Rod Blagojevich | The Whistleblowers | 5
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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. A listener note, this episode contains some strong language. It may not be suitable for everyone. From Wondery, I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American Scandal. ♪

On December 9th, 2008, news outlets reported the sensational arrests of Illinois Governor Rob Blagojevich and his Chief of Staff John Harris. At a press conference, the U.S. Attorney announced the indictments and called it a very sad day for Illinois government that would make Lincoln roll over in his grave. The indictments contained detailed allegations of attempted extortion and pay-for-play politics, including trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by then-President-elect Barack Obama.

But these news reports came as no surprise to Pamela Davis. The FBI had called her the day before the arrests and told her she might want to watch the news the following day. At the time, Davis worked as CEO of a hospital system in the Chicago area. And in 2003, she wanted to expand that hospital. But as she embarked on the process, she received a strange phone call telling her she had to use a certain contractor or the permit would be denied.

Believing they were being extorted, Davis and her colleague Bill Kottman went to the FBI. And to get proof, they agreed to wear wires and have their conversations taped for eight months. Their efforts sparked a federal investigation into corruption in Illinois state government that ultimately brought down the governor himself. Today, I'm speaking with both whistleblowers, Pam Davis and Bill Kottman. Our conversation is next. ♪

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Pam Davis and Bill Kottman, thank you for speaking with me today on American Scandal. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Good to be here. Now, Pam, in 2003, you were working as CEO of Edward Elmhurst Health System in the Chicago area. Bill was president of Edward Health Ventures, which oversaw outpatient services, right? So he reported to you. Correct. You wanted to expand the hospital. What were you wanting to achieve?

Edward Hospital was very successful in a growing community, and at times the occupancy was more than 100%.

You can't run a hospital at that occupancy. It's dangerous. You need to have beds for women who are having babies, for trauma, for heart attack patients. And so we knew we needed to expand. And that's when we decided, rather than expanding Edward in Naperville, that we would build a new hospital in Plainfield that would offload volume and serve wider communities that way.

So that makes sense. You know, bring the doctors to where the patients are. Correct. But what kind of money are we talking about to build this project? The hospital was projected to be a little bit over $200 million. And an independent freestanding outpatient center built on that same campus was going to be between $40 and $45 million.

So it's a large sum of money all in somewhere under $300 million. Right. And this is back 20 years ago, over 20 years ago. So it's probably a lot more, many more millions more now. And what we found is where large money is at play, corruption has a chance to enter the arena. Well, yes. And never more is that the case than probably in Chicago, Illinois. But with any building project, you have to get a permit and that's not unusual. Right.

But you had a weird call that raised some red flags for you in this process, even before you tried to get a permit. What got your spidey sense tingling? Okay. In Illinois, there's a panel called the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Board, and

And what happened here is that the governor appoints individuals to various boards. And Stu Levin and Tom Beck were appointed to this particular board. And their intent on being on this board was to sell their votes and have money that they would then distribute to the people who were important to them, Tony Rusko, Blagojevich, and others.

So, Edward Hospital had been growing tremendously, and Bill and I and others had been before this board numerous, numerous times. And we knew what to expect and how to fill out the applications. Just prior to going in front of this board, however, I got a call from Nick Hurchin, who at the time worked with Bear Stearns, a bond financing company. And he told me that I should pull the medical office building project because it was not going to be approved.

And I said, medical office buildings are 100% approved. It's really just a stamp of approval with no one has ever had an issue. And he said, well, I'm telling you, if you don't work with some of the people I'm going to recommend to you, you will not be approved.

And I was polite and simply listened to him, but thought, this guy is an idiot. This is ridiculous. So I basically ignored him. And Bill, what sounded off to you? Well, just before the meeting, Pam discussed with me the phone call she had gotten from Nick Kirchen. And one of the things that Nick had asked was that we contact Jacob Kieferbaum of Kieferbaum Construction.

Nick explained that Kieferbaum was wired pretty well with this board and that if we used his construction firm, we were a shoo-in. We were going to get this project approved. Pam and I discussed this and said, this is crazy. We've never heard of anything like this. Plus, we've never heard of Kieferbaum Construction. Even though it was a legitimate firm, they really didn't do any healthcare projects of such. They certainly hadn't done any hospitals. This is such a strange set of events, and we have so many characters at play.

You've mentioned Jacob Kieferbaum, the head of a construction firm that was quote-unquote recommended to you. But Pam also mentioned Stuart Levine. Who was he?

