Atlanta’s Options, PG-13’s Future, Advice for GSW, Edmonton’s Comeback, and the Karen Read Trial With Ryen Russillo
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Coming up, the NBA draft is Thursday. Oh, and it's also Wednesday. And we're still in our going to talk about it next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I

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In hand. The WNBA is so hot. We just launched a ringer WNBA show podcast. Yeah, that's happening. You know what goes well with it? Make a little ultra. The taste, super smooth. Low calories and carbs. Why not save on calories if you're drinking a good beer? I like to keep it nice and cold. It's just really good. And you got the WNBA finals, like all kinds of crazy matchups. Might have the two best teams in the league playing in round two.

It's going to be amazing. We'll see how far Kate and Clark goes. You're not going to want to miss a moment. Stock up on Michelob Ultra for the WNBA finals. Michelob Ultra, superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2024, Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I have new rewatchables coming for you. It is the last episode of 70s Sports Movie Month. We did Slapshot.

We did Longest Yard. We did Breaking Away. Three of the OGs. So then obviously we had to do Bad News Bears. The kids, sports movie, really for adults that started it all. And we talk about it. Me and Van Lathan, we hit everything. I had a great time. It's coming Monday night. And actually...

Starting this week, we're going to be putting up second episodes during the week because we want to burn off some of those rewatchables 1999 episodes that we did five years ago. We're almost at the five-year max for when we can run those, but we did some really good episodes. We're going to start running those as the second episode

every week throughout the summer. Stay tuned for that. Don't forget to check out the Ringer NBA show, the Ringer NBA draft show, the mismatch, all of our NBA shows, because this will probably be the last fun basketball stretch for a while. Got 10 days here, draft, trades, free agency rumors, free agency signings, and we're going to be covering it all on theminger.com, a great website as well.

and on all of our podcasts. Coming up on this one, Brian Russo and I are going to talk about everything we're hearing heading into the NBA draft. And we have a bunch of fun segments. We planned this out beautifully. It's time to bring in our friends, Pearl Jam. ♪♪♪

All right, taping this 4 o'clock Pacific time on Sunday. Ryan Rosillo is here. The last time we potted, we were wondering if the Celtics were going to show up for Game 5 of the finals. It seems like a million years ago, there's been a Game 5 title win, a parade, some really fun Celtics moments. We're not going to talk about the Celtics. We're going to look forward. We're going to talk about the draft, some trade rumors we heard. We have a bunch of fun topics. We're going to do a little Oilers-Panthers Game 7.

Near the end, you finally caught up on the Karen Reid trial. So I'm excited for this one. We're going to start with a zag. Paul George, some smoke now as we do this on a Sunday that maybe he's not going to be on the Clippers next year. And as always with this stuff, I cannot tell what's real and not real. I just know that there's a bunch of teams now that feel like they might have a chance, whether to sign him outright or to maybe trade for him or whatever. And people are looking at the Clippers.

What are they thinking? They've never made the finals with Paul George. Are they going to pay Kawhi and Harden and Paul George all this money? Paul George heading into year 15. All the stuff we talked about in the past. What's your shit detector level for this story? Because it could always just be the posturing and it ends up he just signs with the Clippers. He also has his own podcast. He has CAA behind him. They love to create some drama as we head into events. So I'm cautious.

But I do feel like he's the biggest domino right now. So what are you thinking about it? Yeah, a lot to get to with this one. I thought it was interesting that on his podcast, he talked about how Harden told him Daryl Morey's a liar and players talk. And I was like, you realize you're

hurting your own leverage option here by saying like with the most with the team that has the most leverage for you to use I know we're getting into this but like there's been a lot of slip ups lately yeah with all of this access that we have to players like I thought there was one that I sent you where Rich Paul was doing this really front-facing media thing about Bronny James and like

well, maybe Minnesota who likes him, but we don't know what the ownership is going to be. I'm like, I don't know if that's like the number one thing for Bronny at this stage of like, is your ownership secure? Yeah. He talked about Toronto and Masai being an uncle and all that stuff. But I thought it was really interesting when he said, hey, if this was about him playing with LeBron, then we just forced the Lakers to take him at 17. And I

And I went, hmm, that's a slightly different tune than when you tell us all the time LeBron has nothing to do with front office stuff, has nothing to do with the coach. And it was a very straightforward, we'd tell the Lakers to do this. And I went, well, wait, that's the exact opposite tone of everything you said. So anyway, back to the Paul George thing. I love all the access because we get some different thoughts on it. I think it's pretty clear, Bill, and you'd probably agree that

And he's not been happy about this negotiation for a long time. Like, I'm sure he and CAA felt like, okay, the four-year max, like, this is who I am. This is what I'm going to do. I know Kawhi took a little bit less, but I'm just supposed to get that. It's Balmer. I'm just supposed to get that. And clearly, that's not what the Clippers want to do with him.

So this has been a longstanding thing because it could already been done. And clearly the Clippers don't want to just hand them the blank check that you're supposed to get for the four year max. I can't tell how much of this is. We don't want to do anything different for you than we already did with Kawhi. How much of it is? Well, Kawhi Harden, Paul George, second apron. It's starting to get a little scary. Let's see how this plays out for three years instead of four.

Or the Clippers are looking at it going, you know, we kind of didn't win anything with this nucleus. Maybe we have a chance to turn the asset. The team that has been floating around, and I don't know how real it is, but I think there's an equal sense of desperation on their side is Golden State.

because Golden State, and this is, it's been reported, people know about it, but I actually feel like it should be the top story. Anytime we're talking trades, it should be the first thing mentioned. Golden State with this situation with Chris Paul's contract. So on June 28th, they either have to guarantee Chris Paul's contract for next season, which is $30 million, or they have to buy it out for $5 million. So it's still a trade asset. The problem is

You can't trade him this week and then the new team can say, oh, cool, we'll just waive Chris Paul's contract and we'll wipe that $30 million off the books. The contract has to be guaranteed by the new team. But the Clippers, who are a second apron team, and it gets really hard to make trades with second apron teams, the Warriors would also be a second apron team if they kept Klay Thompson. But if they get rid of Klay Thompson, all of a sudden they're not.

which means that there's two possible Clipper trades that they could do for Paul George. One is they could combine Chris Paul, that contract Clippers would have to guarantee it next year, with Kaminga, with Gary Payton for Paul George. The other one is you take Chris Paul with Draymond Green, you trade him the Clippers, and they send back Paul George and P.J. Tucker. And I think they could do that.

If they can't, then we only have the first option. But that is how the Warriors can get Paul George. They would have to basically guarantee Chris Paul's contract next year. And then they would have to make it work with like Kaminga and Payton and make it so that it is almost exactly where Paul George's salary is. And then it works. And tell me if you agree with me.

If you're going state, like you have this once in a generation ticket with Curry. Are you really going to waste that? Like, are you just going to say, ah, we had a good run. We won in 22. Now let's have the mid 2010s Kobe retirement tour for the rest of the decade. Basically. I don't think they want that. I don't think he wants that. So I'm watching them the most with, with trade week here. How about you?

Yeah. Look, you can not want a lot of things. It doesn't mean you get those things. And I'd agree with you that they probably owe it to Steph more than any franchise owes a single player in the NBA of like, look, you're still really good.

and there's a two-year window, that's its own topic of like, how's that going to look? Are they just going to extend them and then go, we never want another uniform, even though we know long-term, we might not even have enough around you. And then maybe that leads all different stuff that we're speculating on. Again, we've got time for that one. But it's funny because in the past,

Paul George was offered for Klay Thompson when he was still with the Pacers. Kevin Pritchard was offering Paul George everywhere. And even if you at that time, I think the consensus would have been, OK, wait, Paul George is better than Klay Thompson. But what you're doing is you're trading your non-problem for the Paul George problem. Well, fast forward a bunch of years. And if you look at the Warrior situation, like there's all these players. We could talk about Jimmy Butler. We could talk about Paul George everywhere.

there's some lesser people like Levine or Kuzma or whatever. It's like, well, how do we, if you're the Warriors, how do we raise just our level of talent? Doesn't guarantee us anything. Paul George may not even fit our movement and all the stuff that we're doing, but based on the options and what we'd have to actually invest in the player on top of everything else, whether it's a Butler extension or a Paul George extension,

At this point, I think you're so desperate with where you are in the limitations you have financially, the lack of assets around the people that you don't want to even move, where it probably starts to make a little bit more sense because now you're not looking at yourself as some perfect engine where you don't want a non-Golden State Warrior type basketball player to disrupt what you're doing. You're looking for anybody to be just way better than what your second or third options have been.

And that leads to the clay decision that they're going to have to make. Like when you mentioned Chris Paul and Draymond, I don't think you have to give up that much because George is going to be able to say, look, much like the Chris Paul scenario in 2017 with the Clippers going to the Rockets, you can either trade me to this team, which I'll opt in and then get an extension later, or you're going to lose me for nothing. Well, we saw Philly have that with Harden, right? Harden could have opted out for free agency. We didn't have the same kind of teams with cap space that we do this year.

But he opts in and then it's like, yeah, trade me. And what does Philly end up with? They end up with Batum and Covington and they get a couple of picks. And I was it. I think they got less than maybe they were hoping. I think the Paul George thing is a little different because there's more suitors for him. Right. Like it's not just Golden State. I think the Lakers like what if is there a possible LeBron Paul George swap a route?

Is that conceivable? I don't know. Like if you're Balmer, could you get super excited about that? Cause you got the arena open up. You didn't, and you just flip those guys. Maybe even give more assets for that. If you're the Rockets. Do you think the Lakers would want LeBron in a Clippers uniform? Even if it meant Paul George? I don't know what they meant. This is the same franchise that put out like a two sentence farewell to Jerry West, who was one of the greatest Lakers of all time. Jerry was a very valuable person. Thank you. We're going to miss him. Houston,

I just think they're in play for anybody at anything because of all the, they're the most three for one type of team we've seen in a while. And then Orlando and Philly just have the cap space to sign them. And that's the scary part if you're the Clippers, because unlike the Harden year with Philly, it was, it was one of those, well, where are you going to go, James? Right.

Where are you getting that money? Because Dallas is re-signing Kyrie. We're going down the line. Who is the cap space you're looking for? Houston pivoted away from you, got Van Vliet and Brooks. You don't have the team. There are two teams in this case. And then three if he just wanted to get a lot of money from Detroit, which I don't even know if Detroit would want to do that. But the Golden State scenario, I think, is the most interesting to me. Would you agree, though, that they probably don't have to do... If you're getting Kaminga back in this...

Or is it a way to get off Draymond? I mean, we were going to do a what would you do later with Golden State. We could just do it now because it's not that long. There's three paths. They could just get rid of Chris Paul, just not re-sign him. They could let Clay sign with somebody else.

They could package Chris Paul, which Rayvon and try to trade him for Paul George or somebody like that and just try to get rid of all three contracts and basically just move into the next phase and just say, you know, we built our building. We've won four titles. We won in 22. We're going to go with Steph and the young guys and we're bidding goodbye to that era. Or you go the other way and you say, we're going to use this Chris Paul contract. We're going to keep paying this crazy luxury tax second apron thing that, um, you know, that,

Last year, I think they set the record for the highest tax number anybody had paid. And we're just going to keep doing that because we're the Warriors and because we have Steph. And if that's the case, then use the Chris Paul thing. Because otherwise, you're paying him $30 million basically to be your ninth man and to be a trade asset in February. I don't see how they would do that. Well, there's no way they're going to do that because they're at $174 million with Chris Paul and Looney where that option for $8 million plus million is tomorrow.

