Terri Cole on Breaking Free From High-Functioning Codependency EP 520
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Let's go out there and become passion struck. Hey, passion struck fam. Welcome back to episode 520 of the passion struck podcast. I am so grateful for your continued energy, passion, and commitment to living a more intentional life week after week, you show up ready to elevate your life. And that's what makes this community so powerful.

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directly to your life. Head over to passionstruck.com slash newsletter and start living with more intention today. And if you're wondering where to begin with the podcast, we've made it super easy with our episode starter packs. With over 500 episodes, it can be overwhelming to know where to start. So we've curated playlists based on themes like leadership, mental health, and personal growth. Check them out on Spotify or visit passionstruck.com slash starter packs to dive in. Now onto today's episode.

I am so excited to welcome back my good friend, Terri Cole, who you may remember from episode 287, where we discussed how to create healthy boundaries. You loved that episode, so we knew we had to bring Terri back for another deep dive, this time to talk about her new book, Too Much, a guide to breaking the cycle of high function and codependency. In today's conversation, we're going to explore why so many of us feel compelled to do it all.

In today's conversation, we're going to explore why so many of us feel compelled to do it all, what drives these over-giving behaviors, and how we can begin taking steps towards recovery and lasting freedom. Terry has spent over two decades working with everyone from celebrities to Fortune 500 CEOs, helping them break free from the cycle of high-functioning codependency, where individuals, though highly capable, struggle with over-accommodating to them.

of burnout terry's unique approach blends practical psychology with eastern mindfulness practices making her strategies not just accessible but deeply transformative if you've ever felt overwhelmed by constantly being the one to handle everything or found it difficult to say no this is the episode for you terry will help us to recognize the signs

of high function and codependency, break the cycle, and reclaim our time, energy, and sense of self. And if you love this episode or any of those others we mentioned, we would so appreciate you giving it a five-star rating and review. Now, thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin. ♪

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No, the cat sits on the mat nonsense. Just practical conversation skills for real life situations. I've been using Babbel to brush up on my Spanish. And while I don't have any Spanish speaking relatives to impress, I am excited to try it out on my next trip. No more relying on Google Translate to order food.

Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for Passion Struck with John R. Miles listeners at babbel.com slash passion. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash passion, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash passion. Rules and restrictions may apply. I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back on the show, my friend, the one and only Terry Cole. Hey, Terry.

Hey, John. Thanks for having me back. We had such an amazing conversation in episode 287. For those who want to tune back and hear that, we were talking about creating healthy boundaries and inner peace. And it was such a popular episode that when I heard you had another book coming out, I was so thrilled to have you back on. What's transpired in your work and personal life since that episode about a year and a half ago? What's interesting is that

From Boundary Boss, the first book, all the feedback, getting all this feedback, I wrote one chapter on high functioning codependency, which is a concept that I originated and trademarked. And that's what this book is about. But I only had one chapter about it in the first book.

And it was unanimous that people were like, oh my God, I need more information about this. I feel like I am this. I never thought it was codependent. It was all of this feedback. And I always thought,

We needed another book on codependency because, you know, the seminal text that's been out there for years, Codependent No More, Melody Beatty, is very addiction oriented. So a lot of people have the idea that the only way you can be codependent is if you're enabling an alcoholic or an addict, which is not true. So that's really how it came about. And

Also, John, I could say you teach what you most need to learn. So I can conclusively say that I am a recovering high-functioning codependent at this point in my life, but clearly it was a relational pattern that I had that caused a lot of pain in my life before I figured out what it was. Well, this begs the question for me. First, how did you come up with the name Too Much for the book?

If you think about how I came up with it, I liked it because it could mean different things to different people. Some people, women in particular, are like, I love the name because when I was younger, people would always tell me I was too much. You know what I mean? So they identify with it that way. Well, what it really came from for me is that when you are a high functioning codependency, you are unique.

