A Shocking Knicks/Wolves Trade, KAT Predictions and the NPBA Is Here With Austin Rivers
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a pretty bizarre out of nowhere, next Timberwolves trade that could have dramatic ramifications for the 2024, 25 NBA season. We're gonna be talking about it in one second. Don't forget, you can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, where we're going live on Sunday night with Cousin Sal, breaking down week four NFL, doing guess the lines for week five. You can join us on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel live. All right, let's get to it. Bring in Pearl Jam. Here's Austin Rivers. Let's go.

All right, we were taping this Saturday afternoon Pacific time. There was a huge NBA trade last night. I was at a dinner party. I was having drinks. My phone started blowing up. I'm like, what the hell? I see the trade and all of a sudden text after text and I'm just going,

I'm not doing this. I'm putting my phone away. I'm going to read about this tomorrow. And then was reading about it today a little bit. And I'm like, what the fuck was this trade?

And I'm battling on it. You texted me and you're like, yeah, what the fuck was this trade? And we just decided to hop on the pod and talk about it. Austin Rivers is here. You have a special bonus. You played with Towns. But yeah, so we'll go. I want quick question. And then I big picture eight questions for you. But quick question. Now that you've sat with it for a few hours, do you feel like one or the other won this trade? If I had to choose, I would say the Knicks.

Okay. Tell me why. At the end of the day, I do think Carl Anthony Towns is an upgrade from Julius Randle. I think Julius Randle is a fabulous player, a really good player. But Carl Anthony Towns is, I think, a different level. And then you add to that his abilities, I think, align with what they need in terms of spacing the floor. You have a big that's going to be able to do that. The pick and pop game, I think, with Jalen Brunson is going to be fantastic.

Carl's highly skilled, doesn't need the ball in his hands a lot. He's more going to shoot or he's going to make a move right away. I think Julius is a guy that you throw the ball down to and you got to watch him take his time. You know, he takes time to get his baskets. He needs rhythm dribbles, multiple jab fakes, multiple pump fakes. It's almost like it's tiring watching him score. You actually commend him for having the conditioning to do it. But so I think that's what they wanted to do. And I think they made that decision when they paid OG.

You know, when they paid him $200 million, they're like the same position, but they're different types of players. So they're saying kind of they're going that route because he's not a three. I don't like OG at the three. I like him as an undersized kind of four, especially in today's NBA. So, yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. I think they would win. I get why people like DiVincenzo. I'm going the other way. I'm zagging.

So, and I don't even know if I feel like I'm not going to be like, mark this down, put it in magic marker. I'm right on this. But as I sat with it for a few hours, I actually liked it more for Minnesota because they got out of that town's money. And I don't know if the way the team was constructed with the ownership influx with how much money they're going to have to spend on Edwards. They have to keep Gobert just in general, then to pay towns 220 million for four years when I don't know what your ceiling is for him.

And now you flip him into Randall for a year. You get DiFincenzo, who can be your sixth man, who's a proven guy who can finish games. And you have more flexibility. Nas can get the town's minutes. And it just makes sense to me. But the Randall piece is the part I can't figure out. Okay, so I'm leaning Minnesota. You're leaning Knicks. But I want to go through. If I have to. Yeah, if I have to. And by the way, I'm not saying like, don't put that a magic marker. That was just my lean. Eight questions. First one.

why now for the Knicks? Why right before training camp, where was the patience? Because I remember I was talking to a Knicks fan like three days ago, Knicks buddy of mine. And I'm like, I kind of like that the Knicks are saying we don't know what our roster is yet. We lost Hartenstein. We might not have Robinson for three months. We don't really have a center, but we don't have to figure this out now. It's 82 games plus four rounds in the playoffs. Let's see how this goes and we'll make a move. And now all of a sudden,

They're just, this is it. They're pot committed to now this roster. So why now? What happened? I think the only thing you could hang your hat on in this sense would be what other big are we going to be? I think Carl was made available and they're probably thinking, what other big are we going to get of this guy's caliber? Right. So you're looking at like the Vucevic. Yeah. It's like, this is the best case scenario right now. We're going to wait until the season and hopefully get someone better than Carl. Carl's like probably the third, fourth best setter in the league. So it's like,

At this point, you're just like, let's move somebody. I don't think Dave Vincenzo was a guy they wanted to make a part of the deal. But that was the only way it was going to get done. That was my feeling as well. I'm thinking like,

On the one hand, this deal is there for Minnesota in January, right? They're still doing it because they can get off the town's money. The only way it's not there in January is if Minnesota comes out like gangbusters. Dillingham's good right away. They're like 24 and five after 29 games. They're like, yeah, we're actually not going to mess with this. My guess, and I don't know, and I asked around, I was trying to find out, and I still feel like my bet would be New Orleans, but my guess was another team was creeping around towns.

And it became a shit off the pot thing with the Knicks. They're probably talking for a couple of weeks with the Knicks and Minnesota saying, we're not doing this without DDV. He's got to be in it. And Nick's like, well, we can't do that. We'll put, what about Robinson? We'll do Robinson and Randall. We'll throw whatever. And they're like, no, we want DDV. Like, well, we can't do it. So then maybe around Wednesday, Thursday, you get new Orleans. Maybe they're like, Hey, Brandon Ingram. And we have picks and,

Can we get Towns? Because they don't have a center either. Maybe it's the Clippers. Maybe it's Houston offering a three for one. I don't think it was Golden State because I don't think Golden State wanted to be in the Towns business. But does that make sense to you that maybe a second team or maybe they use somebody as a stalking horse to make the Knicks do that trade? That's all it takes. All it takes is for one other person to like you.

Or have interest in it. And I mean, suddenly it's now it's okay. Now we got a war here. We got to make a decision here. He might go to New Orleans tomorrow. I heard New Orleans is talking and things are progressing. I mean, that's like the language that happens in the front office. It's always those type of words. And people just kind of make a decision. I would have liked them to go to the season and just seeing what worked, what didn't, who fit in, who did it. Devin Chinzo is a very underrated loss. I don't think people understand the shooting he provided the Knicks.

I know he's a good hustle player. I know he made all the little things. That's great. And those are not overlooked things, but they have a guy like Josh Hart who does that. The difference is no one on that team can shoot the ball like Devin Shinzo, especially after last year where he was shooting it. And not only where, how he shoots, he's a catch and shoot guy, catch and shoot quick shot. But Kel's a rhythm shooter. Josh Hart's not a, you know, a shooter. He does a lot, you know, all the other things in terms of spacing.