And then that's with Santos under contract. So they're at 174. And that's not even covering Clay yet. No, that's without Clay. So the cap for next year is 141. The tax is 171.3. The first apron is 178. So as soon as you do a deal with Clay and the reported deal that he wasn't interested in, what was two years and 48 million. So I don't know. But we did this last year with Draymond where they were like, he's going to leave. It's not enough money. It's not happening. And then all of a sudden,

he was re-signing for four years. I don't trust any of the Clay reports, do you? Not when the numbers, like I just feel like we're hit over the head with numbers. I mean, it happens in media too with guys that do our jobs where this number just gets floated and everybody freaks out. It's the Boris thing. Just floated absurd number because like remember with Draymond, you're going, wait, are you really going to go like four years, 160 for him? And then it turns out to be like, oh, three for a hundred. But you probably felt better about Draymond a year ago than you feel about Clay recently.

present day, correct? Yes. Listen, there's a scenario where they just let Clay, Clay leave and they let Chris Paul leave. And they're just like, you know what? We looked at the West. We looked at the East. Like we have no chance to compete against a team like Boston or wherever, um, OKC is going, um, Minnesota, Dallas. We just, we can't swim in that pool anymore. And we're trying to be realistic about it. We're not going to chase it. We didn't even make the playoffs last year.

What's got, what's really going to be different for us. What's what could be different as if they made like a huge swing at Paul George or, you know, you mentioned a couple of those names, right? It's like Paul George and Jimmy Butler is tier a tier B is talking yourself into Brandon Ingram, who I think has more value than Zach Levine, but Steve Kerr coach Brandon Ingram on team USA. And by the end of the thing, Brandon Ingram is like, yeah, he's not going to play in the last two games. Um,

and Zach Levine where you could almost argue that's a negative asset. And then the third tier would be, let's just rebuild and just Curry will sell out the arena and that's what we're going to do. And we have no chance to win the title. My guess is they're too competitive to do that, but that might be the smart move. I don't know how different you'll be though starting the rebuild now with Steph the attraction as opposed to worrying about the Steph decision in two years.

Right. See what I'm saying? Like you're right. Everything you said is right. But if you're on the Golden State side of it, you could probably talk to yourself in a few things. You say, hey, last 50 games, they were 31 and 19 was the eighth best record in the NBA.

From that stretch, they were sixth on offense, 16th in defense. Clay, after the All-Star break, was a better player. His splits, his shooting splits were 45-41. If you want to look at his total two years, he's kind of a net negative. And defensively, he's just not the same. But there was some good Clay closing months from the season in a stretch where he got benched and people were wondering like what he was even going to be in the free agent market. So you also, which is a big assumption, you go, it has to be a better Draymond year, right?

Does it? It has to be. Does it? Do you think it's going to get worse? Will it be the same amount of drama that we had last year? I don't know. I wouldn't bet on it either way. I can't say that I've seen a lot of signs that it's going to be less dramatic. It just was so dramatic. I just have a hard time believing like we're going to get the exact same thing. I mean, the guy basically...

conned all of us into thinking that it was like, I just got to step away from the game. Like it was an unbelievable spin on all of this stuff. It's like, Hey, just stop fucking punching people. And it was like, I just have to figure out where I'm at right now. He does not seem self-aware in any conceivable way. Well, and speaking of self-aware, like one of the things that have to do with clay, Malik Monk, who I think if you're going to compare clay at an advancing age, uh,

to different scores in the league who are a little up and down, or maybe they can't guard anybody that well and they're more consistent offensively or whatever. Malik Monk was 78 million for four years. Is Klay Thompson worth more than Malik Monk? I would say no. I would say that's right around his range, whether it's two years, three years, or four. It's probably between like 17 to 20 million a year for what he is at this point of his career. The question is, does he think that? And I'm going to guess no. By the way, have you been watching The English Patient?

No. Why? Or the King's speech. Why? Just your work with Malik Monk. Oh, you said his name right twice. We're all trying to get better. You know, it doesn't matter how old you are. We're all trying to improve. I can't say Wimbledon. I still, I still call it Wimbledon. Get ready for that with the T instead of the D. Robert Ory is probably out there being like, why does he think I sleep around so much? Robert, Robert, I have some bad ones.

I'll fully admit it. All right, so you're Paul George. We all have a few. Your Paul George prediction is what? Hold on. I just want to stay on the Golden State. You're right about all of the rest of the West. If they're being honest, if Dunleavy and Kerr and Lakup, and they're all talking to each other and going, hey, we're not going to be better than any of those teams. But if you wanted to have a positive day, you would say all the things I said. You go, okay, Pajemski will be better.

Jackson Davis was a hit. Kaminga finally showed us some stretches of like being a real thing here. So you may not even be in a hurry to be trading him for anybody else. Less dramatic Draymond year. Less dramatic Draymond year.

And I know what will happen if Chris Paul is waived and they don't get anybody. You're just going to say, like, I can't believe they wasted that asset. And I'm just going to go, well, maybe, maybe Paul George can just force their hand. And that leads to a Wiggins deal and a couple picks. And maybe it isn't even Kaminga. Maybe it's Looney because Jackson Davis feels like a better option there. And that's how you start adding up some of the money for it.

Because when you look at the Chris Paul Houston thing, there's actually a couple decent pieces in there. It's just a lot of stuff. It was Pat Bev. It was a couple couple picks, right? Yeah. It was Montrez. Yeah. Lou Will. Sam Decker. Shout out Kyle Wilcher for those that

Want to keep track? DeAndre Liggins. And there was a first that was Spellman. So they actually got a couple things there. But that just depends on if Paul George is going to say, hey, look, you have to trade me here. And it's not a perfect fit. It doesn't make the Warriors the favorites. Although on TV for 24 hours, somebody will probably say it. And maybe that's the best case scenario of just going, we're raising our talent level. Even though Paul George at 34 years old, right? Year 15.

the most games he's played in five years. The previous four years, he never got north of 60.

games in a season. And for Paul George to thrive, he needs to be somebody that doesn't have all the pressure on him. And Steph would take some of that pressure away from him. I still think Philadelphia makes the most sense for him because they'll be the maxi night. You know Embiid's good for his 30, 15 or whatever. And Paul George can kind of just be a higher price Tobias Harris at times. But knowing that he'll also have some games where he looks like one of the 10 best players in the league. Because I do think he's

I do feel more comfortable about him having some of those high-level playoff games. I just don't expect to pencil him in for like six or seven in a row in a long series. Higher-priced Tobias Harris. I'm trying to decide how insulting that was because Tobias was making $40 million last year. I guess I just mean moving forward how much he's going to make. No, no, but you were right. The phrase is correct. I'm like, oof, higher-priced Tobias Harris, who's probably the least-liked sixer of the last—

since Ben Simmons. Right. We just saw it though, right? Against Dallas. I mean, am I unfair in saying there are moments in there where you're looking at Paul George going, hey, Kawhi's out now. No, I mean, it's year 15. You're not going to change that much in year 15 as a basketball player, but my guess. He could never go anywhere right now. Like, that's why Orlando actually probably makes a little less sense unless Powell just takes it up to another level, which I think is totally within reason. I think Franz will just by default be a better shooter this year. But if Paul George goes to a place where he has to be

the one option all the time. Maxine and B take a ton of pressure off of him. Steph would. Maybe if Klay has some kind of bounce back that carries over, like, could he possibly be a little bit better than he was even after the All-Star break? Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's impossible or any of those things. I actually like the fit for him on the Lakers the most. If you just flipped him and LeBron. I like that fit for him. Him playing with Davis and Rui and Austin Reeves.

JJ coaching. And I don't know. I just think that would be, I think the most fun basketball trade would just be flipping LeBron and Paul George and putting LeBron on the Clippers with Kawhi and James Harden. I would just enjoy that more as a basketball fan. One last thing on Golden State, the case for them doing something with that Chris Paul contract is that we just did that ringer top hundred last few days ago. I'd curry seventh and it goes back to something I'm never going to waver on. If you have a top 10 guy,

in the league, somebody who has a chance to be a first team Omba guy, somebody who has a chance, if you have the right team to be an MVP candidate, you kind of have to go for it. You know, this was the case for OKC with SGA last year when it was like, Hey guys, you might be a one seed.

You have a guy who's one of the best four guys in the league. Like he take, can you take this a little more seriously? So if you're the Warriors, Steph is still at that level and maybe he's not going to be at that level for more than a year or two years. I don't know. But if they can turn that Chris Paul thing into a better asset, you might have to do it, especially with the way the lead, the values of the franchises are going up. And that's probably a $7 billion team at this point. By the way, in the LeBron front, as soon as he opts out though, that's just not an option.

Yeah, good point. But couldn't they sign and trade him after he opts out, though? I thought they could. I'm always confused by those rules. I think they can. Once it can be like the double, the double whatever. Let's take a break because we want to play some games with the Atlanta number one pick.

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While you watch the games this football season, enjoy your 10 free boneless wings and maybe enjoy some Nashville hot sauce while you're at it. At participating locations for a limited time when you order in the Buffalo Wild Wings web or app. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. From tip-off to hoisting the trophy, celebrate every moment of the WNBA finals with a Michelob Ultra in hand. The WNBA is so hot, we just launched a Ringer WNBA show podcast.

Yeah, that's happening. You know what goes well with it? Michelob Ultra. The taste, super smooth. Low calories and carbs. Why not save on calories if you're drinking a good beer? I like to keep it nice and cold. It's just really good. And you got the WNBA finals, like all kinds of crazy matchups. Might have the two best teams in the league playing in round two.

It's going to be amazing. We'll see how far Kate and Clark goes. You're not going to want to miss a moment. Stock up on Michelob Ultra for the WNBA finals. Michelob Ultra, superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2024, Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. Atlanta's number one pick. You texted this to me and we thought it'd be a fun segment. Who would you trade straight up for Atlanta's number one pick? It has to be a realistic trade. It has to be a trade that

you could make work fairly easily under the salary cap. And it's a specific class of guys, but we did not compare notes. So I'm going to be interested to see if our notes are aligned. What I thought we would do is let's fuck it. We haven't done a draft in like four weeks. Let's do straight up for Atlanta's number one pick draft. What's your, I'll let you go first. What's your favorite name? Give me one. Jalen Brown. Come on.

Stop. You're ridiculous. Go. What's your favorite name? I just wanted to, just because I was very upset about the title of your most recent episode. I was like, when are we getting to the 12 burning off-season questions with you, CR, and Rob? It was a bad title. Sometimes I have good titles, sometimes not as good. Yeah, it was a little misleading.

I was like, we're on minute 47 at Jalen Brown. Where the fuck are the questions? All right. Aaron Gordon. Aaron Gordon. Wow. Okay. Make the case. Well, his value is less away. Should I say Sons Jokic? Sons Jokic. He's two different guys. Like the funniest thing about him being traded for Orlando is when he was in the trade market, I go, you know, I know what everybody kind of thinks of him, but

Like, there's a reason this hasn't really worked out for a while. Then he goes, plays in Denver. He's a completely different guy. Then I saw people being like, oh, Orlando, how do you let this guy go? Like, well, just scream you don't watch them. Just say you don't watch. It's completely different. So Denver probably says no because it doesn't even make any sense, right? Unless they wanted to reset Denver.

the salary stuff, but Gordon's just such a perfect baseline fit for everything they do. So I'm not even saying that I was doing, I was trying to trust, like just trying to think of like player value level. Well, you know what I like, you know what I like about that? His salary is not that expensive. He's 22.8 next year. So that with that, with that land is weird team. Like they have Capella's expiring at 20. So you, so they would be able to just easily make that roster move and add the number one pick to it. And then Denver could flip Capella or it could be Bogdanovich.

Bogdanovich, the number one pick for Aaron Gordon, which then seems like too much. I like that one. All right, here's my first choice. Trey Murphy. And I think the Pelicans say no. Unless they wanted Klingin and just said, okay, post Valanciunas, we have a better big option, maybe defensively. Well, you do. You just do. I mean, Valanciunas is a bruiser.

It actually stretches for a little bit, but you could see some stuff in OKC where you thought, well, she's just getting all these rebounds, but Willie Green still wanted to play small with Nance. Yeah. So you're like, okay, well, what does that tell you? Would you rather have Trey Murphy than any player in this draft? Yeah. See, this is really what the exercise is. Yes. This is why we're doing it. I think I would rather have Trey Murphy than any player in the draft. I love Trey Murphy. Yeah. I'm going to say I'd rather have Trey Murphy.

Just because I can't wait to see what this year looks like for Trey Murphy. And that's an easy trade because he's still on a rookie. He's making like $4 million a year. All right, you go. Does Utah say no to Atlanta if they ask for Larry Markkinen? Yes. I think you would have to throw in Murray with the number one pick to get Utah to even consider that one. I think he's too good. Okay. All right, I'm going to go.

