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Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. How did you know that? Uber. With a knife. Are they there too? Um, not anymore. Welcome to Season 10, Episode 243 of Sword and Scale. A show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. ♪
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The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new Toyota truck. Like a rugged, half-ton Tundra, workhorse by nature, powerhouse by design, the Tundra combines raw capability with premium comfort and advanced tech to fuel your wildest adventures. And with the available i-Force Max Hybrid Powertrain, you can take electrifying horsepower farther
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So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places. These days, the world is full of images that attempt to pull on our heartstrings if there are any left. Hey, guilty as charged. We do it here all the time.
I like to think we do it for not so much a nefarious purpose as to provide you with entertainment. I'm thinking more along the lines of something that asks you for money but doesn't really provide anything in return. You know, charity. Think more along the lines of those ASPCA commercials with Sarah McLachlan singing over images of sad puppy faces begging you to donate.
I mean, who doesn't want to watch that at 3 o'clock in the morning? And it doesn't just stop with our televisions or podcast appliances either. We see it everywhere. Like the single mother sitting outside of Costco with her three dirty looking children and a sign that says, "Very hungry. Anything helps. God loves you." And then maybe, you know, because you're a psychopath like me, you decide to sit there in your car, parked, and watch for a little while.
You know, just to see what happens. And then about an hour later, you see that she's actually hit her daily goal, or maybe she's late for her Pilates class. So she packs up all her cardboard signs and her plastic container that previously held cheese puffs, which she's repurposed for collecting spare change, or more preferably dollar bills, y'all.
and then shuffles her three dirty kids into her late model Mercedes Benz, gifted to her by her sugar daddy ex-husband who also sends her a pretty decently sized check every month as required by state law. She wipes off the dirt or makeup from her children and off they go, back to their beautiful middle class home in suburban America after a hard day of begging.
You know, sometimes you find yourself handing over a $10 bill just because it's easier and less stressful to our psyche than just avoiding eye contact. While it's true you may never know the true details of everyone's circumstances, it is important to try and make some sort of logical assessment. There are numerous quotes about giving to the needy without a second thought. These bleeding heart liberals really don't want you to think about anything. Just hand over the change.
And while these are niceties, the sentiment is idealistic and arguably dangerous. Here's a secret. Some people cannot be helped. Some do not want to be helped. A person who appears to be in need may just be playing the part of a harmless victim to ensnare someone naive and selfless into their web. It happens all the time.
In fact, that was Ted Bundy's favorite tactic. This way of thinking may seem a little harsh to some, particularly if you live in Southern California. But self-preservation is crucial. How can we ever help anyone who truly needs it if we aren't considering our own safety first? Those with the biggest hearts have got to be extra cautious with whom they lend a hand. After all,
Salt and sugar look the same, and so does cyanide. Vancouver, Washington, and Portland, Oregon are a little bit like sister cities. With less than a 20-minute drive between the two, they have similar personalities. Bro, where'd you get that hat? Thrift store. Really? Well, like the vintage thrift store. Yeah, it was $72. Are you still working at that co-op? Nah, man, I quit. They wouldn't give me enough mental wellness days.
Unfortunately, people like this in the Portland, Vancouver area are as natural and common as cows are on a farm. I saw that flyer at the co-op. Are you going to the almond milking demo? The Trailblazers? Please. I mean, I like basketball, but that name reminds me way too much of colonization. Though they may be irritating, we don't often see hipsters as a threat. Ezra McCandless was an anomaly.
We aren't side-eyeing the crunchies like they might steal our wallets. The biggest source of anxiety around people like this is whether or not they'll shame us for eating a burger. Save the cows, go vegan. Though this type of person has increased in number over the last decade or so, there's no question that this was one of the cities in which they proliferated most quickly.
Early in the morning on January 7th, 2007, police in Vancouver, Washington received a 911 call. The person on the other line was one of the strangest characters they had ever encountered. Hey, how may I help you? Um, I'm Dylan Pearson and I just killed two people. Who did you kill? At first, it was unclear whether or not this was a prank caller. Okay, where are you at right now? I am at, uh,
21, no, 2901 North K Street. And how did you kill them? With a knife. Are they there too? Not anymore. Where are they at? Well, they're here physically, but they're not here, yeah, spiritually. Their bodies are there? Yeah. Who are they to you? Who are they to me? Uh-huh. No one. What's your name? I'm Dylan Peterson.
