Luka’s Revenge, NFL QB Roulette, and Tales from 'White Lotus' With Sheil Kapadia and Dave Bernad
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The Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. I am recording this right after Lakers Mavs, just the very top here. Four things I wanted to hit coming off that game. Number one, the Luka Doncic trade is now kind of seeming stupid for Dallas. Oh wait, it was stupid immediately when it happened. This is just a disaster. I can't believe Nico Harrison actually went to the game.

Like they weren't going to chant thank you, Nico, at him for two and a half hours. If I was him, I would have pretended to have COVID, the flu, bronchitis. I don't know what, but I would not have wanted to be in the building. That's just nuts. All right. Three actual takeaways. One,

This is already the best rivalry in the NBA. I'm the most interested in every Lakers-Mavericks game from now on. We didn't even have Anthony Davis tonight. We didn't have Gafford. We didn't have Lively. There's going to be a version of this game, at least for this season and next season, I would guess, where you have this big Mavericks team with a bunch of size, and then you have this weird Lakers team that's kind of playing small, but they're not small because their frontcourt has 800 pounds of guys. Then Luka trying to get revenge against his

his old team and just a lot of different storylines that I think are great. I, we had this in the two thousands, the seeds of it when Shaq went to Miami, but Kobe's Lakers team wasn't good enough.

We had the seeds of it when Durant went to Golden State in 2016. And then there was going to be an OKC-Golden State rivalry. But Golden State was just way better than OKC. This has a chance to be a really fun back and forth. Every time they play, it's going to be a fun game like the one tonight. And I'm looking forward to it. I would say for the rest of the 2020s,

This is our best bet for an awesome NBA rivalry. Like Boston, Cleveland, maybe that'll get there. I doubt we're going to have all the storylines and the baggage that this one has. I don't know, Minnesota, OKC. Sure, SGA, Anthony Edwards, that'll be great. Can't wait to watch those guys battle, but it's not going to have the baggage in the history of this rivalry. So depending on how long LeBron is able to play at this level, this is the best we're going to do. Could we get this as a 2-7 matchup?

in the NBA playoffs. So Lakers right now, 35 and 21. Two seed is conceivable for them. Dallas right now is the eight seed. There's a bunch of teams tied in between seven and 10. They're getting some guys back soon.

If you want to get good ratings, NBA, I would rig a 2-7 Lakers-Dallas, I think would be the way to do it. Anyway, this is an awesome rivalry. That was my first takeaway tonight watching this where I'm just like, this is must watch TV every time these two guys, two teams play. Second one is the Lakers who Raseel and I talked about on Sunday night. I think they're a wildcard contender. They're not one of the four contenders to win the title, but they might be fifth.

And they're definitely the, I don't know what the ceiling is of this team yet. They're 15 and four in their last 19. Now they've been top five net the whole time. Rui at center, which, you know, they've, they've done from time to time when AD was out, but they're doing it by necessity now because the Mark Williams trade got canceled last

He's a little Carl Anthony Towns this year at times. And I mean that in a good way. Like he's got size, he's got, he could stretch the floor. And he's just big enough that he can push against a post-up player. Not the, you know, not a rim protector, neither as Towns. But when you watch them and it's their crunch time today, and I think their crunch time just going forward, Reeves as the point guard, even though he's not a point guard, Ruby is the center, even though he's not a center.

And then LeBron and Luka and Finney Smith as the wings. And they're all just really smart basketball players who can kind of fill in the blanks and not totally get burned. The rim protection is not going to be perfect. There's going to be guards like Kyrie tonight that they're just not going to be able to stay in front of unless it's a team defensive concept. I think it works. I'm bullish on this Lakers team as a contender. Everyone's like, oh, you hate the Lakers. You hate the Lakers.

When the Lakers are good, I'm going to admit it. We were admitting it. We were doing pods all the way up until COVID happened in the 2019-20 season saying the Lakers Clippers are the two best teams. I think the Lakers are a legit contender. And, you know, I think they can get away with these goofy lineups because they're really well coached and their best two players are really smart and know where to go and what to do. So that's my second takeaway. Ironically, Luka is not in any of my big three takeaways because we know how talented he is. We know how good he is.

And, you know, it was interesting. You would have bet, like if you were betting on FanDuel, you're doing like the same game. They had the parlay boost token. The obvious bet would have been, oh, Luka, revenge, points. And it never works out that way. He just did the classic other version of a Luka game where he filled out every part of the box score, got a triple-double. But, you know, he did not have the 40-point game, which I think when you think about revenge...

It wasn't what we saw tonight, but he played a really smart offensive game and really controlled it and did a lot of good stuff. But that leads to the third thing. Watching LeBron reinvent himself on the fly, and I think this is his 22nd NBA season at age 40, when we thought we had seen every version of whatever was happening with him, I didn't think he ever had a chance to compete for a title again.

And almost immediately he has figured out how to kind of coexist with Luca, how to let Luca have the ball way more than we've ever seen LeBron be comfortable with, with a teammate since 2011 Miami. Playing off the ball and figuring out how to affect the game in all these different ways. And then when he gets the ball, doing LeBron things.

This is a hybrid of 2011 Miami that first year when it was still Wade's team and he was kind of easing his way into it. He was still getting his stats, but there was a lot of time when Wade was cooking because Wade was one of the three best players in the league.

And he's deferring to, to Luke, at least what we've seen so far while also trying to figure out all these different ways to fit in. Like he'll get like these sneaky offensive rebounds. He only had two assists today because he didn't have the ball that much, but he still ended up with, you know, I think he had 25 and 12, got some big rebounds. Um, and then defensively,

The first, what, two months of the season, he was just atrocious defensively and all the advanced metrics backed it up. And he's been way more active. And I'm just really impressed. The defense, the rebounding and the off the ball stuff is about as high level as it gets. We were working on the ringer 100 stuff. And, you know, after the second month of the season, I didn't think there was any case for him to be a top 25 player anymore.

I don't think there's nine players playing better than him right now. Like you go Jokic, SGA, Giannis, Tatum, those four. Luka from a pedigree has to be still a top 10 player. Mitchell, Brunson, Edwards. And then it's LeBron and Cade are probably the 10 best players in the league right now. There's been some injuries. We've lost some guys. But LeBron has to be in the top 10. And I think he's a second team all NBA guy the way this is going. He's been awesome.

And, you know, at this point in his career, when he's done pretty much everything you could do and we see a lot of the old superstars, Doug Collins always used to talk about how hard it is to coach an old superstar. He seems like he's completely bought into, hey, we might actually have a chance to win. What do I have to do? It doesn't seem like there's a lot of ego stuff, which you see with a lot of older players. Just how do I fit in? How do we win? How can I chip in?

It's really interesting to watch. And I'm taking the Lakers seriously. So those are my big takeaways from Lakers Mavs. We have a lot more on the podcast coming up. Hey, don't leave the podcast now. I still got football and White Lotus for you next. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. And this episode is brought to you by Intuit TurboTax. Didn't file a TurboTax last year? That's in the past. Now taxes...

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Must start and file your own taxes in app by February 28th. Excludes TurboTax live full terms at TurboTax.com. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a brand new rewatchables on Monday night. Me and Van Lathan and Joanna Robinson did Crash, the 2006 Oscar winner. It's the 20th anniversary of that movie. Um,

We rarely do this on the rewatchables where we just bring a movie on just so we can pick nets with it for an hour and a half and make fun of it and do a whole bunch of things. I had a really good time. I thought this was a very entertaining episode. Every once in a while, we just got to do this to keep the muscles fresh. Anyway, you can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify. You can go to the Ringer Movies YouTube channel and watch it there as well. You can get all the videos and clips from this podcast.

on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And then last but not least, Celtic City on HBO, Sunday night, March 3rd, HBO Max. It's going to be once a week. It's nine episodes. It's one of the coolest projects I've been involved with and I'm really psyched for everybody to watch it. So,

Mark it down. I know there's a lot of good TV on these days, but mark down a Celtic city. It's coming. I'll talk more about it on Thursday's podcast coming up for the rest of this podcast. She'll Kapati and I are going to talk about the quarterback situation in the NFL right now. A lot of teams that need one, a lot of teams that can't find one, some guys that might be moving teams, some top 10, possibly top five, possibly top three quarterback prospects.

that are gonna make the draft more interesting. So we're gonna cover all of that. And then my friend Dave Barnett is gonna come on, who is an EP of White Lotus and has been a producer for a long time. His story's interesting. His story's about White Lotus and just like what it's like when you see somebody as an executive producer of a scripted TV show. What is that job? What do they do? We're gonna dive into all of it. I promise you're gonna like it. So that is what's happening. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. ♪

All right, Gio Capati from the Ringer is here. A roller coaster ride of a month for him. The Eagles win the Super Bowl in about as convincing a fashion as we've had in a while. And then on the flip side, the Sixers have spiraled into a fiery pit of hell. Do you care? Does anyone in Philly even care about the Sixers right now?

A little bit, but you can't wipe the smiles off everyone's faces. It usually just goes back to the Eagles and the Super Bowl and then rooting now for the Sixers to just hold on to that pick, one through six. I think that's what it's returned to here. Yeah, it's going to be if they end up in the sixth spot and it's a top six protected pick.

And you're just holding your finger, your fingers crossed that nobody leapfrogs them. I think ending up at seven after how devastated the season would have been is was that that would be an all timer. The Eagles thing. I'm still kicking myself for not picking them. I have so many regrets. I talked to you that first week of before we got into the Super Bowl week. I'm like, I'm taking the Eagles. I'm taking them. I really think they have a better team. And then by Wednesday, the Mahomes Kool-Aid had washed over me and the fear of just being

being wrong and having my home like, God, I, and it just, that was it. That was the only reason I'm never doing that again. If all the evidence is on one team like that, I'm just never doing that again. I'm never buying into this whole amorphous. Well, you got to do it. They win all the time. This is the stupidest thing you can do. And why did we do it?

I picked the Eagles. No, I know you did. I'm saying the Alderman Holmes pickers. It came down to, yes, great quarterback versus great team. And I think we knew the Eagles had the better team, numbers two through 53.

I don't think I don't know anybody that picked the Eagles to blow them out in that fashion, though, the way they did. So, yeah, no one no one does that to the Chiefs. I mean, really, it was an all time performance. And that's why everybody still anywhere you go still has the Eagles gear on and is not ready to turn the page to any of the other teams right now. So all the Eagles fans have told me the Pat Super Bowl because it was the first one of this of two generations, basically, was a more emotional, better one. But this was

in a lot of ways, more satisfying. Especially the Jalen Hurts piece of it, which I think as we get away from that game and, you know, the days pass and it's just, weren't really sure what you had with that guy. And then he was really awesome. I was watching some of the inside the NFL type stuff after that game. He was just great in that game. I mean, that's one of the better QB performances. So going forward, you know, for the money you're paying,

All right. It's like, all right, we can win the Super Bowl with this guy. This is good. What is the shelf life for the Seagulls team with all the stuff they've done with the cap? Because I know they were maneuvering and getting a little creative, but at some point that runs out, right? Yeah. I think you and I talked about quarterback analysis before and has it gone too far where now we don't care as much if the guy is winning. It's more about the film and the analytics. And Hurts has kind of been a throwback where

All season long, I know we had conversations. It's like, all right, it's a little up and down. And then the two biggest games of the year, he comes through and is fantastic in the NFC Championship game and the Super Bowl. So I'm with you. I think it changed his sort of his legacy and the way he's viewed, at least locally, but also nationally. And in terms of the window, they're in a good spot. You mentioned it 2017. It was like that was magical for everyone because they had never done it before. This feels like it's built to last.

They've got young guys in the secondary. They've got young defensive linemen. They're going to bring back 10 of 11 starters, at least on offense. And so, yeah, they're in a very good spot where I would expect this. You never know if you get to another one or win another one. But the window is more open than it was, I think, the last time they won one.

Yeah, you figure it's four or five years for the window. That was certainly the Pats had three different windows during the Brady era. And, you know, as we've discussed in the past, all of them hinge on if you can nail a couple of drafts in a row, which is the Eagles did that. They're probably the best example of that, the drafts that they had the last couple of years. And then looking out with like that linebacker who now is going to become one of the top free agents, like a couple of really shrewd signings where you pay

X amount for somebody. And then he turns out to be an A-lister. It's really impressive. You don't think there's an unexpected trade with them though, right? Like there's no, hey, here's the time to trade A.J. Brown right now for draft capital so we can get it. Like they're going to do anything crazy. I don't think they're going to trade a core player if there's an unexpected trade.

If Miles Garrett gets dealt and it's a position of need and you say, hey, we're not going to be drafting high in the next couple of years anyway, and this is a premium position, an elite player to add to the best defense in the NFL, that to me would be a Howie Roseman move. I don't know that it's going to happen, but when I look at the list of teams that I would say I could actually see them giving up a haul for Miles Garrett, I would put them on that list of two or three teams. You don't think Parsons gets into play this year, right?

I think this is the Cowboys being the Cowboys. Let's get ourselves in the headlines for three months over some nonsense, and then we'll end up making him the highest paid defensive player in NFL history. I don't know how you take yourself seriously and trade a generational defensive player like that. But I guess who knows? Well, it's the thing where...

You've already committed to these other guys money-wise. And it's almost like you've made the mistake of doing that. And now you compound the mistake by doing the second thing. It's almost like the Embiid extension the Sixers did. Where it's like, well, we're all in. Okay, here's the extension. And you're just making things worse. So Eagles plus 650 on FanDuel to win the Super Bowl again. They're the favorites. KC 701, which I thought was ambitious because that's an aging team.

In a lot of respects, I don't know. They have the same offensive line problems that half the league has. It can't be like, well, we need a left tackle. Well, cool. 15 teams need a left tackle. Kelsey, don't even know if he's coming back or not. I thought that was pretty ambitious to have them tied with the Ravens. The Ravens are 7-1-2. I probably would have had the Ravens as the favorite coming out of the AFC. Detroit's down to 9-1. San Francisco's 12-1.

Buffalo plus 750. And then we get into some intriguing teams. When you go into like the longer shot odds, like Texans 28 to one kind of jumped out to me. A whiff Vikings 32 to one. If you, you can make a case for McCarthy to be good next year, but they have a lot of cap space too. Thought that was interesting. And then, um,

Really nobody. Is there anybody else you were thinking long shot wise that you're like, I want to see what happens with their draft and free agency and there might be value now? The Packers you didn't mention in there, I don't think. Did I miss the Packers? I might have missed the Packers. 21-1 Packers. Okay. Yeah. Like they're a team that I think just had sort of a weird year where I think there is a path to them being in the mix and being really good next year. Well, they're trying to ban the tush push. So they're already like getting on it right now. Yeah.

That has made Eagles fans much more angry than anything the Sixers are doing. They've turned their wrath to the Packers and are like, those losers, they want to ban this play that they can't stop. So that's interesting. And then I think a team that we'll get to here and talk about quite a bit, the Rams. We don't know what they're going to do, but if you look at sort of the Eagles Super Bowl path, who was the one team that really played them tough

in the snow and it came down to the final possession, it was the Rams. And you can really look at the Rams the last two years and be like, if you played every season out 10 times, there's definitely a scenario where I think they get to the Superbowl each of the last two seasons. So they're another team that stands out to me a little bit as well. They are so fucked up. Everybody who was going against the Eagles the last two rounds, because they really came on like a freight train in that Rams in the Rams Eagles game.

And that was the worst the Eagles looked the whole playoffs just for, you know, that fourth quarter. I brought you on to do a little quarterback roulette. Usually teams, we go into the off season and teams need quarterbacks, but it feels like it's an unusual amount of this could go this way. This could go this way. This could go this way. I wanted to go through all the scenarios, but we should start with the Rams before we go through the draft pick teams. The Rams, they have Stafford. They have the 26th pick.

