was born to make your off-roading dreams come true. And with the new available tech, this legendary truck is getting even better. And when you buy a Toyota truck, you buy Toyota dependability, meaning your truck will hold its value long into the future.
So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places. You owe me. You owe me for the hundreds of true crime stories that I've told you over the years. You owe me for the many hours of entertainment that I've graciously given you. You owe me for all the hard work I've put into this show.
You owe me. And don't you forget it. I'm sorry, did that sound a little entitled? If my sense of entitlement strikes you as unflattering, that's because it is. It's quite ugly, in fact. A sense of entitlement is a narcissistic personality trait, and it's pretty obvious. Most people don't like it when someone insists that they deserve something when they're
In reality, they don't deserve a damn thing. I was kidding, by the way. You don't owe me anything. No one owes anyone anything, generally speaking. But I can admit and acknowledge that I do carry around a little bit of entitlement. Most of us do. But we either consciously or subconsciously recognize that it's an unflattering characteristic. So we work on it.
We try to suppress it, or at the very least, we try to keep it in check. There are some, however, that have no problem letting their extreme sense of entitlement shine. If you've ever watched any number of Karen videos online, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. Some of you may have even caught the Karen bug, you know, the ones perpetually complaining
about what they're not getting from a $10 optional podcast subscription in the comment section of every single episode, you know who you are. Those of us with a slightly more acute sense of self-awareness wonder what makes people act this way. An extreme sense of entitlement can be developed in a number of ways. One of the most common ways usually relates to how a person
has been treated in the past. When someone or a group of people are routinely given what they want, they can develop the idea that their wants are just owed to them. It's common for children to have this mentality, but they usually grow out of it and begin to understand that life is about give and take. They learn that in general, if you want something, you have to earn it.
Unfortunately, not everyone develops this understanding. Some full-ass grown adults hold firm to their sense of entitlement. And when things that were once handed to them are suddenly taken away, well, that's when they lash out. They get angry. They might scream or yell. They might get violent. In fact, they might even commit murder. On the night of January 26th, 2018,
A middle-aged woman in Rio Rancho, New Mexico was driving home from work. Her commute was one that she had made many times before, but on this particular night she noticed something unusual. While driving along a somewhat well-traveled back road, she saw a smoldering pile of, well, something that was laid out on the road in front of her. The pile let off a small cloud of black smoke.
and its glowing orange embers suggested that whatever she was looking at was very recently on fire. I was coming home. I could see it off to the side, but I couldn't see what it was at all. When you drove through, were you able to drive around it, or did you hit it? I drove around it. No, I drove around it. I couldn't see anything because it was dark. My headlights aren't very good, but I wasn't going to get out of my car either.
I'm not stupid. So I came home and we talked about it for a while. So I went to bed, woke up at about 10, 10ish, and said, I'm going to go up and take a look. The woman drove home. She told her roommates about what she saw and then she went to bed. The next morning, she decided she wanted to take a closer look at what she had seen the night before. I went up there.
Now that the sun was up, the woman returned to what she saw during her commute home, and she couldn't believe what she'd discovered.
Lying on a burned mattress was a severely mangled and charred human corpse. Actually, as I was walking away, I could see the restraints. The restraints? Yeah. The person was bound with metal, with wire or something. The arm was broken. I could see that. The mouth looked round, like forming an O. The right foot was missing. It looked like it had been cut off from about here, maybe even higher.
This woman had a good question. Why would someone dump a body in a well-traveled road?
Along with that question, the cops in Rio Rancho were wondering a few other things too. Like, who was this dead person? How did they die? And more importantly, who put them there?
Meanwhile, about 20 miles south, a concerned man in Albuquerque was making a phone call to 911. Albuquerque Police, Operator 3461, how can I help you? Yes, this is Kerry Gendert. I have called about possibly making a recent person's report. I'm at my sister's house and she's not here in the notice. Well, I guess we can send an officer or something. What's the address where you're at, sir?
62-year-old Harry Gander lived in Albuquerque and for the last day or two he'd been trying to reach his sister Marilyn who he knew was pretty reliable when it came to returning his phone calls. Okay and I'm sorry can I get your name one more time? Harry Gander, son of his brother. And what's your sister's name? Marilyn Gander. Okay how old is she? She's 63. Okay.
Okay.
The vehicle is here, so unless you want with a friend of hers. Okay. If she was a friend of hers, she should have called me unless she was in on my mother then. Okay. Well, just wait right there. I'm going to get an officer to make contact with you shortly. 65-year-old Marilyn Gander worked for the U.S. Postal Service for over 30 years. And according to her co-workers, she was very dependable, a colleague that was a joy and
to be around. "Working with Marilyn was just relaxing. That's the best word to use is that she put ease to you. She knew things didn't get to her. She didn't sweat the small stuff." When asked, Harry described his sister as a great person. In fact, he told police that Marilyn was the perfect sister and that she was always there for him when he needed her. Harry reported Marilyn missing but unfortunately he couldn't direct the Albuquerque police towards many leads.
Marilyn Gander lived alone and was a solitary person. She mostly kept to herself and didn't have a lot of close friends. She did, however, have a best friend. Her name was Nancy Robinson. Nancy worked alongside Marilyn at the post office for a long time, and over the years, the two of them had become quite close. How did you know Marilyn? We worked together at the post office, same station.
