Phoenix in Shambles, Cleveland’s Ceiling, Best Third Bananas, NBA Refs, St. John’s, and ‘Season on the Brink’ With Ryen Russillo
02:15:41 Share

You're listening to the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. FanDuel Sportsbook is the best place to bet on the NBA. We have these fun little Tuesday, Friday player performance stuff. We have a same game parlays. We have picks for me sometimes and boosts and all kinds of fun things. Get ready in the playoffs. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app today to get in on the action. And by the way, the ringer is committed to responsible gaming.

Please visit theringer.com slash RG to learn more. Listen to the end of this episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus presidents like states game problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit RG-HOPE.com.

Coming up, going to talk a lot of basketball with Marcelo and somehow we're barely going to talk about March Madness. I'm sorry. We love the NBA. It's next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer and the ultimate trophy. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. Michelob Ultra, crisp, refreshing, only 95 calories, a superior light beer.

No matter the game, sport, or season, Superior is worth playing for. So sign up for Ultra Courtside at michaelobultra.com slash courtside, and you can enjoy some of these games with a nice beer in your hand. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025, Anheuser-Busch, Michelob Ultra. Registered by beer. St. Louis, Missouri. Must be 21 plus to order alcohol. Alcohol available only in select markets.

We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have a new White Lotus recap on the Prestige TV podcast, me, Mallory Rubin, and Joanna Robinson. Episode five is an all-time, all-time banger, and we are breaking it down. As soon as you finish that episode, you can listen to our recap. Also, I have new rewatchables coming on Monday. It's kind of

kind of moved into sports movie month. So we're doing a days of thunder, Tom Cruise, his 16th rewatchables movie. So you can check that out. That's on video on Spotify as well, or you can watch it on the ring of movies, YouTube channel. Uh, we have the Sonic boom podcast that we did in 2019 for luminary. It's now available on the ringer podcast network.

And you can get it on our Book of Basketball 2.0 feed. If you remember, the Sonics were one of the most iconic franchises in the NBA. They won the 1979 title. And then all of a sudden they packed their bags for Oklahoma. And Sonic Boom tells the story of basketball and politics, wealth and power, revealing new truths about the NBA's greatest heist. It was a nine-episode series and we're going to be dropping...

I think twice a week over the course of the next month, especially relevant now that OKC is the favorite to win the NBA title. So anyway, you can check that out. And then last thing, Fandle Sportsbook doing player performance doubles, two-leg parlays on Tuesdays, player prop combined with a team to win. And we're doing a ringer PBT

a profit boost token on any player performance bet placed on Tuesday games. You get one choice. I'm going to tweet out my picks on Tuesday. We've got some good games. Milwaukee Golden State on Tuesday, Cleveland and the Clippers. Stay tuned for my picks. Be sure to claim the ringer PBT in the carousel on the FanDuel Sportsbook app.

This Tuesday coming up, Priscilla and I are going to talk a lot of NBA stuff. We are just disgusted with the Suns. Intrigued by the Cavs. OKC, where are they going? We have a lot of fun little gimmicks for you. We're going to talk about season number two. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. ♪♪♪

All right, we are taping this. It is four o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. All the March Madness stuff just came out. Our long national nightmare is over. Another Phoenix Suns nationally televised game is behind us. How much longer, Rosillo? Here's the case for the season being too long. We don't have to go through the death march of the last 20 Suns games, among other things. But God, can't they move stuff around? Can't they flex? What can they do?

At one point, Wisconsin had outscored Phoenix through like 24 minutes of real basketball. I was keeping track of it, you know, and rarely will I ever be at home going, when does Atlanta Brooklyn start? Because that's where I was with them. And I know they kind of pretended it was close. Bill, they fuck up on defense so many times that I can't even, sometimes I can't figure out who was wrong. Yeah. Like I have these plays. There's too many suspects. Yeah. Like I'll have these plays written down and be like, what happened on that one?

And then at the very end, there's a, I think it's a Dorian Finney Smith three where it looked like youth league basketball where three guys were on Luca and you know, they don't, I just, I hate watching them. I've obviously expressed that we don't need to spend a lot of time on this. They hate having you watch them.

They hate playing together. They hate watching each other as they play basketball together. It's a pretty rare situation of a team that seems reasonably talented on paper that we have these teams that bring the best out of each other. And this team just brings the worst out of each other for whatever reason. I have no answer for it. I was going to have a little segment. It should never be this bad. It should never be this bad. Like as bad as they are, people can make fun of it or whatever. It's ridiculous. They're this bad.

Like coming out of the gate, you would think you have between 52 and 56 points per game from two guys. You should be in every game at that point, no matter how bad your defense is, whatever you're missing, you should at least be hanging around. They're down 10, 15, 20. Nobody seems to care. I was going to do a little segment later, but we can do it now called, I just don't have the answer. And if I had like a son's son's friend who was like, what do you think's wrong with this team?

And I was like, I honestly don't know. I don't know why it's even worse than it was last year when it was like, oh, it's Vogel's fault. Maybe it's Nurkic's fault. Well, they traded Nurkic. It's still bad. I don't understand it. I don't get it. Last year, remember they had that ridiculous fourth quarter point differential that was so absurd. It was so bad. It was historically bad. And it still didn't really make any sense because you're like, well, it can't actually be that bad. And then there was an injury part of it where you could point to how often have you had the three guys there

And this year you can't point to any of that stuff. And it's like, look, I actually probably watch them more than I should because I'm still amazed. And I'm not talking about them not being like a four seat or whatever, but this team sucks.

And even when they had that winning streak, which we've talked about in the past, they had that stretch, but they'd lost to Charlotte and they barely beat Charlotte and they had a weird Wizards game that they almost blew and they were putting together like a decent record. And even then I'm like, I don't like this team at all. And I think a lot of it's just

the defensive effort, the lack of competitiveness, the point of attack defense, whatever their help rules are, they don't know what they are. They don't care to know what they are. They're just an absolute mess. And you're right. People can point to this and be like, oh, this is why you shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. Teams are never going to say, oh, you know what we're going to do? Not bring in stars because of what happened at Phoenix. But this is...

This is so bad. You know, I actually do think it's more than just, you know, when the nets were messed up, those guys didn't really play or they were hurt. Yeah, it was Durant, Kyrie and obviously Harden. And then, you know, the Simmons part of it's a different factor altogether. But I I watch in amazement. But I'm I think I'm done after today. Well, you know what else is funny when they're on on the same night where there's an awesome game?

Like if you watch them after you watch like Celtics thunder the other night and how hard everybody's going, every possession and the switching and the scrambling and the intention, the intensity and the aggressiveness. And then you watch the sons like basically playing like it's an all-star game. I, you know, there was an article on ESPN on Friday where it was kind of, it wasn't a now they tell us because the season's still going, but there was some breadcrumbs through, uh,

strewn throughout, including some good Ishbia quotes. There was a hilarious Bradley Beal quote about, I've got my no trade clause, I'm doing great. But reading that piece, they're basically saying, look, Ishbia's gone, Booker's an untouchable. That's the one guy, he's basically saying we're trading Durant in the summer, which everybody knows. I don't think anybody should be an untouchable on this team. The way the last three years have gone,

If I was, if the two of us were in a room, we were the conciliaries for Ishby and he's like, well, we can't trade Booker. I would be like, we can't really like everybody's available. In my opinion on that team, I know they're going to build around Booker, but from what we've seen from him, the last couple of playoffs and then this season and last season too, I just don't feel like there's an untouchable guy in this team. If the Rockets were going to overpay for Booker,

I would just think about it at least. I wouldn't just say blanket. No way. We're not trading them. You like Booker more than I do, though. I do. I do. You know, today was a bad shooting game, you know, but I also watched him in so many of these stretches in the fourth quarter where he starts the fourth by himself with whatever role guys they're trying to mix and match with them. And whatever his efficiency is supposed to be in those moments, he's

I mean, it's just shot to hell because there's no spacing. Like, remember when Ryan Dunn hit threes for a couple weeks and everybody was like, how did this guy, how did he last so late? And then every scout said, because he can't shoot. And guess what? He can't shoot. The Nick Richards thing, moving out, Nurkic was supposed to help a little bit. I mean, we've covered all the stuff where I felt like with their restrictions, they actually did a really good job on the margins of all of this stuff. I mean, you can sit here and keep blaming Beal for all of it, but at some point, like,

Booker and Durant just have to move on from the fact that Beal's not available. He's not competitive. You know, I don't know that he's as prideful as you need to be from a guy that's getting paid that much money. And maybe we had all the hints when he was with the Wizards. And it's funny, we get on these guys' cases about asking out of situations sometimes. And not every case is the same, so I don't think you should be married to every player is wrong or every player is right, which, you know, other people, you can find them doing that. But should we have known when Beal was like, oh, I'm good in Washington? Yeah.

Right. This is great. Was that the all-time clue? If you were Booker, why would you want to stay? I don't know. Because, you know, Ishbia's quotes, I understand where he's coming from. But you can't just grit your teeth and be better in the NBA. Yeah.

Right. It's like, we're not going to tank where we have too much pride to do that. So we're going plan B and not everybody thinks that they should do plan B, but that's what we're going to do. It's like, okay, cool. You have no draft picks. You have no way to improve your roster. You're not going to be able to sign free agents. You're over the apron. Uh, you're not going to get nearly what you think you're going to get for Durant. You're just not.

He's going to be in year 19 next year and he's not as impactful two ways as he used to be. And if anything, like I would think he's a pretty big injury risk at the age he's at. I just don't think people are pointing up big, big packages for him. Who's doing it. Let's we go through teams right now. Find me the team. That's going to be like, yeah, Durant. First of all, somebody will do it. But what's the, what is it though? Like let's say Miami strikes out an off free agents. I'm like, all right, what let's go for KD. What's the offer?

Like two years ago. Yeah, but it's the kind of team like that. It's like a semi-desperate team. There's other teams that I think with what you've seen from Durant the last couple of years with how unhappy his teams are. And I should mention, I like Kevin Durant. He's been on a lot of unhappy teams now in the 2020s. I would be scared if I had a young team. Like, let's bring in this guy as the widely leadership vet. Like, can you do that?

All right. So I wrote some things down. So if we're just in it now, let's get to it. Because, you know, last year we were watching Dallas and the Clippers play in that playoff series and we were talking and it was kind of like a fun series, but it was also weird. And it was just you didn't really know what to expect. Kawhi goes down and Dallas gets through it or whatever. And then.

You've got all these guys out there where it's like clearly you would do anything to get Kawhi and then you double down on all of it to get Paul George because Paul George gets you Kawhi. We've been over it with Lawrence Frank and Ballmer and in the moment, you'd be like, hey, we can get Kawhi if we move in for Paul George. It's like, all right, done. What are we doing? And then they make the Harden deal and they're like the only team that's going to pay him. Maybe. I hated it. On the Dallas side. Okay, but on the Dallas side, you have the Kyrie bet.

which at the time hated that too. Right. You're going, what are these guys doing? Do you want to talk about breadcrumbs to clues for Nico Harrison later on? Yeah. Um, who also after the Luca trade said that they don't do scary transactions. It's like you actually did the scariest transaction that you could have done in the league at the time. And it's been awesome. Kyrie's been awesome for them. It sucks. He's hurt. Cause it's just been fun to see him be kind of happy as a basketball player again. Anyway. So the point is, is that we were talking about that series, uh,

I'm like, this series is an example of why GMs are just like, yeah, I know what all you guys are saying. But in the playoffs, we need dudes that are at that level that can find a way to get buckets. And I think the Jimmy Butler lesson is another reminder of think about his market. Think about how much we talk about it. All of us that aren't working in leagues. And then all of a sudden, the Golden State's like, yeah, we'll do something for it. They didn't give up a ton. But then we'll also throw 100 million at this guy. And it's worked and it's been great.

But I think there are constant reminders as we talk about Durant for however down we can think everyone is on one of these players. These guys that are all going to go to the Hall of Fame,

And granted, there's an age where it's no longer worth it. But Durant's still probably in the window where another team goes, you know what? Maybe we're a 48 to 52 win team, but we're probably not beating anybody in the second round. Definitely not in the third round. So does Durant increase our ceiling despite his injury history? And I think the unhappiness history is the bigger point that you bring up. So I'm with you, but I think these guys constantly remind us

that the pursuit of these players as tarnished as they can be at some point, even at their lowest lows of approval, there's still a market for them, right? Or haven't we learned this lesson enough yet? Yeah, it's less the market for the players and more the desperation of the suitors. You know, the Warriors are staring at that Jimmy Butler trade for two months.

And it got to the point with Steph, like, Steph's going to be 37. We're going to waste another year. He's already breaking down. We have to do something. And you talk yourself into it. And also the price dropped, which I think really helped them as well. It got to the point where it was basically a first Wiggins and that was it. And also once Butler knew he wasn't going to give his way to the last day, then he's like, all right, now I'll go here if we do the extra year. But the Butler thing is a really...

To me, this ties into it. If they had gotten Duran instead of Butler, do you think the Warriors would be playing this well?

Because I would argue one of the things that I think, and I've watched a ton of Golden State. Like I am just so fired up about the Steph comeback. Steph's now making like a second team all NBA run. Like it's kind of stealth, but I think by the time we get to the end of the season, I think he's in the top 10 conversation. But I think what's made this run special for these guys is that Butler doesn't care what his stats are.

Everybody on that team is sacrificing. Butler will have games where he doesn't even really shoot. Like he's doing like the 2015 Iguodala. I'll just play some defense. I'm over here if you need me. Oh, you need me? I'll score right now on my guy. But for the most part, he's completely bought in. I don't know if Durant at this point in his career would be able to do all the glue guy stuff that Butler's doing. I don't know if he's that kind of player anymore. To me, he's like, we need him because like Orlando.

Like that's a weird fit, right? They have Palo and Franz. It makes no sense. But Orlando needs somebody who can be like, I can score a bucket right now. I got this clear out. Like it's a team like that, that needs scoring. I don't know if it was golden state necessarily.

