Denise Didn't Come Home | 8. The Truth Is Good
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I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Back in 2019, when Karen was dying of cancer, I went out to Colorado to meet her for the first time. And on that trip, I met some of her family. Hi. Jamie. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. How are you doing? Good. Come on in. She's sleeping right now. Karen's daughter, Jamie, was staying with Karen, helping her with whatever she needed. Can I get you a cup of coffee or something? I'm okay. Thank you.

And I was really excited to meet Karen's last surviving sister. Is it Anthony? Yes. Trish. Trish. My God. It's so nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. How are you doing? I feel like we should know each other. I know, right? How's everything? Option is.

I sat down on the couch in the living room with Karen. Let's see the white book first. We could go downstairs. And Trish brought me a binder of everything Karen had collected on Denise's case. Here it all is. Oh my. This is like a treasure chest of information. I tried to tell you. This has been a very busy woman. There was a mother load. I was blown away by how much Karen had done. Oh my God. Karen, I didn't know you did this much.

But when I glanced up at Trish and Jamie, they just looked kind of sad. "Okay guys, I wasn't obsessed, but I was determined, right?" "Yeah." For a long time, Karen told me she didn't hear from Trish much, that she lived off the grid somewhere in Oregon. So I never thought I would actually meet her, but I wanted to talk to her because she was one of the people who knew Karen the best. And then one morning, I got my chance.

It was a quiet day. Karen was in the other room on oxygen, listening to music. And I pulled Trish aside for an interview. It's nice to finally be able to talk to you. Like, I've heard so much about you, you know, from Karen and everything. Yeah, I didn't, I don't know how much information I can give you, but shoot. What are your memories of Denise? She was a riot. She was powerful. She was funny. She was very outgoing and gregarious and...

I remember her bringing me outside in the summer and sitting under this big bush where you could hide and reading to me. And I was nine years old when she left. Life after Denise was not good. It was like somebody set a bomb off in her family. Everybody just scattered. It was just me and Karen mostly left to our own devices. Like after Denise, mom really crawled in the bottle.

Dad just kind of retreated. I think he spent the first few years looking for the person that did this. He came home from work, he ate dinner, he took a shower, he got dressed and he left. And you didn't see him again until 1, 2 in the morning. And I really think he just drove around, just trying to find someone to be responsible that he could do something about. What do you think the short-term and long-term effects are of Denise's murder in your life? There was a certain amount of years that I just didn't live with it.

Then when I got older was when I realized, "You got stuff, girl." And I started just doing a lot of self-work so that I could live a good life. And I wanted to be okay in this life and not go down the rabbit hole like I saw a lot of people I love did. Trish was choosing her words carefully, but I could tell she was talking about Karen. To me, Karen was a hero on a lifelong search for truth and justice. But Trish didn't seem to see it that way. There was a few times I was pretty worried.

She just went in so many directions, and it was really to the exclusion of everything else in her life. So I had a few bouts of really being mad at her about it, like, you got a family right here that needs you. Could you stop? We live in the here and now. I didn't realize at first why Trish had been so nervous to talk to me, but then she told me. Through this process, she's dredged up a lot of memories that may or may not have been accurate, and those memories have changed for her, so I'm not sure. She believes she was like one of the last people to see Denise.

I don't remember her and Denise leaving the house together. It took me a second to catch up to what Trish was saying. That some of what Karen remembered about the night Denise died might not be true. I started to push back.

I told Trish about my trip to the library, how I went through old newspapers and found a listing for the movie Karen remembered seeing that night, Ice Station Zebra. Ice Station Zebra was playing at 7.30 that night. Okay. And then there was Karen's memory of being stalked by a guy in a blue car. And the fact that Cottingham told her that he drove a blue car around the time Denise was murdered. That gave me peace of mind. Okay. There's things that I know are real that she disputes with me.

And I've debated that with her, but she's so positive sometimes about these things that I can't really tell you what's real in your brain and what's not. I always took Karen at her word. Because she was there that night, I never questioned her memories. I had no idea that the rug was about to be pulled out from under me. My name is Anthony Scalia. From Truth Media and Sony Music Entertainment, this is Denise Didn't Come Home. ♪

Between 1969 and 1996, what were you doing?