doing too much, feeling too much, managing too much, trying to control too much. It's just all too much. So that's why I named it too much. Okay. And the second question is you brought up this term that you trademarked, which is high functioning codependency. How does that differ from traditional ideas about codependency? Well, let's start with, I'll give you my definition of codependency, right? It's when you are

overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, circumstances, the situations, the finances, the relationships of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So with that codependency, with my therapy clients, they would be talking to me about something and I would point out, oh, that's a codependent relational

pattern that you're describing. And immediately at the word codependent, they will be like, no, that is definitely not me because I had very capable, high functioning women in particular in my practice. Then they were like dependent. I'm not dependent on squat. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm making all the decisions. I'm managing all the people. I'm making sure everything gets done. What are you talking about? And what I realized is that my clients

didn't know what codependency was and that they were highly influenced by the old school definition where they did not see themselves. And this was my own personal flavor, by the way, of codependency in my life as well, where a lot of times we have this image, if we think of someone who's codependent as like a weak-willed, long-suffering woman waiting for her alcoholic man or debtor medical, we have this vision

of that codependency equals weakness, or it's not true at all. It's really about boundaries. It's about disordered or healthy boundaries, but it is about doing too much. So what I did with my clients, I needed them to see themselves

in the actual problem that they had. And so I coined the phrase high functioning codependency because that is what I saw in my practice. And that is what I was in my 20s and early 30s. And as soon as I changed the moment, or not to quote Taylor Swift, but I will, they were like, me, it's me. I'm the problem. It's me. They were able to, without shame, say, wow, that is me.

Well, since you brought your own personal experiences up, because I really think we are best positioned to serve the person we once were, which is exactly what you're saying. You open up the book by sharing a story about bringing a stranger home named Billy because you felt compelled to help him. How did this moment and others like it in your life shape your understanding of, I'm just going to abbreviate it, HFC? The story itself, and I think that listeners can identify with this, is

seeing someone in need and feeling very compelled to help them. So this was a kid who was standing on a train platform. I was going from Long Island to Manhattan.

I was like, it was 1030 at night already. And he was probably 19 and I was probably 22. But to me, he seemed very young and he's holding a little blanket. And I'm like, what in the hell, what is going on? My helper radar was like, what is happening over here? And I talked, I started chatting him up on the train. And I said, where are you going? And I said, why do you have a blanket? He said, oh, I was, I was supposed to be driving a car back to Indiana. And then the gig got canceled. I go, so where are you going? He goes, I'm just going to go to the station. I'm like, what station?

And he said, Penn Station. I was like, no, you're not, buddy. He said, I'm going to sleep in the station. I was like, have you been there? He was like, no. I go, you can't, you're going to get mugged. You can't sleep in Penn Station. He said, well, I don't know anybody in New York. I go, yeah, you do. You know me. You're coming home with me. It's so. And that was how I came to bring a perfect stranger home to my studio apartment that I shared with a girlfriend. Decided like I was just bringing home the psycho killer to kill me, where I was also endangering my friend, potentially.

So this over-responsibility, even for strangers, this is a unique element of HFCs. And not all are like this. The more extroverted kind, which is the kind I am, feel not just overly responsible for the people you love and your siblings and your partner and your grown kids and all the things. It could be Billy on a perfect stranger on a train platform. So all these experiences in my life

made me realize that she would, as I got into therapy, right, in my 20s and really started digging in because there was that whole other situation in my 20s that happened similar where I met someone at a rape crisis training weekend. She was in an abusive relationship and I was begging her to leave. Like you have to, I didn't even know it. That was like 12 hours in. I was like, you have to get out of this marriage. It's terrible. And then she called me and said, can I come just stay with you for a night? Because I did it, Terry. You convinced me to leave

And then she came to my another studio, different studio apartment with her dog and fixed bags. And I took on this woman's thing. The rest of the story is in the book. But the point is, when we are prioritizing the wants, needs, desires of other people or other people's circumstances over our own well-being, there's something dysfunctional.

in that and it might the compulsiveness because that's what it's about like people will push back John online people will be like maybe I'm just really nice maybe I'm just like Mother Teresa like that and I'm like here's the thing if we can't not do it is not you being nice it is a compulsion just like any other compulsion where the other this person being in a situation made you as an HFC feel some kind of way that you did not like

And you want to not feel that way. And so what we do is immediately take action to fix the problem. Well, this begs the question, how do you even start asking yourself, is this even my problem to solve when helping others like Billy? Why do you feel so many of us feel like we need to take on other people's problems? And what are some of the practical takeaways there?

on how a listener could learn to pause and assess whether a situation is truly theirs to fix. Yes. Well, let's start with, if it's okay with you, I feel like it could be helpful to start with, what are the traits of being an HXC so that people can go, yes, I have that, or no, I don't. And we'll talk about behaviors, and then I'll get into how you can change it.

