A Tatum/Brown Convo, Indy in Trouble, Kyrie’s Revival, and Best Defenses Ever With Rob Mahoney, Chris Ryan, and NBA Hall of Famer Isiah Thomas
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Coming up, just a crap load of basketball. Yeah, next. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday. We did Back to the Future Part 2. This coming Monday, Memorial Day, we are doing Fast Times at Ridgemont High. It's going up Monday night. You will also be able to watch it on our YouTube channel, Ringer Movies. Also, I have my own YouTube channel if you want to watch clips from this podcast and shorts and some other stuff. It is youtube.com slash atbillsimmons.

And speaking of ringer stuff, I popped on another podcast. It's going up over the weekend. I think on Friday, the prestige TV podcast, there's no prestige TV right now. So we've been messing around doing hall of fame stuff, doing Bridgerton. We did Abbott and elementary. We're just doing TV shows. We like until a prestige comes back. The bears coming back in a month. So it'll be fine. But Julia Libman and I celebrated the 30th anniversary of the greatest two part episode in the history of Beverly Hills, 90210.

Mr. Walsh goes to Washington. Yeah, that's coming for you on Friday. We broke down season four, culminating in a part two, crazy 90210 episode from 30 years ago. And if you like that show, I would highly recommend this one. So that is on the Prestige TV podcast. On this podcast,

Chris Ryan, Rob Mahoney. We're going to talk about Indiana, Boston tonight. Hal Burton, who looks like he might be done for the series. We'll see if they announce that officially. We have a lot of NBA subplots for you. And then after that, I brought on old friend, Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas to talk about Kyrie Irving, best defenses of all time and a few other things. It's all basketball. It's all next. I'm going to bring him pro champ. I wanted to mention that.

Pearl Jam, the forum last night I went and it was an absolutely awesome, awesome show. My old editor and friend, Kevin Jackson from ESPN, we used to work together, pitched to way back when, giant Pearl Jam fan. He's from Seattle. And he said he's been to, I think, I think it was 44 Pearl Jam shows, 44 or 54. He said it was one of the top four shows he's been to.

The new album is great. So the energy from that plus the catalog, it was just a great, great, great show. They are still at the peak of their powers. They really are. I was so impressed. I had such a great time. And I say this with as much pride as I could possibly muster. Here they are, Pearl Jam. ♪

All right, we're taping this 742 Pacific Time. Just watched Game 2, Indiana, Boston. A series that might be over. Rob Mahoney is here. Chris Ryan is here. Chris Ryan asked if he could drink a beer during this. I said, yeah, because it looks like the Eastern Finals might end up sucking. Hal Burton leaves the game. Same leg, same hamstring as before.

And, uh, CR, if you're the Pacers, you're up three inbound in the ball in game one, you're feeling awesome. Yeah. And then 48 hours later, you're down two games to nothing and your best player is

seemingly has re-injured the same thing that knocked him out for a lot of the middle of the season. Thoughts? Got him right where I want him, if I'm Rick Carlisle. The old rope-a-dope. Soften him up. Make the Jays think it's all over. Time, Nemhard. The Celtics will never be more vulnerable to a flurry of Andrew Nemhard eight-foot jumpers. I would feel pretty heartbroken. You know, when we were getting into halftime and

It just felt like the Celtics should be up by 22 points. And I was like, man, they're not dying. They're just hanging out and Siakam's having this crazy breakout game and maybe a little bit of Boston nerves creeping in just like last time. And yeah, between the barrage of threes, Tatum coming back to life, and then the Halliburton injury, you don't want to say it's over, but it's over, Rob.

It is over. If Halliburton can't play, it is kind of that simple. And look, there's trade-offs to that. Tyrese Halliburton has been, in a lot of ways, the Celtics' easiest path to offense at times in this series. Putting him in the action has been really good for them. But the Pacers are not the same team without him. And I thought Boston in particular, they cranked up their defense, I thought, overall in this game. We think of the Pacers as primarily a jump-shooting outfit. But they were, I think, second in the league in points in the paint this year.

Boston dominated the points in the paint in this game. It was a lot of dancing side to side all night for Indiana. And it took a heroic effort from Pascal Siakam to keep them in the game. And if you can't have your best player on top of an effort like that for any number of games in this series, I think that's going to be all she wrote. So they get Siakam. It's like Bruce Brown.

It's a crappy pick in this year's draft. Yeah. And a couple extra firsts. Yeah. I think two picks this year and then one, the 2026 Pacers pick, I believe. Right. And he's a free agent, but they're going to resign him unless, I don't know, Chris, we'll talk about Philly later, but. Oh, good. I'm glad I had a purpose here. Yeah. Who's going to write the Siakam? Could he go to Philly? Question mark, question mark, question mark story. Maybe that'll be in like two weeks. Um,

But Siakam, when we do the Ringer 100, Rob, it's one of those guys you're making the list and you go, ah, yeah, he's one of the 50 best players in the league. And it felt like a lot of teams could have gotten him. You watch him today, he's going toe-to-toe with Tatum and Brown. And he's just, you know, he's a good player. I do wonder, like Zach Lowe wrote about this for ESPN about the Derek White trade and the mechanics of that and the Josh Hart trade and these trades where it seems like

People are overpaying for guys who aren't like the Donovan Mitchell, you know, Rudy Gobert type massive trades. And is this kind of the new inefficiency? What'd you think of that thesis?

I mean, clearly, those two guys in particular are culture setters. They're not just great players, but they redefine a lot of the way your team operates and the energy and the spirit that they play with. I think the problem with that sort of philosophy as a league-wide takeaway is there aren't a ton of those guys out there, right? There are very good role players, but guys who slot in and do their job and go to work and go home...

There aren't a lot of Derek Whites just sitting around. And so I think that's what makes him so valuable. And what makes him so valuable to the Celtics is these guys aren't just everywhere, but when you can get them, they seem undervalued until they mean everything for your team. Yeah, and I think the role players face the same fate as high-end draft picks or all-stars where it's like, it's an environmental thing. I mean, like PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford

I would cut off my left hand to have either one of those guys playing on the Sixers, but I wouldn't have been able to tell you that at the trade deadline. Yeah, because you need a...

Backup center because your real center doesn't play that much. Is that why you would sacrifice a hand? That's your free hit. So that's one. That's it? That's one. And then Boston Chris is going to come out. You think you're better than me? You think you're better than me? The PJ Washington thing, I still don't totally understand because...

I don't understand how you could watch a guy on a bad team where everybody's just going for their own stats basically for a few years and then just kind of instinctively know. Even we're watching it in real time. I didn't feel like he was that guy in February or March, April. There were some signs. But Rob, did you see him becoming like this Robert Horry type potential guy for a championship team? What were the signs? Yeah.

I mean, there's clearly signs in skill set, right? And we've been talking about those for years. It's the reason why we've been talking through PJ Washington trades for season after season after season. What he can do is theoretically appealing to lots of teams. But it still seemed pretty theoretical to me until we saw it in Dallas. And Gafford is a similar exercise, except as an energy big instead of a stretch big.

It is hard to read guys in those situations. In theory, teams are doing background. They're trying to talk to everyone that they can to get information on what these guys' actual work habits are.

but realistically, I still think it's a bit of a crapshoot as far as that goes. You're going to strike out with some of those players you try to acquire, and you're going to hit the jackpot with your P.J. Washington, too. I think what Dallas did well is they did identify guys who could play with Luka and Kyrie very, very well and who don't necessarily need...

the ball on a really consistent basis to be able to summon lots of energy and play with a lot of energy. So that's something you can pick out on tape as to whether it's going to be a perfect kind of cultural fit every single time. I mean, I'm as lost as anybody.

See, Chris's team doesn't think this way because they're all about three all-stars. Who's the third? I don't know. Tobias? It's Paul George. He's dying to leave Los Angeles. We'll talk about that later. Can we talk, C.R., you're a narrative guy. Yeah. We've talked narratives a few times. I'm a narrative guy, but just don't skip me when it comes to the legacy because I'm also a legacy guy. You're a legacy and a narrative guy. Interesting. Yeah.

People are bored already with this Boston, Indiana series. So Boston wins game one and it still turns into a two day Tatum referendum. And I know from a Celtics organization all the way up standpoint, they're really frustrated with the Tatum coverage.

You know, for the sense he's 26 years old, he scored more playoff points than any player in his first seven years ever. He's made three first team all NBAs. He made first all team NBA this year. As an all around guy, he's been really impactful and has gotten better at that year after year. And if there's a nitpick, it's something I've talked about over and over again, which is that his three point shooting just hasn't been good enough. And I think I saw, I looked up his game log, his last 14 games before tonight.

He was 24% in the playoffs from three. Tonight he was one for seven, but he's carrying himself like he's this 40 plus percent three point shooter. So if you're gonna pick him on that, great. But the all around game is really good. Is he Luka? Is he Giannis? Is he? - No, he's not. - He's not. Is he LeBron in 2013? He's not.

No. But is he in the vicinity of where Kevin Durant was on those OKC teams? He is. Maybe he's not as good as Durant was, but in terms of being an impactful forward. I don't ever have the spiritual experience watching Jason Tatum that I did watching Kevin Durant. We're not talking about that. I'm talking numbers and impact. OK. You asked about narrative. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Durant was the literal MVP in the seasons you're talking about. I get it. I love Kevin Durant. I'm just saying from a numbers standpoint, he's in the vicinity. And from a winning standpoint, he's been incredibly successful as the best player on a team that over and over again is in the top four of the top two.

And yet now we've hit the point where people are like, fuck this. He's not that good. And you could feel it the last couple of days based on what happened in game one. We talked about it in this podcast where if Brown does a bail amount on that three, it's two days of Tatum, Tatum, Tatum. What the hell is going on with this guy? Which is what it turned into being anyway. So then he sucks in the first half of game one. What do you think it's here? Uh, I'm thinking that this guy probably is.

is not basing the level of competition that he needs to. And I was thinking that the whole night watching this game. That first game was really fun, you know, and it was really exciting. And, you know, it was like watching Keystone Cops out there at the end. But when it comes to, like, watching the Western Conference playoffs and watching what it's done to some of these guys and how it's made them raise their game, or in Kyrie's case, like, revive his game to some extent, and just watching, like, these guys reputationally, but also obviously performance-wise have to step up because they...