They have 44.3 million in cap space. There's some weird Stafford stuff where if they trade him, they take a massive cap hit for this season, right? They save like 4 million bucks, something like that. But long-term, dead cap 45.3 and they would save 4.3. The new team that takes him, he'd count for 27 million, 4 million guaranteed this year and 31 million next year. Is it realistic to you that he gets traded? We don't usually see this.

with a team trading an expensive quarterback and taking cap hit, and then another team absorbing a big contract. Do you see him getting traded? I think it's the biggest story in the NFL right now. It's the biggest domino to fall. And I think it really goes back to last offseason where they were at ahead, Matthew Stafford and the Rams, with this contract. And ultimately, the Rams gave in a little bit. It didn't happen, I think, until like the

first day of training camp where finally they came to an agreement, but it's pretty clear that Matthew Stafford wants to cash in and feels like all this big quarterback money that's getting paid out there. He feels like he's playing better than those guys. And I think Peter Schrager threw out $50 million per year and

is what he's seeking. So this isn't just like a new thing that's cropped. That's what makes me think there's some legs to it and he could get traded. Now, having said that- Well, hold on on the $50 million a year because that's, Tua's making that and Hertz is making that. So if I'm Matthew Stafford, I'm like, I'm worth $50 million a year. Look at that guy and that guy. Yeah, and even last year, Kirk Cousins, off an Achilles, similar age, got $46.5 million per year. So I get that aspect of it and I get the aspect of the Rams saying, dude, you're going to be 37 years old

We've paid you a lot of money over the years. You're under contract. We can't commit to like three more years of Matthew Stafford because we just watched Kirk Cousins and Aaron Rodgers and old quarterbacks around the NFL. When the cliff comes, it comes pretty quickly. So I think that's what this is about with the two sides. And so...

I don't know. They've given Stafford and his agent permission. Hey, go negotiate with other teams. See what you can get. And then the Rams can decide, hey, is that compensation worth it? I think what's going to happen is everyone's going to take a deep breath and the Rams are going to say, we are a good team with Matthew Stafford. We have a chance to make noise in the playoffs. We want him back.

And Stafford's going to say, do I want to go chase something with the New York giant? It's not going to be as good of a situation wherever he goes. And if he's thinking, hey, I want to win. I want to have that Hall of Fame resume. Maybe when my career is over, there's no better situation than Los Angeles. So if I'm making a prediction, it's that eventually they reach some type of agreement and he's back with the Rams. But given that it's the second year in a row and there could be hurt feelings and it could get personal, all those things, you never know.

Well, and there's a lot of posturing through the press, which always makes me suspicious. The more posturing publicly, the more I usually think this is just people rolling up their sleeves, showing some biceps, but nothing's actually going to happen. I looked at all the scenarios for trade teams for him and people were mentioning the Giants. Like you said, I have no idea why he'd want to do that here. He took an insane amount of punishment when he was on the Lions the first half of his career, right? He's 37.

I also think Kyle turned the TikTok camera on. I think,

I was thinking about how LeBron and Brady have ruined our perspective with guys in their late thirties to the point now that like LeBron looks great. I think LeBron might be a second team all NBA guy at this point, the way he's playing in the way and how much he's, uh, he's invested in defense, especially the last month and a half where he's, he's been one of the top 10 guys in the league for two months now. And then you have Brady playing until he's 45, but there's really no other examples of

You go like, oh, look at Chris Paul. He's still doing really well in the Spurs. Like, yeah, he's 10 and eight, you know? I just, I would be so nervous with the Stafford thing. So if I'm the Giants, I'm not trading a third pick for him. Maybe it's like the third for the Rams have the 26 for the 26 in Stafford. And then I'm using all my cap space for Stafford. Where am I going? I'm going to be like, I'm in the same division as the Eagles. What, how does that make me better? The only team I think makes sense is the Raiders.

The Raiders have almost a hundred million in cap space. They have Carol. They have some blue chippers on both sides. I don't think it's inconceivable that they could be pretty good next year if they had Stafford and then, you know, didn't give up the six pick in the trade. Is there any other team? Do you like that Raiders fit for him? We are 100% on the same page. Can we just pour cold water on the Giants thing a little bit more for a second? I'm with you. They stink.

This is one of the dumbest ideas. Like, like they would be just making a desperate move to save their jobs. And all of a sudden Matthew Stafford's going to go across the country at 37 years old and they're going to rebuild their offensive line and they're going to add more pass catching help. And they're going to improve a defense that was bottom five in the NFL and Stafford's going to look as good as,

without Sean McVay. All those things are going to happen. And this is going to work out beautifully for the cold weather. Give me the Eagles twice a week or twice a year and Parsons twice a year. Come on. And Washington. Come on. Thank you. Terrible idea. So we're on the same page there. I thought I was going to surprise you with the Raiders is my wild card room. That's the one I can see because I can see Tom Brady go like you just said, dude, Matthew, come here. I can show you some ways.

to stay healthy, extend your career. You are one of the smartest quarterbacks in the NFL. I don't want these young guys. They're dummies. They can't get to the third read on the back. Now, I know you can play quarterback. We're going to bring you in. Pete Carroll. He's like, I'm not trying to rebuild anything here. Let's go get a quarterback. Well, I know I can win with right away. So I don't love the roster. You're probably a little bit higher on the roster maybe than I am. I don't.

Don't mistake me for being high on the roster. I'm just saying they have a couple of good players and they have cap space. Yeah, they got Brock Bowers, Max Crosby, and then they would need to rebuild things. But again, he's playing in a controlled environment indoors. They have Wilkins too. They have three blue chippers. Yeah. So they have three guys there. So that's the one I looked at and I thought I could see the Raiders if there's a team that says we're willing to go there. 50 million a year, two years.

Let's go. Let's win right now. We'll give you maybe a second round pick or whatever to the Rams. And Stafford says, Hey, Pete Carroll, Tom Brady, that sounds pretty good to me. I want to get paid what I'm worth. Well, a thing that you and I both love when we're doing the futures in the off season is new coach replacing an incompetent coach, which I think is the case here with the Raiders. And then way better QB replacing a bunch of shit QBs. They fit that recipe too.

And there's some Washington parallels with them. And none of us had the balls to pick Washington as a team that could potentially, you know, make the NFC title game or even the playoffs.

But there was a recipe we all looked at and we're like, ah, man, they just, they need too much help. But they did have the new coach who was way better than the old coach and the QB that could come in and potentially be way, way better than what they were getting in QB. Both of those things happen. They hit some draft picks. They hit some free agents. I don't feel like the Raiders are that far away from that recipe. I don't think the Patriots are either. Those are the two teams that I think you have to take seriously. But for them, like, you know, if they were able to keep that six pick,

Get somebody awesome. Trade for Stafford. Nail one more pick. Get two more guys in free agent. And all of a sudden you hope the Chiefs go backwards. You hope the Chargers kind of stay where they are. You kind of you could talk yourself into it, I guess is my point.

Yeah, it's tough in the AFC. Like I don't see a path really for them to get to the Super Bowl, but it's not about that for every team. Yeah. Can they win? Can they be competent again? Yeah. Can they sneak into the playoffs and have a moment where they've just been such a beat down franchise? I think that is within the realm of possibilities there. Well, Carroll and Stafford over Gardner Minshew and Antonio Pierce. That's five wins. I don't even care who else is on the team that you have to be. I'm just making that a plus five.

All right. We got to go through some of these, some of these teams. I spent all morning, by the way, Bill, just, but that placing team with quarterback, what do I think is going to happen? What's the most interesting thing? So, you know, we've built up so much drama. We got to take a break. Let's take a break. We'll come back. QB roulette. This episode is brought to you by Audi.

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They have $51 million in cap space. They have the same coach. They have the first pick of the draft and they have Will Levis, a quarterback who I think we can all agree it's not happening. There's two separate questions here. Why wouldn't they just take Cam Ward? I know you're starting to do your draft prep. People do not think he is the best player in this class. I think there's consensus. McShay had his great newsletter this weekend. Our draft guys are talking about it too. You can say there's either two or three elite players in the draft.

right? Abdul Carter, Travis Hunter. And then I personally, and as you know, I don't watch a lot of college football, but I've prepped for this draft a lot. It seems like Mason Graham to me is a home run pick and an elite guy. So those three guys, Cam Ward is not better than any of them, but QB matters the most. And if you can hit with the guy and the rookie scale, that's the best thing you can do. So two questions. Why wouldn't they just take Cam Ward? And if they didn't,

why wouldn't they trade back to a team that wanted to take Kim Ward? Because I think he should be the first pick. What are your thoughts on that? I think the thing with, I think the reason why they wouldn't is because teams are,

kind of overconfident in their ability to evaluate quarterbacks. And we see it every year, like this time at last year, this time last year, we're talking about Jaden Daniels, but we're pointing out all the flood, like no one. I don't know that anyone had to take that. He's going to come in and turn around the franchise right away and be the guy. No one was that confident. And we see it year after year with the way these guys get drafted high. They don't pan out. Other guys get drafted later in the first round or the second round. So I think it's fair to look at Cam Ward and say, you know, there are some

questions there, but I'm with you. If you see the upside, and I think by all accounts, the people who have already studied this, and I still have to look at it a little bit closer, but they say he has the tools. He has the upside. He has the athletic traits. He has the arms. So if you have those things,

Sometimes you just have to take a swing. And like, it's different to take a guy with the first pick than to trade three first round picks to get up to the top five. Like if you draft, if you're the Titans, you draft Kim Ward, you keep him for two years. It's not really working out. He's not the guy.

you're just sort of back to where you are now, but with good players, because hopefully you've added pieces to the roster. It's not like, you know, you're a complete dumpster fire of a franchise and you have to come up with all these solutions. So I think that they should look into taking him if they reach the threshold of, hey, he has the upside and we got to find a quarterback. I'm not convinced that they're going to do that just because they've been

a train wreck of an organization. Let's call it what I mean. They can't figure out which way the wind blows. Who do they want the GM to be? Who do they want the coach to be? What's their plan? They spend big in free agency. So it seems like a top five worst owner, right?

Right now. I agree. Yes. Yeah. To be like, yeah, Rabel's not our guy. Let me back the GM who I'm going to fire a year later. That just tells me you don't know what you're doing. Exactly. So I sort of lean towards them being safer and just drafting the best possible player and maybe saying, hey, Cam Ward's not perfect. So let's go in a different direction. And I wonder if other teams look at Ward and say he's good enough where we want to give up draft capital to move up to number one or maybe we hang tight and see who falls to us.

So there's two possible moves for them if it's not Cam Ward. One is you flip picks with the Giants one to three. If you think the Giants, the Giants are fired up for him and are worried that they're not going to get him, that he's not going to fall to three, that somebody is going to trade above them. They just want to lock it down. I mean, would you trade, trade down two spots if you could get a Giants future first out of it? I wouldn't do it for the second rounder.

I think that's too much in the history of the draft is if you're trading up for a quarterback, you've got to have another first in the deal. We've just, that's how it's gone. If I'm the Titans and I need help everywhere and I could go from one to three and I know I'm still getting Carter or Hunter at two or at number three and I'm getting a Giants pick, which I would really want because I don't think they're going to be good anytime soon. I would do that.

I don't know if I would do it if I was the Giants because like we discussed earlier, I don't know where I'm going if I'm the Giants. I just want a good player. But that's the only trade that makes sense to me for them. Yeah, I'm with you. I think if you're the Titans, I would absolutely do that. Move down two spots and get a future first. That'd be smart business.

The Giants would have to really now the Giants are an interesting team because they are in job preservation mode. And these are the teams that act the most recklessly because they don't really care what's happening three years. Yeah, I'm getting fired. I'm getting fired next year. This doesn't work out. My favorite GMs for content. These are the best team. So maybe they do it. I sort of feel like that might even I don't know that they'll like him that much to say, yeah, we'll give up next year's first to move up two spots.

Yeah, content MVPs, brand new owners and GMs who need to do something desperate because if it doesn't work out, they're getting fired anyway. Just the MVPs for 25 years for me. I don't really see any other moves up to the one spot unless it was the Raiders.

And they dangled six and a future first, and maybe even took like a bad contract from the Titans because they have the cap space to actually absorb something. That's the only other one. Like I, you know, like the, the draft order is Titans, Browns, Giants. The Pats aren't trading up for Cam Ward. Jacksonville is not trading up for Cam Ward at number five. So it would really just be the Raiders unless they,

There's a jet scenario that I think there's a more interesting version of this, but they have the seventh pick. And if Garrett Wilson was on the table with the seventh pick to move up to one, I'm at least having a meeting about that if I'm the Titans, but I'm probably not doing it.

I think the Jets need to be in just relax mode. Reset everything. Like, I don't think this is the year for them to take a big swing on something like that for a quarterback. Just kind of rebuild the culture, add to the roster and the draft. So that would surprise me a little bit. The Raiders...

A lot of sort of links between Shador Sanders and the Raiders where he and Tom Brady have a relationship. He and Mark Davis, I think, have a relationship. That one's interesting to me because I think, you know, we mentioned Stafford, but let's say Stafford's not on the table. They might look at it and Pete Carroll's not going to be afraid to play a young quarterback. He's done that before, obviously, with Russell Wilson. And if Tom Brady's like, no, trust me, I just feel like whoever Tom Brady wants, that's going to be the quarterback of the Raiders. Maybe...

That's wrong. But every time I'm looking at some of the options, I'm like, Tom Brady's not going to want Sam Darnold for, you know, 30 plus million dollars a year. And I'm like, Stafford, I could see it. Shador Sanders, I could see it. And then maybe if those don't pan out, Gina, are

Or are they the Aaron Rodgers team? Where again, he would look at it and say, you know what? He's a veteran, but he can still play. He's going to be good in this system. So the Raiders might be the most interesting of any of these teams that need a quarterback. We'll go back to that top of the draft. I'm just going to give everybody the possibilities. Here are the quarterback possibilities if you're looking for one. Cam Ward, who's going to be a top four pick. Shador Sanders, who I think is going to be, I would say, top eight pick.

maybe top nine pick. He's going to, he's going to go in the first nine. I just don't know where, and we're going to know, is he, did he go to the combine or did he skip it? Uh, I don't think he's participating in the combine. Cause there's some athleticism stuff with him. That's funny. Cause his dad's DM, but I think everyone talks about, he's tough. He's smart. He processes everything, but athletically he's not actually as athletic as you would think he is. So I'm sure that at some point people are going to want to see it with their own eyes. And then there's the Jackson dart

Late first round, early second. Could he have like a Bo Nix rise out of nowhere? That's it for guys who could actually start for a team next year. Then you have Stafford. We talked about all the cap stuff with him. Sam Darnold, Garoppolo, Rogers, Russell Wilson, the corpse of Kirk Cousins, Jameis Winston, Justin Fields,

And my guy, Joe Milton, who I don't know if you've seen, don't, don't look at who's on Buffalo's team in week 18. Just look at what Joe Milton is doing. Don't look to see if there are any starters on the field. Joe Milton. Is he worth the first round pick? Probably.

Eagles version of that is Tanner McKee, by the way. You know, there are a couple of those guys who the fan base of that team is like, would you take a first for this guy? I don't know. You know, I want to hold on to him. Is there anyone else that I've listed all those QBs? Is there anyone else you had that is like, I could see that guy starting. All right. Do you want a little wild card that I don't think is going to happen? Do I need to buckle up? Should I put my seatbelt up? Buckle up a little bit.

