#479 - Born To Be Bad - Wheeling, West Virginia
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This week in Wheeling, West Virginia, a horrible man with a nasty past finally goes too far when he lures two people into a bloody and brutal scene and seems to live out his fantasies. Welcome to Small Town Murder. ♪

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yeah!

Oh, yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us today on another wild edition of Small Town Murder. And today, it's West Virginia time. And if you know anything about small town murder, there's some states that are at the top of that crazy murder pyramid. West Virginia sits alone as a shining star.

We've had the craziest murders we've ever had in West Virginia. And this week, no different. This week, by the way, if we have time, and I think we are going to, we're going to even sneak in a second story, a very old one. So we have one story that's very new and then one story that's very old and different.

They're crazy stuff. So just a really fun, fun, insane week of murder we have. Different week. I like this. Different stuff. Quickly before we get to that, shut up and give me murder.com. Tickets for live shows. Yes. April the 5th, Sacramento. April the 6th.

San Francisco, you're up first, so let's get in there. Don't embarrass yourselves, of course. Right. You want to, after that, get to the 420 virtual live show. Yes, sir. That's the easiest show to get to because wherever you are, that's where the show is. That's where it is. In your living room, anywhere in the world, if you have an internet connection, you can see that live show. Just like a regular live show, we do the screen and the pictures and us and the jokes and the story. Only a theme.

Because it's 420, I'm going to have smoking apparatus that will scare Jimmy. And also we're going to dress up in some costumes, which is fun stuff. It's going to be a lot of fun. Can't wait. And the show is available not only on April 20th, but for two weeks after that, too. You can watch it a whole bunch of times. Do whatever you want with it for two weeks. Shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for the rest of the year, too, because they're going fast.

Yes, sir. Shows are selling out. Patreon.com slash crime in sports. That's where the bonus material lives. It sure is. You want more stuff? We got more stuff. We got a couple hundred bonus episodes you'll get immediately. Anybody $5 a month or above, you get it all. All those bonus episodes that you've never heard before. And then new ones every other week. One crime in sports, one small town murder. You get it all this week. Hot deals.

what you're going to get for crime and sports. We're going to talk about Hans Neiman, who is a chess player who everyone thinks had a vibrator up his ass to win chess tournaments.

Yeah. And apparently. Quivering Beale. And he's not the first to do this, apparently. Apparently. Unbelievable. Sticking things up your ass and playing table games is a really. That's not original? No, it's not. Not even. We're going to talk about that and the history of things up your ass. People have already gotten that idea? Wow. And you hear it and you go, that's a good idea. I'm going to do that. That's interesting. Then for small town murder, a subject I've wanted to talk about for a long time, D.B. Cooper.

Came onto a plane, jumped off it, disappeared. We don't know what happened to him. Took it all with him. There's new information that's been out in the last couple years we'll talk about. Not even a lot of money. Not even a ton of money. It's so strange. What a weird case. All we have is this sketch drawing of him and a bunch of people going, what a polite guy. That's all. Pay attention.

patreon.com slash crime in sports. And you'll get a shout out at the end of the show as well. Right. Jimmy will mispronounce your name. Just disclaimer very quickly as well. It's a comedy show. We're comedians. Yeah. We wish that these stories weren't true, but they are there. We're nothing is nothing is enhanced for comedic value or anything like that. All every word of this is true. Unfortunately, we do all the research that's possible to get every last drop of info for you there. Uh,

What we don't do, though, what we go out of our way not to do, we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes. Yeah, but? But we're not scumbags. That's how that goes. That's a pretty good deal. So if you think that sounds good, you want to hear a crazy story with some humor to lighten it up a little bit, not to be weird, you know what I mean, then you're in the right place. You've dragged me down. If you think true crime and comedy never should ever go together, maybe you're not in the right place. Wow.

Give it a shot before you make the decision, though. Don't be so dismissive. No complaining about it afterwards. That's how that works. That's what it is. That sounds good. I think it's all time. Let's do this. It's time to do it. Let's all sit back. Deep breath here. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shut up and get.

murder. Let's do this. What do you say? Okay, let's go on a trip. Jimmy, let's do it. All right. We are going to West Virginia. Right. And we have not been personally the two of us in many places in West Virginia. Right. But we have been to this place.

together in a car. Really? Yes. Oh, we ate through. We ate horrible hamburgers in a parking lot. Actually, what in this place? Wheeling, West Virginia. It is on the way from Pittsburgh to Ohio. If you go from Pittsburgh to Columbus, it goes right through it like we did when we did a show in Pittsburgh, then did one in Columbus. We drove there.

Wow. And wheeling West Virginia. Remember, we were like, oh, God, we're in West Virginia. We got to hide. They're going to be pissed at us here. We're fucked. And we had cheeseburgers? Yes. Oh, my God, at the Wendy's. How back? Yes.

The biggest Wendy's stuff was falling out of it. He was just stuffing it in. I was like, wow, that is still in the wrapper. Oh, yeah. Mashing it into my face. And you just had a wrapper up against your face. Like, I was like, what is going on? I do remember. Yes. That's crazy. It was a wild place. That's where that was. Wheeling, West Virginia. It was off the highway, like.

Weird Wendy's. Yeah, truck stop style Wendy's. Yeah, it kind of looked like an outlet mall and then had a Wendy's on the outside of it. It was weird. I don't know what was going on there. Was that like a strip mall in front of a strip mall? Yes, that's what it was. Like an outlet mall. Two layers of strip mall. Then a strip mall. And then like those side of the highway fast food restaurants. A bar.

Boundary Road. Yeah. Wheeling is in the northern West Virginia panhandle. And even on the website, they say the northern panhandle. I mean, they're all about it. That's exactly what it is. It's a little tiny panhandle up there. About an hour to Pittsburgh and about two hours to Columbus, Ohio, the other direction. Okay.

So that's where it is. About three hours and 35 minutes to Pemberton, West Virginia, which was our last West Virginia episode, episode 434. A nearly headless horror scene was the name of that. And it was gross. I remember that. Nearly. This is in Ohio County. So they were like, well, we're wedged in next to Ohio. Might as well just call it Ohio. Area code 304. Motto here, the friendly city.

Is it? Wow. What happened in our story is anything but friendly. I'll say that much. Anything but friendly. A little bit of the history. We'll go through this real quick here. The name Wheeling, the origins of the name are disputed. I guess the main one that they think it is, is they think it comes from a Lenape Native American tribe name with the phrase Weelink or Weelunk, which meant a place of the head or place of the skull.

Oh, not like the beginning of mouth of a river, but the head. The name supposedly refers to either a Native American prisoner of other tribes or a white dude who was a settler there. Either way, the person was scalped and decapitated.

So that's why it's named that. It's literally a head that they stuck there. And the reason is that the severed head was displayed at the confluence of Wheeling Creek and the Ohio River. They put it on a pike there and said, don't fuck with us. What? Yeah, that's some hardcore shit. West Virginia has never been safe. I'm telling you, the place has always been wild. It's not a place to take your pickup truck back into the woods. I mean, it's.

If you do that and go wheeling back there, you might be. There's heads on sticks and shit. That is the scariest thing I've ever heard. It's terrifying. And that's why they named their town after that. Just a head warning people. So it reached its peak of population in 1930. So it's been a hundred year decline since then. Right. There was, I guess, as the city was growing, there was people building big houses actually on, uh,

Wheeling Island especially, but there's also slums for factory workers and things like that and mining, you know, miners and that sort of deal. As a result of the growth, an ordinance was passed regulating personal cesspools because you got to have your cesspool regulated.

I keep my cesspool in tip-top condition. How about you? Personal one? Personal cesspool. Hey, out of my personal cesspool here. Get the fuck out. What are you trying to contaminate my cesspool? What's your personal cesspool? How do you have that? Like your...

Like your fucking septic tank? Well, they said there was also a ban on pipe communications with other homes and businesses unless offensive smells were properly trapped. So I think they were trying to make the town smell less like sewage is what they were doing here. Huh? Yeah. The Great Depression changed everything.

It restructured the, then, you know, restructuring of industry came with World War II. And then there was a lot of less jobs after that. And so it kind of started, has been falling apart since then. Here's some reviews of the town because we've never been there. So let's give you a couple. And most of them are good. Most of the people like it here. Here's five stars. Wheeling is accurately nicknamed the friendly city and for good reason. It's a wonderful place to live, work, and raise a family. Friendly. Head on a bike. That's where it started. Yeah.

We have statistics. You don't.

And while the nightlife and activities aren't as plentiful as other big cities, Wheeling is like much else in life, what you make of it. I am proud to be a product of Wheeling and will always proudly own my West Virginia heritage, no matter where life takes me. All right. They love it. And then finally, three stars here. Let's do two. Not a terrible town. That's good. That's a...

It's a raving, screaming from the rooftops review, isn't it? There's a zoo, casino, and golf courses near and around here, along with outdoor opportunities like boating or hiking. So there's a zoo, a casino, and a golf course. That's a weird day. Play some golf, look at a tiger, lose some money. That's a great day.

I would be careful about buying on Wheeling Island, however, as it's prone to flooding in rainy seasons. Oh, no. Now, our actual thing takes place on Wheeling Island. Oh, really? So that's interesting that they keep mentioning that. Two stars here. One more. There really is not a lot to do. It's quite boring here. The only thing you can do to keep yourself occupied is going to someone else's house to hang out.

That would be okay with me if Wheeling was a farm town, but it's not. It's a town that is trying to be a city, but its streets are so empty you can see tumbleweeds roll past on the sidewalk. I've met good... No, you can't. Yeah, there's no... There's no fissile. Thistle isn't growing in there. That's out there. By the way, did you know that that's all? Tumbleweeds are a total accident?

Go on. Russian immigrants came and they had the thistle seeds stuck in their clothes when they came. And somehow a couple of them got on the ground. They didn't plant the shit on purpose. They had it stuck in there from where they were from. I didn't know. I had no idea that it was a crop. Tumbleweeds are not naturally occurring. Yeah. Yeah. Who knew? They had the seeds stuck in them and they got them on the ground. Wow. The next thing you know, the whole western part of the country is covered in them. It's crazy.

So I thought that was weird. So, yeah, they said, I've met good people here, however. I have some really good friends. I do plan on moving away, but I will always keep in touch with them. I'm not going to stay here, but, you know. People, 27,142 people here. So it's not a tiny town. No. But every...

They all describe it as a very small town, though. So I think maybe it feels smaller than it is. More females and males, about normal. A little older on the median age, about 43. Less people married here. More people are single with children. Race of this town, 90% white and wheeling.

5.9% black, 0.9% Asian, 1.1% Hispanic. So pretty white in this town. 42% of the people here are religious, and it'll surprise you, but Catholic is actually the top religion here.

Is that right? Yes, because there are a lot of ethnic... There's a lot of ethnicities that are here because any mining town back in the day, especially ones that are close to Pennsylvania, had a lot of Italians. Yeah, a lot of Italians, a lot of Polish people, a lot of people like that that would come in. So the unemployment rate here is almost 7%, which is...

That's pretty high.

Very affordable. Like 1997 style is what this place is. Incredibly affordable. And if you cannot wait to get here, we have for you the Wheeling, West Virginia Real Estate Report. ♪

The average two-bedroom rental here goes for $980 a month. So it's lower than the national average by a good shot. Here, and apparently they're building a lot of apartments here currently. A lot of apartments are going up in the last couple of years. Here's a two-bedroom, two-bath, so technically T-Bowl for every B-Hole here. Yeah. 980 square feet. The porch is literally falling off the house. Yeah.

It looks like the guy on an old mountain ducan is going to come out of it with a shotgun and go, you know, get off my consarnit, get off my land, you government sons of bitches, and he's going to start firing shots into the air. It's leaning. It's not great. And it's like in a lot of other houses, so it's like in an old city section of the town, too. So it's not even like there's no land, you're crammed in. There's a, I'd say, also a pale, old, sad yellow color that's

Clearly from decades ago. There is a fridge in the backyard. Not sure if it comes with the house or not, but it's just sitting there with the doors open currently. You can check that out. $50,000 for that.

And the fridge. And the fridge. I don't know. Like I said, that's not mentioned in the listing. I can't guarantee that. Can't speak to it. Can't speak to it. Here's a three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,050-square-foot house. So it's a nice, it's a smaller house, but it's nice, regular, standard house. Yeah, nothing falling off of it.

Looks nice from the outside. Clean wood floors, white kitchen. You know, the house backs up to some decent looking woods. You don't have like other people right on top of you. Not bad. $134,900 for that. So that's your average house, I guess. And here is a four bedroom, six bath. So that's a T-Bowl for each and every vehicle. 6,331 square feet. My Christ. Yeah. 3.6 acres.

And it's all trees surrounding the house. So if you're in your house, you don't see anybody or anything. Huge brick house, amazing pool. Looks like a beautiful oasis in the middle of West Virginia. It's the weirdest shit. $899,000 for that.

Yeah. In Arizona, that is $8.5 million. That would be $8.9 million. Add another zero. Add a couple more zeros there. Things to do in this town. The Upper Ohio Valley Italian Heritage Festival. I couldn't even get it out. I was so excited. We got a home.

West Virginia has a whole festival for you. There is a lot of Italians. Remember we talked about mining back in the day? Yeah, yeah. Come over. We're already all greasy. They just shove us right down a hole. All lubed up. Let's go. Let's go. So there's a lot of them there. This year, I'll read right from the site here. Following the ribbon cutting, Tom Fatto, this year's Italian American of the Year for the festival. Wow.

Of the year. I win. Can I be your Italian American of the year, please? One of these festivals? Someone have us in there. We'll bring attention to that shit. Help me. What the fuck? I can't get into the Hall of Fame there and the one? Help me out here. Italian American of the year. Of the year. And what did Fatto do? Well, he said he's looking forward to the camaraderie of the event and how the people of all cultures come together to enjoy it.

He said it's time tested and brings in thousands of people. He said, quote, that's for a couple of good reasons. The economy here gets a little bit of a boost, you know, which is good. And the citizens and for the citizens of Wheeling, this is a very big event. Let me tell you. He said this is the granddaddy of them all. There's so much to enjoy. He said it. He said it.

There's something for everybody here, and I hope everybody has a great day. It's not just for the Italians. By any means, I want everyone to have some food, fun, and I hope you've brought your families. Come on now. Food, fun, and family. And they also have food, live music, and a bocce ball tournament, of course. You've got to have that. Some of the people performing here, one is Ray Massa's Euro Rhythms, quote, the best Italian-American band in the USA. Oh, yeah.

Say wild shit like that. Big picture of him here. Look at the fucking fat guy here. It's like Vito from The Sopranos. He's a big, hefty guy. Euro rhythms. There's all the opening ceremony. We got the Jim Frank combos going to perform. Jim and Frank. The Chillbillies with a Z. Yeah.

I don't know how no one thought of that yet. The Chillbillies. That's a great name for a country band. How is that? Yeah. How did they get that? How did they get it? That should have been gone. How's that not trademarked? A long time ago. We got Diamond Rio, but not Chillbillies? Chillbillies? That sounds perfect. Lady Antebellum, but not Chillbillies? Not the Chillbillies. Come on. That sounds... Who doesn't want to hang out with the Chillbillies?

So much better. So much better. Antoinette Manganis will be there. The Cavaliers will be there. From 7 o'clock to 8.30 p.m., Spinning Jenny will be performing.

It gets old after a minute. You're like, is she going to? Yeah. Wow, she can do that. She can do it without getting dizzy. That's pretty impressive. All right. I've seen it. And you walk away, right? It's a lot of spinning, Jenny. It's a lot. And then also the Skyliners will be playing. The Nicola Di Sabatino, who's an accordionist, will be playing as well.