And who knows if he would have been happy? We already have his answer. He wouldn't have been. Yeah, right. Because he clearly didn't want to go there. Right. So even if he had said yes, I mean, I guess if you're playing it out some alternate universe where he's excited, let's do this again. But I don't think that's who he was going to be. And I'm with you. Like the Butler passing part of it,

somebody that you just trust in some of these big spots. You know, Kerr's talked about just how smart he is and how good he is in the assist turnover stuff. There's some swagger shit with him too that I think is really important. There's, that team has an arrogance to it again and I mean that as in a good way. That team's got its

got its thing back. And I think he brought it back. Draymond started playing a little bit better and started carrying himself a little more. And at the combo of them, I remember the Pistons when they lost Mahorn in the expansion draft after they won the first title. Devastating. And they, well, they had that whole bad boy saying he was such a big part of that. And then he left and

And it was kind of like, oh, now it's just Lambert and Isaiah and Rodman. And then Rodman had to kind of step up and fill in that bad boy thing. But the combo of Draymond and Butler, I think, and Moody, you can see it's infected him in a good way, too. Like, he's carrying himself now.

And I just think that team has real playoff toughness. I'm really watching them now as a team. I don't think they can beat OKC necessarily, but they love playing OKC. They've had great games against them. I think they'll be happy to go toe-to-toe with them. And I think it'll be a good series. I think OKC will win. But imagine saying that six weeks ago about Golden State. They looked like they were dead. No, I think my favorite stat, too, for Steph is that he was 22 shots a game in February. Now he's 17.

And it's because it's not scoring Butler. Right. He, he doesn't want to shoot 22 times a game. Yeah. And there's some guys that will never understand not wanting to shoot 20 times a game. And he could shoot 25 if he wanted to, and he'd probably be justified, but you can just tell when they were really,

just grinding offensively it was like all right you're running this first thing right steph is cut off then it's coming around the back oh he's coming this way oh now he's coming around right so at least with butler you have to respect him even if you're not you know being as aggressive and it was funny because i was looking at his numbers against wiggins numbers and just the points per game are about the same but the you know the rebounding the assist stuff with him um

And Butler's metrics have always been really good this year because he's still getting such a ridiculous free throw rate because we've covered it. I mean, he's just going to get you once he seals you at the rim. But you're right. Like I think last night, like Moody was getting into guys defensively. I just think there's a ceiling on what they'll be able to do. I'm surprised you would think the OKC series would be competitive because what they're unveiling with this Chet Hartenstein thing.

Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it. No, it's just, I think the thing that I've noticed already with Butler, I think it's so hard to just kind of move into that Golden State system and figure out how to play with Steph the right ways. And Butler's already figured it out. He's like, oh, I got the ball in the corner, but now I see Steph floating around behind me. I'm going to screen my guy and give it back to him. Like he's already, it feels like he's played like a hundred games with them, you know? And the only reason I mentioned the OKC thing, and I think OKC is the best team in the league,

Um, I just feel like they've had, I believe in the model of we've played this team really well over the years. Cause I feel the same way about Milwaukee and Cleveland. Cleveland's better than Milwaukee.

But Milwaukee's played good games against them. I've watched some of them. Like, they're battles. They have a real issue with Giannis. I can't wait for Milwaukee's week, like, going into the night and everything. Like, I'm really excited about the Bucs for the next week, looking at their schedule. Yeah. Okay, but back to the original point, though. Are you playing the results on the Butler fit and also playing the results on the current Durant fit where there's a,

Is there still a version of Durant where, say, you know, the reason I always look at Houston is if Houston goes, okay, look, we've done a really good job here. We built probably as deep an asset chest as they're in the league, you know, maybe outside of, depending on what you think of OKC in the high end. I think everybody understands what I'm trying to say here. Options, right? Option depth. I'm like, oh, if we did this and this for this guy, like...

Could you see the Durant happiness thing is, is real. I mean, it's, I don't love the Durant Shangoon mix. I don't like them as a combo because I can't play any of their real tall guys who can protect the rim with those two. They're rolling out. I guess I can play Jabari. No, they're going like Jabari Adams Shangoon right now. I know. It's weird. And their record is kind of, they've hung around. I think we all thought they were going to dip. Booker makes way more sense to me with Houston than Durant does.

Booker is exactly what they need. That's one of those. If you just replace Jalen Green with Booker, you'd be like, holy shit. Okay. Okay. So let's go back to this. Is Booker kind of the Pierce phase for Danny Ainge, say 2005, 2007 stretch where Pierce is 28,

29. Remember, that's the only real stretch of Pierce's career with Boston where he didn't play, right? Because they were like, all right. But 06, remember, you remember this. Nobody else does. Pierce was awesome that one year when they went like 35 and 47. Pierce was incredible. He was like carrying, there was like nobody. So the question is, is he more Paul Pierce or is he more Ray Allen?

at that point of their careers. Right. So the Pierce year you're talking about is the 06 year. You're right. I mean, he's 27 a game, 27, seven and five. You know, he's taken 18 shots a game, which actually isn't even the high because he took a lot. The pace was way slower back then. Everybody was, you know,

27 a game back then was like 32 now. Yeah, but he took 20 shots a game when he was 25. But granted, that Boston team was six over 500. So that was kind of like the Jim O'Brien was like, you guys can do whatever you want. Yeah, do whatever you guys want on offense as long as you guys play defense. And so

I just know you're right. Pierce is the right comparison. You're right. Because Pierce was a little better than Ray Allen as a two way guy. So what was the point that Ainge always made? Because, you know, again, I was doing TV back then. I had a good relationship with him. I would ask him whether he was on the air with us or the times I would run into him with wall fam and just bullshit. And it was always cool that he would do it with me. And I was kind of in the mindset of like a younger guy that we always want everybody to hit the reset button.

Like two years of not going in the right direction. We're like, yep, get rid of everybody. Hit the reset button. We all do it in the media. We do it as fans constantly. Ishby did that in the interview. He talked about it. Everyone just wants to blow it up. I don't want to do that. This is why this is good because then Angel just go, I want more players like Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce is, he wouldn't swear obviously because it's Danny, but he's like, Paul Pierce is awesome. It is my job to build around Pierce. And it's basically the exact same age range that we're talking about with Booker.

So there's one crucial difference. I know what it is, but go. The Celtics had a bunch of assets and they, they had the, at least cap space coming down the road and moves to make in the last three years of that decade. And I think the difference with the sons is what are the moves? Because you can, even if you trade Durant, you got to get contracts back and

I don't even think they're allowed to take two guys back for him because they're so far over the apron. So you almost have to take one guy back or trade him to a team that could take on the cap space. You got to get assets back, but then you got to turn those assets into more booker help. You aren't able to sign anybody in free agency and you have no picks.

Like the Celtics that year, they had Al Jefferson and they had Rondo. You know, they had Gerald Green, who weirdly had value. They had Ryan Gomes. They had first round picks to trade. Like the Phoenix doesn't have any of that. I would be, if I was a Suns fan, I'd be so bummed out because I don't think there's anything worse than being unwatchable, but also having no hope for the next couple of years. And I don't see how you have hope if you're them. So if Booker tells you, you're Ishby and Booker's like, look, I get it. There's no hope.

wiggle room here and that's the biggest difference between the pierce booker comp that we're coming up with here is that there were at least outs there was stuff on the horizon and with phoenix and the new second and all of the stuff the restrictions it's far more restrictive this current situation if booker goes to you your ishby is like you know what i know this but i don't want to go anywhere what do you do you keep them at that point at least for another year and you try to make the best of rant deal you can and you fire everybody who told you you shouldn't trade for brad to be able to no trade class

I think whoever's left in the building who was like, I do it. They have to go. You just have to clear, clear the deck. Cause that's like, we did the worst contracts draft and was took Bradley Beal first. And he was right to trade for that. When you have no, to trade for a contract with no outs is the most irresponsible thing you can do as a franchise, you know, and then the MB contracts probably second. Well, I don't know what they do. And, and,

It's one of the most shocking things I can remember in recent NBA history because we thought the Phoenix was going to be good, like legit good. And they're the opposite. They're awful. We'll take a break. I have a couple more things to throw you related to this. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The beauty of the tourney, the underdogs, the chaos, the stories that make you believe, the fans. It's why we love college basketball. Right now, FanDuel turning the excitement up even higher through the first two rounds of the tournament.

Bet correctly on the lowest winning seat of the day and you'll win a share of $1 million in bonus bets. That is an upset you will not be upset about. Fando, the best place to bet on the tourney. You can bet on everything from spreads to money lines, team totals. You can bet the east-west brackets, anything you want, plus so much more. Visit Fando.com slash BS to back your dog of the day because in March, anything can happen.

Must be 21 plus president select states or 18 plus in president DC. Opt-in required. Winning pre-live money line wager on lowest seed required. Each $1 million jackpot to be split equally among all eligible winners. Bonus bets are not withdrawable. Expire seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fender.com. Gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Unplugged.

Ultra, we are getting close to the NBA playoffs, which means we are getting close to the NBA finals. One of my favorite sporting events, not just because it's really fun basketball at the highest possible level, but all the historical legacy stuff. It's my favorite. You've heard me talk about it on the podcast many times. Speaking of finals, Michelob Ultra has given me the chance to win tickets to the NBA finals, which I hope Boston is a part of.

Not only do they make a superior beer, they're also helping fans like you get closer to the game. Michelob Ultra, superior is worth playing for. Check out MichelobUltra.com slash NBA Finals to enter for a chance to win tickets. Michelob Ultra courtside NBA Finals, sweepstakes, no purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents, excluding Maryland residents. 21 and up. Ends on May 5th, 2025. See official rules.

at mcglobalture.com slash rules for price and detail message and data rates may apply void where prohibited. All right. So I mentioned the, I just don't have an answer with the Suns. I got really mad about the Austin Reeves thing over the weekend with the Spurs. And I almost did a whole tweet thing. And I was like, I think I've already tweeted about this. I went back and saw what they used their cap for that summer. It was Chetty Osmond and campaign.

And they just could have had Reeves. I don't think they ever made the story. I heard was that Reeves and his camp was waiting for an offer, waiting for an offer. And this person was like, we're going to get one or you get one or you get one. And then the Lakers smartly were like, you got to tell us by tonight, if you're doing this and the Spurs were just too late, never did it. And then after the fact, we're like, yeah, you know, we're a year away. We don't want, but, um, I was just, it made me so mad thinking two Texas teams have rebuilt the Lakers and

the Mavericks and the Spurs. The Lakers are just headed toward the cliff with old LeBron and the AD heading, hitting his mid thirties and no real ability to rebuild. And now they're going to be really good for the next 10 years. And it's because of these two dumb ass Texas teams. It makes me so mad. I would tell you that Reeves camp really appreciates you bring this up probably every six weeks. I'll do it every three weeks.

He's Reeves is legitimately good. Like could Reeves make the all-star team? I think he could not this year, but like in the next three years, could he be an all-star? Yeah, I think he could. Is he as good as like Jeff Hornacek was? I think he is like Reeves is. I want to do a third banana list with you and see where he ranks in the third bananas.

I just can't believe we were talking that whole season. Grant Williams is hurt. Remember when they offered him four for 98? That's the max you could go. That's a lot. It's like, well, that's 20 plus million a year. Anyway, they got him for what? 12, 13? Clearly, the Spurs didn't think he was... The Spurs could not have thought he was going to be this good. How? How?

I don't, that's where, you know, and the Spurs have done good stuff over the years. Like they nailed the castle pick last year. No, I mean, in recent times, they nailed the castle pick. Right. I'm just saying the Spurs track record has been pretty good. Spurs track record is good. I'm talking recently. Maybe not as good. But yeah. If you want to tell me there's some misses in there. Yeah. You got me. I think Reeves is a miss. It's a huge miss. They had the cap space. Trade him. He's an asset. Or sign him. He's an asset. The biggest thing to you is make him the offer so that LA has to match. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's one. Another one I don't have an answer for. That almost sounded like cowherd right there. Thank you. Still don't have a real answer for why the Embiid extension happened. And here's another one you and I have talked about for a while, and there's still some buck passing going on with it, and nobody's really owned it yet. I've heard various stories about it. I've gotten some intel on it. Can you share? Give me what you've heard. He means a lot to Philly.

It's the right thing to do. If his body breaks down, we'll be able to cover it with insurance anyway. It'll be a huge distraction if we don't do this. We should just do it. And odds are he's going to be healthy. Was the case. Odds are. Yeah.

Yeah, I felt like the public stuff about ownership being like, you know, weren't sure about this one. Ridiculous. I mean, these owners run these teams. They make every decision that's even 10% as important as this. They're making the decision. It's ridiculous. The number of trades they want to do. Don't like the just over the years. You're like, what happened with that? And it's like, oh, the owner. Like, what are you like? I remember how long it took me to finally just accept that.

The owners are, they don't let somebody just go, yeah, what'd you guys do today? Good news. No, it's so true. Well, and the owner can become the boogeyman sometimes when you talk to teams where if it was a draft pick that really, wow.

And the owner really pushed for that. So that's kind of, we shouldn't listen to him on that. So you never know what's real and not real. You know those. There's some of that stuff too. We know the teams. I don't want to list them because I don't want to betray anybody. But there's some teams where they use owners as a boogeyman. Because like when Gaston, before Wick and the guys had bought Celtics, which is honestly one of the greatest things that could have happened. Yeah. But Gaston would apparently just say, here's the number.

And if it's a dollar over, it's coming out of your pocket. And that was it. Like as hands off as you could possibly be as an owner. But is that awesome? Or does that actually suck that you can't go to your owner and say, hey, we have this on the table and here's...

We can work with this. If you allow us this, and then maybe next year we cut it back down here. I don't know if being that rigid, at least you kind of know where you stand and what your parameters are for a team. But specific to the Embiid thing,

And I like Josh Harris a lot, but you're not, you can't tell me like you didn't want to do it. And Daryl and the staff convinced you to do it. And Josh has been around sports. Like he's in Josh has run. He has run companies. He owns two professional sports teams that are very expensive and have a lot of employees.