Let's stay with the Pelicans. Herb Jones, straight up for the number one pick. A little harder because he just signed an extension. Would you rather have Herb Jones than every player in this draft? Yeah, we just have to have fun with it. I love Herb Jones, but I would say based on the upside part of it, if you just hammered the work a week in and go, hey, we actually think Saar, we think Risa Shea, you probably would do it if you were the Pelicans.

The reason I, the Pelicans came to mind first is because those two guys together with Zion and with Brandon Ingram. And it's just clearly some, now it seems like they're going to trade Brandon Ingram. Um, but it just feels like one of those guys is expendable if they wanted to create a different type of team, who knows what they do. You go next. You think RJ Barrett would get it done? No, I don't. I don't. Atlanta would say Atlanta would say no.

I don't. I think Toronto would have to throw in Grady Dick as well, just to even get Atlanta not to hang up. You get an all-rookie vote. I have a good one. Cerruti's going to be mad. I love how stupid this is. It's great. Cerruti's going to be mad. Franz Wagner. That's ridiculous. At least with Utah and Lowry, you go, okay, let's just start it. And there's a guy we actually like. Franz...

It's not saying like Franz is so much better than Lowry, but Franz makes so much more sense for what Orlando is doing. Cerruti should be upset by that one. I think I agree with you. We're drafting names. You go. I have like five more names, just FYI. Mitchell Robinson. Yeah, I think that's a no from Atlanta. He's 15 a year. I'd just rather take Klingon and get him on a rookie contract for four years and have that. Wouldn't you? Yeah. Look, I'm trying to...

I'm trying to nail the target here. I get it. Kaysan Wallace. I think OKC would be okay with that. They would trade Kaysan Wallace for the number one pick in the draft, you think? Yeah, I think they would. I'm 50-50 on it. I think you make a KC either way. I actually don't think Atlanta would do it because they're like, well, why do we need a guard? We have Trae Young and Murray. All right, you go next. Cam Whitmore. I don't think he's enough. I don't think so, yeah. Too small sample size.

What about Keegan Murray? Ooh. Oh, I thought of a lot of things. Would Sabonis get it done? Would Sacramento say yes? Now the Kings fans are going to be mad at you. Oh, this is all. Sabonis is too good for the number one pick. Keegan Murray is right around the right side, but they either signed the extension or he's about to. But the real exercise here is all the players we're venturing, would they go first in the draft? You don't have to worry about the contract yet with Keegan. I think we're a year away from it though. Yeah, but it's not like.

impending. I only have one more. Does Tyler Hero get it done? He does not. Not after watching what the Celtics did to him in the playoffs. Austin Reeves is a no, but I just wanted to mention him so he didn't feel left out. Wait, so if you were Atlanta and the Lakers offered Reeves, you would say yes? No, I'd say no. I'm saying no. All right. I thought I didn't know if we're getting the no from the Lakers side or not.

I subscribe to the Joe House theory in this draft, which is if you're in the top two, you can think it, overthink it, do whatever you want. But both of those UConn guys are going to be, I think, really safe bets to be good, good NBA players at the very least on rookie contracts for the next four years. So unless I can trump that, I'm keeping the pick. I had my favorite fake trade with this pick.

Or it actually doesn't involve the pick, but involves the Hawks is bridges with Ben Simmons. No, uh, Mikhail bridges and Ben Simmons expiring for Trey and Capella is expiring. And then the Hawks take Reed Shepard with the first pick is the most fun version of a Hawk situation. And then they would have Reed Dejounte Murray that have Mikhail bridges that have Hunter. Like I would just like the framework of a better, and then Brooklyn could build around Trey. You've been really good on the Trey, uh,

destinations for different motivations where Brooklyn is like, okay, here's your star. Put them on the side of Barclays. Nick's killer Trey Young is here. So you would do that though. You would trade Trey and the pieces that would take for bridges as those being the two focal point. Yeah. Cause Capella, whatever, is it expiring and he's probably overpaid as a center at this point. So basically it's, I'm turning bridges at 25 billion and getting that instead of trade 40.

And then I'm bringing back Ben Simmons to Atlanta where, you know, his career unraveled. Maybe seeing if I can unlock it, bring him back. It's like when the person, the horror movie goes back to the house where all the bad things happen. Maybe they can unlock some demons. Jared Allen was the only other name I had.

I only had Beal because it doesn't make any sense for the Atlanta thing. No, because Jared Allen's $20 million and Kaminga is $8 million. That's another one I guess you could technically say. Would Kaminga go number one in this draft? Well, if we start doing the salary stuff, it makes all of this a lot more challenging. I'm just trying to think of one GM calls the other. Here's the framework of it. Are you interested? Who hangs up? And it felt like a lot of these were hangups. The Trey Murphy one's really interesting. So what would you do if you're Atlanta?

It feels like Klingon's the guy. He makes the most sense if they're not going to blow up their team in any real way. And there hasn't been any real trade buzz yet about either guy. Now, they have a semi-new regime and maybe some stuff's quiet. We've seen trades happen with no buzz before. But I don't understand if they keep the pick, why it wouldn't be Klingon.

Only that, well, honestly, from an offensive standpoint, again, I don't know what the rest of the pieces are going to be here, but I mean, Klingon on Trey Lobs, if Trey is still there, it's going to be awesome. Maybe they feel like Klingon, as you've had a diminishing Capella, a Congo who I like, but do they look at Klingon as somebody who's going to be that much better as a security blanket from the blown perimeter stuff that Atlanta is always likely to give up with this current backcourt?

because it wasn't like dejante was locking anybody up either but true

Do they think Klingon... I mean, Quinn Snyder at one point, I remember it was just an awful Hawks loss. The defense was atrocious. And instead of going to the next game, I go, I'm going to stay here with the Hawks postgame presser. And Snyder just looked like a defeated man on that night. I'm not saying for the season, but on that night... And it's all out there. You could watch it if you actually care, which I wouldn't expect anybody would care enough to watch it. But he was just like we...

I'm paraphrasing, but we're just so bad at the perimeter. So maybe they look at Klingon saying like, Sar is still so raw. And apparently like Sar, this is the funny thing I think with Sar and the way his guys are handling it. He still hasn't worked out as of today, I believe.

with Atlanta. And I wonder if they look at it going like, no, we want you to go too because there's no one else there to take shots. So even if you aren't good, you're going to get two years worth of shots and two years worth of stats and nothing else is going to be in your way. Where Klingin is a better basketball fit and Saar to Washington is a better career fit to get whether, you know, look, maybe he will end up being good and all this be justified. Or maybe he'll just get a bunch of opportunities and put up some stats and make, you know,

second-team All-Rookie, and we still don't even know if he's any good because there aren't that many other options in Washington. Although I still wonder, Klingon feels like, when you talk to other teams, I hear Klingon at one with Atlanta more than anybody else right now, which is not what the Mocs are. And Saar at Washington seems to be consensus at this point, which is crazy. It feels like consensus...

Without any certainty, though. Like, there's different stuff that you'll hear before the draft with lottery guys. They're like, hey, who's the most rumored guy to go where? Or like, what are you hearing the most of? And Saar feels like more of an assumption, just kind of the default guy to go if Klingin goes one. Where, like, with Reed Shepard in Houston, that one feels like there's real momentum. There'll be examples shared where you're like, okay, well, that seems very specific.

where the Sar one never feels specific. It just feels like everybody's just saying the same thing as everybody else. The chalk version of this draft seems to be Klingin, Sar, Shepard at three, and then the Spurs somehow get Rizashe at four. Yeah. And I think Modest... Which would be a marabou for them. I think Modest to Detroit at five is pretty consistent.

But what you just laid out would match, I'd say, of all the different things that I've talked with people about, I'll like kind of just, what names am I hearing at the same spot over and over and over again? And that's how the five have played out in most conversations. If I was Atlanta, I would trade with San Antonio and try to flip spots with them and try to go back from one to four and pick up something extra. It doesn't have to be spectacular.

And I feel like I'd get cling in it for, because I don't think, I don't think two or three is taking them. Houston's going to take shepherd the Spurs. If they moved up, I wonder if they would like, I wonder who do you think is number one on the Spurs board just for, we're trying to build a team around Wemby and you're sitting there going, shit, somebody might take him before us at four. Should we just move up to one? It won't even cost that much to try to get them because they're,

You could say it's getting another French wing. Now they also have a bunch of wings already in their team, but Reed Shepard, and you laid out the case for him last week, is by far the most fun fit next to Wimby for a variety of reasons. And part of me wonders, would they just trade up because everybody thinks Houston likes Shepard at three? Maybe you trade up from four to one, give up something extra, not number eight, but one of those other picks they have and just grab Shepard at one. So who's on their board, do you think?

It feels like Risa Shay. Yeah. But then sometimes I watch him and I think Salon might be as good as he is. I've done a double zag on Risa Shay. Okay, give it to me. Now I'm kind of back in on him a little bit.

All right. He's like, he's 6'10". I like his stroke. He's athletic. I like some of his fist pumps on the YouTube clip. I mean, I can't tell you how general of a draft fan I've been this year. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert. Just like eye test stuff I'm watching. I'm like, ah, this kid, I can see it. But I think this whole point of this draft in the top five is...

Anybody who's like, I am positive 100%, this guy is going to be this. This is not the draft for that. There's a lot of like, I can see it. Yeah, maybe. It's that. So it's like whatever your yeah, maybe, however strongly you feel about the yeah, maybe, that's maybe you should take. SAR for me is like smoking cigarettes. If I don't have anything to do, I'll just be like, let me watch some SAR. Let's go to another. I keep waiting to see something else.

And that's the lesson is that this is what it is. This is what it is. And for a guy his size to carry it as well as he does and his end to end stuff, like he had a turnover, somebody blocked his shot, the ball was turned over, he grabbed in the paint and he went coast to coast. He crossed over a guy at half court. He had an animal on in the paint and you're just like, Jesus, the pick and pop stuff, the shot out of his hands.

like it looks there's a lot there but there's also wiseman will always haunt me and that as i watched him i go right the best stuff is really really good but you know right here when he has no instincts and it's not fluid and he's thinking about what he's supposed to do it looks awful and this is what big guy busts look like and i went out we'll just go with we'll go with that he's so young and we only get to see the three games and it was a massive whiff so when i look at sar

I know why you could fall in love with him, but I kept hoping to see like something else or something else that like, and I go, no, this is the whole point. This is the whole point of this year. Um, I want to ask you a question. Wait, big last thing on big guys. They're so hard when the case is always like, oh man, he's only 19. That's what I fell for with Wiseman. Oh man. Imagine four years from now,

And you just don't know, like sometimes they're just big and raw and athletic at 19 and then they're 22 and guess what? They still are big and run athletic and they don't have real basketball instincts. So I've just like given up. I, to me, it's like quarterbacks trying to figure out like Michael panics. Sure. Maybe I, you know, it centers are too hard. Yeah. I mean, why has been when he wasn't thinking.

Like there would be possessions where he'd get the ball and he would just instinctively go into this amazing like jump shot. Like he'd jab, dribble you and then go up. Like Bob Lanier. Yeah. And I was like, what is this? Like this is it looks so good out of his hands. And I went, OK, this is like the best version of this is all of these things. But again, if it doesn't get any better, you're right about the quarterback thing. But I was thinking about that with Brady's interview with Colin Cowherd.

So Cowherd, which I could tell what Cowherd was doing. He was trying to try to get Brady to share some of those moments with Belichick where he'd be butting heads that we've all read about. Okay. And Brady, because he's been doing this such a long time, completely flips it and talks about how great Belichick was on a Saturday. All right. And Brady continues to give this awesome answer.

And by the way, like all the stuff that we've seen with Greg Olson and how Brady's been and how like this is such a weird situation because Olson's like the best doing it. Now he's going to get replaced. I didn't know if Brady was just the star attraction that networks absolutely love and love bringing up to up front. And it's like, we've got Brady. We don't even care what the fucking number is. But some of the stuff that Brady's doing is he's sharing information.

these stories in the media. I'm like, he might actually like this guy might be awesome at this. So we'll see. But wait, are you, are you on Brady's actually going to be good on TV Island? Because I was thinking, I was looking at, I was on Redfin the other day, looking at houses. I agree with you. He's way more candid than I was ever expecting. I think he might be awesome. Okay. He was so good with cow hurt. So back to the evaluation thing. And it dawned on me, listening to his answer. I, I've already talked about this. Cause I talk about quarterback evaluation too much on my podcast.