I think it was probably 12, 15 years. 12, 15 years, that's right. And then we were friends outside of that. Went to Bible study together. Spent time with her and her husband. Birthdays, you know, that kind of stuff. Okay. Marilyn's husband passed away long before Marilyn went missing. Several years later, tragedy struck again when Marilyn lost her only child. Marilyn's 42-year-old son, Ryan Bickett, died.
killed himself while playing Russian Roulette. If for some reason you're not familiar, Russian Roulette is a deadly game of chance where a person places one bullet in a revolver, spins the cylinder, points the muzzle at their head, and pulls the trigger. You basically have a 1 in 6 chance of killing yourself.
In case this isn't obvious, people usually don't play this game unless they're severely suicidal. In Ryan's case, he was both severely suicidal and extremely unlucky. How did Ryan's death affect her? She was heartbroken, of course. It's her only child. She had, you know, like most mothers, she
cremated remains that she wore around her neck. She paid extra money to bring the report to her house. She had all the pictures. She would wake up every morning at a certain time when he lost his life. It was a big deal. As expected, the death of her son was devastating for Marilyn. But the silver lining was that she still had her daughter-in-law and Ryan's wife.
Ryan's wife was 43-year-old Alyssa Bickett. And Marilyn also had a grandchild in Ryan's son. He was 20-year-old Drake Bickett. Marilyn had a big heart. Her interaction with Drake that I would see, she was trying to be grandmotherly with him. Same thing with Alyssa. She looked at Alyssa as her daughter. She treated her like her daughter.
Much like Harry Gander, when Marilyn went missing, Nancy was quick to notice that Marilyn wasn't responding to phone calls or text messages, which was quite out of character. And so when did you start becoming concerned? Honestly, I started getting a real bad vibe on Thursday night. I called her and then I called her later. I couldn't get a hold of her. And the feeling got worse, worse and worse.
And you would text, when you text Marilyn or call Marilyn, you get pretty much an immediate response. Called her on Saturday and said, did you go back to work? I haven't heard from you. I'm concerned, et cetera, et cetera. And then by the time Sunday morning came, when I woke up, six or seven o'clock, I left the house in my pajamas, in my robe, and said, Marilyn, I'm coming for you. Because you just knew something was wrong.
After Marilyn was reported missing, the first place that police went looking was Marilyn's home. The responding officers discovered that Marilyn's back door was left wide open, so they went inside, but there was no sign of Marilyn. The house seemed undisturbed, but the police did notice something strange. Marilyn's house keys were left hanging on her front doorknob. Who leaves their house without their keys?
The responding officers knew something was wrong, so they decided to visit another house that Marilyn owned. It was a neighboring property that Marilyn had been renting out to her daughter-in-law, Alyssa. When police arrived at this second house, they spoke to Alyssa, who was in the process of moving out and was half expecting Marilyn to pop on by. I expected her to come by, but I didn't think anything of it. I thought, you know, she probably just...
"Right." "Like, sometimes she gets mad and won't even talk to me, so..." Marilyn's brother, her best friend, and her daughter-in-law were almost always in regular contact with Marilyn. But the three of them told police that they didn't know where Marilyn was. She had seemingly just vanished. Meanwhile, back in Rio Rancho, a middle-aged woman discovered a mangled and smoldering corpse on a back road.
After she told roommates about what she found, one of those roommates called 911. Sanibel County 911, what is the exact location of your emergency? Um, out here in Encino and Northern, we think we found a body out here. It's in a road and somebody had put it on like a mattress or something and burned it and...
And so it's a mattress with something burned on the top of it? Yeah, and it looks like it has bones in it, and you can see intestines and guts, and I don't know. And it looks like it has a head and hands and arms in it. I don't know. Okay, and are you going to be around for officers? Well, I can. I can walk back up there.
After the police arrived on the scene, they quickly confirmed there was indeed a charred human corpse lying on a road in Rio Rancho, after which they promptly questioned the people that reported it. When you got there, what did you... There was smoke. You could tell something had been burning, and I was like, what the fuck is that? And he goes, I think it's a body. Okay, did you...
Needless to say, finding a dead body is a terrible experience for anyone to have, but
In this particular case, and because of the horrific state of the body, it was especially traumatic for everyone that happened to witness it. Tell me again what you observed. A bad, bad thing. It was really bad. I know, man, but it's important for me to understand what you saw. Right. That person suffered bad, man. They suffered bad. What makes you think it's a person?
Within a day, the news of this dead body
reached the Albuquerque area and the detectives that were searching for Marilyn. Soon after, the body was identified through dental records and confirmed to be 65-year-old postal worker Marilyn Ganderd. Following that revelation, Albuquerque homicide detectives went to work and they expected to find out who had brutally murdered this poor woman who had dumped the body.
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In January of 2018, the mangled and smoldering corpse of 65-year-old postal worker Marilyn Ganderd was found on a back road in Rio Rancho, New Mexico.
After the body was collected and an autopsy was performed, the medical examiner and homicide detectives were able to determine what likely happened to Marilyn. Someone had brutally beaten and stabbed her to death. After she was dead, the killer or someone else drove the body to Rio Rancho, dropped a mattress on the road, and put Marilyn on top of it.