They can't screw up

or screw around the way Tatum did in the first half of this game. And yeah, I'm like, is it unfair? Sure. But I actually like, even for a while tonight, I was like kind of trying to imagine if Tatum and Siakam were on like swap teams and like how we would think about those guys differently. And like, what would Jason Tatum on a like, I'm trying to drag a mid-market team to relevance and just throw it all on my back kind of thing would be and what his sort of persona would be and how it would be different. I think that

Tatum just suffers from being exactly who you just described, which is the 6th or 7th best player. And I don't know. I don't really think he's that cool. I think that's also a thing that happens. He doesn't have that cool of a game. It's very drudgery. It's a lot of drudgery to watch. So that, I think, is mounting up against him. But he had a good second half. They just bodied those guys in the second half. This thing is over.

There's also that thing going on with him and Brown where they do make each other's lives easier in certain ways, but really their primary value to each other is in games like this, where Tatum can be off for a half or three quarters and Jalen Brown can just pick everything up and make it work. And it wasn't just the scoring, but he was the driving force leading to all those threes for Boston, too.

You don't really see that in a lot of other star situations. A lot of the other ones are built in some way to be more directly complimentary. Even when you think about Luka and Kyrie, for example, their games fit together in a way that Tatum and Brown don't necessarily. I'm not saying those guys don't work, don't fit or can't win a championship. Yeah, they like each other, like all those things. Yeah.

clearly it works at a really high level, but it doesn't work at a level that augments both of them and makes them really, really pop. And so when we're talking about what's missing, some of it is that pop. And some of it is the fact that there are just five or six guys who are better than Jason Tatum right now. And that's okay. And frankly, that might not stop Boston from winning the title anyway. Right. Three first team all NBAs ain't nothing. But I have a

And I'm going to say this. I just want people to know this is a joke, but a friend of mine, we always joke about Jalen Brown. He's basically like the middle brother in the family. Jason Tatum's the older brother. So when Tatum has a game like tonight, the first half and Jalen's having a game like he's having, we start joking like, oh my God, this is the Jalen Brown dream game. These guys have been awesome teammates. They pick each other up, but it's just kind of funny back to what Rob said.

it is like a little bit of a seesaw when one guy's down, the other guy goes up and vice versa. And that's a good thing. And when they're home and together, the Celtics are completely unstoppable. But Jalen was awesome today and there was a little sauce behind it. We're taping this before the press conferences after the game, but he didn't get all NBA. And I voted for him. I made the case for him during the awards. I've also, there's been years where I haven't voted for Tatum as the highest team. Like I really try to be

you know, take all the biases out. In this case, like I felt like they won 64 games mainly because of those two guys and mainly because those guys sacrificed a lot and Booker made it.

And I just think there's no way Jalen was worse than Booker this season when you think like he never had to, he never chased his stats. He always did whatever was best for the team. And the team was super successful. They were successful because of those two guys and how hard they played night after night after night, how durable they are. And if we're just not going to reward that with the All-NBA, right?

I don't know what the all NBA is for anymore. Then it's for money. Now winning doesn't matter. It's just, it's a stat award now. Well, it's a contract award, which is kind of perverted in the first place because it just becomes like this thing that's tied to compensation in a way that is like, you know, I don't, I don't have a vote. I wouldn't even know what to do with myself if I had a vote. And it was like, this guy's either going to make 65 million extra dollars or not, like based on whether or not I think he's better than Devin Booker. That's crazy.

Right. Especially when you put, look, we don't need more media members complaining about the responsibility of voting for these things. But I'll say, given what we're talking about now and what we're choosing to award and reward, you want to reward players who are sacrificing for their teams to win. If more money is going to be handed to somebody, let it be the people who are giving up so that their teams can be better. And yet,

We do simplify it with the stats. We do simplify with very often the very basic box score type production and who put up those numbers in a flashier way than somebody else. And Jalen got the short end of the stick in that regard. But I agree with you. He's like he had a better season than Devin Booker. God knows he's a better defender than Devin Booker. And that's a big part of the Tatum conversation, too, that we I think we gloss over a little too easily. Really, really good defender. Yeah.

It has to be a part of the story with those guys. Yeah, it's a case where the stats have kind of gone wrong because Booker, who if you didn't have league pass and you just lived in like a shack somewhere in Alaska and you just looked at box scores, you'd be like, oh yeah, he's one of the best 15 players. That team had a fucked up chemistry all year, which he has to have at least a small part of. I didn't really feel like he made anybody else on his team better. The team was really...

Um, compared to what we all thought was going to happen with them. I think they were pretty disappointing. And Jalen, all he did all year was he guarded all types of players, you know, really took challenges on, like there was games where he carded Zion. I just, I thought he had a really good season. He's sure. He's frustrated. I've been watching him for eight years. He'll do some things. You're like, why'd you take that shot? Or, oh my God. Oh, oh, Jalen's

hasn't taken a shot in five minutes. So, you know, this one's going up like, yeah, everybody's got flaws. Everybody's annoying sometimes, but that guy's a winning player. And he's the second biggest reason they went 64 and 18 right now in the playoffs, they are 10 and two. So this team is 74 and 20 and they had one all NBA player. Meanwhile, the sons and the Lakers had four. Like, what are we doing?

What is this? And then the other thing I was thinking with the ballot is like, let's vote for MVP. Let's vote 10 places because we need the forwards and the guards. Like Jalen was one of the best five or six forwards in the league. If we can't use the LNBA to capture as a snapshot, who are the best guys at the different positions?

then we're doing something wrong. Why are we only voting for five spots for the MVP? Expand that to 10, and that's a better kind of litmus test for the 10 most impactful players. And then we have the Omba teams. Anyway, I thought this was a big reason why Jalen kicked ass tonight, because it's offensive that he didn't make the team. Anyway, that's my rant. CR, any thoughts? I know you hate the Celtics. I do hate the Celtics. I'm pretty...

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I mean, to the extent that I think that these kinds of all NBA slots are...

are like black and white and you can kind of pick this out. I do think that Jalen Brown had a better season than Devin Booker from my opinion. Just as a league pass colon night country guy in an Alaskan shack, you know, who watched 10 games this year. I agree. Yeah, if that's a beat, by the way, I'm signing up for the Alaskan shack beat. I'm into it. Sounds great. Bill, what do you think about the idea, though, about like every other night, it's like you're watching the Western Conference playoffs,

And it feels like you're on a complete bender because it's so awesome and everybody's flying all over the place. The crowds are going crazy. It feels like we're in the front seat of these two emergent franchises that are really finally taking the leap. Don't you think the Celtics are getting punished a little bit because...

Nobody's really like they didn't get the Knicks and they didn't get the Sixers and they didn't get the Bucks and they're just playing the hand that they're dealt. Didn't this happen to LeBron for like eight straight years? It did. But like LeBron was like, we're all sitting here waiting for you to catch Jordan. I feel like LeBron's greatness was so...

was so like amplified, like from the second he got in the league, I know there was always a lot of like, you win the big game, but like, I don't know. I just, I, there was something, I feel like those Pacers, he like those, there were some series in the Eastern conference that were fun. And this just feels like, yeah,

Yeah. But think about the reasons we, we lost Giannis and we lost some a Dame and the bucks get knocked out. Yeah. And maybe now Halliburton. Yeah. And bead Halliburton Cleveland, like might've had a puncher's chance with Mitchell. He misses the last two games of that series. So I think from an injury standpoint, the Celts have been about as lucky as it gets, but this is like an NBA thing where you look at the Lakers in the 1980s where

where all the good teams are in the East, right? You have the Celtics, you have the Sixers, you have Milwaukee, and then you have Detroit and even Atlanta. And then you go to the other side with the West and it's like their two biggest threats in the entire 80s are the Mavericks,

who immediately become disappointing. And Roy Tarpley has a whole cocaine thing and they're a threat for like one playoff series. And then that goes away. Rob knows those teams. But that, that was like the up and coming awesome team. And it just didn't happen. And then the other team was Houston who actually beat them in 86 with Samson Elijah on. And then the next year drug scandal, Samson gets hurt and those guys disappeared too. And the Lakers, uh,

never get tested. This is just kind of how it happens. You look at the West, OKC, Dallas, Denver, Minnesota. Those are four of the five best teams in the league. And they just, for whatever reason, are clustered in the West. Golden State couldn't even get in the playoffs. This is why they need to do this one through 16.

Oh, you're going there? Yeah. What the hell? Like, I mean, like, why not? Man, like, I've got like nine streaming services. I can get a taco delivered to my house. Can we send that to Zasloff? He's trying to match some offers. Zasloff's like, I'll match one for 16. Yeah. 2.6.

I will say, Bill, though, think about how far you had to pull back to find the Western Conference team not being able to prove themselves against quality competition. If we're going back to Roy Tarpley, it illustrates something important, which is

Basically, during my entire lifetime, the Western Conference has been pretty significantly superior to the East. Yeah. And there are there's some systemic reasons for that. There's some trend reasons for that. Part of it, honestly, is LeBron beating the snot out of so many would be teams for so long. They basically dissolved. That's a part of that equation. But I don't know. The West being better than the East is pretty much NBA business as usual. Well, the LeBron thing, the Bulls were the team.

The Bulls were going to be, they were going to be the rival and Rose gets hurt at the beginning of the 2012 playoffs, right as we're headed toward an absolute awesome bloodbath in the Eastern finals. We don't get to see that. The Bulls get basically pulled away. The Celtics get old and it just kind of never happened. And then, you know, for whatever reason, a lot of the talent started coming in on the West side. I think,

I think the East could rally next year because you figure Milwaukee would be better. You figure Philly, once you guys get Paul George and Pascal Siakam, that team's going to be absolutely loaded. They have four all-stars. Orlando's one guy away. Am I on the bench? We'll see what happens with Cleveland, but I do think the East will be in better shape. But it also speaks to the pressure now on this Boston team to just basically hand it this gift horse.

with these three series in a row and even like the Knicks. So I think could have been a little bit bitchy for them. Right. And then, you know, by the time we get to the third quarter of game seven, even Brunson has broken hand. Yeah. So I don't know. We'll take a, we'll take a break. Lots more to cover.