But Brady then goes further into depth. He goes, what I liked about Saturdays is like we'd install. Okay. And there's a hundred play calls and there's all these different things. And he'd be like, okay, well this play, no matter what happens, like if they bring a safety down, then we're done. And he goes in a lot of coaches, you just be like, Hey,

tip your cap to them they want and he's like i would never want to give it away so i'd be like no we need a call we needed to say grape or whatever and he'd be sharing all these things he's like once we see this and we do the install and the walkthrough and all the different things like if that's something that we're seeing that they do they can blow up this one play call that we have designed for this sunday why are we going to let them get one why are we giving one away just based on a look that we don't have any kind of counter for so i want to counter that is the quarterback position

And we never talk about that ever when we're talking about quarterbacks being drafted. One, because we don't have access to understanding how these kids operate or if this is even something they're capable of or they've ever been questioned with. But we spend all this time talking about quarterbacks and evaluation when really all the things that we're prioritizing have nothing to do with the guys that are actually successful on Sundays. And Brady shared with us another example of why he's the greatest is

and what the great ones do in their preparation, recognition, all these different things. And we're still sitting here in 2024 talking about fucking arm strength. Charisma, intelligence, and competitiveness. It's those three traits. That's it. If you have those three and you're physically good, you don't even have to be great. You can be physically good. But if you have those other three, and that's what it is over and over again. I feel like we're starting to figure out quarterbacks more and more as it goes.

because we've been spent so much time talking about it i still don't feel that confident about it when we get to like that penix bo nicks level i'm just like but like you know joe burrow that was a pretty safe bet the stuff you read about my homes after the fact it was like this guy's fucking fucking animal you know but it's more of but it's it's knowing the person you know there's this joke about how like banking is infested with lacrosse players and it's like well

One of the things that people want in finance is guys that are insanely competitive. Granted, I've got some lacrosse buddies that I would not say were super dialed in throughout the entire season, but there were others that were just maniacs. And I'd be like, do you know there's no league after this, really? I know there's two, but there's not, especially back when I was, I'm not talking about the league options now for lacrosse, but there's something to the now in basketball, no one is tasked with the quarterback.

I don't know that even the best basketball players have to dissect what a quarterback has to do so we can still go back to physical traits. And there's just different guys crossing up. No, but I think the point guard position, I think, resembles it a little bit. Like when you can see how somebody, the way they can lead a team and understand the rhythm of a game, I think is something you could see at the college level. When I look at centers, and the reason I like Klingon, I don't know if he'll ever make an all-star team.

But he does two things that I know work in the NBA. He protects the rim and he can, he can dunk those lob passes. We know that works. He's really good at both of those things. So for me, the room for error with him is the slimmest. Whereas I look at SAR and I'm like, man, we've seen that fail before, but we've also been wrong on those guys. Right? Like, could he be Serge Ibaka? Is that possible? Could he be like a, a, a better rebounding version of Serge Ibaka?

I don't know. He'll spread the floor like Serge eventually did. But we didn't know Serge was going to shoot threes when he came in the league. He was just like this kind of runner dunker guy. I didn't think Rudy could walk.

when he got drafted. Okay. Right. Clint Capella. I was like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what this is. And it's also for some of these bigs, especially now guys that can't stretch the floor. It's like, you have to have a willing guard. You got to have somebody who wants you involved in some of this stuff. Like Clint Capella living with Harden during those years. That was an awesome version of Clint Capella. Yeah. Cause it's like switch contest.

try to run guys off, drop coverage, all this stuff. Like you're going to be moving around a ton. And then on offense, you're going to be eating for free all the time because Harden was so good at catching the defenders in between decisions. And the second you showed what you were going to do to Harden, he would burn you. And Trey is great at that. So if Trey's still there and it's clinging, and I think you said something. That makes sense with Trey.

Yeah. And I think you said something that was really good there, too. And it's kind of like the old Belichick thing is we're talking a little Pats here is just stop telling me what these guys can't do. Tell me what they can do. And for Klingin, there's nothing to suggest that all of a sudden he's going to start shooting threes in three years. And maybe like maybe we should stop asking for that all the time. Yeah. Quickly. I want to ask you. I know I have to ask you something. Does Castle to the Spurs make sense? Not for the team they have, but it feels like a very Spurs pick.

Like they, I could see them taking them at four and just being like, oh yeah, of course, of course they were going to take them. Right. But I just, there's part of me after the Sohan point guard experiment where I'm like, are you going to kind of try to do a version of this again? Right. Just try to do a better version of it. Somebody who actually can play point guard a tiny bit. See, I, I just like, I like him more than any wing that they have other than Sohan. So I really like Castle. I at least know what he is.

you know, and with the, with the, with the floor for whatever he is, is still somebody that can be in the league and be in the top seven on a playoff team. I think, um, can I give you best situation match for every lottery pick? I want you to give them to me. Klingon. I had Atlanta, but I also think he'd be really fun on Memphis. Um,

and on Charlotte and on OKC. I actually had him on the most teams where I'd be like, oh, that would be fun if he was on that team. Is there any other Klingon team you would have? Memphis. Yeah. Shepard. Houston and San Antonio seem fun to me for him. Anybody else? Celtics. We have Pritchard. We don't need him. We have the king of the half court, five-step half court shots, Peyton Pritchard. Special teamer. Castle. San Antonio. I think he'd be a good Detroit.

Good wing, right? With Cunningham and Jaden, and he's like their wing who can play guard. I mean, I don't love the Detroit team, but I actually think he'd play and fit in there. Why are you making a face? Yeah, because Thompson, if you wanted to go small, you're probably playing him at the four. Yeah, I don't hate it. I just really want to see a non-Monte Williams, Jaden Ivey, Cade Cunningham season. I'm looking forward to it. Well, obviously Detroit is too, since they spent $65 million to take a look at it.

SAR is basically for me, Washington or bust. It's the funniest outcome. It's going to be hilarious for house. Um, I like that he's going number two. There's a couple of guys in this draft where it's like, it's actually better that you're not going first. So I think we reached a shade like that too. Him going first makes me nervous for him. Cause I think when you go first,

there's this inherent pressure that comes with that. If you're not good right away or if you have a bad game, people are like, that fucking guy went first? It's tough. It's really hard. If you're not a finished product, that's why Klingon at least could go first and be like, oh, yeah, okay, I get it. But I think Sar, Washington, I can't think of another team other than maybe Charlotte for him. Yeah, that feels like if San Antonio takes him, you go, oh, like if he were to fall and you go...

Oh my God, San Antonio got this guy who's supposed to go number one, where granted, not going to last till six, but if Charlotte takes him. I'm prepared for anything with this draft though. Like remember 2013, New Orleans fell to what, six? New Orleans was number one the whole process. And then all of a sudden was dropping like a stone and we didn't know what was going on. Reese O'Shea, Spurs is the best fit for him for a variety of reasons. Charlotte would be kind of fun too.

And then who's your favorite connect team? I would love to. I don't think he's going to. I think his range is 7, 8, 9, Portland, San Antonio, Memphis. I would love to see him on a good team right away. The more I watch Dalton, the more I'm like, I know he's older.

And he would have been great on the last dance because the last dance is basically everybody just got taller. Yeah. But connect, when you go through his entire story, you're like, and then he grew another three inches and then he grew five inches. And then all of a sudden he's a stud. Yeah. I don't really know what you would say, like, where are the limitations for him? So Portland, by the way, to add on that, if he came to the right team, I think he's a good rookie of the year bet.

I could see him coming in and immediately scoring. First of all, because he's 24 years old. But if it was a team that actually gave him the ball and ran some plays for him, I think, I just think from a shooting standpoint, I think he could produce immediately. He's a slow. And it's, it's unbelievable watching his misses. How many times you're like, I can't believe that didn't go down.

Like there's some of these guys, man, like the doubts, like I always joke about how, like I wanted to write a book, like the five ways Michael Jordan ruined the NBA. And I'm kidding. Yeah, I really mean it. But it was a generation of players that just thought, as long as I take the last second shot and everybody knows that I have that in me, it doesn't matter if it goes in or not. I just going to make sure I take it because that's what MJ would do. Yeah. Yeah.

I think Steph is, especially when you're prepping for the draft, you go, what? Who told you that was a good shot? So like when I put down Jacoby Walters fit, I put the Memphis hustle and he thinks he might be Kobe. And I knew it was bad. Who knows? It's a young guy, Baylor freshman,

He has some incredible shot making, but he has some of the worst shot decisions like since Jaden Hardy. But Hardy in a limited situation with Dallas to go. It's a sick athlete. It's got the body for it. Can rein him in here a little bit. Rational confidence guy. Yeah. And Jacoby has some of that in him right now because I when I did the tape for him, I think the third first thing I wrote down was you're not going to like this guy. And then I just watched like the rest of it.

You know, I think the Terrence Shannon thing is really interesting because you want to talk about like wings that can actually... Like there's a difference. Like Cody Williams, I think, has an idea of what he wants to do, but it seems like he doesn't really know what he's doing half the time on some of these drives. All right? Walter fits into that category. I think Castle even has a little of that. When I watched Shannon just decide he's going to go, like there's another level of shit to his game where...

it's not the adventure it is for some of these other guys. Like some of these guys are like Cody Williams is a high profile kid. I think the highest rate of recruit that ever went to Colorado. He's, he's Jalen's brother, obviously.

And he's this big, long, I mean, he's supposed to kind of be a shooter and a driver and all these things. But man, hey, a lot of this ends up with you taking 15 foot turnarounds after you try to back a guy out, back a guy down and a clear out on one side for like five seconds. And it leads to this turnaround that everybody wants you to take. Everybody wants you to take that shot because it's so freaking hard. I don't think he would fall to OKC at 12, but I wonder if they'd feel like they were triple lands line. Yeah. Yeah.

J-Dubs, J-Will, and Cody? If your brother's falling, does your team have to take him if you're the number two priority on your, or maybe number three? I promise you, Sam, we'll do whatever he wants to do and not pick butt at all. Speaking of Sam, we got to take a break because we got to talk about Giddy for Caruso.

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Since the last time we talked, Rosillo, OKC traded Josh Giddey for Alex Caruso trade that happened a couple of days ago. I've not talked about it on the podcast. And the consensus seemed to be, how did OKC get this done without throwing in anything else? Why didn't they throw in picks? This isn't even a hot take. It feels like a zag. And I'm not even sure it feels like a hot zag.

I thought Chicago won the trade. I like Giddy. I do. I like Giddy. He's 21 years old. To me, this was like one of the all-time buying low NBA trades of this century. Year two, age 20, 17, eight and six, 48%, super competitive. They had like nobody. They had no center. They went 40 and 42. That guy was fucking bringing it.

Went through all the off the court stuff, which I think fucked his season up. And by the way, not great for him, but I think, you know, it got the year off to a bad start combined with the team was better. SGA had the ball a lot and he started to get marginalized as the year went along. 21 years old last year. But I went and looked at 21 under guys who averaged 15, six and six and played 60 plus games. Here's the list.

Luca three times, LeBron twice, Magic, LaMelo, Ben Simmons, and Josh Giddey in the history of the league. If you go 20 and under, which he did as a sophomore, Luca twice, Magic, LeBron, LaMelo, Josh Giddey. I just think people forgot that he's actually good. And he was in a weird situation on a team that didn't really need him. And now he's going to a team that's not that good. That's going to be like, yo, Josh Giddey, we think you're good. Here's the ball. And I think he was an asset. So what'd you think?