Then, they doused her in gasoline and lit the body on fire before driving away. The medical examiner also determined that there were no signs of sexual trauma to Marilyn's body, but there were ligature marks on her wrists and ankles, so Marilyn was likely bound either before or during the murder.
When detectives began investigating this homicide, one of the first things they tried to figure out was where the murder happened. They examined Marilyn's house but didn't find any signs of a struggle or any significant traces of blood. They quickly determined that the murder probably didn't happen at Marilyn's home. Then they set their eyes on another property that Marilyn owed.
It was a neighboring house that Marilyn had been renting out to her daughter-in-law, Alyssa Bickett, who happened to be in the process of moving out.
when Marilyn was first reported missing. My name is Detective Ronald Albuquerque. Yeah, how are you? Good, you mind if I step out for a moment? Yeah, I'm fine. First off, we're investigating the disappearance of your mom. It's my mother-in-law. We actually have to secure the house. Okay, I'm just trying to get all my stuff out. So unfortunately, I can't let you go back inside. I need to get, I have things in there. Unfortunately, I can't. I literally have everything that I'm taking to my hotel and stuff, my purse, everything. I understand that.
43-year-old Alyssa Bickett wasn't overly thrilled that a bunch of cops were about to be invading her home and rifling through all her stuff.
But given that she had no other options, she relented and a search warrant was executed on her home. After that was being done, Alyssa was informed that Marilyn's body had been found and Alyssa was taken to the local police station for questioning. Do you know why you're here today? They told me because Marilyn died. I didn't know she died. Okay. So you said that you had heard she was dead.
Okay, how did you hear that? So it is true that Marilyn is deceased. Okay, how do you know Marilyn? Mother-in-law. Okay. Okay, and when he passed away, you were still married to him? Okay. Do you and her son, what's her son's name? Ryan. Ryan.
Again, this wasn't the first horrific tragedy that had struck this family. Back in 2014, Alyssa's husband and Marilyn's son, Ryan Bickett, killed himself while playing Russian roulette. According to Alyssa, that suicide happened...
right in front of her. How was your relationship with Marilyn prior to that, before Ryan committed suicide? It was okay. And you were married 23 years? Wow, okay. And your relationship was okay with Marilyn? Yeah. Okay. And since Ryan has passed away, how was your relationship with Marilyn? It was okay, just off and on. I just really didn't talk to her very much. After the death? Mm-hmm. Okay. Any...
Alyssa claimed that Marilyn had some resentment towards her, and Marilyn seemed to believe that if Alyssa wasn't in Ryan's life, Ryan wouldn't have killed himself.
Despite this, Marilyn allowed Alyssa to remain living in the same house that she and Ryan shared, which was owned by Marilyn. The only condition that Marilyn had was a reasonable one. She expected that Alyssa pay rent. Unfortunately, Alyssa didn't live up to her end of the deal, so Marilyn began the process of evicting Alyssa.
When Marilyn was first reported missing and responding officers went to the house that Alyssa was renting, Alyssa didn't mention anything about being evicted. She only told them that she was moving out. For detectives, that was...
Kind of a big red flag. And I didn't work for six years when he was alive. He didn't let me work. So, you know, I got a job right away, but I sometimes, you know, I wouldn't have a job at some time. So, you know. But I tried to talk to her and she kind of worked with me. She said she was going to evade me and I said, OK, you know, whatever. OK, who lives at the 4715 Taylor Ridge with you? It was Annie Raelle.
Alyssa shared the house she was renting with two people.
her 20-year-old son Drake, and her close friend, 28-year-old Annie Rael. So how did you end up meeting Alyssa? A little bit of hours. How long ago was that? Maybe like, it's been over a year, a little over a year probably. And then how did you end up moving in with her? Um, I went through the divorce and she knew I was unhappy and she kind of offered and I accepted.
Alyssa and Annie met in 2017 and became friends. Before long, Alyssa offered to let Annie live with her in the house she was renting. While there, Annie met and occasionally interacted with Marilyn Ganderd. I don't know if it was like Thanksgiving or Christmas or one of those things.
According to Annie, the relationship between Alyssa and Marilyn was, on occasion, cordial. But on other occasions, it was clear that the relationship was breaking down. Mostly because Alyssa wasn't paying rent.
And because, you know, she wasn't even taking good care of the house anyway. So it seems like Marilyn and Alyssa are having a dispute over the conditions of the house, maybe some payments, just not really getting along about stuff. Right. Okay. But I went out there while she was getting ready to leave and just talked to her and was like, Alyssa's trying, she's...
While speaking with detectives, Alyssa and Annie seemed to downplay the issues that Marilyn was having with Alyssa in the house. But according to Marilyn's best friend Nancy,
Marilyn was at her wits' end. She had just had it with Alyssa. She loved Alyssa. Over the years, she did everything she possibly could for Alyssa. And it was actually Alyssa who was angry with Marilyn. Marilyn supported them entirely for many years, as opposed to her own self. And then after Ryan died, there was a period of time where...