Stu Levine was involved fundraising for both the Republican and Democratic Party. And he was in cahoots with then Governor Rod Blagojevich and with Tony Rusko, who worked very closely with Blagojevich. And their scheme was to extort money from

from many, many different businesses in Illinois. In our particular situation, they control the votes on the hospital board so that in order to get a project approved, Kieferbaum would have actually gotten more than $1.5 million in additional funds to distribute to his people. Talk about this meeting. So,

Your first interaction with this cabal, it raises concerns because you're told on this phone call that you need to play ball or something will happen, right? Correct. But you don't think too much of it until the day of the meeting in front of the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Board. And this is, like you've mentioned, it should be a rubber stamp process that approves your permit first.

And both of you are at this meeting, correct? Correct. Yes. So walk us through how this meeting goes down. What do you feel? What are you looking at?

The best way for me to describe what it's like going before the board is not that I've ever been, but if you've ever seen these Senate testimonies, you know, you go into this big room and then the people that are being questioned are seated at this table. And, you know, you've got this senators or congresspeople looking down at you, you know, speaking through microphones. It was very akin to that.

We were seated at this table. They all had microphones. And you're in this big formal place with a huge audience. So the chairman of the board, he calls for a vote. And as he goes around, he sees that it's going to be a hung vote, even if he votes no. So with that, he gets up, walks around, whispers in the ear of one of the people who was recently appointed to the board,

He calls the vote again. The new board member who happened to be a doctor from another hospital votes no this time. The chairman votes no. The project goes down. We get denied. Pam and I are watching this. It's going, I don't believe this just happened. Like, what is going on here? Yes. Because we were getting so upset because we knew it was a sham. We knew what these guys were doing. And yet we couldn't do anything about it.

And so Pam and I were extremely upset and walked out of the meeting. And as we're out in the lobby, I feel this on my shoulder and I turn around and this guy says, Mr. Cobb and I'm Jacob Kieferbaum. I can help you get your project. And I said, get the fuck away from me. You know, he hands me his business card and he takes off. Pam and I were just fuming, fuming, Matt. That's when Bill and I were certain that this was extortion. So we have this disastrous meeting.

That is evidence to you, at least, that something shady is going on. And you're fuming, but you made the extraordinary decision for any normal person to contact the FBI. So why don't you tell me then, after this meeting, how you decided to contact the FBI? Well, I mean, nobody in their right mind calls the FBI. Right. And ultimately, I later learned from the agents that

Only people who have some mental health issues generally call them or they've been referred through an attorney because they have committed a crime and want to get a lighter sentence. So this sort of played out throughout the eight months that Bill and I worked with them. They were used to ordering people around and they would try and order Bill and I around. And I said, look,

look, you really can't talk to me this way. I called you. And they would have to apologize and say, you know what? We're just not used to working with honest people. In one of the early conversations I had with them, Patrick Murphy, an FBI agent, said to me, Pam, tell us, how do you know Tony Rescoe?

Now, if you look at Tony Rescoe, he was a major operative in corruption in Illinois. And I said, I don't know Tony Rescoe. I don't know that name. And he pressed me and he said, well, of course you do. And so I go, did he play for the Chicago Bulls? So he burst out laughing. And I think that was the beginning of him trusting me. And so the FBI said, look, we don't really think anything is happening here, but

but we can tell you're concerned. So we're going to send an agent over to your office and just do not mention this to anybody.

And so I met Patrick Murphy in my office one morning at about 7 o'clock. And he came in my office and said, we're going to wire up your private telephone, which is on your desk. And I also had a conference phone that was in the middle of a table where we would be sitting. It would be me, Kiefer Baum, and Nick Herchen. That conference phone was wired as well.

And they told me, you know, just have a normal conversation with them and we'll be listening and it'll be taped. And if anything sounds unusual to us, we're going to call you on your private line and answer that phone.

So I have Harkin and Kieferbaum in my office, and both of them had driven quite a distance to get there. And so we start talking, and they said, hey, how'd you like that meeting where you didn't get any votes? And I said, well, I was horrified and appalled. It's a medical office building. I don't understand it. And they said, well, we told you that was not going to be approved. You hadn't worked with us on anything. And then my private line rings. This is maybe five minutes into the meeting.