No word if she's bringing a monkey or not or he's bringing a monkey or not. And then Mickey D, another accordionist, will be playing. Mickey D. Mickey D. Wow. That's what's going on there. There's also a lot of ethnic festivals in Wheeling. A bunch of different ones. Wow. Yeah. It's weird. We're new. Strange. Crime rate in this town, what we are interested in, property crime is right at the average.

So not very low crime rate, especially when you talk about violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime. Yeah. More than double the national average. What? I don't know what's going on here, but it's sad about all the ethnicities. Yeah. They're pissed off about the Italian festival. They're like, I don't even know what a fucking Zeppole is. I'm going to stab somebody. Say cannoli one more time.

What is that? Swaying hell? I don't know what that is. I'm violent. I'm feeling violent. God, that shit is so good. It is, yes. It's very good. Of course it is. It's terrible for you and delicious. It's like an Italian croissant. There's so many good Italian desserts. Fuck, they're so good. I don't like cannolis, though. I've got to be honest.

What? Is it the crust? No, no, no. It's too rich, too sweet. I don't like- The custard is what drives you nuts? It's too sweet, man. You know how me with sweets. I'm not a big sweets guy. I'm just not. Yeah, but- I like a cheesecake that's not very sweet. I don't like sugar that much, like sweet, sweet. I'm annoyed by a too crispy crust of a cannoli. That's a nightmare when you like-

go to snap it, and then it slides either direction off your plate. It explodes. It breaks into 100 pieces. And you have to embed them into the fucking... Into the custard. Into the shit and put it in your mouth. I fucking love it. No good. I like the Italian cookies. The real light ones that are not that sweet. That's kind of what I'm into. So let's talk about a murder, all right? Shall we? Or hopefully we'll get to it. It's going to be multiple murders no matter what. Oh, boy. This is a bloody episode. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Let's talk about a young man who is, there's no way other to describe him than just a real asshole. He's just an asshole. I mean, there's people in the world that are,

There's a lot of murders that you cover where you go, okay, I don't think that person will ever kill anybody else again probably. A wife kills her husband, husband kills her wife. Like there's this weird buildup or some business thing where the guy was suing for five years and they're fighting and all that kind of shit. Then there's people where you go, this guy, I can't believe he hasn't killed a million people. Like this guy could be a mass murderer in a heartbeat. Yeah.

Here's the guy, Gerald Wayne Jacko Jr., J-A-K-O. So Jacko, probably, Jacko Jr. Gerald Jacko Jr. G, first name G, last name J. So J-A-K-O Jr. He's born in March 1985. Young guy. Young asshole, yeah. He's still a young guy here. Let's see. Let's catch up with him when he's about 18.

Let's just assume that he wasn't like a straight-A student and wasn't being thrown scholarship offers from every corner of the nation. Let's just assume that based on... The Mountaineers are not recruiting him. No. And we can assume... I'm going to assume he had a pretty hefty juvenile record because...

That's not available, but his adult record that I got that's available starts like immediately at 18. Right now? Yeah. Right now, right now. Like as soon as he turns 18, he's going. You know when you're a kid and you're like, today I fucking turn 18, I'm going out. I'm going to just go on a crime spree. You don't think he said that? Maybe. You know what? I can't get in the man's head.

I can't get into the man's head, so it's possible. He could have just said, my 18th birthday, boy, it is fucking on. I'm going to have a day. I am going to dominate this place. He seems to be from Ohio here because that's where the first Belmont County, Ohio. That's where the first of pretty much all of his early arrests come from. So in June of 2003, so he's barely 18. He's 18 for a couple months.

He is arrested of the I'm sorry, before that in April. So right after he turned 18, he's arrested for three counts of theft in Belmont County, Ohio. Oh, so we're starting with that. Then in June of 2003, he is arrested for drug possession, falsification, which I think he had a false ID on him. I probably told the cop a wrong name and also underage consumption.

Yeah. So I think he had booze, drugs and probably had a fake ID where he bought the booze with. And that's what happened. Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about the buying the book. Yeah, you're probably right. That's a possibility there. Or that might have been a different charge. I'm not sure. But it's OK because he doesn't have much time to recover from that because in April of 2004, April 11th of 2004, he's arrested for a couple of things here. Drug possession and trafficking drugs as well.

Oh, now he's, okay, one year later. Yeah, one year later. He's been 18 for a year, and he's selling drugs. Graduated to trafficking. Yep, graduated from just drinking in the streets to I'm going to traffic something. I mean, who knows what it was. He could have had four dime bags of weed. We don't know what the hell it was. But either way, he wasn't smart enough to not get arrested for trafficking, which is a problem. June 1st, 2004, so a couple months later, he's then arrested for burglary and theft as well.

Okay. Okay. So think about that. He's been like a year and three months. He's been 18 years old and we already have trafficking, drug possession, you know, dumb shit consumption by a minor. Now we're up to burglary and theft, which is a, that's a step up the ladder. Yeah.

And that's likely because he can't – it's probably tough to get a job with a trafficking conviction. With all these court dates looming in the future. Yeah. It's probably hard to get a job. So he's likely thinking about how he needs money and what are you going to do now that you can't get a job? You got to steal it. You got to steal – yeah. The thing is to burglarize is another –

Because if you're just doing drugs or whatever, that can be a pretty victimless crime. Even if you're selling drugs to adults, that's their decision. If they want to do drugs, that's up to them. Again, not really a whatever. But once you get into burglary, now you're breaking into people's places at that point. That's a different story. Generally, yeah. Burglary, a burglary charge is generally stealing from somebody without their knowledge. You know what I mean? Yes.

That's pretty scummy. And theft as well. Yeah. So that is June 1st, 2004. Now, July 19th, 2004, a month later, he is arrested for sale and or furnishing to underage person.

So I don't know if he's working at a gas station and sold a kid booze. Or sold a kid a gallon of gas. Yeah. It would have to be because he's not 21 yet. So he's underage also. So they couldn't get him for giving liquor to his friend because

Because they're both minors. So it would have to be selling it to somebody. It would have to be he was working somewhere and didn't check an ID or sold it to his friend probably more than likely. Probably, yeah. It was likely a conspiracy of sorts. Yeah. So that's July 19th, 2004. July 31st, 2004.

I don't know if this is I got mad at the friend for telling her what, but he's arrested for felonious assault now. Twelve days later, somebody got caught with the booze. You told me where you get 40. Damn it. I told you not to say shit if they catch you with that. Yeah.

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Now back to the show.

He seems, man, his crimes seem very explainable and narratable. You can follow his trail. Just with the arrest record, I can follow this man's trail. Explain his whole life. You can watch him escalate. The escalation is wild.

So that is July 31st that happened, felonious assault. We're just going to assume of the person he sold booze to that's all on him. Probably. Because that just makes sense to me. October 21st, 2004. So good for him. He went, what, two and a half whole months without getting arrested. That's pretty impressive for this guy. Pretty good. Not bad. He's arrested at this point for speeding.

Driving without a license, not wearing a seatbelt, reckless operation, operating a vehicle under the influence, never having a valid license ever. He just never got one. He didn't. This isn't suspended.

Yeah. You are ticketed for never getting a license. You're just driving around. Yeah. And also resisting arrest, of course. Okay. Didn't want to go to jail for this. Nope. And he's fucked up on something. That's a night. He's really having quite a night.

Now, I don't know what happened, but I'm going to assume after all of this stuff together, he probably got some jail time because I hope so. Otherwise, West Virginia is the nicest state in all 50. They're just like, oh, that's all right now. That's OK. He's learning. Yeah, he's learning. Next time he knows not to resist. But no.

And also the court dates, the sale or furnishing to an underage person from a while back, the theft charge from a while back, the felonious assault from July, and all of these things are all done in the same day at court.

So, oh, good Lord. That's a lot. He's like, that's embarrassing. The judge is the same. Like you have a chance of seeing the same judge. Yeah. All at once. You're going to see the same. And the judge probably has access to your juvenile records as well. So he's going, he can see where the trail has gone before that. But even if he doesn't, he can go, well, the moment you turned 18, you've been in this courtroom constantly. Yeah.

So if not in this courtroom, you've certainly been in handcuffs. This is all in a year and a half. He did all this shit. Those are so many separate arrests in a year and a half to get all these things. I mean, how real how many times are you in cuffs, dude? Salivating. Yeah. Criminal life. And if he's living in a small town, the cops know him by now. So they just see him. They go, well, let's go ahead and look at him. He's got something to arrest him for. I'm sure he always does.

Hey, Jacko, come here. Yeah. So I assume he got some jail time because there's no more arrest records that I can find. He may have been arrested more, but as far as slipping through my cracks here, which that doesn't sound good. I don't want anything slipping through my cracks. You got doubles? Doubles, babe.

The next one is February 27th, 2008. Is still in Belmont County, Ohio. Hasn't thought enough of himself to move yet to avoid all the cops who know you. Here he's arrested for no seatbelt, having an open container, and drug possession as well. Yeah. July 1st, 2008, so that's a couple months later, he's arrested for two counts of obstruction of justice.

I wonder what he did there. I don't know if he's withholding information from Congress or what he's doing, but that's what he's arrested for.

That can really go from a very small thing to a very big thing. Yeah. Refused to talk about Balco. Yeah, he didn't want to talk about Balco or his friend was getting arrested for being drunk in public and he went, hey, man, and put his hand on the cop's shoulder. That's also obstruction of justice. Anywhere from there to lying to a federal body is a...

The obstruction of justice. Aggression will not stand, man. Anywhere from that to Barry Bonds was not taking steroids. One or the other. To I did not have sexual relations. Somewhere in between there. Yeah. Anywhere you could be in that. So that's July 1st, 2008. Then he's still out. He's still not going back to jail for some reason. November 8th, 2008, he is pulled over for running a stop sign.

And they go, hey, dipshit, you don't have a license. You've never had a license, you stupid shit. Let's arrest you for that. Oh, by the way, you want to take a sobriety test? No, he doesn't. So that is a DUI and a refusal, which is an automatic revocation of his non-existent license that he's never, ever had. He's like, he could go try to apply for a license. He could get one in like 15 years. Like, he's got so much...

Penance to serve here to do this. So then finally, November 9th, 2009. So a year later, he apparently gets busted on April 27th, 2009 on for possessing a firearm.

This is in Wheeling, and it's possessing a firearm after already having been convicted of aggravated assault. So that's a felony and you're not allowed to have a firearm now. So he's arrested. And finally, this is a federal case. The tobacco, you know, ATF, alcohol, tobacco, firearms case.

They were the investigating body here by acting United States attorney announced that Gerald Wayne Jacko Jr. was sentenced to you, sir. They fuck off 63 months in federal prison. Five years followed by three years of supervised release. So we got to go see a probation officer, take a piss test type probation.

That is trouble. That's what he got, yeah, for answering a guilty plea to one count of possession of a firearm after having his record. So that's 2009. We don't know how long exactly he served in federal prison. I would hope, you know, a couple of minutes. Enough time. Enough, I'm not sure. But he ends up, we know for a fact that he's out by September 29, 2014 because he's arrested again.

Yeah. I don't think that's going to stop. No, this would certainly be within the window of the supervised release date also. So not good. He's on federal probation and he is arrested for theft, assault. Not good. No. And persistent disorderly conduct. Just he's never orderly. He just refuses to be orderly.

If we could give him like a lifetime charge, I believe it would be persistent disorderly conduct. Yeah, that seems like personality. Yeah. Not just a – Persistent assholery. Is that a charge?

There should be some umbrella charge that's just like, you're just a nuisance asshole and we have to put you away. We're tired of this. We just can't handle you, ever. It takes up too many tax dollars to keep arresting you. Can you be called, can you be federally adjudicated a tax burden? Just too much, yeah. We can't handle it. We can't afford you anymore. Sorry.

Sorry. You're like a puppy that had to be given away because they can't afford the food. It's just too expensive. Vet bills don't know what to do. Yeah. Let's re-home him to the South Pacific somewhere. It's what it has to be. In the middle on a dinghy. Yeah. It's what it has to be, it feels like. It's just not – I don't understand what the hell is the story with this guy, but we should definitely be able to umbrella charge him with this.

You're an adult encumbrance. A persistent asshole. Yeah. It's too much. We can't deal with you because, yeah, otherwise it's all these little ticky tack charges. How else would you do it? So September 29, 2014, I told you theft assault persistently a dipshit. But the case is closed due to, quote, unavailability of accused.

Which to me means that he's not available to go to local court because he is in federal prison for violating his federal probation. That's what I supposed. Yeah. And the feds aren't going to fucking the feds. And then West Virginia, neither of them are going to pay to transport a prisoner all the way here to deal with theft, assault and disorderly conduct charges. They just, it's not worth it for them. So maybe they should have though, just to add to his umbrella, but yeah,

We know that he's out by 2018 for a fact because he has a very busy month in 2018 that we're going to talk about. July through August is a lot for him. He's arrested on July 24th, 2018.

So I assume he probably went back to do the rest of his jail time, which is probably about three years. So he's probably out in late 2017, maybe something like that. He's arrested for drug abuse. This is the actual official charge. Drug abuse, marijuana, less than 100 grams. So that's a...

Big window. Yeah. Less, less than a, you know, a hundred, but more than I'm sure a small amount. So there you go. Who knows? He had a half ounce on him or something. More than slap on the wrist, go home. Yeah. For West Virginia. Then he's out though. Three days later. Good for him.

where he is July 27th, 2018, where he is pulled over for making an improper or prohibited turn. And then they find out he's driving with no license, of course, because every turn is prohibited. It's all every single turn. Every time he turns the key, it's prohibited. Never mind turning the car. Just the key. Adjusting the seat isn't really allowed.

I didn't even go anywhere. It was the ignition, sir. Yeah, you're not allowed to be here. And then also operating a vehicle under the influence as well. Of course. Does he operate one sober? Somehow, even though he's got this gigantic umbrella of assholery...

So many charges. He was arrested for the weed on July 24th. He was still out July 27th. And then he's still out August 1st. So... My God. He's just going in, coming right back out again. Which is wild for a guy who's done all this prison time. That's... It's... And...

And a man who clearly every day on the street is not living the way your laws are passed to hope you behave. No, definitely not. But the problem, I think he still gets bail because if you – they do bail based on

If you show up for court, if you'll leave. Right. So there's a lot showing up. There's a lot of these persistent criminals that people go, how'd they get bail? Because they always show up for court. That's why. Yeah, that's how they got bail. That's why you have bail. Otherwise, they wouldn't they wouldn't put any bail on you because you're not guilty yet.

You're still innocent until you're proven guilty. Right. Bail's not meant necessarily. It is in some regards to protect the public. But generally, it's to give somebody the opportunity. They're still innocent, technically. That's what I mean. And you can say, yeah, there's a lot you can do there with that. Yeah, there's a big window of what you can do with that kind of shit. So August 1st, 2018.

All right. Let's introduce a guy here. Trevor Vossen, V-O-S-S-E-N, Vossen. He's born in 1991, so he's a young dude. I mean, this is a very young dude. He's not even 30 yet here. His parents are Sarah Lynn and Edward Junior is his dad. And he's got a son also named Landon. There you go. Thank you. And he's got a brother and a sister named

And all this type of thing. Now, he also has a girlfriend...

We'll talk about here. And her name is Lauren Cree Jenkins, Cree dash Jenkins. And she goes by Lulu. Lauren does. Everybody calls her. Everybody calls her Lulu. So Lulu was born in 1990. She's from Wheeling. Her parents are Rodney and Dolores Jenkins here. And she's got sisters. She's got a brother. And she's currently five months pregnant.

Oh, Lulu. With Trevor's child. So, yeah. So they're pregnant. Now, something happened between Gerald Jacko, our umbrella of asshole, and Trevor Vossen. This was... I guess he was...