She wanted the whole situation to change. She was hoping that Alyssa could begin to pay her some rent, that kids could work, something could happen so that they could still live there and she wouldn't have to be able to support them entirely. Again, Marilyn's expectations were entirely reasonable. If Alyssa was going to live in Marilyn's house, she would have to pay rent.
But apparently, Alyssa just didn't like that arrangement. Alyssa's response was that to, oh, okay, now because Ryan's not here, you're not going to take care of us anymore. She said, yeah, I can't. You know, you have to have some income. You have to help me here. I want to retire. So she attempted to make that work.
with them and Alyssa was very unhappy with the fact that she was now going to have to pay some rent. She'd tell me about the bits and pieces of money that would come in and it never came in like it was supposed to. And there were promises. Despite her objections, Alyssa did agree to pay rent, but she never actually lived up to the promise to do so.
On top of that, Alyssa did a pretty poor job of taking care of the house. It looked, when I was there, it looked as if somebody got angry or drunk. This is my impression. Drunk, angry, whatever, and just trashed it. You know, people do stuff like that. They put their fists through the wall. They break things. And it didn't look like it had been basically kept up anyway.
Finally, after giving Alyssa several opportunities to turn things around, Marilyn decided that Alyssa had run out of chances and began the process of having Alyssa evicted. Marilyn's long-term plan was to eventually...
sell the house she had resigned herself that she was done with the whole thing tired of putting that emotion out there tired of footing the bill she was done she was going to sell this house because she wanted to retire we work hard at the post office so she was just kind of had been done with it after hearing about the drama and conflict between alyssa and marilyn
Albuquerque homicide detectives felt like they had a plausible motive for murder. So, they questioned Alyssa about the eviction. So, am I correct by saying that eventually you guys were evicted? Yes. Okay. How did that come about? Because we weren't paying. She just said, and I didn't go to court. I just, because I knew...
I didn't want to argue. There was nothing to argue about. Did she actually take it to court, like file it in court? Oh, okay. And you did show up. I just didn't show up, you know, because I knew what's there to argue. I mean, what am I going to go say? I know I'm not paying rent, you know? Right. So just let it go. And, you know, I mean, I, but I did ask her, you know, maybe we can work this out still. And she said, no. And I said, okay, you know. How did you feel about
According to Alyssa, the eviction process was as cordial as it could possibly be.
And Alyssa's friend Annie echoed that claim. Alyssa and Annie admitted that they weren't happy about being evicted, but they claimed that they accepted it.
and were willing to just move on. So, they began the process of moving out, but
That process wasn't easy because Marilyn changed the locks on the doors. How are you guys now getting back into the house? Marilyn would come and meet us there. Oh, okay. She had the key? Yeah. Oh, okay. She changed the locks or whatever. Okay, so the locks are changed. Marilyn has the key. Yeah. And then when you guys are packing your stuff, Marilyn would come and meet us. Yeah, she would come, drink beer, come inside, talk. So you thought everything was going okay with you guys? Yes. Okay. Yeah.
The court filings and eviction notice granted Alyssa three days to move her things out of the house. Out of the concern that the house might be further damaged, Marilyn decided that Alyssa could only move her stuff out while Marilyn was there. She wanted to oversee what was going on so they wouldn't cause a bunch of damage to this house that she needed to sell eventually.
So she decided to take off work so that she could watch everything and make sure the move out process was, you know, going well. Yet, according to Alyssa, Marilyn eventually decided that she didn't need to keep an eye on things for some reason. And so, Marilyn, you know, we were getting along and she was like, you know, I noticed you got, you know, I said, I'm not going to get this done today. And I know, you know, she's like, yeah, it's a few days or whatever.
Alyssa claimed that on the day before Marilyn was reported missing,
Marilyn gave her the new house keys so that Alyssa could finish moving out. I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would give someone that they are actually in the process of evicting a set of the new house keys to the new locks they've just installed. It kinda makes no sense whatsoever, but I'm sure you knew that already. Alyssa even had a text exchange with Marilyn to show detectives and back up this claim.
But again, Marilyn's friend Nancy contradicted what Alyssa told the police. When Nancy was shown the text messages between Alyssa and Marilyn, she knew it didn't make any sense. "Come get the key on Friday. That is so not Marilyn. That's somebody texting from Marilyn's phone." Needless to say, the story that Alyssa told police was pretty suspicious.
Why would Marilyn go through all the trouble of filing court paperwork, changing the locks, taking time off of work, and then just allow Alyssa to have free access to the house? It made zero sense. And because of that, the homicide detectives began to push back on Alyssa's story. Marilyn didn't...
Allow you guys in the house without her present? Yeah, at the beginning, yes. And? And it was because she thought we were going to damage the house. Okay. So it's just kind of odd to me that all of a sudden she would have a huge heart. She likes the weekend. And then she would go missing. Well, I don't know. Now all of a sudden you have the keys. Yes, because she gave it to me.
Not according to the friends that we spoke to, not according to Harry. They all stated that she was not going to allow you guys in that home without her presence. Okay, she discussed it. She discussed and said that she would. Naturally, Alyssa maintained that Marilyn had given her the house keys and permission to go into the house without being supervised. Unfortunately for her, as detectives began asking for details about how Alyssa got those house keys...
Her story started to... bullshit. Breakdown.