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Max refund $5. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fandu.com. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. From tip-off to hoisting the trophy, celebrate every moment of the WNBA finals with a Michelob Ultra in hand. The WNBA is so hot, we just launched a Ringer WNBA show podcast. Yeah, that's happening. You know what goes well with it? Michelob Ultra.

The taste, super smooth. Low calories and carbs. Why not save on calories if you're drinking a good beer? I like to keep it nice and cold. It's just really good. And you got the WNBA finals, like all kinds of crazy matchups. Might have the two best teams in the league playing in round two.

It's going to be amazing. We'll see how far Kate and Clark goes. You're not going to want to miss a moment. Stock up on Michelob Ultra for the WNBA finals. Michelob Ultra, superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2024 Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Wild Wings Go. Takeout and delivery from Buffalo Wild Wings is now Buffalo Wild Wings Go. And for a limited time, you can get 10 free boneless wings from Buffalo Wild Wings Go.

When you spend $15 and use promo code, go boneless, which by the way, I'm a boneless guy. Sorry. I just love it. You know, some people are like boneless wings, depending on the situation. Some people are hardcore wings. I'm a boneless guy. Makes it easier for boneless too. When you try any of the B-dub sauces, you can just smear them right in there. They have a crazy amount of sauces and dry rubs, which you should know if you've been to Buffalo Wild Wings. There's like 26 of them. My favorites are,

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Or is there one more level to go? Because I still feel like at age 26, I still feel like he's a superstar work in progress. Rob's a little dubious of that. I am too. Yeah. If nothing about his context changes. So if he's still going to play in this like post-Brad team position,

The way Joe Mizzoula has them play with lots of threes. Are you doing the Doris first person thing again? I started to and then I had to switch out because I know that drives you crazy. No, I like it. Joseph Mizzoula. I think that this is who he's going to be if this is the way the Celtics play and this is the way the Celtics roster is made up. Yeah. What do you think, Rob? I think it's reasonable to expect...

subtle but meaningful improvement. Little things on the edges, little things in terms of his mentality or the balance of a team. But at this point in their career...

Most guys kind of are who they are by that age, especially if you've had the opportunities in terms of offensive creation that he's had. It's one thing if you're coming up as a role guy and suddenly you're thrown into a dramatically different context, as Chris is saying, and your whole career transforms. Jason Tatum's been a star for a long time. And to his credit, he's done a lot with it. But I think the reason that the Celtics would eventually get over the hump would not be that he is a dramatically different player.

It's just that they win a couple more games that they otherwise would have lost. Maybe he has a couple fourth quarters that he might not have had in a previous run. But ultimately, I think this is who he is. And that player is really damn good and maybe good enough. He's an excellent one level below the top guys in the league guy who is a streaky three-point shooter. And we saw Game 6 Philly, Game 7 Philly last year. We saw Game 6 Milwaukee the year before last year.

When he's feeling it, it's magical. But it seems like it comes and goes a lot more... Comes and goes frequently than some of the other great players. So I would say the last piece... Do you think that that's a system thing or that's a him thing? You know? Because there's something about... I was watching...

I think it was towards the end of the last Dallas series against the Thunder. And Kyrie had some game where he had like 11 points or something. I can't remember. But when the game's over, all the guys are freaking out about Kyrie and what he did and what you don't see. It's like Kyrie did this and then he said this before the game. I think that Tatum kind of lacks that.

Like nobody's going to go after this game or if Tatum had a bad game, like I don't think Tatum has that like, man, you guys don't understand. Jason galvanized us and he did everything on the court, but score. It kind of feels like it's a little bit more like if he gets his 26 to 30, it's like a normal Jason Tatum night. And if he doesn't, he's he's shit.

You agree with that, Rob? I mean, shit seems strong. No, but that's the way that... Yeah, that's the narrative of it. That's how Boston reacts to stuff. The irony of that is I think Tatum does do a lot of those sorts of things, but doesn't necessarily give the energy or get the credit, narratively speaking, for doing them. Game one was like that. He had a really good defense rebounding game and got no credit for it after. I suspect if you zoom all the way in...

and go into film session kind of mode and diagnose every Celtics play, you will find all sorts of small things that he does, whether it's pull over a superior defender so that Jalen Brown can attack, whether it's the way he rotates on defense to shield other guys and protect them. He's doing all that stuff. It's just guys like Kyrie have a mystique and will always get the respect because of that mystique. And Tatum, for all the reasons we've illuminated, just kind of doesn't have that.

And it changes the way we talk about him, but it doesn't necessarily change what he's offering on the court. I think the guy he is on the court does have a lot of those qualities. Yeah, I'm a Tatum defender. I'm way more glass half full than I think most people. The three-point shooting drives me a little nuts, but it's like those actors...

It's like Robert Duvall. There's not a lot of Robert Duvall conversations, right? Incredible actor, but it's more fun to talk about Pacino and De Niro and Jimmy Conn. Nobody's like, oh man, Duvall. The judge. He was killing it. What are you? We're like, oh man, Duvall. What are you talking about? We are, but most people aren't. It's like, oh, Duvall Pod.

Duvall Hall of Fame. It's just never happening. Please title this episode Jason Tatum colon NBA's Robert Duvall question mark and see if it's the worst or best episode ever. Well, I'll ask you guys this. The Netflix series that they're doing. Yeah. Tatum's one of the guys. That quarterback's version or whatever. LeBron's in it. The series that they were doing. Anthony Edwards is in it.

Who do you think is going to steal the show? Anthony Edwards. Yeah. He already stole one Netflix show. Right. It's just what he does. So Tatum's going to be in it and you'll get to know him better. And by the way, his story is awesome. His mom, her whole background and all the ways that she's just around his life and all the things she does. She's really unique and a really cool lady.

People are going to be like, where's Ant? Can we go back to Ant's house? He's playing video games. Like what's going on with that guy? Ant's decided to take up soccer. Come on, let's go back to Ant. Somebody just challenged Ant in wiffle ball. What? So Indiana, is this a sweep, Rob?

If we, let me say I have no Halliburton. Let's say Halliburton's gone for the series. Is it a sweep? Oh, yes. They're going to get one in Indy. I think there's like a crazy, like, I feel like Boston will blow in an Indy. Like fast break out of no, like just, just absolutely insane. One 31 20 game. You know, it took our guy, Joe Maz, a Luke Cornette injury.

to finally play Brissette in a series against his old team when he's the perfect bench guy to come in and switch on defense and just play with energy and be around the rim. Like, it's like, gee, I wish we had somebody on that team. Oh, wait, we do. It's Brissette. He never plays. I'm on more text change over the last seven months. Probably the most random sentence ever.

in all my texts over the last eight months is, hey, why doesn't he play Brissette more? Just going both ways. People texting me that, me texting other people. So finally Brissette played. And I think he was like plus 17 in 10 minutes at one point. I feel like Boston will blow an indie game. The fact that you're just, their history will be just to kind of

not take a half seriously and all of a sudden they're down 15. I think that's very possible. But what they've shown in this series and all their series so far is that they win most of those games anyway. Sometimes they will blow one, but without Halliburton, I just don't know. I do think this game, look, the Pacers are not a heavyweight opponent in the current form for a team like the Celtics. They're just not really on that level in terms of talent. But a game like this one and walling off, you know, the kind of points in the paint thing I mentioned earlier, you know,

getting back in transition, like playing Indiana is a test of your discipline as a team. Can you do this for 48? Can you sprint back for 48 minutes, put a wall in front of these guys, make them dance around side to side and prevent them from getting to the rim? The fact that they can do that and they just showed it even in a game where they're honestly not playing great.

It doesn't hearten my opinion of Indiana's chances. I just don't feel good about where the Pacers are right now, despite the fact that they nearly stole game one, despite the fact that Pascal Siakam almost stole this one before things kind of went sideways on them. Yeah, I thought... Honestly, I'm just going to try and avoid Indiana's style... Enjoy Indiana's style of play. Because Boston, animus aside, that's a very...

Animus aside. That's a good name for a podcast. Animus aside. Animus aside. Or a punk band. One of the two. It's basically people who hate something being like, I'll give them this. Here's your flowers, but I hate you. Yeah. It's like Indiana just plays a style of basketball that I find refreshing. You know, ripping it out on a make, flying up the court,

taking these little mid-range twos when they have them rather than always kicking out. I just find it really enjoyable. That's going to basically be your takeaway from the Indiana. It's like, basically, thanks for playing and that was entertaining. The Boston thing, it's like, it'll probably be like five. I mean, I think Indiana will get one in Indy. But this is the story of the Celtics, isn't it? It's like the other team has a fun style of play. The other stars glimmer in a way that Jason Tatum might not.

But if they win, no one can take that away from you. Like that stuff doesn't matter. If you win. Celtics have played 106 playoff games with Tatum and Brown. So there's just a familiarity. It's there a little bit of a no win. I would argue when they have Porzingis, this is a really fun team to watch. Like I really enjoyed watching them when they had everybody and Holiday and White are just an absolute delight. I mean, they're,

They're like almost like they could have been great 2004 Patriots. I'm a big Drew Holiday fan. Those guys are just winning players. And the fact that the Bucs fans were like, oh yeah, good luck. Wait till playoff Drew shows up.

And it's like, you mean playoff drew the guy that won a title for you and threw one of the great alley-oops of the history of the league? That guy? Yeah, we'll take him. That sounds great. Rob, you talked about Luka on the Ringer NBA show on group chat. Yeah. An excellent program last night. Luka took over in the fourth quarter. I asked, Isaiah Thomas is coming on later. I asked him this question, but I'm going to ask both of you the same question. Does Minnesota have anybody to guard Luka Doncic? Quietly kind of no.

Despite the fact that they have some of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA and some of the best interior defenders in the NBA, but...

I think we saw kind of what the shape of that matchup is going to be, which is Jaden McDaniels has incredible length and is going to make Luka shoot over the top of him. But every time Luka just wanted to bump him off and get into a little rock back jumper, he can get that anytime he wants. And he's great at that shot. And if you can't take that away from him, I think you're going to be in a really tough spot. But maybe it ultimately comes down to that. Maybe Minnesota's defense by the end of the series is not...