That concerns me. They're two guard spot. Josh Hart's going to start. You've got to hope Josh shoots above 37, 38% there. They're going to need him to be around that mark. But they would say Towns would be the extra spacing because they weren't going to have a center that spacing, so that's the switch. For sure. And that's the upgrade. That's where they get that, right? Yeah. So that's why I said the Knicks kind of

When you told me to choose, I went the Knicks side just due to the fact that at least... You didn't love it, though. I don't love it. I don't love it if I had to pick. Can we talk about DDB for a second? Because that's such a big part of this trade. I'm so glad you said that. He was 18 a game and 43% three-point shooting last year. Crunch time guy. Fearless. Proved that he can play big minutes and big games with big states on the road or at home. Right?

It wasn't like anybody else they had. And I think it's a huge loss for them, not to mention RIP the Villanova four. I had this as the third question. Like, we didn't even get to see the four Villanova guys together. We just saw their pictures next to each other. That was it. Crazy. That's how I know. And just based off of Carl Anthony Towns' reaction, you know, the dot, dot, dot.

I think both sides were stunned that this happened. We've seen all of this hoopla around Villanova having this

pretty much the Villanova Knicks, all those guys have a history of high success, obviously, at the college level. They got a coach that seems in line with how they play and who they are, Thibodeau. And a real chemistry that you have when you've played with dudes that you grew up with. I thought that was really special, those three guys. If you put me and my four college dudes together that I won a national title with on an NBA team, man, we're going to be

playing like it's, you know what I mean? Like that's going to be natural from day one. So that's, it was disappointing to hear that he's in that. And then he's the best shooter on the team. So, you know, again, they got,

Carl Anthony Towns, which is great. But like, man, if I'm guarding Josh Hart and Brunson's right here on the top of the key where he likes to operate, he likes to operate on his one-on-one, I'm right there in the load side, man. Like, you got to pass to Josh. You know, where before, I'm like hugged up on Devin Chinzo. If I gave him one second, that ball is launched. You know what I'm saying? At a high clip. That's a big deal. You know, they lost a lot.

But on the flip side, they had no center. And I don't know if we can make that point strong enough. They must have really felt like Robinson. You know, it's like, oh, it could be two months. Like in NBA time, two months could be six months. We're doing this with Porzingis now. They're like December. Now they're like, might be November. And then it's like, oh, it could be February. You just don't. It's like a three month range or whatever date. So they were going to have to play basically Randall and Ananobi at center. Got Randall in a contract year.

Now playing out of position who seemed unhappy anyway. And that goes back to the, this question of where was the patience? Why now? Yep. I feel, and you know, I might've, might've heard a couple of things too about this. I feel like there was some real chemistry concerns with Randall that, you know, bringing him in under, you know, as, as kind of the, the, the ugly stepchild of this Villanova four team, uh,

And he's over there and he's underpaid by the fact that he's a top 50 guy. He's going to have to play out of position. Brunson's going to have the ball all the time. And they must have not liked something, right? That's fair. Well, it's like, you know...

it's always hard for a player, especially a star player, when things don't go to plan. And the plan was never for Brunson to be the best player. I mean, when they traded for him, they thought he was going to be a good player. I don't think anybody thought Brunson was going to be this level of a player where he's like an MVP candidate and a top point. You know what I mean? Could he be a top three guy and an excellent team? Yeah. And now we have these answers where before people thought they were crazy for giving him $100 million. So now we're here where he has a new friendly contract that he did, which is crazy. But

this guy's the guy. Julius has had to take a natural backseat. He misses games last year. OG plays. They go like 23 and four, some crazy number. I don't know what it was. So it's like they have this success without him. It reminds me of the Boston Kyrie thing. They were really good without him. So when he came back, people were like, we don't really know if we want him. We have young guys. What is his team now? Yeah, what is his team now? This is weird. And then they pay OG, who I know is like a 3-4 tweener. But it's like,

200 million, man. That was a decision right then and there where they're like, this is kind of where we're headed. If I'm a two guard and someone pays another scoring guard 200 million, I'm like, what's their plans for me? Long term, they're keeping both of us? Who's finishing the game? Are we playing small? We can't play small. We can't play both of us together. With Josh, we have no shooting. So it's like,

It was a decision right then and there. And again, I think they panicked. Like you said, someone might have an interest in Carl. And they're like, yo, we need a center. We need a center now. Carl's the best available. And by the way, Carl's a really good player. We got to lose DiVincenzo. We got to lose him. Maybe we could figure out some shooting. They got Big Bride. They got some other guys that could shoot the ball. You could always kind of maybe find shooting here and there. After all, they did find DiVincenzo. No one thought he could shoot like that before he came to New York.

So, you know, I think you get Carl available. Fundamentally, they're looking at last year's team and they're like, Towns replaces DiFincenzo, basically. DiFincenzo and Hartenstein. Right? And the Mitchell thing. And then Bridges replaces nobody. Bridges is just added. So I guess Bridges would replace DDV and then Towns replaces Hartenstein. And both of those guys are better than the guys replacing him. Now, they gave up every asset they had to get to that point. Yeah. But,

Fundamentally, that's what it is. - That's why I go to New York. - Well, the thing is, theoretically, it's like this is one of those theoretical teams now where you look at them and you go, man,

shooting everywhere. They're kind of built like the Celtics, right? Two really good two-way rings, a stretch five who can actually shoot 40%, somebody who can handle the ball on crunch time and they can run the offense through and there's just threats everywhere of Josh Hart unless he just goes sideways with his three. Yeah, he...

Defensively, their wings, like you said, man, that is to have Mikel, Josh, and OG all out there at the same time on the floor. When you talk about like 50-50 balls and rebounds and all that, like they're going to dominate because that's what those guys do for a living. You know what I mean? Like they're going to be a very, this is a Tib, this is a Tibido dream team if I've ever seen one. You know what I mean? Well, except for the nightmare of coaching towns again because those guys didn't like each other. That's also interesting too. This dynamic of him back with,

with the, I mean, especially after, I mean, I've been, I play for the Knicks, I play for Tibbs and I play with Carl. The fit is unique. I don't, that's going to be interesting. I wouldn't say this is peaches and herb reunited. Just a lot of love on stage. Just a lot of romance. I think this is, there's going to be a lot of good acting.

You know, I talked to Carl. We hashed things out a couple years ago. You know, we kept it between us. But I think we're in a really good place. Like, what else is Tibbs going to say? Yeah, I hated coaching him and we fought all the time. You know, Carl was young and immature and I was on his ass all the time and we never really clicked. But now he's older. Like, what else are you going to say? Now he's older. Maybe he's more mature. You know, personality-wise, they don't even like...