He got put in jail in 2018, apparently. Vossen? Vossen did. No, no, no. Jacko did for a robbery he committed in 2018. So that wasn't even on his list, so I don't even know. But he got arrested for that. He was incarcerated for a while. And apparently he thought, Gerald thought, that Vossen stole from him while he was in jail. So he was upset with him. So he apparently had just gotten out of jail. He's already been arrested a couple of times.

And he's pissed off at him and he's seeking revenge on Trevor Vossen, this Jacko guy. Because he went to his house and took some shit from him while he was in. Stole something. We don't know if he actually stole from him. We have no fucking idea what happened here. Now...

What we do know is this isn't a guy that you want to seek revenge on you, it seems like. Vossen? No, no. Gerald Jack. Asshole. Jerry Asshole Umbrella? Yeah. He seems like a bad man. He also seems like he has no fear of incarceration, which is a... Yeah. When someone doesn't have fear of consequences, they're a scary person to have mad at you because who knows? Yeah, I see.

I see him floating through the air like Mary Poppins holding a giant umbrella that has like the print of an asshole on it. That's how he arrives. And somebody's head on top of the little point that comes out like why they named Wheeling Wheeling. That's how he came into Wheeling.

the skull of one of his victims on his little umbrella. An asshole print umbrella. Yeah, wee, coming in. Oh, by the way, I haven't showed you a picture. All the wrinkles. Let me show you a picture of this guy, too. Oh, dear God, I'm so afraid. It'll make the umbrella thing seem even sweeter. There he is, Jimmy. Ah!

He's got a clown face. Yep. He's got multiple tattoos on his face. Clown face tattoos. Clown face. He's got, well, this is funny. He's got tattoos on his neck that come all the way up to his chin. Up to the chin. Which is fine, except that the big one in the middle that goes all the way from his shirt line up to the top part of his chin there is a big old dollar sign.

Is it really? It's a big, giant doll. Yeah, look here. I'll show you. Look closer. All the rich guys have that tattoo. Oh, yeah. The Million Dollar Man, Ted DiBiase, had little dollar signs all over his suit. Negative space shading, too. Oh, it's awful. The dollar sign is skin tone. Everything around it is ink. That is wild. It's very jelly. It's very jelly. It screams. It screams jelly. Then around his eyes. It screams wealthy man. He looks class is what it really screams. Class. Class.

Looks like he has a tee time around 8 for a foursome. Well, he got that just in case the country club was being a little twatty with him. He was like, you know what? I'm rich. Don't worry. Yeah, don't worry about it. When I go for my interview, I don't want him to have anything to say. Show exactly who I am. It's fascinating. The two choices for the diamonds above and below the eyes. It goes around his eye.

Yeah. The tattoo. He's got like a point that comes down almost like a war paint looking thing. Yeah. And then it's tattoo around his eye connecting the two but it just looks like a line that connects the two. Yeah. Then on the other side on his left side they don't connect. He's just got a plop of tattoos above his eye and a plop below his eye. So I don't know what the fuck he's doing. It looked like he got drunk at a frat house.

He looks like he got pinned down and tattooed in jail is what it looks like. You're going to have this. Draw dumb shit on his face. Fuck this guy. And just like, you know, you want me to rape him? No, no, just draw dumb shit on him. It'll be way worse. I'm only good at triangles. Well, fill him in. Fill him in, man. Just fill him in. Can you do dollar signs?

I need a negative one. Holy shit. So he's got a couple of girlfriends as well. Let's we'll talk about that. What? Gerald does. Of course, he has a couple of girlfriends. Oh, yeah. He's got he's got several people willing to do very awful shit for him, which is interesting. One of these women is Dana Marie Bowman, and she's born in 1988. And her house, she has a house in Wheeling Island there. Yeah. And.

Gerald, his plan is to lure Trevor Vossen to this house so he can seek revenge upon him. Okay? Okay. That's not a quote from him, obviously. He wouldn't say that. I will seek revenge upon him. I don't feel, yeah. Yeah, I don't think that's what he said. He likely doesn't speak very well. So that's what he keeps saying to Dawn that he's trying to do. Basically, I'm going to take these people to your house.

Then on August 3rd, 2018, Trevor and Lulu are reported missing by their family. Both of them? Both of them are reported missing by the family. All three of them, really? Yeah. So what happened to them? We'll find out. Okay. Apparently...

I don't know how he did it, but he somehow, Gerald somehow lured these two to the house, got them to come over. I don't know if it was, hey, hey, we'll squash the beef. This is crazy. To make up. I know you heard I was pissed off at you, but I'm less pissed than you said. Just get matching face tattoos. Let's do it. Hey, you know what? I can put a dollar sign on you that's going to get you in any country club in this nation. So please, come on over. We'll make it up.

So during all of this, Dawn Bowman or Dana, I'm sorry, Dana Marie Bowman, she is at the house and she's kind of wandering around while our guy Gerald here is with the other two, with Lulu and Trevor in the kitchen. Okay. So Dana is wandering around and then she says that she heard three shots fired. Oh.

Yes. We know that there's a fourth shot that's fired as well because there's four shell casings. But she says she heard three shots fired in her residence. OK, then she went to the front of the house to compose herself.

After hearing the gunshots because she heard because, you know, Gerald wasn't saying like, oh, man, I'm going to have them over. We're going to have beers. And then, you know, do you have ribs because we're going to barbecue? Yeah. He was like, I'm going to fuck these people up when he had his motherfuckers tried to steal from me. You know, that's what he was saying. So she was probably she heard the gunshots. She knew things are bad here. She said she came back to the kitchen.

A little too early, let's just say, because or a little too late. One or the other. When she entered the kitchen, she is frozen by the sight of Gerald with a large kitchen knife repeatedly and very, very violently stabbing Trevor in the neck. Oh, my. Screaming at him to die like a man. Just because I guess he wasn't dying. He was still sitting up and he's hacking at him going, die like a man, motherfucker. Fucking screaming at him.

Whoa. How'd you like to walk into your kitchen and see that? No. Huh. I mean, it's like three gunshots are enough, but this is like, I mean, it's brutal. Think about you're getting stabbed in the neck. Every time he takes that knife out, there's blood spraying everywhere. Yeah, yeah. And he's screaming, die like a man, calling him names and shit. Yeah. It's wild. And you got to imagine you're seeing this, so you're going to-

You're about to experience some pain, too. It's not what she had in mind as what was going to happen, I don't think. So then, Gerald takes Trevor down to the basement, his body. He kills him, stabs him to death on the floor. After he's finally satisfied that he's dead, he takes him down to the basement. Now...

He also found out, too. So she said she went to bed that night not expecting to wake up in the morning. She figured that in the night, Gerald would come kill her probably. But she fucking woke up the next day. Oh, boy. I was like, that's a surprise. That's interesting. At that point, Gerald told her that he's all done. I'm all done.

With what? And she said, yeah, with what? I saw you kill the dude. And she said, yeah. Gerald said, yes. He's dead, obviously. You saw that. Also, Lulu's dead, too. Don't worry about her. Everybody's dead. All taken care of. Just done. Did like the changing of the dealers at the casino. All done. But, sir, she's pregnant. And it's five months very obviously. Yeah, it's pretty clear. That's fucked up.

So he ends up taking the bodies, putting them in these big white plastic bags like trash bags. Yeah. And taking them away from the house. Okay. Now, there is fucking blood everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. On multiple floors. It's a horror scene, this house, as you can imagine. Two people brutally murdered and dragged around.

Now, he goes to an abandoned house in southern West Virginia that we'll talk about here. Yeah. And a neighbor...

near the house saw that there was a guy that he didn't know that he identifies as Gerald due to distinctive dipshit face tattoos. Incredibly identifiable man. Yeah, literally there's nobody else with a giant dollar sign and those stupid eye tattoos at the same time. They don't exist on any other human except for this fucking idiot. So if you're going to be a criminal, blend. Think ahead of time. Don't get distinctive tattoos. Yeah.

Keep your hair normal. Don't be wild. Look as normal as you can. Blend in. Yeah, D.B. Cooper. Keep that in mind. There's a reason Carlo Gambino died quietly in his house and not in prison because he blended right in, real quiet. Didn't look like a criminal. Nope.

So they this person, the neighbor called the police and reported somebody quote that there's a quote pile of obviously burned material on a concrete pad in the backyard of the house. OK. Gerald was burning things back there on a concrete pad on a concrete path. Now, he also at some point recruits another guy who we never find out who the fuck it is. There's somebody else involved here. OK.

who he forces. I'm sure this guy doesn't, you know, if he requests something from you, you know that it's probably not a request. You need to do it. Or you die, obviously. Or you die. Yeah. He said, I need help with something. I need you, because you got, come on down here. I know it's a pain in the ass. Get in the car. I need you to help dismember a couple of people with saws if you can do that. One of them's a pregnant lady, too, so we're going to really, it's

It's going to be a banner day. Or I die, obviously. So, sure, I'll be over. Sure. Yeah. So he does that. He dismembers their bodies with a saw into many, many parts. We don't have an exact number of parts. Really? But it's not like below the knee. It's like a lot of parts.

Yeah, because he wants them. Judging by the gal's ability to count to four, their counting isn't going to be good. No, probably terrible. Yeah, I don't trust her at all. Can't trust her bullet count.

She can't count to four. Four. I heard three. You missed. I don't know. He might not even have been saying die like a man. He could have been saying anything. We can't trust her. He could have said, I love the movie Mannequin. She doesn't know. She's like, oh, man. He said he liked it. I mean, if you say you like Mannequin 2, obviously that's a crime in itself. Me shat Taylor. He's great. He's great.

So he does this. By the way, even the police say this other man was forced into helping. There was no. Yeah, it's it's how it wasn't. Hey, buddy, come on over. It was you get over here or your next type of shit. So two days later now. So he dismembers the body and has the body sitting there all dismembered. OK, loads him back in white plastic garbage bags.

And then drives the remains further south outside of Beckley, West Virginia, to a place on Sullivan Road. Seems like it's in the town of Coal City. Literally, Coal City. Which is very far down there as far as southern West Virginia. Nowhere near here. Now, in all of this, when the cops were called to come investigate the burning, they found in the burn pile bones,

Blades, like saw blades. Oh, boy. And shell casings all found in the burn pile. Who thought that saw blades and shell casings would fucking disappear in a fire?

Yeah. You ever been camping before? Yeah. I mean, in those fire pits that are left out there, there are shit piles of cans. There's a Mountain Dew can sitting there. And that's thin-ass gauge metal. That is aluminum. That's barely... That's not brass. No, that's not a saw blade. A saw blade is steel.

Yeah. It's tempered already. You're not going to fucking melt it from burning it unless it's really. It was created with fire. Yeah. I could see. Let's say you're dumb and you don't understand the actual temperature. Let's say you're. James, are you telling me that that man, you see his face and you don't assume. Let's say you're a moron who's been getting arrested constantly ever since handcuffs could fit around your wrists.

So they didn't just slide off because you're too small. Yeah. Let's just say you're that idiot. And you think that I can build a campfire and bones will burn because they cremate people. So that's fire. This is fire. All fires fire. Yeah. I don't realize that one fire is like 500 degrees and one is like 3000 degrees. I don't realize there's a different temperature there.

Let's say you're an idiot, okay? Yeah. That's one thing. You're a moron. You don't understand that. But to not get that a fucking tempered steel saw blade will not burn in a fire and that your shell casings are going to be there afterwards. Yeah. You're dumb enough to put a giant dollar sign tattoo on your throat. That's how dumb you are.

What do you got, black triangles on your face or something? Yeah, what do you got? Non-tribal, tribal-looking shit? Like, it's one thing if you're, like, from an island and you were done. You got these to show you were a fucking man or whatever. Which tribe you're in. He's from Belmont County, Ohio. He's just a white dude from Belmont County, Ohio. Looks like an asshole. He's certainly showing what tribe he's a part of. Oh, God, yes, a dumb one. The ignorant one. The dipshit tribe.

Another thing that was there, a black bag is found nearby that contains, this is perfect, contains both Vossen and Lulu's fingerprints on it. Just to put them together of who's there. The one thing that's easily incineratable. No, that's not. Very flammable thing, man. Tried with the saw blade, but not the bag.

They've got their fingerprints now. Wow. That is fucking amazing. This is behind... They also, later on, will find bones and burned material behind an abandoned house on South Euron Street in Wheeling Island, which is, we believe, Dawn's house that later on she took off from. So they said that this house that they went to

Because Bowman's going to end up telling on him here because she's just going to say Dawn is freaked out. She does not like this at all. So when they go to talk to her, she goes, oh, my God, he's saying die like a man. And I'm sure she just spilled it all.

So they said that when they walked in the house, they didn't think that anything had happened in the house because it had been so thoroughly cleaned. What? Yes. The reason why they found all the burn shit behind the house that didn't have anything to do with the victims is because this is a quote from the police. Quote, she burned some of the flooring that she removed from the kitchen. She removed the flooring and burned it. What?

She's an excellent housekeeper. That is fucking impressive. Yeah. That's like if Mike Brady killed Carol, Alice would do that. You know what I mean? Like that's tidying up, tidying up a little bit here and then replace them as well as clothing and other items that were used to clean up anything used in the cleanup. Everything. She burned everything. She dropped a new floor in the house. And then she took some of those floorboards and threw them over the hill in front of her house into a small ravine as well.

They said she did all this work on her own, by the way. Wow. Didn't do it. No one helped her. She just did flooring work on her own. She just went and got a bunch of flooring and.

repatched it in and did all that shit. Dawn the Builder. She is incredible. That is fucking impressive. They said a small piece of bone from the pile will eventually be sent from the second pile where the people were to the Smithsonian Institute of Anthropology to find out who the fuck it is because this is 2018. We can find out who you are from the bone fragment now. So they said also in this burn pile at the

at Bowman's residence now, the other burn pile, were parts of a blue moving type blanket. You know, those big like U-Haul blankets. Diamond stitched ones. Yeah. Parts of the blanket were also identified in the burn pile down here.

In coal city and the other place. So there's three to all three places where there's burned stuff. Pieces of burn blanket are all there. Dense blankets that do not burn. Again, they're meant not to burn. Those are so thick. Anything else you want to put in there? Like a, like a fireman's suit. You want to see if that goes, what else do you want to see? If emergency blanket, some tinfoil, perhaps diamonds do diamonds burn. Is that how you get them into that shape? I don't know. Let's find out. Let's see.

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Make Packet the first stop on your back-to-school journey. We get support from Dove. Hey y'all, it's your girl Kiki Palmer, host of the Wondery Podcast. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. Let me cut to the chase. Did you know that in many states across the U.S., it's still not illegal to discriminate against people based on the way their hair grows out of their head? To deny Black folks from jobs and opportunities because they have braids, locks, twists, or bantu knots? That's messed

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Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment, but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

So there's a car that he was seen driving. And we'll talk about where he was seen driving because he's seen driving on film.

Yeah, he is really fucked. He's really not a good criminal here. He's driving a Jeep Liberty, and the owner of the Jeep Liberty was a woman named Holly Mills, who is the wife of his best friend. Yeah, now everybody knows she drives a piece of shit. She drives a piece of shit Liberty. Poor Holly. That's nice, too, your friend. How would you like...

You're the friend. And he probably just said, borrow my wife's car because it's big enough. And now she's like, you let this guy take bodies in my car. In my Liberty? In my only, yeah. As if I couldn't hate that car already. And I can't afford another one. And now you put bodies in it. Did he at least take the car seats out first? Or do they have viscera on them now? What can we do? Now the cops are going to want that car. Shit.

So she received, I guess there was text messages from from Gerald's other girlfriend, Samantha England, that England, she had texted this girl with the liberty and told her that she herself, Samantha England, had to, quote, get up to Wheeling to help him clean up a mess.