The Pittsburgh Steelers call the Indianapolis Colts and say, we will give you a third round pick

for Anthony Richardson, a quarterback who you guys know, you don't like him anyway. You benched him last year. You brought him back in. The vibes were terrible. You want to admit your mistake. You know, you're not going to get a first for him, obviously, at this point. He's been injured and he hasn't done anything yet. But we'll give you a third round pick and then you can decide what you want to do a quarterback. So Anthony Richardson goes to Pittsburgh under the Mike Tomlin umbrella. They get a young quarterback. They get a new culture.

They run the football with him. And the Indianapolis Colts, Bill, they are your Sam Darnold team. They say, you know what? We're going to give Sam Darnold $35-ish million per year. We're going to admit our mistake with Anthony Richardson and take the third round pick. And this is going to be the trade that shakes up the NFL this offseason. How do we feel? So the Colts have $30 million in cap space right now. And they have the 14th pick. And if they traded Richardson...

I would assume there's some sort of cap hit to it, but not that much because he's on a rookie contract. So maybe that gets them into Darnold range. What's Darnold worth for you? Before, before I tell you whether I like this idea or not, because the franchise tag for him would be 44, uh, 42.4 million franchise tax because people were thinking, Oh, you could see the Vikings franchise. That would be insane for them to do that. I, I, I,

personally think they have 60 million in cap space. You're just going to use all of that to franchise tag them and then hope you can trade them. Why would they do that? So what's he actually worth? Because he's not worth 44. Yeah, I'm with you. That's the other, the posturing you mentioned earlier with the Stafford. I think that's the Darnold stuff. Give me a break. They're going to franchise tag him and then trade him and keep a $40 million cap holdout. I don't see any team. We've never seen anyone do that.

No, I wouldn't see it. I think the comp is the Baker Mayfield deal from, was it last year or two years ago, where he got, I think it was $33, $33.5 million per year. It was like a three-year, $100 million deal. I think that's kind of the best case scenario for Sam Darnold. If there's a team that says, you know what, I know it didn't end well for him, but we like him. He can play well for us. We're going to pay him real starter money. I think that's the number because the weird thing about the NFL is

is there's no kind of middle ground for these contracts. Like the only quarterback making between 15 and $30 million per year is Gino Smith. So it's either you're a bridge quarterback and you're, or a backup and you're under $15 million per year, or it's no, we believe in you as our starter and you're making between 30 and $60 million per year. It's almost like Hollywood actors where you have like, you have your Tom Cruise types, uh,

And then you, you drop like majorly to the next, to the next level of like, yeah, we can put that guy in a poster, but it does, you know, you don't really have to spend a lot of money for it. I, I personally think 30 million for Darnold's too high, but I can't shake the last two games. I don't know how you get past that. If you're running a team and you're thinking about if the, if the goal is to actually try to win the Superbowl, there might be some other teams that just their goal would be competency and

And then maybe it makes sense, but you know, Mayfield, at least Mayfield had done, you know, he had pulled the Browns. He'd won a playoff game. There was some, some sort of history. And then he had a really good comeback year and there was some stuff you could point to. I don't know. I'd be really nervous about that. So you think Colts potentially for him? I don't see it with the Raiders. The Steelers would be the other one. Cause just cause they have the cap space.

And if they could get him and sell him on the culture and be like 60 million for three years, make him a $20 million guy, maybe.

Yeah. You seem suspicious. I look at it and yeah, my, my Richardson, you know, trade was more team content and I don't expect that to happen. I'm with you. So I think you look at it, the Steelers, when I was just going through all the teams, they were one of the teams left where I said, okay, I don't have a place for Sam Darnold. So in that sense, I could see it. Is he the type of guy Mike Tomlin wants though? You know, like he's going to probably, I don't know what, what is Mike Tom? Mike Tomlin's like your buddy who just dates all kinds of girls. You have no idea what his type is.

He's been all over the map. I mean, think of all the QBs. They've run in and out of there. He's trying to talk himself into Trubisky. You know, is he Russell Wilson? Great. Justin Fields. I don't. Does he have a type?

Yeah, no, that's a good point. You're right. I don't know what it is. So I don't know that they would want to pay that kind of money for Sam Darnold. Would they rather just take a one year flyer on somebody? Are they an Aaron Rodgers team? You know, potentially the Steelers. Can I ask you this? Are you an Aaron Rodgers team? Would you would you want to do a year with Aaron Rodgers? I'm out. There's no way I'm going near that, dude. I would. And from what we saw last year, he doesn't want to get hit anymore. He doesn't have legs anymore. Like, I just don't see it.

I agree. And all the stuff that comes with it, I would want nothing to do with it. The Steelers kind of just sit back and look at who's left there. So that's why I threw them out there for him. The tight with the Titans, if they don't draft a quarterback at one, who's playing quarterback for the Titans, would they look at Sam Darnold or somebody like Derek Carr and say, let's just get sort of a short-term option for a couple of years while we build up. I that's a, I'm blind out. Can I throw a name at you that I'm,

I feel like his stock is too far down compared to what it should be. Garoppolo. Okay. So terrible Raiders here, right? Immortalized in the Devante Adams wide receiver show, just him being pissed off the whole year. But we've also seen he's had success. And there was a while where the biggest criticism for him would be like, well, when he's on the field, he's good.

But he keeps getting hurt. He keeps getting dinged up. He takes hits. He's just, it's the durability would be the question for him. And now we've moved into this phase of he's just not good at quarterback. And I'm not sure I believe that because, you know, the Niners came pretty close to winning a Super Bowl with him, which is a lot more than we could say about anyone else we're talking about on this list, except Rogers, who's washed up. And I'm just like, if I'm going to pay 30 million for

Sam Darnold, I would kind of rather pay $5 million for Garoppolo and try to build an offensive line around him so he's not taking big hits. And do that because I've seen him do it before. I don't think he can do it if he doesn't have a line. But if you're actually blocking for him, it's not inconceivable to me that he'd be good. Yeah. You agree or disagree? No, I think you're right. If you have the infrastructure in place, I think the problem with a lot of these teams we're talking about and look at...

Like, do they have a good offensive line? Do they have good wide receivers? Do they have a good play caller? Now you could have those caveats for a lot of the quarterbacks we're discussing here as well. But I do agree with you. I would rather take a flyer on Jimmy Garoppolo for under 10 million than commit to Sam Darnold on that Baker Mayfield contract than to have all the stuff that comes with Aaron Rodgers.

At this age, like I would rather just buy some time because I think you're right when he's on the field, he will give you a baseline level of competency where you will be able to run your offense. Your other players will get their touches. You build up the roster and then you see where you're at a year from now. So, yeah, I don't think that's a wrong way to look at it. The Rams, would they if they were to trade Matthew Stafford, would they just say, hey, Garoppolo has been here. Let's do a year with Garoppolo. I think they would after that.

Yeah. Like, like if the Seahawks chair to Gino, which we'll talk about in a second. And they were like, we're going to bring in Jimmy cheaper price. I'd be like, that's a bad idea. You guys can't block.

Like Jimmy's going to just take a lot of hits and run for his life. And he's going to suck like he did on the Raiders. But if it was a team that had a little more stability, like I actually think the Steelers, if they can get their offensive line healthy next year, that's a good offensive line. Potentially they've certainly invested in it. And he seems like more of a Steeler type to me going backwards. Brown's at two, no QB and Watson out for the year of the Achilles thing.

This is another team. It's like, why wouldn't they take Kim Ward if he was sitting there at two? They're never going to have another chance to sign a QB trade for one. They're in this Watson hell. And everyone's like, well, do you see them take Hunter or Carter? I don't understand why they wouldn't take a quarterback if they liked Ward. Why wouldn't they?

I'm with you with these teams like you only get so many chances at drafting a quarterback. And it's not that the likelihood is high that you're going to hit, but it's what happens if you do actually hit. It totally changes you. And especially for a team like this that is in cap hell, that has signed the worst contract of any player in NFL history with Deshaun Watson. And there's no way out of it. Like I see the rumors that, hey, go get Kirk Cousins.

I mean, where does that leave you? You know, 37 year old Kirk Cousins. I'd much rather have Garoppolo than Kirk Cousins. Yeah. So I think he's going to retire and be on TV next year would be my prediction for him. Interesting. Maybe. Yeah. He's getting paid either way. He's getting most of the Atlanta money. Why does he want to keep playing? Yeah. He's had a great life. He's made a bunch of money and he'll be an immediate, like, I think like an aggressive TV candidate.

Okay. I like that. I hadn't thought about that. I was looking at where Kirk Cousins might end up, but I'm with you. Basically, we're on the same page with the teams at the top of the draft. I think too often teams are like, this isn't an Andrew Luck type prospect. This isn't whoever. We can't take them because it goes back to the job security thing because they're like, if we miss on this...

we're not going to get a chance to draft another quarterback. I do think that's a big deal. We talked about the Eagles at the top, like Howie Roseman can make mistakes. They signed Bryce Huff last year for $17 million per year, and he was inactive in the Super Bowl. Guess what?

It doesn't matter. He's allowed to take those risks. They had Carson Wentz on a huge deal and they were able to trade him. Other organizations that don't have stability, their GMs are making decisions based on is this potentially going to get me fired? And they can't get that out of their head, where if you had a guy who knew he had the job for the next 15, 20 years, I bet they'd be more likely to say, hey, Kim Ward's not perfect, but we kind of like him. Let's take a flyer on this because look at what the other options are.

It's such an important point. The psychology of the people making the decision never gets factored into these mock drafts. If I'm running the Titans or if I'm running the Browns and I don't take Cam Ward and then he goes to the Giants at three and he's awesome, I'm getting fired. If I take Cam Ward, I'm buying two years. I'm in the same spot like with Grigson and on the Colts with Richardson, where you take the guy,

you're not really going to get criticized no matter what happens for two years. And there's always the illusion of hope with the QB you took, right? So with Cam Ward, I'm buying the illusion of hope for two years. I now I'm secure with my job. Same thing if the Giants were able to get him a three. That's why I think there's no scenario where he's not one of the top three picks. And I'd be really surprised. I just, I don't understand why the Browns would pass on him when they are just completely fucked with this Watson thing. And I also think like,

Is it inconceivable Ward could go one and Sanders could go two. And we'd be like, Oh my God, we've seen Mitch Trubisky go second in a draft. Like, like the closer you get to these drafts, like everybody thinks Kim Ward isn't as good as the top three quarterbacks in last year's draft. Right. They don't even maybe think he's as good as Penix was last year. But when you're in these drafts and people need quarterbacks, all of a sudden the value just skyrockets for these stupid reasons. I think the Browns,

They're so screwed. I don't know how they don't take a quarterback. Oh, cool. We have Travis Hunter. Great. I have nobody to throw the ball to him. And our defense is going to be in the field all the time. I'll probably get hurt. Giants at three. No QB except Drew Locke. Third pick, 38.7 million cap space. And this seems like another QB spot for me. Could you trade three for Stafford in 26? You could. As we covered, I don't know how it makes sense. Yeah, I think they're...

I think their best case scenario is to stay put and those quarterbacks don't go one and two and you take a quarterback. They almost, they're like the team that has to, they have to make a move. I don't even think they have a quarterback on the roster right now. And they're not going to be like, Oh, let's sign a bridge guy like Garoppolo again for what we just talked about. Cause there are jobs on the line. So they have to take a swing. They seem like the cam ward team. If he doesn't go one or two. And if he does, I think you have to maybe look at your door Sanders there.

It could be a Russell Wilson team too. Like there's a case for Russell Wilson for a team like that where you say, Hey, he made the playoffs last year. He's pretty good for the Steelers, right? We get him for cheap because he's still being, he's still on that giant contract. He's in New York. He knows how to handle the city. You can talk to yourself in an event. We're going to suck anyway. Why am I spending money on a quarterback? And if I'm not drafting one Raiders at a six, uh,

Six pick, 99.5 million cap space. There was stuff online as we were taping this morning about Pete Carroll talking to the Seahawks guy. A lot of people wonder if Gino might get traded.

What is Gino worth to you? Like, let's say the Raiders are like, Gino's our guy. We're going to get him. We're going to give him a new contract. This is the guy we want. He's competent enough. He can throw the ball. He's had some success. This is who we like. Is it a second round pick for Gino? Is it, we'll give you the six for Gino and the 18. What's the trade?

My initial gut went to second round pick. I don't think you're getting a first round pick for Gino Smith at his age. You're also going to have to redo his contract. So you're making a financial commitment to him. He's going into the final year of his deal. That that's interesting. Sixth for Gino and 18. Would you do that if you're the Seahawks and then you use the money and you sign, I don't know, Sam Darnold?

I wouldn't do that if I were the Seahawks. I don't think I would either. Yeah. How about this? I wouldn't trade Gino Smith if I were the Seahawks. I wouldn't either. Yeah, I wouldn't either. So I don't know. Draft an offensive line for him. Add a couple of people who can block because that was why you lost last year.

Yeah, it's true. I mean, if they had a great offseason where they were able to upgrade just the offensive line and like not do anything else, we might be on here in August saying, hey, we like the Seahawks to win the NFC West. I mean, they won 10 games last year with the bad offensive line, with a defensive coach implementing a system for the first time. Like, I think their defense is going to be pretty good next year. So I'm with you. Yeah, I don't know if they give him an extension, you know, in terms of an extension for Geno.

It's either the floor is probably that Baker Mayfield deal we talked about, 33 million per year. But he might look at it and go, give me a break. I'm playing better, like you said, behind this offensive line. The salary cap has gone up. I want over $40 million per year. And then at his age, in his mid-30s, if you're the Seahawks, are you comfortable doing that? He's like, look at all my come-from-behind wins. And then they're like, let's throw in the Cardinals tape of some of the throws you made in that game. Jets at seven.

Oh, by the way, with the Raiders, we feel like Stafford is a real possibility there. That's our favorite Raiders move, right? Or taking Sanders. Yes. There's one more Sanders piece that I forgot to mention during the Raiders part. If Sanders is at four for the Patriots, I don't know why they wouldn't flip picks with them at that point. If the Patriots, Sanders is still there and the Patriots signal,

We're trading out of this pick because we have a bunch of people that want Sanders. You could just move up and take them. But give us your first next year. Four and six. We'll flip. Give us next year's first. And we'll throw in our third round pick next year. I'm doing that in five seconds if I'm the Pats.

If you're the past, yes. I just, these quarterbacks, I don't know that the league thinks as highly of them that they would say, I'm giving up a future first. Now, I think there's a trade there to be made. Move from four to six. So second? Would you do four and six for the second? Something like that. Sure. Yeah. I would think about something like that. I think, I mean, when we're doing these, it's like, yeah, you're old. You know, who would say no? The Patriots, I think, are still saying yes to that.

Whereas the other team, the Raiders might be like, I still don't know if I want to go that high. But yeah, I think if they like Sanders and they want to go get him, I would have no issue with them making a move like that. Yeah, because if they're at six and they're basically talking themselves into Mason Graham or the best left tackle at that point, who unfortunately people aren't positive he's a left tackle, which makes me nervous. Will Campbell?

It's like, no, he's almost definitely a tackle, but he does have short arms. He might be a guard. It's like, well, if he might be a guard, I'm not taking him in the top six. I'm just not. You can't spend a top six pick on somebody who might be a guard. I like him. I mean, he played, literally played left tackle in the sec, you know? And then, and then we start measuring the arm length and I like, no, he's not going to play. I like him too. Do I have to take him with the fourth pick? Do I take him with the six pick? Can I, can I just move down and take him at nine? Yeah. Yeah.

