Part 2: Minnesota Knocks Out Denver (Good God!!!) With Ryen Russillo
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Coming up, part two, Minnesota did it. What the hell? That's next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. With the Olympics this summer, things are only going to get more heated. Cool off with a pack of Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer. I love the Olympics. I love the track and field, but my favorite, hands down, is the basketball, especially now that all the other countries have gotten so good. I watch all the basketball.

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. New rewatch was going up Monday night. Back to the future. Part two. Don't forget, you can watch that on our Ringer Movies channel on YouTube as well. Don't forget about Fairway Wrong, Joe House, Nathan Hubbard, breaking down Xander Schauffele winning the PGA Championship. If you missed part one of this podcast, Priscilla and I talked about Knicks and Pacers and we talked about OKC and Dallas and what a Indiana-Boston series is going to look like. Part two.

At halftime, I did not expect this would be the podcast we would be doing. I was eating some Indian food and that was a mistake because I'm a little groggy. But then I was a little groggy for the Minnesota game. Rosilla carried part two for us, but it's a good one. It's next. Minnesota beats Denver. Game seven. Holy shit. First, our friends from Pro Gym. ♪♪

All right. Taping this 740 Pacific time. Just watch Minnesota make an unbelievable comeback in Denver. I cannot wait to talk to her soul about this. We're still at halftime of the Knicks Pacers game. The Knicks were down, I think 15 and

There was a stat about the biggest game seven halftime comeback ever. And it was 11 points. That was the biggest game seven halftime comeback ever. It was golden state in 1975 against Chicago. And then our guys, Steph Curry did it against Houston in 2018. 11 was the record until today. Minnesota came back from 15 down. I think they had a 54 to 24 run at one point and they took the belt from the champs, at least for this round.

What was the biggest thing that jumped out at you this game other than having about seven heart attacks? That I kind of just can't believe it actually happened. You know, because if you were going to lay it all out, I picked Minnesota in the series, but it wasn't like I was walking around today being like, yeah, Denver, no problem. Like, they'll figure it out. Like, when I saw Jokic standing up for the six straight minutes and everybody was sending out that picture from game six when Minnesota was up 50, you're like, uh-oh.

You know, this could be bad. And the game was kind of playing out a way that a lot of these games played. Like, I love this series. I love this series, but we haven't had these amazing finishes in them. I just like how different it's been. I think these are the two best teams in the NBA, and maybe we'll get into that a little bit, but that it actually happened, that they pulled this off, this team that's...

you know, just this is, I guess, year two of this group, but it's not like it was a deep run last year, but they actually did it. And that Ant was this bad throughout most of the game and they were able to do it. Yeah, it's funny. He was six for 24, which was a famous stat line, Kobe 2010 finals.

And yet I thought he was a huge part of this game. I liked the way he played. His shot wasn't going in. They're throwing two, three people at him. And he had to slowly figure out over the course of the game, how can I still affect this game with my offense when they're just basically putting this wall in front of me? And what took it over for him, they put him on Murray at some point in the third quarter and Murray disappeared. And he did the best job guarding Jamal Murray I've ever seen anybody do. And the defense got the offense going a little bit. They got some steals, some turnovers.

but it was reminiscent of Kobe in that game seven, where it was, it went from seeming like it was going to be this just historic disaster for him. And something mentioned the first sentence of his, of his NBA basketball reference, whenever we talked about him to, he flipped the game and he started pounding the rim. He got rebounds and he just figured out how to affect it with his defense, all these different ways. And I thought it was such a special ant game because sometimes when you're not playing well, that's kind of where you have to,

show how good of a basketball player you are, right? Like you can have games where the ball goes in and it looks great, but it's games like this when you just have to figure out, I don't really have it. How else can I help the team? And then Towns gets in foul trouble and you could just see Edwards and then Nasri, they're just trying to lift each other up. I thought it was really cool. I think this team is really in on each other and really sticks up for each other. And there's no ego at all with these guys. They just want to win and they showed it.

Yeah, they were sending doubles of him with like zero caution. I mean, if Cat had it at the top of the key and then swung it to Ant, Cat's guy would just come to double Ant. Like they just didn't care. And then Jokic was coming up. Jokic was coming up too. And sometimes there was like a triangle in front of him.

So one of the things that they lost this series, I think they would have gone back and looked at it and saying, if there's any way that you can like dribble away from the double or throw it to somebody and then get it right back, because usually the double doesn't stay with you. Like there has to be more at the rim. There has to be more there with the drives. And we saw Ant try to do it. But like one of the most frustrating plays when I thought at that point, I'm like, all right, where's this game going to go?

he was on a drive and he like threw it off to Rudy to his side. And I'm like, what is going on? But you're absolutely right about the defense. Yeah, you're absolutely right about the defense. He was incredible. This defense that was as impressive as anything I've seen all season in the first half of game two. And I

Now, I don't know that it was exactly that again throughout it all, but Nas Reed coming in and he decided to attack. He had his layup where he didn't want to pass it to Rudy when Rudy was wide open at the baseline. Rudy made a great play on an offensive rebound to even keep one of the other possessions alive. And then, you know, Cat has that follow dunk where I think it was Pope just fell asleep and let him crash the rim.

And that was kind of the game. So Cat had some really good moments offensively and they needed to carry Ant because six of 24 is just like, if you were going to say, Hey, those Timberwolves are going to win and Ant's going to go six to 24. He'd be like, well, what? There's no way that happened. And it did. He had seven assists, two steals, eight rebounds. I looked up at one point, the Nuggets 69 combined for Yoko Jumori. So this is the same thing I looked up. So the other guys in Denver scored 21 points.