He's not just passing off that decision to somebody else. This is not a defense of Daryl because I'm sure Daryl really wanted to do it too. But to make it seem like

You had to be talked into it, but deep down you knew it was a bad idea. Like, get the fuck out of here. Stop. Yeah, that one, that one I'm going to have a hard time believing because then it spins it back on a Daryl. And, you know, the difference between your relationship with Daryl and mine is pretty wide, but I think I'm always fair about it because I think he's really good. I try to be fair too. Right. It's been a rough year. It does seem like

It's one of those dumb, cultural, organizational, like we pay Paul George $200 million. We max Maxie out at his number, and he was nice enough to wait. So let's get everybody on the same financial timeline. And you're just thinking to yourself. And clearly, the announcement of it being that close to the start of the season means that they probably had already come to some kind of general agreement, maybe before the Olympics even happened.

But the way we're seeing it is like this many weeks after you saw him laboring during the Olympics and you don't even have to do this extension and you've got it under player control. Yeah, you have two more years for him anyway. Why would you be in a hurry to hand this guy that kind of money? But I think it comes back to a lot of that stuff. It's like if you're going to pay these other guys and what he means to the city and all that different stuff. I think the Embiid part that's a little curious is that I don't know that he's actually a blast day to day.

And it doesn't really get talked about a ton, which, you know, good for him. And I know there was the part of it where it kind of leaked out last year and then he was upset that he was late to stuff and that people were talking about it. Yeah. But I have a feeling like...

And it's like a lot of organizations where if you have one of these guys, when he's right, it's a top five player in the world, you do whatever he wants. But you just hope that him doing whatever he wants is in line with you trying to win as many games as you possibly can. And I'm not even really, you know,

I'm trying to be fair about this whole thing because it's not like an Embiid only situation because we always hear about this kind of stuff. But it just, it felt like there was a lot of things that probably could have told everybody involved. Like, do we want to wait on this maybe just a year? Take a year. Yeah, take a year. Here's another one I just don't have an answer for. Oh, this is a good one. Is Denver good? Ooh, now you're cooking. Are they good? Like, if they lost 4-1 in round one, would you be like, I can't believe it.

There were no signs at all. If they made the Western finals, would you be like, I can't believe they made the Western finals. I don't know. To me, they are like, I don't know what to expect. They're like one of those boxers that they could knock somebody out. They could get knocked out. It could be, or they're almost like a UFC fighter.

Like, well, I don't know what UFC fighter that would be like. Gaethje. Like Gaethje might just get fucking cold cock. Rock cold. He might, he might have an awesome fight today. I don't like, I watched a lot of the Laker game and I watched the fourth quarter of the Washington game last night. Wow. You're coming off the Wizards game last night. No, but I watched, I watched almost that entire Laker game.

when they didn't have Luca and they didn't have LeBron. And they're just hanging with Reeves and connect. That's what made me so mad about Reeves on Friday night. And Denver was trying and they were home and they needed the game. And they're barely hanging on against this like G League Laker team with Reeves. And I was just like, what the fuck?

Hey, like to me, the MV, we talked a week ago about the MVP of the Oak. It's like, it's, I, I don't know what scenario would happen for SJ not to win the MVP at this point after the week he had, but, uh, is Denver good? Um, well, let's see here. Uh, I, I thought the Washington game was more alarming. And by the way, if we're going to be critical of when he gets into games, let's be positive when he's a plus eight, Ronnie James plus eight and 16 minutes in that game. Uh,

Fair. That's the Doc Rivers rule. All right. The Doc Rivers rule full effect against that Lakers version of a team out there. Did Dalton take 30 shots in that game, by the way? Yeah. 13 to 27. He's playing hard, too.

Okay, so that one— It seemed like he got concussed at the end. Duncan's already hit his head. The Washington game was far more alarming than I think the Lakers won because I'm going with the Doc Rivers rule where I'd rather the other team have everybody so I know my guys are in. And I think that game, they went into it being like, whatever. To be up seven, I think, with four minutes to go on the Wizards where you were up, they get back into it. It's stupid. Poole has—

the most Jordan pool last few minutes of a basketball game you could ever imagine hits the game winner on a shot where it was like, just feeling 34 footer without Aaron Gordon intending to take, but coming out of the timeout, I know Gordon played in, he played in the Lakers game 31 minutes, but he didn't play in the wizards game. So I just have to have fully formed Aaron Gordon. And if you run through it, are you going to take like, if the two through five right now is a game in the West, if it's,

Minnesota, Denver. Are you picking Minnesota right now? I mean, I could change it in a week, but from what I've been watching the last month, I would take Minnesota against Denver. And I also feel like Minnesota seems like they genuinely feel like they have Denver's number for whatever reason. They'll be a really hard series for Denver.

Minnesota looked great against them the other night. I really like playing Denver. Yeah. The Denver, I think the biggest Denver issue is that when you saw them go up against OKC and then you saw them go up against Minnesota, it was just back-to-back games where you're watching Christian Brown have to defend SGA and then Ant.

And I don't know if Aaron Gordon becomes the guy because he didn't play in either of those games. Is Aaron Gordon somebody they go, hey, in a playoff series or at least the fourth quarter, like we feel like we can throw this guy at him. There's just a lot of perimeter size there with those two teams. That would be a problem for Denver. I have more issues than that. There's a lot of Westbrook. Like he's involved. And I know Gordon's been out. And when Gordon's out, there's more Westbrook. It's a lot.

And he's, I think Ben, that's been a winning signing. I'm pro the Westbrook sign. And that was great. But he's in a lot. If this is a movie, he's in a lot of scenes. They're like, oh, Westbrook's in this scene too. Oh man, he's going to be in the shootout scene.

Like he's just in it. Do you have an example? Christian Brown is, Christian Brown is like incredibly important now, as you mentioned. They have no bench whatsoever. And the thing that alarms me the most, they have some of the worst defensive possessions short of the Suns. There was a Washington play with like two minutes left. Who is that? That rookie from the Swedish kid? He made the three in the corner because everybody forgot he was in the corner. Remember that? Like a minute left. What are you talking about below?

One of those, one of those kids, I forget who made it. Miami, the Miami rookie Keyshawn George. It was key. It was George. I think it's who you're talking about.

He, he, they just forgot he was in the corner and Jordan pool. They double team. Yoko just double team pool for no reason. And then nobody's swung over and there's just a wide open guy in the corner at 10. And it was like a huge play. Um, they just have some really bad sequences. And sometimes I think Yoko just so great. He just makes up for a lot or Murray Hill at a three, but, um,

they seem really i i after the all-star break i was thinking oh man they could really do this and now i'm wavering i don't like what i'm seeing yeah i don't know where they are in fan duel right now i was looking at it this morning but they're still with this lakers dip and lebron lebron you know missing time which i don't know how fair it is to judge any of this laker stuff the last week or so yeah lebron not playing i mean it's kind of pointless right um

But Denver still kind of thought of as this fourth team. I think they were fourth in odds. Are they right now still? Second in the West for odds now, plus 600. If Golden State played Denver in a series with what you've seen right now, like put Gordon back into it and put in that Jokic has really owned Golden State over the last couple of years. Would you feel great about taking Denver in that? I think that series would be like a 50-50.

I mean, is Draymond defending Jokic, I guess, primarily? Or they're going to... Yeah, I think that would be a loony... Jackson Davis bringing that post to try to spread him. Or you bring him out hoping he can stretch. I don't know. Yeah, you might have a post in there hoping to run Jokic around. I like that you brought up the Westbrook thing because...

Everybody knows how I feel about the long form of Westbrook, but he's been really important for them. And considering the value on it and all the minutes and all the shots available and all that stuff, I also think it's the most accepting Westbrook has ever been of his role. But I see the playoff limitation stuff where I'll go, if you're going to run him out there... I thought that Lakers, not this game, the other one that we did the show after that game...

I thought the lack of spacing with the Westbrook Brown lineup and then Gordon's also somebody, even with his shooting numbers being really good this year, teams are going to cheat off of him. And it's not that you want to, you don't want to be like doubling Jokic in a predictable way where then he's burning you with guys cutting all the time. But I feel like I've noticed, and maybe it's because I look for it,

And so maybe I'm wrong with it, but there's just moments where Westbrook gets a little jumpy with Jokic late where he's actually trying to defer to him in a way that I've never really ever seen him defer to another player that he can force the ball back to him. If he misses a late three, I don't think he'll want to take the next one.

you know? And if there's a Laker series, I'm convinced the Lakers are like, he's going to want revenge on us so bad in this series that we're not even worried. Oh, what are my favorite theories? The Laker, any playoff series, he's just wide open. Like just know that going in, in the last five minutes of any playoff game, if he's out there, he's going to be left open. I'm worried about Denver. I don't like that they can't get stops when they don't need it. And I don't like how involved Westbrook is. And I don't like that they don't have a bench at all. Here's my next one for you.

They're playing Murray and Jokic 40 minutes a game in March, too. Red flag. Is Tibbs a coach that you could actually see winning four straight playoff rounds? That's my next. I don't have an answer for this. Yeah, I do. They're not going to, but I think he's one of the smartest basketball people I've ever seen. Is he one of the smartest defensive coaches you've ever seen, or is he one of the smartest coaches you've seen?

I know where you're going with this with the minutes and everything, but, um, no, I'm not going to the minutes. Actually. I'm going to the offense because it's really been interesting. And I had some Knicks fans in my life who predicted this when Brunson got hurt that they were like, if he could just come back in time for the playoffs healthy, this actually might be a good thing for us because we were too Brunson centric.

We were too predictable. Bridges was being wasted in some of these games. We weren't going to towns and some fourth quarters. We were actually going to feel like more of a team and more of an offense because all these guys are chipping in. Bridges has immediately been better. And I think the frustrating thing I've had watching the Knicks this year is just they're not using all the parts of Bridges. You give up all those picks for him and you throw him in the fucking corner and

And I don't know. I think he's really good with the ball. I think he's good at like deciding, you know, if you set him a pick 25 feet from the basket, I think he makes good decisions. He can go to the basket. He can pull up. He's a good passer. And they didn't use them at all. And they just kind of ran Brunson into the ground. That's not why he got hurt.

But I think the more you use somebody, the more the chances increase that they might get hurt. I just feel like they, in a weird way, have more balance without Brunson, but they're obviously better with Brunson. And maybe this was good for him. I don't know what Tibbs was doing the first 60 games is my point. I don't know what they were doing with Brunson without Bridges at all. I don't understand it.

Bridges is an interesting case because we felt like he was just an unbelievable fourth option and we all still had hope for Aiton, right? In Phoenix. Yeah. I mean, his shot attempts per game, seven, six and a half, nine, ten and a half. Then he peaked at 13 and a half and then he gets traded, right? In the Durant deal. And that run with Brooklyn with him, 22-23. And I brought up on my pod because I went to a game and watched him in person and I was like, damn.

like, damn, like this is this is sophisticated offense. And it was him getting wherever he wanted to initiating the possession where, you know, maybe he'd always had it, but you just, there's never ever going to be a time where you needed that from him in Phoenix, or maybe you did. I don't know. So like, yeah, I'm with you. The 33, the other night against Portland, seeing him remind me of the nets version, because the second year with the nets, the shot attempts go way down. I think he was kind of miserable. It was pretty clear. Like he wasn't,

he wasn't playing offense the way that he was playing it before. And I've pointed out the Cam Thomas part of it. Nets fans don't like hearing that from me. I don't know. I thought it was kind of obvious, but Cam ended up being, you know, really good at the start of this year. So maybe it was deserving of him. So here's my question. Do you think Tibbs,

But do you think Tibbs just messed up the Mikael Bridges thing this year? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying. And I don't really have to tell you it's different. I guess. I don't know that. Let me just say this, though. That Brunson cat thing is like the best points per possession thing. It's one of the best things in the league. Yeah. And their offense is awesome. You know, if there's anything that's been wrong with him this year, it's their defense. So my counter. Well, it's not a counter. We're not arguing.

But I feel like when you have an offense like that and you have these five guys who are all good in different ways, heart does need the ball. The other guys kind of do at least sometimes it's like you're at a concert and it's like, ah, we got to play that Keith Richards song.

Yeah, it's new. Let's just, let's just do it. And then we'll do start me up after we'll get the crowd back into it. But you got to give Keith like this five minutes. You kind of have to do that. Like I, this is one of my criticisms with the Celtics. Sometimes they forget that Derek White is really good, especially against certain matchups with the ball or like run them a pick. Like he makes good decisions. It breaks you out of the monotony of just Tatum and Brown launching threes. I think coaches forget sometimes.

that you just, when you sprinkle guys in and get them a little involved, you get more out of it later. Bridges was on autopilot in some of these Knicks games I was watching because he wasn't involved. And I think he's a really good player. And that's why they gave up five first round picks for him. And all of us were like, okay, I get it. Bridges is really good. Whatever they were getting out of him this year, I thought there were weeks and stretches that it just, at least from what I was watching, I wasn't that impressed. So

We'll see. I like it. I like it, by the way. You know, why not? I don't know how many times he was initiating his own offense. Maybe this is a Kirk Goldsberry shot chart so we can see the difference between his peak net season two years ago and then where it is, if it's all stuck in the corner with a few elbows in there. But all I know is that when I saw it live two years ago, I thought this guy can kind of like this is almost like Booker Durant type shit. Yeah. It's mid-range pull up. Yeah.

And then in the Scoot reckoning game, which unfortunately Scoot lost in that overtime Knicks winner, Bridges was doing a lot of the stuff that made me think like, oh, okay, this is a whole nother level. So yeah, I'm open to it. I guess I would have to, I'd want to see kind of the shot chart more of it. But you're probably right, right? I mean, Brunson's initiating every single thing they're doing, so I'm sure. Yeah.