Jet seven, no QB, seventh pick, 11.2 million in cap space. Another possible Sanders spot. Can I just, can I test drive you through Pat's trade, the four to the Jets for Wilson in the seven scenario, just for fun, just for shits and giggles? Can you give me a who says no on that one? I got, I know I got nephew Kyle's attention. Jets are a no. I mean, Garrett Wilson on his own traded, I believe would get a first round pick.

If you look at wide receivers, I mean, AJ brought all these guys who got traded in the last five years who have been young wide receivers who are very good, get first round picks. I didn't say it was a fair trade for the Jets. I just wanted to walk you through the scenario. What about four and our third, which is high up in the third round for seven and Wilson? Is that more interesting to you? And the Jets take Sanders.

Still not. I'm not doing that. We have to put our second in that for you to do it. Uh-huh.

Yes. And even that, like if I'm the Jets, I, why am I trading Garrett Wilson? Like we're like, Hey, we know he's miserable. He doesn't want to be a jet anymore. Listen, this is why you hire Aaron Glenn. Come to Jake Bang. Come to Jake Bang. Get him, get Aaron Glenn in a room with him and he may change his tune that this is, that's why you hire Aaron Glenn to get through to some of these guys who have just been like, man, it has been miserable being a jet. Well, it's not going to be miserable anymore. So I wouldn't trade number one wide receivers on rookie contracts. Okay.

seventh pick in the draft. Does Sanders fall below seven? Because I don't see how the Jets don't take him at seven. I don't see any scenario where that doesn't happen.

I don't think he falls below six. I sort of feel like if he's there when the writers draft. Yeah. So I'm with you. I don't think he even gets to seven. So we definitely have Hunter, Carter, who now they're talking about how his shoulder's not 100%, which could knock him out of the number one pick. Come to the Patriots. Be our Willie McGinnis of this generation. Carter, Hunter, Graham, the two QBs. And then it gets like, when you start talking about like, who do you think is going to be the,

six pick in this draft or in that top six, you'll get different answers from different people. Some people would say it's Campbell might be the cornerback from Michigan. Um, so for the jets, like if they're just sitting there and both quarterbacks are gone at that point, they're just, they're taking anybody a couple more teams saints. They have the ninth pick, no cap space and Derek Carr and Spencer Rattler. Good luck.

Uh, no ability to trade, no ability to really do anything. Colts. We mentioned whether they move on from Richardson or not. Steelers, no QB whatsoever. 21st pick 60.2 million in cap space. I'm not saying they're not a Stafford team. They could fit the contract in. Would you trade the 21st pick for Stafford? If you're the Steelers, you have to feel like you could win the title. If you're doing that, it's a good one. It was another name that I had written down for him. Um,

I would have to think strongly about doing that if I'm the Steelers, when you look at their quarterback situation in recent years. And like you said, they made the playoffs last year with, it's not like they have a terrible team. They had a good defense. You know, things fell apart. Hey, idiots like me were saying they were the best team in the AFC at the end of November. They really looked that way. And then they completely died. And I have, we found TJ Watts body yet. What happened to him?

Yeah. So offensively, it's not the greatest spot for Stafford when you look at just kind of the supporting cast, but you have pickings. Maybe you can add a piece in the draft here in the later rounds. I would have to think about that if I were the Steelers and given their other options. Would you trade 21 for Gino Smith? Wow. I actually think if I'm the Steelers,

I like that. I would do that. I think I would too. I think I would do it. I'm pro Gino. Yeah. A couple more teams and then we'll go. The Niners, Purdy, one more year left on this deal, but this is the time when you blow up the deal. You give them the giant extension and you kind of have to decide how much is Brock Purdy worth? Probably more than a Mayfield contract, maybe less than a Tua contract, but Tua got the contract he did and that made me think he's probably worth the Tua contract.

Yeah, I'd say more than the Tua contract. Oh, Jesus. Really? Yeah. Oh, God. If I'm Purdy, maybe this... I mean, if Tua is getting $53 million per year and now the cap has gone up, how are you taking anything under than like $55 million per year? I mean, that's just what the price is for quarterbacks. Tua's not better than Purdy, I don't think. But they have the leverage of...

How about you take 85% of that to a deal and then you have the security, whatever happens this season, you know, you have the contract. What if this season goes badly? This is a pretty big financial decision. You're locking it up. Do it now. That would be the psychology you'd try to use against them. I guess like, look at what happened to you the second half of last season. You fell apart. We're not going to have Debo Samuel next year. God only knows how long we're going to have McCaffrey. God only knows how long Trent Williams is going to be healthy. Like,

You sure you don't want this now? I guess. But I think with the agents, I would be like, okay, cool. I'll play out the final year of my deal. Then you're going to tag me next year for what? $45 million per year. You're not going to be able to make any other moves. And then after that, I'm a free agent at the age of what? He's going to be in his late twenties. And I just saw what Kirk Cousins got on the open market. So unless I have a career ending injury, I'm going to be just

fine with that. So I don't know. I think that's probably the floor. Now they could wait. The 49ers could wait, say, play out the final year of your deal, maybe tag him. Just you want, do you want some more information before you commit that money to Brock Purdy? I think that would be reasonable, even if it costs you a little bit more in the long run. He should hire Kirk Cousins as his advisor.

Just to scare them. Seahawks, we mentioned Gino in the 18th pick. They're over the cap. So they basically have to figure out the Gino thing. Trading him is not going to really buy them flexibility. And then the last one is the Vikings. JJ McCarthy year two. Darnold would be the 44.2 million franchise tag. They have the 24th pick and they have 60 million in cap space. And their team, we mentioned them earlier when we were talking about the Super Bowl odds.

that's a team where the odds could shift pretty dramatically. Like 32 to one right now, they do a couple moves and a couple things. All of a sudden I could see them getting the, getting the bump. I'm watching them. Green Bay's the other one that I think we just kind of have to see how March and April go for these teams.

Yeah, it's like with Darnold, if you look at it on the whole, he probably performed statistically like the 14th or 16th best starter in the NFL. So that's kind of the bar you need J.J. McCarthy to clear. You don't need him to be like a top five quarterback. It's like with that system, with a good offensive coach, with Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, can you upgrade aspects of the offensive line?

Your offense really could be better next year than it was this year. And then you just put your faith in Brian Flores on the defensive side of the ball. So yeah, that's the whole point of drafting McCarthy is that he's on a rookie deal. You don't have to pay Darnold anymore. You can upgrade other areas of the roster. Well, one thing, one question with them with him is, would he be the number one pick in this draft if teams knew he was 100% healthy? Because I think people like McCarthy...

Last year, McCarthy as a draft prospect seems like it's higher than Cam Ward or Sanders this year, right? And we're talking about how Cam Ward has to be in the top three. So my guess would be

So you have to almost think of it that way for the Vikings. We used this capital last year with this great season. Didn't end the way we wanted it, but now we have cap space and this guy who's coming in who would be the number one pick in the draft potentially. Yeah, you're right. I think he probably would be. I think everybody, the people I've heard and like and respect who do this stuff have mostly said that the quarterbacks this year would certainly go below the top four guys from last year. So I think you're right.

Can I give you one more crazy wildcard trade and then we'll go? Please. Just for your reaction. J.J. McCarthy for Herbert. Wow. The Chargers say no.

Oh, I think they say no. I just wanted to, I wanted to talk it out. I love it. Yeah. Harbaugh's like, eh, I love what I, what I got from my guy last year. You know who won me a title? McCarthy. I'd have some calf space. Like I'm really interested in what the charges are doing. Cause it seems like Bosa's out of there and it's, that's not as big of a deal as it probably is on paper. Because if you've watched him the last couple of years, I don't think he's been Mr. Reliable, but yeah.

it's a big foundational piece for them that didn't totally work out. And you think about what happened with them last season, where a lot of things lined up, schedule, you know, some of the pieces they had. And now I don't like their scenario nearly as much this year. Yeah. They got to figure out the Herbert piece. Right. He's a free agent. So yeah, they don't have a lot of, they don't have a ton of talent. Like they've got good offensive tackles. They've got Herbert, they've got McConkie. So that's a nice sort of

foundation, I guess, for the offense. I don't know if you trust Greg Roman to make the most out of those pieces. And then defensively, it's kind of has to be all coaching unless they can really add some upgrades here this offseason. So you're working on your annual 50 best free agents ever for the season list. That's right. I got the tab up right here. T Higgins has been number one on a lot of lists. Who's my number one guy I want the Patriots to get.

Yeah. Is there a scenario where the Bengals keep T Higgins at a huge price and pay chase and pay Burrow and have a competent football team? Cause I don't understand how they would do it. You can do it. Joe Burrow has talked about, Hey, the Eagles did it. We can figure it. There are ways you can do it where you pay big money up front. You spread that cash out over the course of the, the Eagles have way more money than the bagels. Yeah. Bagels are cheap. Yeah. You can't do it if you're cheap.

Yeah, I do love that Burrow is actually acting. He's doing an NBA player impersonation. Have you noticed that? He's like going out being like, we need to do this. We need to pay this. Like he is taking control of the team, like putting pressure on ownership and the front office that if you guys don't do this, like it's on you. I'm telling anyone who puts a microphone in front of my face what I think we should be doing with this organization. I think it's been kind of cool. And I don't know that you see a lot of quarterbacks

go out there. Usually they're like, you know, that's not my job. You know, I just, I like him, but it's a business. Yeah. So that, that's been a pretty fun storyline for me over the last, whatever, two, three months. Well, I'm sure he's looking at it like, dude, I want Jason Higgins. Like, like we're going to be awesome if we just have the three of us and we'll figure out the rest. But you still like the Eagles, they have a great owner and, uh, who's, you know, perfectly willing to spend money, spend money up front.

That's the game you have to do if you're going to play it that way. And we, the Bengals have been cheap. I'm dealing with this right now at the Patriots. The Patriots have been cheap for the last 10 years. They have some real opportunity now cap space with the Drake May rookie contract to spend aggressively. Are they going to do it? You know, are they going to actually show out the cash? They haven't done it for a decade. We'll see. Yeah. I'll give you my dream scenario for the past. Then we'll go. Okay.

Trading back from four to six with the Raiders and either getting a future first or the Raiders second and a fourth, something like that. And then taking Mason Graham or the left tackle who's ever left. The left tackle might be a guard, might be a tackle, whatever. I'll take either of those. We just need good players. T. Higgins, signing him. You're linebacker. I'm taking him. Is that okay?

Are you okay with him being a Pat next year? Because he's coming. I don't know. I think if the Eagles make one move, they're going to try to keep him. But I'm listening. They could overpay, like you said. What's the price?

I think the floor is probably around 14 million. And if a team wants to blow them away with a contract, it's going to be up around 18 million, I would say. Good. Come to New England. And then I'm best player available after that in the draft because we need players everywhere. That would be my dream scenario. Get an asset from the Raiders because the Raiders feel a little gamey and desperate to me and go all out for Higgins. All out. And then if Parsons is actually on the table,

I think they have to investigate that one. And if it was, you know, even with the fourth pick, I don't really like trading top five picks for, you know, guys in their mid twenties who are making big money. I don't know if that's an awesome NFL recipe, but for Parsons, I think you have to think about it. Right.

Yeah. I mean, Parsons, it's like that Khalil Mack deal back in the day. It might be the biggest trade since like the Ricky Williams trade or something, if he were actually to get dealt. When you're talking about a Hall of Fame player, premium position in his prime, pretty much 31 teams would be interested. But Garrett makes me more nervous. Older.

Little erratic as a guy. I think there's been some weird stuff over the years. The team's not, doesn't seem to ever be that good with him. And I just to give up like a top five pick for that and have to pay him all that money. I don't like, is that really changing my destiny? I don't see it.

I think he's like the final piece for a team that can contend like the, the Eagles, the commanders, a team that's like, Hey, we're trying to win right now. The age is the only thing really for me. I think he's been durable. He's been productive. He's been on some bad teams, but, uh,

I would say at least like a first and maybe a second that turns into a first, something like that is what I think the price would be. What's Parsons worth if Dallas calls the Pats and says, we're ready to move on Parsons. We need your fourth pick plus blank.

It starts at two first round picks. I think it might get to three first round picks. It might get to two first round picks and two second round picks. Like I'm not even having a conversation without two first round picks. And again, it's just bad management by the Cowboys. I think to even be considering something like that, when you,

When you lucked into it, the thing with the Cowboys, sorry, I got to go on one last rant. Yeah. They get Dak Prescott in the fourth round. They get a number one wide receiver in CeeDee Lamb outside the top five. They get Micah Parsons, maybe the best defensive player in football, outside the top five. Like, they've nailed the hardest things to nail, and they can't figure out the other stuff, and that's why the Cowboys are the Cowboys. But I'm with you, Jerry Jones, still actor of the year for that performance in Landman. Yeah.

Did I tell you my story on that film? You did win the Emmy. No, you did not. We were watching. My wife actually paused the screen, looked at me to be like, he could have been one of the greatest actors of this generation. He could have been Marlon Brando. Amazing stuff. Shia, when's your free agent piece coming out? I think it should be out Monday morning next week. Top 50 free agents. Is Higgins first? You don't want to spoil it? I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it based on who's going to be the most expensive to least expensive. That's my plan this year. So you got to take in positional value and maybe a quarterback we just talked about to differentiate the ringers content might be first on my list. All right. Great, great tease. Uh, and we can listen to you on the ringer NFL show as well. And the Philly special show that, uh, I've been trying not to listen to cause, uh, I

I like when, actually, I'll start listening again because I like when the Philly fans are unhappy. I don't want to hear happy Philly fans. I like Philly fans freaking out about Paul George's podcast and Embiid having to have a bone taken from his hip to put in his, that's the Philly content I want. Good to see you, Sheil. Good to see you. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. So you sign up to stream a show and then months later, you're still paid for the service long after you finished it? That sounds familiar. Try Rocket Money.

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today. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. In basketball, a blockbuster trade can make or break your playoff run before the deadline. GMs across the league scour for the right data and insights, hoping their moves pay off. February 6th trade deadline this year, by the way. Just like in basketball, growing your small business in 2025 all comes down to how well you can build your team. That starts with better insights from LinkedIn. With unique skills and interests to the connections you have in common, LinkedIn

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All right. My friend Dave Burnett is here. He is an executive producer of The White Lotus and a bunch of good stuff. Jury duty. What else? Give us, do your credentials really fast. Sure. Immaculate, Sydney Sweeney movie I'm very proud of. Came out last year. Superstore.

Super successful White House plumbers, Woody Harrelson, Justin Theroux, underappreciated series. Bad Trip on Netflix, Eric Andre, Tiffany Haddish movie. Right. Seven Days in Hell, Andy Samberg, sports mockumentary on HBO. That was one of your first things, right? Do the quick backstory of how you got into this because you didn't start as a producer. No, I...

I was 14, grew up in Washington, D.C., walking through a mall, come across a movie set, classic movie, first kid, Sinbad.

I somehow thought... Was that a movie? Yeah. First Kid with Sinbad? I don't know if I saw that one. Should we put that on rewatchables or no? It's Sinbad as a secret surface agent. The first kid gets kidnapped and Sinbad rescues him. It's a great movie. Wow. That sounds great. Great movie. And I smooth talked my way past the PAs and I met Sinbad, met the director. I was sitting in these chairs. I sat in the director chairs.

And I'm like, this is what I want to do when I grow up. So I started in the mailroom at UTA and kind of hustled and delivered. Yeah, I forgot this. You're a mailroom guy. Yeah. I was like very obsessed with starting at the bottom. I'm like, what's the lowest level I can start at? It's like Bronny James is like that. I always think of myself as I'm the Bronny James of producers. It's really how I view myself. And I started off in the mailroom and I will, that's where I read my first Bill Simmons column.