Peterson. What's your first name? Jones? No, Dylan Peterson. Jones, D-O-A-N. What? How do you spell your first name? I'm responding from Dylan. Dylan. And what's your middle initial, Dylan? And your date of birth? Come on, I just killed two people. What's your date of birth, Dylan? Come on. Dylan, how old are you? Just, uh, the lights on. Get them here. Okay, where are you at in the house? At the front door.
Where's the knife at? Where's the knife at? I don't know. Okay, Dylan, tell me where the knife is at. You know where it's at. No. The knife? I'll look for it. I don't want you to get it. I want you to tell me where it's at and how. Um, no. I kill people. It's awful. Why did you kill them? Why? Uh-huh. Why? Do you live there?
Can you imagine getting a call this insane? At this point, the dispatcher had officers en route to the scene, a set of small single-story conjoined condos in a lower-income neighborhood. Do you live there? No. Okay, how did you get into their house? I let me in. Okay. Really? No. Come on. I killed two people. Okay.
I understand that, Dawn. You got that? Yes. I killed two people. I killed them. Why did you kill them? Why? Yes. Because. Because why? Because I was born to Vancouver K Street.
There's an orange Camaro outside. There's a red neon, you know, somewhere near. Is the Camaro yours? No. No. No. Okay. You've got to be kidding me. Okay. What type of car do you have? I would have done it sooner. Do you realize that? What type of car do you have, Dylan? It's nice. I don't drive. Come on. Okay.
Yeah, come on, lady. Does this guy sound like he has a driver's license? Give me a break. Where do you live at? Oh, awful. Awful. Terrible. I call 911 and there are no cops here. Okay. I give you the street, the cross street. I give you everything. And there are two people dead and it's bloody and it's gross. Okay. How long ago did you do this?
After I knew both of them were dead? No. How long ago did that happen? Are you sure that they're dead? How long ago? Yes. Oh, poor Sandy just stopped breathing. Poor Sandy just stopped breathing. Poor Sandy. Is anybody else there with you? No. No, there's not. But there's a ton of blood. Oh, God. Are you still by the front door? No, but the front door is open.
The front door is open? Yeah. The dog's outside. Where are you at in the house? By the front door. It's not a big apartment. It's not a big apartment. I'm outside with blood all over myself. Are you inside or outside? I'm outside. I'm in the doorway talking to you, looking at the trellis that is toppled over.
Yeah. No. I killed two people with a knife. Okay. I killed two people with a knife. You know what that takes? It takes a lot. It's awful. It's terrible. It's awful. Okay. Do you know where the knife is right now? Where? No. Do you have it on you? No. Okay. No. I killed him and I lost it. You think I'm shitting you? You really think I'm shitting you? No, I believe you, Dylan. I believe you.
It sounds almost as if this caller, Dylan Peterson, is reciting a script. Like something from a strange, dark sitcom that I would never watch. With an amount of vocal fry that could be deadly to the casual diabetic passerby or the local vegan. I've never in my life heard a sassier murderer. The things this guy says make it almost impossible to believe he's anything more than someone suffering from psychosis.
The dispatcher, though, had to keep Dylan talking until units arrived on scene, which wasn't a difficult task. Slay Queen. Yeah. No. It's terrible. Terrible. I killed them. Do you know those people, or you just pick that out? Everything comes to an end, right? Yeah.
Everything. I killed two fucking people. I killed them. I can't believe I killed them, but I did. I killed them both. It was me. Yes, there's blood everywhere. There was a fight. It was terrible. What happened? They let you in and you had a fight with them? There are lifeless bodies here. Did you go there with the intention to kill them, Dylan? Oh, no.
What the intention? Oh, I think they're here. I think the cops are here. They want you to stay on the phone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, the cops are here. Doug's barking. The cops are here. Okay. Yeah, they're here. All right. Okay, stay on the phone until I tell you it's okay to hang up, okay? Cops are here. They're here.
Yeah, no. Oh. Man. Are you still in the doorway? No. Where are you at now? I'm waiting for the cops. I know you're waiting for the cops. I know I'm waiting for the cops. Are you inside or outside? Oh, shit. That was me.
It's all me. It's a massacre. Disgusting. No, don't stop. They said no, don't stop. No. No. I saw the knife. I saw the knife. Months ago, I saw the knife. Oh. Yeah. My goodness. There's a talented boy right here. I'm his sick mother.