And I answer it, and it's the FBI saying, all right, get them out of your office, get them out of the office. And they hang up. I'm like, oh, my God, what do I do? So I am a female. I had young children. And the only thing I could pull out of myself was, oh, my God, that was the school. There's an emergency. I have to go. One of my children needs me to pick them up immediately. Oh, my God, you can tell they're rolling their eyes at me.

I'm thinking, what an easy mark I'm going to be because I can't even manage my schedule. And so it began. American Scandal is sponsored by Audible. Ever notice how a whisper can be more captivating than a shout? It's because your mind races in to fill in the blanks. Listening doesn't just inform, it invites in your imagination. And that's why Audible is such a great place to let your imagination soar.

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So with your naivete about Chicago sports, you win the FBI over and they agreed to plan with you to, I guess, confirm the allegations you had made against the members of this board and even higher. What was the plan? So they simply asked Bill and I to continue having meetings with these individuals that were

taped many times, either through face-to-face meetings, phone calls. Bill and I met them at restaurants. So it just seemed to go on and on. And part of this was Bill and I looked like we were incompetent, unable to make a decision, you know, going in front of these boards and public meetings and just being...

I'm just being crucified at these things. To Pam's point, they were not real open about what was going on. And at times it seemed like

They were idiots. I'm not saying they were, but because we would meet with them prior to a planned phone call with the bad guys and they would say like, well, what do you think we should do? And we're like, well, don't you think we should get them to do this and say this? Don't you think we should get them to go? Oh, yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe we should do that. And Pam and I are looking at each other like, who's running this show? But that's the way a lot of these pre-meetings would go.

And then there was one time when I was supposed to have a meeting, a phone call with one of the guys that may have been Kiefer Bond. I can't remember. So the FBI said, OK, you know, your phone in the office is all wired up. We're ready to go. And I said, well, wait a minute. I'm going to be out in Arizona. And they're like, oh, that's going to be a problem. So they said, OK, we'll stop by tomorrow with some equipment. So they come to my office and they bring out this little device called

It's this little square, probably about four by four inches, aluminum with wires coming. It looked like a James Bond bomb or something like this. I mean, no other way to describe it. So I'm like, all right. But how am I supposed to get through airport security with this thing? They look at each other and they go, oh, yeah, good point.

Then the inevitable comes, I guess, from the FBI. The plan is set, or at least it coalesces in a sense, and you get the straight out of a TV show request to wear a wire. You are the only person I've probably ever spoken to who's actually done this. How did that happen and how did you feel?

So Bill and I go together to the FBI office, which, of course, we've never done before. And the door is locked. And this is at a time when nobody had locked doors. You didn't get buzzed in anywhere. So we're like, whoa. So we go into the FBI office and we go into a conference room. And there were quite a number of agents in the conference room. So we introduced ourselves and they introduced themselves.

And a female agent took me into a bathroom and told me how to wear this little transmitter, a tape recorder that was probably the size of, let's say, two inches by two inches. And she said, you can either tape it in your bra or you can, you know, just tuck it into your bra. And she said, but the trick here is that you...

cannot ever touch it or play with it or make any motion. So once you're told that, you're constantly thinking you're going to touch this recorder. So she tapes this into my bra and turns it on. Once it's on, it's on. Everything you say, even if you're not

talking with one of the operatives, anyone you're talking to is being taped on this recorder. Bill, tell them about yours. Yeah, for mine, they asked me to take my shirt off and then they, similar to Pam, they have that, whatever, a transmitter, they taped that to my chest and then had me put my shirt back on

When we got WIRED, that was right before our first meeting in the restaurant, Pam, remember? Yes. They introduced us to two agents, a male and a female, who were going to act like a couple dining at a table next to ours. And they showed us that they were indeed packing guns, and they instructed us to have dinner. And then when you leave the restaurant, come back to FBI headquarters, but make sure that nobody's following you.

For me, I always like to drive fast. So I thought it was one time in my life that I had a ticket to speed because if I got pulled over, I could just say, hey, I'm working for the FBI. OK, they told me to lose somebody that's tailing me.

Again, you are one of the only people I've ever spoken to that actually have this experience. And I imagine it's as nerve-wracking as it appears. So you are sitting down at the restaurant or you get to the restaurant. This is the first time you have a wire on you. You're both probably incredibly nervous. What happens? I actually got to the restaurant a little early and sat down at the bar. I'd come from work. I was looking professional and a man sat down next to me and he goes...

hey, it looks like you're here alone. Are you here alone? And I'm thinking, oh my God, not only am I not here alone, the FBI agents are here with guns. I'm wearing a frigging wire and every move I make is being watched. And I say to this guy, no, no, I'm meeting some people. It was like unbelievably funny and just ridiculous all at the same time.