People will say, "You're not remembering it right." You don't forget. You go over it and over it and over it in your mind. Karen might have said something over and over and over until she got convinced of it. Chapter 8: The Truth is Good I'm sitting in the Bergen County Prosecutor's Office, in one of the most bland conference rooms you can imagine, waiting. Over the years, I've made a few requests to look at Denise Velasquez's case file. They were all denied.

But now, I'm finally getting a chance to go through it. A detective walks into the room with a huge cardboard box and plops it down on the table. So basically, as I read this, I can make my notes here? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool. Talk into your recorder and do whatever you gotta do. Thank you. The file is alphabetical, so I start with A. And I'm just there with my little recorder, reading it all into my microphone.

Autopsy findings, ligature mark on the neck, possibly from a necklace. Compression linear mark encircling right wrist. Meanwhile, this detective is sitting next to me looking at me like, are you really going to read all of that? I remember thinking, yeah. I was going to read every single word of every single piece of paper in that police file. I was not going to miss a thing. ♪♪

Karen had always felt like this investigation was pushed aside, or that this investigation wasn't followed through as thoroughly as it should have been. The file proved the opposite. These investigators worked very hard on the case from day one. They did so much work. Patrol Anthony Badle believes he saw Denise, a young girl walking off Old Hook Road. This is very rare. Five different people said they saw a girl on Old Hook Road that night.

They said she was petite, wearing dark clothing, and walking alone on the side of the road. A girl with dark clothing, Old Hook Road, Southside. At 8:30, somebody saw her here, and at 8:45, she's further down the road, and at 9, she's over there. Morris Greb said he saw a person between 8 and 9:30, a girl walking to Westwood, Southside. In his confession, Cottingham said he made a U-turn on Old Hook Road to pick up Denise.

And it turns out that there was a witness who saw him do that. Around 9 to 9:10, saw a dark-colored Pontiac, 66 to 69, make a turn or stop near the girl. So there Cottingham was. Just like he said he was. I couldn't help but wish that the witness had remembered a little bit more. A few numbers of Cottingham's license plate or a better description of his car. That might have made all the difference. Spared Karen a life of searching.

But that just didn't happen. I kept digging through the box, and underneath a mountain of binders, photos, and papers, I found a manila folder. And inside that, I found Karen's original statement to the police. Karen Velasco. So this questioning of Karen was done on 7-17-1969 by Captain Brower and Sergeant Deluzio. And I was like, okay, this is it.

Karen states that she is now pretty certain that on Monday evening, she left the house at about 6:00 p.m. to go to a movie in Bergenfield. It started off just like Karen remembered. She left her house when it was still daylight to go catch a bus to the movie theater. But in her statement, she didn't mention anything about Denise leaving the house with her. Karen did not know where Denise was going Monday evening. Oh my God. I kept reading.

Oh my god.

He said that Denise left the house at 8pm, two hours after Karen went to the movies. That meant their paths didn't even cross that night. Karen's memory of being the last person to see Denise alive, the thing that sent her on an obsessive journey to find Denise's murderer, it just never happened. So then I'm thinking, okay, what about Cottingham? What about the blue car? And then I found a second statement Karen gave to the police a few days later. Karen Velasquez states that about one and a half weeks ago, she left her home

A man in a blue Cadillac tried to get Karen to get into his car. Man was white, heavy set, had sunglasses on, short hair, dark hair. It turned out that Karen had been stalked by a man in a blue car. But it didn't happen the night Denise was murdered. It happened a week and a half before. I thought, "Oh my God, she didn't even see the blue car that night." All her guilt and pain hinged on these memories. That never happened. I just felt this deep sadness.

I had no doubt that Karen believed her memories were real, but she suffered needlessly all her life, blaming herself for her sister's death. Why? What was the point of it all? I knew that if I was ever going to really understand Karen and what she went through, I was going to have to go back to Colorado and talk to all the people who knew her the best. So I booked a flight. From the award-winning creators of the hit podcast Father Wants Us Dead comes the stunning new true crime series In the Shadow of Princeton.

