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He's the founder of The Man in the Mirror. Patrick Morley is our guest now on this edition of First Person. Welcome, I'm Wayne Shepherd. We'll begin the conversation with Pat in a moment.
Thanks for joining us once again this week. First Person is meant to introduce you to people who are following God's call on their life to serve Him with their unique gifts. We've done hundreds of interviews over the past number of years, and I hope you take a few moments to scan through the list at FirstPersonInterview.com and listen at your convenience. Once again, go to FirstPersonInterview.com. And we also have a smartphone app that's free. You can download it in your app store. Look for First Person Interview.
Now to our guest, Patrick Morley was a businessman who started a Bible study in 1986, and he'll tell the story momentarily, that led to what has become a premier men's ministry. Pat is the author of 22 books, the latest titled The Four Voices, which we'll talk about.
I reached him online at his home office and started by asking him if that first Bible study really started in a bar. It really did. So my wife and I were the host couple for Executive Ministries, part of a crew here in Orlando for about five years. And we had all these men and women coming to Jesus. And I said, gosh, we need a Bible study to help equip these guys for being better pastors
husbands, fathers, men, citizens, and so forth in our community. And so a friend of mine owned a restaurant, had a bar attached, and he said, well, I'll give you free coffee and free Danish if you want to use the bar. So I always used to kid the guys. It's great because if you've been out late the night before, you can just sleep over in one of the booths and be ready for the final stage. That's great. Well, tell me about the scope of the Man in the Mirror today. I mean, it's one of the premier men's groups.
Bible study groups and a group just encouraging men to live for Christ. So tell me what the scope of it is today.
Well, it's pretty broad. Uh, Wayne, thank you for having me on the show, by the way. I'm so honored to be with you. Uh, you're a legend in the business. And so it's just an honor to be with you. Thank you. Yeah. So yeah, man in the mirror, we work with thousands of churches. Uh, we've actually at least had one transaction with 35,000 churches all around the world. Uh, we've, uh, impacted, uh, the ones we've been able to count, uh, about 12 million men, uh,
We have an online Bible study that goes out weekly. The one that started in the bar, it's still going on. We distribute Christian literature. We have done, we do a thing called books by the box for people that want to distribute churches, books in the churches and so forth. Cases of 12 and 48 books. We have done over a thousand men's events in local churches. I,
I've written 22 books. Anyway, we have about 60 area directors in 23 states consulting with churches on how to disciple men more effectively. So, yeah, so it's a real broad base, but it's all men's discipleship. We're a one-trick pony. We can talk to you about anything you want to talk about as long as it's discipleship.
I understand. Of course, you're best known for your book, The Man in the Mirror, just a classic work, still very, very appropriate for men of all ages, as is your latest book, which we'll talk about here in a few moments, The Four Voices. But you just must be very, very glad to look back on how the Lord has led you and what has happened.
Yeah, so I was a businessman, and I was successful. The economy was good. That's why. I mean, it wasn't that I was so smart. The economy was really good, and so I was doing very well. And I looked around and said, you know, why? Why are you so miserable? I mean, you should be happy. And I thought there must be more life. There's really got to be. And that's when we really started the Bible study. I was already a believer. Okay.
I was sort of one of those guys who was reading the Bible with an agenda and
I would see a verse on the left-hand page that was going in the direction I wanted to go in anyway, and I'd say, I love that verse. I would underline it, sometimes memorize it. But then, Wayne, I'd see a verse over on the other page, the right-hand page, it seemed to veer off in a direction I didn't want to go, and I'd say, huh, I wonder why I put that one in there. And then I just sort of mentally, figuratively erase that one, smudge it off the page. Right.
Not much of a problem at the two or three year mark, but around the 10 year mark in my journey, I realized that I was not getting the same result from my faith that a lot of my friends were. And I created a fifth gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Pat. I was following the God that I was underlining in my Bible. The next step was that I called a timeout. I thought it'd last a couple of weeks.
I feel like I'm a pretty intelligent person. I get it all sorted out. But it was as though God said, well, now that I have your attention, there's some things I've been wanting to show you. And so I felt like I hit a wall of molasses for about two and a half years. I couldn't move left, right. I was just, I was reading the Bible and God took me right back down to the foundation. I was sitting around in the rubble of all that one day.