At his other girlfriend. This man. Yes. How does he do it? This is wild. How does he do it? It's the tattoos around the eyes. It's hypnotizing. Fuck, they love him, huh? So using the vehicle, he loaded up personal belongings from the house and asked Mills, the girlfriend there with the Jeep, to follow him from Wheeling all the way down to Beckley. That's where in Beckley's where he cut it up and then he dumped him. Okay, so that's how this goes.

Now, August 14th, 2018, there's a guy named Jeffrey Browning who is on a rural area off of Sullivan Road near Cole City, and he's looking for firewood to heat his home.

So he's, yeah. I mean, this guy's like, it's going to be cold. And it's August. So, I mean, I don't know if he's saving up for winter. Yeah. So he ends up coming across the burned remains of two human beings here in a pretty brutal way looking for firewood. Yeah. He's like, I don't think that'll burn. Oh, is this a saw blade? Everyone knows saw blades don't burn. Yeah.

The West Virginia Medical Examiner's Office works with the Raleigh Sheriff's Office here trying to figure out who the fuck these people are. And it's bones and charred remains found along the road near Coal City, West Virginia. They said the bodies were discovered chopped into many pieces.

It was very, very brutal. It was very gruesome. Very little remained in terms of being able to gather clues. That is so fucked up. It's so fucked. At some point, he just gave up in the burning and was like, that's as much as it's going to burn in a campfire.

And just ditched it. And just ditched it because there's bones and then there is like chunks that were obviously attempted to be burned but still have flesh on them that are charred. Oh, my God. It's fucking horrific, man. It's absolutely horrific. It's sickening. I see you covering your mouth. Yeah. And I'm going to throw up. It's gross. Lyle, I just saw it in my head. I know what to get this poor guy. He's looking for wood.

For Christ's sake. This poor bastard is thinking months ahead of heating his house. That's how he's not in great shape here. And this is what he discovers. This could send him over the edge. This poor guy was looking for an ash. I found ash and it's the wrong kind. Wrong kind. Oh God. So the remains were sent to the Smithsonian Institute's national museum of natural history department of anthropology in Washington, DC. Um,

In Wheeling, they find out that they found a missing person that was from Wheeling down there, two missing people. And the only thing they can't figure out is Vossen, his vehicle's never found, ever. Never found. It's a white two-door 2002 Honda Accord with a West Virginia license plate, 73K986.

It went missing the same time he went missing, and it's never, ever, ever found. Never found. Never found. A two-door Accord. A two-door. Now, I don't know if he has connections. Well, he probably has. If he knows somebody with a chop shop, that's all I can imagine. If he's this much of a career criminal, he probably knows where to offload a car. You know what I mean? If he can take apart people, he can certainly take apart an Accord. Or knows somebody who knows how to pop the trunk off. Yeah.

They said that was one of the things the cops really wanted to find, because if you can find a vehicle, there's obviously physical evidence in vehicles sometimes and you can get a lot out of that. So the Wheeling police chief said a young man and a young woman were murdered and dismembered. It's time to do the right thing. Someone out there knows about this and has information, but has not discussed that with investigators. Now is the time to do so. Do the right thing.

So it's at this point where Don comes forward and says, fuck, yeah, I got to tell you some stuff here. They say that the bones that were discovered had straight edges that indicated dismemberment along with a very powerful saw, if you can cut them straight. Yeah, because that's not a hand saw would leave smooth grooves. It's a power saw, like a circular saw thing.

Either that or like a fucking sawzall. Or a sawzall, yeah, something like that. Something that's going to cut it smooth. Even a sawzall, I feel like you're probably going to leave. If it gets into the groove, though, it'll come right off. Yeah, that's true. It'll come right off. Super smooth. The blade does bounce, but if you get it into the meat part of the blade.

I imagine it'll go right through it real fast. Probably, yeah. Well, I mean, in our experience it has anyway, right? In the past. Yeah, in the past. I mean, whenever I'm just numbering a corpse, I'm just, you know. I cut a bathtub in half with one like fucking butter. That's all I know. Yeah, so a leg, it'll probably work, I would assume. The bones are hard, though. So the other thing that helped in the identification of these two people is that

At this site, along with the charred bones and remains, are also his glasses, Vossen's glasses. Oh, boy. So they were like, well, these are his glasses. So that's a helpful one there. Tell me there's somebody that has glasses that don't have a fingerprint on them. You know what I mean? Oh, God. All over the lens. All over the place.

So the photos are taken at the burn pit where the dismembered bodies were set on fire of Austin and Jenkins. And, uh, they also detailed multiple tools found at the site as well. So that's, that's interesting. Um,

Now, the inside of the house, they said, of the murder scene, they said, you might not have imagined that a murder occurred in this house due to the lengths taken to clean up the crime scene. In addition to the replacing floorboards, they repainted the walls, or she did anyway, Dawn did, repainted the walls, spackled holes left in walls by bullets,

She did it all. She's like fucking handy as shit over here. She does drywall and flooring. Yeah. I don't know how to spackle, really. I don't know how to put that shit together. It's very obvious if I've done it. You're going to see it. You're going to go, wow, how many bullet holes are in these fucking walls? But she spackled and then repainted.

That's unbelievable. That means she primed and painted. Good for her. So the problem is, even if you go to these extreme lengths, she didn't just go around with some wipes and get some shit up.

Even if you go to these extreme lengths, it's really hard to get everything because it's not like it was just one gunshot in one way. There was three, four gunshots and then also just brutal, almost cutting a man's head off with a kitchen knife. Blood everywhere. So they said that cadaver dogs indicated a spot of blood on a cabinet in the house.

Wow. That they ended up finding. When the cabinet was sprayed with luminol, they found blood there. And they said it was the lower part of the cabinet as well as the cabinet doors. When they started spraying it around there, they found a lot more blood. Yeah. Yeah. She, I guess, cleaned it up and thought it was clean. She just wiped it off and said, well, it's all the way down there. No one's going to see that. There's a protein in there, Terry. You can't get that out. Nope. They said another spot in between a pipe going down to the basement.

Oh, it went so far. It hit the pipe and traveled. And went down the pipe because there'll be a hole in the floor where the pipe comes from in an old house. And that's where it does. It drips down. They said they swabbed that. And that also tested positive for blood. Shit. So they were like, there's fucking blood everywhere. And they think that was where Jenkins was shot. They think that was her blood over there. And then in the cabinet, they think that was Vossen's blood. So...

Anyway, after he dismembers these bodies, he hops in that Jeep Liberty, borrows it. There's a video of him at a toll booth with a large plastic bag in his back seat.

bulging plastic bag full of body parts in his backseat right on the video at the tall booth. You can see it right behind him. So he's got not even in the trunk in his back fucking seat just corpses cut off burn. He's got he's got that face displayed in the driver's window and a bag in the backseat. The first thing you think is that's a body. This is like a sack of White Castle sitting back there just gonna

He's got a bunch of sliders in a bag. I don't think he's headed to Goodwill to donate clothes. No, he's going to the big box in a parking lot. He's going to go drop off all the old kids' clothes there. He said, you know what? I am just hungry. Oh, boy. All this dismemberment and driving around with bodies really makes you peckish. So I'm going to go ahead and stop at the St. Clairsville Mall and go to the Steak and Shake. Stop it. Because I need meat right now.

I can't imagine. Those fries are pretty legit. They're all right, but it's okay. A burger? You're going to eat meat now? He's going to go eat meat like he's, yeah. Wow. That's fucking wild. They found this is the toll booth between Charleston and Beckley. Another angle of the same toll booth video, by the way, showed the trash bag stored in the vehicle. It can be seen through the sunroof of the Jeep because it's the above one, so they can see in through the sunroof and through the side here. Yeah.

The police will say that they found it incredibly cold on his part that he was that he stopped for dinner at the Steak and Shake. Later on, the prosecutor will say not only did he stop for dinner, he went inside with his car stinking and smelling of what was in it. He went inside.

He went in and sat down. He's like, I might want a refill on this fucking Fanta, so I got to sit here. I got to get my money's worth. It's free refill. Wow. He said Jacko sat down. He had a meal with Miss Mills and Samantha, his girlfriend. He took...

hold the fuck on yes he took samantha's girlfriend who wasn't the girl in the house she's busy ripping up floorboards and turning into bob vila over here she's got a punch in for christ yeah she's she's watching hgtv in the background at least it's 2018 she got her square and her fucking her chop saw out i've seen so many reno shows i am on top of this she said that was gonna get white cabinets anyway so this is good

So he then also brought his friend's girlfriend, too, or the wife of his. Wow. Okay.

While his car sat in the parking lot next to whoever could have smelled it. Anybody could have been next to it. You're going to smell it. It's burnt flesh. And blood. And blood. You can't not smell that. You think the scent of fast food overwhelmed it, though? Honestly, French fries and burgers. They do, sir. Steak and Shake serves those fries. Or the onion straws on their burgers, too. So there's onions in the air.

fries forget it also char if you smell charred meat and you're at a burger place you assume somebody's cooking something in there who knows so that's what I would do anyway but that's cold blood he said come on inside and they all sat and had a meal in the place acting casual as fuck okay they said that's the kind of person that he is emotionless cold blooded and a killer

Yeah, he's a bad guy. Bad, bad man. I gotta be honest, James. I'm afraid of those chicks, too. I'm afraid of all the chicks in this story. Are you kidding me? Those chicks are dangerous. Yeah, one knows how to spackle over her shortcomings, which I'm afraid of, number one. She knows how to spackle over murder. That's scary.

This other chick has his girlfriend doesn't mind that he was not only hanging out with another woman, but killing people at her house. Yeah. You think like if you hung out with another woman at her house, wouldn't Emily be like, why were you over there? Sarah would be like, who the fuck are you hanging out with? No less killing people over there. You trust her to kill in front of her. You guys must be fucking.

If it's my car that you're borrowing, I'm riding the passenger seat. That girlfriend is also riding in the back seat. With the body. With the body. Yeah. She's dangerous. That's a dangerous. Well, she is dangerous, as we'll find out, Samantha England. Oh? Oh, yeah. So then they find in the car DNA evidence linking everybody to the car. Of course.

So there's no excuses there. So they have him obviously dead to rights. We've got you on video in and out of the car. We've got the body on video in the car. So they know that it's clearly, you know, that these are the suspects they're looking for. Yeah. But they don't know where they are right away.

Why? Until they're found doing this. Okay. This is August 19th, 2018, about a week after the bodies are found. This is the State Line Cafe, which is, quote, a gambling parlor in Ohio County. It's one of those little casinos like in the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia where there's people shirtless playing slot machines. Yeah.

While a really terrible band plays. Yeah, while a bad band plays. It's just a little gambling joint. And they keep the front doors locked. This is how classy this place is. They keep them locked like it's a fucking brothel and they buzz you in.

Password style. No, they just buzz you in when you come to the door. So they look out, make sure you're not wearing a mask and holding a fucking 45 automatic, and then they let you in. Or a badge. Or a badge. No, this is legal. It's legal gambling. Yeah, no, it's a legal business, the Stateline Cafe here. It's not like a backroom business. There's sound machines and shit. Oh, it's just out in the open. It's just we don't want unsavories in here. Just unsavory to a certain level. Which you can't, like I said, unless they have a ski mask and a 45, how do you know who's planning what?

You have no fucking idea. You're letting this guy in? Yeah, you look at him, you go, oh, God, no. He's the guy you wouldn't let in. So there are no standards, we figured out. Okay. But no, he, I guess it's locked. There's a woman named Shauna Cobb who's the only person working there at the moment. She controls who enters the joint. One person on shift. One. One.

It's 1130 p.m. So I guess it's slowed down. What's the point? One person on shift. Okay. So there's a buzz at the door and Cobb, Shauna Cobb looks out and sees Samantha England is standing out there just by herself. So she unlocks the door. Samantha England enters.

She, England plays some slots for a while, does some machines, does her thing and then gets up to leave. When she gets up to leave, she then you can open the door yourself to get out. As she opened the door to get out. Here comes Gerald Jacko through the door. So this is all a plan. It's all a big setup. She opens the door, lets him in. Not only him, but also another man, Jeremiah Dunn. They rush in wearing masks and gloves.

Oh, boy. So this is what I mean. This lock the door thing is really pretty pointless. Yeah. So you just have to have a plan to let the person in, just to open the door. It's easy. Masks and gloves and one held a gun while Jacko held a machete over his head. Is that right? Masked, gloved, coming in, one gun, one giant machete going, give us the money, bitch. This is...

Oh, boy. This is terrifying, obviously. He points a gun at her. Or they point a gun and the machete. He's holding it up. I'll chop you. She, Shauna Cobb, opens the cash register and leads them to the cafe safe. They then tie her up with zip ties and duct tape. Yep.

and leave her there and the three of them jeremiah dunn gerald and samantha all leave making off with about six thousand dollars which is not a bad haul it's certainly uh you can eat dinner yeah you're okay but that's not that's not gonna stretch you're gonna have to retire you're not gonna go fucking let's go down to down mexico way and retire here yeah with two grand a pot

So this is how dumb these people are. Again, if they weren't so fucking dumb, they might be killing people right now. So after they left, this woman who was left behind, the Shauna Cobb, the woman who works there,

She noticed that Samantha England left her purse next to the machine she was gambling at. That's a big red flag. She left her fucking purse in there with not only her ID in it, but also Gerald's ID is in there too.

That's what the fucking stupid can you be? She's about to die. It's one thing to leave fingerprints or DNA. They left their identification with their fucking purse next to it. You can't get any dumber than that. Yeah. The whole point of fingerprints and DNA is to get identification. You circumvent that whole process. Just skipped it all.

That's why it's probably for the best. It's like, I don't know if it's Darwin or whatever, that dumb people commit the most crimes. Thank fuck. Because imagine if only smart people killed. There would be so much less catching of people if it wasn't for dummies like this. So they end up three days later, they capture Gerald, Samantha, and Jeremiah Dunn as well. And.

And they're going to be indicted on first degree robbery and presentation of a firearm during the commission of a felony. Oh, these are not good charges to have. Those are those are those are 40 year sentences, especially with a history of robbery and assault and violence. All this is bad. It's even worse that Samantha flips on him.

Oh, yeah. She decides she's going to flip. She reaches a plea agreement with the state in July 2019. Under that agreement, she will testify against Gerald at his trial in exchange for a recommendation of this is what she's doing this for. This is her prize, a recommendation of a 40 year incarceration.

She's doing this to only get 40 years. Yeah, she knows very well what the stakes are in this game. Wow. No recommendation for a gun-specific finding. In other words, no aggravator with the gun. And a dismissal of the second count of the indictment. So 40 years is what she's making a deal for here. The two of them attended a pretrial hearing together. This is just for the robbery, by the way. They still don't know about... They're still putting the pieces together of the murders. They don't know he did that yet.

Okay. They're not positive. Son of a bitch. During this hearing where Samantha and Gerald are there, during this hearing, it's reported that she has made a deal with the prosecution and is going to testify against him. And now they know. He looks over like, are you fucking kidding me? They're in the same court.

Yeah. Also, that she had made a lengthy statement implicating him, which they had recorded. So they're like, we have this long thing. She's already done it. All this shit. So 10 days later, she appears for her plea hearing. And before the hearing begins, they're just about to start. She turns to her attorney and says she doesn't want the plea anymore.

Why not? She doesn't want it. So she said that they had a conversation, her attorney, and she agreed to speak with the assistant prosecutor as well about it. She told her attorney and the assistant prosecutor that she would not testify against Gerald. When they said, well, are you afraid of him? She said, absolutely and definitely were her two responses. Terrified. I'm going to die. Yeah. She said, quote, I just can't do it. I won't testify against him.

So the court at the time found that she made these decisions knowingly, intelligently, and without the threat or coercion of force or duress. It's threat from him but not from the state. So that's not their problem. If you don't want to take the plea, then I guess you're going to fucking trial after telling us what you did like an idiot. Yeah.