Plus, like you can put Brunson on the side for some of these plays and he's a 45% three point shooter. Like you don't need to. I just think when you're in a playoff series, if you're running offense the way the Knicks run offense, I think over the course of two weeks, it gets easier and easier to at least get used to it. And the more wrinkles they have, I think they're a really interesting offensive team. And I know some of the stats are already pretty good for them. My last one. How hurt do you actually think LeBron is?

I don't know. I mean, it was a weird part of the schedule. It was going to be really tough. The time the injury happened at the end of the Celtic game and they had already lost. The stuff in the state championship game, like him jumping around on the sidelines. By the way, smart for him to rest up and get his shit together for the playoff run. But we were talking about this, or at least the media was, in these grave terms. LeBron, huh?

This might be the rest of the year. I think he's fine. And I think the Lakers have to be taken seriously and I'm not going to waver from that point. Like they showed him shooting today. I think he's fine. Would be my takeaway. Yeah. When the video started going around him at the high school game and people were checking like the depth of the thigh separation, uh,

that looks like yeah like that's a sturdy stance yeah and his groin is probably but then if he goes to the workout this morning then it all kind of makes sense it's like well yeah i felt good last night yeah i didn't realize until the state championship i thought i think he's fine i'm not worried about it um okay one thing i was thinking about with the calves and then we'll take a break i can't believe orlando one you want to talk about like a game where i'm like when's this going to be over watch the entire game i'm sure you watched a bunch of it too um

I thought it was a bad loss for Cleveland because I was excited for their streak. And I was, and I really wanted them to win because I was like, I love streaks. Once we get over 16, I'm in. You've always been a huge streak guy. I didn't, I didn't bet on them. I was just, I just love streaks. And, uh, there was some stuff in there that, that I just am filing away in the back of my head. Cause I think they're really good. I'd still think they're the favorite in the East, but there's a Hunter shot at the end of the game in the, in the corner.

Right. Not a lot of huge. I'm going to say DeAndre Hunter hasn't been a lot of huge games. The game started to feel a little big, right? The streaks on the line, they go to him. He's wide open the corner. It hits the side of the backboard. And I was like, oh, okay. Are you saying Hunter lacks seasoning? Just saying it's, it's, it's, you can go into these playoffs and be 68 and 14, but they have a bunch of guys who have never really been in these massive games. Like Mitchell has.

But really, that Mitchell dunk today. Strews has been in a couple of big games, but there's some guys that haven't. And sometimes when the series or the game isn't working out the way you think it is, and all of a sudden you're in the corner and you're like, oh shit, I got to make this. You haven't been in that spot. I don't know. I just filed it away. Do you file anything away from that game?

Well, then I was just expecting Orlando to lose because they have become unwatchable on offense. And I think it's turned into bad habit Paolo where I give him a pass, but I think he knows how screwed they are most nights. So he goes 6-22 tonight. I thought his decisions based on some of the switching matchups that he had, I was like, why are you going to that? But ultimately, Anthony Black hits two corner threes late and you get a ball game, Orlando. So, you know, this team is 32-37 now.

The offense, when they're bad, I know we've covered it before, but they shot 42% from three today. Cleveland shot 25, and it still came down in the last few seconds of the game. Right. So if you're Cleveland, you're just like, hey, we didn't hit threes. That's why we lost. Let's move on. I think it's amazing to think of these two teams going to a Game 7 first-round series last year and then...

just the rocket ship distance that Cleveland has gone from them. We can get to the injury stuff with the record and the time Paulo's missed and the time Franz has missed and that Suggs, you know, looking at the on-off stuff and how important he's been. But they still shouldn't, since they've had everybody back during the stretch, they still shouldn't be this bad offensively. So this is a team I'm frustrated with that's different. Like Phoenix, I resent the time I've spent with them. You want it back. Yeah.

We're Orlando. Yeah. I still enjoy Paolo and Franz when it's right so much. Um, but yeah, I'm not telling any, any magic fan that's watched this. I mean, you've, you've watched your team go for stretches where you're worried if they're ever going to score again in the game, that's how bad it can get. It's definitely one of the higher percentages of two seconds left on the shot clock, fall away 20 footer with the hand in your face. They've got to be in the top three.

It was tough. Yeah, it was tough having this game up with Michigan and Wisconsin, too. That game, you were like, when is there going to be a good shot? They interviewed the guard from Michigan, and he's out there just strutting. I think he was two for seven. Hey, can I ask, though, a quick clarification? Did you take something from this Cleveland loss that infected your playoff brain?

Well, I did a lot of Cleveland work this morning thinking that they were going to win this game and we would lead with the streak. Here's the one thing I can't figure out. Well, Mobley didn't play, which we should have already mentioned. I get it. Guys, teams miss stuff all the time. The question for me is, what's your thing if you're going to win the title?

Right. But I went back, I went through the last 10 years, like last year, the Celtics, what was their thing? Ultimately, if you just strip it down, you could describe it in five words. It was like Tatum and Brown are really good together. They're durable. They play well. Usually one of them is having a good game. It's a really special combo. And if we had to, and there's a bunch of other reasons, but let's start there. That's why they won the title. 23, Jokic and Murray.

Really special combo. Just that they hit a level. They were the best. And that's why they won. 22, Curry, our guy. 21, Giannis. 20, LeBron and AD. Curry and Poole. Yeah, and Poole. 19, Kawhi. Just went to a great level and they had a really fun team and he was the center force. Did this take a lot of time to research this? I hope not. Did not. Did not take a lot of time at all. Curry, KD, and Klay for two years. LeBron and Kyrie. Curry and Klay. That's the last 10 years.

The question for me was, I think about could Cleveland win the title? How do we talk about it after? Be like, what was their thing? And I think it would have to be the guards. I think we would have to say, like, you could mention all the other thing, but you say, man, their guards were fucking awesome. That's why they won the title. I don't really know what else it would be other than like them shooting 50% from three for the last two rounds, something like that. So I'm just trying to compare them. The last team that you really left the season going, man,

I can't believe they got to that level was the 14 Spurs. Right. And they had you going back. They had really good players, but they just like they meshed and they were awesome. And it made sense. And they were so mad about the year before. And they, yeah. And they were driven. They had the hunger. So with Cleveland, I think it would be the guards. Unless what do you think would be something different? If we're talking about them in July? Oh yeah. Cleveland, of course they won. They had this, this, this, like what would be the first thing?

Well, if I have to come up with something else, um, you know, I don't think Mobley is going to be somebody that you're running late possessions for and having everybody like space off of him. Even though his passing is really good, but it might just be an adaptability, which is the same thing with OKC. Like you're pretty sure, you know, what boss is going to run out there based on every matchup. They're probably going to run the same thing.

With OKC and Cleveland, I think the fun part is knowing that they can mix and match a little bit. And when he closed with that Cleveland lineup, he went Hunter, Mobley, and the two guards. Which was, I liked it.

I love it. I know it's kind of funny. I'll never forget when Golden State beat Dirk and that Dallas team in the first round, right? We believe. Yeah. And everybody on TV was killing the Mavs for adjusting. It's like, you're the one seed. You're supposed to make them adjust to you. And I always thought it was like the dumbest thing. I thought it was like so stubborn. So what are you supposed to do? Just get annihilated every quarter? Yeah. We're the one seed. We're not subbing.

Bad matchups out. We built this record through six months of hard work and stubbornness. So, you know, I know what you're saying. Could you see this all time? Do they compliment each other enough through four rounds? I just love that team. And I, I don't like the default.

Well, the Celtics have been through the wars and Cleveland hasn't. So that's why Cleveland can't beat them. I don't, I don't see it that way. We'll see how I feel when they're playing each other. You know, I certainly could change my mind on this, but I just feel like league wide, it's the most open mindedness I've had about those three teams. Yeah, I would say I'm still shaded toward Cleveland in that matchup.

Because of the hunger piece. So you have Boston third out of the TGI hierarchy. Yeah, if my life depended on it, I would pick Cleveland. But I don't feel great about it. But I think they're a safer bet. Like I was going through some of the stats with them. And, you know, first of all, they're 56 and 11, which is nuts. Like they still have a chance to get to 69. But they're first in offense. They're shooting 39% from three.

They have nobody over 31.3 minutes a game, which is incredible. They've been really fanatical about keeping everybody fresh for the playoffs, which I think is really going to help them. Hunter's at 51% from three for them. But heading into today, Struis is 42 and Jerome was 44. So their role guys are showing up. They have nine guys, man, that I really like. Yeah. That I understand what all nine guys are supposed to do. And then two 15-game winning streaks in the same season. Fifth time it ever happened.

It's not a, it doesn't mean you're going to win the title, but the 71 bucks and the 2000 Lakers did it. 97 jazz did it. They made the finals. Oh, seven sons did it. That was the Robert horror year. They were the second best team in the league that year. And then you look at some of the historical stuff with like teams that won 68 games, four titles, two failures, uh,

67 wins, nine titles, four failures, 66 wins, 12 titles, five failures. The odds are like if they win 66, 67, 68 games, the odds are they're gonna make the finals. We talked about this last year with the Celtics. Like you can pick them apart, say they shoot too many threes. The math is saying they're going to make the finals and they're gonna beat Dallas. And you can either trust the math or not.

With Cleveland, there's a lot of math in their favor if they can finish the season strong. But they have a tough schedule. They still have like eight road games left. So they might drop. They might end up in the mid 60s. I personally think, Rosillo, OKC to me makes much more sense of us talking about them in July and be like, holy shit.

SGA, nobody could guard them all year. That team could go big. They could go small. They were deep. They were incredible defensively. The coach is great. They had home court the whole time. It makes sense to me why they won the title. Cleveland, I'm having a tougher time envisioning it. Yeah, because there's no Boston in the West, which is why the FanDuel odds. I think it's still plus 185, plus 185, Boston, OKC. And then since we talked about Cleveland the first time a couple weeks ago, it's gone from plus 700 to plus 500. That's simply because there's just another team.

And as we keep talking about this West, like good luck figuring out how those standards are going to go. And I think it was great to bring up some of the Denver thing. Cause I would imagine that people are going to start getting on that a little bit more where there's just default of Yoke. He'll figure it out. And it's like, man, but you know, again, I don't know that it's ever fair to really judge them unless you get like a nice runway of Aaron Gordon games. Cause I think he's just incredibly important. He might be, well, I can't say he's the second most important guy because of Jamal, but he's definitely the third most important player on a team here that you still have expectations for. But,

But couldn't you look at the history, too, on some of the point differential stuff, the defensive differential stuff? Yeah. OKC and actually Cleveland have these similar profiles where – because I did the Cleveland thing a couple weeks ago when I did that disastrous 15 teams in 45 minutes with the East. It was supposed to be 15. But I just kept trying to find something on offense that Cleveland was bad at statistically. Yeah.

Like, hey, catch and shoot this. Pick and roll ball handler this. Pick and roll roll man this. Spot all these. Every single number. Like, the only one I found was like 15th in the NBA out of all the different things you could sort and try to figure out what it was because everything else was like first or second. They're just that good. But it's also happening on the point differential thing. When you look at that, it comes up. Speaking of the Boston number that you're talking about last year, it's like, hey, these teams –

When they have this, they all win a title and we have two kind of at the same time, right? Right. And then you have a Celtics team that I think has been really careful about the regular season because the last season.

And one of the things I think that's been so great, I love the Tatum season. Like just A plus, positive reviews, five stars. I'm going to, I'll do the tit, like whatever. This would be a wine bottle season potentially. Might be, could be. Could be breaking out the Cabernet for him. The Tatum, 25 Tatum Cabernet. They've done five times this year.

Where they're just like, Jason, we're just going to play a bunch of those. Like, Bailey Shireman's going to play today. Is that cool? You think he'll give us like 35 minutes? Just the two of your teammates at all times are going to be guys who are usually in the G League. But we're going to try to beat Brooklyn anyway. Are you cool? We'll just run. Just don't get hurt, but also play really hard. And he's just...

He does everything. I think his defense has been great. Like, and Giannis has really come on too. And I think that's a good argument, Giannis or Tatum for the number three for MVP. But the top four that we have this year, I think has been pretty awesome. And then Mitchell, I think is a good fifth choice too. Yeah. They had a play, what, Przingis 32 minutes last night as they held off that

late Brooklyn rally. And I want to watch that game because I was really into the schedule last night just because the, you know, not just because the Sunday pod, there was just a lot of different stuff. I want to see what it was like coming back. And then they ended up having to leave them out there for a good chunk of it. But yeah, I mean, I can totally see a version of this too, as much as I love Cleveland. And I think it's kind of surprising that both of us kind of leaning towards, we feel like we pick them right now against Boston, that the, the funny, like,

And I still don't know what I'm actually going to think when they're facing each other, right? How they're going to look through the first couple rounds of playoffs. Like, I can totally see myself changing my mind on it. I just don't know how you watch Cleveland these last couple months and be like, no, I'll pick somebody else. Right. But I think I know what'll happen. It'll be...

Hey, the guards still got stuck between, you know, whatever version of Drew you're going to see. You hope that's a bit ramped up in the playoffs or it would be by then. He'd just be better because I think it's kind of hit or miss right now. Yeah. But it's...

Hey, look, those four perimeter guys out there with a spacing big that took away whatever big they wanted to keep out there or the times where Tatum gets on Allen and he's actually beating Allen off the dribble. It's like, hey, you know, cool DeAndre Hunter trade, but they still got caught up in way too many mismatches on the perimeter. And those guys were just too small. It was it was there were too many times where it was Garland and Mitchell having to go up against DeAndre.

these other dudes with the ball in their hands, which is why I would have never, ever picked him. And I think that maybe I'm overrating the hunter part of it, but that would be what it is. You're not, you're properly rating it. So there's another piece that I can't shake is the hunger piece of it. The Celtics having already won and Cleveland never winning. There was John Krasinski who, who writes for the athletic covers Timberwolves different one.