Just knowing both of them. They just don't even... That doesn't make... But again, like you said, man, they're going to play the faces. Wait, that's the understatement of the century. The Towns personality and the Tips personality. I'm going to say, what do those two guys have in common? It's complete opposites, polar opposites. But you like Towns. I do like him. I think he's a nice guy. I think he's vastly misunderstood.

I get what's frustrating about him. Some of the things he does in the game as a coach, you want to pull your hair out. Some decisions he makes, the fouling, some of the stuff you do, you're just like, Carl, why? It's the same thing over and over and over. The fouling 35 feet from the basket when he already has four fouls and he just crashes into somebody. He has a...

He has a history of just the silly fouling amongst some other things. He's the worst silly fouler. He's the ghost of silly fouling. I don't know an NBA history who's been worse than him with timing, the dumbness of the foul, the consistency of it. But we overlook it due to the talent. You know what I mean? He's so good. He is so talented. He is so...

Fucking good, bro. But he's one of those guys that we see on Twitter 25 years from now. Carl Anthony Towns was a problem. He shot 40% and it's like, yeah, he was a problem, but he was also a problem if you're trying to win the title. So that leads to the second question. My second question was Carl Anthony Towns in New York City with Knicks fans. Is there a more exciting NBA subplot right now? Because this could go every direction.

Either way, I'm going to go for him because he's good. If that dude laces him up, you know, one thing they'll appreciate is if you play good, you know what I mean? If he's out there shooting 40%, dropping 20 a night, they're going to love Carl. They're going to love Carl. There are going to be times where, you know, Carl's going to have to be prepared to play in that type of atmosphere. You know what I mean? He's a different type of guy emotionally, personality wise. He's been in Minnesota his entire career.

This is a huge stage for him. This is a different stage. You were always on the young, bad team that was up and coming, and then last year, y'all really got there. But now you are thrown in a team that's like, we're trying to win right now with a coach that expects right now. The coach, historically, we know you and him weren't the greatest. That's an understatement. And now you're being with him again on the biggest Broadway show in basketball sports. I mean, this is what it is. So it's like, it is a very interesting dynamic. I mean... Well, on the one side...

incredible situation for him, right? Because conceivably in towns, I think I've probably been of anybody who has a relatively big platform, probably the most frustrated with him. Rosillo might be number one. Maybe I'm number two, but just the talent's there and you just, he's one of those, when's he going to get it? When's he going to get it? And there were real signs for last year, right? But then you look at him with this Knicks team

The best version of him is as a stretch five on a team that can then handle some of the rebounding and some of the defense for him so he doesn't have to be a traditional center, right? Yep. That's the Knicks. Ananobi can really help. Ananobi can in some ways almost be like the surrogate center with some bigger guys and guard some big dudes. Or you have the pick and roll piece with Brunson. It's just a better situation than putting Rudy Gobert. Just this. Yeah.

And then the shooting and the spacing. And if he can ever figure out some sort of pick and roll thing with Brunson, you've got that bigger stage. Like you said, it's a bigger stage that you can't compare Minnesota to New York city. You know, it's like every single game is a play is like a playoff game in Minnesota that he's going to play in New York. And if he's good, the fans are going to love him.

If he starts doing weird town stuff, he's going to become super polarizing. It happened to Randall and it'll be, I think, worse, right? And Randall was not exactly Mr. Popularity. Which is crazy. And this just tells you the amount of pressure it is to play for that city. You know, what was Randall? 26 and seven a night. Right. You know, like this is a guy putting up some phenomenal numbers for you guys, man. Like Knicks fans. I mean, just the general idea of like, they hated a guy who gave them 25 a night.

You know what I mean? Like that concept, it's hard to like in player terms, you just start thinking like, wow, you know what I mean? Like the pressure of that. I mean, Julius is probably relieved in some ways, probably like, let me get out of here, go play somewhere else. Like,

This has not been great for me. I've had great moments. You know what I mean? I've really broke out my shell here. This is where it came together for me as an NBA star. You know, in some ways, he probably was going to look at New York. You have to look at his success if you're Julius. Before, you were in New Orleans and LA trying to find your way. It wasn't really working. Then you go to New York and become an all-star. So it was very, you know, pivotal for him to have a stage to do that. You get to do that in New York. And now he probably gets away from that because it's a little toxic at this point. I had some Rational Knicks fans in my life who were like,

I just don't like him. I don't like the faces he makes. I just don't like the ball stopper. Yeah. Julius. I don't, I'm glad you don't like the look on his face. I think he, I think he's a black hole. I don't get it. I don't think he's a winning player. And then when he got hurt and they played better without him, all the people felt that way. We're like, see, it's telling you the whole time. Just, just sometimes you're one injury away from being great. And we had that injury and I just needed him in the playoffs.

They did. They did need him in the playoffs. They got a little four players. They needed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Brunson Brunson had to do a lot at that point and he could have used Julius, but you know what? I'm glad you said the ball stopper comment. Cause,

I'm a fan of Julius's game. You know, he's a very talented player, hardworking guy, one of the hardworking players I ever play with. But his style of play, like you said, man, he takes his time. You know, he, he is, I don't want to call him a black hole, but like, listen, he's a score. It's called, they're all black holes. They're all ball hogs. All the best scores in the leagues are right. Any guys averaging above 22 points a game is a ball hog, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like just for the most part, unless you're like a Nicola Jokic type guy who's plays in a whole different way, everybody else, they get the ball and,

They require a lot of dribbles and a lot of time. And Julius is definitely one of those guys, right? Like Brandon Ingram is another one of those guys. Certain guys. And that's why when you put them in the international, when the ball has to move and the flow is different, those guys really struggle. And that's why this for Minnesota, bro. I don't know. I'm gonna let you ask your questions because that might be one of them. Well, two more things on Towns.

First of all, the contract, 49.5 this year, 53.1, 57.1, 61.0 player option. So to say the Knicks are pot committed,

would be an understatement. And they got Bridges coming. Bridges is going to be basically a free agent in 26 and he's going to be another 40 minutes. So this is like, they've traded on their picks. Yeah. Dolan. He's going for it. He's going for it. But you think about, so we do the ringer 100, right? Where we, we, um, we, everybody ranks, we aggregate the rankings. And I had towns, this last list I just handed in towns was 32 on my list. 32nd best player in the week.