That wasn't in some kind of pre-proffer. That was during evidence that they can use. You did this. Yeah. It wasn't like beforehand. They do a proffer session where you'll say everything you did, but they're not allowed to use any of it.

Okay, under the circumstances of we will use it only if this. If you agree to this. Yeah, you tell us what you know. We'll offer you what we offer you. And if you don't accept it, then we can't use what you told us, and that's that. So that's how that goes. Or we can't use any info you gave us to lead to anything else or anything. It's called queen for a day, they call it. You're allowed to be. I can tell you all the horrible things I've done, and it's perfectly fine. We will all eat cake. We'll all eat it.

So the phone calls from jail come up now. Why are you afraid of him? Well, what did he say? We have a lot of phone calls with their exact conversation. So let's talk about it because it's hilarious. Jesus Christ. It's golden. I can't wait to hear this. So these are phone calls he made to her that were pre this is these are phone calls. I'm sorry. There's phone calls he made to Don Bowman now. Okay. That were previously used. But his defense attorney argues that there was no prominent evidence.

Oh my God. Okay. No prominent signage near the phones that he used saying that his calls could be monitored. So that means he didn't know. Meanwhile, you're not at your house, man. There's signs everywhere. And when you get on the phone, there's a voice that tells you this call is monitored, but it's not hidden at all. They don't tell you this is a fucking outside line. Everything's cool. Talk at will. It's not what it says there. You're monitored, stupid. That's it.

Don't worry, this one's clean. Period. Jesus Christ. It's all clean. In fact, if it said that. This is our clean phone, everybody. If it said that. Drunk deals, things like that. You should know. Yeah. This is the place to do it. You should know 100% that that's taped. This is very taped.

So they said that he would have definitely known that inmate calls are monitored since when they come in, they sign paperwork in the beginning. And that is that part saying they understand that there's signs of recordings located by the phones and an audio warning on the line telling them and the other people that they're talking to that these can be monitored and are monitored.

So he made a call to Dawn in 2018 to coerce her into not pleading guilty to a crime, thereby allowing him to avoid a robbery conviction. This is from another thing. Okay. Because I guess they're talking about while he tried to say don't let these into court because there were signs surrounding the phones that may have been defaced that said the calls are monitored. So because inmates, you know, put graffiti.

Put graffiti on them. You don't know. Somebody scratched their street name into it. So now you can't read it. Yeah. They the judge found, though, that the requirement for the state to check that the written notices are in place and not defaced every minute of every day is an impossible burden. Yeah, that's crazy. That's why every call is the audio thing. It doesn't matter. They said time signs can be temporarily tampered with, defaced or destroyed. But in the Division of Corrections, repairs or replaces the signs that are damaged. So it should be fine. And it's OK. Yeah.

Now, calls he made to Samantha England here, they were both housed at the North Central Regional Jail. Same jail. Okay. No, he was at the North Central Regional Jail, and she was at the Northern Regional Jail, which are different jails. Two different jails. Okay.

That's not confusing or anything. Fucking West Virginia. We're sending him to North Regional. No, we're sending him to Northern Regional, you fucking idiot. Jesus Christ. Assistant 2. What the? Jesus, that's terrible. So they obtained recordings of these jailhouse phone calls and discovered that Gerald was not happy with her plan, Samantha England's plan, to testify against him.

On July 23rd of the next year, 2019, he told a third party during a telephone call that Samantha England's plea agreement was bad news and that he, quote, needed to keep in contact with his bitch. Yeah.

He said, I got to keep in contact with my bitch to keep her from testifying against me. Yeah. Is what he said. So it's bad news. Yeah. Otherwise, he said, quote, she gets weak. And when she gets weak, she starts telling lies on me. That was his quote. He said, I'm her source of strength. Without me, she'll just crumble and give in to whatever. Yeah. So later that day, he arranged with this guy that he's talking to on the phone to merge calls with her.

This is we've seen this a couple of times. They do three way calls so inmates can talk to each other. So there's a three way call where he's involved and they talk to each other here. So on the first of these three, three calls, by the way, or I think there might be more. Actually, Samantha said that she was told to call the number and told the third party she wanted to talk to Gerald at least twice a day.

So when Gerald joined the call, he told Samantha that he could be anything she wanted him to be if she was only loyal and honest and true to him. I could be anything you want me to be from a separate jail cell if you just agree to sit in your jail cell for the rest of your life and we'll be all we can be together. Fucking idiots.

So he made other statements such as, quote, I told you that I would never leave you unless you were disloyal. That is the one line that you cannot cross and come back from. At one point, he said, you're so twisted. You think it's a good thing. Then you run your mouth when I'm upset. That's hood rat thinking. Is it? It's hood rat thinking. Is it? That's what I mean. I don't know what he's talking about. It's very, yeah. Now she's a hood rat. Yeah. She's taken 40 years. I don't know what you're...

That's a down woman right there. Yeah, no shit. Jesus Christ. She'll do anything. Then he said, it's your job to submit to your husband and not to run your mouth. They're not married, by the way. Yeah, who's her husband? Him, apparently. Where's he at? He maybe could have saved us all. Fuck, yeah, where's he at? He's going to be really pissed when he hears about all this. Not only was she fucking around, but wow, what a fucking...

Well, and then he said, running your mouth is stupid. It's not good. It's destructive. And you run your fucking mouth all the time. I know who you are. You're driving a wedge between us or there will be no us. That's what he said. Then the next day he changes his tone completely. Yeah. Sometimes sleep on it. He's a manipulator. That's the thing. Yeah. But also, haven't you ever had a fight with a girl, James? Oh, yeah. And then you got it. But he actually needs some shit from her. Yeah. Yeah.

So this is more like a compliment sandwich or a negative compliment sandwich at a review at work. Like, listen, you're coming in late all the time. Really, your quarterly report was excellent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Also, could you not fucking yell at that one guy for making popcorn and stinking all the whole office up? It's one of those things. Could you not take the plea? Please.

So he confronted her and now he says he loves her. Oh, yeah. And says, quote, is there anything you want to come clean about? What? Yeah, yeah. She responded that she hadn't done anything. And then he said, yeah, you have. You're lying and I know things. Okay, here we go. Oh, boy. She said that, quote, the only thing I've done to you is what you heard in court on Friday and that's something I regret.

Saying I would testify against you. Yeah, that's one part that's really bad. She then said, this is amazing. I'm not supposed to do that. In the Bible, not supposed to do that. Babe, come on. A man is not supposed to open his mouth. You're...

Okay. You rode next to a dead couple in the backseat playing fucking Candy Crush on your phone. A bagged up dead couple. Could have been Angry Birds for Christ's sake. The Bible. What does it say in the Bible about busting into a casino with masks on and zip tying some fucking somebody's mother on the floor and stealing money from them?

What does it say about that in the Bible? I don't remember that part. Threatening the single lady employee with a machete and a pistol. I'm not a biblical scholar or anything, but I don't remember hearing much about that. I feel like I would have heard something. Yeah. She said, yeah, not supposed to open. A man is not supposed to open his mouth, she said, which is she's putting her in that. But what about you, Gal? How about you? Later, she assured him that she was, quote, not going to do anything stupid and that she's got him.

I got you. And then she said that she loves him also. I love you. I got you. I won't say anything stupid. The Bible forbids me. And we all know...

In this relationship, we follow the Bible to the letter of the word, obviously, with all of our – clearly, that's all in there. The Bible. The Bible. Yeah. Wow. He would – these conversations are bonkers because he would go from, yeah, you know, I love you, I love you, I'll fucking kill you if you say anything, but I don't want to kill you because I love you. Like, he'd do shit like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Real manipulative, weird shit. Assurances of love and then also saying stop running your mouth. Here's some examples from that quote. Sam, you know, I love you, too. I do the right thing by you every day. Maybe when I was in that one chick's house killing people, that wasn't exactly great. But, you know, every other day. Yeah.

I could reach out. Everybody has a bad day, James. Everybody has a bad day. Then he, I love you. I do the right thing by you every day. Then he, this is a threat. Quote, I could reach out to different people and shit and I don't.

I could have you killed, and I don't do it every day. I could have you killed in jail. That's the right thing I'm doing by you is letting you breathe. Every day I let you live. Jesus Christ. Nobody appreciates what Gerald does. Nobody appreciates Gerald. Thanks a lot. I'll just sit here with my fucking head up my ass not being appreciated. I could come in with my asshole print umbrella. It's fine. And I don't.

He said, I don't want to talk to other people unless it's you. I don't ever want to be the reason you shed tears. Don't make me be the reason. Don't make me make you cry. Oh, my God. Then he said, if you can't stop yourself from doing this hood rat shit, then you can't be with me because you're going to put me in bad situations. What are you threatening? She can put you in jail forever, immediately. Forever. That's it.

She then he says, please, for once, be real. She's not. Wow. OK, tell me right now if you're capable or if you're not willing to be what I want. Maybe you're not the one. You continually do this shit that I can't accept. I need you to be honest. Are you or are you not the one?

What one? You know what? Let's refer to the Bible and see if there's anything in there about this. Fucking Highlander. Wow. He also said that he encourages her to remain silent, saying that this is amazing. Quote, The devil is going to use you, Sam, and get and to get to me because I'm too fucking powerful to get at.

Oh, the devil is going to use her to get to him. Can't get to me. Because I'm stronger than Satan. Yeah. I'm too powerful and he knows it. You know what I mean? It's like he leaves Jesus alone. His other Buddha, he's not fucking with him. A lot of people he's not fucking with. It's me right in that whole thing. I'll do it. See, he knows. He's seen me.

Don't went to Georgia. Cause I scared his ass out of West Virginia. I scared him out of wheeling. That's why the head on the bike. That was me for the devil. I was letting him know. This is fucking, this is the last guy that played the fiddle with me. So there they are there. The, she, she says that, okay. Um,

You know, I guess I won't testify against you. Is that her choice now? Yeah. I guess, yeah, she's not going to testify. So those are the calls that led her to say, I don't want to do it anymore? I don't want to do it anymore. Yeah. He said, listen, you can't be a hood rat. Yeah. Cut the hood rat shit out. I let you live every fucking day. I could have you stabbed in the shower. So when's the last time you said something sweet like that to your wife? That's what I mean. It's like, I could have you raped with broomsticks, but I have chosen not to. Like, what the fuck?

Fucking give me the credit I deserve. Have it all run down the drain. And here I am with you talking nicely, telling you I love you. Fucking. Here I am eating the dinner that you made for me. Ungrateful bitch. Yeah, truly. You're breathing air. Ungrateful bitch, man. Fucking ungrateful. So on August 20th, 2019, the court, after hearing all of these calls, and I'm sure just, you know, holding in laughter, said,

They decided that they're going to allow the admission of these recorded statements to be – they're going to allow not only the phone calls to be played, but –

Rather because she won't testify now and because they're saying he coerced her into not testifying and threatened her there. They're judging her as technically unavailable, which means they can use her recorded statements and just play them in court for the jury.

So all the shit she said before she was scared of being murdered in the shower is now up for grabs. Real quick, James, would it be uncouth of us to make greeting cards, like holiday sweet, just anniversary cards that are like these words? I let you live every day. No, I think this is exactly what people do.

People would find sweet and, you know, Valentine's anniversaries. You really want to hear something like that. You know what I mean? I could do a lot of things and I let you live every day. Happy Valentine's Day. I could kill you and I don't. Happy anniversary. Happy Valentine's Day. That rhymes, by the way. Happy Valentine's Day. I think that works. Yeah, we can make cards and who wouldn't want to get a big bouquet of flowers and

And then get, aren't you happy I don't kill you because I could every day. But luckily you don't do hood rat shit. So happy anniversary. Thanks for not being a hood rat. Happy birthday. Thanks. Oh my God.

Congratulations on the pregnancy. That's what that card says. I want to just get all kinds of tapes from murderers and then just transcribe what they say. How many of those do you think would sell a lot? They like weird shit like that. I came from my mother's vagina. Ed Kemper. Happy Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day. We could make thousands of them.

Oh my God, yes. Let's do it. Or just do it, fucking. Gilmore there, fucking. Happy anniversary.

Incredible. You can really go far with that shit. I like it. So they're going to allow the statement to come in. They said that he intentionally reached out to her not knowing that she was a potential witness against him. This is what he's saying now in his defense. But that she was a part of the plea agreement that was going to testify against him. While the dialogue between them was not one of threats, it appears the defendant used manipulation and emotions, the court decides.

And he clearly tried to use his knowledge of her feelings for him and manipulated and coerced her into backing out of the plea agreement. I think he threatened her life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's... I think she's scared. A direct threat. Yeah. I think if a guy who knows where to take a car to get chopped up probably knows somebody in a women's prison that would beat this girl up. You know what I'm saying? 100% intimidation of a witness. Abso-fucking-lutely. So the court...

Then orders that her recorded statement be played. She's unavailable. So before the trial begins, though, his attorney says, ah, one thing here. I just realized when I went through all the discovery that I know the owner of the gambling parlor quite well. He's a good friend of mine. Didn't realize that was his place. So he said, I've even vacationed with him. How did you not know?

How did you not know what businesses he must own? A lot of businesses. You vacationed with the man and he didn't tell you my place was robbed by a man carrying a fucking machete. Machete people might have been years before that. We don't know. But they've known each other for years. And they said, do you believe the court says, do you believe that any of these things you've raised today prevent you from acting ethically in a professional manner and representing your client? And he said, no, I don't. But my client is concerned about that.

The court says, okay, but I'm asking you, though. And he said, no, I don't.

And they said, do you believe that because of these contacts or previous relationships you've had with these people that you've done things that you should not have done or that you didn't do things you should have done with this case? And he said, no, your honor. And the judge said, well, then I don't care what your fucking client says. You're good to remain. You're on the case. You're on the case because he didn't rob that guy. If he robbed that guy, it might have been different because he knows the owner. How often if he owns a bunch of businesses, is the owner hanging out in this dump? Probably. Yeah. Not very. Yeah.

Yeah, but he may say, I'll represent him to the best of my ability. I fucking hate this guy now. He's a scumbag. I'll rep him. I'll do what I can do here. So that ends up a four-day trial. And the court is, by the way, instructed the jury on robbery in the first degree with special interrogatory on brandishing a weapon, the lesser included charge of grand larceny, and the use of a firearm during the commission of a felony.

All the evidence we gave you. They left their... The fucking purse was sitting there. I mean, what are you going to do, man? They got her ID and then her recorded statement saying this is what happened. So you're pretty fucked at this point and he doesn't testify. So the verdict comes in and they find him guilty of first degree robbery.

Before sentencing, he moves for a new trial, arguing that the jury had misunderstood the distinction between grand larceny and first-degree robbery.

No, I think they understood it really well. One, you have a machete and one you don't, I think is what they probably decided. We're going with the first. That sounds first degree, a machete and a fuck. And it was a big plan, too. Yeah. First degree indicates planned, premeditated, organized, executed. Not good. And you did it. Yeah. And you fucking did it. So the court denies that motion. And during sentencing.

This is fucking good here. First degree robbery. They find him. You, sir, may fuck off 100 years in jail. Holy shit. For the robbery. Now, he can get out way earlier than that. Yeah.

Still 100 years in jail, so that means he's going to have to go up for a lot of paroles. And his record is terrible. I mean, they're not going to go up. He seems like a great risk. Right. Every time he's out of jail for a week and a half, he's back in cuffs. Like, there's no... That's insane, man. He's a lunatic. So...

So 2023 here, the murder trial comes up. Yeah. So how did they when they did this, though? So they've got him in jail on this forever. Obviously, he's in a lot of trouble for this. And so.

Were they suspecting him of the murders or they had no idea yet? No, no. They were suspecting him of the murders. And as they were going through it, they arrested him for the robbery. As he's going through the trial, that's when all the physical evidence came in and Dawn told them all. So then they go, oh, well, we're online waiting. So as soon as you're done with that, we got him next. Cool. Is he well aware of that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He knows. He knows he's fucked. So they charged him with three counts of murder.