No. There were a ton of people here. There were a ton of people here. When this happened, there were a ton of people there? No. Oh, okay. No. No, there wasn't. Come on. This is not a joke. This is not a joke I'm talking to you. I'm staying on the phone. Yeah, I understand it's Ivo. Yeah. There's nobody here. Yeah. Yeah.
No. Is that your dog that's there? They're here. Yeah, that's the dog. Is it your dog? Do you know what its name is? It's Daisy. Daisy? Mm-hmm. What type of dog is it? Daisy. It's a black lab. Okay. Where is it at right now? At the outside or inside? Oh, they're here.
Well, at least he didn't kill the dog. But isn't it odd that he knew its name? Not only that, but he left the front door wide open and the dog didn't run away. That's a dumb dog. Dylan also knew the names of people he had allegedly murdered.
and he told the dispatcher that he saw the knives he would later use, quote, months ago. There's no way that someone would let this lunatic into their home willingly, right?
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For the ones who get it done.
On January 7th, 2007, police units in Vancouver, Washington were deployed to a home on K Street. The apartment in question was within one of the duplex buildings on that corner. They were all situated close together, painted identically in light eggshell yellow with vibrant red front doors.
When police arrived, they spotted 25-year-old Dylan Peterson wearing dark slacks and a white t-shirt smeared with blood. He stood shoeless with a strange grin on his face. The once white socks on his feet had left bloody footprints when he walked outside to meet the officers. They were absolutely drenched with the fluids of whoever was inside that apartment. Dylan's own blood added to the mixture.
coming from a nasty gash on his hand. The final confirmation of Dylan's self-proclaimed crimes came only when officers stepped into the home themselves. It was a bloodbath. Once Vancouver police finally had Dylan in the interview room, after his medical needs were tended to, they got to work. All they wanted to know was how he knew these people and why they
He killed them. Dylan Peterson sat across from two detectives, leaning back nonchalantly with his legs crossed. He wore a white jumpsuit and had a bulbous bandage on his right hand. How did arrangement work? Did you meet these people through the Culinary Institute in Portland? Nick is in the same class as I am at the school. And how I came to live with them is that...
I fell in hard times. I screwed my life up and ended up under a bridge for six days. In Portland? In Portland. And still went to school? And I couldn't make it to school because my stuff kept getting wet. I couldn't stay dry. So I finally just broke down and called Nick. You know, just hoping. And yeah, and they let me in.
Now, here they sat, not even two months after Nick and his family agreed to take Dylan in. Nick Nagel was Dylan's classmate in this culinary arts program, but they weren't very close.
Dylan wasn't really friends with anyone from class. Nick was just his closest acquaintance. Would you say Nick is your best friend at school? No. Oh, really? No, no, no, not particularly, no. Do you have a best friend at the Culinary Institute that you would determine a friend? Mostly associates. Okay. How'd you get to school? Did you ride with Nick? Yeah, we were in the same class, shared a locker.
Sounds like Nick got paired with the weird kid at school. Ended up being just a little too nice to him and eventually got roped into agreeing to let him stay at their house. You see what being nice does to you? But Dylan Peterson was clean cut, well spoken, and had an overall calm demeanor. He had gotten kicked out of his apartment and was only on the streets for a week and Nick probably felt bad for him.
All of his class materials kept getting soaked by the frequent inclement weather. It is the Pacific Northwest after all. And Dylan didn't have a consistent way to get to school. It's possible that Nick figured he'd be doing a good deed and he was just a nice guy. So by doing this, he would be facilitating Dylan's completion of the culinary program, which would otherwise not be possible.
put yourself in this scenario for a second how many of you would have offered your home to this poor kid who was just down on his luck did you have to pay them rent no i didn't i just helped him around their house made them dinner got them things they needed to laundry for the clothes where did you sleep where there is a space available normally normally in nick's room in this apartment nick
Dylan's classmate, lived with his younger brother, Matthew, and his father, Eric. Eric often left the home for several nights at a time for work, and there were only two bedrooms. So the four guys rotated between the two beds and the couch, depending on who was home. It does, however, seem like Dylan got bed priority. Okay. What did...
Poor teenage Matthew didn't even have his own bed, let alone a bedroom.
But when a stranger came to stay, bedrooms were made readily available. What a nice guy. So the only reason you met these people was through Nick at school. Is that correct? That's correct. When you were at the hospital the day you talked about the things you've been going through while growing up through school, your adolescence, basically the demon you've been fighting throughout your life. Can you talk about that and tell me how you managed that problem through your life growing up?