Randall had 45th. Okay. And Dante was 93rd. So they basically took 45 and 93 and their last Detroit pick. That's not even 90. Who knows if that's even ever be a first rounder to move up to 32. Right. So you look at that and you go, well, that's not, but that's not why they did it. They did it because of the shooting and because they needed the center. And because theoretically there should be an awesome team. I just, the question for me,

That everyone loved that Knicks team last year, the overachieving such a tips team. Oh, the Villanova guys. And now you bring bridges in everybody's like, this is great. Don't do anything else. I love, I love what we're doing. Let's not panic. And now they've done another thing. And now if that team doesn't look like last year's team.

and it's a little choppy, people are going to be like, why the fuck did they do all this? I like last year's team. A lot of pressure. Yeah. A lot of pressure, especially on Carl. A lot of unfair pressure. I mean, it's called for what it is. And it's hard to say unfair when he's getting paid that much, but they're expected to be really good right away. When is it unfair? How many million dollars per year? You said 60. He's a 49.5 this year, so it might be mildly fair. Fair point. A lot of pressure, though.

Well, and also a guy that we have wondered about. Actually, let's take a break because I have this. I wanted to talk about his career moment for him. So one quick break. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. From tip-off to hoisting the trophy, celebrate every moment of the WNBA finals with a Michelob Ultra in hand. The WNBA is so hot. We just launched a Ringer WNBA show podcast. Yeah, that's happening. You know what goes well with it? Michelob Ultra.

The taste, super smooth. Low calories and carbs. Why not save on calories if you're drinking a good beer? I like to keep it nice and cold. It's just really good. And you got the WNBA finals, like all kinds of crazy matchups. Might have the two best teams in the league playing in round two.

It's going to be amazing. We'll see how far Kate and Clark goes. You're not going to want to miss a moment. Stock up on Michelob Ultra for the WNBA finals. Michelob Ultra, superior light beer. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2024 Anheuser-Busch. Michelob Ultra registered light beer, St. Louis, Missouri. This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Wild Wings Go. Takeout and delivery from Buffalo Wild Wings is now Buffalo Wild Wings Go.

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We're talking about Carl Anthony Towns. This is such a fascinating career moment for him. And this happens sometimes in the NBA, right? Like Bridges gets traded from the Nets to the Knicks. I don't really have any questions about Bridges. I know what kind of player he is. I think he's a winning player. We've seen him succeed on a finals team. We've seen him at least try to hold the fort on a bad team, but he's probably more meant to be on as a third best guy on a finals team or a team like this current Knicks team.

I don't have any more questions about him. Towns had bad questions his entire career. And that Minnesota team hit a point during the playoffs where it was like, shit, they figured this out. They have this crazy size defense on the wings. I remember doing a podcast about this team has a chance to be the best defensive team in 20 years. Now all of a sudden they've blown it up. And Towns comes in as this guy who just is going to be this 20 years from now. Carl Anthony Towns was a problem social media guy.

But maybe he could also still be really good. And maybe he could be the second best player in a title team. We saw this happen with Andrew Wiggins. Andrew Wiggins was the second best player in the Golden State Warriors who won the title, which gives me hope for Towns. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Wiggins adjusted his game, though. I mean, especially, I mean, look at the growth in his game, the arc. He went from being like a guy who just didn't really know how to play basketball, scored the ball in Minnesota, really like, wastes his time. You know, those type of points. 20 shots a game. Yeah, to where he's playing efficient basketball. He's like the third, fourth option some games. Some games, the second option. Some games, not. Defensive guy. Rebounding.

what he did to Luca. I mean, like those series after series after series, even Jalen and Tatum, the way he was guarding those guys, you know, that's why we've been kind of harsh on him the past year or two. We're like, what happened, man? Like, it looked like you figured it, you figured it out. Like what's different now, you know, like just be that guy. But, uh, yeah, I have, I really hope Carl,

Kim put something together, but I feel like people have been so hard on him. I get it. I know he gets paid a lot. I know this. People attack him, his personality, the whole nine yards. You know what I mean? I just want the guy to go somewhere. It looked like you nailed it right on the head. At one point, man, last year in the playoffs, we were watching them like, I don't know if anybody's going to beat this team. I was like, they might be able to beat Boston. They look incredible. When they beat Denver, I was like, this team looks insane right now. They're all blocking shots and rebounding and running the floor. They're all long and athletic. The way they're guarding Jamal Murray, I'm like, bro, this team is

They are good. Like, good God. You know what I mean? And then they just had that weird series versus Dallas and certain things got exposed, especially in the pick and roll. You know, Luca picked that team apart, man. And I think that was like the final straw for this experiment where people were like, yo, we did have a great year. We got it. Let's see if we can make something shake here between the two bigs. One of them got to go.

And Gobert doesn't have the kind of trade value to get Randall. You're not going to get the return. You're not going to get the return. Exactly. So I think Carl was the guy. And he's always been that. He's been dealing with that. This is just interesting right now with Julius Randall. Can we talk about the medicine? Yeah. Well, I had one last thing on Towns.

This is a legacy of the Knicks that predates when you were alive and even before your dad got into the league. Like we're going back to the 70s with Spencer Haywood and Bob McAdoo and, you know, through Stefan Marbury, Larry Johnson, the legacy of this franchise. And one of the reasons they haven't won a title since 1973 is over and over again, they get seduced by these expensive superstars where it's like, well, maybe this will be the city and the team for him.

And Towns is kind of like that. Like this is a 1976 Knicks move where you talk yourself into the glass half full version of a guy that if it doesn't work out, you're fucked. Right. And I, and I understood why they make that made the trade. I see it.

But they could also be fucked if this doesn't work out because there's no second home for him. If this bombs in New York City and now you're talking about, look at Zach Levine right now. Look at Brandon Ingram right now. With one year left on his deal, they can't find a suitor for him. It's become harder and harder to trade these expensive guys

when there's a fire sale sign on them. So this kind of has to work out and the history of the Knicks is not great with this. Maybe they'll be able to change it. Yeah. You know what I mean? No, 100%. Sometimes the history in the skeletons becomes part of the DNA. It's weird.

It's an energy thing. That's the only thing I can come up with. You felt it in the Clippers. The fucking energy and DNA around the Clippers overcame the Clippers. It just felt like no matter how good we were, something was going to hold us back. Whatever that is. I don't know. Something wasn't going to work out. Someone was going to get into it. I totally understand what you're saying. This is definitely, if we're talking about the frustrating...

part of being a Knicks fan. I mean, this is what Stephen A and all these guys yell about every time they're on. I mean, like, as good as they get, it's like, even like you just said a couple minutes ago, they got Mikel and everyone's like,

okay, we're good. We're good now. What a fun team. I love it. We can work with this. We'll see how Julius and OG, if it gets weird, then we can address it then. But let's throw these guys out there and let's figure it out. And then they make this trade. It's like, here we go again. Is this going to work? Because now we're here. Steven Chinzo was a big part of this team. He's gone. Julius, again, was a guy, even you can say whatever you want, put in 25 a night.