I messaged her on Saturday morning and said I'm on my way. It was about 9:00. I said I'll be there in about an hour. And I went and picked up the key. Okay. So I just went in and started packing and then Annie and Drake came and, you know, we're loading up and stuff. Okay. And her brother, Marilyn's brother Harry came. To the house on? Yeah, and asked if I had, on Saturday. Saturday, okay. And asked if I had seen Marilyn when the last time was. And I said about 10 this morning I went and picked up the key.
Alyssa claimed that the last time she saw Marilyn was on Saturday morning when Marilyn gave her the house keys. But police knew that couldn't be, because by Saturday morning, Marilyn was already dead. The woman who saw Marilyn's body on the back road in Rio Rancho had spotted it on Friday night during her commute home. Alyssa Bickett was either lying or she'd gotten her days mixed up.
Of course, she claimed the latter when her impossible story was pointed out to her. I mean, I'm confused. I don't want to talk anymore. I don't want to even be here. How come you're so upset right now? Because she's gone and I didn't know this, you know? And I'm sorry. It's like, and then I'm here being accused of I don't even know what.
We need to get down to the truth. And I mean, it's just because I can't think right now and it's not apparent. I probably will say things that I don't remember, you know? And I know Friday was the last time I did see her, but I've seen her in that robe. And I think I was just in my head fully making up that I saw her that morning. Okay, because I did see her Friday and that was the last time I saw her. Alyssa changed her story. Now, the last time she saw Marilyn was on Friday, not Saturday.
Okay, fair enough. Being questioned by the police about the death of a family member is a high-stress situation. It's entirely possible that Alyssa confused Friday for Saturday. But there was something else that Alyssa could not explain. Namely, the large amount of blood the cops found in her house. Would there be any reason that we will find Marilyn's blood in Annie's room?
I don't know. No, there would be no reason. I don't know.
Is there going to be any reason if we pull that carpet up in that house, is there going to be any of Marilyn's blood on the carpet underneath? I don't know. That should just be a yes or no answer. That's not a no. There shouldn't be any. Okay. Well, there is. Okay. So you're the renter of the home. You were the last person in the home. So that needs to be explained. I don't know. Why is there blood on the walls of that house, in the carpet, and in Annie's room? I don't know.
You have no answer? No. Doesn't that seem a little suspicious to you? Well, I don't know. I haven't done anything. And now she's missing and deceased. Well, I haven't done anything. I don't know of anybody doing anything, so we haven't done anything to her. Who cleaned up the blood in the hallway? You guys didn't do a very good job on the walls because there's still blood spatter on the walls. Very small, but she didn't do a very good job because we were able to locate it. Eventually, the detectives made things very clear for Alyssa.
They were trying to solve a murder case. It was a murder that almost certainly happened in the home where Alyssa was living. And they knew that Alyssa...
So you've told Detective Brown that the last time you saw her was on Saturday morning at 10? I lied because I wanted to see her that morning and I didn't. Okay. No, you're lying now because you know that we caught you in a lie. But I did nothing to her. I did nothing to her. Maybe you didn't, but you know you did. Nobody else said no, I don't. Well, she's deceased. I'm sorry. Okay. How are your kids going to feel when you put it to her?
After Alyssa was confronted with her lies and the blood in her house, she asked for a lawyer.
which effectively shut down this interview. But the cops weren't done asking questions. Next, they turned to Alyssa's son, Drake, who, having recently been evicted from his mom's home, was now living in a Days Inn hotel room with his girlfriend. Detectives met with Drake at the hotel and asked him about the last time he saw his grandmother. Drake explained that he last saw Marilyn the day before she was reported missing.
And when he saw her, she was parked outside his house as Annie and Alyssa were busy moving things out of the home. Annie and my mom and my grandma were there. And I just showed up with Nikki in the afternoon. I don't know exactly what time. I would say 1 p.m. 1 p.m. Me and Nikki go to the hotel because she says, hey, your mom and Annie need help moving stuff. And I was like, OK, well, then I'll go there. And then we drove there and then I go in to help them.
And then my mom was like, oh, your grandma's kicking us out. And I was like, oh, why? And she was like, because we don't have money for this place. And then I was like, okay, well, I'll go talk to her and then I'll help you guys move stuff out. So then I went out to the car and was like, yo, are you kicking us out or what? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, well, I'll help them get this stuff out. And then I'm staying in a hotel. I just wanted to let you know that. She was like, okay, bye. How did they make your mom feel? Oh, she was pretty upset. Yeah. She was really upset. Okay. What did she tell you?
According to Drake, after he helped his mom and Annie move a few things out, he left. As he was leaving, he saw that Marilyn was still parked outside the house. And then Friday, when you left, where was Grandma? Still there. Still there? Yeah, she was still there, and then we left. Where was her car? Parked out front.
And what did your mom and Annie do when you left? Did you talk to them? They were just, no, I was like, I'm leaving. And then they were like, okay, well, we got to leave soon too. We're going to put stuff in the storage and then we'll meet you at the hotel. And I was like, all right, I'll see you guys there. And then when did you see your mom and Annie again? Whenever we were at the hotel. Did they say anything to you about anything that happened? No.