And yeah, we can go to Minnesota stuff, but Michael Porter Jr. Aaron Gordon wasn't rebounding at all for some reason. Caldwell Pope didn't have it. Nobody on their bench came through and gave them any sort of game seven, a rational conference boost. And if you, so you said the six for 24 thing with Ant, I'd flip it. If I told you everyone on Denver, not named Yoko Jamur is going to score 21 points in this game. We would have been like, Ooh,

That sounds not great. Right. So, you know, I thought this was a pretty good Yoko Jumori game for the most part, but the other guys let him down and I don't know, the league's better than it was last year. I don't, they don't have Bruce Brown. They weren't, they weren't the Porter game. The last like, uh,

I don't know. At least three stinkers from him in this series, too, right? No. The last four games, he scored a total of 25 points. He was the third-leading scorer tonight with seven. Aaron Gordon played 42 minutes, had four points, four rebounds. Maybe the rebounds there because Jokic was insane with the rebounding, especially in the first half, but still. It's hard to play 42 minutes and have four points and four rebounds. The two guys did it, even if maybe just because of the status that we have Jokic at, you're like, I actually needed more out

out of you offensively. Like I needed a little bit more. He went 0 for 7 on his, I think, first seven three-point attempts. He had a couple there later in the game. But, you know, throughout all of the different stuff that's happened in this series, it's funny to think that like the guy that probably impeded Jokic the most was Kat. You know, I'm glad you brought this up. There's so many winners and losers from this game in this series. And I made a list at halftime.

And half of the guys who I had as winners or losers, they either flipped one way or the other way. Or then I added new guys. Towns, a guy I wouldn't say is either of our favorite player, right? No, he's good tonight. He was really good tonight.

He did pick up the ridiculous fifth foul. We're like, oh no, you were doing so well. It was like watching a little kid in the playground. Like, oh no, you threw sand at somebody. Why? Why? You were having such a fun time with everybody. But I thought he kept him in it in the first half when Ant didn't have anything. I thought his defense on Jokic was really good. And I really liked how he played. I thought that was like a breakthrough game for him.

Am I crazy? No, but I mean, it is funny because what Nas did when he came off, they were going to bring him back in. So I was like, what's going to happen here? They really did it. I mean, they didn't have to, though, because Nas came in and that that was like one of three times the game flipped. Nas had that huge block on Jokic and the big putback dunk. And at that point, then Edwards hit the back break three. And now all of a sudden it was 98, 92, 82 out of nowhere. And Towns wasn't involved in any of that.

Yeah. And then Rudy fouls out. So Kat comes back in to close it. But it, it was just a weird game. I mean, game sentences are weird. Whatever happened to the home court thing, it's over. It's just, if you, if you cut the NBA history by a certain line, you know, it used to be what, 80%, maybe 82% of the time teams won, or maybe it used to be over. Yeah. Yeah. It just used to be like, you lose that game. And for whatever reason, recent history tells you that, that

that home court hasn't meant as much with this. But I'm just really impressed. You know, I'm just incredibly impressed with this group finding a different way to win. Finding a different way to win against a team in Denver where you're like, okay, well, what's the score going to be? Okay, they're going to be at home. Jokic and Murray and all these different things. You're just expecting every possession's going by being like, they're screwed up offensively. Like, this defense has cranked it up a level here. And...

everybody's kind of contributing and even McDaniels too deserves love for having a couple big offensive games because he's just capable of having like a four or six point dud in there and all these other guys stepped up and and beat you know a team that I would have picked against Dallas a team in Denver that I would have picked against the Boston Indy winner you know I just would have picked Denver the rest of the way and they found a way to get him at their place I mean it's incredible

Jokic played 23 minutes in the first half. He needed 13, 15, five in the first half. I know. Um, they started out dude. I thought he looked tired. Um,

It felt like he just needed a blow at some point. And the fact that Minnesota could just bring Nas Reed off the bench as this fresh, you know, like some reliever in the ninth inning coming in and just throwing 103 miles an hour. I don't think that was helping matters. They played seven guys. And I mean, Kyle Anderson only played four minutes, which was, I think the right move, right? Did you feel like at halftime they were going to dump Gobert?

Well, you know, my biggest issue with this game, and if it had gone the other way, you know, this would have come up, but I still think it's a relevant point, is that Rudy was ending up with the ball way too much. Yeah. Too many possessions where you're like, okay, well, I understand defensively what you think you have, but...

You know, some of you guys, and that's why I thought that Nas Reid layup was so interesting because he didn't have great balance, but he's like, you know, if I just sort of lean over this way and Rudy like got his hands up ready for the catch and Nas is like, nah, but I just am never going, I don't care win or lose. And even though Rudy threw in that prayer with five seconds left in the shot clock, which was ridiculous. And at that point you're like, maybe it's Minnesota's night. I just,

I'm never going to be a huge fan of when Rudy ends up with the ball in his hands as many times as he did in the first half tonight. But the defense and that offensive rebound he had late was such a huge offensive rebound that I just don't think coaches do the stuff that we always wonder if they'll do. Yeah. Well, they had 11 offensive rebounds. I'm glad you brought up that turnaround. So Minnesota, I think, had five or six shots in the second half where you go, what the fuck? That went in?

Like there was one where Nas Reed got like, it looked like he got almost got a hit and he just kind of flung it with his left hand. And it just like line drived in from five feet. McDaniels had one go bear had that one when he was going down the middle and he just flung it off the backboard and it went in and they started adding up. And I always keep track of that. Cause it's, it's basically like the stat that they don't keep track of a basketball reference.com or the, you know, the, how the fuck did that go in shots? And then when go bear made that crazy turnaround, uh,

That was the first time I was like, holy shit, Minnesota might actually win this game. But I kept waiting for the late Denver run. Like I tweeted at one point, I thought it was going to go in overtime because I just thought we've seen it so many times with Denver that as soon as like the game calmed down a little with three, four minutes left, they were just going to do their thing. And the problem for them was they were just doubling Jokic basically the whole time. And really from the first quarter, you know, he only had...

I don't even think he got, he got seven assists. Um, and they missed some shots from him, but for the most part, they were, uh, they're basically imploring him to pass to everybody else and then nobody else could make a shot. So that, that was smart. Um, 34 points for him, 47 minutes, but it just didn't feel, it felt like they were a little discombobulated and the defense would buy Minnesota in the second half was on par with the game two defense. I thought, right.

I don't know that I'd put it at that just because it was those first 24 minutes because, you know, when I'm looking at how it was, it was like 61-55 and Denver still has the lead. And Cat, you know, at that point at 17 points, he's six for 11. You know, Ann had just had a bad turnover. But when I was tracking some of the threes, like Jokic, KCP, Porter Jr., Jokic had a nice step back that he usually always hits. I mean, there were four shots in that stretch where I'm like, these are all really good looks. But... You're right. Yeah.