Because he killed the baby too, and it wasn't like the mother's choice. It was a fucking shot out of her. Right. The problem is the unborn child, they had to drop the third murder charge because they said they found no evidence of fetal remains at the burn site. They burn up a lot faster because there's no solid bones and shit like that. It's a fetus. Oh, yeah.

The fetus was actually burned completely away. So they have no proof that the fetus existed. No proof of a pregnancy. Unless the, unless she went to the doctor five minutes before this happened and took a sonogram, they don't have any, any proof that she's pregnant.

Wow. Is the problem. Normally you have the, you know, the fetus. You could have a sonogram from four months ago or three months ago. You could have lost it between then and now. We don't know. So that's why there's no way to charge them. Wow. You just can't. They said, though, that the anthropologist at the Smithsonian said that the fetal remains may have likely been consumed by the fire, whereas adult remains wouldn't have been.

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.

You know, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical.

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. ♪

You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. They said that they didn't believe that they probably could have got a conviction on it anyway. They thought they said it didn't seem like a weak case because they said we have video evidence from Kroger that shows Lulu Jenkins clearly pregnant approximately two weeks before she was murdered.

OK, she's walking around looking pregnant. We also had weeks ago. Yeah. We also had medical records. Jenkins was filling out that she had a doctor's appointment on August 15th, which was the day the remains were discovered. So she said, we fully believe that we could have gotten a conviction on the murder of the unborn child. But they were trying to streamline this whole thing. OK, so apparently his robbery sentence, he's already been in since he's been arrested. This is 2023. He's already been in for five years.

And they said he's eligible for parole in 20 years from then. Oh, my God. 25 years. You have to do a quarter of it, I guess. A quarter of your sentence on 100? Yeah. So now they're going to put him in for this. And just as shits and giggles, they offer him a deal.

Just the shits and giggles are like, yeah, let's see if he'll take a fucking deal where he gets another hundred years or whatever the fuck. But let's see if we'll deal on murder. And he does. He decides to plead guilty to it.

It feels like he knew, right? He knows he's fucked. Yeah. The prosecutors are blown away, they said. Yeah, yeah. They said they expected this trial to be the two-week-long Gerald Jacko show. He was going to be an asshole. He's going to be disruptive. He's going to do everything in court that you can't do to try to, you know, just distract from the fact that he murdered people. Right. And we see that a lot in court from assholes with murder charges. And they're going to, the one guy, I'm going to fake a heart attack. I'm going to do this. I'm going to go crazy. Yeah.

So they said that the family said after five years of this, they said the plea was made with the blessing of everybody, with the whole family. She said the family came together. The prosecution came together, talked to the family and talked about the plea offer. And they said they never expected him to take it. Neither did we.

Well, I actually did. But they said this plea offer represents finality, certainty and closure. I know a lot of people wanted to know what was going to happen in this trial. But at the end of the day, getting 12 people in line and in step with one another through a guilty door through the guilty door takes a while.

You never know with a jury. You just never know how a trial is going to go. Yeah. That is the old saying of you don't trust your hard work to 12 idiots. It's OJ, too. I mean, think about it. Casey Anthony fucking walked away. Are you kidding me? So many. Yeah. It happens a lot. All the time. You never know. And then they convict a lot of people wrongly, too. Sure. 12 people aren't – maybe they should make it more. Maybe it should be like 30 people. Yeah.

Let's get like 30 people. That way there's even more ideas. 50 people. Fuck it. We should do it uneven number. Like 21. That would help. You know what I mean? Like a fucking blackjack. Well, if it's got to be unanimous anyway. Hit me. 17. I shouldn't hit, but I want four more jurors. There we go. Let's go.

So sentencing, this is from Lauren's sister, from Lulu's sister. Now we hold on to memories and old pictures, knowing new ones will never be made to speak of her in past tense is so heartbreaking and hard to come to terms with. It's a void that will never be filled. Jesus. That's depressing. Um,

That's rough. Her sister's been fucking murdered. That's horrible. And her baby, for Christ's sake. That's so fucked up. You had a couple that were happy and moving forward to a better life. And also, Shrever's family came in and said what a nice son he was. He's a good friend. He's a good father. He's got a little boy. Yeah.

What the fuck here? So the judge said this because Jacko basically tried to say, look, I've been addicted to drugs for 20 years and I'm a mess and this causes me to do crazy shit. Which is fine for the robbery, but this is a murder. This is different. This is a revenge murder. Your drugs had nothing to do with it. You're mad because he stole something from you. You opened a man's neck in your back.

for better in your fucking cheating Gumar's kitchen. Yeah. Not cool. And then had her do a remodel job. He didn't even come over and help out with that. You forced this woman to rent our kitchen. You think he brought over a bucket of spackle? I think not. I doubt it. I doubt it. I don't think he brought a roller for Christ's sake. No.

So the judge said, quote, I see people suffering from addiction almost on a daily basis. It is West Virginia. So he's like, listen, I know meth and pills. Trust me. But I don't see them commit the kind of crimes Mr. Jacko committed in this case. Not only did he murder two people, but then he dismembered and burned their bodies, leaving their families with nothing, not even the ability to mourn and bury their family members. You, sir, may fuck off two life sentences.

Not bad. To run concurrent, though, so it's one life sentence, basically. Now, the court ruled that he'll serve count one for the murder of Trevor Vossen with the possibility of parole after 15 years. And the count two for Lulu's death, the possibility of parole after 15 years. So this puts him in parole in 15 years, up for parole in 15 years.

From now or is it after the other one? Once he completes the robbery sentence. So if they were going to parole him for that, which I don't know why they would because he's a murderer, then he can start 15 more years till he can get parole. Okay. So the prosecutor says that he'll serve at the very, very least 40 years.

At this point, it'll be in the 70s when they let him out. But she says the prosecutor said with his atrocious record, it's not likely he'll ever be a free man again. Yeah, he's going to fuck up in the joint, man. We gave you a roadmap of how to escalate from from minor shit to murder in a 15 year period like that. We just showed you the roadmap. And he's once you're there, you don't go backwards.

I know your job sucks. Just stick it out. Find another one while you're working. This is a crazy lifestyle. This is not the way to live. This is a way you have to live like this when you're

When you're young, you have to start like this. You don't just go, oh, I had a good job and all this stuff. I played a shit round of golf today. Fuck it. I'm done. I'm done with all this. I shot an 82. Decided to call my girlfriend a hood rat bitch afterwards. I didn't think I was done. Shot an 82. I said, you hood rat bitch. Fuck this shit. I'm killing people and you're going to help me dispose of the bodies. What about the people that were a part of this, James?

They – the one guy I believe got immunity because – to testify against him and he never had to because there was no murder trial so it didn't come out. But he – they said he was like forced into it. Like he basically said, I will kill you if you don't help me. And they believed the guy because this guy is a lunatic and you believe that kind of shit.

Now, the prosecutor also said that she was going to, quote, give it to him good during the trial. Sounds like they were going to paddle him like, ma'am, you can't just say that as the lead prosecutor. She meant it in a sexual way, too. She's like, I was going to stick things up his butt. That was going to be part of the presentation. I was going to fuck him with that umbrella. I was going to do something. I was going to open it in there.

She said during the acceptance of the plea deal, that gives the families some closure they deserve after five years of recounting the murders, which, yeah.

Horrible. State was planning to call 26 witnesses, including experts from Marshall University and the Smithsonian Institute Anthropology Department. And they believe that they believe if the case had gone to trial, he would have been convicted on all counts. Obviously, otherwise he wouldn't have pled. Right. So they said, why do you think he accepted the deal? And the prosecutor said in his own mind, he believes he has a shot to breathe free air one day.

What? He thinks he can get out in 40 years. He'll be almost 80, but he thinks he's going to get out at like 78 and then go out and party more.

Get some more dumb tattoos. Yeah, a man that tells a woman that he can reach out and get her in her prison. Yeah. He thinks that he's going to be able to function in this prison society and live it out. And once they parole him for the robbery, obviously, because he's not like he's been convicted of murder or anything, then they'll happily let him out for the murder, too. Just said, what a rehabilitated great guy.

He's wow. I mean, obviously he's out of his mind, but he is certainly out of his fucking mind. Well, out of his mind. They asked about the families and the prosecutor said it was bittersweet, more bitter than sweet. There's always that desire to see and hear and know everything that happened as much as the state can prove. And I think being deprived that, uh,

And she said what he did was incredibly brutal. And he appealed the robbery conviction. Uh-huh.

But he appeals it mainly on the case of they let phone calls in that he doesn't think they should have let in, which they decided that you can absolutely let in. Ineffective assistance of counsel and some real ticky tack shit. He was on there. That sign said little Snoopy. It didn't say. No. They were recording my call. It said. Yeah, it said I couldn't read it because it was graffiti language, but it said some shit. I think it was a gang tag.

So, yeah, he's going to be in there. And even if he did, by some miracle, get his robbery conviction overturned, he's still in for murder. So no matter what. He's in so much trouble. I can't imagine what parole board would look at this guy and go, that's the candidate. Perfect. Right.

He's our guy. That's the one. I'm shocked that they did not chase the girls harder. I'm shocked that they didn't get the other guy. All of these people need to be in jail. If she is going to help a robbery in terms of

opened the door for him she's very she's a that's a bad woman she's a big part of it that's a three person robbery she's as big a part of as anything as absolutely so yeah she's doing that she's helping dispose of bodies yeah she essentially said go at some point go to the cops if you're that upset you know what i mean like i don't know what kind of life you rode in a car with

two bodies. I feel like drugs are a big part of this, though. They're certainly not sober people. Only a drug couple would that fly. If you can't go to your girlfriend and be like, I'm at this chick's house and I just killed these two people, including a pregnant woman, and I'm going to dismember them. Get up here and help me clean.

Unless you're on meth, that's going to cause an argument. Sorry. Your significant other is going to go, who is she? Yeah. What relationship are you fucking people in? Anybody wouldn't realize that. Holy shit. That is a loose one. I don't want to hear about the bodies. Who is she? Now, that is that case, okay? Now, let's move on.

To another case here. A quick little case at the end. That's a very modern. That case wrapped up in September 2023. My God. And the appeals are still going on as we speak. Okay. Oh, boy. Case number two has been dead and buried for 75 years. Really? It takes place in 1948.

this case and it's amazing we have to go to panther west virginia panther yeah panther it is in the far southwestern corner of that rounded area of west virginia far far all the way down there it is i'll read from wikipedia it's an unincorporated community in mcdowell county west virginia panther is located along the tug fork come on the tug fork

I read that. I laughed like a fucking idiot. 20 hours, 20 minutes by myself here. That's amazing. Holy shit. Tug fork. You better look for a personal item for your stupid opinions called a tug fork. Wonder how that got named.

There's a fork up there in the creek, and when you get there, they'll just be... Oh, you'll see. It's just a semen everywhere. Everywhere. And there's just people whacking it left and right. You're going to... Wow. You can't miss it. You can't miss it. Anyway, take the left on the fork when you go there. Take the left there. That's what you want to go on that direction. Anyway. Anyway. Avoid the semen. Go around it. And wear your boots.

Anyway. So...

In 1948 in Panther. Nowadays, you can't even find stats on this place. It's an unincorporated community. It's a ghost town. No population really to speak of. There's no downtown. Yeah, it might have been a town 100 years ago. It's dying or dead. Yeah, there's a lot of towns in West Virginia that were alive in 48 that are ghost towns now. Mining towns and things like that where the mines dried up. That's it. Everybody leaves. They leave a...

A husk of earth and like eight people who crawl into the mountain to subsistence pick coal from the walls to heat their houses. Thanks. Thanks, coal companies. With fires burning indefinitely underground. Indefinitely. Yeah. It keeps it a couple degrees warmer, so they're not even upset about it. Summers are nicer. Yeah.

So this is a family rivalry in 1948 in this area. Oh, yeah. Yeah, buddy. This is way different. It's the Witt Brothers, W-H-I-T-T, the Witt Brothers and the Justices, the Justice Clan. Okay. Those are their last names. They're longtime acquaintances, these people. And they live in the hollers in the general vicinity of Panther. Okay. These are...

Fucking hill people. Their favorite band is the Chillbillies, I believe, as we've done that before. Lots of Chillbillies playing on the roundy round. Yeah, lots of those. Now, apparently there's been no serious problems between these two families. It's not like they've had a feud for 100 years or anything. This is the beginning of it here.

Okay. Hatfields and McCoy started over a pig, I believe. A pig and then there was a girl too. There was somebody's sister that somebody went out with one of those. Eventually, yeah. But the main feud started over fucking livestock. It could be anything. It could be anything.

If you live near each other, then it just keeps escalating. I'd love to know how this one started. Now, the Justice patriarch, Matt Justice is his name, which absolutely sounds like a 1960s TV show of a cowboy coming in. Matt Justice. Yeah.

Big square jaw. They show him on a horse he pulls up, Matt Justice. He's bigger than the horse. It's Old West Justice in the modern day. His feet touch the ground on that horse. He comes in with the horses riding him. He's like, my horse got tired. Thought I'd give him a break. He's got to lift his legs so the horse can walk. Matt Justice, his...

He's the dad. And on December 12th, 1927, he was convicted of a charge of murder. So... What'd you do, Matt? He was served a sentence of 12 years at the state penitentiary. Huh? They've gotten a little stiffer since then. Yeah. Well, then he ended up, I guess, and then that in the month of April 1928, he was convicted of a felony for this other... Okay. And he's sentenced to six years in the federal penitentiary. So...

He's had all, so he's got 12 year and a six year sentence for two separate things, a murder and something else. Now that's the, that's the patriarchs. That's how the Witt family goes. Yeah. Justice. Justice. I'm sorry. Justice. Yeah. So now 1948, there's some evidence to the effect that the Witt brothers here in early November, 1948 had quote, some trouble as it's put in the court documents with Zeb justice, uh,

These are real human beings. Zeb. Zeb Justice. He's the brother of Matt Justice Jr. Oh. Of course. Matt's boy, yeah. Matt's boy. And the Witt brothers believed that Matt Justice would seek revenge against them for their treatment of Zeb Justice. Okay. We're going to get him back for what happened to Zeb, is what it is. But nobody knows whether Matt actually intended to do this or not.

Oh, but that's just what they thought. And they've been telling people around town that, oh, man, I don't know. Jeb's going to be Jeb's going to tell Matt. Matt's going to be pissed. Clients and McLaurys are coming for you. Yep. So November 6th, 1948, about 1030 or 11 in the morning here. The Witt brothers drive their car near the home of Matt Justice. They drove over and requested him to come out to the road, calling him a bad name.

They said, quote, called him a vile name, which was probably sissy. I believe really caused a big one coming down there. You call me? Come on, you swishy sumbitch. Who knows what backwoods insults these people traded with each other?

Your moonshine's terrible. You sumbitch. Now that's where I draw the line. You know that's how I make my living. You drunken pussy. Oh, man. Drunken sissy. It may have been even more vile than anything that we ever say. Who knows? That's what I mean. We don't know what the fuck he said. So Matt Justice...

Comes outside. How dare he call? I won't take shit from these wit boys. Yeah, I'm doing that. He comes outside and he says that Curtis Witt was out there and he says, quote, Curtis throwed a gun on me. He throwed a gun on me. He didn't throw it. He did. He was still in his hand. Throwed a gun on me.

And said, I'm going to shoot you in two. Which, wow, that'd be a big bullet. What's he got? No shit. Artillery fire? Some kind of, I'm going to shoot you in two. I've never heard that said. This tiny pistol's a .50 cap. Wow. We have heard a lot of threats on this show. Never, I'll shoot you in two. That's a definite new one. Yeah. So Matt Justice stops and doesn't go down the road anymore. Doesn't go toward the road. I didn't realize you were going to shoot me in two. I guess I'll stop. Yeah.