Putting two on the ball with Luka is not letting Gafford and Lively beat them inside is also, you know, they're doing a good job taking away the corner threes in particular, and they're going to live with that stuff with Luka. But I wouldn't feel great about trying to live with that. He's too good at those shots. Yeah. If you're talking generational defenses and some of the great ones, CR, like the Bulls could have thrown Pippen on him. The Pistons absolutely could have thrown Rodman on him. The other Pistons could have thrown Tayshaun Prince on him.

And Minnesota, which I think has a chance to at least swim in that swimming pool. But it's weird. They don't have the Luca guy, which means they also don't have the guy to guard 2012-13 LeBron. Right. If that's the same thing, like the big six foot eight physical guy who can shoot over a pew. But I mean, this is if you're talking greatest defenses ever, like the other defenses had guys to handle the six eight freak guy.

And we'll see if Minnesota does. I didn't see it last night. I'll say this. If I was a Minnesota fan, I would be feeling okay about that game because you're talking about a team who just came out of a seven-game series against the defending champs. I couldn't agree more. They went on the road in Denver and have to go home. They've basically been fetid for the last 48 hours. Everybody's just like, I can't believe it. This happened. These guys are here.

Right. This is the greatest win in the history of the Minnesota franchise. Yeah. And they catch a Dallas night on a night where Luca decides to just play and not go on tilt. And like, I felt like relatively speaking, I saw Luca hit the deck a few times. He's bleeding from his knees, getting shoved around a little bit. And he actually like kept playing and played some defense too. And I was like, that's it. That's about his

I don't know, that's about as close as you can get to being a perfect Luka game. And they were within touching distance of Dallas. So if I was Minnesota, I'd be like, we'll catch our breath. The calls are not always going to be exactly the same like they were. And I think that more often than not, Luka gets distracted by his own temper in those games where there's a lot of physical contact. Raheem had some... Raheem, I can't find it, but Raheem had some good stats about...

the team coming off the brutal seven game series and then having to play two nights later in the next series. And there it's like, basically they're batting 40%. Yeah. If I'm Minnesota, the Nas read alley or not. Oh, you put back dunk, which is may or may not have been above the rim, but it felt like that was a basket. It's a tie game. I'm sorry. Cat. Yeah. Uh,

They would have been tie game 70 seconds left. And it felt like when they didn't get that, I was like, Oh, um, but they didn't execute it all down the stretch. They're going to play better offensively. The next game Edwards was dead.

Luka hit five fucking crazy shots in the fourth quarter. I'm with you, CR. I'm okay if I'm Minnesota. I'm like, we got it. We'll win. They split this. I think this is going to go seven. I think this is going to be a long series. And as much as we were like, the Denver Wolves series is the title. This is going to be some of the best basketball we see in the playoffs. I can't wait for the rest of the series. It feels like a long one. But I will say the thing about, even as you were laying it out, Chris,

you know, Luca's temperament and his, his ability to control the game and the shots he was getting to. And yes, those were tough shots, but all of that and all of really the game down the stretch and a lot of the game in the body of it felt like it was within Luca's power to control. And that's kind of what would worry me if I'm the wolves is that aunt is still very much figuring out this matchup. And look, there's a lot of whiplash stylistically between how Dallas and Denver play on both sides of the ball. Um,

But Luca felt like he had this thing dialed in and it felt like he knew all the levers to pull, all the buttons to push, and

I think that's going to be the case. And Ant is going to be kind of feeling around in the dark in the way that young stars do sometimes. Yeah, and that was actually, Rob, I can't remember if it's the last time we all potted together or when we talked about this, but with that Thunder series with the Mavericks, I was like, I don't really know if this is that close. Like, Dallas almost won that in five other than the brain fart that they had in the second half giving up that huge lead, right, to the Thunder. I felt like Kyrie and Luka were like, we got this.

And I feel like that that is like something that will emerge over the next couple of games where it's just like, damn, how good is this backcourt? I mean, you guys are talking about a group chat like this is definitely the best backcourt in league. These guys might just be in the zone where they are like, we cannot really be beaten if we do our jobs and the role players do their jobs. So I honestly feel like this is a coin toss. Yeah, when I that game five of the Clipper series I went to,

And I left that series. And I think I said it to you, Rob, the next time we potted where I was like, uh, I thought the series was a wrap. I thought the Mavs had figured them out. And really since the middle of that series, they kind of settled into the team they are. And part of it is because Derek Jones has really turned into, you know, they're even the rotation stuff has figured out Derek Jones and PJ Washington together. Um, I still feel like Minnesota is going to win this series. Um,

but I would not bet on it. Because the thing that worries me is the Kyrie matchup. Luka, nobody can guard Luka, right? He's going to get his points. I don't really feel like there's... It's like, oh, it's too bad they don't have that guy who can guard Luka. But the Kyrie matchup is a more interesting kind of bad matchup for them because I don't think Conley can stay with him. Oh, no. So they're going to have to use...

I think they're going to eventually have to end up using McDaniels and wasting the McDaniels card on Kyrie to try to take him out and then give Luca, hey, if you're going to get 40 a game, we're just going to have to give it to you and just put a variety of dudes on Luca and take out Kyrie. That's what I would do if I, you know, take out Kyrie, make sure the roll guys don't beat you. And if Luca is going to get 40 to 45 a game, so be it. But you can't have both of them go.

So you got to take Kyrie out. There's also the version of this series where Alexander Walker starts playing more just for that defensive matchup reason. The problem is like his offense has not been in there lately. He can't shoot. And right now with the way Minnesota is trying to attack, it's a lot of guys like him

and Jaden McDaniels, and even sometimes Cat, all kind of their secondary and tertiary guys attacking off the dribble in the paint with lots of bodies all swiping at them from the Mavs. And they're losing the ball. They're not able to kind of be stable and strong going to the basket in those situations. And that's where you get into a lot of trouble when you have role players on the floor who can't quite shoot and can't quite be decisive when they try to drive. I don't know what they could do with that, but they only have so many options in terms of who else they could play. It's either you're pulling the Nas Reids

It's either Nas Reid's music or Nikhil Alexander Walker's music because I don't really trust the Kyle Anderson minutes right now. They feel more than a little precarious to me. Do you disagree with Draymond that Kyle Anderson should not start over Gobert? Was that Draymond's take? That was floated, yeah. He set that out there. Incredibly neutral perspective as always from Draymond. Just why? I appreciate his perspective on these matters. One thing that was really cool about that game

Both teams really already felt like they knew the other team. Like even you watch the way they're defending the lobs and stuff like that, like Dallas had that great play at the end of the game when Conley tried to throw that lob to go bear and Dallas just read it and they jumped it and they tipped it away. But watching the team slowly take away the things the other team likes to do, and then it's just going to end up with individual excellence at some point during the series. And that's really favors Dallas.

The reason I think Minnesota still, and that I'm not shaken by game one, is I just don't think home court's going to matter in this series. Right. Well, it certainly doesn't seem to matter to Minnesota. Well, the bigger question to me is, does home court matter anymore? Yeah. Rob, what's your theory on this, Rob? What happened to home court? I don't know other than, obviously, the overriding factor right now is the NBA is in such a state of parity. Yeah.

that what seems like home court, even from a one or two seed versus a six seed or so, just isn't that big of a difference. And so when we're thinking about quote unquote favorites in series, the lines are kind of thinner than they usually are than maybe they've ever been before. Plus the three point shooting. There's like more variance. Yeah, I bet. I'm sure even like the quality of travel too is just like at the all time high. And those guys are not like uncomfortable when they're going places. I don't know. I mean, I think that there's,

There's something to it. The recovery stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, that's a big part of it. Sleep science, recovery, diet consistency, everything.

Players now are professionalized in a way that they really haven't been in NBA history for decades. And so all these things coming together at a time where there's just better parity and better balance in the league, in part because of the collective bargaining agreement and the way the apron is functioning right now, I think it's just putting us in a place where anybody can lose any game, no matter where you're playing. You know what I blame, CR? What's that?

Everyone's too nice. We got to go back to the days when fans were unruly. Wow. Yeah, well, you know what? Have a look in the mirror there, Billy Kosigan. Because your fans are kind of sitting on their hands a little bit. I heard some defense kids. Well, we don't know. But I can't be sure that those weren't being pumped in by ESPN to make it seem like Boston had a good atmosphere. Our fans are afraid to yell. We don't want to offend the other team and potentially get thrown out in this new NBA world. Why could that be in Boston? I have no idea.

The old days of people sitting behind the Celtics bench just riding the players for four quarters like it's gone. Now it's just, you know, I was thinking back to the 80s.

It was so hard to go into somebody else's building and win a big game. Like if you did that, it was like when the Sixers beat the Celtics in 82, gave seven. It was like, holy shit. They came into the garden. Like the Lakers beating the Celtics in 85 or pick a time. Like the Bulls going to beat the Lakers in 91 when they're winning games in their house. It's like, oh my God. And now it's like, I honestly, they might as well start playing these games in neutral stadiums.

You play like the finals in Vegas. Like it's the fucking in-season tournament. I don't want that, but it does. I mean, I, I feel like anecdotally, this is kind of like what the hockey playoffs are like, where it'll, it'll just be kind of like, Oh, they won two. And then this other team won three, including two on the road. And now it's this heavyweight slug fest. I think for the Western conference too. Also, there's something incredible in the water where almost everywhere you look,

Some team is probably like, are we dreaming? Is this happening? If you're Minnesota, you have an ownership conflict. You have a bunch of guys on that team that people had written off like go barren towns to some extent. At least to be like, this is who you are in this league. This is how far you'll go. And now they've got this guy and a coach in Finch who are pushing them beyond the limits of what they thought was going to be their careers, honestly. And

To some extent, I think that's happening in Dallas too. Dallas is like Kyrie is having a full-on career revival. Luka is actually doing it.

And then they were surrounded by guys like Gafford and PJ Washington and Derek Lively. Every time now I'm about to just call somebody by their first name and jump in my head. Derek Lively, like this assemblage of talent is not like watching like, okay, it's another Clippers series. Let's see. Right. Let's see what happens. You know, like it's just like, no, there's like nothing's written here for this Western Conference playoff series. No.