You know, whether you can combine like, I don't know if it's the exact same thing, because I do think it's hard for somebody like and at this stage of his career to be like, OK, I want to make the right play. I don't want to force anything. So I'm going to actually get rid of the ball. And the doubles were so hard. It wasn't like, hey, let's be tricky with these and disguise them. It's just we don't care. Like, this is what we're going to do. And lucky enough, Minnesota had enough balance around it to not.

you know, end up being something where it's like, okay, we're really stuck because nobody else is making any shots. So I wonder if that just throws Ant's rhythm off where it's like if nothing's ever really felt all that comfortable and then that adds to everything else. And that's, you know, that's the task that is attached to the great ones. We're like, hey, you still need to go ahead and figure this out. Where with Denver, like there's all these good looks, I thought, even during that stretch where, yes, some of it's definitely the defense, but there were other times I'm like, man, you guys are just...

I don't know if they started feeling themselves up 20 because you're not thinking, there's no way if you're Denver, you think you're blowing a 20-point lead to Minnesota. They were eight for 33 from three. Yeah, I took notes as, you know, I always, especially for this game, I wanted to take notes as it went along. And the first note I had in the third quarter was Minnesota gets it to 61-57. I don't understand what happened. Yeah. They had a 19-3 run.

And it didn't feel like anything substantial was happening, but all of a sudden they were just getting stops and scoring on the other side. And at some point it was like, Oh, this is 10. Oh, this is eight. And Denver just looked a little flustered. And it was the kind of spot, especially last year where they would get Porter or Bruce Brown or somebody else would start making a couple of plays for them. And they just, it just didn't happen for them today. I thought

I just thought it was such a fascinating Edwards game. I mean, my memory of this game 20 years from now will be Ant, who is clearly going to be a really special player, barring injury. Like he's really, like the shit that he's done in the playoffs now, this is, we are now on the track for something truly, truly, truly special. And it's games like this that form somebody's career. It's when you don't have it.

How do you figure out how else to impact the game? And he, and he did it. And I thought, I never felt like, you know, you and I have watched a lot of Edwards. I never felt like he lost his confidence. Right. They never showed him where I was like, oh, ants rattled. Ooh, ant doesn't look like, ant doesn't look like he has it or ants got like darty eyes or anything. It's just, it just looked like he was like, I know, I know what's happening. I got to figure out how to solve this, but I never felt like he was rattled. It's so unusual for a 22 year old.

It's really like about as uncommon as it gets for the NBA, in my opinion. I don't know if I'm all the way there with you, but I think your point is stronger by when you remind us of the defense, that he stayed in it defensively, where there's other players that are scorers when they're not scoring, then the two things are connected. And the fact that he was like, all right, I got to figure something out, like the steal on Murray and then the dunk.

That was just another reminder, a bit like the Game 2 stuff that we were talking about. It's like, okay, you're not going to just be able to bring the ball up. You're just not going to be able to. I can't wait to see what they try to throw at Dallas because McDaniels just isn't stout enough. I imagine Ann will get a chance as well. They'll probably try a bunch of different things, but

it's so brutal when you can't get into your offense as quick as you're used to getting into it. And, you know, there was, I think, a five and a half minute stretch during this entire Minnesota run to come back and get in this game where Denver doesn't score a point or didn't make a field goal. I think there might have been a free throw in there where they didn't score for like five and a half minutes. So, yeah, credit to Ant and the defense stuff, but you just... Wait, one more thing on the Ant piece.

He didn't do the thing either where, and it's like, it's not going for me. I'm just going to frantically drive to the basket in the seven people. And like he was driving in the basket, but he was still like kicking out and he was making the right plays and setting up people. And so I, I never felt like he lost control of the game where we've watched other young players in that situation. Yeah.

And sometimes I, especially with younger players, I feel like, oh, they're now they're pressing too much. Now I can see they're doing this, but he just kind of put all of his energy in the defense and just trying to continue to get into the paint. It was weirdly a good six for 24. I don't know. I don't know how else to put it. Like, I don't feel that I don't feel that bad about it. Like he airballed a shot at one point. He bricked some threes and I'm like, oh my God, is this just going to go south? And it didn't. He fought out of it. Right. But I,

I feel like, you know, whatever was waiting for him, if they don't pull this off, it's like, oh, you know, yeah, the guys that liked him liked him and they still like him. You know, like I don't look at Jokic today going, okay, we need, there are certain players that I feel a certain way about and even players who I don't like, I don't expect them to score zero points all the time in the playoffs. And this is kind of what it turns into a little bit. So had they lost,

you know, Ant gets crushed and then it's like, okay, well, he had a, he had a really bad game in a huge spot. I would not have crushed him for the bad game. I'm thinking more like the fact that they won and pulled it out. What does that mean compared to some of the great players we've seen in the past? Right. Cause like Kobe had that moment.

And maybe they lose next round. It's not going to matter as much. But Kobe had that moment in the finals in Indiana when Shaq fouled out and he had to like lift the team basically. And it was like, oh, can you do this? I was like, oh, okay, he can do this. You know, LeBron had that moment against Detroit in 07 when it was like, well, if you don't score every time your team's going to lose. He's like, oh, maybe I can score every time. And he scored like 25 straight.

And Edwards in this game, it's like, Hey, unless you become a two way player on the highest possible level and you start actually making a couple of plays and shots and you shut down Murray on the other end, you guys aren't winning. And then he actually did it. So I don't know what this means from going forward, but I thought it was a good checkpoint for him to hit, I guess is my point. Um, let's take a break. I want to go through some of the, uh, the winners and losers. Cause that is a bountiful list.

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slash BS. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. With the Olympics this summer, things are only going to get more heated. Cool off with a pack of Michelob Ultra, a superior light beer. I love the Olympics. I love the track and field, but my favorite, hands down, is the basketball, especially now that all the other countries have gotten so good. I watch all the basketball.

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At halftime, it felt like the anti-Gobert trade take people. We were going to be winners. Like, see? Told you. And then what happens? Second half hits. Rudy actually did some good stuff in the second half, I thought. And was not a detriment. I was thinking in the first half,

To get Ant going, they were going to have to take him out so they could spread the floor for him and give him more space. Turned out it didn't matter. But he had some good moments. He had some good rebounds. Seven to nine free throws. That was huge. Yeah, made a couple free throws. He was ending up with the ball so much. And then he got fouled a lot on those catches. When you look at his total shot attempts, I mean, he only had seven field goal attempts. It felt like he ended up with the ball a ton in the first half. Yeah.