But he read, he led a thing. He wrote about Minnesota and Denver this week. John's awesome, by the way. So I should have made that. He's, he's one of my favorites. No, no, we both like him. This was his first two paragraphs. Um, he said long after the Timberwolves had vanquished the defending champion, Denver Nuggets on their home floor in game seven, the Western conference semifinals last season, a Nuggets official emerged from the locker room and started walking down the hallway of the parking lot. They remind me a lot of us last year. He said, shaking his head. They just wanted it so damn bad. We couldn't match it.

I think that's like the number one thing to think about when we go in the playoffs. I think OKC and Cleveland are going to be maniacs because they've never won. You know, and if you're the Celtics, you won last year. There's this extra gear you have to have when you're going back to back. You have to be able to match

whatever that other team is bringing, that's like all I want. Like, it's like the Eagles chief Superbowl, same thing. The Eagles just wanted it more than the chiefs. Now they were better. There are all these other reasons, but ultimately that was a way bigger game for them because the chiefs had already won. And I just keep thinking about that with these playoffs. I was thinking about it Wednesday night, watching OKC play the Celtics and the Celtics kept trying to match the intensity of the game. And OKC just was like hungrier. I think SGA is like, he's fucking on a mission. Have you seen that guy play a bad game?

Does that guy ever suck anymore? He's unbelievable. I know that you can go back to the Knicks series stuff or some times where I think it's being a little too critical. You're trying to have me come up with an answer. I can point to a series a couple years ago. But, I mean, this dude's played in 54 playoff games. He's never played in more than 11. And that was actually that first year when they beat...

I think that first year they beat the Oklahoma City Thunder in the first round. They lost to the Rockets the second round. Who are you talking about?

Mitchell. He's played 54 playoff games. The guy averaged 28 a game in the playoffs. I mean, he averaged 36 a game the third year he was with Utah in the playoffs when they had that awesome Phoenix series. We both think he could be the best guy in a title team. Denver. I always say Phoenix. Yeah, it was the Denver series. Yeah, I think I don't have anything negative to say. I don't have anything negative to say about any of those teams. I don't know how... I have no idea of sitting here not being around either team's day-to-day of understanding the...

pride of the champ versus the hunger of the challenger. I don't know how anybody could come up with it. I think it's really hard to win back to back. That's my biggest fear with the Celts.

That's why I picked OKC in the summer. Yeah. Let's take one more break. This episode is brought to you by Hookah. I've got to talk to you guys about the Bondi 9, the new daily trainer from Hookah. The Bondi 9 delivers peak plushness for everyday miles overhauled from top to bottom. They've increased the stack height and added a new premium foam midsole to deliver that soft, resilient ride that's become synonymous with the Bondi. And look, I walk a lot. I walk all around LA. You need good shoes for that.

These are perfect. Everybody, Bondi. Visit hookah.com, H-O-K-A.com to learn more about the Bondi 9. This episode is brought to you by Vrbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Vrbo, you always get the whole house so you and your fellow fans can cheer on your team in peace. What's worse than watching a game with somebody who's not rooting for the same team you're rooting for? Nothing. But that's why if you book a vacation house with Vrbo, you know all the people in your house.

They'll be friends. They'll be family. Ideally, they'll be the ones who also root for my teams. Plan a winning vacation. Make it a Verbo. I mentioned that I wanted to do this. And then I remembered about 40 minutes after I said we're going to do it. Best third guy in the league. Should this be an award? It'd make more sense than the clutch guy award. So I'll just give you by record in descending order. Best third guys. Darius Garland, Chet Holmgren,

Derek White, Van Vliet, Desmond Bain, Austin Reeves, Aaron Gordon, Draymond, Pick a Nick, Brooke Lopez, Nas Reed, Zubach, Miles Turner. Who is the best third guy in the league? Because I think you can make a real case it's Holmgren. I can't believe how good Holmgren is. If he's healthy, I can't believe how good he is. Yeah. I think I'd have to see. I'm with you, but I think you'd have to see just maybe two straight months of it. Fair. Yeah.

Fair. Ron Holland is not on this. Let me add him. Just put him on there. Great. Did he get in a fight in the last four days? Did he have to be separated from anybody? No, but that whole Pistons thing last night, it kind of started with him. Yeah. Which I know no one's going to believe me on. Do you want to do two minutes on the Pistons? Please. Nothing would make me happier. I was so excited to watch that game last night, OKC in Detroit. And Cade was struggling a bit.

And it's okay. Cade had a rough game until he got kicked out. It wasn't great for him. And so there was a play where Dort was going to set a screen and Holland embellished it. And Holland got the call. He got the foul on Dort. Yeah. So now you're like, Dort's going to be looking for it. Yeah. So not that far after. There was also a play earlier where it looked like Jalen Williams and Isaiah Stewart went to kill each other in the paint with just elbow box out shit.

So that, so like whenever I see an Isaiah Stewart altercation, I rewind four possessions to try to find what's happened. He's like lamb beer. Yeah. It's the seeds to the altercation. Yeah. Anybody that's ever watched hoops, like you just know like, okay, wait a minute. Like if I'm late on a game, I'm like something else already happened. Yeah. Let me go back and check this. Although Plumlee and Adams had a good one the other night. Well,

When the funny thing is, is Adams is in the middle of an assault with a seven footer and he's smiling the whole time. So I can't tell what's scarier that Plumlee like wanted to go and his forehead was bleeding or that Adams was completely unfazed and is laughing about it. Two seconds later, that might be more horrifying.

I don't think he gets enough credit in the scariest guys of the century ranking, Stephen Adams. Because what did he have, like 17 brothers and sisters? He was clearly in 7 million fights. He's from New Zealand. I don't feel like there's any NBA altercation on a basketball court that he would even like

break a drop of sweat to be involved in. Like he could have been in there test melee smiling as people were climbing over the roads. But remember how mad I got at him during that OKC Houston playoff series? And that had a lot to do with Chris Paul going up against Harden. And I was so upset that P.J. Tucker's playing center. And I'm like, how can Steven Adams not? And I was like, I'm questioning his toughness. And it was like the lead on the six o'clock news in Auckland. So I remember that.

The New Zealand people, because they're mostly with us, but they, it'll be a new story right now in New Zealand that we're even talking about them. They love all Steven Adams conversations. Right. I was like, how can he be the scariest guy? And then when he gets an offensive rebound, he can't just turn around from two feet out with a six foot seven center behind him. So is there,

Part of that going to the equation. Probably not on the... Like, he might be so good at altercations, the physical part of it, that it bores him, and that's why he was laughing. Although, again, it's still another seven-footer and an athletic guy in Plumlee. But anyway, back to this. So, Stewart and Jalen Williams, too, have a thing. Holland sells the call. Dort then gets him right back...

where he embellishes it, then he gets the call. Then you have the groin thing where he actually stepped on SGA's ankle. So at this point, Bickerstaff is really mad about the Holland thing, whereas any coach or any competitor, he's completely ignoring that his guy got one just a couple possessions ago. Then they review it because Stewart actually threw Jalen Williams 2 out of the way on a box out, but then they didn't care about it.

that it wasn't a hostile act. And then obviously the Dort part wasn't a hostile act. And Bickerstaff was upset about the Holland part of that call. He was also upset because he said all this in the presser. I could watch it. I could see like him just, he was getting to a point. But you know what he was really, he was also getting to a point where he was only seeing the shit that was happening to his team, which is the most human nature thing ever. I don't know why Chad, or excuse me, I don't know why Chad got thrown out.

I was watching Cade. Chad is not. Or Chad. I don't know why any of those three guys got thrown out. I don't know why Cade got thrown out. I watched it.

it seemed like he got his technical and then kind of wouldn't let it go. But I don't know what he was like. Clearly it was enough that the rest were over it. And at that point, I think another thing I've spent too long on this SGA is so incredibly frustrating. And yes, there's that layer of bullshit with him. That's not as bad as the other guys, all bullshit, all NBA for he's not, he may be second team, but,

It just gets so frustrating that it's this boiling point. And Bickerstaff is just like, basically, I'm going to stick up for my guys here tonight. But I thought he was also ignoring some of the stuff that was going their way, too. No? No, I have a couple thoughts. I think when you're throwing out somebody out of a game, you have to factor in what their reputation is day-to-day, week-to-week as a player.

And Cade's not a guy who gets technicals, gets thrown out of games. Like, yeah, you're right. You can't throw him out. Just like I don't think they would throw LeBron out in that situation. Like, there's just certain guys you got to. Whereas, like, if it was Draymond, I get it. Yeah, but Draymond actually doesn't get thrown out. Like, if Draymond was doing what Cade was doing last night. I don't know why the hell I call him Chad. It's going to bug me for the rest of the night. Draymond doesn't get thrown out.

Like he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Just like Cade. I thought that was an awesome game. You're in Detroit. You've got a great crowd. It was a good battle. Like I just, I'm not throwing guys out of that game if I don't have to. It was a bad job by the refs. I thought Bickerstaff should have been mad, but I think you're right. I think you hit on something with the SGA thing. He is like trying to wrestle a fucking shark in a boat. Like he did a couple moves last night.

There was there. Well, first of all, it seemed like he might have shoved off, but the guy went like 10 feet backwards. But he had another move where he dusted somebody on that yo-yo move he does and then just went right in the lane. And there was a center waiting for him. And he went into the guy, held it, whipped it left handed. It went in. He's doing shit night to night now. That's at the highest possible offensive level that I've seen from a guard. And it's night after night after night now. He had two moves last night where I was surprised that he did him.

Because he had this spin dribble back into the paint where he was still totally in control. And that was always the first thing with him, just watching. It wasn't that he was Westbrook.

like bounce. It wasn't that it was the D Rose change of direction with him. It's just that he's this figure skater out in the court. Perky jerky shit. Just attached to him. Full speed stop. Yeah. Stop. Come backwards. He had two moves that I don't remember seeing him have before. And so you factor in all that. Go ahead. Is he the number one guy that when they talk about breaking ankles?

If somebody actually broke their ankles defending somebody, he would be like a minus 800 favorite on Fanville to be the ankle breaker guy. Guys, guys fly backwards. Guys try to stop. He just like completely embarrasses and he's embarrassing good defenders.

Like pick a guard in the league. Like he's, he does that yo-yo thing and it just works. I think he's peak of his powers right now. I know bigger staff also pointed to, you know, how mad he was that they didn't review. And it was like a respect thing. Like, Hey, they're disrespecting us. And I get where he's coming from, but I mean, Detroit also fouls, I think the fifth highest rate of any team in the league this year. And there were possessions at the end with Thompson getting in the mix and

And Schroeder getting in the mix where I couldn't believe they actually weren't calling fouls. Like I'll watch some guys with SGA 30 feet away from the hoop. And, you know, Thompson comes in and you're like, why are you sticking your arms inside of his like, he's just going to, he's just going to get you. I mean, shit, if he was doing that to Dame, Dame would have just pulled up and then got pissed at the ref being like, you didn't think I was really trying to shoot from 38 feet. I think you would have, I think you're, if you were a head coach,

I think you would have been a great every once in a while, press conference, killing the ref, sticking up for your guys guy. Wouldn't happen often, maybe twice a year. But I think I could have totally seen you doing the press conference last night. Like JB did bang the table at the end storm out. I feel like he could have done it. I would have been more like the quiet sarcastic. I can't believe you threw me out for that. Just cause I made 14 barbs in a row under my breath. You would have done like a Stan Van Gundy routine. But like, what did,

I'm getting thrown out for that just because I called you a dumb motherfucker under my breath 10 times as you ran by and then you finally got mad and threw me out. What? What did I do? That would have been my move.

When we had Ty Jerome on, I was talking about him getting calls, right? Yeah. And we started talking about like the working of the officials and everything. And he just basically said what you would expect of anybody when they're out there is they kind of lose their minds. It's like being a high school kid in the woods and the cops show up and they're like, what are you doing? And you go, nothing. You know, like as if the cops like, oh, okay, we'll leave then, you know, and I

Your first thing when you watch these guys spaz out about the calls and, you know, look, I don't really love it, but I also kind of just have to accept what it is. And Ty was just going, dude, I can't help myself sometimes. He's like, I can't help myself. Like he's like, I'll bitch and I'll complain. He goes, and then I'll see it. I'll feel bad. But like in that moment, I don't even realize what I'm doing. Yeah. And I, I just don't know. Like if I were a coach,

It was kind of funny too, because we had Will Hardy on. I was like, did you have a moment where you were like, hey, I'm a head coach. Like I get to, I should argue one of these calls soon. Because some of these guys can't stop. They can't. There's nothing that's not their possession. There's never a moment like they cannot,

Like whatever it is, that competitive moment when you're in there. So I would, I would think it'd be such a waste of energy to just keep working the officials the entire time, but I don't think they can do it. Like I'll, I'll give you one other example. The second time UConn played St. John's this year, Danny Hurley, who's, you know, just a maniac the entire game. Yeah. There was some kind of tie up and I think it was a possession, but it was possession UConn.

And they were going to inbound it from the side. And he argued that they were inbounding it from the wrong spot, but that would have meant his team was inbounding on their own end at the baseline, which is a way harder imbalance. Like you would never prefer to be inbounding it from the baseline corner. It's just a harder place to inbound it. And yet Danny was hurt. He couldn't pass up the argument. He was right.

So I don't know if I have this right, but I want to ask him, were you so incensed in that moment that they were wrong that you actually argued something that was wrong?

like a negative for you guys on the inbounds. And that's what I think we watch. We watch these guys and they only see when it's happening to them. They think they're getting screwed for two and a half hours. And I like to try to accept the human nature part of it. But sometimes you're just like, dude, you're not paying any attention to the stuff that's actually going your way. But against SGA, no one ever gets done with one of those games because he is pushing off. He is grabbing with the arms. Again, I don't think it's as bad as like the first round draft picks the guys that bullshit their way through a game.

who, you know, like there's certain players, if everybody played that way, the ratings would be zero. But I don't know that anybody, I don't think a coach can actually watch a game and go, you know, we've gotten a few calls here tonight. I don't think they can do it.