I think I had a friend of mine at UTA who was in the mailroom with me who kept telling people that he had signed you, Ryan Hayden at UTA. And we were like, wow, you signed Bill Simmons. We were like 23. That's true. Because I was a huge Paradise Hotel fan. Yeah. And you would write about Paradise Hotel and the Celtics, obviously, in sports. And I was obsessed with your columns. And I met Mike White when I worked at UTA. Okay.

And that was 20 years ago. And so we've been working together ever since. And I then we Mike and I had a company together. I then at one point he came to me and he's like, I'm wasting your energy. You're way too ambitious for me.

Just go start your own company. You can always work with me, but you're too ambitious for me. So I started my own company and yeah. So you went from UTA mailroom, worked your way up a little bit, but then eventually landed with Mike White and you opened a company with him. Yeah, I was his assistant. And this is right around when like Funnier Diet started and

all these digital websites. Great times. Yeah. Early 2010s. Yes. And I started producing digital shorts and I would do, I did a lot of the first Funnier Die videos. I did this because I was obsessed with the hills. Mike and I were both obsessed with the hills. Who wasn't?

One of the best shows ever made, honestly. And we did a spoof of The Hills with James Franco and Mila Kunis. And that's the first thing I ever produced was basically I sat in an office and I transcribed two Audrina, Justin Bobby scenes. Wow. James Franco played Justin Bobby. I remember this actually. That's the first thing I ever produced. And I drove around West Hollywood looking for a bar to let us shoot at it. And not Delilah's. It was a bar called...

I can't remember the name of it. It was a bar on Santa Monica Boulevard and they let me shoot there for free and everyone showed up and yeah, that was the first thing I produced. And then I was just hustling. I was always...

really ambitious as an assistant. And at one point, Mike came to me as his assistant. He goes, I just got a show picked up at HBO called Enlightened, the pilot. And he's like, do you want to produce it? And I was his assistant. I was like, yeah. So Laura Dern, Laura Dern, I was like 27, 28. And I would show up to these rooms, Mike Lombardo and Sue Nagel and Laura Dern. And

And I didn't realize how young I was at the time. I just was like, yeah, I deserve to be here for whatever reason. And they were probably looking at me like, who's this kid that's in the room? And I produced the show. And yeah, I was the one only producer. And that-

That's how it got going. That's how it got going. So what are the tricks before we talk to the history of White Lotus, which is fascinating? What are the tricks you learned with producing a TV show that the common person wouldn't understand? Because people just see producer. It's a name that gets thrown around when you live in LA. You're like, what do you do? I'm a producer. And people are like, oh. Yeah. And they don't really know what that means or what you do. It's embarrassing how many people say it really is embarrassing. But

I played basketball. My high school basketball coach, Mike Hibbs in DC, who coached at the MAPHA, one of the most famous high school basketball programs in the country. So I was the glue guy. I was the guy taking charge. I was the Kurt Rambis of my team. And that's how I view producing. Really, I'm the glue guy. Yeah.

You know, we're having trouble closing the production designers deal. I will step in and close the deal. You know, casting locations, deal with the network, deal with notes, deal with release date, deal with marketing. You know, I think the best producers know where there's kind of an issue and they step in and they kind of, you know, take over an issue or prevent issues from coming. But, you know, on a day to day level, I can't tell you what my day will be.

just things will present themselves. And again, I think the best producers can kind of put their ego aside and step in and handle any situation. So you're a glue guy, problem solver. Yeah.

So it's like that little more, little more important than Finney Smith. Yeah. Almost like Andre Iguodala mid 2010s Warriors range. I would take that. Yeah. But I like to think of myself more like an Austin Reeves guy. Like if I need to, like jury duty, for example, was an idea that kind of, I originated with another producer, Todd Schulman. And we were kind of figuring out how could we, Todd worked with Sasha and I worked with Eric Andre, did Bad Trip.

And we're like, how can we take what we did and put that in TV? And we came up with this idea of jury duty. We hired the writers and kind of originated it and was really creative, was really the engine creatively. And then on something like White Lotus, Mike White is a genius. That's Mike White's creative vision. And my role in that is really kind of to be there by his side and do whatever Mike needs me to do.

So I like to think I can do both things. I can originate things creatively, like Jury Duty or White House Plumbers is something I originated. Or if it's something like Superstore or White Lotus, I can step in with a creator and kind of help them get their vision made and hopefully make it as...

as good as it can be. - And what's the right number of projects to have going at the same time? 'Cause this is part of the problem is if you start doing well, then you start grabbing and all of a sudden you're doing like 10 things and you're not doing any of them well. - I have trouble saying no. I have trouble with boundaries.

I haven't, you know, it's a good question. I haven't found the answer to that yet, but you know, the problem with our business is you never know what's going to get made, what's not going to get made and why it gets made. And that's kind of part of the white Lotus story, which I'll get into. But so I'm, I'm a, I maybe have too many projects, but you know, again, you just never know what's going to actually come to fruition and

And producers only get paid in success. So you have to have a lot going to make a living. The timeline of it is always so fascinating to me when people get a deal done. It's crazy. Just getting the deal done. You have to have the meetings. You have to talk people into it when you do it. How many months is that? That's like four to six. Just closed a deal this morning that took eight months.

Right. And why it took eight months. It could have taken two weeks. If people just got on the phone and go, here are the issues. That's eight months. Right. So couldn't tell you why eight months. Best case scenario, four months. Probably somewhere four to eight months, maybe even like a year. Well, I wouldn't against the White Lotus story that actually proves it could be a week. It could be a week.

But that's where the case where HBO loves creators. Yeah. They love Mike. He had an idea and they're like, done, go do it. Let's go. That's an anomaly. Yes. It is an anomaly. It usually takes four to eight months to get a deal done. Right. For whatever reason. So you get the deal done. So let's say four to eight. Yeah. Now you got to start writing outlines, scripts. That could be like another year. Could be another year. Then the studio network will sit on it.

Like when we turned, Mike turned in lights in on a Friday. That's the first show I produced. They greenlit it on a Monday. And I was like, oh, this business is super easy. This is how it works. It's like when the rookie wins the Super Bowl title in the first year and thinks they're going to be back every year. Exactly. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, this is easy. And that is the anomaly. It usually can take a month, two months, three months for a studio network to read something, do the internal economics, budget it.

And then goes to Greenland. So is on vacation. We got, we got to push this to January because Bob's away. Yeah. June, July where it's June, July, for whatever reasons, when kids are, you know, out of school vacation, it's August. August is Toronto. There's a bunch of stuff in August. The meeting gets canceled. Oh, I thought we were meeting Wednesday. We got to push it. When's your next availability? I can't do it. And then that's 10 more days. Right. September is can whatever, like there's something, you know, whatever South by whatever it is. So then it's October. So things take,

so much longer than you think it's going to take. It's the most incompetent system I've ever seen, the way it's done and how hard it is just to get balls going. But then when you actually get going, now you're in the outline process. Then they have to approve that.

Then you're in like, all right, now it's like the giant advanced outline. They have to prove that. Then it's like the first possible pilot script. And that goes, and this could be like another year and a half, right? A hundred percent. And then you, and then you, at some point you go, wait, what are we making? Why are we making this? And you kind of, you hope after a year and a half, you're still excited about the idea you sold. And the idea still makes sense and are still relevant. We're still viable because that's part of the problem. Like culture shifts, things happen, things that,

were interesting a year and a half ago aren't interesting anymore white house plumbers was an idea my dad

My dad's from Hungary. He's an immigrant. He ended up in DC, a doctor. He would call me with this idea for, I'm not exaggerating, five years he called me. And I would go to Whole Foods on Santa Monica and I'd like fill up my food after work. And he just would pitch me this idea. I put him on mute. I wouldn't listen. And finally to get him to shut up, I'm like, okay, I'll come to DC. I'll meet this guy who has some interesting story. Because everyone has an interesting story, right?

So I was on my way to Montreal to shoot something else. I literally land. I left the airport. I gave myself like two hours. When I met this guy and he tells me the story of the White House plumbers. And this is probably 2016.

And I was, I leave the hospital, the guy was in the hospital and I was like, this is an incredible story. - Right. - My dad was right, I fly to Montreal, I think about it for a year, I finally start meeting with writers. - So do you think about it like, what's it like as a movie? What's it like as a scripted, you're trying to figure out the best model for it. - Yeah, and it's funny, it actually comes back to White Lotus season three, which is, I'm on a flight, I see this movie Death of Stalin.

which is an incredible movie, Armando Iannucci. And I'm like, oh my God, this is a, because the story of the White House plumbers and Nixon Watergate is a comedy. It's a tragic comedy. And so I'm like, oh, this would be so funny in this tone. And then I saw Jason Isaacs and I was like, Jason Isaacs is brilliant. And that comes back later in White Lotus. But Jerry West? Jason Isaacs? Yeah. No, didn't he play Jerry West? No, no. No, who played? Oh, that was Jason Clark. Yeah. Got my Jason screwed up.

But this is 2016, right? So then White House plumbers, I pitch it to writers. We pitch it to Woody Harrelson, signs on, pitch it to Justin Theroux, signs on. We sell it. Do you feel like it's like a party where when the first star comes on, then it just becomes like dominoes? Yeah, yeah. Because you're like, once you get the first person on, it's easier to get the second. You're like, oh yeah, Woody's coming to this party. That's what happened with us with 30 for 30. We got Barry Levinson.

And he vetted the whole, once we had him, it made the next like five people easy. But we had to get him to get it going. By the way, I think I'm like 0 for 70 with my 30 for 30 pitches at some point. I don't control it anymore. So this is 2019. We sell to HBO. They're like, we're making this. COVID happens. It's push 21, 2021, 2022. And then all of a sudden, an idea that has never been made in 40 years, I get a call

Oh, you know, there's a Julia Roberts, Sean Penn project called Gaslit that's getting shot the exact same time I'm shooting White House Plumbers, which is the exact same story. And so this idea I've been thinking about for six years, which has never existed,

All of a sudden, my show comes out two months after the exact same show, which is something I can't control. So then at that point, it's like, oh, we're the second Watergate show about G. Gordon Leedy and Howard Hunt. And that's just the difficulty of producing. It's like...

That's something that's so out of my control. You put all this energy into something and then by the time my show comes out, it's kind of an afterthought. We've already seen that show, saw it on Starz. What's your best thing that you had that fell apart but it still haunts you at night? The same way like the 1985 finals haunts me for the Celtics. Yeah, that's a great question.

You don't have to say what the project exactly was, but was there one that you're just like the one that got away? Yeah. Oh yeah. I have several that, that like kind of slipped through my fingers and you kind of think about those for years. And I have probably two of those that I'm like, I just moved a little quicker or just put a little bit more energy into this or, you know, um, yeah, but I, do they die or do they just go in a coma? What happens is people get busy and if you miss a window with people,

Then they're off doing other things. And I had a show that had three...

elements that then went off to become massive stars, but I had them before their thing. And it was in the world of music, which is the world I love and been trying to figure out a show or movie in. And it just was like about to come together and someone hesitated and I didn't push. And then it, then all three of those elements have gone off to become big stars. It's like, so you can't get the band back together. Right. It's just too hard.

It's like having the OKC Thunder in 2010, but when they're on rookie contracts. That's it. Literally, it's exactly it. And I just hesitated. I probably put my energy towards the wrong thing, and then it went away. Is there a moment when you know things are going well because people are now approaching with projects in a way? Can you feel that happening in real time? Yeah. We have a mutual friend. I'm not going to name him. When you start getting certain invites to things, you're like...

Things must be going well. Yeah. Thanks for getting those invites. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, I mean, I think like it's a momentum business. I think people love to chase momentum and, and as you kind of start to build momentum becomes slightly easier, but not. It's never totally easy. It's never totally easy. It's always hard because you always have to have the right idea at the right time, the right configuration of elements. And that momentum makes it easier to get your calls returned or get people attached because

But you still, it always comes down to the writer. It always comes back to that. And, and yeah, but yeah, but yes. So the ways it can go wrong, because we see this when I do the rewatchables research and it's always so interesting with the casting, what ifs, or this movie fell through and then they revitalized it years later, the same idea, but it's with totally different people, a different director, the ways it can go wrong.

Like your music scenario where you have the people, you have the right people in your head, but then too much time passes and you lose them and you just can't find the next batch of people. Or you have it built around a star. There's a delay in the production. Yeah.

something bad happens, you lose the star, and now the studio doesn't want to make it. And then the other one that's the famous one is the person who backed it on the studio side or the Hollywood side, they switched jobs or they got fired. And now the new guy or new lady comes in and it's like, well, that wasn't my project. I don't want to do this. I'm going through that right now. I had a project that we had like nine bidders on, sold it to a studio movie and now to Paramount. And now we're going through like

could you have predicted to, no, this is probably three years ago now that the entire company would be turned over and going through this merger. And so, but yeah, I mean, that's really it. Like, or the star of your movie is going through a divorce and you don't, you know, there's so many elements that kind of come in to making things on set and they're not focused and you're in production. You have the perfect script, the perfect director, but the star is distracted. So they're not giving them the right, you know,

the right performance, but I learned my lesson. So I did this movie with Sydney Sweeney, Immaculate, and basically Euphoria was starting. This is 2023. And they're like, Euphoria's starting February 19th. And you have a moment you're like, okay, we have a six week window with Sydney. The script's not ready. Do we try to rush it into production or do we wait till after Euphoria? And I'm like, I'm not waiting because after Euphoria, who knows?

And by the way, we, so we rushed into production and I'm very proud of the movie. I think the movie turned out great. Yeah. But then euphoria doesn't get shot for two more years. So it's what I was talking about. This was sitting yesterday. I'm like, we were now they're finally back into production two years later, but we rushed into this thing and she killed herself. She worked six to eight weeks that she goes to do the movie with Glenn Powell, works six to eight weeks to get it in before euphoria. And then euphoria doesn't happen for two years. And, but I learned my lesson. I'm not, I'm never going to just wait. You have to like,

When it's, you know, it's a bird in the hand. You got to take it. Yeah. Cause you also see this stuff where, um, like what happened with, uh, Levinson on that show where he starts to do the idol. Yeah. Then the idol becomes this whole thing that ties up. And then that entourage, I'm not entourage, uh, euphoria cast, uh,

they're on hold. They lose the momentum from the series, but that also happens with all these other projects too, where you think, oh, we're going to start as soon as they're wrapped up with season four. And then it's like, oh no, they're actually not going to be wrapped up. Right. You have a whole set and a whole system in place that now is on hold. And then you have to decide whether you want to punt on the actor or not. Right. Exactly. Do you replace them or, you know, and I think it's like, it's, it's an imperfect science, Hollywood, like, and you, you know, on the rewatchables, you're watching these movies and you're,

It's funny. People are like, how do they make it so obviously bad or how do they make such a bad movie? And I think, you know, having made things that aren't as good as they probably should be, I think you're there's there's a great quote from a brought from Project Runway. And I always think about it's from like when the first couple seasons where Tim Gunn is like when you're in the monkey house for too long, you stop smelling the shit.

And like, sometimes you're just like, that's great. You're just like getting in it. And you're, I think about it all the time and you're like, you're in it. And it was like, you're so deep inside of it. You're not seeing what feels obvious from the outside. And so you can watch a movie 10 years later and go, why didn't they realize the third act didn't work? Or this is such bad casting, but sometimes you're so deep inside of it. You stop seeing the shit. Right. And that's, and that's why it's a, it's a tough business. One of the things that I'm always obsessed about, especially, especially,

We've talked about it on the podcast a bunch is why there's so many cooks in the kitchen with these projects. When, especially when you're talking TV and the entire history of TV and what's worked and what's not worked.