The guy made his free throws and, you know, the Aaron Gordon stuff that was him bringing the ball up, him running to the dunker spot, you know, having those burst moments for four or six minutes where Denver feels like, okay, cool, Gordon's doing stuff. Maybe it'll open up something for the rest of us here and then it doesn't happen. So, yeah, Rudy, I just don't want to update the Rudy trade every 24 hours. No, we're going to. That's what we're going to do on Sundays. Jokic, yeah.

Jokic in a loss 34-19-7. And this series for him reminded me a little of Giannis and that Milwaukee-Boston series the year after they won when Giannis was just awesome.

and then Boston beat them anyway and beat them for reasons that really didn't have a lot to do with Giannis, right? And it was, you still left the series going, wow, Giannis is incredible. I'm still going to leave this series thinking, wow, Jokic is incredible. His third quarter, his third quarter game five is, like I saw something where it was like arguably one of the two best quarters in playoff history based on

He's shooting point total in the assists and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I'll admit, like, I think I have him just such an absurd standard that maybe I wanted a little bit more from him offensively down the stretch. But he's not just going to take a million bad shots. It's just not who he is. So if he had taken five more shots and went one of five, would we say he was aggressive, more aggressive? But yeah, I'm basically there with you. I think the Giannis comp is perfect because, you know, sometimes these guys are this good when they lose. I'm not going to go like, all right, got to move them down now. Two for 10 from three.

and didn't protect the boards. Minnesota got a couple offensive boards. See, we're taping this. I didn't get a chance to watch the second half again and really study it, but it felt like all of a sudden they felt a little OKC-ish trying to protect the boards. He had a couple catches, though. He had that one three, and Reggie did point it out. Like on the catch, he was hesitant, and I feel like I see this a lot from guys.

where they pass on the better look on the catch and then reset themselves into a worse look. And he had one of those, but I'm nitpicking here. Murray finished with 35. He had 24 in the first half. And it looked like we were going to have to update the... If Denver had won, one of the segments I want to do with you were how many guards would you take before we get to Murray and go through that? But then Denver ends up blowing the game, so we don't have to do that. But the Jokic-Murray combo, which I still think is really special,

And, you know, Denver won last year. Minnesota hasn't won yet. There's a hunger level that I feel like factors in just a whiff in games like this, where when you've been there and you've been the hunted one for the entire season, plus the playoffs versus the team, that's like, this would be literally the highlight of my career if we win this game. And you could feel it a little bit. Denver just looked a little tired to me and a little static. Yeah.

compared to Minnesota who just, you see their bench, the entire bench is fucking losing their minds on every basket, every block, everything. They just, you know, it's the law of the NBA. I don't know who has a good time being outscored 54-24, but you're right about Minnesota. Yeah. Like, hey, we're getting work by like 30 since we were up 20, but hey, let's start high. DeAndre, you want to get a cheer going? Hey, you want to start the wave? Yeah.

Okay. So they seem, they seem shell shocked. The fact when Minnesota came back, I thought the demeanor changed for Denver when it was like 61 57 felt different. You're not a little shell shocked that this actually happened. Oh, I am. I am. It didn't seem real until Ann hit the three. Even when they're up seven with the ball, I'm like, nah, I really thought we were headed to overtime or something. And then Ann hit the three and the turnaround and

When Cat couldn't get it inbounded and it was a turnover, I was like, wait, is this going to be one of these all-time moments of like, remember when they were up eight and all this bad stuff happened? You know, there was part of me that was like, oh no, and here's the great thing about the win. We'll never think about that play again. Another winner loss. A loser, I think, is Denver as we started thinking about what kind of run could this team go on.

Their window was the two years before they won the title when Murray missed last year, this year, and probably like two more. And there's a bunch of teams coming and now they've won one title and that's it, which makes them no different than Milwaukee, which makes them no different than Kauai and Toronto, et cetera, et cetera. I think we'll be hearing from them again. I'm sure they'll probably go into the lab. Kyle Mann texted this to me, actually. I thought it was interesting.

Question, does this loss, if you're Denver, make you start to think you need to do something a little more drastic than that? Do you start thinking about beyond Jokic and Murray and Gordon, I think? You start looking at that Michael Porter spot a little more seriously. Hey, is this something we should move on? Well, the problem whenever we bring up this stuff is just, okay, but how bold do you want to get for a team that was right there and being a one seed until the last weekend?

who may have lost to the eventual champs because this was an absurd second round matchup. So if there was a player that was really good that was unhappy and then is like, I actually want to play in Denver, which is a great athlete city, but I don't know that people ever think of it as a destination. Anybody that's ever played sports there is like, oh wait, everybody always seems to keep a house there because Colorado is awesome, but it's...

but it's never thought of as like an NBA destination. If you were talking about playing style, if you were a star that was like a little bit older and you're like, okay, I want to go play with that guy, Jokic, because he's going to make my life that much easier. So there's a lot of reasons, but to get that bold, something would have to be available. Porter Jr., it was a bad series. It just was. And he's really expensive for kind of a one-dimensional guy. But during that Lakers series, he was incredible. Like he kept them in some of those games where if it weren't for him,

I still don't know that they were going to lose to the Lakers in seven, but Porter Jr. kept them in some of those games when nobody else could really get anything going, especially with some of the Murray stuff. Even though he hit the game winners, it wasn't like he was just dominant all those games. And the great thing about Porter Jr. that I love from Bob Myers, who was on one of the calls of the game, he ended up with 23-8.

And the shooting numbers are absurd, 55 and 49 from three. And Bob was like, you know, this is somebody, this is the stuff with Myers that I like on the broadcast. You know, I know it's the first year and everything, but he's sharing with you like what his evaluation was of certain players. Yeah. And he's like these rebounding numbers. And then he had dove for a loose ball. He goes, I can't believe Michael Porter Jr. is diving for at least, he's like, I never had that in a scattering report. So,

I actually think there were some great playoff moments for him where he was more well-rounded as opposed to, you know, like he's not going to pass the ball a ton. We know kind of what his game is at this point. So,

With his injury history, I'm sure they would, like, if it was some other player, we're like, okay, this completely raises our ceiling. But they're just, look, when we pencil in the best three or four teams next year, Denver's on the list, this version of it already. So as much as other teams are coming and OKC and whatever happens around, here, let me put it to you this way. I remember in 18 when we were doing the show together and Boston lost to Cleveland in game seven, all right? And you were like,

This sucks because the window, you know, this is going to change. This is going to change. All these things change. But we always assume that that change is going to be like much more of a positive with all of these teams. Yeah. And I don't I think that's a mistake that we make. I am in the I think they keep the nucleus together and add around the fringes and try to get a deeper bench.