Every team is mega talented and also the no one believes in us team at the same time. Yes. Right. But this was the, there was a stretch in the nineties when the league was really deep when, you know, like Houston won a game seven on Phoenix's floor and, and,

Yeah, like Indiana's going into MSG trying to steal a series with Knicks, and they finally did it in 95. I forget, what was the game? Oh, it was the Ray Allen game where the Spurs brought the champagne out, right? Or the ropes. Yeah, the ropes came out. Yeah, when the Spurs... I remember in the 81 playoffs when the Celtics came back against the Sixers in game six, down 3-2. Sorry, Chris. I was four. Yeah.

We had lost 11 straight in the spectrum and it felt like 58. Like it just felt like winning in the spectrum seemed like this incredible, impossible feat that was never going to happen. And then when we won game six, it was like, oh my God, we won in the spectrum. And it was the same thing when the Bruins would play the Canadians when I was a kid. In Montreal, it just seemed like insurmountable. I don't know if there's a basketball building like that. Like the Knicks fans would say MSG.

But, you know, an MSG is an unbelievable atmosphere. It's so much fun. But I don't think teams are like, I'm so psyched out playing. This is my biggest mistake pick in Indiana in game seven, like just to bet on. It's like, oh, the MSG crowd is going to psych them out. I don't know if teams get psyched out. I think MSG has that effect. I think that there are probably there's like a handful of really good arenas in the NBA still. But I do think that the flattening

And the sameness of all these, all these like moderate arenas has made it so that there really isn't. Oh yeah. You don't walk in and you're like, oh, it's so damp in here. Like, you know, like, I don't know. Like it doesn't feel like anything's ever just like, like something weird happened in this arena. It's like, no, everybody's having the same chicken tenders. And like, it's, it's pretty much the same experience no matter where you go. The lighting is. At a Celtics game 45 years ago, Doug McRae and Jim were sitting in like row two. Yeah.

Screaming at Jake O'Donnell. Hey, Jake, you think you're better than us?

And Jake's terrified, starting to call charges. There goes Colin Saka! We are on the cusp of some truly revolutionary takes here. We're at like, you know, the tasteless nature of modern architecture. Bill, you are a half step away from not just the fans being soft, but like Gen Z fans being soft. Maybe we need more drinking. We need more binge drinking. That's why I'm having a beer now. I want them to seat at 1 through 16, Rob, and then they have to go play it online.

soccer stadiums in Buenos Aires. I need to get atmosphere back in the NBA. If no batteries are thrown at your game, it's not real. It doesn't count. So I would lean 51% Minnesota, 49% Dallas. I would not bet on it. I would bet on this series going at least six and probably seven. Do you have a lean, Rob, or do you want to see more basketball? I mean, of course I want to see more basketball. Do you want to see more of the matchup before you have a lean? My lean going in was Minnesota in seven.

And I will say I budged slightly on that. Obviously, Dallas won, so the math changes a little bit. I still think the Wolves are going to get well back into this series. It's just going to be a matter of whether they have enough and enough answers. And I think...

I'll say this. I can see them falling short a little bit more easily now having seen the first game of it and seeing like what is available for Dallas when all their stuff... Actually, I was going to say when all their stuff is hitting, but honestly, it wasn't. Their threes weren't hitting really at all. And the fact that they won a variance game that swung in Minnesota's way in so many directions...

I think puts them in a really good spot. I still would lean Minnesota slightly, but I love Dallas' position in this series. Dallas keeps winning dumb games, which at some point that becomes a skill, right? In these close, tight games, they keep pulling them out. What do you have, CR, if you had to do percentages? I'm leaning Dallas, like 52-48, yeah. I wonder what the league wants if you'd like...

Gabe Adams sober truth serum. What if it's rigged? No, like putting the thumb on the scale these days. Deep down, what does he want? Well, DFW is like a bigger market, I guess, if that's what we're basing it off of. But the Ant thing is pretty irrepressible at this point, right? I'm excited. The Ant backlash is already starting, Rob. I just can't wait for Kyrie to be back in the garden. Speaking of atmosphere. Like, I think that that would be incredible. Yeah.

Has the ant backlash really picked up? It still feels like he's... Where was their ant backlash? What part of the internet are you on? Oh, I'm on the Celtics. Why is everybody against Tatum? Ah, they're part of the internet. You might as well be on QAnon then. Nobody is responding to ant. Ant went six foot 24 and they didn't say jack shit about him. That's what side I'm on. Cleveland fired JB Bickerstaff. So we're up to four coaches who were job preservation fired by the GM.

Who's like, hey, don't look this way.

Kobe Altman? About to be five, probably, right? Who's the fifth? Well, I guess technically, because if Monte Williams gets fired by the new layered in... Trajan Langdon got hired to be the president of the Pistons. Oh, yeah, yeah. And they might fire. Yeah, Jalen used to have that joke when we all worked together about the keep getting them checks. Right. Monte would be the all-timer, right? Just completely fucks up the Pistons for a year and gets $80 billion. It's like a sunk cost. Listen,

The GM is with the owners. I make this point. I'm going to make it again. The GM's with the owners and the people that run the team way more than the coaches are. And when things go wrong and the owner's like, Hey, what the fuck? We traded five first rounders for Donovan Mitchell and marketing who made an all-star team. Why aren't we better? The easiest thing to do is be like, I don't know, man, this coach, what, what is he doing? And you're just buck passing, buck passing, buck passing.

The bottom line is maybe Cleveland should be cleaning house, period. And, you know, I just feel like... Yeah, but they can't clean out the part of the house that's probably the most detrimental, which is Gilbert. You know, and Gilbert's probably like reading Ishbia headlines and being like, I'll get... I can fire a guy. Well, there was stuff today about how Mitchell...

It's like leaning toward maybe signing the extension. So this might be the Ryan Rosselló theory of he signs the extension and asks for a trade a year from now. But we already know from all the reporting that Garland, his representation, same as CR, he's represented by Clutch, that they might push for a Garland trade. And it does feel like Cleveland's going to be the big pivot team for some trades this year. They might have a Jared Allen trade and a Darius Garland trade

in the next like five weeks. And I don't know what those guys would fetch, but it's not going to be an insignificant amount. If your team like the Spurs and Garland's on the table, I'm like, fucking let's go. Let's start...

trading idea. Rob, am I right? Isn't Garland the ideal Wemba Nyama guy? I love that fit for Darius Garland. Sick. So good. It would be such a great pairing. And that's honestly what's so weird. I'll say unusual about the JB Picker staff firing. Not that coaches don't get fired in this situation, but usually they get canned because you don't want to change the roster or you can't change the roster, that your hands are kind of tied behind your back as far as what you can do with trades or free agency.

The Cavs feel very much like a team, like you're saying, that is poised to make significant deals to change the entire shape of their roster. And yet, I guess they just want someone completely different to kind of envision how to use all those parts. But that's not usually what we see out there.

Well, Chris, we knew we had a feeling when the Cavs got eliminated and eight minutes later, there was a 55, 100 word story in the athletic. Yeah. But about all the terrible things in the J.B. Becker staff fair. So I can't say I was shocked. The weird thing is that the, uh, coaching carousel and the coaching talent pool seems to be, uh,

I wouldn't say at an all-time low because I think there's some good coaches available, but you wouldn't be like, hey, fire our guy for this dude. Right. It's not like... I mean, honestly, it wouldn't be surprising, I guess, if Vogel gets one of these jobs or something like that because of his past success with the Pacers and the Magic, and also winning a title. But I think maybe Vogel is better suited to coaching...

you know, like a, a kind of like mid table team like that, then he is like maybe going back in again with another star laden team. I feel like 25 of these guys are right around each other. Right. Yeah. But like, I, I,

This just doesn't seem like a draft class of coaches that you'd be like, hey, I'll go on the hook for several million. I mean, Tom Gores, if he fires Monty Williams, he's going to owe him $60 million. That's a crazy bill to foot for who? Who are you bringing in that you think is going to revolutionize your culture in a way that Monty Williams couldn't? I get it. I get that it seemed crazy and that he wasn't playing Jaden Ivey and stuff like that.

that there were problems, but that's a steep bill to pay. Well, there's no proven coaches in the market. The proven guys are James Borrego and Kenny Atkinson. Perfectly decent NBA head coaches with mixed records.

And if you're not batting for them, then you're getting, you know, the lead assistant off somebody's bench. Then you're going for Sam Cassell. And those are not the kinds of names that you envision as revolutionizing your franchise, even though they're perfectly good coaches. But I mean, money is money and there's only 30 of those jobs or whatever. So I understand why people do it. But like if I was Mike Inori, I would be like, so I can be like the lead assistant of Minnesota. Yeah. Or I can get fired in 18 months in Detroit.

I'll stay in Minnesota. You know what I really miss? The big inefficiency right now with all this is, you know, in the 80s and 90s, teams would splurge on college coaches. And they'd be like, we've hired Lon Krueger.

You missed this? We've given Lon Kruger $12 million. You missed Rick Pitino? That's what we're missing? No, but I miss these college coaches coming in and just being terrible. It was always really fun. It's like, here comes PJ Carlissimo. Oh my God, he's being strangled by one of his own players. It would be fun if Andy Enfield was just hired by an NBA team. Why not? We had Calipari. We had Pitino. There was...

Now, now it's like, it's just ring around the Rosie with these NBA assistants. So like the Lakers, let's say JJ is not the guy, even though we all know they're hiring JJ. Um, they go from Vogel to Darvin Ham and then James Borrego. Like is there, so they're going to be still paying Vogel and still paying Darvin Ham. Yes. But then also getting Borrego.

who's kind of in the same level as those other guys. Did they figure out the Ty Lue extension, the Clippers? Yeah, we got to bring him back. He lost in round one in six games. NBA players are like, this dude is a genius. This guy's a genius. He's never made the finals with the Clippers. Well, he's not an orthopedic surgeon. He can't keep that team healthy.

He can only just... I don't know. He wasn't knocking my socks off in that Mavs series. I wasn't like, whoa, Ty Lue. No. But is it more important... Look at all the moves he's making. Is it more important as a coach to be a genius or for your players to think you're a genius? Do his players think he's a genius? Because they kind of rolled over in the last two Clipper games. I don't really put that at Ty Lue's feet personally, but you can. My bigger point is there's probably like four coaches that matter as...