Now, earlier, you also, Pam, mentioned some of the frustration and anger of this process because this evidence gathering went on for eight months that you were wearing wires for the FBI, setting up meetings, having meetings, trying to get information.

Hurchin, Kieferbaum, Levine to say incriminating things. You were forced really to play the imbecile just to stall for time, right? Exactly. That was very hard and it was very public as well. I said, Bill, I think that

This is going up a chain of command. I think that they must have wiretaps on phones and this is somehow going up to the governor. And so I did ask a couple of the agents, I said, is this going up to Blagojevich? And they said, well, we can't tell you that.

And I said, well, I'm getting pretty tired of playing the fool. And you need to tell me something or, you know what, this is getting really hard for me. I'm used to being in charge. You know, Bill and I were basically doing two jobs, working for the FBI and running a major hospital. And they held firm, except they needed me to keep working with them. So they said, you're probably correct on the wiretapping part.

Later in the press, it came out that they had recorded more than 1,200 phone calls for Stu Levine, which is what started with Bill and I. And in this period, not only was it drawn out and forcing you to perform two jobs, but

But is it true that you couldn't tell anyone? Yes. I went to the FBI and said, look, I don't want to get fired. I need my job. I'm working with you willingly. I have got to be able to tell the chairman of the board, here's what's happening. And so I had to get a court order going up to a judge to say that I had permission to share that I was working with the FBI and wearing a wire mask.

When I met with the board chairman, I thought he was going to faint. His name was Frank Slocum. He was the president of Harris Bank, and he just turned pale. And I said, Frank, I'm not kidding. Bill Kahneman and I are working with the FBI, and you have to –

keep the board, the Edward Hospital board, involved with allowing us to continue doing this. But you can't tell them that we're working undercover. Yeah, it was very frustrating and uncomfortable, particularly with our associates at work, because

We'd have these FBI agents showing up like every other week or something, strange guys in suits. And Pam and I would go behind closed doors and we'd come out and, you know, who's that? And we're like, oh, just, you know, nobody. We have to make up stuff. And they knew we were lying. They thought we had something weird going on on the side.

Pam, tell them about the time your secretary came in and found the FBI guy under your desk. So I had an FBI agent in my office and I was sitting at my desk and he said, I've got to do something on your phone. Well, I simply rolled back. I didn't realize he was going to be under my desk.

So he's under my desk, and I'm sort of trapped still sitting there. It was a little awkward. And my secretary comes in like she did every morning and opens up the door to flip on the lights. And here I am in this chair at my desk, and a man is underneath it. It was

just surreal, bizarre. She quickly turns off the light and slams the door. And I go to the agent. I go, oh, my God, what am I going to tell her? He goes, I have no idea. And so years later when this broke, she never said a word to me about it. She was incredibly professional. But it was so uncomfortable.

And then Bill and I had worked at the hospital for many years, and we had friends there and colleagues. And part of the culture was if employees were there, we were friendly. We talked to them. And when you're wearing a wire, you cannot do that. I had...

I had a couple of people approach me and say, Pam, are you all right? What's wrong? You just don't seem to be friendly like you used to be. Over time, my fingernails started to fray. And for the first time, I had high blood pressure. The doctor, who was a friend of mine, said, Pam, you have high blood pressure. I said, no, I can't possibly. I'm athletic. I was in good shape. I did. It was definitely taking a toll.

And Pam, I'm guessing that toll might have been worse if you didn't have a friend to go through this with. I trust Bill. I would bounce ideas off of him. We could collaborate. We could laugh. We could, I mean, it made a huge difference to have two people, you know, somebody who I trusted and liked and listened to his advice. It made a huge difference for me.

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Pam, you said earlier that you had two jobs, working for the hospital and working for the FBI. But it occurs to me that you probably had three because you had your own family, too. How did this episode in your life cross over to home? It was difficult. I mean, my home phone was wired, too.

So I did have to tell my family. I told the FBI. I said, look, I'm not going to have my phones wired. My husband was a cardiac surgeon. He's going to be having patient conversations. My children are going to have normal teenage awful things to say about everything. And they said, well, we can teach you how to turn it on and off so that that doesn't happen.