The fact that Peyton Watson didn't play, that was somebody that they were really counting on during the season and the playoffs. One of their bets was our young guys are going to fill in those Bruce Brown minutes. Didn't happen. Yeah, that's how they drafted too. The Porter series, his last four games, three for 12, three for nine, two for 10, two for four. They have nine rebounds today, but for the most part, it was not an awesome series. I honestly felt like they needed him. They needed...

When he, like in the Lakers series, he would have those little stretches where he would just kick ass for three minutes and they just didn't have that today. Yeah. I mean, it's worst game. They actually won. What you laid out. I think you're right. Is they'll add around the fringes, but it's just questions that I wouldn't have expected to ask because I think the bigger question for me is, was this the finals?

And if you're thinking like we just lost the finals, that's a different than we just lost around two, because I think these are the two best teams. And, you know, I'm not going to say either of those teams would have beaten Boston, but I think Boston is going to be underdogs against either of these teams. Unless Porzingis is a hundred percent, which I just, you know, he's already missing the first two to three games in round three at this point.

So, yeah, I'm just not going to look at this as like, Hey, the loser of the series couldn't get a, I thought they were good. They couldn't get out of the second round. I'm like, I don't know. I'm with you. Like when, when this, before it started, as the series is playing out, I was like, I almost feel like this is the finals. Like we're, we're not supposed to get a team or a matchup between two teams like this in the second round. With that said, it's a worse loss for Denver than it is for Minnesota. Cause Minnesota could have been like, Hey man, now we know what it takes. And sure. Whereas Denver's trying to protect the title. Um,

a winner, co-winners, Devante Graham and Victor Wambanyama, who actually affected the title because that Friday night game ends up sending Denver into the 2-3 round two. And they could have been in the one seed, get no Zion, New Orleans. They could have gotten Dallas in round two and not seen Minnesota maybe at all. And instead, um,

Devante Graham, who probably those are probably the last baskets he'll score in the NBA, I'm guessing. I think he could still score some points for somebody. I like the fact that Wembley affected the title. Loser, Michael Jordan. Okay. Yeah. How? Because at halftime, it's like, yeah, fucking, he was the latest comer, and I sucked in game seven. I'm still the GOAT. Now it's like, I don't know, MJ, you never won a title when you were 22. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I don't believe it. I'm just, I'm just throwing it out there. It's rarely you get to put a winners and losers with Michael Jordan in it, but now listen, no 22 year old other than 22 year old and under other than Colby, I'm pretty sure has won the title. Like Jordan didn't do it. LeBron didn't do it. Uh, I think Bill Russell did it. I don't know how old he was when they won the first title, but it was around 22, but this is

whole other level of, of historical shit. If Minnesota can actually win two more rounds, we'll see what happens. We mentioned towns as a winner, Chris Finch, emotional. He brought the crutches out. I don't know if you noticed, I felt like he was up off the bench a little bit more, but, uh, but him and Mike Norrie figuring out how to coach this team together in a really weird situation and pull off a game seven win in Denver. I think, I think co-winners for me.

Micah has enough... Yeah, he's so much credibility built up with this team just because of his personality and being around. But I still think it's a little overstated. I mean, Finch is sitting right there. Like, what do you think Micah's going to do? Yeah, but what do you think he's going to do? Can't argue with the refs? He argued with the refs. Can't pull Anthony Edwards over to talk to him during timeout, tell him to settle down. It's not nothing. It's way less than people made it out to be. He's right there. Do you think Micah's turning around going, hey, sorry, dude, you're sitting down. I've got this. Hey, could you...

Could you let it seem like I'm in charge just a little bit more? Why wouldn't the Lakers want Mike Noria as their coach? The only thing I can think of with their coaching search is that... It's being run by Kurt Rambis? No, that they're just going to want more sex appeal post-Vogel and Hamm. I mean, I think it should be Borrego, but I don't know if he's going to be sexy enough for them. If Borrego gets the job, are you going to be on the bench? No, I don't think so.

I don't... I have a hard... Second row Rosillo? I have a hard time getting credentials from the Lakers and the Clippers, so I don't think I would be on the bench. Look, I'm a huge Borrego fan. I've had him on the pot a couple times, but I just...

you know, for anyone that watched some of those Charlotte teams that were terrible. And then every night you'd be like, all right, which fourth quarters do I have to get on? Right. Cause it's a good way to rotate through league paths. You're like, all right, let me watch a full fourth quarter of this game that I wasn't normally going to watch start to finish. And they're just all these Charlotte games where I'm like, how are they in this game? How are they possibly in this game? And he's got the Spurs background. I hope he gets a chance to do it. I just don't know if, um,

You know what I kind of would like? I'd like to see JJ get it. For content? No, I think JJ could get it, but then it would be hilarious if they don't win enough and then he gets fired and LeBron on their podcast together says, you know, I actually never wanted you to be my head coach. They're drinking wine? Yeah. Kurt Rambis did that. And by the way, that's not a dig at JJ at all. I think you understand what I'm saying. Why are you worried about what JJ thinks? I think I'm booked to go on next week. Yeah.

Chris Finch mentioned him. Do we mention Team USA? No, no one's more on team. You're the most patriotic guy ever. You really are a patriot. Team USA standpoint, Steve Kerr is rooting for Denver to probably win, right? Because that means you're putting more miles on Murray heading into the Canada side of things. Ant gets pulled out of the playoffs. Now he could just devote himself to getting ready. Now this flips the other way. Murray has more time. Jokic has more time.

And it's going to be in the grind for at least two more weeks. I don't know. It could be good for you as team USA too. Nas Reed, big winner vindicated the six man of the year award. He was, he was huge. Those minutes for a monk or read. Uh, I voted for monk second. Um, I voted Nas first and he had the huge block on Jokic too. When it was up around the rim. I mean, the Nas minutes were incredible down the stretch.