As a child, I was hyperactive, you know, sort of hyperactive, like not flamboyant, but energetic and always getting into trouble. And, you know, I consider myself at that time an average teenager. I wasn't treated like an average person. I was always treated differently.
You know, a bit of a loner, kind of a weird kid, you know. School was a bit rough. I picked on a lot. By the other students you're talking about? Yeah. Well, why would they pick on you? Yeah, because they, yeah. Because I was just, I was a weird kid. You know, I was skinny, odd, loud. Did you do things to get attention? Not from those people. I just really just did what I wanted to do.
Something tells me none of that changed for Dylan in adulthood. There's always a constant harassment, no matter where I went, what class it was, who I hung out with, everyone always had something to say. One of the important realizations we must come to in adulthood, and believe me, I know, is that we can't just say and do whatever we want and not elicit some sort of response from our fellow human beings.
For example, if you're walking around the mall wearing a cow costume, people are going to stare. It's human nature. You're doing something weird outside the norm. People are going to stare. Dylan Peterson grew up in a family with three siblings. He was second to last, one of the two middle children. Very early in this interview, one of the detectives seated across from Dylan asked the question everyone wants to know.
What was his childhood like? How did you and your mother get along? We got along alright, I guess. Was there one thing that she had a problem with in her life? With alcohol? That was later on. Us kids, we were kept separate from our parents. You know, mainly we were sort of
It was sort of like, you know, parents are home, you guys go do something, come back when it's dinner, do the dishes, go downstairs, watch your TV, and go to bed. The only time we ever got to be together really was like on a daily basis was at the dinner table. It was at the dinner table? Yeah, yeah. That was with her second husband. What happened to your natural father? Did your mom divorce him?
Yeah, he's abusive and he dropped us off at my grandparents house one day when I was five or six. He just disappeared? I haven't seen him since. Since you were six? Were you abused? Not if you ask me about it. I'm asking you, were you abused? Yeah. Physically? Yeah. Sexually? No. I used to get spanked a lot.
Hey, which dad was that? That was George. My first stepfather. Okay. He's kind of ritualistic about it. I don't know. Was the discipline metered out evenly amongst all the kids, or was there a specific focus on one child? It was me. I was the one who never got spanked, just because I was always the one acting up, always the one getting in trouble.
Dylan's negative attention-seeking behavior seems to have started very early and continued becoming a deeply rooted element of his personality until it ultimately escalated to this point. Come on. I killed two people.
Now, we aren't saying he ended up in this interrogation room because he was spanked as a child. That would be insane.
But perhaps the culmination of his childhood experiences and his DNA created the perfect storm for this impulsive scenario. When Dylan was arrested on the scene, his blood alcohol level was high enough that he was impaired, but not high enough for the fact to be considered later in his defense. It's clear that whatever was going on here, Dylan had some comorbid mental illness. Clearly.
It's interesting when police have custody of someone who's already openly admitted to their crimes. At that point, the discussion is no longer a game of cat and mouse, rather an investigation into the why and how this tragedy occurred. Vancouver police had hours with this guy, just digging into his psyche. You said you had tried to take your life as an adolescent.
- I think you mentioned to Detective Thompson, myself, you tried to take your life roughly four to six times. Is that true? - Yeah. - And I think one time you told me that your mom, well at least two times you'd taken some medication that belonged to your mom and she'd actually stopped you or interrupted it or made you vomit. - Me and my brother got into a fight the first time I was 11. Me and my brother got into a fight again, again.
I don't know. I just was like, that's it, you know? Like, you know, I'm sick of being hit all the time. Can't stand it. Seeing it. Doing it. And I was like, that's it, you know? So I was down a bottle of Tylenol. I didn't, I just was like, yeah. Yeah, I'm just gonna kill myself right now. My mom came home from work. Yeah, and just told me to go in the bathroom and throw up.
At 25 years old, Dylan had already tried to kill himself four to six times, depending on how you define trying to kill yourself. The first time was when he was just a child. It was because he got into a fight with his brother.
He must have gotten some sympathy from this attempt because he did it quite a few more times. The positive reinforcement may have contributed to it. Later on, according to Dylan, it was because a girl made some dumb comment to him. This man has a fragile will to live, let's say that.