But again, now I've got FBI agents at my home wiring up phones. And my family sees this. And because I'm so technologically capable, I was expecting a phone call from either Keith or Bob Herchen or Stulabin, somebody. And so I turned the phone tape on.

And I failed to remember to turn it off, and the poor FBI agents had to listen to it two hours spelling B. And I mean, they are required—they told me later—they are required to listen to the entire tape.

And they said, never in our lives had we had anyone who listened to a spelling bee on TV that they had to listen to. And then later, Bill and I had to actually go into the FBI offices in Chicago and listen to our own tapes play forever because those tapes were used in the trials for Tony Rusko, Stulivan, and Blagojevich. Those tapes were all used there.

And what the FBI had told Bill and I once after that dinner that we were talking about, we were ordering wine. We had good food to eat. And one of the FBI agents said to Bill and I, you know what? Next time at the dinner, you probably should not be ordering so much wine because people are going to think that you've had too much to drink. Do you remember that, Bill?

They brought us into the headquarters. This is, you know, as they're starting to get prepared for trial, you know, some years after our initial recording. And they set up these speakers and then they would play back the tapes and we would have the transcripts in front of us. And they wanted to make sure that the transcripts were accurate. So they'd say, is this what he said? Yes, yes, yes. And then at one point,

You hear the waitress come up and some clinking and bottles and stuff like that. And they say, wait, was that another bottle of wine you ordered? We're like, no, no, no. I think that was the table next to us. No, no, it couldn't have been us.

It sounds like throughout this entire process that you might have gotten to know the FBI a little better, perhaps won them over. What was it like, this strange working relationship? Did you get to know them as humans? Yeah. Bill and I actually became friends with one of them, Patrick Murphy. And we talked to these guys all the time. When the story broke, I said to Bill, I'm kind of bereft.

We got used to interacting with them and trying to figure out how to make a difference in right and wrong. And once you're outed, and that's a whole other story, but they're done with you. To Pam's point, we became very friendly. He was a very nice guy, straightforward. And I used to play in a cover band. So we would play out once a month or something like that. And Patrick would come to our shows. We also went to his retirement party, which was lovely.

So in this very strange journey, a long one, you are experiencing a lot of negative emotions because throughout the investigation and certainly in the press and the trial, some very pointed and ugly things were mentioned about you. What were they and how did you react? So here's what some of the operatives were saying on the phone after some of these meetings was,

These became public. The radio played them. It was at the trial. Well, Pam really outdid herself, didn't she? What an arrogant bitch. She is such an arrogant bitch. Can you imagine walking out on that meeting and she had to come back and apologize? You know what? She is absolutely appalled that she didn't get her

project approved today. I mean, she just can't believe it. I mean, she came in to get her project approved, and she actually had no fucking way of getting it approved.

And they're right. I honestly thought that our message was so compelling that even bad people would do the right thing. The FBI was dying laughing at me because they know bad people don't. So after this excruciating period, the undercover work comes to an end. How did that happen, though? Basically, the Sun-Times broke the story of

And no one knows who went to the newspapers with this story. The FBI was outraged.

And no one was prepared for the story to break. I think the Tribune really started uncovering that Bill and I had brought this to the attention of the FBI. And then from then on until the trials, they were uncovering just reams of documents on Tony Resco, who the players were, Blagojevich's staff, the whole Illinois Health Facilities Planning Board.

individuals who had contributed $25,000, $50,000, $150,000.

to various campaigns, and then they were rewarded with board seats where they could use it for making money. So it just got uglier and uglier and uglier. And during this time, that's when one of the competitors for me said, oh, well, Pam had to have been involved with this. Pam was probably the biggest player of anybody in this. So even when you're standing up to do the right thing, you get people who think that you were involved.

Ultimately, Patrick Fitzgerald, who was the major player for corruption, he was in charge of the FBI in Chicago, called and thanked me and he said, we just don't have honest people do this.

Bill, what was your experience when the press broke the story of your involvement and your cover was blown? Similar to Pam's, absolutely flabbergasted because this was supposedly under seal or whatever they call it from the court that, you know, no one was supposed to be aware of it, to talk about it. And the next thing we know, our names are in the newspaper and now we're

friends, colleagues, everybody else is coming up to us saying, you know, what's going on? And to Pam's point, it wasn't all positive, like people saying, wow, this is great that you guys did this. I think there was a lot of skepticism on the point of people saying, what's really going on here? Why is the FBI involved? So that made us take a step back to say, wait a minute, you know, we thought we're doing the right thing here. And now all of a sudden, people are looking at us like we're doing something wrong.