As far as Drake knew, when he left the house that day, his mom, his grandma, and Annie were still there, and everyone was still alive and breathing. Sadly, detectives had some bad news for Drake.
So no telling you that, knowing that.
After Drake was made aware of the situation, detectives further explained that Alyssa's story just wasn't adding up.
In other words, it was looking like Drake's mom had something to do with the murder. Yeah, and I can tell you that mom's story isn't matching up with your story or Nikki's story. Okay. And with... Totally wrong. Yeah. Okay, is she okay? Your mom? Yeah, she's fine. She's being taken care of.
According to Drake, when he met back up with his mom and Annie, he didn't notice anything strange or suspicious. To him, aside from the fact that they had all just been evicted from their house and essentially had nowhere to live, everything seemed fine.
Essentially, Drake was either unwilling or unable to give the police any new information. But this wasn't the last time that Drake would speak to cops. During the second interview with the detective, Drake made a startling admission. Like, I'm going to tell you the honesty. My grandmother said, I'm too old. Will you please kill me?
Do you remember when she told you that? She told me like a couple days to several days as I stayed with her. I was there and then she would be like depressed, you know? So you're saying that at some point your grandma asked you to kill her? Like she was like, yeah, I get real tired at night and like I want to die, you know? So did you do that for her? Yeah.
At this point, detectives were extremely confident in their theory that Alyssa and Annie were involved in murdering Marilyn Gander. But now, Alyssa's 20-year-old son, Drake, was taking sole responsibility for it. Perhaps he was just trying to protect his mom from being charged with murder. No noble. After Drake made this admission, he was arrested. But the investigation didn't stop there.
The detectives remained determined to find out the truth. And eventually, that truth came out. It turned out that it wasn't just Alyssa that killed Marilyn and burned her body. It wasn't just Annie or Drake either. Marilyn Gander was murdered by all three of them.
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In June of 2018, 20-year-old Drake Bickett confessed to Albuquerque homicide detectives that he brutally murdered his own grandmother, 65-year-old Marilyn Ganderd. According to Drake,
His grandmother asked him to kill her, and he graciously carried out her wishes, just like any decent grandson would. So I was just like, respect, like, because I can understand. I don't know if you guys can understand, but I expect you guys to be able to understand. If an old woman is like old and having to work for her children, right? Then I'll do what she wants, you know? Like...
So how did you do it? Just essentially, that's it. That's all the information without a lawyer or a public defender I'd like to share. Okay, so you don't want to talk anymore after that? Mm-mm. Okay. After Drake gave his confession, he was carted off to jail and did the standard perp walk. This gave the local media an opportunity to put a camera and microphone.
and his face. Did you have anything to do with her death? Oh, yeah, she asked me to kill her, so I did. She asked you to kill her? Yeah. How did you do it? I'm not going to, I don't know. You don't know how you killed her? But she mentioned that she was old, tired, so. So she wanted you to kill her. Did you burn her body? No, I have no idea about that. You don't know how she ended up burned? No. Is there anything you would want to tell her or anyone else? No. Okay. Drake told the police and the media that he murdered his grandmother.
but he was unwilling to provide any details about how he did it or how her body ended up being burned on a back road in Rio Rancho. Needless to say, the police knew that there was a lot more to this story. In fact, they didn't buy Drake's claim that Marilyn wanted to be killed. They believed that Drake's mom, Melissa Bickett, and her friend, Annie Real, were responsible for the murder.
When Alyssa was questioned and the detectives pointed out inconsistencies in her story, she promptly asked for an attorney and her interview came to an end. Annie, on the other hand, did a lot more talking. I feel like you guys are doing this because you feel like we did something to Marilyn. Yes, we are investigating a homicide. Yeah, okay. And that just blows my mind. Marilyn was murdered. Without a doubt, we know that. Okay. Evidence has been collected. Okay.
A lot of it is pointing towards you and Alyssa. So you have one opportunity to give us your side of the story. I am telling you, we didn't do anything. I'm telling you that. One of the main issues with Alyssa and Annie's denials was that Marilyn did not give them permission to enter the house they were being evicted from unless Marilyn was there.
Yet Alyssa had the keys to the house when the cops first questioned her. She was there, alone, without Marilyn. You have not been permitted into that residence without Marilyn being there, is that correct? Me specifically, I don't. Anybody. She's the only one that has the key. Alyssa has the keys.
Right. So when did she obtain those keys? I don't know when she got the keys. I don't know that. So Alyssa told you she has the keys, you said. Alyssa said she got the keys. She talked to Marilyn. She said that Marilyn is giving us more time. That's what I was told and I don't care to ask questions.
You don't think it's important? No, all that's important is that we need to get their stuff out and clean the house. That's what's important to me. The cops knew or at least strongly suspected that Annie was lying and
Perhaps the most telling thing about her interview was that she clearly wasn't taking the situation seriously. Don't talk to me like that. You know what? Don't talk to me like that. I'm stupid. I haven't treated you like you're stupid. I'm getting a very bad...
Like, cause I'm getting upset that you expect me not to lie to you, but you're going to sit over there and lie to me. I don't appreciate that you feel that way because I'm explaining to you my situation. I don't know. I don't know what to date. Do you realize you're looking at being charged with a homicide?