Either that or he really, really likes the attention. When I killed myself, when I tried to kill myself when I was going into high school, I was so close to being gone. And then for some reason I had to bother. And, you know, it was over. But it was over. Like, yeah, it had gone away. I had resolved something. I had resolved something, you know.
Things looked differently. It was... something was resolved. What was that something? Just the disaster that I felt inside myself, like how awful... how awful I am in general. No matter... my greatest attribute is nothing to the person who I really am inside. Do you have a poor image of yourself? Always. When did that start?
Always. As long as you can remember? Yeah. As an odd kid, I got made fun of a lot. I have a... yeah. My mom had four or three really good looking kids. You know? You're not one of them? No. You figure that your siblings or your brothers and sisters are all better looking than you? Absolutely, 'cause that's all you hear. My grandmother used to tell me not to smile like that. You know? Posing for a picture, don't smile like that. What are you supposed to do? How am I supposed to smile?
Confirmed. Dylan's smile is very creepy, especially the one he displayed after murdering two people. So Dylan had incredibly low self-esteem from a young age. This impulsive decision to try to kill himself one final time apparently brought Dylan so close to death that he had some sort of realization.
something that reset his brain and allowed him to live for a few more years without a similar incident. Without professional intervention, severe mental illness doesn't just go away on its own. Once he entered adulthood, Dylan...
began having problems once again. It's probably out of control. I turned 21 and started drinking. I was like, oh, here we go. You know? You think that was the start of a downward spiral in your life at age 21? That's when I... No, that was the beginning. I don't know. I can't really... I really haven't grasped it yet. I've spent... I've spent...
I spent three years, two years putting all that away, right? Putting all of it away. I spent a year and a half in an apartment. Where? In a hotel? In a hotel, yeah. Became agoraphobic, massive alcoholic to the point where I would just wake up, drink, you know, go out to the bar, couldn't keep a job.
You know, I'd see my family sometimes, talk to them whenever I'd have like, you know, a couple of good days. Be like, "Oh, you know, it's time to get a job. It's time to see your family. It's time to..." That's when he started showing himself to me. That's when he was... - When you were living alone in an apartment? - Yeah. Yeah. - Did you go to a mirror or did you have... Did you see this person? - That's my... Yeah, I just looked in the mirror. Something wasn't right. I looked in the mirror. Something wasn't right.
Dylan speaks of the demon inside of him, but he doesn't seem to be talking about an actual demon associated with any religion I've ever heard of. Dylan sounds like he's explaining a hidden side of himself, one that only comes out when he's at his worst. Things got worse for me year after year after year after year. Didn't you have any girlfriends in high school or some close relationships there?
I had friends, yeah. But you know what I'm talking about, like close girlfriends where you dated. No, not really. Not any. Have you been married? I've been married, no. Have you kids? No, I do not have any children. Do you have a girlfriend right now? No, I do not. Who's the closest friend you have in Vancouver, Portland? Closest friend? Right. I mean, personal relationship. It was Matthew. It was totally Matthew.
It's totally Matthew. It's a 15 year old. Yeah. No. But he's dead. He is dead. How's that make you feel? Relieved. Why do you feel relieved? Because I got it out. I got it out. Explain that. Whatever, whatever that's been eating me away has been appeased. You know, it's been satisfied. Is it a demon? I believe it to be a demon, absolutely. I don't want to put words in your mouth. No. I don't know what to describe it as. A monster. A monster.
How long has it been inside you? The monster's always been there. Just a little over a year before he moved to Portland for culinary school, Dylan was living in Idaho. He had one female friend who seemed to understand him in a way that no one else did. But she had a husband. And that husband did not like Dylan. I was out with my friend who I knew from high school and college.
Yeah, I just met her husband and we had some drinks and we left and yeah, he punched me in the face. Whoa, what happened? He said, I don't like you. I got out of the car, you know, blood dripping on myself and I just was like, why did you do that, man? I don't like you. Went ape shit on him. This recollection sounds a bit, oh, I don't know, dramatized, but we'll go with it. The guy, he really, the second, like, yeah,
hit him in the face and I was like, "I don't like you." And, you know, and then I hit him back, he like took off. And so, like he just ran like across the way. And I followed him and I just, you know, just wailed on him. Were you taking out some of your anger and frustration on him? I was just having him hit, you know, I got, it was just, I was just the one, you get hit so many times and you have, there's nothing you can do about it ever.