So it was very frustrating. And I guess you felt powerless to be able to do anything to stop it.

I have to be honest here that listening to you, you're not making a great case for going to the FBI and working with them. Yeah, touche. I would still do it again today. I mean, it was the right thing to do. I was just so pissed off at these guys for trying to screw around with us that, you know, I wanted to get them. You just get fed up with this stuff. And it was finally an opportunity to maybe put some of these guys behind bars.

I still believe good people have to stand up. And there were many positive things, too. We got huge accolades from many, many places. But I do want people to be prepared that you do have to be able to have some resiliency. And Bill and I did. We definitely did. And I would certainly do it again. The FBI called me the day before they were going to arrest Blagojevich at his home. And they said, make sure you watch the news. And then they

went very early in the morning to his home and they called him and he answered the phone and they said, we're the FBI, we're here at your front door. And he thought it was a joke. He hung up the phone. They ultimately assured him later in the second call that they in fact were the FBI and they arrested him. How did you feel when that happened? I felt great.

In the end, the FBI got their man or men. But did you get your hospital expansion? No. No. We got our medical office building and immediate care center, but we never did get the hospital.

We ended up building a very strong, excellent, state-of-the-art outpatient complex and had to add additional beds on the Everett campus to keep up with the growth. That was our second plan. So am I hearing it correct that Plan A was scuttled by this operation and you had to pivot to Plan B? Correct. Yes. So I guess finally then, when you think about the extortion that was attempted, the scandal that went all the way up to then-Governor Blagojevich,

What is the takeaway for you? I'm hearing a lot of echoes of civic duty and certainly you withstood quite a bit, but what else did you learn in this process? Oh boy. I'd like to think that most people are good and want to do the right thing, but I have come to believe that power and money will trump doing the right thing. And that's hard to believe. Yeah. I'd have to go along with Pam again. I'm,

I'm very glad we did what we did. I agree with her that good people have to stand up when there's something going on that's wrong. But unfortunately, it's made me very jaded. You know, even though there was, you know, how many of these guys went to prison, there's dozens of others lining up to take their place. So it is a little bit discouraging in that sense. But at the same time, if nobody ever stands up to these people, then it's just going to get worse.

Thank you both, Pam Davis and Bill Kotman, for joining me today on American Scandal. It was a fascinating conversation. Thank you for having us. Thank you. That was my conversation with whistleblowers Pam Davis and Bill Kotman, who worked with the FBI for eight months to expose corruption in the Illinois governor's office.

From Wondery, this is Episode 5 of Rod Blagojevich from American Scandal. In our next series, during the Cold War, an unassuming FBI agent named Robert Hansen decides to start selling government secrets to the Soviets. His exploits over the next two decades will make him one of the most damaging spies in U.S. history and an embarrassment to the entire intelligence community.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. If you enjoy American Scandal, be sure to give us a five-star rating and leave a review. I read every one of them. I also have two other Wondery podcasts you might like, American History Tellers and Business Movers. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You

You can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. And before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, go to notthatlindseygram.com. That's notthatlindseygram.com. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham, for Airship.

This episode was produced by Pauly Stryker. Senior interview producer is Peter Acuni. Sound design by Gabriel Gould. Music by Lindsey Graham. Our senior producers are Gabe Riven and Andy Herman. Executive producers are Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer-Beckman, and Marsha Louis for Wondery.

Welcome to another round of Boardroom or Miro Board. Today we talk retrospectives with Agile coach Maria. Let's go. First question. You've spent two hours in a team retro, but the only input you've heard is Dave's. Boardroom or Miro Board? Boardroom. In Miro, Dave can't hog the space because everyone can add thoughts anonymously, online at the same time. Correct. Next. You need the team to act on feedback fast. So you turn all those retro notes into Jira tasks. Miro all the way. And...

And I can assign those tasks to teammates. You're nailing this. Now, you see hundreds of sticky notes from the retro. A real mess. But you organize them into five themes in just seconds. Miro, I basically get back an entire hour when I use its AI tools for clustering.

And she's done it. For a limited time, visit miro.com slash retro now for a free business plan trial to unlock advanced retro tools like private mode, voting, and two-way jira syncing. That's miro.com slash retro now.