I was trying to think of, as you were talking, I was trying to think of like that coach referee relationship or player referee relationship. And it's the thing I think as both you and I got to know people in the league better and just get under the hood a little bit. And it's so fascinating which guys hate other guys. And just certain coaches have certain refs that they just detest. And the ref knows they're detested.

And then it's like, oh, Tuesday night, we got this guy. Fucking, fucking hate this guy. You know, and this is a huge part of the league or, you know, it came out a little bit with the Chris Paul, Scott Foster stuff, but every player has one or two people that they just see and like, ah, this fucking guy. And I wonder like, okay, see part of their magic. SGA doesn't talk any shit at all. Right. He just does his job, keeps his head down. Dagnall, I think argues with the refs, probably the least of any coach.

I don't know if I'd say the Leafs. When he gets hot, though, he can get really hot. But it's only a handful of times. Missoula will get after it every once in a while. And especially if you've sat close to the Celtic game, he's doing a lot of stealth. Like he's riding refs left and right. You can't. Some of the better coaches are really good at not having it seem like on TV, like they're riding the guys because that's what that refs ate.

They don't want to be, they don't want to be embarrassed. They don't want to look like they're taking shit. So sometimes you'll see like, Kerr's really good at it. He'll walk over to a ref and it'll seem like he's talking to the guy and I'm really conciliatory, right? But he learned this from Popovich. He'll come over and be like, hey,

you realize you fucking suck, right? Like that was the worst fucking call ever. The smile on your face. And it does, it seems like they're just talking, but he's like laying into the guy, but he also can become unhinged. Like Kerr will have an unhinged moment where you're like, he's a former player. The former players, Reddick does this now too. Reddick will just lose it every once in a while. Reddick. And with him, you're like, are you going to cry? Cause he gets so incredibly intense, which is not surprising because, you know, Reddick was the kind of guy in first take when it,

when it started going in a direction he didn't want, he wasn't, he wasn't going to be like, Hey, let's just all have fun. We're on TV. He's like, you're a fucking moron. You shouldn't be on TV. You're like, let's go to commercial. Fuck you. Uh, no, that's a good question. Cause like doc, I remember you can ask him about this next time you have him on.

Well, Bill Kennedy was the guy that he, him and Bill Kennedy, like they literally hated each other. Okay. But the thing was with doc and he would admit it. Like I asked him once, I was like, do you, do you ever think about like how much you work the refs? He's like, I complain too much. He's like, I complain way too much. And it's from the initial tip.

It's just on. And when those Clippers teams had Chris Paul, Blake, DeAndre Jordan, and then Austin Rivers was like, fuck it, I'm in the mix. Those guys just hammered refs the entire time. But if you're the ref, you're reffing the Clippers and you're like, fuck. Exactly. I hate these guys. That's where I'm like...

I understand the working the refs, like you can't just be quiet the whole time. But I think there's this element of like you've expended so much energy into this. And now every one of your players is thinking about the refs because our guy, our head coach, all he's doing is thinking about the refs. And there's a point of absolute diminishing returns where it just may come back to like the guy cannot help himself. There's too many guys that can't help themselves. I would think the best way to go about it is to like lay out.

to be really pick your spot. Stevens used to do that. Stevens was always the most mellow and just had that kind of calm demeanor. But you know another thing they, so Tatum, I think Tatum's one of the, like Tatum is just a great guy. He's a good role model. Tatum's approval rating right now has never been, it's crazy. He's just a good guy. But Tatum does like three, four terrible, stupid things with refs that he can't stop doing. He does the wave thing

You do that, you don't get the call on your way back and you do the fuck you wave. That's a technical. You're just getting a technical for that. Yeah. It's not even like you might as well go toward them and like shake your fist or something. But he does this passive aggressive stuff, which I think they hate even more. Like, fuck you, I'm teeing you up for that. Fuck you. How dare you wave at me? But the best one I ever saw going to games over the years was dealing with the refs was Jordan. But I think there was so much star power with Jordan.

I almost feel like this helps the goat case. If you're talking goats, the way the refs were just in his pocket. And I'm not talking about him getting calls. I'm talking about like they're in the dead spots when people are shooting free throws before the game. These guys treated him like, you know, it was like Beyonce walking on stage and they were like in the Bayhive, you know, they just, it was especially the last three years after he came back.

He just had a command of the fans, the refs, the room. He got every call he wanted. If he was upset at a call, he could say whatever he wanted. If he was yelling at a ref, the ref was like kind of bummed out. It's like, oh, Michael Jordan doesn't like, doesn't like how I'm reffing today. Like you can actually see them. Like they would just kind of lose it.

He was the best. Kobe had a little of that in the second part of the Kobe too. That was another one who had it. Richard Jefferson had that story that he had on the broadcast. And by the way, shout out to Richard. I think he's been really fun on the ESPN call, but he had this story where Kobe was going up and then everybody was complaining and they were like, he was passing. He wasn't shooting. It should be side out. It shouldn't be free throws. And Kobe was like, I haven't passed all night.

Right. And it was like, it was over. That's it. That's done. Yeah. He's a good one. Uh, second best third banana. That was a good tangent for us. Chet Holmgren one. Would you have Derek white to Garland Bain Reeves? Who's your third banana?

How crazy is this? You want to just, you know what? The other part of this is this. These are the names that we have. When you talk about the, uh, the, the league and the lack of the big three stuff that we were always so used to there for a while. Right. Bridges is in there. Draymond. Nas has been playing great. I don't know. Paul George these days. Still in the mix. Yeah. The league is deep, but I'm just saying like, I think for this to be the group, uh,

Is Mobley, so Mobley's two to Mitchell, so that means Garland's three? Then I think it's Garland. Garland's three. So Garland number two. So you go Holmgren one, Garland two, or Garland one, Holmgren two? I'd say Garland ahead of Chet just because he's done it all season long. Garland one, Holmgren two, Derek White three. Would you rather have Mikael Bridges or Derek White? I'd rather have Derek White. Suggs doesn't count? No, he's out for the year.

Bain? Grady Dick? Reeves is in the mix. Reeves is definitely in the mix. That's the whole point of this exercise. Had him right there too. Had him seven. And then Nas, the way Nas is playing was the other one. Dude, I don't know. I might put Jaden over him now. I'm loving what I'm seeing from Jaden lately. All NBA watch. I think Jokic, Tatum, Giannis, SGA, Mitchell at the top is in pen at this point. Second team...

So there's four guards for second team and third team. Edwards, Curry, Brunson, Cade. Brunson looks like he's going to be out for at least a couple more weeks. He's at 61 games right now. Yeah, the news today was one to two more weeks to see where we're at. So that doesn't sound good. I think there's a real Curry case if they can move into, if they can become a top four seed. I think there's a Curry case. I would have had Brunson and Edwards or Brunson and Cade if it was just two cards. But I think Curry's now in the mix. I don't know how it plays out. I'm not willing to commit.

And then I think Shangoon, with the fact that Houston hasn't gone away, if you look at his stats, if you look at the on-off stuff with him, if you watch the games and see how important he is in the fourth quarters for them, I think there's a Shangoon case now if you want to pick a center for third team, if you want to put Jaron Jackson and Towns second team together and save a spot for Shangoon. I just think he's in the mix now. So is Dame, the way Dame's playing?

Harden, obviously. I think Jalen Brown just because of the Celtics. Garland. I don't know. Third team is still in progress, I will say.

Yeah, not that much has changed me from last week to this week. But, I mean, are you going to end up going Shingun if Houston's a two seed, but it's only separated by like a couple games? That's where I think you guys lose your mind on the seeding stuff. Because, like, at any point, have you thought Shingun's one of the 15 best players in the NBA this year? I guess your answer is no, because it's no for me. Yeah.

And he's been nice and they're putting together a winning streak and all that kind of stuff. He had probably one of the best passes, maybe the single best pass of the season. But again, that's not enough to make all NBA. But I think sometimes you guys, when you really, really start emphasizing the seeding stuff. You guysing me? Yeah, I am. I'm you guysing you. Because I hear it all the time with the SGA Jokic stuff, which I would imagine Thunder fans weren't arguing for Harden to win MVP when they were a three seed and OKC was a six seed when Westbrook won it in 17. So, yeah.

The Thunder fans that are arguing strictly the standings being the tiebreaker between SGA and Jokic. Like, I don't know, man. I think a lot of times you're going to put Shingun on an all NBA, even if they're two games ahead of the fifth seed. First of all, I don't appreciate being you guys. I did. I don't do it to you often. Second of all, as you know, I'm a traditionalist and I want to center on my third team.

And there's, if Jaron Jackson and Towns make second team, I have a center spot for the third team. So at that point, I don't know who the other options are for center. I mean, it's Wemby's spot. Wemby went out. It's not my fault. It's not you guys' fault. That's not your fault. You're right. That part I'll concede. The thing for me is, I think ultimately when we finally get to game 82,

I might have trouble putting Towns second team on NBA with some of the defense stuff I've watched. I've been watching it more carefully. I might not be able to get there with him as a second team on NBA guy. There's some just, I mean, Jokic has them too. Jokic has some bad defensive possessions too. There's some just God awful Towns defensive possessions. So I'm factoring that in as well. He's either second or third team. He's going to make one of my three teams.

Yeah, but are you going to have Shingun, if you're a traditionalist, are you going to put Shingun second team all NBA? No, I'm saying moving Towns from second. I think Jaron Jackson's looking like he's going to be second team. He'd be a lot for me. Yeah. So the question is whether Towns can sneak in there or not. Ideally, Towns goes to third team. I might do three guards for second team too. I don't know. We could talk about this. Yeah, but the Jaron Jackson part of it. He's in. He's a forward.

Yeah, but he, I mean, you can sneak him as a pseudo center. You're a revolutionary. He's a pseudo center. Who else do they have at center other than the 80? Jay Huff, Brandon Clark. He's basically a center. He's no less of a center than like Bam out of Iowa is. Yeah, but Bam was legitimately stuck playing center the whole time until this wear thing came along this year.

Um, a couple other things I care about before we go. And I do want to give you the floor for college hoops. So you can give us five minutes to tell us what to look for. If you don't really care, uh, the Philly Brooklyn, Toronto comedy of the five, six, seven spots in the draft are just all time. Hilarious. Quentin Green, Quentin Grimes goes on a heater today. I didn't watch one minute of it. Um, and, and Philly beats Dallas. And now, uh,

It's just somebody's going to get fucked and somebody's going to get bounced backwards and wonder why they had the season they had to not even get a top seven pick. So Brooklyn is 22 wins. Philly is 23. Toronto is 24. I have no idea why Toronto is trying to compete in these games.

Philly doesn't want to compete, but win anyway. And then Brooklyn's whole season has been designed for them not to be good. And they just keep foiling themselves. Who's going to get the five spot out of these teams, Priscilla? Brooklyn, Philly, or Toronto? Toronto, I believe, maybe they're second again. But the last time I sent it to you, because you and I are invested in the under, because they're

insanely irrational fan base like lost their minds because we all took the under. Yeah. And at one point there, it was a complete lock because I looked at it was like they're going to have to go 500 over their last 20 to go over. And so, I mean, at one point, I think they were eight and 31. Yeah. You know, there was no point that I go like, hey, this and granted they've been hurt, but like even if they were healthy, the problem is they play like

I think when you have these guys that are on NBA life support, they're playing their asses off. I watched that Philly game the other night where Roden had 20-something. And you've got to go back through and be like, where the hell did this guy come from or whatever? It's like JT Thor in Game 82 just going nuts. I think they have the third best record against the spread in the NBA this year. So Toronto's been unbelievable. And Phoenix is last.

I'm pretty sure that's true. I think Phoenix is 20 games under 500 with the spread this year, which is almost impossible. Well, Philly, Philly's win today really hurt them because being at six, all they have to do is get jumped by one team and they lose their pick and just OKC winning the title and then getting the seventh pick in the draft would be nuts.

A couple other things. We're in a Houston, Memphis, Denver, two, three, four, basically a tie right now. By the way, can we, has anyone ever discussed why Dallas took on 30 million and guaranteed money with Caleb Martin and moved out Grimes? Well, now I guess it's because they couldn't come up with a contract extension, but he was still restricted. So you could have just matched it, but that one doesn't make a ton of sense. At that point. Well, Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt yet, right? Davis hadn't gotten hurt yet either.

And they had traded for Christie. And that trade looks awful now. I always like Grimes, Houston, Memphis, Denver altogether. So that's the two, three, four, and then Lakers, golden state, Minnesota, all separated by one win basically, or two, I guess the Lakers had the upper hand on that. Um, and then in the East, the East is pretty boring. It's basically Milwaukee, Indy, Detroit, just kind of fighting it out for four, five, six. And I'm not sure it really matters.

I went through and did the last 15. You know, I always like to look at offense and defense and do it every few days. And I did it this morning again. And when you go through the offenses and what's happening here in the East the last month, the West has 13 of the top 19 offenses in the NBA in the last month.

So then you just start going through all these other teams. You're like, oh my God, these teams are falling apart. Except for Toronto, who's just doing it with defense. This team's been playing like really good defense and pulling out all these games. Well, did you see the Celtics schedule the last month? It's like a cakewalk. Probably not as contentedly as you did. No, I just looked at it to see what good games are left. And it's like, it's just a bunch of shit games. Even like their West Coast,

They have one more road trip, and even that one, there's only two tough ones left. And they know that they're locked in the number two seed. So it's going to be, you know, it's going to be night and get ready to see more Bailey Shireman, all those fucking people. So just to update everybody. So again, Toronto on January 11th was 8-31. So that means they're 16-13 for two months. How is that possible? With that team, with all of the guys...

you know, basically not playing now for a while. If I look it up here, post all-star break, let me see how many games these dudes have played in. Well, RJ, well, I guess they played in more than I thought. Hey, can I welcome you to a special part of the show, which is brought to you today by Audi with their all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron. Yeah. We have the, uh, the Celtic city documentary that's going on HBO and a max and it runs on Mondays nine o'clock. And we did, uh, episode two is about Bill Russell.