I agree with you. Oh, we didn't talk about this. No, we didn't. I couldn't believe seeing it play out in real time on Twitter. I was like, wait, so everybody just thinks Josh Giddey sucks? Now, if you go on recent events, he couldn't stay on the floor in the playoff game because he was the one guy that Dallas decided we're just not going to

defend you at all. And when you start running into those problems where it's somebody you don't even care about, and we've seen this happen plenty of times with teams, it happened with Cleveland against the Knicks. It's just like, you know what? We actually aren't even going to bother with you at all. And then OKC is kind of stuck with having to get them out of there. By the way, 28 of the 30 teams have a guy like that every year, and they have to learn how to make that guy work in their offense. It's like, all right, you're our guy who teams are going to be OK leaving you alone. So how are you going to affect it?

Yeah, and him off the ball all the time because SGA is so good on the ball. Jalen's going to get a bunch of possessions where he's initiating something. Giddy off the ball is a diminished version of him. But when he played, when he went on that run, when SGA was out, he was incredible. All right? Now, the off-the-court stuff also destroyed his rep.

I don't know what to make of it. I know they investigated it. They said it was done. You can believe whatever you want. I don't know what to believe on that one. But that clearly plays into just the general Q rating of Josh Giddey during this trade. Now, well, and they also seems like it seems like they told him, like, you're going to be the sixth man next year if you play for us. And he's like, I don't want to be the sixth man. I feel like I could be one of the best three guys on a team which led to the trade. I mean, Sam was pretty honest about that.

I think because OKC had so many picks, people were like, how could you not get a pick? But it's like, so wait, if you did the trade with a team that didn't have picks, what's OKC supposed to do? Just give you some? Right. Oh, OK. We'll give you the Charlotte pick we have in 28. I mean, we do have a lot. House won a Giddy for the number two pick. Like for real. That was his dream scenario for the second pick in the draft. I just think the stuff Giddy did and I saw him in person a couple of times the first two years of his career.

And I just like how he plays. You know, he can, he's, he's a small forward, but he's also a point guard. It doesn't really matter. He's tall. He rebounds. Uh, he just fills the box score. He's fun to play with. The ball moves with him. And I think if, if you're going to ding him on anything, it's like, yeah, he's not good enough. Three point shooter yet. Well, he's 21. Like Jalen Brown couldn't shoot when he came into the league. That was the reason people thought he was going to go seventh or eighth draft because he couldn't hit a jump shot.

And people are like, well, if he learns how to shoot, he'll be an asset. Well, now he learned how to shoot. I just thought for Caruso, who's an expiring contract, who everybody seemed to think they wanted like three, four first round picks. Well,

you know, they never got them. They never got two first round picks for them. And then as you're going into the last year deal, it was a really good trade for OKC. Like everybody made the Derek White true holiday comparison. I totally get it. Thought it was smart. I think it was the right time to move off of Giddy. But I also thought the Bulls bought really low on them and they're a bad team to begin with. So it's like, all right, now we have Kobe White. We have Josh Giddy. We have the 11th pick.

Probably have to figure out a way to get rid of Levine. DeRozan's probably leaving. Maybe we can trade Butch for somebody. But at least now they're moving in a direction that makes sense to me. I don't know about that. Two weeks ago? No, I'm saying they're not trying to... I don't think they're trying to be a contender now. I think they're looking at, let's actually try to rebuild this a little bit. Would you trade Patrick Williams for the number one pick? I would not. I wouldn't.

I think he's good though. You wouldn't trade the pick, right? No, I would not. Okay. I would not. I like getting more than Twitter did for a night. So, so can you go SGA, Dort, Caruso, J Dub and Chet at crunch time for four straight rounds? Cause my answer would be no. I need, I need two more guys that give me a little big, small flexibility and they have the 12th pick in the draft. They have cap space. Yeah.

And I think what they do this summer is going to determine what their ceiling is as could they make the finals or not, but they need, they need the ability to go big or small. And right now they can really, from what I see only go smaller lineup with chat, which is what we saw last year. And they couldn't get a big rebound when it mattered. Crusoe would be better fit for them than giddy, but there's still one more piece for them.

I think they need a Jordan Clarkson type. I think they need another on-ball guy. Yeah, I think they need someone else. And I think that's what they were hoping Gordon Hayward could be a little bit. And it doesn't have to be like Clarkson eventually became better with others where Clarkson had some moments in his career where it's like does not play well with others, but he could just score.

And when I watched the Dallas series, as great as SGA was, and I know that Jalen just was disappointing. He was. He'll be better next year, though. Yeah, right. I'd imagine. But it felt like they need another guy that can kind of initiate his own offense a little bit more. And hopefully that's not another rookie. Maybe that could be Jalen Williams. Would you trade the number 12 pick for Brooke Lopez? One year left on his deal.

Devin Carter's gone. Dalton Connect's gone. Imagine Cody Williams is probably gone by then. Probably somebody good is sitting there at 12. You wouldn't do it? I don't think so. Well, this is the kind of content that you love the most off this giddy Caruso trade. This is when you're the happiest to be in the pod right now because I'm about to do a deep dive for you. I tried to figure out whether this was the greatest one-for-one white guy trade in the history of the league. I love this. And I went through all the trades.

And the answer is no, because in 1966, I liked Bailey Howell for Mel Counts straight up a little bit more. And I think Mel Counts was white. I'm not positive, but I think he was. But that was Baltimore, Boston. The Celtics get Bailey Howell. They make the 1967. He makes the 1967 All-Star team. They don't win the title.

He averages 20 a game, 67, 68, 69. They win two titles with him. Mel Counts lands on the 68 Lakers and starts in the NBA finals. And I think that's the greatest one for one. We'll see if Gideon Crusoe can surpass it. But I went through. It's pretty rare. It's hard to find the one for one-ers with the white guys. Dolph Shea's not involved in any? No. A lot of career stability for him. I thought for sure it was going to be like a Paul Westfall for somebody. And it just...

Just couldn't find it. So if anyone out there can find a better one for one white guy trade, please, by all means, let us know. Speaking of Chicago, we're going to do a little what would you do with Chicago? Because right now you have Kobe White, Josh Giddey in the 11th pick. You have Vucevic, 20 and 21. You have Levine and a terrible contract. You have DeRozan as a free agent. You have Lonzo, 21 million expiring.

You have all your picks except your 25 top 10 predicted to San Antonio, which I'm sure they're going to keep. And I'm sure part of maybe what they're thinking about next season is let's try to keep that top 10 pick in an absolutely loaded draft. What would you do if you're Chicago? What are your next two moves? You just turned Caruso into Josh Giddey. Now what? Dump Levine, maybe to Detroit for a pick. Would you dump Levine into Detroit's cap space for the fifth pick? I wouldn't do it if I was Detroit.

I have a better, what would you do with Detroit, which we're about to talk to in a second. I would say if I can dump Vucevic would be my next one. And I just let DeRozan go. And I would hope Levine could rehabilitate his value playing with Kobe White and Giddy. And we're super fun to watch. We're up and down. We're not that good, but we're at least like the ball's moving. And we have two guys who can either get to the rim, slash and kick, create their own offense, create for Levine.

And I would try to think about trading him in February versus now. I don't think he has any value now, do you? Do you think people are like, hey, what are you guys doing with Zach Levine? I don't think teams are looking at him. The contract numbers, it's too scary. And he said it's multiple surgeries. Three years from now? Yeah, with multiple surgeries. So I think that's got to be a wait and see. Would you re-sign DeRozan? What would you do? And could you get him to re-sign? I guess would be a better question. Probably let him go. I'd be open to it.

I'd be open to it. Depends on what the number is. I just think that he's a great guy to have around, and he's still good. There's a lot of LA buzz with him, too, by the way. That's another one with the smoke where I can't tell what the smoke is. Because I was wondering if that was a Paul George destination, maybe. Why would he want to go to Chicago? I don't think he would. But there's the Rosen Lakers, the Rosen Clippers, and the Rosen coming home.

I think they saw him at the Kendrick Lamar show and were like, that's where it all started. All right. Yeah. He was out there with Russ. Would you do a sign and trade? I don't know. The trade machine doesn't work right now because nothing is like legal. No, they have to do a thing where they have to, you can uncheck all the, and everything is available basically. Um, well I'm on the record. If I'm Chicago, I'm just blowing it up and starting over. Let's do a, what would you do for, uh, for Detroit though?

because I would actually trade that fifth pick for Brandon Ingram would be the move I'd want to do. That would be my number one draft pick for Pistons moves. And I think if you were, they have a ton of cap space, right? They could just absorb his contract. And I think if you're the Pelicans, you, you seriously think about that one, right? Cause they basically said we're trading Brandon Ingram. I don't know what the market is for him. Um,

I can't imagine there's 20 teams clamoring for him, but there might be four or five. But if I'm Detroit and I could get a swing man who can score and put him with Cade and Ivy, now I got the foundation of something. Ingram had some moments when he was the main guy where I thought he looked good. I think the issue is when he's one of the main guys that seems like he has trouble fitting in when there's other really good players he's playing with. Would you do that? Yeah, I would. For both?

If I'm on the New Orleans side of it where I agree with you, they seem to be more specific about having to be different and then not wanting to pay Ingram. Where I was like, this seems like a share. And then that means Murphy and Herb. Yeah, well, I mean, that goes without saying. Alvarado. They know who their keepers are and Ingram is not one of the keepers.

No, but I think they need to figure out the backcourt part of it too, which is why I was kind of hopeful that there was some kind of Garland matchup where Mitchell just had the team and then Garland. If you were going to ask me of any player that could be traded, I think you were asking me this in the notes for the show today, Garland to the Spurs would be one of my favorite outcomes of the entire summer. I don't know if there's a sell. I think it's Kelton at this point. Hey, you're actually doing us a favor by taking him. I don't think he has trade value.

I just can't imagine he's just going to suck now for the rest of his career. No, but I just don't think he'd be the centerpiece if I'm getting Garland back. No, but I'm saying Vassell would be the asset and then do the contracts and the rest of it. It's like, okay, does Keldon, is that a net negative at this point? Probably with the money and coming up the year you're talking about. So anyway, back to Ingram. Ingram will have a habit of where Brunson in his bad playoff series with the Mavs, it's like, oh, this guy's terrible.

Look, Jalen Williams just had a bad series at OKC. I still think he's going to be great. It's not that big of a deal. Like, you can do this. Ingram's coming off a series against Lou Dort where it's like, that's horrifying. That doesn't look very good. Tyler Hero, Jalen Brown, to your exact point with this one. It's like, what are you guys going to try to do against Jalen Brown? Look, the Heat were out of players. So...

Off of those, whether it's the giddy price right now, the price can be come too low for some of these guys. And I think the Ingram price with the impending extension, which I totally get a problem, right? It feels a bit like the Nick Claxton thing, where as soon as the deal is done, you go, Oh my God, I can't believe you have to pay that guy that much money. Uh,

I like Ingram there because I think he's going to get enough buckets to make it a little bit easier for the rest of those guys. Because if you look at the Pistons, as much as I like Cade and what Ivy could potentially be in some of these other pieces, who's the go-to bucket getter? And Cade turned his efficiency around, which was terrific, but he had been trending there for a while where you're like, what is going on with you? Where I think there was enough positives in the second half despite the fact they couldn't win any games. It's almost like his coach had mailed it in.

Yeah, it's weird. Or didn't know any of his roster before he took the job. Would you do a package with Ivy or Dern as the focal point and the fifth pick for Cat? Speaking of low prices post-playoff runs. I'd be so scared to trade Ivy not knowing what he is after we just wasted the first two months of last season just playing him completely wrong and then he slowly got momentum. I would want to see it for another year.

And I don't know about towns. Give me your Minnesota. Give me your Minnesota answer. Do it from the Minnesota side first. I'm not doing anything if I'm Minnesota. I want to, I want to Tatum lesson. No, I just want to run back. I don't, I think that Denver series really fucked them up and they acted like they won the title and they didn't. And then it was like, Oh no, you actually have another round after this. And they just kind of never recovered. But I still, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mess with that yet.

I would want to see it one more year or at least see it November, December, January before I, I feel like the town's trades are going to be there. If they, if they are pushing it, he's a top 30 guy, they're going to have a market for him. Um, and the Ivy thing, Ivy and Edwards together feels strange to me. I was thinking, so you mentioned Garland. So if New Orleans turned Ingram into the number five pick,

That would then allow them to take the number five pick with other assets they have, like the Lakers first next year and some of the other stuff they have. Put that with McCollum and go to Cleveland and try to get Garland. Or maybe it's just McCollum and the number five for Garland. Or McCollum, number five, one other pick for Garland. But something like that where, yeah, we'll take Garland off your hands. He doesn't seem that happy. And just try to get that dude and bring him in. Is CJ off the bench then? For Cleveland? Yeah.