And I think everybody else like Bogle won a title four years ago. He said two jobs since, you know, it's just,

Like, I think Carlisle is a good coach, but Carlisle was also awful in Dallas for, you know, years and years. We're like, when are they going to fire this guy? I think he lost his basketball. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And it seemed like he wore out his welcome. How many, Rob, how many like really good coaches are there? Is it less than six? I would say less than six that are significantly moving the needle for you. And honestly, at the bottom end, there's probably only two or three in the league at a given time that are actually that bad.

And most fan bases are just so dialed in on exactly what their coach is doing wrong or not doing that it gets a little stretched out of proportion. But I don't know. I don't see a lot of needle movers out there. Even if your coach is great at challenges, I mean, congrats. That's a couple possessions to swing a game. It's not an insignificant thing. But it's not really changing who you are as a team.

Those guys, I mean, those guys are what, like Spoh is clearly in that group. Who else do we feel super confident is a dramatic, like a transformational coach? I mean, is it Finch or is it Anthony Edwards? Why is Minnesota where they are? I mean, they definitely has the demeanor that I think the team takes on. There's a calmness to him.

Right. I think Kidd's done a really good job the last couple rounds. And I was never a huge fan of his. But Kidd was getting killed before, like at previous stops, right? Right. And even like this year, he was getting killed. If you talk to any Mavericks fan in like February, they were flipping out about him. But, you know, it's a relationships business. And the fact that he has Kyrie...

This version of Kyrie, he gets some credit for that, right? You could say Kyrie got older and Kyrie's mature and Kyrie's in the right situation. And I think that the GM for Dallas apparently like knew PJ Washington for a really long time and was like, I know that this kid has like another gear in him. He's just been in a bad team and in a bad situation. Yeah. I think we're honestly at the point now where I would almost welcome in an era of coach trades. Yeah.

Because there's a bunch of guys who I think are good coaches or interesting coaches who are coaching the wrong team. Who comes to mind for you? Well, I would love to see Popovich coaching a team of guys who are Olympic-level basketball players. Just to see, has he lost his fastball or is he just wasting the last few years of his career coaching guys who are like...

you know, obviously, Wemby, but not great players, right? Or at least not yet. Well, I believe he did give up the chance to literally coach a team of Olympic-level basketball players this summer, right? Didn't he give up that spot to Kerr to coach Team USA? Yeah, but I would like to, like...

I don't think they wanted him in France. There's just too much wine. I don't know if they trusted him. He's going to go off the wagon. I would like to see what would happen if Popovich coached the Lakers. I know that that would be like Darth Vader coaching, you know, like for the force or whatever. But like, I just would like to see what would he do with LeBron and AD, you know? And then the same thing goes for like Quinn Snyder. I think his talents are kind of wasted in Atlanta. I think it would be cool to see him like coaching a different team.

Yeah. Like Tibbs did a good job in New York, but at the same time, the entire team got injured by the end of it, as we were all joking about, man, that's a lot of minutes on these guys. And then now some of it is like Brunson breaks his hand. Like that's a fluke, but right. Yeah. You know, OG and Roby playing 41 minutes a game and then getting hurt, I think was pretty easy to predict. He's not Cal Ripken. Um, any thoughts on, any thoughts on, uh, any of the announcing stuff before we go?

Did you like having five guys on a halftime show that's two and a half minutes long? Do you like Chris Paul? I thought Chris Paul was good. I wish he had been on a show that didn't have five people on it. That seemed like a pretty, like a no brainer, like not, not shocked that Chris Paul is just like pretty good at being on TV and talking about hoops. Yeah. I'm dumbfounded that they added Draymond to like, everybody's like inside the NBA. It's the best show ever.

Why are we adding people to it? Like for just take Draymond out of it. Why are we adding any fifth human being to a show that we all loved already? What made them, this is what I don't understand with networks. Like why can't they just stay out of their own way?

You know, like if you decide Chris Paul is, is, needs to be on countdown, then take one of the other people out and have a four person thing. So you can have an actual conversation. But how could you choose? How could you choose? Well, I guess that would be impossible, but these over and over again, they just can't help themselves. They just have to add stuff. They have to change stuff. They have to overthink it. And, you know, meanwhile, somebody like Tim Legler, what did he do? One playoff game.

And he was awesome. He's always like, yeah, let's get rid of him. No more playoff games for legs. It's like, wow, that he just told me more in that game than I've heard all year. So you're seeing the sequel shows have a sequel-itis problem. They're just overstuffing. There's too much going on. It has to be bigger. It has to be a bigger cast every time. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. It's, you know, having had some experience being in this,

I don't think these guys can, you can't just run it back. It can't be like, well, what are you doing this year? You know what? It's not broke. Don't fix it. Right. You have to have like a way. I'm like, oh, here's our idea this year. We're going to do this. So we're going to this, this year we're going to, it's like, yeah, maybe not. Well, especially with Draymond. Like if, if there's any risk of this being the swan song for inside the NBA,

And we're shoehorning. It is. Well, I mean, look, there's contingencies being discussed out there as far as like, no, there's going to go to another network, but it won't be with Draymond. That's all well and good. I'm pro inside continuing. But if this is the end of this era, I want to see those guys go out on their own terms, not with extra characters shoot in for the final season, just to like shake things up and make them interesting, especially when Draymond, a phenomenal basketball player with incredible insights to share if he wanted to share them

is choosing not to do that and just grinding axes every broadcast. Right, he's just doing grudges. It'd be like the last year of The Sopranos. We've decided to add Draymond Green. It's like, wait, what?

Can we just find out what happened with Tony and Carmella? I mean, I think also just like, I hope that whatever iteration we get of Inside the NBA next on whatever network it's on, that they let those guys stretch out the way that they do. And yeah, like the Draymond Park is- That won't be on ESPN, I'll tell you that much. Right, and I think that- Because they don't have this space. But to make the devil's advocate argument for ESPN, I think that they're not really trying to win the halftime show or pregame show experience. They're trying to win viral clips. So that's-

That's why they have Woj come out and be like, here's all the news you need to know. And then they share that. And here's Stephen A ranting about something and they share that. And then, you know, like that's like what they're, I don't think that they're trying to blow our minds with some incredible panel talk. Yeah. That's why we have podcasts like this one. Yeah. Like this very special time we've all spent together. Where you can hear about how Boston, the Boston fans have become too woke. Yeah.

Nobody said that. Participation trophy culture is ruining the NBA. Yeah, Bob Duvall. Overrated, underrated, or properly rated. Bob Duvall. Well, right now for the NBA, we have for the Eastern Finals, the Celtics are now...

Jesus. It just says minus 1-0-0-0-0 on FanDuel. They must have gotten a... That's a lot. It's an inside dope on Halliburton's left leg. Yeah, the medicals came back. Can I give you the Eastern Conference MVP odds right now? Do it. Who do you think's favored? Jalen. O'Shea Brissett. I don't see him. Jalen Brown, minus 125 on FanDuel. Jason Tatum, plus 115. Yeah.

on FanDuel. And then in the Western Conference, Dallas is minus 154. And for a conference MVP, Luka is now minus 130. You could add Luka before the series at plus 165. Interesting. So one game that flipped. That's the old quarterback bet. Like if you bet the Super Bowl

Just bet like Mahomes because he's probably winning the MVP. Same thing with Luka. Like his odds were slightly better than the... You know, I know you were teasing me earlier about Paul George. Yeah. But I do want to actually ask you guys because this has been such an educational playoffs watching...

Teams that are, you know, I mean, Minnesota, you can make an argument about which the, you know, I think it's Ant and Cat and then it's this supporting cast, but one of whom happens to make like $45 million a year in Rudy Colbert. And Denver obviously has like a big two of Jokic and Murray, but then they have this like excellent supporting cast, like across the board, Doncic and Kyrie, and then an incredible supporting cast.

And so as we start talking about like, oh, this guy might be available and Donovan Mitchell might be available and Paul George and everything. Yeah. I wonder whether or not like there will be any trickle down effect from the success of certain teams in the playoffs this year of people being like, I think actually what we would like to do is go seven deep with guys who know their role around their two stars. And the happiest I was as a Sixers fan this year is when

I felt like there was that kind of balance on the team before Embiid got hurt. Yeah. Where it was like Maxie and Embiid were the clear one and two. Which time? I thought you already got your one free swing. He said when Embiid got hurt. I was just, I just wanted more clarification. I'm talking about the changing paradigm of NBA team building. You know? Oh, sorry. Okay. You got to make it regional. Anyway, I was just thinking, I was just wondering out loud, like, oh, I wonder whether or not anybody's going to look at Dallas and be like, huh.

Like, where's my Gafford? Rather than, okay, let's bring in another guy and another guy who are going to, you know, and we're gonna have to find the chemistry and find all this. Wouldn't you say it's different if you have Luca or you have Wimbinyama or if you have Jokic?

You really only need one other major guy and then some awesome role players, I would say. Because it's like the major guys almost were two guys, right, Rob? You do need to be sure that whoever your best player is, and I think Joel Embiid is clearly one of these guys, is a truly, truly elite player. Like an immutable force in a potential series. Of course, their efficiency is going to go up and down, but they change the matchups by being on the floor. And so they have to be really good. Obviously, when your second guy is a shot creator like Kyrie, that

that changes a lot. Yeah. But what you do below them, I think it can get tricky and almost we want to have it both ways sometimes where these teams that do the three-star model, yeah, you get burned if you have Bradley Beal as your third star. That's clearly not good enough just to support a bunch of minimum contracts filling out the rest of the roster. I think Paul George is significantly better than that if you're talking about a third or however you want to classify the pecking order of what would be in Philadelphia. And at the same time, the other outlets...

are the other avenues for building teams have their pitfalls too. If you may think you're seven deep, but then you get in the playoffs and you're only actually five deep and all of your best laid plans go to shit because two role players couldn't quite be as good as you thought they were. So Michael Malone didn't get the email about playing like the young kids in the playoffs. Yeah, right, right.

So yeah, those things are all like, I think there's so many ways for NBA teams to go wrong and we always want to diagnose them and you want to give yourself as many outs as you can. But realistically, if you can get three star level players, I still think that's a really good model. If I'm Paul George, I could just stay in LA, make a ton of money. I'm from LA. You know, I wouldn't say there's a shitload of pressure on the Clipper players out here, right? Nice weather every day and I have an awesome house. Or I could move to Philadelphia. Yeah.