I mean, it's just what a weapon to be able to go, hey, we need a third guy who can kind of balance out our other two bigs and could also stretch the floor. And it's incredible the job that Conley and this front office did of identifying him. So I have a winner for you. Can I make a Nas read point really quick and then give me your winner? Please. There's certain guys that

If you were in a coma for like 10 years and you came out of the coma and you watched a quarter of a basketball game and you saw a guy playing like Nas Reed played today and you would ask, like, is that one of the five best players in the league? Which is like its own weird NBA list of guys who for six minutes can seem like they're a second team all NBA player. Nas Reed is definitely on that list. If you catch Nas Reed for the right five minutes, he seems like he's just like, I don't know, a five time all star.

And by the way, correction on me. I knew as soon as I said it, he was there before. So it was Gerson. What was your winner? Lawyers. How come? Lawyer fees for the Mark Laurie A-Rod Taylor fight. Oh, that's now going into round three. Yeah. They showed A-Rod a couple of times. There's nothing more A-Rod than, I guess it's actually strategically like the right move.

is if you're in this battle for this team that apparently you couldn't pay for although it seems pretty nasty how it all went down and it feels a bit like taylor was like hey we're this good well i don't want to sell it i don't know so look i've read everything on it and it's it's it did make me laugh a bit that i was like there's nothing more a-rod than just showing up and sitting courtside for all this stuff when it's in dispute but that's actually probably the move

that you do it. And here we have both teams in the Western Conference finals. Because to think of Cuban, of the time he sells it, where I still can't quite figure that one out either. Like, wait, he sold his team? Makes no sense. Well, A-Rod's still a pretty big minority owner. Yeah, you're right. It's not like he doesn't- I'm being unfair. I'm being totally unfair. No, it's just weird. I don't think you're being unfair at all, because it's still weird to see him there when it's, every time you see him, you're like, oh, lawsuit.

Legal fight. It's just like the reaction. I think it would be way more fun if he hadn't won the 2009. I mean, every part of life would be more fun if he hadn't won the 2009 World Series and the Yankees hadn't won that year because then we would be able to do the whole the Yankees haven't really won this century unless you count 2000 as a year of this century, which is a big point of dispute, right? Some people think 2000 is part of the 20th century because it's the last year of the 20th century. Other people say

the new century starts with 2000. I don't know if you have an opinion on this. No, I remember though, a manager came into me to make fun of the Red Sox, like after the Red Sox had won their fourth one or something. Yeah.

And he was a Yankee fan and he like came in during a commercial break to go like, oh my God, he's like, I can't believe because everybody knew I wasn't like weird about it anymore. And he started like making fun of the Red Sox. And I was like, do you really think you should be doing that anymore? Like after 04? I was like, you still do stuff like this to people that are Red Sox guys? And it was just like,

very terse in one of the ways that I can deliver a rebuttal to something. And then he kind of just left the studio and guys were like, that was kind of rude. I was like, sorry. Mike Conley, winner? Big time. Only made one conference finals that got swept by my calculations. Now he's back. Happy for him. Minnesota has a slew of I'm happy for you people. I'm even happy for Rudy Gobert. Yeah. Good for Rudy. Good for Kat. Good for those guys.

Any other winners and losers? Do you think Denver fans saw this coming at halftime? No. I don't think they had any conceivable knowledge that that was coming. You want a stat? This is from Dave McMiniman. So Ant finishes with four points at the half. Minnesota this season, regular season and playoffs combined, is now 8-1 when Ant has less than five points in the first half of the game. Why is that? Balance, defense, things we saw tonight.

Second half ant, but we didn't really get it. I mean, I know he had nine in the third quarter and then the dunk in the three, but that's crazy. Let's take one more break. We'll talk about Minnesota Dallas. This episode is supported by State Farm. If you've ever been in an accident and you're okay, but you know what happened, your first reaction is going to be, man, why did that happen? If you ever buy a new house or a new car or a new anything,

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All right, Minnesota-Dallas, round three. If you're running the NBA, is this more exciting to you than Denver-Dallas? Would you rather have Ant in there or would you rather have Jokic going for a repeat? Just from a narrative standpoint. Probably the runway that's in front of Ant of like, could he actually do this? Yeah. Okay, years before you're supposed to really do this. We're supposed to go through a phase of when first takes leading the show going, I thought this guy was good. Yeah. Yeah.

That's usually the way it works. You have to be everybody's favorite. Absurd approval rating. So yeah, I think the ant part of this is the bigger payoff for the NBA than the Denver-Jokic storylines. Ant-first Luka's... I agree with you. Ant-first Luka is incredible. Boston-Indiana, maybe not the same sweeping, high-ceiling stakes. But I also like the fact that this is...

just a really cool basketball matchup. Like you mentioned earlier, Minnesota doesn't totally have the perfect person to guard Luca, not that other teams do, but they don't have that prototypical six, seven, six, eight, six, nine guy with some size and a little bit of strength to be able to stay with them or like a Ludo type. There's nobody really on the, like, I think McDaniels is probably too small for him. You agree? Yeah.

I just think he's a little too small. But here's the thing. As much as Dort is the absolute prototype of the guy that you would want if Dort were actually even taller, great, creative player type of thing, whenever I start looking at matchups, they'll have somebody for this guy. It doesn't matter. They all end up with 30, 10, and 10 anyway. They just do. Kyrie's a better matchup for them, I think.

Because they had just a bunch of people to throw at him and frustrate him. They also have size to throw out for those corner threes. They have bigger guys that can come over and try to contest. And they have some real size, unlike what Dallas went against in that OKC series. So who do you think is favorite, if you had to guess? I think Minnesota is. Because game one is in Minnesota, which means game seven will also be in Minnesota. So for the series, Minnesota minus 172.

Which seems high to me. Really? I would have thought it would be in the minus 140 to minus 150 range. The regular season stuff. Especially the way Dallas looked. Minnesota won the season series 3-1. But, I mean, you go through it. Luka missed two of the games. Kyrie missed three. And all four of the games were before the trade deadline. So, not sure what that means. Do you think the Celtics are a minus or a plus favorite to win the title right now?