So the Witt brothers drove farther down the road a little bit then and fired the gun back toward Matt's house. Okay. As a warning shot, pow, whatever. Okay. And then they took off. Later in the day, though, one of the Witt brothers fired a gun at the home of Matt Justice's daughter.

All right. So now they're going around. Well, he won't fucking come outside to be murdered in the street by us. Yeah. So I'll go threaten his daughter. That'll get him out. That'll do it. Now, meanwhile, they're doing this because they're afraid that Matt's going to be pissed about Zeb and come after them. Don't you be pissed at me now. Yes. So this is all preemptive strike here. So they fired a shot at his daughter's house. Okay. The daughter...

Called the cops, which is something that you never hear in these stories. It's never. It's very rare. It's very 1948 and backwards. She actually went, I don't know. She didn't know there was a beef going on or anything. She said, someone shot at my house. I'm calling the cops. So she does here. Now,

So later on in the day, though, okay, I guess Matt, Justice, and Zeb drove to Lager, the town of Lager, for the purpose of purchasing feed and groceries. So food for the people and the animals. They went into the White Front Cafe and ordered a beer.

But they left the cafe without drinking the beer because they turned around and saw that the Witt brothers were in a booth in the cafe. It was a small town. I don't want to start a fight in here. Let's just leave. So after leaving the cafe, they drove to a feed store, made some purchases, and apparently delivered some rugs at the request of the feed store proprietor. I don't know if he said, I'll give you a break on this if you bring these rugs to this guy or what. Yeah.

Now, we don't know exactly what the Witt brothers did right after they left the cafe, but we do know they went to a gas station a little time later. And the service attendant, because this is in the full-serve days, saw two shotguns in the rear of the car. And he took that into his head. But around there, who knows? Hunting. We don't know what people are doing. Yeah.

Other witnesses said they also saw two guns in the automobile on that day. So definitely there. So there was some contention, though, whether the guns were intended to be used. They were telling everybody, yeah, we're going squirrel hunting. That's why. Yeah. We're going squirrel hunting. That's why we got them. So one witness, they asked him, did you have a conversation with Thomas Witt on that occasion with reference to Matt Justice? Yes.

And he said he had asked, this is the answer to this. This is Herbert Bronte answers this question. He's a witness here. He says, he asked me if I had heard the latest. I said, no, I reckon not. Yeah, no, I reckon not. What about it? He said about Zeb justice getting beat up. And I said, he did. And he said, yes. Well, I said, do you think it's over? Well, he said, I don't know. We may have to kill old Matt before it's over.

Hmm. So, yes, he killed Zeb, who was Matt's son. So there are beat up Matt Zeb. And they're like, now we're going to have to deal with Matt. Matt never said shit about this, but they were like, we're going to have to kill Matt. That's all there is to it. He's a bad man. And that's junior Matt. Yes, that's junior Matt. Yeah. Yeah. Matt seniors already gotten out of the pokey for murder. So there's evidence to the effect that the reputation of Thomas Witt was bad, according to court documents. Bad reputation. Yeah. Yeah.

And considerable evidence to the effect that the reputation of Curtis Witt was also bad. So Curtis and Thomas Witt, not good guys. The guys that stand around Pump 7 talking about murdering folks. The guys that shoot at someone's daughter's house. Yeah, those guys. Weird, right? Strange. Bizarre. Really bizarre.

So November 6, 1948, this is the day we've been talking about. There's been multiple shooting incidents and threats going around. About 4 p.m. in Panther, near the southern end of the bridge crossing of the Tug River. Gross. It's full. The whole river? It flows a little slower than most rivers, but...

Remember Ghostbusters 2 under the ground? That's about how it's going to flow, probably, I would say. And if you jumped in, you'd come out looking about the same. No good. Yeah, you move your hand real fast, you're going to sling it. Oh, it's going to sling all over the place like spatter.

So apparently Thomas Witt and his brother Curtis drove their car to that point about 15 to 30 minutes prior to the arrival of Zeb and Matt Justice in a truck being driven by Zeb. Okay. So they went and parked near this bridge and waited for them. Really? The Witt boys went and waited at this bridge. There's only one way over. Only one way over the bridge and we know they're in town. So they got to come back this way eventually. Okay.

Wow, that is fucking wild. So apparently after the arrival of the truck, I guess they got out of the truck, the justices did here. They got out of the truck and they go around. They each had .38 caliber pistols in their hand as well. And they went around the front end of the Witt automobile and Matt Justice went around the rear of the automobile. They just opened fire from both sides on these guys.

Really? They just 38 from into the car, into the fucking truck, into the truck there. Yeah. They said they've been threatening saying they're gonna have to kill me. They shot at my house. They called me a name. They shot at my daughter. They said they're looking for me. So now they're, they're fucking waiting for us at the end of this bridge. Yeah. We're not, what are you going to do? Let them kill us. Fuck it. We're going after them.

So they do. Both of the wits were killed, Thomas and Curtis. How bad? Shot to death with many holes in them. So after the shooting was over...

The pistol that was used by Zeb contained one loaded and five empty shells. So he shot him five times with his. And the pistol used by Matt had only two empty and four loaded shells. He only shot two. So it's seven times total. I think he hit him probably twice.

Good shots. These people are good shots. They all have to be. They hunt squirrels and little animals and shit. Those things are fucking fast. You got to be a good shot. That's why, like, you know, in the Civil War, like, for the first little while, the South had a huge advantage because these people, a lot of them were hunters, and they just knew how to hunt with rifles. It took a lot of training for guys from, you know, fucking Brooklyn to do that. New York City. Yeah. For a knife fight, fine, but if we got to use rifles. Guys from Boston. Yeah, it's a little different. Yeah.

So they're good at it. So they do. They said that Thomas Witt died from gunshots inflicted by Zeb. Curtis Witt here, they said that Matt Justice killed Curtis. So one of them shot one and one shot the other is the way they did it. He only had to shoot him twice to get it done. Good shot. He comes from a long line of murderers. His daddy's a murderer. I'm sure his grandpappy's a murderer. He's a proven out murderer.

So Matt Justice ends up being convicted of voluntary manslaughter in connection with the death of Curtis Witt. Oh, because they could have pulled the rifles? Because, yeah, they said, I guess they were like, well, I mean, there was beef. I mean, you know. There was beef and there was shotguns. But at the time, the shotguns weren't pointed at them or out or in the car. Yeah, man, that's just called quick draw. That's what I mean. Got to you first. Yeah. Should have been waiting with your shotguns, you lazy fucks.

There were a number of witnesses who saw the shooting, by the way. Really? A lot of people just hanging by the bridge, by the Tug River. Gross. Well, how else would you get that much tug in there unless you hung out by the banks of it? Yeah, it's got to be just lined with fellas. Fellas up and down. Just up and down. The shoreline is just tons of guys. One guy trying to fish like...

A little bit of elbow room is all I'm asking. I can't even fucking, I can't even cast, man. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I don't know if anyone's ever tried that, but that sounds disgusting. I don't think it's going to work, man. I bet like sunfish would come up and eat it, too. That's the gross part. They probably would. Bloop, bloop. They'd eat it.

Oh, man. So, yeah, they said that according to the evidence here, at the time the truck was being driven by Zeb stopped at the scene of the homicide, Thomas and Curtis Witt and also a Thomas justice. So they were all there, too, were standing on the right side of the Witt automobile, a Tudor sedan. So.

I don't know if that's supposed to be Tudor and they misspelled it in the court document. I don't know. Tudor might be a brand of vehicle. It might be a car brand back then. I have no idea. But either way, Thomas Justice, one of the Justice clan, was there also. I guess talking to them, figuring it out, and they just came out and come up popping a fire in a way. Wow. So...

They said that Jeb got out of the truck with a pistol in his hand and immediately shot at Thomas Witt, yelling out, quote, Oh, yes, God damn you. We got you. Yes. God damn you. We got you.

Which is very old Westy. Yeah, it is. He then fired another shot at Thomas Witt. And after Thomas Witt fell to the ground, he reached into the Witt automobile, picked up one of the shotguns and beat Thomas over the head with it. Wow. Then went around the Witt automobile, beating Curtis over the head with the gun after Curtis had already been shot by Matt.

Unbelievable. So these two have been shot to death, and he went, nope, not done yet, bitch, take that. You guys kicked my ass. I'm getting revenge today. Started going to ass whooping on him, which is hilarious. So, yeah, he's now beating these people, their dead bodies. And there's like 10 people around, by the way. Not only did you shoot them, now you're like, yeah, you saw him, bitch, take that. Well, he's pounding them with their own shotguns.

The two shotguns were lying on the ground near the Witt automobile immediately after the shooting. They were broken down and neither had been fired.

So they were loaded and they were found in the pockets of Thomas Witt with other loaded shells. The stock of one of the guns had appeared to have been recently broken. Yes, over their heads. On someone's head. Wow, that's to beat someone hard enough to break an old school shotgun stock too. That's not some new thing. That's a fucking solid thing. He broke that shit over people's heads.

He's angry. Wow. So evidence is they said that it's basically the that's what the prosecution says. Yeah.

Guys were hanging out by a bridge, just a talking and a hanging and doing whatever. And they just got ambushed, basically, by these guys coming over the bridge. But the defense says, no, that's not what happened. No, they said that the Witt brothers were lying in wait for him and his daddy. That's what Zeb said. Me and my daddy. And as soon as they recognized the truck being driven by us, they ran to their automobile and that each got a shotgun and was attempting to shoot them.

When they got out of the truck. So he's saying they took the shotguns out and were trying to load them and getting ready to shoot at them as they got out and just started bucking shots at them. Right. As the justices were seeking justice. It feels like the justices got their...

swifter than they thought. Swift Justice showed up. And it got there quick. It caught them by surprise. They didn't know. They didn't know. Justice is sneaky sometimes. Sometimes it just pops in. Pops in. Lucky Justice wasn't blind or they really wouldn't have shot witnesses.

John Church, he's a guy who was he arrived. He was in the middle of the truck with the justices. He was sitting in the middle seat there sitting bitch. And he said that the quote, the wit boys got out of this car with guns or sticks. I couldn't state which it was.

One of them's drastically more threatening. I'm going to say probably guns, yeah. Who would get out with a stick? I'm going to get you with this, Hickory. Who de-escalates from firing shots at people to, I got a stick now? You don't de-escalate like that, do you? Wow. So they said they asked the witness...

they asked the, uh, when this witness was asked this question would to be to which he answered, what was said there between Matt and Dennis at the time. And he said, okay, I said, he got out right away. They had sticks. This guy said, quote, well, the first word that was said, as I understood, Matt said, Dennis stopped this truck. Well, yeah, that'll happen. Let's see. Sure. Yeah. Okay. That's probably the start of this fight. Yeah. Once you were stopped from there. Yeah.

The first thing I remember him saying is he said, put five on pumped five. And I said, okay. And that was back then. Then he went in and got a pack of Marlboros. Heard him say, I'll have my toast white. Yeah, heard that. He likes his eggs over medium, in case you're all wondering.

So he said, Dennis, stop the truck. And then he starts every sentence with well. He said, well, first word that was said, as I understood, is Dennis, stop the truck. Well, he went on maybe four or five feet, it seemed to me. And he said, Dennis, I told you to stop this truck. Yeah. And Dennis said, all right, Daddy, I am stopping it. Is Seb's name Dennis? I guess Dennis, yeah. I said, what's the matter?

I was the one that spoke then, and I said, what's the matter? So everybody said, what's the matter? He said, I said, what's the matter? He said, it was me that said that, even though I said I said that. It kind of shocked me. He said, that's the wit boys, he said. That's his sentence. He said, that's the wit boys, he said.

Whoa. That's a good one. Did you see them jumping out with their guns? I said, yes, it was something. Because that's what they asked him. Did you see them jumping out with their guns? I said, yes, it was something. He said, it is us or it's them. I said, maybe not.

That's something you want to know for sure. You know, you probably could have just kept driving, maybe. Yeah. I think that's what he means. Try to broker this shit later, you know, with the intermediaries and, you know, like a mob family. You don't have to fight it out. They brought me into this shit. I wasn't even a part of it. I was just riding in the most uncomfortable position in this truck. He said, it's us or them. And he goes, maybe not. Maybe we can just keep driving. Maybe we just keep going, guys. Maybe y'all could drop me off at home first. You know, that's all.

Maybe it's none of us. Maybe I don't catch a stray today. Maybe dinner's almost ready. What do you think? Maybe my wife's expecting me. Let's get on out of here. What'd she say? Maybe I got hogs to feed. You don't know. I got something. He said, then he stepped right out on the right. He stepped out on the right and Dennis got out on the left and I bowed my head over.

He was like, I don't want to bow my head over. I don't want to see this shit and I don't want to get shot. Now, Mrs. Raymond Johnson, daughter of Matt Justice, was looking out a window of her home near the scene. This is it's all right here. She lives right by the bridge. He's up the street from that. Yeah, this is so where she's looking out the window going, there's going to be a confrontation.

It's happening. Like, Old West style. It's 1949, for Christ's sake. 46? That's what I mean. Whatever. They're watching the Earps and the Cowboys come together. Yeah. What's going on here? She saw this with Matt looking out the window near the home. She testified that, quote, I saw Curtis with the gun throwed up in my father's face, and when he done that, I broke and ran. They...

They're amazing. Literal. Yeah. I'm not fucking making this sound more rural. This is exactly what they fucking said in court documents. This is it here. So I guess the younger justice guy here, Zeb slash, what the hell is Dennis? Dennis is this. Now we're in West Virginia. Dennis is this with his finger up.

Dennis testifies that he drove the truck to the end of the Panther Bridge intending to stop for the purpose of letting John Church get out of the truck. Oh. We were dropping Church off. It was the end of the line for him. Yeah, well, I think he just wanted a ride there. And then when he was asked what he saw, he said, so far as the actions of the Witt brothers were concerned, and here's what Dennis says. Quote, well...

The first thing, I was talking with John, some conversation, the middle guy. I don't remember what it was, and I noticed the boys in the car shuffling around in the car. And when I got a little bit closer, I could see them going back out of the car, and I could see the muzzle of a gun through the glass as they went out. So I intended stopping anyway, I guess to let the dude in the middle out. And then I had to stop more suddenly than what I intended to.

Then this is an exact quote. Against I could stop the boys were on the ground. We're both on the ground. Against I could stop the boys were both on the ground. I don't know what that means. Against against without the A and an apostrophe next to it. I don't know what the fuck that means, but it's something that he said.

Curtis was coming toward the rear of the car, just dropped his shoulder to see through the glass. And Thomas, he was standing on the opposite side of the wheel on the right-hand side with the door open, and he was down. You could see the gun up in that position over the top, looking through the window and over the wheel of the car, and you could see so much of the gun barrel.

So there is vastly different things. Yeah. They are describing that these boys are in position to attack us. They're using their car as a – Yeah, a shield. Like a fort basically to shoot out at you. Meanwhile, other people said that they were just like having a conversation leaning against the car. And then other people said they got out of the car with their weapons and were like running away from the car with their weapons or sticks or whatever. So –

Who the fuck knows what happened with this? If you were a judge, you'd just go, you're all hillbillies. I'm not doing this. Against my better judgment. Fuck off. My judgment is against all y'all. Fuck yourselves. Get out of my courtroom. I don't care what you do. Kill each other in the streets. I don't give a shit. It's too hard to decipher right from wrong here. I don't know what you did. Steel cage match to settle it. I can't help you anymore. I don't know what to do.

He also testified that he believed his life and the life of his father were in danger and that at the time he stopped the truck, the quote, wit boys were on the ground with their guns. They were getting in position to shoot and they had them guns in their hands like this. And he was showing. Aimed at us, yeah. He said, you could see them back behind the car there just as I was getting stopped. Okay. And that's Matt gave the similar version of that. Yeah. So...