Did you ever do the exercise? I know it's hard to cross eras, but did you ever do the exercise of, if you put Russell now, I don't think he can be the same height and weight. I think you almost have to make him 2025 Russell. So maybe make them like 6'11". But that skillset that he had, what would that look like now? Because I actually think he, there's a thought that he'd be like, I'd be bam out of bio and it's,

I think you have to add the better shoes, the better conditioning, all the diets, all the advantages they have now. I actually think he would be as impactful as he was 60 years ago is my hot take. But what do you think? Because there's more athletes now. The game's different. You need shooting. Obviously, he wouldn't be able to space the floor. There would be some stuff that would be a little weird, but

How do you see, like, when you try to translate the guys from the 60s to now, is it just impossible or are there things you think you could take? It always felt incredibly disrespectful to just go, okay, well, he's 6'8 and 225 and, you know, he'd be a role guy and it's Bill Russell. So I never wanted to do that. Maybe if I were really young, I'd be that way. But then every single person would tell you that saw him play.

Like he would, he would figure it out. It's like, well, what did he grow? You know? So like, what are we talking about here? It's almost like Michael Kidd Gilchrist size. He was six, nine and five eighths. So that's basically Tatum site. I think tech, cause I think Tatum's legitimately six, nine.

Yeah, Gilchrist is shorter than that. So, yeah, I shouldn't say that. But, you know, look, I got to interview him once. It was probably one of the biggest thrills of my career. And everybody asked him the same thing. And he's just like, I was going to run these guys. So is it is it a Mobley without the three in the corner a couple times a game? Is it Mobley like?

Mowgli 2.0, a crazy, crazy version of him where he's just all over the place, like having the greatest game of his life, but that's just him like game. The part that would be interesting to me is just how everything, because I read up on him after we had episode two, I just went on a Russell deep dive bench and it's the competitiveness thing that is just the over and over thing. He was just like psychotically competitive, which is what Jordan had too. So I think it'd be interesting to take that and just put that into the current

basketball season and league pass and like even put him in an all-star game and all these different, um, you know, things that we were always mad that the guys aren't trying harder, why they're going through the motions. And he just couldn't really do that until the tail end of his career and started to run out of gas. So what was it? He's he's seven and oh, in game sevens. I mean, some of the, I had some of the stats I had for you. Right. And then I think there's some other ridiculous one.

No, he's 16-2 in elimination games. He was 10-0 in game sevens. Against Wilt, he was 84-58. The interesting thing is, and I wrote a thing in my book about it, just the myths that come out of the Russell Wilt thing. And one of the myths is like, oh, Wilt's numbers were so much better than Russell's. And then you go to the playoffs...

They averaged the same amount of rebounds. Wilt had 24.5 rebounds in 160 games. Russell had 24.9, so he had more rebounds. Russell had 4.7 assists. Wilt had 4.2. And then Wilt scored 22.5 points and Russell had 16.2. So in the playoffs, which is that's 160 games, not a small sample size, you got six more points a game from Wilt.

and Russell was better at everything else, but Russell was also like the greatest teammate of all time and the best defensive player of all time. I don't know what we're arguing. And then the other thing was the supporting cast, which I debunked pretty quickly. Like, yeah, Russell, first five years of Wilt's career, Russell had better teammates. Then the next, the rest of Wilt's career, he always had the best teammates, you know, so that you can't say that one either. Yeah, he's weirdly become underrated sometimes.

partially because there's no stats that capture some of the stuff he did. Like we didn't keep track of blocks till 1973. So you're just like, yeah, Russell had a lot of blocks that game. And that's how we talked about him and like game seven of a conference finals, whereas like kept track of points and rebounds. So, um,

Yeah, I think he's underrated. He's fallen out of the GOAT conversation, even though he won the most. Everyone in his era has talked about how incredible he was and there was no greater winner, all that stuff. So obviously there's some hybrid, but to me, he's still in the top four all time. Yeah, the year they got them, 66, 67 season,

Loaded sixers team. Yeah.

I don't ever know what to do with Wilt because all the numbers look make-believe, but it would feel incredibly dismissive to look at Russell's size and go, he would just be this rotational guy that would match up and he'd be your small ball five center. You know, just...

It seems wrong. And maybe there's just no point in even doing that. Because it's... That's probably the answer. It would basically be what Jonathan Isaac was doing last year in the Magic in those 20-minute stretches multiplied by five. But he would have been doing it for eight straight months every year. While we were like, holy shit. Russell had 17 blocks? I think what I like the most is the last title that they got against the Lakers. Yeah. Like that one where...

People think it's kind of over. And I also loved in the doc where it was just very classic. And this is another example of things never change is that post-Red stepping down, they make Bill Russell player coach.

And so if you do something different and it doesn't work, it's way worse than just doing it the same and not having it work. So then it's a Russell thing and then it totally works out. And then as Russell wins a title, there's a press conference two days after and someone asks red, like, Hey, what did you actually think about the coaching? And the tone of it is they won and bread, just like sitting there. And I,

And I think the access, you know, all the different historical stuff that you guys have put into this. And I know there's so many people involved in this project. But of all of the projects, it's just good to remind people of what that run was. And for it to be partnered, you know, with your platform and with HBO. People are going to think I'm kissing your ass here, but I just think it's the truth. The same way The Last Dance. It was just nice little reminders. And when we didn't have games during COVID and we were watching those games.

those bull series and you and I were going through them, like, I'm really glad that I did it because it helped me have like a completely different level of appreciation. And it was the first time I was watching the bulls as somebody that just talks about basketball, not just a guy in college. It was pissed that Jordan was winning all the time. Like I didn't really appreciate Jordan enough because I certainly wasn't a bulls fan. And, you know, again, I wanted Barkley to beat him so bad in 93. So to watch this and I've seen a lot of this stuff, but to see it and

and then the added depth and how long this is going to go on. I do think that if you think of the worthy things of the 20th century that are worth reminding people of, 11 titles in 13 fucking years is a pretty good start. Yeah, I mean, that's certainly how we felt working on it because I just think people forget. And it's like, ah, there was only eight teams back then. I remember during the last dance,

you and I were doing those pods and we were so stunned how little everybody knew about the Jordan Bulls. It was one of the first times I really felt old. Remember there was that Rodman episode and everybody's like, Rodman, what was up with that guy? And we were like, what? He's just assuming everybody knew Rodman was this crazy up and down rollercoaster ride that they were able to just kind of corral in time for these three straight post seasons. And

basically people like my son just had no idea, which of course they wouldn't, but you just kind of forget because we know all the beats. So that was one of the things we were trying to do with the Celtic series anyway. It's a lot of meat there. What is it like for you personally to be able to produce something like this? That's basically your favorite thing in your life. For me, I didn't want to fuck it up. I mean, we had so many good people behind it, but I felt like I would have been so mad if somebody else did it and didn't get stuff right. So for me, it's like,

just let's not fuck this up. We got one chance. Let's try to make the best version of this. And, you know, I think what was the one like last, like last dance, I think did a great job of here's this piece of, unless you were his teammate, right? Well, that's true. But I mean, the stuff that people got mad about was pretty honest. And that was all that stuff that was in the books too. It was just a lot of people to know about it, you know? And Isaiah was mad about

how he was portrayed in it, which I get, I understand. But that was... Right, what'd you think was going to happen? Yeah, that was Isaiah's reputation. That's why he got left off the Dream Team, you know? Like he was a pretty polarizing guy when he played. So I think when you're doing these things, you have a responsibility to tell the history, be as fair as possible, weigh the agendas of the different people who are doing interviews for it. Because as the years pass, it becomes super easy to...

tweak stuff however way you want to make yourself look better. And, you know, these are documents. If you're doing them correctly, they're documents. I love Koozie admitting he'd never sniffed or snorted or shot up. He's like, I like Bob Koozie sitting there north of 90 going, I never considered myself hot. They show some campaign of him and Frank Gifford. Right. Where they were like, yeah, Gifford, a looker. And then

Great job.

There's just like, it's not even my generation. I don't even know if it's your generation. I think it's our father's generation of like the reverence and the holy fuck. And, you know, it meant a lot to me and I certainly appreciate it more now having my

the Celtics Comcast station, just invite me to be a part of that studio stuff. And I remember how much it meant to my father when he's like, you're sitting on a desk with Tommy Heinsohn, like you're sitting next to Tommy Heinsohn, kind of arguing about what just happened in a playoff game. And I'm kind of like, you know, Tommy was a little tough to me at first because he was like, who's this guy? And then he was a big teddy bear and we were great. And he was so awesome to me.

And, you know, maybe this doesn't resonate with anyone outside of the New England area or whatever, but like these dudes were gods to our fathers and at least the accomplishment, you know, it matches it. Like, how else would you have ever thought? Like, think about these guys as you have so many of the people in the dock going, you just went into every summer assuming the Celtics are going to win the world championship. It just, it was expected. I remember, I remember,

It came out that, or maybe I'd mentioned that I was writing my basketball book in the late 2000s. I think I probably told you this story, but I'll say it again. And I went to a Celtic game during the KG season. And some guy came up to me. He was an older guy. He was like my dad's age. And he was like, hey, it was like at halftime games. Like, hey, you're writing that basketball book. I saw you writing a basketball book. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, you better get Russell right. Russell was the best basketball.

You don't understand. Russell was the best. I was going to those games. Russell was the best. Just make sure your book covers that. He walked away. I was like, all right. Like little stuff like that matters. Like this guy was like, just went out of his way to tell me that for 12 seconds. Went and got a beer. I mean, honestly, it sounds like my dad might've grabbed you. Cause that's, and look, my father played and you know, he was, he was a big guy and he used to, for these high school all-star teams he was on,

They used to have those barnstorming things for the athletes in the off season. So Will actually told my father, he was like, Hey, cause he was, my father was always the tallest. And he was like, Hey, do you, uh, how many points you score? You know, he'd be like 16 or whatever. He's like, he goes, when the guards, when the guards go down the court, do you run after him?

And he was like, well, you know, he's like, never stop running. He goes, it's extra eight points a night. Don't. He goes, wow. He's like the guards. They always miss the layups. He's like, so when a guy gets out on the fast break, but it's one-on-one or it's two-on-two, you always...

run because it's extra points like it wasn't even thinking of like it's winning. It was it's extra points. Right. You know, I don't know if it's a thing where, you know, our our influences are so Celtics heavy based on what our families grew up rooting for. But the Wilt Russell thing to them is like embarrassing.

And yet you pull a basketball reference and it would seem embarrassing to think that Russell was better than Will. So, you know, I can only defer to kind of like, and look, I'm not even going to say I can defer to, I can read everything. Montville's most recent book that really got into that finals and the part where the comeback happens with Will. Like there's just a generation of people who,

that would look at Wilt as this guy that you actually wouldn't trust despite the resume. And it's just hard when you're not living it every day today and you're only going by other accounts. The crazy thing with Wilt was how many people, players and coaches who either played with him or against him or coached with him or against him just murdered him. And I don't know whether that was

or if he was that frustrating, but people just had no problems talking about how he didn't want the ball in the clutch. He's a pain in the ass. I mean, he did get traded twice during the prime of his career, which is usually a red flag. Anyway, Celtic City, third episode, the all new fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron, a huge leap forward featuring effortless power, serious acceleration, the most advanced tech of any Audi ever, experience technology that puts you center stage with a panoramic digital stage plus an

optional screen for front seat passengers. Perfect for watching the latest sports documentary, the Q6 e-tron, not just the new EV. It's a new way to experience driving. Learn more at outofusa.com. Always pay careful attention to the road. Do not drive while distracted. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm helps you score an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance with the personal price plan. Bundling home and auto, that's a pro move. Just another way you can save on your insurance needs.

Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Taxes was waiting and wondering and worrying. It's almost like how in the old days of fantasy football,

We used to have to tally the scores on a Monday and then the commissioner would just mail them out to everybody and you'd wait three days to see if you won. Those were the old ways of doing it. Now taxes is matching with a TurboTax live full service expert who gives your taxes their undivided attention. They can file your taxes as soon as today. And while they do, you get real time updates on their progress, meaning you can get back to what's important, the game.

Now this is taxes into a TurboTax. Get an expert now on TurboTax.com. Speaking of books, John Feinstein passed away. And he wrote one of the great sports books of all time, Season on the Brink, which I think breaks the game as the best sports book ever. I'll fight that one probably to the death because I don't think anyone's going to top it. And then there's four or five, six books after that that have to be mentioned.

And Season on the Break would be one of the first ones for me. I remember reading it on an airplane and the airplane could have crashed. I would have been like, hold on, hold on. I'm on page 68. Like, I just I don't think you can overstate how little information we had in the 80s.

And to have some reporter just go behind the scenes with Bobby Knight, who was this mythical figure, and just capture everything, how insane the guy was, how he dealt with the players and the story of that season. And, you know, I just, it was such a memorable experience. I probably read that book five, six times over the course of my life.

So after you read a book like that, you know, like the rest is gravy legacy wise. And during a week like this, he wrote a bunch of books, but that book was an all timer. I feel like it changed the way people approach sports books after that. And, uh, and it's a hall of famer for me, Rosillo. Yeah. I love the dynamic of that book because you have Bobby Knight who thinks like Feinstein's in on it with him. Yeah.

Right. Right. He's like, yeah, you know, this guy's just like, you know, a big fan. But he's young and he's ready to kind of make a name for himself. And then Bobby Knight looks at it as a complete betrayal. But it was like, well, what is like, however, that was accepted or what the understanding was.

it was two personalities where it actually made sense that after that book came out, like everybody was pissed, but it put John on the map. And I definitely enjoyed, like he had a, trying to remember, um,

I think that the open inside the robes ropes at Beth page black on the O2 us open. I love that one. The punch is awesome. Uh, good walk spoiled was a good one. Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of kept going back to him. Like he was one of those guys that just was benefit of the doubt for a really long time because of a season on the brink and it's, it predates Friday night lights. Right. So it, yes.