There just isn't anything you can do about it, so I always just took it, right? You get hit. You get hit. Yeah. Right. I was like, enough. Enough. You know? I don't believe in hitting. I don't deserve to be hit, but fuck, you know? It's mine. No, this is enough. And I'm going to get back. Yeah. Were you hitting him for all the times you've been hit in the past? Is that what you're saying?
Good thing he made that clarification.
It's like Dylan is retelling his own supervillain origin story. Quick, somebody call Drunk 3PO. Unfortunately for the Nagel family, Dylan would reach his final form at their cozy, quiet Vancouver home. They had selflessly agreed to let this man live with them, and little did they know that he was a ticking time bomb.
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Get the travel protection trusted by more than 70 million American travelers. Get a quote at AllianzTravelInsurance.com. On January 7, 2007, 25-year-old Dylan Peterson was arrested after calling 911 on himself. He had been living at an address in Vancouver, Washington. The small apartment belonged to the family of Dylan's classmate, Nick Nagel.
Dylan grinned in his bloodstained clothes as he was taken away from the scene. It was still early in the morning when officers finally got a chance to enter the home themselves. What they saw resembled a slaughterhouse, and that's exactly what the small apartment had become. The front door to the home opened right up to the living room and mirrored another door on the opposite end of the house.
This door opened up into Nick Nagel's bedroom. Nick's younger brother, 15-year-old Matthew, was slumped in the doorframe, unmoving. He wore a t-shirt and boxers, now slashed open by a knife, and bloodied. His neck had been deeply cut in addition to many other obvious stab wounds. It was a quiet Sunday morning and police still had more to discover.
Over in the other bedroom, officers discovered Sandy Terrell, face down in a blood-soaked dress, slashes covering her back. Sandy was Nick and Matthew Nagel's mother. She didn't live in the apartment, but was visiting her son Matthew. Nick and his father Eric were not home when the attack ensued. Blood covered the walls, floors, and furniture in the apartment.
It had been tracked back and forth across the floor for who knows how long. It had been smeared on everything from laundry baskets to floor lamps and splattered across appliances and bed sheets. It was clear these people didn't go down without a fight. Dylan himself was covered in blood and defensive wounds, including the gash on his hand, which turned out to be pretty deep. Why on earth would someone murder their only friend?
in the world. Well, their only acquaintance. Remember when police asked Dylan who he was closest with? He answered 15-year-old Matthew Nagel. His other victim was the boy's mother, an innocent visitor to the apartment. What a way to bring in the new year. The holidays are always hardest for me. Emotionally, you mean? Absolutely, yeah. The torture, even, yeah, just the weather.
Dylan apparently wasn't a huge fan of Sandy from the start.
He thought she was an irresponsible parent, as she was in comparison to most of Dylan's upbringing. Dylan felt some sort of protectiveness over Matthew. And when Matthew came home from school with several F's on his report card, Dylan was disappointed at Sandy's lack of response. Why is it always so that those with literally no moral compass are the most judgmental about the actions of others?
I wonder. She's like the too cool mom. Like, hey, call my mom if you need some drugs. Like, everyone loves Sandy because she's got the hookup. Mm-hmm. I didn't like Sandy for that reason. Did you like Matthew? I loved that kid, yeah. He was a good kid. He was a good kid. He just needed a little discipline. Very bright, really willing, energetic. All he needed was just... All he needed was just...
yeah just a reason why and he was even looking for that like we had talked and you know and he we just sat down one day and just like we just had a talk and he's like you know i don't want to do this more and i'm like yeah you know what i don't want to drink anymore and you know and he's like i want to i want you know i'm sick of the friends i hang out with all they do is this and i was like you know hey i've been there you know totally been there you needed you know you need to
Isn't it crazy to listen to someone with such a delusional perspective?
Saturday evening, just a few hours before the murders, the party began winding down and Matthew and Dylan talked on the couch as people cleaned up the kitchen. The two planned to sleep on the couch and Sandy would sleep in one of the other bedrooms. First, I went into the bathroom and no, I felt tall. You are tall. You're 6'1". I know, but I don't always feel tall.
You mean you felt your height? Right. And sometimes I'd slouch, but I found myself standing very erect. Very erect. And I was, yeah, uncharacteristically looking at them. Were they asleep? No, we were in the living room. We chatted and we were talking about all this stuff. And they were in the kitchen and they were cleaning. So this is previously through the night? This is before the...