I think that sounds great. Yep. Okay, good. All right, so feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems. All right, we already hit that one. Giving till it hurts, right? Going above and beyond, even when you're not asked to. A lot of times we end up being the boundary tramplers inadvertently.

We think we're helping, but we don't even ask the person. Well, you seemed tired last night, so I just dropped by with a cup of coffee. I didn't call to see if it was okay with you. It's just I wanted to help, so I did it. Always ready to jump into damage control, being judgmental about others because as HFCs, we really are

Highly capable. That is the irony of the HFC condition, that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency, as I say. But we're a little judgmental because we have this grade A advice that we're always joiling out because we are these auto advice givers. And we can be mad when people don't take it, if you're frustrated, when they have the same problem, even though we're like, I had your solution. I don't know why you're not doing it.

Another trait is feeling exhausted, feeling resentful, feeling underappreciated, maybe feeling a little bit bitter in your relationships from overgiving and overdoing. And another trait is not really having respect for other people's right to be self-determined or separate. This is really the codependent part where your feelings are impacting my feelings and

So I want to fix your feelings rather than respecting that you have a right to have your feelings. Everyone has the right to succeed and fail, to thrive and to fail in life. This is how we learn. This is how we do it. It's not a simulation. We're actually doing it right now in real time. But when you're in HFC view and codependency in general, at its core, there is a covert or overt bid to control other people's outcomes.

Like we don't know, to go back to your question, is this even my problem to fix? Because instead of having a clarity of what is on my side of the street, I think I'm responsible for the whole neighborhood. So those are good traits, which we can talk about if you want. If not, I'll go into the behaviors. I want to ask you about this trait because these traits, because for those who might not be familiar with YouSpent,

Years earlier in your career, working with a diverse range of clients, from celebrities to CEOs, even stay-at-home parents. And many of those, especially the CEOs and the celebrities, show up in their lives as high achievers. When you look at these traits, is high achieving codependency more prevalent in high achievers? And does it mask itself in some way? Actually, it's a great question and it's true. So

high functioning codependency, there is a tendency for that clientele to be high achievers, to be highly capable. It's not mandatory, right? Because once I'm going to get into this behavioral list, if you see yourself there, whether you're successful in business or not, if you have the behaviors, I think we can conclusively say you're an HFC. But I do see them a lot going hand in hand.

Because part of the problem when you're HFC is like, we're checking in on everyone else, but no one thinks to check in on us. Because as my clients would say to me when they were denying being codependent, they're like, everyone counts on me. I'm the rock in my family of origin. I'm the one in my friend group who's always making sure that we, you know, rent the Airbnb in time or I'm tallying up the dinner, the dinner receipts or whatever it is. So,

The capability, that's what the mask is. And this is why so many people couldn't see it because there's the myths about codependency

run really deep people think it only can happen to women it only happens in romantic relationships only weak people are codependent like it is obviously it's nothing to do with weak and strong but that's the myth and I think that people don't like to be associated with those they don't experience themselves as weak especially the women in my practice and me too

I was always fierce. So if you had told me 20 years ago, I was good opinion, I would have said, no, that's like ridiculous. I'm not, but I was. And I think that with the behaviors, again, I get a lot of pushback when we start talking about behaviors because people again go, like, what's the problem with wanting to be a helper? So one of the first behaviors is the auto-advice giving, which is giving unsolicited advice.

And listen, this is not just a gender thing. Obviously, I wrote this book in some respects through the lens of being a woman and working with women in particular, people who identify that way. But I already have so many men saying, I'm an HFC. I identify with this too. Especially men with the auto advice giving, right? Because a lot of times it feels like that's your role is to be a fixer for people, right? You're the, that's what people want. Being overly self-sacrificing

is another thing where as HFCs, we're always willing to take one for the team. Someone always needs something more than we do. So, and what's really happening is we want to avoid conflict.

So instead of negotiating for ourselves, we go, it's no big deal. I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't want to, it's fine. I can do it. Oh, the car is broken. You take the other car. I'll get the Uber. Don't, I'll handle it. It's fine. So that brings us into the next one, which is auto accommodating. And auto accommodating, meaning you see a need and you just wrap yourself around what that need is. You see a need and you have a compulsion to respond.

Fix it. We can auto-accommodate on a plane because we see people who want to sit together. We can auto-accommodate anywhere. How I actually, how it struck me years ago about the auto-accommodating that even though I was in recovery from HFC, this is, you're never going to be cured.