It's usually like one vision. It's like a couple executives trusting the person who had the vision and everybody kind of clearing out and letting them do their thing. And that's been most of the great shows we've ever had. And I don't understand why Hollywood just doesn't obey this. Because, I mean, Mike, why don't I talk about all the time? There's three producers on White Lotus. There's Mike, there's me, and there's Mark Kamine, who's our line producer.

And what happens is, you know, the star of the show has a manager. So that manager is a producer. The star is a producer. It's based on a piece of IP. That IP has a producer attached. The writer of that piece of IP is attached. They bring it to a non-writing producer who has a deal at X network or studio. There's two people that work at that company. So all of a sudden you're on notes calls with seven people.

right? And like, when the zoom is so big, you can't fit everyone on your phone. Something has probably gone wrong. Yes. And that's probably not going to turn out well. Then you have seven people who have seven ideas, who have seven interpretations of what good is. And all of a sudden you have a writer who's trying to service seven different people. It's never, it's never going to end up well in all the things I've done that have been successful.

all have one clear vision and you're all in service of that clear vision. I think when there's too many egos and too many people weighing in, it just weighs everything down. We see that on the documentary side too with a lot of the stuff I've been involved with. The more people weighing in, and one of the things I try to do as a producer of those, and it doesn't always work, is you try to funnel the notes through one person so at least they only hear from one voice.

But like when the Celtics thing I just did, which I'm really proud of, I think it turned out great, but there, you know, we had the Celtics, it's their IP. They have notes. You have the NBA, they're going to weigh in with their notes. And then we had our production side. And it's like, if they, if you can pass a tipping point, especially if somebody is

just in the abyss with whatever they're working on. And they're just hearing all these different things and notes are conflicting. It can really fuck them up. Every, it seems like every show runner director or whatever, you're going to hit this dark place with what you're working on and you need at least one person to be like, Oh, I got you. I got you. And that's, that's kind of my role with, with Mike on white loads, but also that's a role that I try to, it's a role I try to service in every production I do, which is

trying to kind of push on bad notes and trying to help creators, writers, directors filter opinions. What do I think, in my own taste, what do I think is a good idea? What do I think is a bad idea? And I think that's really- And picking your battles, right? Picking your battles, always. Maybe give them this one because it's not worth fighting about because I really need to win this one later. A thousand percent. And what is a marginal move? Because it's all tastes, right? Producing is all tastes.

all comes down to like opinion and what what is a what's a lateral move that you can give to a network or studio or whomever to then buy back later on right oh we have a great oh my god just remember we have a great story from from enlightened where the the network was giving was hammering us on this one episode and there was a piece of dialogue

that Mike just loved. It was so lateral. Like, whether it was in or not didn't really matter. For some reason, HBO was hammering us. And we sent them back a cut with it taken out to make them feel good about it. But then we were like, we're going to deliver the line in. So we pretended that we had taken it out. We deliver it with the line in.

And then they didn't notice, of course, because they're probably doing eight different things. Right. They're giving notes. And then we go to the premiere and the network, HBO was like, you know, we should premiere that episode. And it was the episode that we had switched out the dialogue. So we're like, holy shit, they're going to notice in the premiere. And so we play that. And Mike and I are sitting next to all the HBO executives who had given us those notes. And they never noticed. They didn't remember. And then we sent them all t-shirts after the premiere with the line of dialogue. Yeah.

And by the way, they were like, what does that mean? They had no, they have no memory of it. But it's, that's a good example. It's like, you're getting these notes from people and they're like, it's a Monday morning for them. Tuesday morning, they probably forgot what they said. And ultimately you got to trust your creative instincts. And, and by that episode, one of our best episodes we ever did in that line that we took out,

I swear is so often quoted from Enlighten. Wow. Well, you know, part of the problem is people feel like sometimes they just have to give notes. Always. Or else it doesn't look like they gave a shit or watched it or did their job or cared. Yeah. So here's six extra notes just because I want to make sure my email is long enough. Or you have like 19 people on the Zoom, right? And every person is like, if I don't say something, I feel like I'm a loser. So then everyone has to weigh in with something that is like,

Yeah, just to weigh in. And I've been in those positions where you're on these Zooms and you don't really have anything to add, but you feel like you have to. Otherwise, you look like a total loser. Right. Yeah. So it's a weird process. One of the best behind the scenes experience I had was when we did the Andre the Giant doc because they just trusted us. Yeah. And it was, you know, Jason was the director who's great. I don't know if you met him, but we just kind of figured out the framework and it just kind of went smoothly. And it was one of those things where

Afterwards, I was like, man, I wish that's just how it went. It's just like a couple people figuring it out. Everyone else trusts those people. And there you go. And we'll talk about how unique White Lotus is. But we'll take a quick break and then we'll talk about this is a unicorn type of show. Anyway, break. This episode is brought to you by Workday. There are two kinds of people in the world, backward thinkers and forward thinkers. Forward thinkers have plans 15 minutes from now and 15 years from now.

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The perfect kind of TV show from a production standpoint in a lot of ways, you're not relying on a star because you can change the cast whenever you want. You have one person writing the entire show almost as like an eight hour movie. You have a network that completely trusts that person and you kind of have a blank canvas to be like, all right, we have this hotel.

Here's the premise. We're going to dive into this. We can change locations every year. It's a show that I'm sure you probably thought was going to be a one-year show, and now you can potentially do eight or nine seasons of it. And you guys are controlling it, and they trust you. This is impossible. It never works out this way. So why does it ever work out this way? I mean, the reality is White Lotus happened because of a confluence of events that could never be replicated.

And I give HBO immense credit for trusting Mike. And I mean, it's funny. It's like, it's kind of feels like a, one of those bands that are like, oh, you're a one hit wonder, like over overnight success. And you've been grinding for 15 years to make it. Yeah. And so Mike first pitched me a version of white Lotus, probably 2008. We were in Spain together. Yeah.

We were walking in Tarifa, Spain. I'll never forget it. And he pitches me. We're like just walking. And we were there. Paramount, I don't know. Paramount was paying Mike to write School of Rock 2.

And Mike was like, I don't want to. And I was working as Mike's assistant. He's like, I don't want to be in LA. Like, why don't we just go to Spain? I'll write it. You can like do whatever you want and I'll just sit and write and you can like live in Spain. I'm like, I'm single. I'm in my twenties. Yeah. Sounds amazing. So we went off to Spain. We were just walking one day and he pitches him this idea about a hotel show, upstairs, downstairs hotel show. And the central relationship is a couple that's on a honeymoon.

And one is rich, one is marrying into money. And the show kind of starts with the groom returning and the bride is not there and you don't know what's happened. And I'm like, that's incredible.

Wow. So that's 2008? Yeah. Because the whole premise of we're starting this show, but something weird happened. You're going to eventually discover what happened. That's like a very late 2010s premise. And then it's also an anthology series. Yeah. So we go into HBO. We pitch the idea. And the feedback was anthology series are not a thing. It'll never be a thing. Not interested. So why would they say that? Because at that point, it really hadn't been a thing. Because it's like they're talking about like the...

I'm trying to think some of the stuff they did. I guess before True Detective. This is before True Detective. So this is True Detective was really the thing that I think broke open anthology series. Right. So that's 2013 range. Yeah. And I get from their perspective, it's like you're going to start a show. The hardest thing is a pilot, right? Like getting people engaged and interested in characters. And then

To replicate that every season is really hard and get people re-engaged. It's almost impossible. But the funny thing is the model you laid out earlier where you then don't have to rely on a fancy famous cast member. It's actually like a better model. It's incredible. Well, the star of White Lotus is Mike White. That's the star. And so HBO passes and it's an idea just kind of sitting out there.

One of the executives at HBO who heard it then goes to Amazon and kind of goes, oh, what was that honeymoon idea? You know, blah, blah, blah. Why don't we try and do that here? So Mike goes, great. We go. We talk to them about this honeymoon show. And at that point, it was a show about this couple that's traveling from. And I think Mike was kind of inspired. He'd gone on a trip. And Phil Jackson was actually it was actually Phil Jackson who inspired it. The Zen master? Yes.

Mike is not a sports guy. I can't remember which country he was in, but he went from this great hotel to that great hotel to another great hotel within the same country. And Phil Jackson was on the same. He was like, oh, we must have the same travel agent who had booked us into the same exact hotels. So Mike kept seeing him at every hotel. So he was like, okay, this honeymoon couple basically is going to travel to different hotels and they're going to see the same couples or same people. So the same travel agent.

So we go and Mike is in Sri Lanka. He's working on this honeymoon show when everyone at Amazon gets fired. And then they replace Roy Price, who was running Amazon at the time, with another executive. And that executive just didn't get the show. The show dies. So you're calling it the honeymoon show. And the new guy's like, the honeymoon? What the fuck is this? He's out. Gone. So that was our second strike, right?

So that's 2015, 2016. Oh my God. 2019 comes. We had met Jennifer Coolidge in 2006 doing a movie called Gentleman Broncos. Great movie. Underappreciated Fox searchlight movie with Jared Hess and Mike and I, I'll never forget it. We go in, we didn't know Jennifer at the time. We go in to have dinner and we see Jennifer at the same restaurant and she's literally sitting at this restaurant and she has her menu this close to her face. She's staring at the menu.

And we're looking at her across the restaurant. We're like, who is this person? And she is, Jennifer has terrible eyesight. The only way she could read the menu is, I'm not joking. Literally, it's this close to her face. And she's just shamelessly reading the menu like this. And we just kind of fell in love with her. And we became great friends, the three of us. And Mike was always inspired about writing a show for her. So 2019 comes and she, Mike has this idea for a show called St. Patsy. And he writes four episodes of the show.

And we go out in 2019, we pitched this show called St. Patsy, which was about Jennifer Coolidge playing a version of Tanya McQuad, version of like a celebrity actress who's going to an, accept an award in Sri Lanka. And there's a murder mystery. Everyone passes, everyone passes. And we're basically told, you know, Jennifer's not a TV star, whatever it is. So now we have the honeymoon show,

Mike was thinking about. We have the couple murder mystery show. We have Jennifer in Sri Lanka. So those three elements we have kind of simmering. And Mike is being pigeonholed now as like incredibly creative guy, but can't have like a giant show. Exactly. He's not like a big taste guy. He's like a small critics love him type of guy. Exactly. Classic. He's an underdog, really. And he was, everyone looked at him, oh, he's brilliant, but not commercial. Yeah. And Mike and I had been working together at this point for 15 years. We'd made a lot of amazing stuff together.

But nothing had really broken through yet. 2020 comes, Mike writes this great script that was set in Sweden. That was a road trip comedy with him and Aubrey Plaza that Mike was going to star in with Aubrey. Wow. And we get the financing. COVID happens. Financing falls apart. It's July of 2020. Mike is despondent. He goes on a road trip by himself. I go on a road trip to Colorado.

And HBO calls out of the blue. It's July of 2020 and they go, we don't have any programming. Is there anything that is COVID? Yeah, COVID by the way. Is there anything you can do in a COVID bubble that you can do quickly, cheaply that can be on the air in 2021? It was over email. And Mike goes, yeah, I got it. And they go, great, it's greenlit.

Just like that. And Mike literally didn't know what it was, but he had been thinking about these three different shows over the last 15 years. And he combined all those elements and that became White Lotus. And we basically had one- So it's Honeymoon Show, Jennifer Coolidge. And it's a honeymoon show. It's a show that was in Sri Lanka. In some location. Yeah. And I'll never forget. It was like

It was probably August of 2020. We get on a phone call with HBO and they're like, you have 30 days to make this. Good luck. And Mike's like, I'm not going to, I'm not going. And this point also, we had two weeks to find a location. What people don't know is originally we were going to do it in Australia. And basically we found a hotel in Australia, but we couldn't get our COVID vaccines, vaccinations, visas in time.

So we basically were like, we pivoted to Hawaii because it was the one place that we could get in. And God bless Four Seasons Maui. It's the only hotel in the world that said, yeah, come shoot this during COVID. And so- Good career move by the Four Seasons Maui. Great career move. And Mike was like, I'm not going to Hawaii. I'm shooting this in 30 days. There's no way I'm doing a season in 30 days. And I said to him, I go, this is what we're going to do. I've never said this and nature doesn't know this. I go, we're going to show up in Hawaii.

We're going to get them pregnant, as they say in Hollywood. We're going to get them invested. They're going to spend enough money that we're going to go, actually, we need another 15 million to make the show. And he said to me, he goes,

If you're wrong about this, I'll kill you. This is what he said to me. I will kill you. That's going to be season two. Exactly. And so we went to Hawaii. Mike had one script and he didn't even know what the ending was. Mike wrote the scripts without knowing where it was going because we got there in September of 2020. We had to shoot by the end of October. We had basically six weeks for Mike to write the season, cast the season,

Hire crew scouted and shoot it so we have to be done by Christmas to get it on the air 2021 and we arrived and Mike just started writing we were in a 14-day quarantine in Mike wrote almost the entire season in those 14 days Wow, so he's like Bradley Cooper and limitless just cranking it out. Yeah, basically it just kind of poured out of him, but it was really He had been thinking about the show for 15 years. It had been really those elements of things he thought about and

I remember we got to a point where we had 30 days to shoot it. We needed 48 days. And I had to call HBO and go, hey, we're 18 days over budget. It's a lot of money. And to their credit, they go, we'll give it to you. Just go and do it. Well, at that point, they probably had two things going because nobody could film anything. And as I had told you, strategically, they had spent enough money where I knew

It was like a sunk cost or like, okay, we got to give this money to get something out of it. And, you know, I think we, that was the hardest production I've ever been through because, you know,

In Hawaii, that's the point. If you got COVID, you go into a hotel room for 14 days. So during that production, we had so many people get COVID. And that was also a point where if you were close to that person, you go get COVID. So we had actors getting COVID that would go away for 14 days. And we would have to rejuggle the schedule. We would have to shoot seven days. We had to do everything humanly possible. And another thing people don't know is we actually never finished.

We were, it was two days before we wrapped and I was like, okay, we're going to make it through. I get a phone call from HBO that someone has tested positive for COVID. And it was Jennifer Coolidge's assistant who was basically in the room with her every single day. And we were out shooting that famous boat scene where Jennifer's dumping the ashes, which is crying. And I had to call the boat. I wasn't on the boat. I had to call them, the AD and go,

Jennifer, basically, it's like a close contact. You need to come back. Jennifer's going to go into a hotel room 14 days. We're going to shut down right before Christmas. And they turn the boats around. And I'll never forget Jennifer's face coming off the boat. It was heartbreaking because she knew she was going to have to miss Christmas and New Year's and basically be stuck in a hotel room. And we shut down and never finished.

And we basically, which was a gift because then Mike goes and edits the show. And we eventually found like a five-day window in February the next year to bring everyone back. And at that point too, we knew what we were kind of missing. We did some reshoots. Oh. And it was like a gift. Honestly, like at that point, it was like the worst thing that could happen. And it ended up being a gift. We got everyone back somehow. And the rest is history. You skipped over the casting piece of this when you're doing the thing that fast. So obviously the show has...

really good casting, but who does that come from? Is it a team thing or did you hire an awesome casting person or is it just people you and Mike like? Well, Meredith Tucker, who's our casting director, Mike and Meredith went to Wesleyan together. So they're old friends. She's worked, she's amazing. And we have a great, we worked, we've all worked together now for a long time, but it was so quick that we had to cast people we know. And, you know, for me, like Sydney Sweeney,

I met her in 2019 and I had only seen her in Euphoria. It's a really specific character. Yeah. And she comes in and she actually pitches me a TV show that I passed on, which I regret. And I met her in this meeting and I was like, holy shit, she's so different from my character. You meet her in person. And I think people don't understand how good of an actress she is. Yeah. Because if you meet her in person, you go, every character she's playing is so different from who she is.