They took the jury to the scene, which had to be hilarious. Also crowded between all the guys, all the people hanging by the bridge, his daughter by the window and the line of men whacking it into the river. It was a busy day.

Busy, busy day. Yeah. So officers and others who were at the scene immediately after the shooting and before anything happened placed the Witt automobile and the justice truck and objects representing the bodies of the Witt brothers. So basically what they did is they took the jury out and put out like a can of paint. That's Kurt. That's the one Witt. That's Thomas Witt's head right there. Yeah. That's what they did basically. And they made like a little recreation diagram, recreate a little diorama, a live diorama. Yeah.

So also there were pointed out to the jury the locations of the Panther Bridge, the Greenbrier Bridge, and the home of Matt's daughter, who was shot at earlier and all that kind of thing. So Matt ends up pleading guilty to the voluntary manslaughter and getting, like, five years. But Dennis isn't going to do that. Dennis wants this trial, goddammit. And they find him in this trial with all that, and it's just people. There's multiple witnesses where there's a lot of, like,

Well, I saw this and he was 10 feet this way and people was at 15 feet or 10 feet. I think it was 10 feet, but lots of witnesses like arguing distance like 10, 15. No one knows distance, by the way. Of course, people are the worst at measuring distance. You have no fucking clue how far you are from anything. I don't. Yeah. What was that? About 30 yards? Who knows? I don't know.

So there's a lot of like witnesses talking about distances and how far they were away when they shot at them and how far had the wit boys walked away from their car to get to them. And like, you know, who's the aggressor and all that shit. In the end, Matt just or Dennis Justice is found guilty of murder. Is that right? Guilty of murder.

And he is sentenced to, you sir, may fuck off the state penitentiary for a, quote, indeterminate period. You can't do that. They do a not less than and not more than back then. So an indeterminate period of not less than five years and not more than 18 years.

Oh, so he's going to do five. And that was obviously like a confrontation between two people. And he's going to do five years in jail. So there's that. So in West Virginia nowadays, if you kill people and dismember them and burn them and everything else, you get life sentences and 100 years for robbery. Back then, you could you and your daddy could go out on a nice shootout and

With a couple of nice brothers and just shoot them down in the streets and you only get five years. In front of the whole tug community. I tell you what, this country gone to hell in a handbasket if you can't even shoot a rival pair of brothers you're upset with with your daddy. It's ridiculous. If that's the way this is going down, my name isn't justice, damn it. So that is Wheeling, West Virginia. Wow. And a bonus Panther, West Virginia as well in there.

West Virginia, the reason why we've done two a couple of times, the coverage of things in West Virginia is terrible.

They don't like to write it. The fucking media there doesn't do shit. The newspapers don't put out their archives also. So they're impossible to find. So the only cases with tons and tons and tons of shit are ones that everybody's done. So to find these niche cases, we really have to find ones that there's just not as much information as would be in another case where there's 50 newspaper articles to get background and context and all that.

So it's really difficult, West Virginia. They're always the craziest cases covered the least. If I was a journalist in West Virginia, I'd just go around covering insane murders. That's all I would do. And you'd fucking be busy as shit. The difference, though, James, is some people there can't count to four. Yeah, that's the problem. Like, three? Shit, I lost. What comes after three? And then she went to collector composure. Counting was a lot for her. So...

If you like the show, definitely, please. This is super important. And we don't ask it a lot. We'll say it just in passing. Tell everybody about it. Tell your friends about it. Post about it on social media. Like the post. Follow us on social media. We are at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook, at Murder Small on Twitter. So check all those out. Come hang out with us. Leave a review on whatever you're listening to.

I don't know why it matters, but for some fucking reason, it really helps the show. So thank you for doing that. Everyone who's done that already, thank you. If you haven't done it yet, maybe just do it this week. We worked really hard this week, so maybe hit us back like that. Go to the Instagram page or the Facebook page and comment about the Tug River. Just comment.

Just throw the Tug River wiki page on there. And also, if you're going to leave a review on any app you're listening on, just say, I've been to the Tug River, and we'll know who you are and where you're listening. I like to weekend at the Tug River. I tug into the river, and we know who you are. So, yeah.

Thank you for all the people that have done that. It's just really we don't like really advertise the show very much, honestly, because we don't really we don't want the wrong. We don't want people that would hate the show. We don't want to assault people with something. They think it's something else. They go, oh, these guys are making jokes. What assholes. So, yeah, people hate louder than they love. That's what I mean. So we try to keep it tight, which is odd because that is the worst thing you could do with something like this.

So we really need you guys to spread it to like-minded people, and it helps a lot. So thank you for all the people that have done that. And for 479 episodes now, we cannot thank you enough for that. Also, check out Crime and Sports this week. We did our 400th episode, which if you're like us, it's a huge accomplishment to get to 400, especially in that. And it's a really good episode. There is...

extremely little amounts of sports in the last two weeks for Sean Jones and Nick Gage. Very little sports. For Sean Jones, it's a murder with very little sports. It's small-town murder. Seven fights? Seven fights. There's nothing. And we just make fun of him for five minutes and go back to the murder shit. So it's just like small-town murder. You will love it. Check that out. And also, listen to your stupid opinions...

Great show. If you're like, oh, I've been meaning to check that out. It's an hour long. It's super fast. And it'll feel like it's five minutes. It's the funniest. Literally, I don't laugh at us if I listen to the show. I'm not laughing at our own jokes. I'll laugh at something you said. I'll never laugh at my own shit. You know what I mean? But this show, yeah, you will. You'll laugh at anything.

I've listened to it when I'm editing and stuff. I fucking laugh out loud at it. It's so funny. It's so funny. Check out your stupid opinions, please. And spread the word on that too. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for following us on social media. Head over to shut up and give me murder.com to get your tickets for live shows. Oh boy. The whole year of them. April 5th in Sacramento is our first live show of the year. And then April 6th in San Francisco. Those are going to be different shows by the way. Yeah. So,

So you can go to both. They're like an hour apart. You can go to both. You're going to hear two different nights or two completely different stories. So check that out. That's 5th and 6th. Then April 20th with our 420 special virtual live show. Anywhere you are on planet Earth that has Wi-Fi. If you're on Mars and you can get a connection, God damn it, get the fucking show.

And listen, anywhere, it's just like a regular live show. Us at the table with the pictures and the screen behind us, just like what you see on a stage, except you're going to be in your living room drinking your own booze, smoking your own weed, fingering each other, doing whatever you want to do with each other. That's the best part. Yep.

You can't do that in a theater. They will kick you out. Watch it on the banks of the Tug River. Don't care. While you're tugging, we don't care. You paid for it. It's all yours. And if you do get it, not only can you watch it on April 20th, you can watch it as many times as you want for two weeks after that. 14 days? 14 days. You can buy it, have it, watch it, re-watch it, wipe your ass with it, do anything you want with it.

We're perfectly happy to do that. So thank you. Shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets to live shows, especially those ones at the end of the year. What's that? New York in December. It's almost sold out. Get your tickets now. Don't wait a minute. I'm telling you, you can always if you get them and you can't go, you can always sell them to one of the other fans later on or something or whatever. Give them away. I don't know. Just I would get them if you think you want to go. So do that. Shut up and give me murder.com.

Follow us. Keep hanging out. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is all the bonus material. And we pump out the bonus material. There are hundreds of back episodes to listen to that you'll get immediately upon subscribing. Anybody $5 a month or above. You can have a shit cup of coffee that might not even be done right.

Or you can have hundreds of Patreon episodes, which are done very much fucking right. They're hilarious. So check those out. You get new ones every other week. One crime and sports and one small town murder. And we try to do subjects that both groups will like. That's the thing. And we end up, we can do it pretty well for crime and sports this week. We're talking about Hans Neiman. We don't have to like sports because he's a chess player who allegedly stuck a vibrator up his ass to get chess moves done.

Beamed to him. And he's not the first person to do things up his ass to do this either. This is a thing that happens in table games. Cards and checkers, I assume. Tiddlywinks. Wow. Anything. I don't know. Mousetrap. Mousetrap. You know, the ball rolls. Whatever it is. Yeah. Especially Clue. Especially Clue.

Especially glue. You get a clue. Oh, it's a clue. All right. So it's covered in poop, but it's a clue. So we're going to do that. Everybody did it with the candlestick. Definitely.

Then for small town murder, we're going to talk about D.B. Cooper. Went up in a plane, gave a note, jumped out of the fucking plane, disappeared. Did he get away? Did he not get away? We'll talk all about it. I've been so interested in this since I was a small child. I love it so much. Always been a fascination of mine. I can't wait to talk about that. That's going to be so much fun. Patreon.com slash crime and sports and.

Of course, we won't forget to tell your name here. Jimmy's going to give you a shout out here. We're going to shout you out. He's going to mispronounce your name. And I think it's about time to do that right now. Let's hear all the wonderful people who donated this week. Jimmy, hit me with the names of these fantastic people who would never shoot us down in the streets.

Hit me with them right now. This week's executive producer, Laura Turner, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Janice Hill, Kyle Norwig on his way to the Blue Pearl Buffet, James. Hey, going to the Blue Pearl. That's one of your stupid opinions. It's evidently located down the street from his kid's headquarters. Oh, no. They've been there before, and they go there a lot. I don't know.

Careful, careful. Keep me posted, Kyle. Jordan Bennett donating on behalf of the memory of Brother Deej. I'm so upset to find out that Brother Deej was a great musician. So go...

Find his shit. D-E-G-E. Martha Gilreath, Dustin Mobley, and Jesse Hines. Thank you all so much for being a part of this. You are tremendous. Thank you. Other producers this week are the unfunny comic Joey Bishop. Who is that? Do we know that? Joey Bishop was part of the Rat Pack. Oh, got it. He was the comic of the Rat Pack. Lewis Skolnick, president of the Tri-Lams. That's nice. That's the guy with the glasses from Revenge of the Nerds. Not the main guy. Right. Huh.

Not Anthony Edwards. No, no. Not Booker. Not the black guy. Not Anthony Edwards. The main one. Yeah. Captain Lou Albino is coined by Rowdy Roddy Piper. I didn't know that. He called him Lou Albino. I never heard him call him Lou Albino. During the Cyndi Lauper times. I don't know. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. They were always arguing that. Yeah.

Sharon Jones also. Thank you, Sharon. Joshua Waite, Julie R., Heather Varvel, CJ and Jacob Mutzin, Mercedes Roof. Just one Mercedes, not plural. Nick with no last name, Jessica Hippe. Keep some room in the garage. Mel with no last name, Ian McClements, Edry Edward Overbay, Sally Kultas, Isabel Cooper, Jason Gajon, Courtney Damron.

Is that real? Yeah, it is. Marla? Marla Burrow. Bureau. Marla Bureau. Chrissy Hatfield. Jennifer Bee. James Richter. Lex Atkins. Rina Rhiannon. Rhiannon McCovey. Pauline with no last name. Is that a song too, Kyle? It's Lee with Mac. Yeah, you're right.

Karen Hachi. Almost Hitachi. Brian with no last name. Brian Williamson. Probably the same guy. Two different patrons. I don't know. Maybe two Brians back to back. Thank you, Brian. One and two. Both of you Brians. Andrew Fisher. Andrea Hermanson. Andrea, maybe. Colton with no last name. Keith Wardell. Steve Gilrey. Ryan Larson. Joe Werner. Louis Lewis. Louise Lewis.

Elaine Oldendorf. Bishop Williams. Don't put two words back to back and have me try to pronounce each one different. Mike Geary. Kim Whiteman. Jenna Utter. Oh, that is Charlie's daughter, I imagine. Yeah, absolutely. Charlie Utter. And what was her name? Joni. God. Joni. Joni Stubbs.

Lisa Cole, Destiny Burkhalter, Mallory McCool, Dylan Valesky, Michelle Schleich. Mike with no last name. Sydney Trimble, Danielle Damare, Rachel B, 21, Fuzzy Nips. Emily with no last name. Melissa Truax, Amanda Burrell, Ariel Clark, Christy B, Annalisa. Annalisa? Annalisa. That's what it is.

Violet Hernandez, Will Warren, Tracy Holmes, Ryan Caruco, Akimoto. I heard your name was Annalisa. Now, I'm just saying. Any of that true? Y'all want to hang out later? Just saying. Want to get a drink? Sarah Ritter. Come by. Watch the race later. I'm trying some poppers. Yeah, come on.

Kevin Hoard, Phyllis McInich, Senorita Dave Grohl, Liz Green, Jessica Smith, Ben Keller, Colleen Mathis, Rajin Shireen Armstrong, Mellie with no last name, Troy Faley, Craig Kohler, Daniel Barnes, Jessica Duran,

Emily Lemasters. Jeffrey Moises. Meosis. Myosis. Megan Riggie. Myomiosis. Paul Samaritan. Chris Dunn. Am I? Amy? Amy. That is a banana's way of spelling Amy. A-M-A-I-E. Is that Amy? Amayee? Wow. Amayee. Amayee.

All right. G. Willikers. G. The letter G. Willikers. Ah, Batman. Gotcha. Shannon De Silva. Matthew Welsenbach. Jessica Patterson. OJ's Glove, James. Oh. That's fantastic. Now we know where OJ's Glove is.

Perfect. I've been wondering how that's been asked. Carrie Lennon, Christopher Murray, Jordan Jost, Marjorie Bowie Collard, Jim Harrington, Valerie Clark, Sam McAllister, Krista Lai? Lee? Krista Lee. Amanda Wilkie Newton, Emily Chandler. This show brought to you by the letter B, Isaac Black, Austin, Ireland. F me so gently with a chainsaw. What?

Just lovingly gliding in and out. Yikes. That's like with the Buick in the crime and sports episode. With the Bonneville. Sorry, it was a Pontiac. The 67 Bonneville. Yeah, 67 Bonneville back in crime and sports. And I would know last name. James Perrier, Wendy Barnes, Josh Burton, and Angelique Solgat. Icarus, Icarus, Icarus. Oh, Icarus. 189 Stackhouse. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. The legend of flying too close to the sun.

Patricia Coleman, Arnette Gutierrez, Nina Ruth Sutherland, Debbie Viverino, Celeste Robinson-Mazot, Bill Whitmer, Fanny GZ, Diana Marie Trippley, Trippie, Trippie, Dripple. All right. Judy Tilly, Kelsey Carpenter, Nancy Perosi, Tyna, Tina. It's not Tyna. Tryon, Cindy Smith. No, it's not.

Heather Letterly, Jon Stewart, probably not, Daniel Beecham, Lindsay Phelps, Anna and Tom, Kendall Rodman, Happy Birthday Jaden, Jack and Finn said so, Adam Minerick, James Tuttle, Julia See, Tim O'Brien, Super Stacey Allison Hall, Christian Yates, maybe Jacob with no last name, Brie Archer, and of course,

all of our patrons thank you all so much thank you so much everybody honestly from the bottom of our cold dead hearts we appreciate all that you fucking do for us we can't do this without you we've been doing this now for seven years this show and we owe it all to you so thank you for what you do to us do to us do for us you don't really do anything to us

In a gross or bad way. Thanks for everything. If you want to follow us on social media, go ahead and do that. Shutupandgiveemurder.com is the link. I'm even on Instagram now. You can see pictures of my dog and shit on there. So it's fun stuff. And hang out with us. Keep coming. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

If you like small town murder, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Was there a crime committed?

As far as I'm concerned, there wasn't. Guilty by Design dives into the wild story of Alexander and Frank, interior designers who in the 80s landed the jackpot of all clients. We went to bed one night and the next morning we woke up as one of the most wanted people in the United States. What are they guilty of? You can listen to Guilty by Design exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.