The best we can do is just like any other addiction is to get into recovery, which means we can change our behavior. So I was getting my hair done at my very busy salon in Manhattan and I was laying in the sink and I have a mask on my hair. And now the sink line is getting long. And the longer the sink line is getting, the more my anxiety is like shooting through the roof. I don't need to be taken up the sink. I could move. I should tell the girl that I'm moving. I'll sit. So I raise my hand to have her come over.

Yeah, we're good, lady. Don't worry about it. Here's me literally trying to control their sync flow. What is wrong with me? And when you think about HFC, being a high-functioning codependent also means you have this high antenna. We are codependently dialed into our surroundings as well as people. So that was an environment situation that instead of sitting there meditating, listening to a podcast, resting my entire brain,

calling my mother. There was a million things I could have been doing that would have been nourishing to me. But instead, I was trying to control the sink flow at my salon. And I knew it. I was like, if I'm still doing this crap after all these years of therapy, I'm definitely not alone. And I put out something on that and it went viral. It was like, I don't know, 147,000 views in 28 days where people were like, oh my God, this is me everywhere. This is me all the time.

So after auto-accommodating, we have anticipatory planning where you know you're going to be with, let's say, someone who's difficult or family members or people who don't like each other. You know, you're anticipating all the crap that could go along and doing everything that you can preemptively to control that it doesn't go wrong, which is also exhausting because a lot of times those scenarios don't even come into play. And then you have over-functioning and this can create an over- and under-functioning dynamic.

in your relationships. I used to say in my twenties, I had this very special skill that I could turn a completely normally functioning man into an under-functioner in two weeks or less, where I was like, I got it. Whatever the thing was, make the reservation. I got it. Yeah, no worries. I got it. Which as my mother would tell you, if you continue to do everything and you need it to be done in particular way, oh, you'll continue to do it, but you'll be doing all the things and you'll be doing them by yourself.

Because people just stop offering when you never accept and allow help. This episode is brought to you by AARP. 18 years from tonight, Grant Gill will become a comedy legend. When he totally kills it at his improv class's graduation performance, knees will be slapped.

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Well, I think it's so important to go through those behaviors. And I wanted to touch on one misconception that I don't think you talked about. And earlier in the year, I was having a conversation with Gabby Bernstein and we were talking about addiction. And oftentimes when we think of addiction, we think of drug or alcohol addiction, but you could be addicted to work. You could be addicted to sex. You could be addicted to a relationship.

And I think one of the biggest misconceptions of codependency is that it only occurs in relationships with someone with an addiction. Why do you think that myth persists? And how does codependency really show up in other types of relationships? Okay, so I think that it persists because the truth is the people who really found it

this concept of codependency were all from the addiction world. They were all from this area of Minnesota. There was like 10 of these very well-known people at the time, and they were really all dealing with people with addiction issues. So it's hard to get it out of that mindset because it was so deeply rooted in that world, which actually I break down the whole process of how that went down in the book.

So I think that's why. And I also think that there is not a book like this out there now. I mean, never is, but there hasn't been. And so if you have the seminal text around the concept of codependency written by someone who was an addiction counselor and someone who was in recovery themselves and deeply rooted in that world, then that's the text that stands, which is why I knew there was another book

book that needed to be written for people who are not, you don't have to be any addiction. And this, you can be a full-blown high-functioning codependent without having no addiction issues. So to get back to your question about how does it present in real life in other types of relationships? So what we're really looking at is an over and under functioning dynamic

Think about in a relationship where the person who is, they're both codependent in some way, but I look at the person who's doing the over-functioning as more of the active codependent who's leading it. So that is someone who is doing more, doing things for the other person that they can and should be doing for themselves. Anticipating someone's needs.

doing things that create what is called unhealthy helping. And PhD Sean Burns coined that phrase. And it's like, instead of having the way that you're interacting with the person, create more mutuality or interdependency, right? Which is what we want, and certainly in romantic relationships and friendships too, it's creating codependency, right? Am I creating a healthy dependency or an unhealthy dependency in my behavior? So if, let's give an example.