And so we were casting that part and it was against type, right? Because at that point, she'd only played this character in Euphoria who was very dramatic, not funny. I meet her in this meeting. She's so bubbly. She's so personable. She's so funny in person. And I'm like, she would be so...

Smart in that role because it's unexpected and so that's kind of how that happened Connie Britain was someone that we were friends with And Mike knew for a long time I could work with her before we knew she'd be perfect Steve Zahn was Mike's brilliant idea that he kind of pulled that out of nowhere We were we were having trouble casting apart and he's like what about Steve's on? Brilliant Murray Bartlett we weren't familiar with and that's Mike's brilliance like he

Murray Bartlett auditioned and out of a hundred people, he kind of identified Murray. He just saw it. It would be great. And Alex Adario came in the first second we saw her audition. She like just nailed it. She was amazing. Jake Lacey, same thing audition. We had to do these things really fast. Natasha Rothwell. It's like actually a great example of I'm really close to Natasha's agent. Um, and I wasn't familiar with Natasha. Um,

And Shauna, her agent called me and was like, just hammering me, hammering me, send me some stuff. And Natasha was like, oh, she's, she's brilliant. She won't audition. And we're just like, fuck it. Let's just go. Like that was like, just like we had to pull the trigger. She ended up being brilliant. And so it was really like a combination of people we knew in just quick decisions. And you're thinking this is a one and done. We're, we're out of here. How did we, how do we pull this off? This is finished. Not only that, but like, yeah.

we really, the budgets of white Lotus season one were, were, are minuscule compared to some of their other dramas. We were also like, this could just never air. It was like such a, like, you know, at that point there were like, it was like a COVID experiment. They get a bunch of money to go shoot a show in a bubble. By the way, there was some awful COVID experiments. This was by far the most successful one, I think, but it really was this, this show never happens if not for COVID, honestly, in the COVID bubble. Oh, thank you. COVID. Thank you. Thank you. But, um, yeah, I think that, uh,

If you had told me then, and Mike and I were talking about this the other day, if you had told me five years later, I would be in Bangkok, like at a Marvel-sized premiere, and they're like, we're walking out in front of 5,000 people yelling our names, I would tell you that's impossible. So you finished the show.

HBO loves it. I started hearing about it well before it came out. Like, hey, there's this show we have. It has a chance. Yeah. I knew, you know, because the show was so different, right? It's so out there and it's really just...

you know, it's a lot of conversations around a table and it's, it's, there's not a lot of plot until episode five and then that robbery happens. Nothing really happens. But there's two genius things though. One is that you don't know where it's going and you kind of want to see, but the other thing that plays into the COVID piece is,

You got to go on vacation to Hawaii. Yeah. Which was great. You just got to go somewhere that wasn't like your house with the same family or friends that you were just staring at for the last nine months. And just being completely honest, we didn't think the murder mystery element would be a thing. And we were cutting the pilot and we got a note actually about like, because in the pilot episode, you introduced this idea. Jake Lacey is there talking about the dead body.

And we got to know, like maybe bring that back at the end to call it back. And I remember we were talking about like, oh, well, people aren't going to really, really care about the murder mystery. So calling it back would kind of feel, it's not really about that. And so it was just like, it was just like a creative thing that happened and people kind of latched onto it. And, and for me, it was really exciting. It was a way into what was ultimately a story about existential ideas and being a human and just complexity of life. And, and I knew it's what you, I made the show.

And I also haven't, I've never talked about this, but I went to show three friends of mine and they were the first people I showed the show to. And I showed them a locked version of the pilot that had temp music. And my friends were like, and they're three, they're filmmaker friends. I trust them. And they look at me and they go, this show's not good. And then I go, they're just not good. And I go, what do you mean? They're like, yeah, this is not a good show. They're like, what are you going to do? What, you know, I'm like, and I laughed. I was kind of disheartened. And one of my friends called me

And he'll, he's definitely gonna listen to this interview. He knows who he is. And he's like, the show's really not good. It's not a good show. And I don't know. And I'm just like, I didn't really listen to him. And then the only thing that changed was the music. And that's the show we kind of locked and we, we, that aired. And, and I still make fun of my friends, obviously to this day about it, but,

I knew the show was going to work when we would show people, agents first, like agents of clients. And they would call me and they go, give me the next one. I need the next episode. I was like, okay, I'll see you next time. And they're like, give me the next episode. I need the next episode. Right. At that point, I was like, oh, there's something here that people are kind of hooking into. And, you know, there's, we could never have predicted it would be a success. And let alone we could do three seasons and, you know, fourth season and, and feel very fortunate that HBO trusted us.

And they just trusted in Mike and they were, there was no notes in the creative process because there was no time. They just said, go make it.

And we went off and made something and brought it back to them. And Casey and Franny and Norah Skinner at HBO, they've just known us for a long time and they deserve great credit for just trusting in the creative process. I remember texting Casey about it. Like, "Where's season two?" And he's like, "Mike's never doing a season two. There's no way." I was like, "How do you not do a season two? Just go to a different location." He's like, "Yeah, we know, but Mike's, that's not how he operates. He's not going to do it." So what changed?

I think the response to the show, and I think we just had fun in...

You know, the show really comes out of Mike's passion for travel. You know, he was on Amazing Race. He just loves to travel. Was he on Survivor too? Yeah. He was, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, so much of the show is Survivor. I was going to ask you about that. It does feel like Survivor and White Lotus are not even cousins. They might be siblings. Well, that's a great story of how Mike ended up on... Well, I mean, originally Mike and I applied to CBS for Amazing Race. We were wearing matching blue velour jumpsuits. We shot a stupid video. Yeah.

running around Brentwood. I drove down to El Segundo. I dropped it in the box because Mike and I both love the show and I was Mike's assistant. And we had this idea of like, it would be funny if we went on the show together. CBS called two weeks later

And they recast me. They're like, your dynamic is too Hollywood. We don't really like the dynamic. And eventually Mike ended up with his dad going on Amazing Race. But it was through that experience he ended up on Survivor because he's like, Mike is really competitive in a great way. And I think he just like, he didn't win Amazing Race. And she's like, I'm going to win Survivor. But I think at the end of season one, we just had such a great experience making the show that

And like I was saying before, Mike is really the star of White Lotus. And I think the anthology dynamic allows Mike to be the star and allow us not to be beholden to anyone else's schedule. And it's all on Mike in the writing. And Casey came to us, to Casey's credit, and said, I want to make anything you want to make next. And Mike said, let's do season two of White Lotus. And they greenlit it without hearing Mike's idea. Again, full trust. They didn't know location? They didn't know location. We didn't know location. I mean...

I get asked all the time of the locations. The location process is really organic. But it's a lot easier for season two, I'm guessing. Well, yeah. No, I mean, yes. Easier to find places that give us hotels. To be like, yeah, come here. Yeah.

But it was still hard. It was actually, I thought we were going to shoot in France and we went to Italy as a courtesy to HBO because it was another country that had a great rebate, better rebate than France. We go and we basically saw these crazy heads everywhere in Sicily and Palermo. And this guy told us the story of what these heads meant, the Tessa de Moros. And they tell us a story about this guy who was having an affair and the woman chopped his head off. And Mike kind of got inspired by this idea of doing a show about sexual jealousy. And Sicily ended up being the perfect place.

That would have been a good title, Sexual Jealousy. That's a good title for like a Cinemax movie. You and I sell that. But I mean, season three is- It's like a Shannon Tweed, but now in 2025. Just go with us. But I mean, season three was actually amazing. We were going to shoot in Japan and we went to Thailand as a courtesy to HBO. It's the only other country in Southeast Asia that had a rebate that was like film friendly. And we were in Chiang Mai in the North and Mike got bronchitis.

And he went to the hospital and the nurses there took such great care of him. And he kind of fell in love with Thailand. And they put him on this thing called a nebulizer. And it's this really strong steroid. And he was up for two nights and he hallucinated. And he hallucinated season three of White Lotus. And he gets in the van the next day and he pitches me what he hallucinated. And that's what we shot. What? Yeah. And we were like, we're shooting in Thailand. So by the time we left Thailand, we went to Japan. We knew we were shooting in Thailand. Yeah.

And Thailand itself is like such a witchy place. And you were there for how many months? Like almost a year. Jesus. But I love it. But yeah, that was when I got to know you a little bit and it was, you were just out of it. Yeah. You couldn't follow sports in the same way? Like nothing. I mean, do you remember one of our first Zooms? I thought my dad, I don't know if you remember this. We had like a 5 a.m. Zoom because it was the only time that worked for all of our, the first time we ever met. And I woke up to like a message that my dad was in the hospital.

I don't remember this. And I get on the zoom and we're meeting for the first time. And like I said, I'm, I'm a huge fan of yours and I was so excited to meet you. So I didn't want to cancel our zoom. Yeah. And I woken up like three minutes before a zoom and I get on and I'm like, um, I'm like really shaken. And you're like,

We can reschedule. Yeah. Deal with your dad. My dad was okay. But yeah, I mean, I think that was a tough year for all of us. Just like the time zones and being away from family. Mosquitoes? And the mosquitoes were insane. We all got dengue shots and a couple people got dengue. At that point, you're like, it's a crap shoot. Will you get dengue? Will you end up in the hospital? Like, I don't know.

I would go to work like I was in the 1980s Lakers. I would have socks up to my knees. I don't like... Like Michael Cooper. Exactly. Honestly. So you're worried about monsoons, mosquitoes, wind. There's always the tsunami thing, which is, by the way, not a theme. Always a thing. Season three. But it's coming. Yeah. It's coming. But yeah, I've been watching sports with the hardest because I'm a diehard Lakers fan. I would be on set. And this is the buildup to the playoffs. Yeah.

We're like Nuggets series. And I would, I didn't miss a Lakers game. I had like VPN. I got the ticket. I watched every single Lakers game on set. Yeah. Season playoffs. And I would be at the monitors and I'm a really vocal fan. So I'm there and like, you know, watching the Nuggets series, Joker's hitting like these fucking ridiculous shots over his head. Three pointers follow, you know, falling out of bounds. And I'm like yelling on set. Yeah. I'm not joking. Literally. If you ask any actor from white Lotus season three,

about this. Like I'm literally at the monitors. Oh yeah. I'm at the monitors with my iPad watching what's shooting, watching both at the same time, yelling uncontrollably at Jamal Murray, who I fucking hate as a Lakers kind of blow that series. I should have won that series. But yeah, I mean, sports, I would wake up at like all, all like crazy hours.

wouldn't have missed the Lakers game. And the problem solving. So it sounds like Italy was probably the easiest of the three seasons. Yeah. Hawaii is the hardest. And then Thailand's just a wild card every day. Wild card. Yeah. Hawaii was the hardest just because of COVID. And like, yeah. Also like you didn't know what COVID was at that point. Like how dangerous it was. And I'm a producer. I'm not like an epidemiologist. Yeah. And people are looking at you like, oh, you're a producer. You should have the cure for COVID or no, you know. So like people are coming to me for COVID advice. Like,

Plus producing advice. So it was a very tough spot to be in. And in season three, where Cotton got more into a groove, just the elements of Thailand, the heat, mosquitoes. You said it's your favorite season. It's the best season.

I'm really excited for people to watch it. And your three friends think it's another shitty season. Yeah, of course. It's really slowly paced. It really sucks. By the way, you know, our dear friend, Michael Lasker, who I love, he called me last night and he was like, yeah, I love the season. I'm on a text thread with people. They're talking about how slow it is. And I'm like, one, why are you telling me this? You know, Lasker, you can't help him. Uncontrollably, you can't help him. Well, he's got opinions. Yeah. But, you know,

It's annoying to hear people go, oh, it's so slow because each season is paced the same way. By the way, it's not slow. You need to watch. Unfortunately, and we have to do this for the recap pods.

you kind of have to watch them twice to, to kind of absorb everything that's in there. Cause it's like this dense, all this hidden shit going on and you can't just like watch it while you're like on your phone. Cause you know, like I honestly, like I love, I love, I love you. I love the ringer. I love, I listen to all the reviews of the things I do. True. And so when you got, you texted me and you're like, Oh, I watched the first episode three times. I told Mike White that I'm like, okay, it's going to be, people are going to like it. Bill watched it three times.

I mean, something's going on. But I'm really excited for people to see where it goes because it is completely unexpected. It's a little demonic. That's what Mike and I talk about. It's the most demonic of all the seasons in the best way possible. Well, I mean, see, we don't have to spoil episode three, but snakes, fires, and tsunamis are some of the dream visuals going on in the third episode. And that's what's exciting is the plot hasn't even really kicked in yet. So

There's so much unexpected stuff to come. Yeah. And I love the cast, like Patrick Schwarzenegger, Jason, Parker, the three women there. Everyone is just great people. It was a really, really, really amazing experience. So you're almost doing like the Belichick salary cap move where you're just getting these awesome veterans to be like the middle linebacker, but you don't have to like...

shoot your wad on Ryan Reynolds. But because ultimately it comes back to what we were saying before, like Mike is a star. Yeah. And it is kind of like, it's kind of like OKC, like they have this culture that they built. I was talking about this with someone the other day, honestly, like with Tommy, our mutual friend. It is like OKC has built an incredible culture

around that team and people buy in. And that's kind of what we've tried to build with White Lotus, which is this is a show everyone- You don't think LeBron's built that kind of culture? Why didn't you use LeBron as an example? No comment.

And I think it's like, Mike is a star. It's Mike show and people are signing up and they're coming to do this show because they're believing in what we're making. And everyone is at MFN. Everyone's getting paid the same. Everyone has the same trailer. Everyone has the same exact status and across the board, all of us. And we're kind of, everyone is choosing to be there because they want to make a great show, not because of the money, not because of anything else. And you kind of feel that on set. It's really, it's funny. I've,

I was... Body language bill is my favorite thing I've... And I was...

I would think about that as it relates to like actors and white Lotus in, in the casting process, you can kind of feel people's body language. Really? Yeah. Like that they're there. Cause their agent told them to be there because they know it's a good show, but they don't actually watch it. Why they're there and like how hard they're fighting for those parts. And, and, and it's funny on set. I was thinking about body language says so much. I remember like, as I'm a dire Broncos fan, I remember going to see Jay Cutler play live. And I just remember he threw like a,

a you know a pick in the end zone and i remember his body language walking off the field i'm like oh he sucks like and i remember when they traded i was so happy and like that the body language says so much about people and i was thinking about that as it relates to this season and this was a really hard show to make with the elements in thailand and people were so committed

And the body language and the energy every day was so good. And I think that comes through in the show and it comes through in people's performances. And I think it comes through. And by the end of the season, I hope people agree with me. But yeah, I do think it's the best season we've done. And Mike's no help. He's right in every single line. Every single one. I mean, well, Mike, I mean, Mike's Mike's the genius. Right. But it was funny because at one point when they were during like one of the I forget when the writer's strike was and one of the things they were talking about how

Oh, this one, they don't have a writer's room. It's like, yeah, because it's like an eight-hour movie. He doesn't need a fucking writer's room. But also, this is the thing. Mike, I've been working with Mike for 20 years. Mike is authentically himself. And I think the key to being successful, I think, as a producer or a writer is knowing your strengths, knowing your weaknesses. Mike's weakness is being in a room with writers. And Mike's weakness for him, that's just not how he...

approaches the creative process. And he's not critical or judgmental of anyone else's process. Right. But the thing, he had a mental break. The last time he ran a room, he had a mental breakdown and ended up in a mental hospital. And he talks about it a lot. And that was because of the process. For him, he just doesn't...