Does that not compute with you? And I'm trying my hardest to give you the opportunity to get out of that. I get it. I get it. Okay? You obviously don't. Okay. You're sitting here smiling and laughing. I'm not laughing because I know that we're going to be out of this fine because we have done nothing wrong here. Annie feigned confidence, but the confidence was slowly broken down as detectives started introducing physical evidence into the conversation.
Annie owned and drove a large pickup truck, which was perfect for transporting a dead body from Albuquerque to Rio Rancho. As coincidence would have it, surveillance cameras captured Annie's truck driving through Rio Rancho around the same time,
that Marilyn's body would have been dumped there. Do you like to off-road? No. Because you have a nice truck. That truck, they literally told me not to drive on the highway. So why, well, but you can go off-road out there and there's trails and there's roads and there's dirt roads. I don't think we're doing that because that's my only, I don't do that. So why did you guys go out there then?
We went to Walmart. What are you asking me? Why did we go out where? Okay, so your truck went beyond... We came back to the house. Okay, your truck went beyond Walmart and you guys went west. What the... You went west of Unser for something. Do you remember? No. No.
Because Annie's truck was spotted near where Marilyn's body was found, the cops decided to search it. And Annie seemed pretty confident that they wouldn't find anything incriminating. But we are going to process the vehicle for any kind of evidence inside the vehicle. Okay. Is there going to be any reason that Marilyn's DNA is going to be inside that vehicle? No.
Unsurprisingly, the police did find Marilyn's DNA in the bed of Annie's truck, along with a few other things. Court documents show five days later, investigators find blood in the bed of that truck, along with Marilyn's purse, medications, pants, and keys to her car. Obviously, Alyssa and Annie weren't criminal masterminds. Jesus, these people couldn't even figure out how to pay their fucking rent.
They committed this murder and then did an absolutely horrible job of covering it up. Not only did the cops find Marilyn's blood in the back of Annie's truck, but they also found a whole bunch of Marilyn's blood in Annie's bedroom. Is there going to be any reason that a large amount of blood of Marilyn's is going to be in that house? Sorry. Okay. And if we do locate a lot? Well, I just...
Why would you locate any blood? - Okay, specifically maybe in your bedroom? Okay. And when we do, 'cause we have, what's gonna be the answer then? - Same. - You don't know. - We've been together. - Just because you've been together doesn't mean you can't commit a crime together. - Right.
There's blood in your room, okay? How did it get there? I don't know. Okay. I've never bled in my room. Oh, no, that's a lot. Yeah. I just, I guess I expect people to believe me easy, but we are moving out of that place. We're trying to do it in peace. We're not doing wrong here. You guys do what you need to do. Okay.
When faced with the facts, Annie just denied everything, which wasn't exactly a sound strategy. The physical evidence was just overwhelming, and detectives made that very clear. Unfortunately, all the evidence is pointing towards you. I mean, if that's how it is, I don't know what else to say. I can't, I'm not going to say anything.
that I seen something and I didn't, or I was a part of something and I wasn't. - There's, I mean, there's, if you didn't do something wrong, then you know what happened and you saw it, and you know who did, and you saw part of this. There's absolutely no way, there's no way, Annie, that you don't know what happened, and that you didn't see someone cleaning.
cleaning up blood. No. Yes. And then your truck. I did not see that. Honey, your truck was, your truck, you were on traffic cameras where we found the body. Like, I feel like. So we need to explain it. Well, I don't, I can't because I don't, I didn't see anything. If I'm going to feel this way that you guys are trying to switch it up on me, I'm not going to even talk at this point because I'm
Despite the evidence, Annie denied any involvement with the murder. But in the end, it didn't matter. The cops had more than enough to put both Annie and Alyssa behind bars. And they started investigating.
with Alyssa.
I didn't do it, so... Okay, well, that's what the arrest warrant is for. Okay? Do you have any questions for me at this point? I need to speak to somebody. A lawyer. In May of 2018, Alyssa Bickett was officially arrested and charged with the murder of Marilyn Gander. A short time later, detectives also formally charged her friend, Annie Rael. So, do you know why you're here today?
Months later, and perhaps after learning the full extent of the potential consequences they were facing,
Both Alyssa and Annie decided to confess, though their respective stories didn't quite match up. According to Alyssa, Annie was the primary aggressor and the one that set Marilyn's murder into motion.
So Marilyn, you know, she's sitting in her car and then she was coming in because she needed to use the restroom. It's like, look at my mom. This is our house. Can't we just stay here one more night in our own beds? And she said no. And so he was crying and he left out the back door. I stayed in my room. And at that point, I did hear Marilyn yell. And I went out there.
And Annie's on her back. She's on the ground. So Marilyn's on the ground and Annie's on top. Oh, she has her knee in her back. Okay. I tied up her hands and legs and I helped her put this...
Alyssa explained that during an argument with Marilyn about the rent money and eviction, Annie unexpectedly attacked her.
Then, Alyssa and Annie beat, stabbed, and suffocated Marilyn to death. After she was dead, they loaded her body into the back of Annie's truck and drove north toward Rio Rancho. Alyssa admitted that after they stopped on a somewhat desolate back road, they unloaded a mattress and placed Marilyn's body on top of it. Then, Alyssa poured gasoline on the body
and lit it on fire. For detectives, Alyssa's version of events somewhat aligned with what they believed happened. This is just my opinion. I think that the argument ensued over the rent or whatever and frustration started. And it just happened. It wasn't planned. It wasn't intentional. Something happened. And whether it was Drake or whether it was...