No, I'm saying CJ's in the trade. Oh, CJ's in the trade. Number five, CJ and a pick for Garland. And then if you're Cleveland, you've kind of settled your Garland-Mitchell thing a little bit. And you've gotten the fifth pick. Would you do CJ and Ingram for Garland? Forget salaries? Would you say, hey, we're going to move these two pieces out for this one piece back? For Garland and one more salary? No, let's forget the salary part of it. I'm just asking like talent in, talent out.

That feels like too much. Doesn't it? A little? Yeah, it feels like too much. So you're saying that's your way of saying the three-way. So basically it's a three-way trade and that wouldn't work. Unless you're saying, hey, look, it feels like a lot of time. CJ's getting older. He's expensive. You don't want to do the Ingram thing already. You don't even care about the fifth pick. So you can throw that in there. You've had all these picks. You still have picks coming in. And now this means that it's Garland who...

When I look at all the guards and their deficiencies and their positives or whatever, I just feel like when Garland comes into a situation, there's more buy-in from him. You never hear about any bullshit or any problems. So I think that's a huge positive. And maybe you're just going, now Herb is...

your two guard trays, your small forward. Those are all their minutes now. Zion's your power forward. And then you're figuring out your center rotation for big and small options. And now it's not like, hey, look at this deep team. You still have Dyson Daniels. Well, do we agree that Garland, now that Giddy is off the board, is Garland is the best by a little bit low guy on the board right now? Because I think

He had the year from hell for a variety of reasons. Mainly he broke his fucking jaw and lost a bunch of weight and then was afraid to get it in the face. I'm still, I will buy everybody's Garland stock. I'm still all in on that dude. And I want to see him with his own team. And I would try to trade for him if I was another GM. I had one more trade for you and then we'll take a break. Is there a Draymond-Nicks situation that you could see? Do you see the, A, do you see the Warriors trading Draymond and then B,

if they did trade him, what would be an actual fun team for him to go to where, you know, it's like Mitchell Robinson and a contract at number 24 for Draymond, or maybe it's Bogdanovich and then they can wave his, they can decline his team option before July and basically just cut Draymond's contract out and get the 24th pick. Is that like, am I crazy to think Draymond might actually be on the table as a trade asset or am I overthinking it? Or do you think they'd be afraid to trade him?

afraid to trade him. I don't think they'd be afraid to trade him. I'm sure there's probably some days they want to trade him, right? The only thing that I would say specific to the Knicks. I'm afraid to trade him because that's Curry's guy. Now you're trading your franchise guy who he's put his neck out for him a million times and now you're like, hey, we've traded Draymond. The guy that even last year when he disappeared for 12 games, your stats went down because he wasn't on the team anymore and then he came back and you were fine again. And now he's not on our team.

Looking at it from just a basketball and Knicks part of it, I'd be worried to have another non-spacer on the floor with whatever center they're paying or playing, whether it's Hartenstein, Mitchell Robinson. Well, then that means you're playing Draymond in one of those spots. So now with Brunson, who just had this insane year,

Are you worried about clogging things up defensively if you have Draymond on the perimeter at some point? And then you've got. So what is the Draymond team then? I think you're right. So what is the Draymond team then? Probably doesn't exist. Oh, so you're like bearing. Imagine if you were on Charlotte. Grant Williams and Draymond together. Hey, and aside, Grant Williams found a way to still be fucking annoying.

He's not even on the team. He's not even on the team anymore. And for anybody who thinks that that's cool, in that world, that is one of the least cool things you could possibly do. You're not on the team anymore. Meanwhile, nobody saw Marcus for three weeks. Yeah. I mean, Marcus is MIA. We haven't even heard from him. If someone told me, hey, Grant Williams walked into the Celtics locker room after they won the title, I'd start dying laughing. Be like, that's a good joke. I was like, nope. Yeah, that was tough. Let's take one more break. I had one more thing to throw you.

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All right. I had one last basketball thing for you. I was thinking about Danny Ainge, 2016-17, ending up with Brown and Tatum and the all-time GM draft heaters in back-to-back drafts. And I went through all the drafts trying to figure out, I mean, there's been some great ones, right? Like Houston got Sampson and Akeem back-to-back. Orlando got Shaq and Penny. Minnesota got Garnett and Marbury. Miami got Karan Butler doing wage. Chicago got Noah and Rose. Memphis took

Triple J and John Bain all in a row. I'm talking about degree of difficulty back-to-back drafts where both picks were either a little risky or a little left field or just like when it worked out, people went, wow, that turned out to be a great pick. So here are the nominees.

Utah, Stockton, and Malone back-to-back. The Stockton pick especially in 84. Malone fell, but the Stockton pick was like, whoa, who's that guy? Where did he go? Detroit got Dumars and then Sally and Rodman back-to-back. Seattle got Sean Kemp and Gary Payton back-to-back. The Payton pick was easy. The Kemp pick was not easy. Toronto got McGrady and Vince back-to-back, which was, I don't think that, McGrady was right around where he was supposed to go. And then Vince,

It's kind of right around where he was supposed to go. It was. OKC took KD second easy, but then Russ and Harden in 08 and 09, and they also had a Bach in 08. But the Russ Harden picks, just let's stop here for a second, were like kind of crazy picks, right? They seem like they're totally logical now, but like everyone loved Russ. Nobody thought he was going to go fourth. And then they took Harden over Rubio and Curry, which at the time was, I don't know, controversial.

The Westbrook pick is, despite my long history talking about the guy, is a phenomenal pick because you still have Kevin Love there. I had PJ Carlissimo on the show a bunch of different times, and he was there, and he was telling Presti, he's like, I think we should take Rick Lopez.

And Brooke felt like he fell quite a bit. Yeah, he did. And in the beginning of Brooke's career, it was like, oh, that's why he went to it. He doesn't rebound enough. He catches it too far away and all these different things. And he like once he started shooting threes, he completely changed his game around. So, I mean, he's an awesome story. But Westbrook, I'm telling you, it was not some no brainer. You weren't quite sure what he was. And everyone liked him. Everyone liked him. Nobody thought he should go for it. Like literally nobody.

We're talking about Castle and some of these non-point guard projected to be point guard guys. Look, I don't know that Westbrook ever actually became a point guard, first of all. But when you're thinking about taking him fourth with other options on the board, it's...

It's incredible vision. I mean, Presti, you want to talk heaters, that's back-to-back-to-back MVPs, 07, 08, 09. So that's our number one heater so far. Golden State took Clay in 2011, and then the Barnes-Draymond combo in 12. That was pretty good. Brown and Tatum for Boston in 16. And then we'll see what happens with Chet, Jalen Williams in the same draft in 22, and then Wallace in 23 if Wallace ends up becoming really good. That's another...

heater and a half. I think the thing with Brown and Tatum, I went back and I read all the, all the mocks in 2016. Cause I couldn't remember, um, what, what was supposed to happen.

So everyone had Simmons and Ingram one, two, like everybody. That was it. It was its own thing. And then people were like, the draft starts at three. And then nobody knew what was going to happen. And what's funny is, so I went, I looked at Gavone had Chris Dunn third, Chris Heald, Marquis Chris, who was bust. Marquis Chris, yeah. Buddy Heald, Jamal Murray, Dragan Bender, and he had Jalen eighth. Chad Ford had Dunn, Chris, Murray, Bender, Jalen seventh.

The ringer, we did a mock draft that year. It was our first year. Bender third, Chris fourth, Dunn healed Jalen. Bleacher had Dunn, Chris, Murray healed Bender, Jalen eighth. CBS had Dunn, Bender, Murray healed Chris, Jalen eighth. And the only one who had Jalen third, who wasn't working for the ringer yet, Kevin O'Connor, writing for SB Nation. Jalen Brown third, Chris fourth, Bender fifth, Dunn sixth, Murray seventh. Did Ainge get to him?

Maybe he had inside info. How about KOC? That's good for him, man. My dad and I were talking this week about when Jalen got booed on draft night. And I, you know, it was eight years ago and I can barely remember anything more. And I was like, yeah, right. I, what did they, because they thought we were taking Murray and going back. And it was like, I think people thought the Celts were taking Chris Dunn because he was a Providence guy. Yeah. And it wasn't, oh, they really wanted Murray instead. Murray was the same thing. People are like, is this guy good or not?

And you go back and you read all the mock draft stuff and it's just like phenomenal athlete will definitely have an NBA body unclear if he can shoot or dribble was basically the consensus. Jamal Murray was like, uh, possible. He check guy, uh,

you know, anyway, Danny takes him third. And then the Tatum thing, the following year where he has the first pick and trades back and everyone has, I went back and looked at those two. Everyone has faults first, everybody. And then Lonzo second to the Lakers. And just everyone assumes that's happening, which it does. And he just knows he's getting Tatum. Um, what a fucking heater that was for Danny. Like, I feel like he has to get a championship ring. I'm sure he will. I mean, I'm one, right? Yeah. I would be shocked if they did. I'd say that's,

Look, the Brown one I didn't like because there was such a mess at Cal. The team stunk and I just didn't know what to make of him. But when I talked to people about it after the fact, it was like, look, his body and his athleticism and these wings that everybody was coveting and considering everything else that was kind of in the mix there. And look, if the Celtics didn't like Chris Dunn and they were just an hour over away from him.

over an hour away from him, then that should have been like a warning to anybody else. Like I might have been, if I had Chris Dunn like fifth and I was picking fifth and he was still there and the Celtics didn't take him, I might tell the room, hey, we're not taking Chris Dunn then. Because if Danny didn't like him to take him third and took Chandler Brown. Well, especially to put him with Smart where it just would have been like, oh my God, two pitbulls, two pitbull defensive cards. Holy shit, that's going to be nuts. And they were like, no thanks. Yeah, that's just not what you're hoping to do because Smart still scored more at Oklahoma State

I don't know what the points per game was, but I just felt like Smart was somebody that gave you a little bit more offense, even if it was kind of sporadic throughout his pro stuff. The Tatum one I loved. When I was doing the draft that year, I was always shocked that

And I have the receipts for this of like, why isn't Tatum even in the conversation for one? This guy's huge. Yeah. A great, he'd hurt his foot. So he didn't get the full season. So it seemed like people cooled on him. And the pre-draft conversations I was having with teams is Lonzo was more of a like, Hey, how come Lonzo's not going one?

And apparently Fultz, everything that he had done in some of the international stuff when he was younger, before he'd had the injury and then all the other stuff that happened to him, apparently he was just insane. It could really go. But if you just watch the freshman part of it, I kept coming back to Tatum going like, this is kind of the thing that everybody should want for Ainge to get another pick. And this is like the bigger Ainge part of it. So Ainge in 11...

Takes Marshawn Brooks, but trade him for Juwan Johnson, right? Yeah. Sullinger and Fab Mello in 12. Yeah. Smart, 14. Good pick. I like Randall better. Whatever. James Young, 17. That was your guy, Bill. Tough. Rozier, really good pick in 15. RJ Hunter, 28th, whatever. And then he takes Jalen Brown in 16. So there was this push, and I know you remember this. There was this push where all of a sudden people thought Ainge sucked. And...

I always wonder like, wait, after 15 and 16, like it's nice if you can get a couple hits there, but you can go through everybody's resume, man.

and go like look at presti who we just mentioned durant westbrook harden three mvps in a row takes mitch mcgary 21st takes terence ferguson 21st traded to take poku 21st um right there's there's misses there i mean jerry west i remember being in the building at a celtics draft party doing the broadcast and jerry west jerry west trades to danny

Marcus Banks, and then the pick for perk so that he can take Troy Bell and Dante Jones. And I, at first we thought Boston drafted Troy Bell and Dante Jones. You're like, what are you guys doing? And Jerry West actually prefer. So all the great ones have stretches. We were like, what's going on? What happened with age when people turned on him, it felt like they were getting mad at him for the stuff that wasn't as significant and ignoring when it was the really big stuff.