You know, so it's just like, this is a big risk. You know, Carl, like we said, is a personality. Is it going to work with him and Tibbs, first and foremost, let alone the environment of playing in the Knicks? Well, now he's got Stephen A. He's got W. Phan.

You know, he's got a way bigger spotlight with the next thing. And then if it doesn't go well, who are they going to blame? I guarantee he'll be the number one person who gets blamed. It's the only person to go. Well, yeah, they're not going to blame the Villanova guy. Yeah. They're not going to be any of those guys. The most popular athlete in the city. They love, they're going to love bridges. Nanobie after the $113 million give back, you know, I, I, he's going to get a statue out there. They, they want to change Brunson going to get a statue.

Yeah, well, I just hope they don't do forensic accounting of Brunson's checking account. If it was really $113 billion, it can't be that much because he can get out of there after two years and maybe upgrade it after that. Yeah, there's some stuff. After two years. All right. Minnesota. Better, worse, or different? If it's one of those three. I'm going with different too. Yeah, they're different. I don't know if they're better or worse yet. Definitely different.

Yeah, I can't say they're worse because Julius is no scrub, man. Julius is a really good player. And then you add Devin Chinzo to the fact that they got another two-way player to an already really good defensive team. Now you got the Kiehl's, you got Nas, you got Jada McDaniels, you got Ant who can really defend, you got Rudy Gobert, we know what he does. Now you throw like a Devin Chinzo and you're like, good God, every single guy on the floor can slide their feet. They're going to have lineups where they're able to switch one through five.

You know what I mean? Like that's a very dangerous weapon to have in today's NBA. Every down screen switch kills a whole play. So they have that ability to do that. And that's part of the reason why like the Nuggets struggled with them. I mean, Jokic just had Nas thrown at him. Then he had Rudy thrown at him. Then he had Carl thrown at him. Like just multiple bodies are thrown at him. Obviously, Carl's not there, but they still have Nas. And I think that's a big reason. Carl being one of the three, I think really helped them. Because it was all three of those guys and it was the totality of it. Now they don't have the same kind of totality, but yeah.

I mean, but they bet on that though. They bet on that. I think the stock on Nas is so high. They're like, you know what? I think we're good. Let it go. Carl. Like this guy's just as good in some ways. Like Nas is fucking talented. They're like, let's let the young guy get some minutes more. We still got Julius in there, but if it doesn't work, he has an expiring contract anyway. And we got this dude right here. Or you can trade him in February because at the time of the deal, you can flip Randall. It doesn't work out. Um, I'm glad you mentioned the Nas thing because there were a lot of moments last season where

When Nas was out there instead of Towns, where it's like, oh, yeah, I'm sure they're worse. Yeah. I might actually like this version of the team a little bit more. And I wonder, Tim Connolly runs that team. Who's a super smart guy. Very well respected.

And I wonder if every time that happened, he was like, hmm, I'm going to file that one away. Because they locked Nas up. Nas is on a good deal. And you think like short term, they're going to get hit this year. But they did save a bunch of money on the luxury tax. I think they saved like $40 million in luxury tax. But then next year, Randall comes off. So that's $30 million that's just off. You replace that with like a $9, $10 million guy and try to patch together the town's minutes with Nas and somebody else with DDV.

and it's still way less than you're paying Towns. And I'm sure that's how they saw it, and they have more flexibility. The Towns thing was just like the Grim Reaper. You go on SpotTrack and you just see it with all their salaries, especially if they're clearly building around Edwards and that's gonna be the guy. And you can't also have a $60 million teammate for him. That's not, you can if it's Jalen Brown. You can if it's Towns.

It's so funny that you said that. It's like, I, you could feel it like even two, three years ago before I took that job last year, I was there. Yeah. And you know, it's not that Carl was, had any animosity towards him. You know, he didn't do anything malicious, anything like that. You could feel it just in some of like the behavioral, like just energy that he was like losing. I don't want to say losing control, but yeah, like it was,

He was losing the alpha dog status. Yeah, the big brand has been his, you know what I mean? And now this guy comes in and he's talking and he's and everyone's so swayed by him, too. It's the way it moves. Like it walks in the locker room and he said it's immediately his. Yeah. And everyone is just like you can see he was just like, what the fuck? You know, it was just

It just happened. And I think they're ready now, especially with the Nas play. I think they're like, yo, I think we can do this. We add DiVincenzo. I just don't like, and I love Julius. I love Julius on a lot of teams in the league. Just not this one, man. You got a guy who's like, he needs like five, six seconds. He's not a quick decision guy. He's not a pick and pop guy. It was already clouded and crowded recently.

With, with, with go bear in him, Julius out there in the middle of the floor, just hovering around. And then you got go bear who's doesn't really, the spacing is going to be awkward.

Yeah. So you think the starting five would be Ant, Conley, McDaniels, Randall and Gobert? Has to be. Who else? And then the bench is Nas, Dante, Dillingham, Alexander Walker, right? Yeah. So it'll be one of these situations where the starter, it'll be like what happened with the Olympic team. The starters come out, they're minus six. The bench comes in, the bench gets the lead back. You're like, oh, they should probably mix this up. And they just

They won't. But really, their crunch time five, Randall's not going to be out there. I don't think. The Nas will be in the Randall spot. And that's going to be a big ego blow. That's going to be a, for sure. Again, we're talking about a 25-9 player. This is a big-time player. He's an all-star. Yeah. You know what I mean? So this is a guy like, wait, this guy's a mid-level contract. Why is this guy finishing the game over me? You know what I mean? What's going on here? Well, you mentioned the spacing with him and Gobert, which is going to be weird. There's also, I love Ant.