I actually thought it was you. But whomever, oh shit, look what we just did. It got out of control. Now we need to get rid of the body. The detectives believed that the murder was not planned and that it happened in a moment of desperation and anger. A moment where you lose control of your emotions. A moment where you're faced with
the weight of the world on your shoulders and you just snap and do something really, really, really stupid. And now there's even more consequences facing you. There's even more problems ahead unless you eliminate what you just did. Unless you erase it. Unless you erase this person you've assaulted. It can happen so very quickly and lives are changed forever.
It's an incredible story, but it's too bad that it's all bullshit. According to Annie, that is. You see, when Annie decided to confess, she revealed that the murder was, in fact, premeditated. And then when Drake got there, we all were in Alyssa's room getting high. That's pretty much when Alyssa, like...
She had brought it up before about killing Marilyn. I still didn't think we were going to do it. And Marilyn was coming in. Drake was like, can you just let us stay? Look at my mom happy. She was like, no, no.
Alyssa looked at me and Drake and nodded and I looked at Drake and he started like walking behind Marilyn and I got Marilyn and from behind and took her down. Annie explained that after she took Marilyn to the ground, Alyssa and her son Drake helped to tie Marilyn up. Then they wrapped a plastic bag over Marilyn's head and
beat her with a baseball bat, and stabbed her to death. One major difference in Alyssa's and Annie's stories involved Drake. According to Alyssa, Drake left the house before the murder happened. But in Annie's version, Annie who, you know, probably doesn't give a shit about Drake, Drake was the one that finished Marilyn off by slitting her throat. Like mother, like son, I guess.
The son doesn't fall far from the murderous mother tree or something like that. I don't know. Maybe that should be a shirt. Anyway, ultimately, the detectives determined that Annie's confession was a more accurate telling of the events and that Alyssa was probably trying to protect her son from a murder conviction. She was unsuccessful in that pursuit. After detectives finalized their investigation and handed things off to prosecutors, the
Drake, Alyssa, and Annie all faced murder charges. All three of them decided not to take their respective cases to trial and they all pled guilty. Alyssa was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Drake got 26 and Annie was given a reduced sentence of 12 for her willingness to cooperate. You could say that justice has been served, but for Marilyn's friends and family, it
and specifically for her brother, that justice comes as a small consolation. Harry Gandert continues to live with the tragic loss of his sister and the realization that Marilyn's final moments alive must have been absolutely horrifying and incredibly painful. She was just a very kind person, and she didn't deserve anything like this.
It's a useless thing that my sister was killed. I mean, that was for no reason, actually. Marilyn Gander was so brutally murdered by these three people that she knew that she was kind to in many ways that they probably didn't deserve. The mastermind behind that murder, if you can even call her that, was Marilyn's daughter-in-law, Alyssa Bickett.
For most of her life, Alyssa was given a place to live for free. Her husband and mother-in-law provided that for her. But when the time came for Alyssa to provide for herself, she lashed out and decided to do something truly horrific. Alyssa felt entitled. She felt that Marilyn owed her a home. When Marilyn refused to give Alyssa what she wanted, Alyssa planned and carried out
her murder. And perhaps worst of all, she made her own son kill his grandmother. And now he's spending decades of his life behind bars. Ironically, Alyssa was able to avoid paying rent. And you and I are the beneficiary of that privilege. Beneficiary or benefactor? What's the right word for that? Anyway, Alyssa has a, you know,
Respectable, decent place to live. Now, still, for the rest of her life, she still doesn't have to pay rent. For the next 30 years, she'll have a free roof over her head. She'll be given three square meals a day, and she won't have to pay for any of it. Though, I doubt her accommodations are what she was hoping for. Who knows? I mean, I hear prisons these days have free basic cable and even some restricted internet access.
Doesn't sound quite that bad compared to the 9 to 5 cubicle life, if you ask me. If Alyssa's fate tells us anything, gives us any sort of lesson whatsoever, it proves that a sense of entitlement can be a very dangerous thing. As much as we might not want to admit it, there is at least a little bit of entitlement in all of us.
So try and be sure to keep yours in check. And remember that nobody owes you anything. Not your mother-in-law, not some true crime podcast producer. Nobody owes you a fucking thing. So if you want something, you're going to have to do the work. You're going to have to go out there and just like in the old days, you're going to have to earn it.
Oh, one more thing before we go. If you want to get any of the snazzy new merch over at store.sortandscale.com, make sure you go to sortandscale.com first, log in with your Plus membership, and click the Store link on the top of the page so that you get your discount. It will be automatically applied at checkout as long as you click that link. All right, that's going to do it. Until next time, stay safe. ♪
Hey there, this is Jenny from Tacoma. This is a message for Gertie. Gertie, you are a goddess. I am appalled to find that people are giving you trouble. For all of you out there who are and you know who you are, this is a community of frassholes, not assholes. So please give Gertie a break and praise her. All right, thanks for everything. Have a good day. ♪♪♪
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