He was awesome at the trades, the better picks, manipulating the Rondo thing that year, Al Jefferson, Delonte West, that Tony Allen, that's one class. You know, Grant, who we can make fun of. Also not trading Paul Pierce. Never wanted to trade Paul Pierce. The only bad one for Danny was the Justice Winslow. I mean, that was really, if you go back and you think, what are the biggest Danny disasters? Miami just say no to those four first round picks, which at least one of those would have been Tatum or Brown.

with all those picks in there. That would have been the bad one for him. I thought the first thing he did was one of the worst trades because he wanted it to won out so bad. The Rafe contract, yeah. And then to get Rafe off, they flip it for Theo Ratliff and they give up that pick for...

um, that ends up being a top 10 pick, but then they salvage that draft by going back and getting Rondo. Cause they can't believe that he's even still on the board. So it almost feels like somebody complaining about their husband and you're like, well, what does he do? And he's like, well, when he drinks, he smokes and he yells at officials in high school games. Like, okay, but what, tell me the rest of it. Um, he's an incredible dad. He's a selfless lover. He makes a lot of money, you know, he's at some, so wait, he's there for you emotionally.

He doesn't tear it up every weekend with his buddies. When he goes golfing, he doesn't drink gin and tonics. He drinks light beer. You know what I'm saying? All the important stuff, Ainge is basically aced. And there was this weird three- or four-year window where people started getting on his case about a stretch of draft picks that usually weren't going to have much return anyway. And I never quite understood that. And I just think people don't like Ainge.

I heard a great story about the J.R. Giddens pick where they had won the title and then they had like basically two days until the draft and they, it was like their first time in that whole experience and they just were not prepared for the draft at all and frantically working out people and, and,

felt so badly about how the draft went. They had this whole policy from that point on about how to actually do the draft if we're deep in the playoffs, because they'd never had a playoff run with that whole administration. So from 2008, they learned, okay, we have to, even though we're in the playoffs and all this is happening, we have to learn how

starting in April, this happens and we got a, here's an off day for potentially the finals and we'll have workouts that day and just laid it in. But that's, that's kind of stuff you don't realize that you're actually doing it. Look, they had a Brad Stevens, Austin age. Those guys were in there at a draft workout the morning after smelling like champagne. The two things that I think with age that were nuts were first of all,

He sees the future with wings and switchable D. Like they really, that really was his philosophy. Like, and that was why they wanted to get Hayward too. We want big wings that can score and create and switch on defense, which now is like what everybody wants. And then the other thing, which we've talked about a lot in the past was like, just took two pedigree guys. Jalen was the number four guy in the 2016 class. Tatum was number three in 2017. And like, that was another thing. Danny would always shift to the pedigree.

Like you did that with Avery Bradley that year. Avery Bradley was like the number one guy in high school. And then he fell to 19. Um, but when you look back, man, that's, those are, uh, two of the best back to backers ever. All right. We're still, we don't talk a lot of hockey, uh, but we're going to do so because tomorrow is one of the biggest Stanley cup game sevens ever Edmonton down three, nothing in the finals. They roar back behind the best part in the world right now. Connor McDavid, they tie the series. They have to go to sunrise, Florida, uh,

which is outside of Miami between Miami and Fort Lauderdale. You're still not sure, huh? I looked at the map. I still don't know what county it's in. Conor McDavid has a chance to win his first title ever. And if you watch this series, which we both did, the first three games, it just looked like Florida was better, more physical, faster. And then it flips in game four blowout.

And it's like, all right, Edmonton safe face game five. They outplayed Florida and then game six outplayed him too. And it really feels like they can do it. But I guess my question, I'm going to lay out why I think this is the biggest game seven in seven decades, but give us your hockey thoughts. Cause you never get to give us hockey thoughts here.

I love it. I look forward to it in a way that's so fun. I'm just such a casual with it. It's fun being a casual. It is great, isn't it? Yeah, because you don't really care. And then you're watching probably for the wrong reasons. And that's why when I think of these transcendent players and why every league is like, can we have somebody like a LeBron or a Steph Curry or Kaitlin Clark in the WNBA right now? Baseball has been desperately searching for it. The NFL doesn't really have to worry about it because it's limited resources.

inventory on sundays so when i think about hockey and when i first started watching mcdavid going like wait what did he like let me rewind that he just went past everyone on the ice like how is that i can watch mcdavid just turn and not even shoot he could just be in the offensive is he the greatest skater of anything has anyone ever skated better than him in any facet of life

There's probably some people from Finland and speed skating that we're forgetting, but I don't know. I don't know their names. Like if you gave a speed skater, a hockey stick, would they, but I just, I'm with you. I watched McDavid and I'm just like,

How is he going that fast when everyone in hockey is fast now? It's not like Bobby Orr in 1969, right? When he's just zooming by these dudes. He just looks like he came out of a time machine. Now everyone's fast in hockey. And McDavid's somehow faster than all of the guys that are fast. At his size. When they get set to kind of like go on the break, it's almost like Magic Johnson in the 80s. Yeah. And it's not the same level of production, but he'll...

get everybody set up and then everybody kind of like fans out and then he just goes right to the line and he's through despite everybody trying to like load up to him and get ready but when they're set and allowed him to just kind of

fly down, fly on the ice. He gets through, gets the puck into the offensive zone and then they're on and trying to figure out what they're going to do. But then there'll be other times where if they're on the power play, I'll notice he'll just do this little turn and he doesn't even shoot off of it, but he gets the whole defense to kind of collapse one way because the turn is so precise and so quick. And I can just, I'm serious. It's like watching figure skating. I can just watch him skate and I'm entertained even without all the other stuff.

Yeah. Gretzky had this too, that, that Steve Nash move where Nash would just dribble on the right. He would go under the basket, but not do anything and bring it back out and then turn back. And it would be like, Oh, he's giving up on this play. Oh no, he didn't. And McDavid, like the greatest hockey players who have this speed and the touch. And this was a big Bobby or thing back when, when I was growing up was he would do the around the net and everybody was so freaking slow back then he could actually either jam it in or do whatever. Um,

He's certainly the fastest hockey player I can ever remember watching. He's certainly one of the best hockey players. And casual Bill has ever watched. We didn't mention Drysaddle yet, who is also like the perfect, perfect playoff guy. I'm not positive I trust their goalie. Who knows in these game sevens, but I went back.

There's been 18 game sevens in the finals and Rangers Vancouver would be the obvious pick for the biggest game seven ever because the Rangers, they hadn't won the cup in 54 years. They had that great series, the series before everybody in New York was behind it was Nick's Rangers that whole summer. It was just a great New York, everything. And that one's a big one. Bork winning his first cup in 01 was a big one, but I don't think it was as big as the Rangers one. This is where I landed Rosillo 1955.

Detroit versus Montreal in the Stanley Cup Finals. Gordie Howe on the Red Wings. And the Red Wings end up winning 3-1. But this was the year of the Richard Riots, which I don't know if you've ever deep dived. This was a big hockey story when I was growing up. Maurice Richard. Rocket Richard? Rocket Richard. Who are you talking to? Gets in a fight during a Bruins game. Howe Lakehawk, Bruins defenseman. High sticks him. And it's a delayed penalty.

And Richard is bleeding and the play ends and he skates up to Laco who thinks they're going to fight. And he just starts like swinging his stick Juan Marichal style on him and hitting him. And he's hitting him and he's hitting him in the face of Childers and the linesman restrain him. He breaks away. He's still hitting him. And then the linesman Cliff Thompson comes in and corrals him. And Richard punches the linesman, knocks him out. This is this actual thing that happens in a hockey game.

And the commissioner to suspense him for the rest of the playoffs. And they riot in Montreal and they call it the Richard riots. You can look this up in Wikipedia and he's out for the rest, out for the rest of the playoffs and Detroit, Montreal ends up going to a game seven anyway, and Detroit wins. I don't know how you top that. I was trying to think of what, imagine that now if let's say Giannis just

punched Scott Foster in the face and knocked him out as part of a bench-going brawl. I feel like that would be a big deal. I think it would be a big deal. I think it would lead first take the next morning.

Well, what would happen now is it would just mean that he's not capable of winning. He doesn't, whatever thing he had in 21, he doesn't have anymore. And then it's all getting to him and who could you trade him for and all this different stuff. It's like, maybe he just lost his shit that night. Maybe he's still awesome. So it's either Rangers Vancouver or the Rashard riots. But I think Connor McDavid winning his first Stanley cup and coming back three Oh, in a series would have to rank up there. It would also be amazing for hockey. I mean, you could argue tomorrow's hockey game, uh,

could be the most watched and discussed hockey game probably in 30 years since that Rangers game. Does that seem fair? Yeah. By the way, they were down 3-0. They won it 7, 1942. Maple Leafs. Okay. So it has happened in the finals. No, I knew that it had, but then you started making me think. You know what else is interesting, though? Like, A, when teams up 3-0 or whatever,

And then here's the stats and why no one ever comes back. It's usually because whoever is up 3-0 is that much better than the team that is down 3-0. And at no point, now granted, when Florida's rolling, they look so fast. They look like they're so deep. Whether it's their awesome pairing on the defensive side of things and Rodriguez, who's been incredible at certain moments, the beginning of this thing, also against Boston.

But I always felt like the forwards for Edmonton, it was just they were stacked with guys. Their defensive pairing may not be as good, but I didn't even feel like Skinner was that much of a problem. It felt like every time there was a turnover for Edmonton, it led to a great goal opportunity, even though it felt like Edmonton was right in those games with Florida throughout. So them coming back

I never felt like there was this massive talent deficit where you're like, oh, you guys just can't skate with Florida. Well, remember when the Kings came back from 3-0 against San Jose 10 years ago? I know you're fixated on that. You were living in Connecticut at the time. That was pretty fun, though. I would stay up for those. Those were good ones. Yeah. We had the season tickets that year for the Kings, so I was actually following that comeback. The thing is, hockey is more random than basketball. I think basketball, if you're up 3-0,

I don't think we'll ever see it unless somebody gets hurt on the team that's up. It's just too hard. You don't have the same. Never. We'll see it. It'll happen. You think in a final? I mean, look, it almost happened in 23. If Tatum doesn't turn his ankle, I'm talking about a finals. Oh, finals. Oh yeah. And I, it seems inconceivable to me. Hockey seems way more conceivable and even baseball now, probably like with the, with the, how weird the pitching is now. Like I can see it happening in baseball and the world series too. Um, who's your pick?

Edmonton, loyal to the oil. So I had a big Celtics-Panthers parlay. And then I watched game five and I was like, Edmonton just has a look to them. I'm going to hedge out of this bet in game six. I'm just going to take Edmonton.

They covered. Now I'm playing with house money with the bet, deciding whether to take it. I think Edmonton's going to win. Also, not positive home ice really matters that much in hockey. Do you think it does? It's fun when you're up, but for the most part, like the Bruins went into Vancouver 2011. I don't know. It's just...

Well, it feels like it means something in Edmonton. Going back to Edmonton for game six, that place, I get the chills every time. Yeah. I want to go to a game there so bad. It would have been probably smart to try to go during this, but a little busy with the basketball stuff.

I think it mattered there. And Florida's crowd's awesome. You know what it matters? But this has nothing to do with home. It has to do with the dread that every player on Florida has lingering and how much they're going to let that fuck with them leading up to Monday night. Now Edmonton certainly has pressure because they're back in this and a chance to win a Stanley Cup. But this is a tough demon to be fighting. And some players are just...

dumb enough to be like, whatever. I don't care. I'm not going to let this bother me. There's no way the entire roster, there aren't going to be some guys out there, especially if Edmonton gets on the board first, thinking, are we really going to be the guys that go down in history like this?

We know it's been fun getting the 2004 ALCS highlights will be great tomorrow night. Can't wait for those. I've decided with game seven, the ice where it is doesn't matter. It's the first goal seems to matter. So if you're at home, like Edmonton game six, they get the goal in the first period.