And a thought went through my mind. I think it's the greatest lesson I've ever learned. So let me share that with your listeners. This was the thought. There is a God we want, and there is a God who is. They are not the same God. And the turning point of our lives is when we stop seeking the God we want and start seeking the God who is. Does that make sense? Yes.
Yeah, it just dawned on me one day, you know, "Morty, what were you doing? What were you thinking? Did you really think that any amount of you wanting to reinvent God in your imagination to be the God that you wanted Him to be was going to have one iota of impact on His unchanging nature and character?" And I realized that I had been trying to change God. Oh, I think God must have changed me.
Well, that's a great story. I love hearing the backstory of how God has moved in someone's life like that. That's been your calling now for all these years. Let me ask this, Pat. What is different about men today? Is there anything different about men and men's ministry discipleship today than there was back in 86? Yes and no. So the no part of it is that the core affections of the human heart have not changed.
That's why a man who's 18 or a man who's 80 or anywhere in between can pick up the book of Ecclesiastes and feel like it's speaking right to his heart. That's why a man can read the Sermon on the Mount, then make a difference who he is. It will still speak to his heart, the core affections of his heart. So none of that has changed. And then I would even say that the primary felt needs changed.
of men have really not changed either. Men want to have a successful work or career. They're interested in how to be a godly husband and they're interested in how they can be an effective and godly father. And those are the pain points. Today, they were the pain points way back when I got started.
And that hasn't changed. The culture, of course, has shifted dramatically. And so the authority of the book, God has given us a book that we can refer to, a guidebook, a master plan, if you will. And it just seems that that is changing.
revered as it used to be. And therefore, it doesn't get the credibility with younger guys coming along. And so guys end up kind of making up their own religion a little bit. Even the believers, the culture shifted and the values of the culture changed.
do seem to want to penetrate or infiltrate into the church itself. Yeah, and it seems to me also that there are so many more distractions, or if you will, temptations available to men today than there ever have been in the past, even in the past 30, 40 years ago. I mean, it's changed dramatically, hasn't it? Well, it has. So your listeners...
Probably wouldn't know this, but you and I are actually Zooming on this, even though it's on the radio, right? But so you're looking at me and I'm Pat Morley. Listeners, I'm Pat Morley. And now I've just picked up my...
my smartphone, and now who am I? Well, I'm the smartest person in the world. Right, you've got everything at your fingertips, don't you? I literally can find out anything about anyone, anywhere, anytime, any place in the world. And that's good and bad. And it's good and bad, but it certainly has affected the way that men, especially younger men, are engaging with the world around them. I'd say, for example, pornography is one of the...
It's always been a problem. You know, new guys come along in ministry and they think that pornography is like this big new problem. No, it's not. But the access to it is exponentially greater. So what is the role of an older man to a younger man living in this day and age?
Well, that's fascinating because that is the primary focus of Man in the Mirror these days. In fact, you didn't know this, but we're just launching an initiative called 10,000 Spiritual Fathers. The idea, we hired a young man, 36 years of age, and started an R&D division of Man in the Mirror. It's called Mirror Labs. And so we've been researching how to more effectively engage 20- and 30-year-old men.
And we've kind of broken the code on that now and we're rolling out some new resources. But the main thing is, is that if you're an older man and you're listening to this broadcast, the wisdom and experience that you have when coupled with the passion and the strength of a younger man is a powerful thing. You already know that.
many of the things that younger men long to know, they ache to know. And here's the thing, if you're an older man, you can be a spiritual father to a younger guy. All you have to do is ask. I have never asked, and I've asked, I've invited literally over the years now thousands of men to meet one-on-one. That's my favorite thing to do. I have never had a younger man ever ask
say he didn't want to meet for a cup of coffee just to talk and to get to know each other. And then you can see what goes from there. And if you're a younger guy and you're listening to this, uh,
Be bold because older men, a lot of older men are reticent because they don't think that they will be accepted, you know, that they would be wanted. Let them know that you want the wisdom that they have. Have two or three questions prepared that you can ask an older guy and then take him to lunch or invite him out for a cup of coffee. Powerful little simple idea. We're meeting Patrick Morley of Man in the Mirror on First Person today. He'll talk about the four voices next.