I think they're probably a minus because I swear every year the models overvalue Boston so much. Boston, minus 165 on FanDuel. Minnesota's plus 290. Dallas, 5-1. Indy's 25-1 if you're feeling long shots. Yeah, that's the other part of it too. You're not going up against Dallas and Minnesota in the Eastern Conference Finals. Celtics, Minnesota, now minus 145. All right, so going forward. Well, first of all, who do you think is going to win Minnesota-Dallas? I'm going to pick Minnesota.

Explain. You? I'm really impressed with Dallas, you know, and I know this kind of turns into, well, I'm, you know, I'm further along with Dallas and going like, all right, you know, before the playoffs started, I'd be like, all right, well, I'm not going to pick Dallas. I'm just really impressed with everything from them. But it's a completely different challenge as opposed to the Jalen Williams rotation here. Completely different challenge. And...

I still think that they should have done a better job of getting past the first line of defense and then attacking Jokic more. I think that'd be one of the things. I mean, it won't matter now, but if they had lost, that'd be something if you're the coaching staff, being like, hey, there might have been more there. But yeah, I just like Minnesota better. I like their depth better. I like their defense better. But Dallas' defense was incredible against OKC. I mean, they shut down a really good offensive team. So I want to be respectful about my pick because I'm at a place now with Dallas that I just didn't expect to be with. You? Yeah.

I think the line should be lower, but I would pick Minnesota because I really felt like that Minnesota-Denver series at some point turned into whoever wins this is probably the team I think should win the title. I don't think that means they will win the title, but if you told me Porzingis was 100% right now, I'd really rethink it because you and I both watch every minute of both those Minnesota-Boston games.

And those games are really close and really good. And the teams were, I thought, neck and neck with each other. And I remember, I think even saying it on the podcast, like, fuck man, if it's Minnesota in the finals, that's a really bad matchup for the Celtics. They have wings and size to throw on Tatum and Brown. And I just don't love the matchup. Now with Porzingis up in the air, I like it even less. So I think Minnesota right now is in the driver's seat for Minnesota.

The title doesn't mean they're going to win, but they know they have home court this round and then they know they can play with Boston. And if you're Boston, you just have to figure out how to get Porzingis back, but then also get him back so that he could play at the pace that you're going to have to play to against that Minnesota team, right? The athleticism and speed that they have, if he's like 75, 80%, that's going to look pretty awful. So yeah, I would lean Minnesota right now.

I've never been to Minnesota, by the way, Russo. I'm sure you've been, right? No, just the airport a million times. I've never actually gotten out of the airport and walked around Minneapolis. I've never been. You think A-Rod will bring you? Like you, A-Rod, and Lori just sitting courtside? I haven't reached out. I haven't. I have a friend that really likes him. It's not Big Cat. Swears by him. Can I give you a couple other things before we go? Did you see the Usyk fight last night? No. Usyk beat...

Yeah. Tyson Fury. And it was unbelievable. Usyk, like, I think he's my, he's my favorite heavyweight in a while. First of all, to go from cruiserweight to heavyweight is just ridiculous. I don't think people get enough credit when they do that. Holyfield did it too.

But just the set, because once you get to like cruiserweight, then the divisions just become like these giant weight swings, right? You could go from fighting like a 195 guy to fighting like a 275 guy. Like there's no other jump like that. And it looked like Fury was going to just lean on him and beat him down. And he was starting to tag him with the little uppercuts and little overhands. And Usyk just flipped it. And he just has a way of like,

There's certain fighters that were always able to do this. Cesar Chavez was like that. Hopkins was like that. As the fight goes along, they kind of figure out the opponent and the little angles. It was really good. I think you'd like it. You should watch it. Yeah, I'll check it out. It's been tough for me with the schedule to add that to it. Was it after Dallas' win last night? No, it was before. It was. Because it was in Saudi Arabia.

You've been to Saudi Arabia? Undisputed. I have not. It was an undisputed. Any desire? Seems far. It does seem far. Yeah. It seems like a lot of work. Like I was thinking like the, a lot of work countries. It's not on my list. I've like, I really want to go to Australia at some point, but that's 19 hours from here, 17 hours or something. New Zealand was, I mean, I'm going to do it again. I didn't even think about it. I mean, it was 12, 13 hours or maybe it was 11 on the way back. But yeah,

You know, you can probably afford at least first class. So I hope so. Yeah, I would. You got to do it. It's if New Zealand or Australia, which I imagine is just as great as New Zealand is like I've told everybody after my New Zealand thing, I just went, you know, it's actually great that it's that far away because if it were five hours away, people from California would just ruin it.

And it's so far away that there's just a hesitation. It's actually worth to get there. Yeah, I used to be weird about flights. Like over five hours, I'm like, nope. But then it's like, okay, so what are you going to do? Never see any of these places. Saudi Arabia, though, based on your research, I would agree. I think it's pretty far. I want to go. I want to check out the NBL. Maybe a little Australian Open.

Who's ball break his bowl? What's the guy's name who's going to go first in the draft? Alex Saar? Saar, yeah. Who's averaging nine points a game in the NBL? Defensive ceiling is off the charts. Did you decide yet whether you're going to get into this draft or not? Here's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to talk about it until I'm ready, and then that'll just be like draft week. That's what I've decided to do.

So I'm not like somebody KOC asked me to come on. He's like, can you come on? I was like, I haven't watched anybody, but there's no way I'm not going to, there's no way I'm not going to, but I'm just not going to start doing draft content way out. Right. So I'm going to do it just because I like, you know, figuring out who you were right about, who you were wrong about based on watching them. Like that's part of the story of all of these classes, all of these players that are playing now, like I've gone back and, you know, I would say,

I don't know how many years I started doing it at ESPN, but I was doing it before that in Boston. And it was just a cool way of like seeing the past of like, oh my God, that guy was awful. And now look at him. Like I remember doing the Rudy Gobert stuff and watching him as a prospect going, my God, like he can't.

he can't walk like he looks like a deer on ice yeah yeah and then to what he's turned himself into so i'll i'll just be too interested in breaking down and like looking at guys but i don't think i'm going to be anybody's go-to that's for sure this is my favorite part of the draft process now because i know nothing but then we're also at the pump each guy up thing where there was like the split screen of reed shepherd shooting stats compared to steph curry with his measurables

I saw that one where they're like, they're both six, three. They both shot threes really well. And it's like the side by side. I'm like, oh, we're here already. Cool. It'd be great. James is like Davion Mitchell. Oh, all right. We're going to do this. I enjoy it. As bad as it is at the top. And it is that bad. And teams were talking about this draft, like two years out going, dude, 24 is going to be awesome. Yeah. And yeah,

It doesn't mean that all 30 guys that go in the first, like there'll be a couple guys that are going to make all-star teams. Like it's just what's going to happen. But to hope to get the number one pick and then land on it this year, it's, it's just like, I hope ESPN's broadcast, they should have a rule. Be like, you can't do player comps of anybody awesome yet.