With one of the most psychotic fan bases that exists. Keep going. Where the moment anything goes wrong, it's my fucking fault. I'm the new Tobias Harris. That's called pressure makes, breaks, I'm living in Philadelphia, which I'm pretty sure there's no ocean. Like just to have a nice, two hours away. Uh, and,

The only reason I'd leave the Clippers is it's like, I'm tired of this Kawhi rollercoaster, not knowing if this guy's going to play. I'm going to sign up for Joel Embiid because that's going to be a much more stable game, game after game, month after month relationship. With respect to you and Kawhi Leonard, like I think Joel Embiid's relationship to the Sixers and the Sixers fans is much different than Kawhi Leonard's relationship to the Clippers fans. I'm talking about him being on the court. Yes. CR. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So if I'm leaving Kawhi, I want to go to a team where I know... I wish Embiid maybe had a little bit more Kawhi. I wish he took more nights off and was more like, hey, the knee's a little gamey. I'm going to let it rest. That's fair. Well, let me ask you this after these playoffs. Who is that star that you're positive will be on the court?

Because everybody else is dropping like flies. But there have been major injuries for so many teams. Those guys fucking play. Nobody mentions that as like a strength. Yeah. Super durable. Knock on wood. Yokeage, same thing. Luka, even though he gimps around sometimes, he's still fucking out there every time. Here's the solution for all of us with Paul George. A double sign and trade with the Lakers.

Turn the, turn the camera on Kyle, double sign and trade. LeBron gets to stay in LA, but he goes to the Clippers to open the new stadium, finish his career there. Um, Paul George gets to finally play with the Lakers after it was blocked by Adam Silver a couple of years ago. And finally he gets to be a Laker and he gets to be him and AD and JJ Redick.

And we're off. It's a new era for the Lakers. Do you think J.J. Redick, was that conditional that they get rid of LeBron so that there's no conflict of interest with the podcast? No, I'm just saying it's a new post-LeBron era with Paul George, A.D. I couldn't possibly start a TV show made by Andy Greenwald. It would complicate our podcasting relationship. No, I just like that. I like the narrative of that. LeBron and the Clippers, Bombers, like, this is great. I have LeBron James to help open my new arena. We'll see if he can get

There's got to be some milestone left he can break in the, what's it called? The Intuit Dome?

The Inglewood? Yeah, I think it's the Intuit Dome. I went to Pearl Jam last night, and I'll tell you, the ride wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I'm now excited for the Clippers season. It was a Wednesday night, and I think it was at like, wasn't that at like 8 or 9 o'clock? Yeah, we left at like, I don't know, 6.30 range after the first half of the Minnesota game. Not a bad ride. My one trip to that area for a soccer match last summer was one of the most hellish experiences

driving experiences I've ever had. You know what? I think Stevie Balls figured it out with the parking and the traffic. Well, now you're trying to train LeBron there. Steve Balls has our back. The traffic's going to get worse when LeBron is a clipper, apparently. Rob Mahoney, thank you. Chris Ryan, the Robert Duvall of this podcast. Now and forever. Thank you so much. And we're going to take a break, come back with Hall of Famer Isaiah Thomas.

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All right. I really want to have Isaiah Thomas on the hall of famer, my nemesis from the eighties. And then we made up way later in life and we did a documentary together and, uh,

Now there's this anti eighties. Oh my God, these guys couldn't play now. And I'm telling you, Isaiah Thomas would have been awesome now, but I've been thinking about you with some of the storylines, Isaiah, where first of all, there was a greatest defense ever storyline was in there. And then watching Kyrie rejuvenated, especially in game one, where, I mean, is there anybody else you felt like offensively was on your level as like a six, two and under guy?

as a scorer slash playmaker other than Kyrie? Not with the, I would say, the layup package in terms of being able to get to the basket, finish around the rim, and then the way he handles the basketball. So I remember talking to Coach K when he was recruiting Kyrie, and he called me up and he said,

this is you all over again. And I remember when Kyrie first came out and I was down at FIU and he actually came by one of my practices and visited me and he worked out with some of the guys and, you know, I had seen him on television, but I had never really seen it up close in person. My mouth was, all I could do was just,

sit there, watch, mouth open, and be in awe of what I was seeing because he was just beautiful to watch. You know, I'm glad you mentioned the layup thing because...

And he, you know, he's either the greatest or the second greatest behind you for being able to get a layup off in traffic from every angle. But, you know, he's the guy I'm watching now, but I always thought that was one of your great skills. Like your ability to go left, right, any angle, any angle off the backboard, any kind of arc on the shot. Is there anybody else other than you two that's been like that? Cause I honestly can't think of anybody.

I would say Rod Strickland, you know, Rod Strickland had a great, a great layup package, um, you know, finish around the basket, right hand, left hand. Um, you know, and that's, you know, we, we had to finish, you know, through contact, um,

So you wasn't able to open up and really do all the great things that we see Kyrie is able to do. But I would say Rod, I would definitely put Rod Strickland in that category. Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah, because...

The other thing that Kyrie reminds me of you with is on a fast break with people in front of him. And most guys will either lay back or they'll wait for another wing to try to run like a two on two or three and two fast break. But he sees it the same way you saw it. We were like, oh, I'm just going to go at these guys and figure out how to get my shot off, which is Iverson was like that too. I, you know,

Iverson is always in this small guard conversation, but I always feel like Iverson was like a 6'7 score trapped in a six foot body, right? Whereas you and Kyrie, I think, were wired a tiny bit differently. But the difference with your era was you could just get annihilated when you went to the basket. Kyrie doesn't really have that problem. Not only could you get annihilated, you got annihilated. That was part of the price you paid. And, you know, it's like,

Back then, it was the land of the Giants. And they said, the referees, the fans, and everybody was like, okay, well, if you come in here, this is what you got to expect. Like, you're going to get hit. You're going to get beat up. You're going to get bloodied up. But that's the land of the Giants that you're going into. So if you go in there, you know, good luck to you. And that's just how it was. You took, I think...

Probably the worst like stitch injury of any player I can remember. You almost got a hockey injury from the Carl Malone elbow. I don't remember a worse. Well, how many stitches was that? 47. Oh my God. And let's be honest, kind of a cheap shot.

or maybe even just a full fledged cheap shot, but that's kind of the way it went back then. The elbows were a lot sharper, but yeah, I don't remember anybody taking one that bad. I mean, we had people break orbital bones and broken noses, stuff like that, but you got, you literally got, what was it over the left eyebrow, the right eyebrow? I can't remember. Uh, the left. Yeah. But you know what was really cool? Like, like years later, like,

Carl Malone and I, we actually did a sit-down interview for NBA TV. And, you know, I held a grudge for a long time, and I swore that, you know, at some point in time, I was going to put a scar on him like he put one on me. You know, that was, you know, at some point, right? But when we sat down and, you know, I asked him the question, and before I can even get it out,

He said, you know, I want to apologize to you. He said, I meant to hit you. He said, I'm not apologizing for hitting you. Yeah. But I didn't mean to do that. Right. And that's what I can respect. Right. You can respect that. OK, guy hit you and and everybody got hit. But when he said, I didn't mean to do that, I have to accept that apology and forgive him. And if you go back and you look at it, if you go back and you look at that interview,

Like he was almost in tears. And you never really realize what the other person is carrying, you know, all these years. And I think forgiving him took a big weight off his shoulders. And I'm glad that we were able to have that moment. But I still hate that he hit me like that. I'm going to guess Robert Parrish and Bill Lambert are probably never going to have that moment.

- Or Bird and Lambert, or anyone and Lambert. I don't know if anyone's having that moment with Lambert. Do you think? - No, probably not sit down a moment like that, but I will tell you this, from a respect factor, and you've heard us talk about the respect that we have for the Celtics at Nauseam. I mean, they were great teachers, great mentors, beat us up, and the thing that I love about the Lambert story

And I would hope people would go back and document it. You know, when Lambert first came to the Pistons, you know, we started, you know, we started three white guys. We started Benson, Trafuka, and Lambert. And Lambert was one of the few white centers in the league. And early on in his career, and Bill, you remember this, like guys were just turning around and literally taking their fists and punching him right in the face. Right. And, and,

And only years later, after taking so many punches in the face, when he started to hit back, he realized like, oh, these guys aren't as tough as I thought they were because now I'm hitting them and, you know, they're doing a little whining and crying where he would get punched in the face, fall on the ground and, you know, get back up and keep on playing. But when he started hitting back,

Oh, then it became a problem. Right. And that was, I mean, basketball was a tiny bit more like hockey back then where scores were settled on the court. I mean, guys started getting thrown out in the mid eighties, but in the seventies guys would fight and stay in the game sometimes, you know, and then eventually that,

That flipped when we got into the nineties, but you got into your shared. I mean, what's weird is you were kind of the enforcer of that team, even though you were one of the smallest guys, you were, you were the kind of the sheriff of, of all that stuff. And you're always in the, in the mix with that stuff, which I always thought, um, was unusual. Cause I think people look back and they think look, Lambert and more. And that was one of the fun things we did that documentary, which I think is 10 years ago, pretty much,

This month, we did the Bad Boy Pistons for 30 for 30, which was one I was really passionate about. And you had it. We did all the interviews. You hadn't seen it. And we did a postgame show on ESPN Live. And it was me and it was you and it was Jalen and it was Doug Collins. And we got to watch the documentary with you and you hadn't seen it.

And I honestly, it was a, it was a career highlight for me being in the room for you. You were so emotional watching it. It, it, you know, I, I think for, you could describe all the reasons why, but watching you go through the gamut of emotions for two hours, and then we had to go on live TV and talk about it. It was just, it was just really cool. Do you remember that? I do. And you know, those like, you know, that, that time, like you, you talk about the seventies, right? Well,

Remember, I came in in 81. So everybody was still kind of playing that way. So the heartaches that you had to go through and the teams you had to beat. I mean, Philadelphia was a great team. Boston was a great team. L.A. was a great team. Milwaukee was a great team. And the physicality that you had to endure at that time.

And the heartaches that you had to overcome. Remember, I was I was a small guy. I got drafted out of Indiana and and we had just won a national championship. And everyone was saying that a small player could never lead or win in the NBA as a point guard. And you remember every every point guard was six, seven, six, nine, six, six. There were no.