I'm Ed Cannon. The Far East Broadcasting Company partners with First Person because we celebrate the stories of people everywhere who have given their lives to Christ and serve Him. Our broadcasters in 50 countries of the world hear stories every day of people whose lives are transformed by the gospel and who have
faithful we've been taught God's Word. In addition to First Person, I'm pleased that Wayne and I host a podcast, and we invite you to join us. Listen to Until All Have Heard at febc.org. That's febc.org.
My guest is Patrick Morley, who is Executive Chairman and the founder of The Man in the Mirror Ministries. His book, The Man in the Mirror, is a classic, as we've talked about. His latest book is The Four Voices, Taking Control of the Conversation in Your Head. So intuitive, this book, because we both know there is that conversation going on in our heads, isn't there, Patrick? And now you've identified these four voices, the world, the flesh, the devil, and the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we all know that we have a running conversation with ourselves all day long. We call that self-talk. We need self-talk. Self-talk is how we take the bits and pieces of our lives and fit them together into some sort of a congruent story that helps us make sense of things. So we need that. Here's the problem is that you, listener, you're not the only voice in that conversation.
There are these four other voices that Wayne has mentioned, the world, the flesh, the devil, and the Holy Spirit, and they are constantly exerting themselves to influence what you and I think, say, and do. And so our job, our task, our mission is to figure out which voice is speaking and then
take control of the conversation yeah and so that's why i wanted to write this book to show men uh first of all how they can distinguish the voices a lot of times we're talking over each other right so so what i did was in the book is i just said okay each of your voices i want you to go over to your corner world over to this other corner flesh go over to that corner devil stay there until i tell you can talk again and then i describe each one you know and uh and uh
and then how it works, give examples, and then what you can do about it in order to master that voice to control it. Well, I don't know if we'll have time in the few minutes we have together to talk about all four in depth. Let's talk about the world's voice in our life. I mean, we were talking about a few moments ago, the temptations are so greater today and the pressures and all that, all the information available to us and all the good and bad that comes with that. So talk to me about the world conversation in our head.
Yeah, well, so the Bible says, see to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on the basic principles and traditions of this world. And so when people hear the world, it's a little confusing. The Bible has a very specific meaning when it says world.
So, what is the world that's in the Bible? When the Bible talks about the world, it's talking about that world which has fallen, the part that's been corrupted. But it's not just the wild and crazy things, too. And I want to give you one subtle example. Okay.
of how the world works. When I was a young guy just getting out of college, I knew where I wanted to go to work. I met with the owner of the company and he said, well, you know, I think you have some promise, but the problem is you don't have enough gray hair. You're not old enough. I don't think this will work for you. And he wouldn't hire me. So the message was you're too young to make a difference. Hmm.
But then I have older guys tell me all the time that they're being told that you're not useful anymore. You're expendable. You've been used up. You don't have anything to offer. We don't want you anymore. Your time has passed. Yeah. Your time has passed. Right. Exactly. And so the world is saying you're too old to make a difference. Okay. Did you catch that? So the world is basically saying it doesn't make any difference whether you're young or you're old. You really can't make a difference. Right.
But the Bible has the exact opposite report. You look at Joseph, David, Jesus, they all began their careers and made these incredible contributions in their early 30s. And then you look at men like, and women too, you know, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Paul, all of those people, they played their best music in the last one third of their lives. So the Bible says the exact opposite. The Bible says it doesn't make any difference whether you're young,
or you're old, you can always make a significant difference. That's just one subtle way that the voice of the world gets... That's very interesting. I like to tell men that and remind men that their most influential time of life is going to be in their latter 50s and 60s and maybe in their 70s. Do you agree?
I do agree. I do agree. The vitality of a man is in his 20s and 30s. The impact of a man is in his 40s and 50s. And the wisdom of a man giving back to the next generation's 60s, 70s, and even into the 80s. Yeah, yeah. How does the voice of the flesh differ from the voice of the world?