He doesn't exist in that process. But why wouldn't people just think of it as a seven hour movie, which is what it is. Yeah. And of course he, what Mike is saying is anyone can do whatever they want. I just need to do my process. And he was like, I'm never returning to TV. And he returned to TV to do enlightened because HBO said to him, you don't need to have a writer's room. You can do it on your terms. Yeah. And that's how I was able to do it. And so I think Mike, um, yeah, I mean, like what he does, I don't know how he does it. And, um,

he's again, like it's, he's a genius. And the two people, I don't know how they do it or him and Taylor Sheridan. Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand how Taylor Sheridan is producing this much content.

I don't know. It really does feel like, like I made the limitless joke before, but he really does feel like the limitless, like we're going to find out he found some sort of something. That or he's going to, he has an Adderall addiction and he's going to go to rehab at some point in the next five years. I don't know how he does it. Or his body naturally produces Adderall. Exactly. There's something going on with him. I think, but Mike, you know, Mike is focused on one thing. He wants to do one thing really well. He doesn't want to spread himself thin. And I think that all saying no, kind of what we were talking about at the beginning, he

is a superpower of his. He knows his limits and he has to focus on one thing. And he pours, that's the thing that people don't realize. He pours every inch of his life into making White Lotus at the cost of personal friendships, family. And he cares about every, we'll be in a mix in episode four of the season, you know, and he'll hear something and he will, he's so focused on the attention to details that nobody else is thinking about.

So is the number one thing that happens to you at the show, people suggesting locations for the next season? Yeah, of course. Like that or my other favorite thing is- Because if my wife came in right now, she'd be like, why don't you guys do a skiing season? By the way- Go to like Switzerland. Mike doesn't like the cold. That's why we'll never do it. So we'll never do it. I feel confident we'll never do a season in the cold. You're not going to do a ski season? Mike's not built for, he's a California guy. He's not built for the cold.

But never say never, but I would be surprised. But yeah, I think part of the best part or one of the best parts of my job now is hotels are calling me because they're like, Mike says, I got the runoff.

Mike says no. Well, definitely work with that Italy hotel became one of the hottest hotels in the world. But I'm telling you, every hotel is now offering to fly us to see the hotel. So I get Mike's runoff. They'll offer to Mike. Mike will go no. And they go, who's second? Okay, let me go down the call sheet. So I'll get the phone calls and they'll be like, we'll send a plane. We'll fly you to X city. You're like a VIP at a casino. They're sending you the private plane so you can come gamble there. Honestly, it's like, that's the, and I love to travel. So it's like,

So now it's like, how do I say yes to all these things? And I think the next couple of months, I'm going to be flying all over the country and looking at all over the world, looking at hotels. And do you figure out the location first or do you figure out the idea?

And that's kind of what I was saying about the Thailand story. I think there's a... First is the theme. Like, we knew season 3 wanted to kind of explore Eastern philosophy and kind of bigger existential religious ideas. Yeah. And so we knew it had to be Asia. And we didn't really land on the series until we landed on Thailand. And I'm not exaggerating. Mike hallucinated the season. And so...

It came very organically. And so I think season four, we have, I know what the themes are. I won't talk about it, but so I know we have. Oh, so you know it. Okay. Yeah. We have a general, we have a general concept and then we'll go scout

cities that could make sense for the general concept and I think the Season will present itself once we land in sea hotels. So Mike could be like season 4 is about adultery That's that's what I'm excited about. Okay. Yes think about locations. That would be a good adultery location exactly But it's funny because Mike part of his genius as a writer. He's always paying attention for example

you know, we were in Bangkok and I went and had drinks with someone. We were scouting. And this person was talking to me about these like bald guys who come to Thailand and they're like dating these young women. And she's like, yeah, we call them LBHs. You're just filing it away. Yeah. So I go in the van the next day and I'm like, so funny, I'm out with this girl. I was out and she was talking about LBHs, losers back home. And I just kind of say it as a funny anecdote.

Mike files that away and then it pops up episode one, the LBHs. And he's always paying attention and he's always kind of just like observing. And there's so many things that happen in the show that I'm like, I think maybe somehow I...

or somebody in our group unintentionally inspired it and whether he's making fun of us or, you know, unclear. So that's it. So if he does season four, there's a podcaster will feel like he's making fun of maybe this podcast we're doing right now. You never know. Somehow some character will end up on a podcast. Me. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. He'll have a general concept. We'll go travel and then ideas will sprout and it'll kind of focus where we're headed and what he's writing. This is the part of the podcast where I pitch a,

a white lotus character for some season and it's awkward and you end up not doing it um

I just feel like an NBA player going on vacation is the all time, just sitting there idea, which then you could really get involved with. I don't know if Mike cares, but these, I was thinking about it during all-star break, all these guys went away and they went like a couple of guys you could see, like, we're like almost a little sunburned, but I was thinking like, this would, this is where I would love white Lotus to go one year is have like a basketball star. And we could all try to guess what pieces of stars you took to make this star.

what did you see Luke the video of Luca banging three like he took also break to go off and just start banging threes right he went to Cabo right yeah yeah just banging all it's

It's funny because no matter how successful I am in Hollywood, film, TV, meeting an athlete, any athlete is still the thrill of my life. Yeah. So I love this idea as an excuse to cast out... Just to hang out with athletes. Yeah. And then it's like, do we get a real athlete? Do we get a fake athlete? Because the other one I was thinking was quarterbacks would be a good one too. They're in the off season. They go away. They bring whoever and you could have...

of the guy brings his wife, but also his girlfriend's staying somewhere else in the hotel. And you got that whole thing going. Well, I'll tell you a funny story, which is season one, my lowest we're in Maui four seasons. Maybe, you know, this, maybe you don't, which is that is like the Lakers hotel. So, so I am a, it's like, if I had to, no, I'm never going there, but I'm going to say like magic Johnson is my idol.

I like grew up writing letters to him when he retired. I bought, I was like inconsolable. Like I had to, I think I skipped school. He is my hero. And if I had to like liken myself really to a basketball player as a producer, it's Magic Johnson. Unselfish. Unselfish. So we are at the Four Seasons and I think somehow we hear that Magic Johnson is staying at the hotel.

And I tell Natasha Rothwell and I tell Jennifer Coolidge, oh my God, I mean, Magic Johnson is my little brother is there. And my little brother knows better than anyone, John, how much I love Magic Johnson. So they're like, you're going to meet Magic Johnson. And I'm like, I don't know. And like, I'm walking to the hotel. I see him with Cookie. They're walking to the lobby and I freeze up. Like I can't do it. The next day I'm on set and I get a call from Jennifer Coolidge and she goes,

You know, Magic just left the hotel. He tipped everyone. The staff love him. They just told us he's leaving. They're like, you need to come down here. Come to the lobby. You're going to meet Magic Johnson. And I'm wearing like all the COVID mask. Like I have long hair because we haven't got our haircut. I run down the lobby. I'm just sitting in the lobby now. And I'm like, this is my one moment to meet Magic Johnson. And there comes Magic Johnson with Cookie and he's with the manager who I've gotten to know. And so I go up to him. I go up and I introduce myself and

And I'm now the 11 year old version of myself. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, great to meet you, Magic. I love you so much. And, you know, I'm a producer. And I basically tell him how much he's changed my life and how much he means to me. And I bump, like, I'm just like a moron. And he goes, he goes, wait, he's like, wait a second. Like, who are you? What do you do? And I basically tell him, so I tell him, like, I'm producing a show, White Lotus. And this point,

No one knows what Lotus is, you know? And I basically tell him how much he means to me. And he's like, do you want to take a photo? I take a photo with him. And of course it's now framed on my wall. And I think to this day now, I'm like, I wonder if he's seen the show. Oh, I promise you he's seen the show. Magic watches all the TV. But he must be like, cause he must've been like,

Who the fuck is this idiot, like grown man talking to me like he's a little boy. By the way, this happens to magic every day, like seven times a day. So I watched it a bunch of times. But it was amazing. People melt into puddles when they talk to him. Plus he's gigantic. I mean, you're tall, but he's...

It's, it's, you just can't believe he's, he's six, nine and he's right there. But it's also like, yeah, I'm like, I reflected on what I said to him. Like, wow, what an idiot. I'm like, I produced the way you play basketball. I'm just, you know, like, but anyway, I, but, but point is we're going to get an athlete season four. I'm going to figure that out. You've inspired me. I don't know what the right sport is, but it, I feel like it has to be NBA or football. Well, I mean, I take so many meetings with that. Cause again, like,

I want to do something with athletes. And I've been trying to talk Travis Kelsey into something. That's my dream is to do a show or a movie with an athlete. - Well, our friend Tommy, Tommy Alter, who people know from this pod 'cause he was involved with it for a long time. But he said from the moment Travis Kelsey did SNL,

He's like, this guy's going to be an A-list action movie star. I'm calling it now. He planted his fight. He was the first one who pointed his flag. Oh, yeah. No. Because I feel like we need it. Like, carry on.

I know a crush for Netflix. I didn't really love Taron Egerton as the lead. We're missing like these guys that like I grew up with in the 80s, 90s. These little bit of unintentional comedy, but can act like just barely good enough. But they're also like physical and awesome. I'm doing a movie with John Cena next. Like John Cena is that. But like what's annoying is

I'm a season ticket over to the Broncos. I love the Broncos. Of course, I know very well about Travis Kelsey. He's been killing us for 15 years. CA calls me and they go, come meet with Travis Kelsey. This is before he was dating Taylor Swift. And I'm like, obviously, he's like, we'll meet with you in Kansas City. You have to come out for a game. I'm like, obviously. In between then and when I finally go out, he's now the biggest star in the world. So I kind of feel like I missed that a little bit. But Travis Kelsey is...

so funny so charming so personable when he's ready to kind of focus himself with acting he's going to be a big star it would have been funny if you caught him like during white lotus season one and he was just like working for murray bartlett he was like the 20th guy in white lotus just came down to hawaii to hang out but that's that's actually one thing i was like i kind of feel like now it's like so obvious but i feel like i was a little early and then i missed that boat a little bit but

Travis Kelsey. But I think he'll... When he wants to, he'll be a big star. He'll be John Cena. John Cena is so funny, so talented, and has that physicality of the stars that were, you know, 80s, 90s. Did we hit everything? Yeah. That was like an hour. You can always come back. Oh, yeah. People like White Lotus season three? They're happy with it? Except for your three buddies, those fucking assholes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, like, our Rotten Tomatoes is... Rotten Tomatoes. Come on. You don't look at Rotten Tomatoes, do you? I don't... If I was...

It's pathetic how much I consume response to the show. Like, I will... I don't know. Like, I will... I will sit on Twitter. I will read all the comments. Oh, don't do that. I can't help it. I'm also really... I'm actually really interested in people's theories on what happens this season. And I'm kind of consumed by...

people's theories. It's really fun. It's like, well, that's why we did the pod the way we did it this year. Cause I love that the one at a time. That's the only way to do it. You really have to like, Oh, I think. And then an episode later, you're completely wrong. I'll be honest with you. I, I, and I mean this genuinely, I really value your opinion. Oh, thank you. I do both on sports, but also on film and TV. And so I was really nervous to listen to the first episode, your ring, the, your episode about white Lotus. So other than that,

other people listen to it. And I asked, I was like, is it positive or negative? I didn't want to like, I just, I wanted to know it was okay. Cause like, I care about what you think. And so I was very excited to know that you liked the show.

I like going on vacation with shows and people being in the right hands of creators. And that like this show is perfect because I've never been to Thailand. I'm never going, especially after hearing some of the things that happened to you when you were there. I'm just never going. I told my wife she's reconciled it. She could take my daughter. Well, what's cool is you get to see a lot more of the country as the show goes on this season. And maybe we'll seduce you by the end.

There's no safari. That's not on the list, right? African safari. We talked about that. We talked about that as a potential. Yeah. Cause that's the great thing about the show. You have all these locations, you have fucking 10 seasons. It's a dream, but also it's like, where do you want to live? Like lifestyle is part of the decision-making cause you're, you're there for a year. And so like, you know, we've talked about different continents and, and kind of nothing in America though.

Maybe we'll come back. We talked about it at some point. Could do like Yellowstone, but then it's cold. Yeah, you know, it depends on time of year. But what's really fun, what's been fun about this season is also Thailand's a place that people don't really know and they're familiar with it from like the hangover. Yeah. And it's been really amazing seeing the response and broadening the understanding of Thailand and Thai culture.

beyond the surface level, beyond full moon party or sex tourism or whatever it is, which is an element of Thai culture, but it's not Thai culture. And it's been really great to see a country that's, you know, that needed the exposure. And they've really, you know, they've really responded to that. And they've been so, um,

warm to us. And Mike told me yesterday, he met the prime minister and came. He was like, if I asked him for a passport in his citizenship, I feel like they'd give it to me. But it's been really exciting to kind of put a country on the map that hasn't really had that exposure. And that's kind of maybe part of our calculus going forward also. It's like, what's an undiscovered gem and what are places that people aren't that familiar with? All right, we'll leave on these two things. One, Luca, you must be over the moon. I remember, I mean,

I like everyone. It was like midnight, 1205. I get a text from my little brother and he texted me something. I was like, did like the Lakers die in a plane crash? Like what happened? I was like, he just sent me basically. He's like, wow, Lakers. I was like, what does this mean? I go on ESPN and I'm like, it took a second. I love Anthony Davis and I think he's so underappreciated. The Anthony Davis zag. No, no, no. But, but,

I mean, like what the last, what it was against the, the, the nuggets game or like, oh yeah, this team is going to be good. And also just like, he plays like he's like magic Johnson. He has, he just plays in the same way. So bad. Oh yeah. Which I mean, he's already skinnier. It took like a week. Like it feels like he already lost, like it's like the ultimate, it's like Liam Neeson and taken. Like they basically, he's basically like, I'm going to, I'm going to the next 15 years. He's basically going to fuck the league up and,

As a Lakers fan, as someone who goes to games, I am so excited to see him play. I was, I had tickets to that, that Saturday game where we thought that Luke was going to play. And I like, I had canceled all these plans. I got, I had tickets and I was ready to go. And then the last second, they, they moved his, like his first game to the 10th, which was the white Lotus premiere. And for like five seconds, I'm like, do I skip my own premiere to go see Luke go play? Yeah.

It's like, is that something I do? But yeah, I'm very excited about Luca. It's exciting to be in LA for this. - So your life is basically people talking about the Luca trade with you, people suggesting White Lotus locations, and then people trying to set you up. Those are your three things. - Honestly, that's it.

That's genuinely consuming way too much. But White Lotus is a hot show. You're probably getting some good offers for setups. I've heard rumors. No comment. Yeah. That's a nice one to drop at a party when you're talking to somebody. What do you do? I'm an EP on White Lotus. I tend to. I mean, I have good friends who somehow seem to work that into every intro. My whole identity now is the White Lotus producer.

That is my identity and going forward, which I can't complain, which I'm very fortunate. - It's a nice hook for you. All right, Dave, good luck with the rest of the season. - Thank you for having me. - Nice to see you. Thanks for coming over. - Of course.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Sheil and Dave. Thanks to Kyle and Saruti and Gahal. As always, don't forget, you can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify and you can also watch on our YouTube channel, the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. New rewatchables as well if you missed it. Crash, that's up there. And then White Lotus, if you're in on that show, we've been covering it on the Prestige TV podcast. Me, Mallory, and Joanna doing the recap pods. And then afterwards, during the week,

Rob Mahoney, Joanna Robinson with their Deep Dive Theory podcast. So we have all that going. And I love that show. And I'm glad Dave came on. Anyway, I will see you on this podcast on Thursday.

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