This is a couple hours before. Okay. And yeah, and so I go, I look in the mirror and I saw his eyes. You saw whose eyes? The person inside me. And he was looking back at you? Yeah, I noticed his eyes. And then I left. Wait, let's deal with the eyes in the mirror. What was that look that he gave you? It's not necessarily the look, it's the color of his eyes. What color is that?
This cannot possibly be an act. No one in their right mind could use these words and not break character. What was going through your mind? When you left? Yeah. What was going through my mind was, Dylan, go jump off the bridge.
So you want to kill yourself? Yeah. Go jump off the bridge. You're obviously drunk. It won't hurt much. You know? It won't hurt much. You can do it backwards. It'll just be a fall and a crunch. And then that'll be it. Oh, the trouble he would have saved if he had gone through with his first plan. Unfortunately, Dylan decided against suicide this time. If he hadn't, several people's lives would have been spared. So what turned you around? He did.
I was like, yeah. I'm like, no, I'm going to go and I'm going to have some more to drink and then, you know, and then I'll be topped off and then there's no way I'll feel anything. So I did that and then, yeah, and then I picked up a knife out of the knife kit. Your knife kit? That black kit that was in that bureau? Yeah. And I found just my sharpest knife. What was that knife? It was like a seven inch paring knife. Well, once you found it, what'd you do? I just held it. I just held it.
And I thought, and I was like, you can't do this. Like, you can't do it. But he was always, yeah, he was there egging me on. Can't do what, though? I couldn't kill Matthew. I couldn't. There's no way. Is that what the voice or whatever you were doing? Yeah, and he was like, just do it. He was telling you to kill Matthew? Yeah, yeah. Totally, yeah. And then his mom, definitely. And kill her, too? We contemplated. We contemplated. We? We?
Him and I. Okay. We fought back and forth for a while, you know, and I was doing my best, like, it wasn't really being obvious. He's more of, he's, he was, yeah, no, he was, he was very good at this. He was very good at this. Did he wear you down? He took control. That was it. That's all he needed. That's all he really needed was just another drink. That's all he needed. And then, yeah, and then I was gone.
He was there. He was the one making all the decisions. He was, and he was the one. Yeah. Yeah. What a perfect scheme. Dylan kills two innocent people, which garners a lot of attention, one of which he supposedly cared about, but it's not Dylan's fault at all. Poor Dylan has a demon inside of him that forced him to kill them. Put aside the fact we don't believe in demons. You know, it still wasn't his fault. Poor baby.
Now, Dylan's only friend in the whole world is gone. And Dylan is also a victim of this awful demon. Why kill Matthew? I have no idea. It's nothing against Matthew. Really. Nothing against Matthew. It's just that there's nothing against Matthew at all. Because he didn't want more than what he was given in life.
You know? But he wasn't selfish? He didn't want any. Yeah, he wasn't about big fancy cars. What I wanted was like his El Camino fix when he turned 16 so he'd have a car like the rest of his friends. Like, it was just that evil who had to do it. Why kill Matthew first? Because if I did, because if I went in the room, Matthew would have came into the room and that would have been more difficult. You mean if you went and killed the mother first? Mother first, yeah.
He would have interrupted that? Yeah. And challenged you? Absolutely. Wow, this is a strategic demon. Okay. And I just took the knife and... Was he laying down? Yeah, he was in the fetal position on the couch, like sleeping, like he does all the time. I've seen him a million times. And I just, yeah. What did you do? I did a, I tried to find the best angle, like, like I just wanted it to be a blow.
You mean stab him in the neck? Yeah. I just wanted it to be one blow and it'd be done. But it didn't work like that. Why? He woke up. I didn't, I don't know if my knife wasn't big enough, but it went in him. And he woke up. He woke up when you stabbed him in the neck? Yeah. Yeah. I stabbed him. I pulled it out. Then I toppled him. What does that mean? Well, he got up, you know, and he's like, Dylan, no. And then I just, and then I went.
and went into the room and saw Sandy and just... What was she doing? She just heard noises so she came out of her room and I started stabbing her and then I heard Matthew was still breathing so I gave him a few final blows to make sure that he was dead and then made sure Sandy was dead too. Did you go back and stab her again? And then I noticed that my hand was mangled and I was like... Did you use your right hand to wield the knife? Yes. How did you cut your hand?