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I'm making this story about Denise and Karen, and I do need some answers to some of these questions, so... I'll try my best. Hopefully I have answers for you. What was your early life like? Chaotic. When she got pregnant with me, it was very important to my dad that they get married, which I don't know that she was 100% behind. I don't think she was even 100% behind having me. I know that.

moved to a little cabin up in Nederland. I think we lived there until I was about two and a half. And I don't have a lot of memories of it. Once, I'd asked Karen about the years after Denise's murder. She told me she went through some dark times, but she never elaborated on that. I know it wasn't a very healthy relationship between her and my dad. I think there was a lot of drinking and drug use and violence. And we left in the middle of the night and got on a plane and went to her parents' house in New Jersey.

How old were you when you came back to Colorado? Five. And what was life like after you came back? That's when the chaos really started. She was a very poor single mom who was struggling to try and, I think, find herself. And just struggling to make ends meet, so it was a lot of being in survival mode. I remember having those actual food stamps that looked like dollar bills, but they were food stamps, and we would go to the gas station and buy candy.

having the big blocks of government cheese, a lot of being evicted from apartments and having to move on a yearly basis, a lot of chaos and clutter. What was her personality like back then? Frantic. It was a constant state of worry. I think it was a rough time for her. When did you first really understand what had happened to Denise? I always knew.

I think it was repeated to me over and over and over again throughout my childhood. She was in a deep state of trauma from it. And if I went out, maybe I'm just playing in the yard and she couldn't see me or find me, she would panic and it would be, "You don't understand. I had visions of you lying dead in a gutter. Do you know what happened to my sister?" And she would tell me the story over and over again. So I left home when I was 15.

Years after Jamie moved out, Karen started looking into Denise's murder.

I can remember at first I was very excited and I thought there was great possibilities of finding some peace in her life with it because I know it's something that had tormented her for all of my life. And I thought this was wonderful. That changed at some point when I felt like it became like an unhealthy obsession. It just kept going and going and I started feeling like it was a bottomless pit.

I just felt like it was taking another life, her life. Like I would call her to tell her about my son's sporting event or, you know, my daughter's accomplishment in theater or something. But I couldn't because we are now investigating Cottingham and all the ins and outs and turns of it. And I was just like, oh, you're missing life that's happening right now that you're not going to get back.

I'm so grateful to you for that reason. She needed someone who she could talk to for hours and hours, and you hung on every word. - It's so good. - And I appreciate that you stepped in because I could call her and talk to her about other things, and then she'd go, "You know what? I have a call scheduled with Anthony. I'm gonna have to let you go." ♪ ♪

My mom was diagnosed with stage four cancer and she said, "But the podcast must go on." And I was like, "You are insane. The fuck is the matter with you that you care about a podcast in this moment?" I was like, "Really? To your dying breath, this is what we're going to do with our time." When you came, she had just been put on hospice.

And for whatever reason, she came back to life in that moment. And after you left, that just slowly started to deteriorate. And she just got quieter and slower. It was Mother's Day, and I looked and I saw all these missed calls. And she had just started not doing well. So I dropped what I was doing and I ran to her house just a couple blocks away.

She was in a panic. She was having a hard time breathing and she was in a lot of pain. And she never really came back from that. I spent the night in the hospice center with her the second night she was there. And I was playing her some of her favorite music. Her breathing had just changed and things had shifted. And so I just scooped her up, like put my arm behind her back and held her hands. And she just took her last breaths with me just alone in the room with her.

I was very grateful to be there for it. Jamie and I sat on her living room floor, talking until 2 in the morning. In the back of my mind, I was dreading telling her what I'd learned about Karen's memories. But she had told me the truth about her mom, and I wanted to do the same. So I told her everything I'd learned from Denise's file. The whole story about them splitting up doesn't seem to be corroborated by anything in the police reports.

Well, I don't find it like super surprising. I think she needed to add an element of guilt. Like she could have stopped it or now she's responsible for it or something. Sometimes trauma, you can misremember things on purpose, like as a self-protection, maybe something that gives you a little bit more control in the situation. You know, you're just looking for that piece where you could put yourself back in the driver's seat.

Karen needed to feel like she could have kept Denise from walking away, or that if she just acted differently, the man in the blue car might have taken her instead of Denise. But there was nothing that 13-year-old girl could have done to prevent her sister's murder. I have no idea what my life would have been like had my mother not been traumatized years before my birth, but I think it would have been very different. I am a very anxious person.

I worry about everything all the time. And both my kids are very anxious people. It's the ripple effect. When something tragic happens to one person, it causes so many extended tragedies in the lives around them. One of her most admirable traits was her insane level of compassion for everybody.