It was one of those things where you couldn't believe like you were getting this kind of information because we just never got any of it. We never got any of that kind of stuff. And Knight was really the number one guy as far as who, if you could ever spend a season with the coach and getting to know him, he'd be the first choice. And I think because John was so much younger, I believe is the way the story goes. Knight just was like, oh, whatever. Yeah. Like he can hang around because he's not established.

Yeah, sports books were in a weird spot because they used to be like those autobiographies that were written by the player, but they obviously weren't written by them. And when they made a splash, it was usually like when Spark Aloud did the Bronx Zoo and was shitting on Reggie Jackson in it. And they excerpted it in Sport Magazine. It was like, oh my God, he said that about Reggie? And that's kind of where we were. There was some good

autobiographies like Kareem. Kareem had a decent one. Wilt had a really good one. Bill Russell had two good ones. But for the most part, there wasn't books like this. Halberstam breaks into the game when he spent like a year just immersed in the NBA. It didn't hit like this season on the brink did because of the Knight stuff. Because Knight got mad was the difference. The way Knight reacted to the book became part of the story. And Knight was, I don't know, the first

In the 70s, 80s, 90s, one of the three or four biggest coaches, period. I don't even know how to describe him now. We don't have coaches like that anymore. Like you talked about Dan Hurley before. Nate was like 100 times bigger than Dan Hurley. Totally. I mean, you know,

Bobby Knight was this guy that, again, at the beginning of the generational stuff that we were talking about with the Celtics, everybody's dad would have wanted their son to play for Bobby Knight, which probably surprises a lot of younger people who are listening right now. Bobby Knight's where you would want your son to go play because he would turn you into a man. I would argue the more it continued, like Knight was, he was a great coach, but he was also a fucking bully, and I hate bullies. It started to cross a line there, but

you know, it's, it's just absurd to think of like how he, how he, it was, it was just so,

strained that Indiana was basically trying to figure out any way that they could move on from the guy. But it's pretty clear, even though John was with the Washington Post, I think the story goes, and I'm looking it up as we're kind of on the fly, because the book came out in 86, right? Yeah. And I remember my father never being able to put it down. And Feinstein was doing like,

a story on him and it was the week that he threw the chair. Yeah. And Feinstein didn't kill him. So it makes me think that maybe Knight was like, oh, I'll give this guy access and he's like an ally. And John was hoping to become like an author and get bigger book deals and everything. And, uh,

I think knowing John, not that I had a lot to deal with him because there wasn't, I don't know how much you dealt with him with your overlap at ESPN because it wasn't like he was coming up to Bristol doing a ton of stuff. He would come on to promote a book. I helped him promote a book with Red actually.

the red arback book that he did which was the worst time promotion of any book ever because red came up to the kowloon and saugus and john the kowloon yeah but it was the day after the red sox won the world series in 2004 so we had planned this all out actually eddie annelman planned it out and then he went to hawaii so then eddie wasn't on the air at the local station when the red sox broke the curse of eight decades and then they were like hey we gotta put you guys on

And we were like, okay, no problem. Then they're like, if it's a sweep, it's going to be the day after. And then people were calling in going like, are you guys the dumbest radio station? And it was like, we, yes, yes, yes. The answer is yes. But it sucked because Red's there in person and you know, it's Red. I mean, are you kidding me? Like two years before he died. Right. And so John is really thankful at the time because we're promoting the book and the book was fun. It was, you know, it was a little different. It was kind of like this lunch thing that he would tell these different stories, but whatever.

Yeah. That book, that red book was written, I think three different times by three different authors. It was like stories about red. I read all of them. I enjoyed them. Um, that book came out in 86. Another really interesting thing happened with it. Then they had the Steve Alford Keith smart year after the book. And I didn't have like a favorite college basketball team after the BC gambling scandal. It was kind of, I was kind of a free agent and that book made me like the Indiana Red

Just kind of like, oh, I know those guys. And when that run happened and then they beat DC and Syracuse, you know, and one of the worst no timeouts of all time. Another one that's forgotten. Go watch that game on YouTube. Young people listening to this.

uh, key smart hits a shot with like three seconds left in Syracuse. She's completely botches. I don't know what they're trying to do anyway. Um, it was so interesting watching that run with the background of this book and how vivid it was and all the characters and offered everybody else. Um, it's a really great one. It's worth, it's worth, it's not that long. I think it's totally worth rereading.

And, uh, and I'm going to read it at some point over the next six weeks. Cause I just, everybody talking about it got me fired up. And we talked about what Russell would be like now. Can you imagine taking 1986 Bobby Knight and just dropping him into college sports in 2025 and the NIL era and social media and people getting triggered? I think he would get fired within five minutes. Um, it's like Bobby has been hired. Oh, Bobby Knight has now been fired.

I wouldn't say he was the easiest ESPN employee they've ever had either. No, I don't think he was. But, you know, there was sort of some grandfather status there. And they kept putting him on TV. And look, I mean, you know, Bobby was, he was like the best for his era. But you're right. Like it was, he couldn't fathom seeing the sport evolve the way that it would, you know. And I think there's.

There's something to be said of being like, hey, when everything's even, I'm going to be better than anybody else I'm going up against as a coach. And for a really long time, you could definitely make that claim with Knight. He's a good character in breaks of the game, too. There's some good Bobby Knight stuff in there. Before we go, give us three minutes. What do we need to know about March Madness? The Johnnies, baby. We're back. It's pretty funny. I was...

Thinking about St. John's, I grew up a big St. John's fan, as a lot of people know. So two seed going up against Omaha. You're a big Howard Trish guy, I remember. Yeah, that's the bigger reason. The last time I cared this much, they were the two seed against Gonzaga, and they lost in the second round. I think it was Santangelo went crazy. And at the time...

I was not in the business. I was just a 24 year old kid, super fired up, you know, just so I was, I cared about this more than I care about the NBA and my buddy and his girlfriend and my girlfriend were like the Gatsby's and they were like, Hey, we're going to come over and watch the game. And I was like, this is a terrible idea. And I had like a studio and I,

You know, you know, when you're, you move into a studio apartment with no actual bedroom and the mattress is still there and you're like, when that's kind of the place I was at in my life. And so my buddy kind of knew, and then his girlfriend was foreign. Uh, and I think the reason I said yes is because the girl I was dating was a teacher. So it would have made sense that next game would have been like maybe the Saturday or whatever. Um,

So I was like, okay, I guess like I have to do this because you can't see each other during the week all that much, which I actually, you know, was great for me. So I was so fucking mad about that game because I love that team so much in 99, the run that they made the regional final against Ohio State, which by the way, I watched that in Jamaica and I was at it.

I told everybody just to leave me alone for a little bit. And then a busload of Ohio State fans showed up to the grill and cheering on Ohio State as St. John's lost the regional final. So I had a terrible time that time. So then I was going to watch it alone. Anyway, Gonzaga beats him. St. John's loses. And I was so mad, Bill. I was so mad. I left my own apartment and had to walk.

down the street. I had to go for a walk down church street by myself. And then the German girl was like, I think in her accent was like, I think you take sports too seriously. And I was like, yeah, but now is not the time. Yeah. I'm surprised that's all he said. Well, my buddy thought I was kind of being a loser, but he understood. You should have come back with something from like some sort of German history thing just to fuck with her. Yeah. Right. Just like you guys decided to defend a peninsula in the ocean. Yeah.

dumb asses. I remember my friend Ben, who, uh, I can talk about this story now cause he's not with the person anymore, but the Pat, the Patriots game when they lost to the Ravens in the playoffs and like 2011 ranch when Ray Rice just first play. Yeah. No, it might've been the jets game. What was the one where Ridley got knocked out? It was the jets. Um, the rematch after they killed them. Yeah. It's the jets game. Um,

He came over halftime with his girlfriend, who I don't even think he'd been dating that long. But I was like, you should come over and watch the game with me and my dad. And it was like Pats fans. And then he showed up with the girlfriend. The moment I saw her, I knew the Pats were going to lose. I was just like, the vibe's off in the room. I feel like we're controlling this. But the Jets just went on a run right after they showed up. So I make fun of him about it now, but I thought it was a bad sign.

Yeah, it wasn't in no form at like 24 years old. It's not rational in any way. Right. There's no way that I'd be like, one, my apartment was disgusting. Yeah. But again, we're all young, right? So we're young enough to think like it would still be normal. And meanwhile, like his girlfriend, my girlfriend kind of knew, but she didn't really love that version of me. But again, she was actually kind of a sweetheart and like just she gave me a lot of rope. And looking back, it was like, man, I was such a dick. But

His girlfriend was annoying the shit out of me because she would be like, do you have any more Chardonnay? And I'm like, are you fucking – You're just trying to focus on the game. Like, is this guy going to miss a three? Yeah, right. And there's like one couch. There's not a lot of room. Again, it's a studio, so I don't even know if it was 200 square feet. And I'm sitting there, and I cared about the outcome of that game probably as much as like –

maybe the sun's bulls in 93. Um, well, some of those A's series with the socks, you kind of knew they weren't going to get it done. So it wasn't like this massive, the Dave Stewart era, Dave Stewart. Yeah. But,

Maybe the comeback against the Angels in 86. I'm just trying to think of the outcomes of games that I cared about that much because it was like the very end of my run of not being in the business and being desensitized to it a little bit. But it was the worst possible setup. And then I was convinced the only reason why St. John's was losing is because I allowed this to happen. So that's on me, really. So now the Johnnies are back.

Nephew Kyle is all into. FaceTime twice. I don't think you guys are going to be closer than right now. You know, can I say one St. Johnny's thing? Because I've been, and we've probably even talked about this. I've never understood why NBA teams don't add presses if they have depth.

I feel like on the side of OKC was just like, hey, with our seven through 12 guys, let's just have a press that we can do for three minutes and the team will never know when it's coming. It would be one of the great weapons we could have in basketball, especially against certain teams that don't necessarily have a backup. Didn't Patino try that though? Patino tried it as like an actual regular season. We're going to do this for long stretches. I'm just saying a little three minute thing like, oh, yeah.

that Austin Reeves is going to be the point guard right now. Let's press this guy for three minutes with the press that we've been working on. I just think there's something there that would work if you had the athletes, but I like that when they do it in college, because it just seems like it, it just seems so terrifying. Everybody loves Florida.

They're on it now that Clayton jr. Kid, the kid that was at Iona that apparently Patino like was trying to get to go to St. John's. Um, he was damn near perfect in the Alabama win. He was really good again today. He's a real point guard. You know, I don't even know if he's on the draft list or whatever. And then they've got two huge guys that can go to, they can play defense. They can throw a lot of size at you. And, um, you know, they kind of ran away from Tennessee. Tennessee had a lot of foul trouble today. Uh,

Look, I think St. John's has seven to eight guys where you all feel like they bring something to the table. The knock on them is they're not going to be able to shoot it enough to win six games. 29-1 on FanDuel. So is Florida the favorite? Florida's plus 390. No, they're second. Duke's the favorite, plus 320. Duke's the favorite because apparently Flag is coming back? Yeah. Yeah, I don't really... Look, I started watching the last... I've been watching St. John's now pretty regularly, but...

I watched all the conference tournament stuff, but I could barely get through that. I don't even try to fake it during the championship weekend anymore. I'm just like, oh, I'll jump in when the tournament starts. It's another thing I've just given up as I've gotten older because I'm choosing to watch OKC in Detroit for some reason. Game 68, OKC's already locked up a one seed. And for some reason, I'm picking that over like a college hoops game.

Yeah, I don't really have anything. Anybody that's been watching all season long, I'm not going to offer them anything. But I did enjoy watching this week. I enjoyed watching Florida a lot. You ran on flag, though. What's that? You ran on flag.

Oh yeah. No, I mean, it just sucks. You got hurt, but watching, I think it was the last regular season, North Carolina game. And I watched the BC game where it looked like everybody in BC wanted to punch him in the face, which was a good sign because flag responded well to it. Yeah. But it's not like I'm, I'm not your guy to ask anything up. I know what the Johnny's look like. It's about it. Uh, we're still out. You're doing two pods this week. We'll be back on this pod next week. Um, we were going to do a gimmick for today, but then we,

farted around with all this other stuff, which is my fault. So we'll do the gimmick next week that I was really excited about, but I thought would have been really good. Somehow we still killed two hours, uh, without doing the giant gimmick that I thought we were going to do. Um, we'll back that pack next week. And then, uh, thanks to Gahal and Kyle and Suri as well for producing new rewatchables coming Monday night. We did days of thunder. We're still a cruise Kidman. Oh, no kidding. Maybe sort of. Yes.

Oh, no, no. I mean, who wasn't in on that? How could you even call yourself an American back then and not be excited about it? It's really good. We're a little critical of Cruz. Not going to say he's on autopilot in it, but he's done better. It's still great. I mean, he still puts up 25, 7, and 8, but you won't be telling your grandkids about cold trickle. Does the wheelchair race scene not hit as hard? No, it's harder. It's harder. Harder.

Yeah, it's great. We broke it down. Anyway, that's tomorrow. And then our Prestige TV, The White Lotus, episode five, which is a capital B banger, which you got to watch tonight. Capital B pulsating in bold banger. I'm watching it. I am on it. I needed something after the Ruby Frankie documentary, which I would suggest maybe not watching. Adolescence on Netflix is good too. Check that out. Anyway, Rousseau, good to see you. See you.

Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president DC gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat and visit

in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Hookah. I've got to talk to you guys about the Bondi 9, the new daily trainer from Hookah. The

The Bondi 9 delivers peak plushness for everyday miles overhauled from top to bottom. They've increased the stack height and added a new premium foam midsole to deliver that soft, resilient ride that's become synonymous with the Bondi. And look, I walk a lot. I walk all around LA. You need good shoes for that. These are perfect. Everybody, Bondi. Visit hookah.com, H-O-K-A.com to learn more about the Bondi 9.