It's it has to be no all NBA or higher player cups. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great. It has to be like, he reminds me of Kevin Herter and that's it. Kevin Herter is like the ceiling. I texted somebody on one team cause I noticed they had a first round pick. Yeah. And I was like, how the fuck do you guys have a pick in this draft? Why didn't you trade? And he's like, you think we want to pick this draft? Like texted me back. You think we wanted to keep our pick? Yeah.

Stick it personally. It's like you've been picking that. Like the Knicks have 24 and 25. Like they might as well set those on fire or just take guys they can stash or something. That'd be hilarious if they start doing stashing all the way down. And then the Bronny James stuff, I actually feel bad for him at this point. But people click on it. People click on it. So, you know, unfortunately, that's the game. And I would add this, though. Like when I asked...

the SC guys that I knew, like, hey, what did you think of him? They loved him. And he's an awesome guy. Yeah. And there were a few teams that loved him in the interviews. So that's something. Six one and a half is tough if you're not a pure point guard, because then you basically have to be Davion Mitchell. And Davion Mitchell plays 15 minutes a game for the Kings. And that's the best case scenario of being Davion Mitchell is to actually be Davion Mitchell.

And Davion Mitchell was an awesome college player. Right. And he was like a haunting defensive player. Right. He was, I'm actually surprised he's not a better pro and I would be trying to trade for him if I was a GM because I actually think there's a world where he could be in a better spot. But if you're going to compare Bronny to Davion Mitchell, that gets tough because he just doesn't have the track record yet. I wish he would go back to school. I think he, I think it's a clear case of go back

put in one more really good year in college and then come out. But he clearly just wants to come out and somebody would probably draft him. Yeah. I bet he gets drafted. Yeah. Cause the draft is that bad. Like once you get into the forties and fifties, why not? Um, yeah, it's a weird one. Cause I usually love the draft and, um, I love all the plots with it. And there's some times when you think like somebody can really help their team, but

And you see like the Spurs with four and eight and it's like, they should be able to get two guys that could really help them. We know what they need. They need creators. They need connectors. They need shooters. And it's like, I don't even know if they can get those guys at four and eight. Like, can you just find somebody who can throw Wemby an entry pass? Yeah. Can you find somebody who can run a pick and roll with them? Is that even possible at number four or number eight? Cause take that guy. It would have been even weirder too, if they had gotten the first or second pick, you know, what if they've gotten the first pick? Are they taking Saar?

Like that doesn't really seem to make a ton of sense. Well, you know your theory how you would keep taking quarterbacks over and over again until you hit one? I'm also wondering if the Spurs should do that at four and eight, just take two creator point guards and hope one of them's good. Like maybe they just take both Kentucky guys. Like maybe one of them will be good. That's not a terrible theory based on my limited... Because I know Castle's being spun as a point guard right now for UConn. And I'm like, well...

It's not, you know, maybe it was because there were other players there and apparently, you know, they were like, hey, if you go back to his high school stuff and all that, but I haven't, I haven't done any of those things. I mean, he's incredible defensively and maybe he's still young enough to be able to give you some kind of offense. But I mean, this is the kind of player, like you're talking about going three, four or five. I'm like, dude, it's pretty rough. What else? So now we're down to one basketball game. What a basketball game a day. What else? So

It's time for you to throw yourself into some sort of dopey side theory if it's not the draft. Is it maybe sci-fi content? No, I don't have that. Eric Larson's got a new book out, though, I'm pretty excited about. I already forgot the title, but I did buy it. New Shane Gillis show comes out Thursday? Tires? It's Shane Gillis. You know I'm giving it a chance. You? Oh, of course. Wait, I just started. Go ahead. I really miss having a TV show.

that I'm just like out of my mind, excited to watch every week. It's been a while. It feels like we're moving into this different era of prestige. We've been talking about it, trying to figure out how to do the prestige TV podcast differently because if there's no prestige TV shows, do we have to just cover TV differently? Do you cover stuff like tires? Do you just actually do a podcast about that? Are you thinking about covering tires with a prestige pod? The bigger question is what is the prestige pod if there's no...

Prestige. Mad Men, White Lotus, succession type shows. What do we do with the Prestige pod? Do we morph it into kind of a slightly broader TV podcast? Because some of these shows get mad, like that Baby Reindeer, which we did a podcast about, but that got fucking massive viewership. And it seems like the model's kind of moving that way towards shows like that versus like the old school shows that are trying to be Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad.

quicker shows. Did you, I'm trying to think, wasn't there something that recently, didn't Shogun get the treatment? Shogun did. People like Shogun. I like Shogun. Yeah. But I don't think, I don't think people were like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos or Shogun. Probably not. But people like Shogun. Shogun's good. House of the Dragon, people will care about. Yeah. That's right around the corner, right? That's next month. Yeah. People care about that. I don't know. I just, I'm already nostalgic for that 10 years ago era.

Like just some of the, like the greatest shit. It's just not going to happen anymore. All right. We're going to wrap it up. We're still up. Great to see you. I can't believe Minnesota did it. I, what a series. They win the first two. It seems like they're headed for historical greatness. Denver comes back, wins the next two. Jokic game five has one of the great playoff games.

We go back to Minnesota. Minnesota wins by 130 points. Then we go back to Denver for game seven. Minnesota's up 15 and a half time. And then Minnesota turns into demons again and they win. And now we have Minnesota-Dallas. What a rollercoaster. I still can't believe it. I can't believe it. I can't believe it actually happened. I'll see you in a week. Sounds good. Thanks to Kyle Crate and Steve Cerutti, as always, for producing. And I think I'll see you on Tuesday. I want to see them on a wayside

I'm a princess