She was like a freight train. She would make friends in the airport, random strangers, and she would get their whole life story and then start, "I'm gonna help you out, and let's figure this out, and I'm gonna write a letter to your boss, send them money and things to help them get their life back on track." She was a powerhouse of like a helper and fixer in the community. And I think there's not enough of that in this world.

If she can make me a little more compassionate, make my kids a little bit more compassionate, that's a new ripple. Maybe as that ripple widens, it can turn into something else and generations in the future don't have to suffer

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When I got back to New Jersey, I had one last thing to do. I needed to have another conversation with Karen's sister, Trish. After finally being given access to Denise's file, there is some information that I learned that I think you might find interesting, if that's okay with you. Sure. I told her what I found out, that she was right. Karen was not with Denise the night she was killed. In the beginning, this was one reason I was hesitant to become involved.

Because I was afraid I would contradict her and maybe even sometimes strongly disagree and say, I really think she was wrong. And I didn't want to do that. I'm glad I decided not to let that stop me from being a part of this. I don't mean to dishonor her or belittle her or anything. I just can't help but be honest about it.

She had her struggles, and there were dark times in her life. They never got the better of her. She always picked herself up, but she went through it. She just didn't want it to be a big part of the story, you know, but it was. And it matters. The truth is always the best. We think the truth should be this great thing, but often the truth sucks. All it does is piss you off, but you can't change a thing unless you have the truth.

ugly as it may be, hard as it may be, it almost always hurts. But you come out the other side of it and it's all better. And I appreciate that honesty because I love Karen. And Anthony, I loved her more than anything in this world. She was everything to me. I carry her with me all the time and I hope right now she's understanding that the truth is good and that for you doing what you're doing, it's pretty necessary. I'm glad you're there. I'm glad Karen found you and

I can't thank you enough for everything. You say you're not family, but you feel like family. And my gosh, you've devoted a lot of your life to this, so you are somewhat in the family. Well, I'm honored. I love you guys. You're all the best, really. I'm glad we did this. Okay, let me just adjust a couple of things. Give me a second. How you doing? You feeling all right? It's emotional for me. I'm in the studio with my producer, Ryan, having a final conversation about this story.

Karen always wanted you to finish this project. And now that you have, do you think she would like it? I think she would have had a hard time with it. I mean, I would love to just talk to her and say, you might not like it, you know, this is different, but I love you. And we all do. Like, whether Karen left the house with Denise or not, or fell apart in other ways in her life, it didn't matter. At the end of the day, Karen was my friend.

And if I can just tell her story, the whole story, I can live with the fact that it's a little different than she would have wanted it to be. Okay, tell me about the last time you visited Karen. Karen had always told me, you know, Colorado is a beautiful state. You should drive around. You should see it. So that's what I did. And it was beautiful. And one morning when I was there, I decided to visit her grave.

So I pulled up to the cemetery and I remember I was sitting in my car for a while just thinking to myself like, you know, this is it. I might not be back here. This might be the last time I get a chance to say goodbye to Karen. I just wanted to say hello and goodbye. This project is turning into something that neither of us ever imagined. I wish I could share it with you, but I think I am. I miss calling you and talking about nothing.

There are not enough people like you in the world. I know how important this story is to you. And through it, you will never be forgotten. This is your big moment. I love you. I miss you. I'll get to work.

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I want to say thank you to the friends and family of Karen and Denise Velasco, who opened their doors for me and kept their memories alive throughout the years. And a special thanks to Ron Ravetto and Denise DeVirgilis. Denise Didn't Come Home is a production of Truth Media in partnership with Sony Music Entertainment. I'm your host, Anthony Scalia. The show was produced by Ryan Swiker and me. Story editing by Mark Smerling. Kevin Shepard is our associate producer. Scott Curtis is our production manager.

From Sony, our executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch and Catherine St. Louis. Fact-checking by Dania Suleiman. Kenny Kusiak did the mix. Sound design by Kenny Kusiak and Ryan Swikert. Music by Kenny Kusiak, Epidemic Sound, and Marmoset. Our title track is Gimme Some by Weevil. Thank you for listening all the way to the end. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love to hear from you. Give me a call at 646-665-2748 and leave a voicemail.

Don't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps other people find the show. And thanks, one last time, for listening.