And the crowd, it's just like there's just this weird confidence that comes from that. And conversely, like the Bruins-Canucks game was the opposite, right? You get that first one and now the crowd's like, this sphincter is just tightened. It's like, oh my God, down 1-0. It just feels like it's like 5-0 in a game seven. The goals are so hard. I think Edmonton's better. I'll tell you this. I can't say about Florida. I've talked about it in the past. I don't like their team. I don't like some of the players in them. And I'm all in on Edmonton.

I like Reinhardt a lot. I love their head trainer. Head trainer. No, I mean, Gustav's awesome. I don't know if Obrowski's been as good. I was listening to NHL radio this weekend. That's how into this I've been. Wow. I've been reading articles. Yeah, I just go, you know what? Who's like the Justin Termini of NHL radio? Is there somebody on there just cranking out takes? I didn't catch a name, but one show, and you'll love this. You'll love this one, Bill.

The guy said he felt like Paul Maurice had outcoached Nablok the first three games, but it's been entirely different. Yeah, that Maurice has been outcoached the last three. Now, were there any specifics? Not a one, but it was just good to know that they do it in that sport too.

And hockey seems to have less rhyme or reason with the coaching than any sport. I sat behind that Kings net for four years and I still don't understand what strategies were going on. And I'm literally watching them go. And it just seems like they're skating around. I know they're not. I just can't personally pick it up. I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. I do want to like, what play is that? It just seems like, Hey, try harder than them. And what's your horse rushing the net? Yeah. Horns. Uh, I'll say this about, uh,

Florida. So they're down three, nothing in the third period, but they got a goal at the beginning of third period. I feel like if that was three, nothing with 10 minutes left, all the cheap shot shit would have started because they love doing that, but it was three one. So they kind of had to be disciplined because they thought maybe they have a chance to get it closer, but that team is going to be really fun to watch. All right, let's talk about the Karen retrial. That was the last thing we had on our docket. I urged you a week ago to, to bone up. I knew you would love it,

Um, you promised me you would. Oh, and I did your, your initial thoughts. Uh, all of my friends are obsessed with it that are from the area. And I was back in Boston for about a month. And my favorite part of it was that there was always a guy that actually knew like, well, here's what really went down. And then, Oh, the inside story. Yeah. Where'd you get that from? Uh, it was kind of like when everybody had a relative from the Pentagon during COVID, uh,

It's like, hey, gas up and get cash. So I just, it checks so many boxes for the Massachusetts drama. So I don't know what to make of any of it. It seems like the prosecution's case falls apart by the day. I know you know more of the specifics. So I want you to kind of take the lead on this instead of you just asking me what I think, because I need to play off of you more on this. I've never seen a trial before.

where the prosecution inadvertently is making the defense's case as they're allegedly laying out their case for why Karen Reid did it. But then they're also laying out this entire case for why she didn't do it. There's like timelines, there's texts, there's incriminating stuff. There's friends searching how long does it take for a body to freeze outside or whatever that was at like two o'clock.

And then they're like, no, no, it was actually at six o'clock when they searched that. And then somebody comes in and goes, no, no, it was at 2.09 a.m. She searched how long to freeze in the cold. It's just so obvious that there was some sort of fight at the place and they panicked and dumped him outside and didn't realize how bad he was and then tried to pin it on this lady is my take. I feel pretty strongly about it.

We go over the events here. So John O'Keefe's a Boston cop and he's dating Karen Reed, right? Yes. And two of the most Massachusetts names you're going to get to, by the way. Right. And they all end up in an after hours after they're seen on video in a bar together where it doesn't look like there's any issues.

O'Keefe goes to the house of another cop for this party. Yeah. And this house is owned by these neighbors that are from Canton. And they have a son who's somehow involved in this as well. Okay. Is that the one who has the scraped knuckles three weeks later? There's the picture of him. He's got.

Knuckles that looked like he punched somebody repeatedly? Yeah, and he said that he fell down in the driveway or something. Right. So they alleged that Karen Reid got into a fight with O'Keefe, just argument, and the prosecution's tried to develop a pattern that they used to argue a lot and fight, which appears to be pretty established based on some of the other testimony. But according to that night,

Reed is accused of hitting O'Keefe with her car, just backing up into him 25 feet away and then leaving him for dead. Well, they said she went 24 miles an hour backwards to ram into him, which is really fast to go backwards. Just in general, 24 miles an hour is like not slow. And also not being able to get out of the way. Yeah, she was inebriated, but she wasn't inebriated enough to just perfectly go 24 miles an hour backwards and ram into this guy.

Okay, so apparently she goes home and then is freaked out when he's not home. And starts calling him and leaving messages. Right, right. Which was always my weird serial season one with Adnan Syed where I always thought it was a big hole in his defense that it's like, wait, so this girl's missing and she'd been this big part of your life and you'd never once ever reached out to her? Yeah. That was like the one thing I could never get past. So...

So Karen is now wondering where her boyfriend is, or if you believe the prosecution, she already knows that she's making these calls to cover her bases later on. Yeah, they're insinuating that she's leaving all these messages to cover her own tail and check in when she's really putting her own alibi with the messages. Okay. So then they had other paramedics and EMTs show up on the scene.

where they try to say that she confessed to hitting him, but that's not in the original police report. The video of her on a ring camera on her app to the place where she lived with O'Keefe, the footage of her returning, that video's erased.

And then people on the other side of it, their phone is either destroyed or things were deleted, except for the one Google search that there was a huge, to your point, discrepancy on the time of Googling how long does it take for you essentially to die in the cold. So isn't there something else weird too where he had dog bites on him? He had dog bites on his arm. And the neighbor's dog is now missing. It was relocated. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and then there's the other piece of they can't seem to figure out why his iPhone, where you can track whether you went where you walked. He definitely went up flights of stairs and went down where they were just saying he was outside the house and just got hit. There were people that went by. There was a snowplow guy who was like, what was that guy's name? Lucky, I think his name was. And he went by and he's like, yeah, I drove by twice. I didn't see anybody on the

on the side of the road. And then he became a hero to the people who think Karen Reed's innocent. Then you have that guy, Turtle Boy, who's got thrown in jail because he's so convinced Karen Reed's innocent that they felt like he was hindering the investigation. He's been reporting on it every day. So the circus around the trial has become way bigger than the trial. It's one of the biggest Massachusetts trials of all time. And everybody is arguing about what they think happened

And then there's some people who are like, she did it. Well, they're doing a bad job in the she did it part of it. And seems like I can read everything that everybody else is looking at here. And you just wonder, like, imagine like, what if I think the defense is only calling three witnesses tomorrow and then closing arguments are scheduled for Tuesday.

And I imagine that that's because they don't want as much crossing as the defense did with the state's witnesses. Yeah. Because like even the snowplow guy, it was, it was funny because they were like, well, wait a minute, how good is your vision or something? And they're like, didn't you hit a basketball hoop? And he was like, yeah, I hit a basketball hoop. They're like, well, if you hit a basketball hoop, then he's like, yeah, well, I tried to not hit it and I hit it. I saw it.

and I tried to not hit it and I was plowing and I fucking hit a hoop. Like what? So that means that the rest of this doesn't even make any sense. Like I'm not a good, I'm not a good source of information by not noticing this body before. Uh,

Um, there's just, there's just a bunch of little parts of this and then Proctor, the lead investigator, whether it's his text messages about Reed and then how all of these people seem to be connected in some way. Seems like he's buddies with half the people that might know what actually happened to John O'Keefe.

Not to mention the texts and about pretty, pretty derogatory about her. And he's supposed to be the person who is supposed to be looking at this objectively. Yeah. It's just, it's so over the top for people in the bag trying to create

some sort of version of events that weren't the actual events and the police being involved. It seems like a parody of like a Netflix documentary or like a Hulu documentary or something like you would watch this, but no, come on, stop it. Dude. I mean, the text messages that came out on June 10th and then they had Proctor, Lieutenant Proctor, uh, who's 44. He called Karen Reed a whack job, the C word.

referred to her as a babe with no ass. Yeah, the no ass was weird. Making fun of her Fall River accent, which, hey, I mean, who hasn't done that? But then he joked about looking through her phone for nude photos during the investigation. Now, you could argue, hey, that's still irrelevant to like what, but the way the defense has been able to let, the defense is just doing an incredible job because it seems like every time the prosecution

is pointing something out, it's immediately destroyed. There's just too many inefficiencies here with this. And I always wonder what it would be like to either be Reed and be innocent, or are all of us caught up in all of these things that don't make any sense, and then presuming that she's actually innocent and she isn't,

And I thought about the different people that would have to look at her if she's not guilty and look at her in their courtroom and all be so aligned to avoid their own trouble, which is, I guess, the human nature of the instinct to survival, right? To just look at her knowing that she's actually innocent of this whole thing. But trying to prove this, like by the standard of how you would have to prove her to be found guilty of second degree murder.

there certainly seems to be a lot of issues for a juror to go, well, I don't, I don't know that we can, you know, prove this beyond reasonable doubt. Right. And there's weird taillight stuff where her taillight was eventually broken. But if you looked at some ring videos, it wasn't broken immediately. And there was three pieces. Then there were more pieces. Uh, you forgot to mention the, you did a great recap, by the way, I knew you would love this. The, uh, defense attorney, uh,

I'm just thinking about our people overseas. Central casting for the defense attorney. It's just like, yeah, we got Casey Affleck. He's going to be the defense attorney. It's a great part. It's going to steal the movie. Possible best supporting actor nom. It's one of those rare trials where you can just see the movie or the one season Apple TV show or the five episode Netflix documentary. And we don't even know how it's going to play out yet, but it's a lot. I'm sure there's going to be like four different versions of

of this out there, right? Yeah, this feels a little bit like Theranos where there's going to be dueling content projects going on all at the same time. Scarlett Johansson's going to be Karen Reid, but also Blake Lively's going to be playing Karen Reid. Blake Lively should be Karen Reid. I don't want to hear about anybody else. I don't want to hear anyone else. That goes to Blake Lively. Let's not screw around. She doesn't even have to read a script. Just give her

the job. But every time I would get more information and getting caught up in all this thing, I'd go, so wait, the, the sun was next door, but then, and they didn't like each other or something. Yeah. And there's red flags all over the place. We should just mention exactly. Yeah. Canton is like in that Hockamog league area of, you know, it's like Foxborough, uh,

Brockton, Canton, East. And it's like probably a little close to where the Patriots play, but just far enough away that it's not like right where the Patriots play, but it's, you know,

Also not close to Boston either. It's in that neck of the woods for Massachusetts. And all the stuff you read in the, like the, first of all, the Reddit page for it is phenomenal and they do a good job at editing it or updating it and what's happening here and screenshots of different things. But it's just like this Massachusetts trial gone wrong. And for all the like fun, entertaining ways, if you love, love following shit like this, it's the best trial in a while.

Where anyone I know who's into it is like, can you fucking believe this? That's why I was pushing you last week. I was like, you just got to deep dive it. You got to do it. I'm convinced she's innocent. Conspiracy bill is on Karen Reed's side. I don't get this dog thing. The dog bites. Oh, one of the forensics people was like, it's definitely dog bites. Right. Definitely. And then they're like, where's the dog? And we're like, oh, gave it away. Right.

It would seem like where they want you to go when you read all this stuff is goes to the house. There's some sort of fight in the house, gets attacked by the dog during the fight, gets hit, gets knocked out. They put him outside at some point and he dies, I guess would be the consensus if you don't think she did it.

The other thing that would have to happen is she is drinking and goes backwards 24 miles an hour and rams into him. Somehow gets away with it. Nobody sees it, hears it. That's the other thing. Nobody sees or hears the car hitting this guy outside, right? I'm pretty sure somebody would notice that if you're all hanging out. I don't know. If there's a party and there's music on. 24 mile an hour just ramming somebody from behind? Sonos surround sound. The sound bar.

So you're going not guilty. Based on everything I have access to, this doesn't make any sense. Amazing stuff. The prosecution has done a bad job convincing me. I encourage all the listeners to go listen to it. All right, that's it for the pod. We'll see what happens with Karen Reid. We'll see what happens with the Edmonton Oilers. We'll see what happens with the draft. Not sure what our schedule is and your schedule is this week, but we'll figure it out. Thanks to Steve Cerutti and Kyle Crate for producing as well. Priscilla, good to see you.

Brad Stevens on Tuesday. Nice. Congrats.