Poor Matthew was awoken from his sleep to find his friend stabbing him in the neck. Even after a multitude of blows, he was able to get up and try to run away.
making it only as far as the doorway he was found in. There was blood everywhere, just unimaginable. Just more than I... More than you thought there would be? Yeah. More than... It was... You know... You were covered in blood. The way... The way he told me was just going to be simple, you know? The way who told you? The guy inside of me.
What did he tell you? There was going to be a clean sweep? It would just be easy. It would just be easy. That's what it would do, but all the time he lies. If Dylan really did have a blackout moment where a demon came over him, or he entered some sort of psychotic state, how does he remember so many details about the attack? He remembers minutia down to the decisions he made and why.
Not only that, Dylan recounts it all very calmly. I hear not a hint of remorse, grief, or confusion in his voice. That's where I ended up. Did Sandy say anything to you? All they said was no, Dylan, no. No. Did Sandy turn her back on you? Yeah. When? Did she try to run back in her bedroom? I don't know. I don't know. I think you stabbed her about 20 times in the back. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Why so many times? Maybe because, I don't know, I thought that she was the cause of the problems. It doesn't, I'm saying it as if it's rational. It seemed like you were taking on a lot of aggression on her by stabbing her so many times. You know, front and back, I think she had over 30 stab wounds or lacerations or cuts. Were you mad at her? I must have been.
To get the job done.
is what Dylan said. So after you cut and stabbed both Matthew and Sandy, did you try to give them first aid or anything? I called the cops right after. What did you tell the police? Well, I said, I just killed two people. Here's my address, the car. And you were perfectly honest about it. Totally, totally, totally. I was like, get here now.
"Get here now, I just killed two people. Where are you? I just killed two people." Well, you were matter of fact about it. Yeah. "Get here, I just killed two people. Why aren't you here now? I just killed two people." What do you want to happen to you now? What do I want to happen to me now? I don't know. I don't know. But you knew the police would come eventually. Absolutely. And that you wanted that to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think this demon or this whole situation is set in motion to punish you for something?
Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you want to be punished? Do I want to be punished? Yes. I want... I believe. I believe the voices in my head. I don't like me. I hate myself. I hate myself. I hate myself. And that is what I have to do. I have to suffer. I have to suffer the rest of my life. It's unavoidable and it's inevitable. And now, yeah, now every...
This thing has appeased. Now I can just go on being miserable. Matthew Nagel's life was ended abruptly and without reason. He loved to play guitar and skateboard. And he loved working on cars, especially his Camaro. Matthew's mother, Sandy, had a life too. She had friends and interests and two sons that she loved to spend time with when she could.
She struggled with substance abuse and wasn't a perfect person. But who is? She certainly didn't deserve the death penalty at the hands of Dylan Peterson. Matthew's father and brother would soon get the news that half their family had just been murdered and taken away forever. Nick and his dad were now alone. Dylan Peterson pleaded guilty to two counts of first-degree murder
He was sentenced to a weirdly specific 57.5 years in prison. After his sentencing hearing, Eric Nagel spoke only a few words. He said, quote, I can only pray that each day will be worse than the last with nothing to look forward to. Dylan's issues with impulse control and attention-seeking behavior got him somewhere else.
he probably never thought he'd be. He doesn't look or sound like a murderer, more like someone who has a favorite My Little Pony character. And though it wasn't perfect, he did have a pretty normal upbringing. The only difference between Dylan and many of us is that he lacks the willpower or desire to control his own actions and seems to be hyper-focused on the actions of others. He certainly can't take responsibility
for anything. The only logical place for people like Dylan is in prison for the rest of their lives. That's why we built them. That's the purpose of a prison. Segregation of lunatics from the rest of polite society. We seem to have forgotten that in 2023. So let me take a moment to remind you, the only thing we can do in life
is try our best to avoid people like Dylan Peterson. Join Plus. You can find it at swordandskill.com slash plus. Also, check out our store if you want some really cool merch. Until next time, stay safe. ... ... ... ...
So
Hi, Mike. This is Kelly. I just want to say, fuck you, because you've ruined every other podcast for me. Like, I literally can't listen to any other podcast. I love Sword and Scale. It's amazing. I just recently joined Splust, and I'm so glad I did, because there's, like...
over 140 or something like that new episodes that I wouldn't have got a chance to listen to if I wouldn't have joined. I just really appreciate your format like you and your team put out. I think I like it because you, it's just you. So it's like you're talking to the listener instead of like just banter between two people like most podcasts are. But again, love the show. Really, really appreciate everything and you guys are awesome. Thanks. Music
you
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