And as, as we've discussed in the past, I mean, he's, he's my vote to be the next big American super duper star. It's a little ball stoppery, just a little, right? No, no, no, no. Again,

Again, there's guys like Kobe, Gilbert Arenas, right? Whoever. You go score. They're a little bit of a ball hog, but listen, you're a scorer. Go do what you're supposed to do. But he is a ball stopper, and he's great. We all love Ant, like you said, but that is kind of what he is. That's exactly what Julius Randle is. They're both the same. Julius is not a quick decision guy. You throw to him in the post, you got to wait five seconds for him to score. It is a process. It takes a lot of dribbles. It's a lot of work.

he's picking and popping is not really his game. He wants to catch pump fake, raise you. He does the whole thing. Him with ant. I,

It's a strange dynamic with Rudy on the floor, too. And they have to start that lineup. I hate to say half, but like. Well, there's another version of it where Gobert is not out there and they're playing Nas, Randall, McDaniels, Conley. Or it's they're playing Dante in the McDaniels spot because McDaniels is trick or treat. And there's games when he doesn't have it. They didn't have a swing to bring in for him last year if you didn't have it. Right. That's one of the reasons they lost the Dallas series.

Now with Dante, he can come in. That's a good point. He's not a point guard, obviously, but he gives them a little bit of Conley insurance who's old. And if Dillingham's not ready, you can kind of be like, fuck it. Let's just put out Dante and Ant together and that's our backcourt. That's exactly what they'll do. That's exactly what they'll do. He could bring the ball up. He's not a point guard. What's today's NBA point guard, man? You know what I mean? Yeah, they could definitely do that. I like their flexibility. There's a world where Randall

maybe figures out how to make quicker decisions, but I mean, he's still in his 20s. The other thing is, if he's unhappy, from what we've seen from Edwards and you played with him, when these guys are larger than life, I think he'll have a way of sucking Randall into buying into the program. 'Cause that coulda happened to Towns, right? Towns coulda checked out or gone sideways.

And I thought it was so fascinating watching how Edwards dealt with him psychologically and how inclusive he was to him and how he'd bring press conference. He would tease him on the podium. He was just so clearly trying to boost him up and Bundini Brown him the whole time. And I do think he'll do that with Randall. I don't know if it'll work, but I bet he tries to do it that way. I would imagine just, you know, obviously Julius is a high level player. So you got to have a high level mind to some, you know, to some level. Right. And I play with Julius. He's a smart player.

There's just a human awareness here, right? The Brunson thing, we all agree, kind of came out of nowhere and it was like a back and forth. They didn't like Batman and Robin. That wasn't the term he wanted there. This is a very clear situation he's walking into. There's no way in hell Julius Randall walks into Tim Wolfe's locker room and is like, I'm the best player here. You know what I mean? So I think

He knows even here, like, plus we're just talking from the money standpoint. He's probably like, do I need another place to go to where I'm unhappy and not work? I need to come into this situation, put my ego aside, fit in.

fix some things, tweak some things, work on maybe how quick I go, what shots I'm going to be, what spots they need me on the floor. What does Finchie need me to be? What does Tim Conley expect out of me? What are y'all bringing me here for? And try to tap into that instead of trying to go have a contract here. This is not set up for you to do that. This is not the Knicks. You're not going to just get the ball in the post every time. They're going to sit there and watch you do your five dribble. It's not how that's going to work here, bro. They got another guy that does that and he's better than you.

So, you know... Well, can I throw another scenario too off this scenario? He has a player option next year. Yeah. So, everyone's like, well, he's going to be a free agent. He's playing for a new contract. We were saying that about D'Angelo Russell last year, right? Right, right, right. Oh, yeah. Well, he's going to be... Guess what? Guess who exercised his player option? D'Angelo Russell. Yep. That $31 million for 2026 might be Randall's best option. And maybe...

you know, maybe this is a two year thing, not a one year thing. I think that would really screw them up from a tax salary cap standpoint. But regardless, RIP, the 2004 Detroit Pistons reincarnated in Minnesota. I think that I don't see a scenario where they're as good defensively as they look for a couple stretches there. There's another piece of this, though.

is, you know, Minnesota were built to beat Denver. Tim Connolly came in, he saw Denver, he had to build this super team to beat them and then they beat them. This is kind of a loss for Denver. Minnesota's like, we actually don't need to beat Denver anymore. We're more worried about OKC and Dallas and maybe Memphis and Denver's worse. And maybe we don't have to have a team that's just specifically built to beat Jokic.

Cause they're not the same team anymore. And I, the team they have now is a little better equipped to deal with like an OKC type of team and Dallas, a team that they got their asses kicked. So in a weird way, I feel like this was a loss for Denver, which is a strange thing to say, but, um, I just don't think they're as invincible. And I think this trade proves it. Minnesota's like, yeah, fuck it. We don't need to yoke at stoppers anymore. We're fine.

100%. Especially with the talent that, like you said, Denver's lost, KCP, Denver's lost, even guys like Jeff Green, Bruce Brown. A lot of these key assets that they've had, they've kind of let just trickle away. Javon Murray is a good player they've lost. I'm kidding. He's coming back. I'm buying the Murray stock. Yeah, come on. Let's reinvest in some Murray stock. The Olympics was, you could see he just kind of showed that. He literally just showed up. Like I had,

He hadn't touched a ball since they got out. It was not the Jamal that I know. But I still got some faith in him. Obviously, he had a good season last year. Weird ending. Playoffs was weird. But he's a big-time player. But like you said, they're not as invincible as they were. But OKC is now the bar. Oh, sure. Especially with Caruso adding. And then who's the other guy they got? Hartenstein. Hartenstein. I mean, that's huge, bro. And then Jalen Williams, year three.

Chet, year three. Jalen Williams, year four. I can't remember. Those guys are still early. All right, next question. Why didn't we realize this whole summer that a town's trade was inevitable? Like, I'm kind of mad at myself. And I think I've mentioned it on past podcasts that I felt like we're heading to this point. I think we're heading to it before the season. But all the ownership bullshit they had, all the tax shit that was coming, the fact that they had Nas on a good contract, I just feel like

I feel like we should have seen this one. The ownership stuff and complete disarray. I just, I wish I, I felt like he was always headed to the Knicks in my head because Leon was his agent. They have the Kentucky thing. But yet I was completely blindsided last night.

I just thought that this would happen in January if the Minnesota season was a little unhappy and the Knicks were falling apart without a center. But now I'm like, oh shit, of course they traded towns. Do you feel that way at all? Well, you see a successful run, conference finals run. The immediate thought, I think, is they're running it back. You know what I mean? They're this close. It was a weird series versus Dallas. Could have even been a matchup thing. Who knows if they would have matched up with someone differently next year. They could be in the finals.

they probably would have played Boston way better than Dallas did. You know what I mean? Sometimes it's just matching things, right? So to that point, you're just like, why wouldn't they run it back? So that was surprising. When I saw Carl and Teddy Towns, I did, I felt kind of on both sides of the fence because I felt the other way too. I'm like, they also have been putting his name out. His name has been in talks for a minute since the Gobert thing came about.

his value has gone down so much that everyone knew the guy to be traded was Carl. And everyone's like, it's just a matter of time when it's going to happen. Then we see the success and we're like, oh, well, they're not getting rid of him. They might write this out. But then you add the contract stuff into it. You had all the other points, Nas Reed, all these different things you add to it. We shouldn't be surprised, really. It was inevitable that he was going to get moved. For sure. Friday night as I'm having cocktails, I was a little surprised. Can you...