There were no little guys like me trying to win or expected to win. And definitely you couldn't win by being a leading scorer and also assisting. That was like, you know, impossible to do as a small player. And so watching that and going through that and reliving all that, you know, that memory, you know, it was just so many heartaches and ups and downs and trying so hard to overcome.

that when we watched it that day and Jalen was there and you and Doug, it was emotional because, hey, you wasn't supposed to do it and you did it and you overcame and you beat all the odds. Right. Well, there was also that other piece that I think the documentary tapped into, but also just even talking to you even after we did the show when you were still emotional about it.

That team won two straight titles during an era where it was really tough to win two straight titles, right? And now we're starting to see the way the league is now, how deep the league is. It's so hard to win two straight. But you were between the Bird Magic era and then the MJ era. And you were considered... The Pistons were just looked at as... You were almost like the Larry Holmes. You know, the champs that held the title between all the other champs everybody liked. And there was...

I don't want to say lack of respect, but a lack of appreciation, I think for how good those teams are. Like when I did my basketball book, I had the 89 team as the fourth best team of all time. I mean, you absolutely ripped through the playoffs and destroyed everybody, you know? And I just don't think you got the credit for that. So that was one of the cool things for me when we did the doc was like, yeah, this team was freaking incredible. Um, from a defense standpoint, you know, when Minnesota did what they did to Denver, uh,

And the greatest defensive teams of all time started coming up. For me, it's you guys in 89 versus the 2004 Ben Wallace Pistons as the two best defensive teams I've ever seen. Do you feel like you guys have the championship belt? Is it an open debate? Like what, if you were going to make the case for the 89 team, what would you say? I would say, uh, I would say we're, we're in the conversation with the 204 Piston team and also, uh,

What was the other team you just mentioned? Well, the 89 Pistons. I think some people would have the 96 Bulls in there because having Pippen and Jordan and Rodman. Yeah, I would say those three teams because we could guard anywhere and we can guard anybody at any time. But I thought our 89 team really set the standards.

of how defense can be played in the NBA. Because you remember, we were so against the grain at that time as a basketball team with two small guards in the backcourt. Lambert, Mahorn, Edwards, you know, Mark Aguirre. You know, I got to throw Adrian Dantley in there too because he was a big part of what we had done. But I would say, like,

All defensive schemes and discipline, the way we trapped, the way we rotated, the way we moved in and out, defended 94 feet. Defensively, teams weren't playing that way. And I think we set the standard and then the rest of the league started to follow. But I don't think anybody has come close to what we did with that 89 team with Mahorn defense.

And I think the other Houston team, the 2014 was the closest. And then, you know, Chicago with, with Pippen, with Pippen, Jordan and Rodman. I mean, I think, you know, you, you, you can make the, the argument that, you know, Scotty was one of the best defenders ever.

He and Rodman, of all time. I mean, you really can make that argument that those two together and Pippen alone by himself, again, you can seriously make the argument that he was one of the best defenders of all time. Yeah, if I'm thinking swing defenders, it's those two and it's Kawhi in the mid-2010s. And that's the list. I think those are the three guys. If I was going to make them out Rushmore, the fourth spot gets a little...

you can make cases for different guys, but those three guys have to be on it. And I think for me that it's whether 04 versus 89, 04 had that great run, which was distinct. Like what they did to the 04 Lakers, you know, was insane. Like that, what they did to Kobe, that series and, and all of it. But, uh, you guys, it was the sustained domination. And I think that

If you're going to make the case for 89, the Rodman piece would be the final nail in the coffin for that team in a good way. Because that late 80s Rodman, I don't feel like I've ever seen a defender quite like that, that could guard all five positions at the highest possible level. Bird was breaking down by the late 80s, but you could feel it in the 88 playoffs. What he was doing to Bird in the 88 playoffs, I just never seen anyone guard Bird like that.

And we, and all the fans, we were all like, what's going on? He can't go by this guy, you know? And I just felt like he, what he grew into in 89 where you basically couldn't keep them off the floor. Right. They're, they're hit a point where he had to be out there in every big situation. So that, that might tip it for me. But do you think Rodman as, as a lineup weapon might still be number one for non centers, right? Yeah, I would, I would, you know, what, what he did,

What he came into the league and what he grew into and what he did, for non-finners, you know, like I say, he and Scottie, but I would have to give Robin the edge because of rebounding. Right. Because not only would he shut you down, but then he would rebound the basketball. Scottie wasn't as great a rebounder as Dennis. But, you know, like you say, those two plus Kawhi, you know, don't get any better than that.

When you watch these Minnesota guys and people like included me on this podcast after that game to that against Denver. And I didn't know if it was sustainable, but for me, that was the first time I had seen defense like that since the 04 Pistons and going back to you guys way back when. Then you see them against Dallas in game one.

And Luka seemed like he had kind of figured it out. And it didn't seem, this is where they kind of fall a little historically, if you're going to compare them to 89 and 04, where it doesn't seem like they have the guy to guard Luka. McDaniels felt like a little bit too small. I'm not sure. Maybe it's going to be Edwards the next, maybe they'll try Towns. But did you notice that as you were watching it? Yeah, exactly. And what I think, you know, watching it, I kept saying is,

Hey, they may be the same length and size, but one guy is way bigger than the other. I mean, I mean, you know, they may both stand like six, nine, six, 10, but Luca is, you know, I mean, he is, he's a big boy. And when, when he put, when he gets you out of position, just like, just like your kids, right.

When they get you out of position and Larry and Kevin, when them guys get you out of position, what's brilliant about those guys is they keep you out of position. You never are able to get back around. You're able never to get back to your fundamental base. Soon as you make a mistake and they get you out of position, they keep you out of position and then you're at their mercy.

Are those the two guys that are the most 80s out of all the stars we have for you now? Most definitely. Yeah. For different reasons, right? Jokic, because he was so unselfish. I mean, he's basically like a bird and Magic had a big Serbian baby. And then Luka, just how he uses his body and it's just so unusual. But last night reminded me there was some bird stuff and some of the stuff he was doing last night where he just...

It felt like he was covered, but he was never really covered, you know, which is a whole other level of when you're good offensively. Sometimes it felt like he could have shot right away, but he was waiting for the guy to come over so he could take one more dribble and shoot in his face. I think... I thought Minnesota was going to win the series like in seven, and I still do. And I think it totally makes sense to let down after the seven-game series they had. Like, if Dallas was going to steal a game, it was game one. But I would be worried about the Luka piece. Did you have...

When you were playing at your peak, did you have a seven-game war like that that you won and then you just had to play two days later? Do you remember an experience like that? Actually, it was Chicago in 90. When we beat Chicago in the seven-game series and we had been playing, I think we had played like, you know,

eight games because we finished the series with four. So we had played like maybe like eight games in like, you know, 12 days. And then we, we open up the, the, with Portland game one. Yeah. And, and we ran out of gas and I think they beat, I think Portland came in and got us game one. And that was their last one. Yeah. And, and, but, you know, but, but this is different because Luca, um,

Luca and Kyrie, you know, these are two of the best offensive players that will go down in history as ever playing our game. Wow. So, you know, these two offensively, you know, they can do what they want to do when they want to do it. And, you know, ain't no scouting report for them. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're right. You know, I remember, you know, and this was the brilliance of Chuck Daly, right?

So when we were playing against Boston, we would watch film on everybody else, but we wouldn't watch film on Larry. And so finally I asked him, I said, you know, why we don't, why we don't ever talk about, you know, how we're going to defend Larry and everything else. Chuck goes, I don't want to scare the shit out of you. So I don't show you film of him. Oh my God. That's crazy. You know,

I remember when I did TV with Magic for a year and we spent a lot of time talking about basketball and Jalen was there too. And, you know, I always approached basketball as a fan. I read everything possible. I watched as much as I possibly could. I had my opinions, right? And then there was this level that those guys had from having played. There were things they could see that I just couldn't see.

because I hadn't played. Right. And I remember one of the guys was Kyrie, the way they talked about the stuff Kyrie did. And I just looked at him back then that was before LeBron got there. He was like a good stats, bad team guy. And they were like talking about how, no, no, this guy's special. You don't understand. Like, so I, they just could see things I couldn't see. Then Kyrie, he, that last Celtics season's awful. The Brooklyn experience is a nightmare.

And just me, guy who never played, I'm like, that guy's a sunk cost. I wouldn't go near that guy. There's no way, right? But Dallas, Jason Kidd, you know, they need to put a second star next to Luka, they lost Brunson. And they're seeing the glass half-full version of Kyrie.

So you're watching this. You're one of the 30 best players of all time, 25 best players of all time. You're watching Kyrie as a sunk cost. Did you give up on him? Oh, me? Never. If you look back, when Kyrie was going through all the stuff that he was going through in Brooklyn, I was one of the lone voices out there saying, you know, don't give up on him. I love him. Stay positive. Because, you know, he's such a talent. And you remember...

Bill, when you were in school, right? You know, back in the day, we used to always have those teachers who would come in the classroom and they would see something in one of the kids in the classroom that nobody else saw. And they would say, let me have that kid. I want to spend time with that kid. And that's what I saw in Kyrie. Like when you, what you see in Kyrie today is one of the most beautiful people, along with one of the most beautiful players.

So now, now maturity, life experience, basketball has come together and connected. And sometimes you have to wait for it, but some players are worth the wait. And he was always worth the wait. That's well said. Well, I wish I got to just, I just got to be more proactive about getting you on the podcast more often. Cause I love talking to you, but I'm glad all as well. Thank you for popping on. Thank you. And I'll see you soon.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Ryan and Rob Mahoney. Thanks to Isaiah Thomas. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti as well. Don't forget the Prestige TV podcast 30th anniversary of the craziest two-part episode in the history of Beverly Hills 90210. Me and Juliette Lipman will break it down. That's going up over the weekend. Don't forget you can watch all the rewatchable stuff and the big picture and all of our movie stuff on our new Ringer Movies YouTube channel. My YouTube channel is...

YouTube.com slash at Bill Simmons. And we are going to be, I think Marcel and I are doing a Sunday pod, even though it's Memorial Day weekend. So enjoy the weekend. Have a great time. I hope it's sunny and happy wherever you are. And I'll see you on Sunday night.

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