Well, the voice of the flesh is that part of us that has been corrupted by our sin nature. The flesh and the sinful nature are actually synonyms. They're the same word in the Bible. So some people might have heard of the sinful nature. It's something that is normative for all Christians, even though we have Jesus and we have the Holy Spirit. It's like a
When we become a Christian, it's like cutting a piece of string in half. We got rid of half of that sinful nature, but half of it's still in there. And then as we grow, we keep cutting it in half again. It keeps getting smaller. But Paul himself, who wrote one third of the New Testament, he said, look, I don't understand what I do. The good I want to do, I don't do. And the bad things I don't want to do. These things I keep on doing.
And so the flesh is something that is within us. It is the sinful nature. It's because of the fall. The fall is an offense to human reason, but once understood, it makes perfect sense of the human condition. Then, of course, we have the voice of the man himself, the devil, who is our archenemy. He's roaming around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour.
Yeah. So, yeah, we're talking about these, but I do want to make sure everybody understands about half of the book is really about the Holy Spirit and cultivating that voice. The devil is very fascinating because a lot of people think that the devil is a social construct or a figment of our imaginations, but Jesus is.
There are about 90 references to the devil or Satan in the Bible. And 25%, a full fourth of those references come from the lips of Jesus. Jesus identified that the devil is a real being, a real entity.
But the Bible gives two narratives about the devil. The first narrative, we get to make fun of it. He's a washed up angel with a lot of nicknames. He doesn't really have any power except that which God would allow him
to have his, he can't make you sin. People say the devil made me do it. That's not true. The devil can't make you do anything. His power is limited to deception. He's called the deceiver in the Bible. He's this cussing parrot up on your shoulder. He's a little flea. He's a tick. You can flick him off anytime you want. Just say, shut up. You talk too much. Talk...
actually talk about how you actually can do all that in the book. But the second narrative, we need to take the devil seriously because in the second narrative, we see that he is the CEO of sin. Father of lies. Yeah, he's the father of lies. And so his native language is lies. That's his native tongue. And he can do a lot of destruction and he's trying to destroy what God is trying to build.
But I think his main accomplishment has probably been to exaggerate the amount of influence that he has on us. And I show readers how that happens. Well, you're absolutely right. I didn't give enough due to the Holy Spirit. So let's take our last minute or so together here. The good news is you do in the book, as you said. There's a lot to be said about the voice of the Holy Spirit and listening for that voice in our life. So I urge our listeners to read the four voices. But just...
Get us going on the thought of listening to the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so the Holy Spirit is the solution, right? So we live in a lake, and I look out the window, and we have an eagle that lives on the other side of the lake. And I look out the window, and I see a big bird fly by, and I say, is that the eagle? Is that the eagle? No, no, it's an osprey. Another day, I look out the window, and I see this big bird, and I say,
is that the eagle? Nah, it's an osprey. Then one day I look out the window and I say, oh my gosh, it's the eagle. When the eagle shows up, you don't have to ask if it's an eagle. And that's the voice of the Holy Spirit. As one of my co-teachers says, he says, if it doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit, guess what? It's not him. So the voice of the Spirit is profound. But here's the thing. A lot of Christians really don't
have a good understanding of the Holy Spirit. The Father, yes, because there's an analogy they can relate to. Jesus, yes, he was a real person. They can relate to that. But the Holy Spirit, what's the Holy Spirit? Well, it's not an it. The Holy Spirit is a he. And so what I talk about in the book is how you can understand Jesus
who He is, and then you understand how to appropriate the power of the Holy Spirit, actually turn on the Holy Spirit, and to be able to sensitize yourself to His voice.
Well, there is much more in Patrick Morley's newest book, The Four Voices, and we'll place a link to the book at FirstPersonInterview.com. My thanks to Pat for taking time to join us on this edition of First Person. Our website has an audio archive of our past interviews, which you can stream anytime, or download our smartphone app to listen to interviews and take them with you on the go.
One more thing, as the war in Ukraine continues, the Far East Broadcasting Company remains on the air in that country, offering spiritual encouragement and counseling. To learn more about FEBC Radio in Ukraine at this time in history, please visit febc.org. Look for videos and our weekly podcast called Until All Have Heard at febc.org. Now, with thanks to my friend and producer Joe Carlson, I'm Wayne Shepherd. Join us next time for First Person.