Can you walk me through your best case scenario for Towns in New York as somebody who's spent time with him and played with him? Let's say this goes awesome. This is like cloud in the sky. Holy shit. Almost like when the Celtics traded for Drew and Porzingis and then just everything worked out. What's the Towns version of that in New York?

Best case scenario is he gives himself to Tibbs. And I mean that in the sense where he buys in fully on what Tibbs needs him to do defensively. I'm not really worried about Carl offensively. He just knows how to put the ball in the basket, whether it's him shooting over guys and scoring in the post. Carl's going to score the ball. He's going to average 20 plus points per game because that's what he's done every single year he's been in the NBA. And he's going to do that next year no matter what team he plays on. He's too good of a shooter and too skilled of a player. It's the other stuff that we talked about.

And these are the quotes after a game, the quotes after the game, you know, the little things, all this other stuff with New York media and with Thibodeau as your coach, can he buy in and give himself to fit into that program? You got like Josh Hart and you got Mikkel Bridges and you got Brunson, all these Villanova, like there are certain type of guy that Thibodeau works well with and they have them over there.

took carl's not those things great guy but he's just different that is the concern best case scenario is he gives himself to tibbs you know he's locked in uh he's gonna have his little quotes and funny moments but it's all within realm of positivity and nothing that's a distraction he's shooting the ball at a high clip because that's what they're bringing him there for he's stretching the floor he's shooting the ball high so he starts out like 50 from three in the first six weeks of the season yeah

you remember like the first two weeks, Grant Williams and the Mavs, I couldn't miss. And everybody's like, this is the best. This is perfect. Yeah. Yeah. That, that is what they need. Too soon. Too soon for the Grant Williams. That age, that age very poorly. Uh, too soon. Too soon. Hashtag too soon. My bad. Uh,

Yeah, that's best case scenario. I think he works well with Tibbs first and foremost. Basketball-wise, take care of yourself. So you're talking about sacrifice. This is KG and Ray going to the Celtics with Pierce and Doctel and Ray. You're going to have five less shots this year. Sorry.

And also, let's be honest, man. Like, is he the best player or second best player? I know you say Brunson is, but like, I'm telling you, if you're Carl Towns, you're like, I'm an eight time all-star man. This guy's a one time, two time all-star. Like it's easy to do with Ant. Ant's like this exploding. You can't deny it. You know, he's like a top five, top 10 player in the NBA talent. This, this, this is the guy. Right.

Brunson has had a career year last year, but Carl might be thinking, I'm the guy here. I don't know. I don't know what's going through his mind. So this is your worst case scenario. I mean, the thing is, it's Brunson City. Brunson's dad is on the coaching staff. Yep. Brunson has these incredible relationships, and I'm sure through the agents, Brunson and Towns have probably known each other for a while. I almost want to bring conspiracy Bill in, but we're still workshopping it, but

Brunson giving up the money and then the town's trade happening a month and a half later and all the same agents. I'm like, hmm, something. There's definitely a little scent to that one, but conspiracy bill, we're not bringing them in. I'll just say this. Towns, I find just impossibly frustrating as a basketball fan. Really? And yet.

I do like him. Like I, I really do kind of weirdly root for him. And he's, he's become one of those athletes where you're like, just stay out of your own fucking way, man. Yeah. You're so talented. Just don't fuck this up. He's just turning into one of those guys. Yep. And that's what I'm saying is best case scenario. Stay out your own way, Carl. Do the little things.

Work on the defensive stuff. He's going to do things that's going to drive Tibbs and people crazy. But if the other stuff over clouds it, his performance on the offensive end, if he goes vertical at the rim, again, they need him to be a center now. The past couple of years, you haven't had to do the center work. Rudy's done all that. You get to float around, shoot your threes, offense. That is completely different from what you're about to get yourself into. Mitchell Robinson is hurt. God knows when. They never know with him. You are the center.

They need you to rebound and block shots and contest at the rim and be vertical without getting in foul trouble. These are some big, big tasks at hand. They have no shot blocking. They need you to do that, and he's notorious for fouling.

these aren't things that mix well. So it's like, that is best case scenario. He's able to figure out that formula where he's able to stay on the floor and be productive without getting in his own way. Like you said, that's best case scenario. I think he can do it though. I'm really hopeful. He's such a talented person, talented player. I just want to wish the best and be positive here, Bill.

I do too, but as a Celtic fan, I'm like, we might be better off with... Yeah, you don't want it to work. Yeah, well, it can work until they get to whatever round plays Celtics. How about your summer? You guys just don't do anything. You don't even have to. What are the luxury of a...

What the luxury of a Celtics fan right now. No need to go in the market, just run the hole. And somehow they're coming back pissed off. Continuity with a chip on our shoulders. Somehow, somehow both of your best players are pissed off. I mean, it's best case scenario for you. Well, you know, they did. And Missoula has been apparently in a good way, a maniac about no mention of the championship. I don't want to see hats. I don't want to see t-shirts. We're not, we're not,

We're not going to do like the, yeah, yeah, we won. Like we're moving forward. That season happened. It's over, which I think is how you have to do it. Like, let's go. Fuck it. Yeah. He's, he's, you know, does he wants to go back to back and the team's pissed off and they're in a pretty good spot. Here's my last question. So the Knicks, who we all liked, who we barely had all together. And it was like, this is really fun. I'm really enjoying this. And now that gets blown up. Philly's changed.

You know, the Lakers seem to change every couple of years. They don't really matter anymore. The Warriors are different. Minnesota was in the conference finals. They just changed that. Denver couldn't keep their team together. It's just teams are just different every year. Now the NBA has become 2K, which is not a new point. Yep. Do we like this? Do we like the fact that just like you mentioned how, oh my God, Boston didn't do anything. It's like, why do we have to do anything? Why does it have to be a situation where, you know,

It's just the season ends and you press the 2K reset button and, oh, I have new rosters this year. How did we end up with a league like this? Man, that's a great question, man. Good God. Where do I start? I don't know how much time we have. Is it the fact that the contracts aren't that long anymore or just... But the whole NBA as a whole shifted. You know, I talked about this briefly on my pod. Yeah. Where, you know...

the type of players that are playing in the NBA. I talked about the concern I have for the longevity in terms of where the game will be at with the, with the uprise of foreign basketball. I mean, how they're pushing guys out, the type of contracts, who's getting paid, what it's just a funny league, man. The AAU culture that you start with, begin with, and the DNA of my team didn't win. I'm now going to jump team. And now, and now with the NIL and the transfer portal, these kids don't have to stay loyal to nobody, but I went to,

practice coach k used to make me cry because he was talking to me so crazy but you have to figure shit out man you have to like break your spirit down you have to show like humility you have to get through stuff that's like part of like going to college and like playing for these teams right but if you go now and get yelled at the wrong way they got a kid making two million dollars man he's gonna look at you and be like bye like i don't even have to play here it's just it's different and it's way different than how they do it over there the style of play we're playing it's just

I think it all connects. And I think there's a copycat league. A lot of people try to copy somebody who's doing something really good because they're really good at it and think they can do the same thing and it ends up with bad products. Yeah. Two-way wing, shooting, stretch five. And it's like, bro, so now they're pushing out other good players for these type of guys, but that doesn't mean these type of guys can play. Everyone tried to do what Sam Presti does and rebuild and restart. Now we have just a bunch of bad teams who are still bad. It's like, not everybody's going to be able to do what Sam... Not everybody's Sam Presti or Tim Conley. So it's like...

We are in a weird state of the league right now. I don't understand what I'm looking at. I don't even know how to, I'm watching, I'm a journalist, man. I study, I'm a basketball junkie. I'm playing pickup this summer with all these guys. I'm just playing for fun. I'm already in the media stuff now. That's where I'm headed. I'm done playing for the most part. And I'm just out here just hooping for fun. And I'm playing against some of these guys. I'm just like, good God.

I was like, this is, who the hell is this dude? You know what I mean? Like, it's just a different league, man. I don't know who had these. So I don't know to answer that question. I don't know how it happened. I don't know when it happened. I think it's been over the past 10, 12 years. The league has drastically changed drastically. Who's in running teams now, you know, what type of hires, uh,

it's, it's, and I'm not saying I'm against it. I'm just saying that we are where we are. And I think we've turned into the no patients basketball association where the NPBA, and so you look at a team like Miami that hasn't really done anything and you don't really have to do everything in August. You don't have to do everything in September. You don't have to do everything in October. You can wait till you can watch a couple months and see it, but really nobody does that. And when they don't do it, you're like,

Loser of the summer, Miami. They didn't do anything. The Celtics, how are they, you know? And so it's this mindset of like, you had to have done something for something to have happened. But I just think the Knicks like going on the one hand, you could say, well, they're putting together all these assets. The Brunson thing worked out.

And they got into this situation now where they have... I have Towns as a top 35 player. I have Bridges and Ananobi as top 55 players. So those are three guys they didn't have two years ago. So this worked. The plan worked. But I also really liked watching that Knicks team last year. And there was ways to add to it without...

going pot committed on this thing and another pot committed. You know what I mean? 100%. They went full send. I mean, they decided to go. We all kind of liked what they were cooking and the spirit at which they played it in. The Knicks were a team that if you weren't from there, people just didn't want to even cheer for the Knicks. That wasn't the case. You had people like wanted this team to win. You know what I mean? Because they had like guys who played that basketball and besides like all that stuff, they were good.

and you had enough assets there where you're like, yo, they're only like, especially with Randall still being there, you don't have to do this now. Your team's going to be really good. Let's put them out there and find some stuff, see what works, see what we need. And then we got Randall here to move if we need to. They just do it right now, a week before training camp. And now this is where they're at. There's no backtracking out of this. You know what I mean? Especially with Carl's contract. This is the future here. It reminds me a little of when the Lakers did that Westbrook trade.

And I was against it and I went on my pod and I was like, this is, there's no going back now. This doesn't work. All of your doors are closed. Right. And what happened? It didn't work. All the doors are closed. I don't think the town thing has a chance to be as bad as Westbrook on the Lakers, but no, no, if it doesn't work that well, there's not a lot of options for this. There's not a lot of next moves.

It helps when you can shoot. At the end of the day, the one thing we know we're going to get out of Carl is that dude is going to be out there firing threes and knocking them down. He's just going to be doing it. He's just too talented. It's just going to happen. It's the other stuff that we talked about that we got to hope in this type of magnifying glass, which he's going to be under now, which he's not used to.

And just think every time we have done it, we've found stuff and laughed. Carl, you got to move differently now. You can't just get to the podium and start saying this is what movies are made of. Again, we find it funny. We love it. I love him. He's a great dude. But the New York people, they'll tear that shit up. It's brutal there. Talk to Julius. Talk to Mello. Talk to any of the top guys that have been there. Why do they like Brunson? He don't talk. He goes out there, he puts in work, and he shuts up. He don't say nothing.

The only time he talks on his pod. Right. He doesn't say anything except for his podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Now everyone has one. Even when he's on there, he's still very 50, 50. But now, you know what I mean? Yeah. Jalen's very Jalen. So it's like that is, you know, it'll be. By the way, we need we need to get Carl Anthony Towns on on your podcast. I did. I did one with him. No, I'm saying like New Nick, New York Nick. That would be that would be fantastic. A rerun would be great because I'm sure now he has a whole different

whole different perspective of stuff. Well, I bet he's, I bet he's upset. And I bet, I bet they're working on him really hard being like, we, we, you know, Leon and Wes and those guys, we really want you. We really want you. This is going to be great. The Jalen sending him texts, but I'm sure like, you know, I really did think he embraced the Minnesota thing and wanted to be there. Absolutely. He was asking for assurances over and over again. They weren't going to trade them. So I'm sure he's a little wounded by it. Um, all right. We hit everything on a Saturday.

On a Saturday, too. Commitment. Unbelievable. But this is the thing. We had a lot to say about this trade. Austin Rivers, great to see you. Listen to his podcast. Always. It's called Off Guard. And you're doing a great job. Good to see you. Appreciate you as always. Y'all be easy. All right. Thanks to Austin Rivers. Thanks, Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Steve Cerruti. Thanks to Gahal as well. And we will be coming back to you pretty shortly. Sunday night with Sal. Don't forget, that's live on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You'll also be able to find this podcast on the YouTube channel as well.

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