Someone has a 40-year-old adult son who is bad with managing money. And every month they transfer money into their adult son's checking account so that they don't bounce their run check. That's fiscal codependency because the help that the

parent is given to the adult child is not helping the adult child manage their own crap. The parent's not going to be around forever. It's the 40-year-old's job to figure out their fiscal mess or whatever it is, understand why am I still doing this? So with codependency, we are really robbing the other person, right? Their autonomy and their sovereignty. But this can happen in family relationships. It can happen. It happens all the time with children.

Right? Young kids and bigger kids. Because if you are saving your children, quote unquote, if you don't want them to feel one moment of distress in life and you march down to that school and you tell that, whatever, the helicopter parents who get involved with their kids, friendships who are... The real thing, John, that is so painful about this reckoning with having...

being a high-function codependent, is that for me, I really thought, not that it was mother truth, I didn't think that, but I really did think my actions were rooted in love and kindness. And what really ends up being revealed is that when it's a compulsion, what I was really doing so much of the time is that someone has a problem and we center ourselves and our grade A advice as the solution that they need.

So what do we do instead, right? What can we do instead of auto-advice giving? Well, you can ask expansive questions, right? If your friend comes to you and says, John, I'm going to get a divorce. I think I have to get a divorce. I'm exhausted. I'm sick of this crap. I want to get a divorce. Instead of you saying, don't get a divorce, or yes, I never liked her, please do. Instead of you giving your opinion, you saying, sir, tell me, why do you think you want to get a divorce? What happened?

When someone comes to me for advice, which of course, obviously as an HFC, I became a therapist so I could give people advice all freaking day. I mean, not really, but we choose professions where it's always part of what you do. The first thing, even when they want my opinion, is for me, what I say is, hey, before I say anything, I want to know what your gut instinct says about this. If you did know, what would it be? Because here's the thing, nobody knows more than you.

what you should do in your life. And even if you don't know right now, it will come to you. And I'm here with you in the foxhole, not trying to fix you, not treating you like you're a project of mine that I could fix so that I could get on with my day and not be stressed out about your stress, which is what it is. I can't tolerate your feelings. I'm going to fix you so that my feelings are the way I want them to be. Everything running smoothly.

One of the things I picked up as I was going through the book was this whole concept of narcissism that's tied into HFCs. And why is it that those who are HFC are drawn to narcissists? What's the root cause of this attraction and how can people break this cycle?

It's a great question because it's such a painful trap to get snared in. And it is very hard to extricate yourself. And of course you can. But why the irresistible, this productive pairing between the HFC and the narcissist? Because a narcissist says...

This is all going to be about me, babe. This is all about me. And the HFC says, great. Can't wait to make it all about you. I will move heaven and earth to get your needs met because that's what makes me feel comfortable. You're happy, but it only lasts for so long. Sooner or later, the cycle becomes too much, but it makes sense. It's like a perfect hand in glove.

And you have to be aware of what is being provoked in you. If you are this uber caregiver, if you are this hyper helper, so to speak, if you're the person who always gets things done, you're so efficient. The narcissist loves it. You're getting things done for them. You're focusing on their life. You're focusing on what they want and their feelings. And while they're pleased with you, that works great for everybody.

But they won't stay pleased with you because that's the nature of narcissism. If they really are have narcissistic personality disorder, that they will need more supply. And how they get supply is through provoking you to have any kind of feelings, but mostly upset feelings, right? There's a power in that for them. So you go through the cycle.

Everything is amazing. And then something happens and then it starts going away. And then there's the discard of the cycle where usually they either they're always threatening to end the relationship or they actually do end the relationship. And then sometimes take up with your sister or I mean, like if it's just so bad, but you can heal from it yourself. Right. But we have to get out of those because you really when you're talking about a narcissistic relationship job, we're talking about an abusive at the very least and emotionally abusive.

abusive relationship. Absolutely. I think there's also some correlation between narcissists and high achievers in some sense. Oh, absolutely. I mean, statistics tell us, you know, that so much of the time, narcissists, the internet would make you think narcissists were super easy to point out. I'm going to say not true in that if you spend time with someone, yes, but

You can have a parent who's a narcissist and your friends are like, oh my God, man, you're so lucky. Your mom is so cool. You're like, not really. Not cool to me. Why does my mother want to be friends with my friends? Why is my mother flirting with my boyfriend when I'm 16? Why does my mother want to wear white?

to my wedding. That's Ida Klein, her narcissistic mother was insisting that she was going to wear white to her daughter's wedding. Wow. Just the low, as low as you can go. But again, from the outside, there's no sign on someone's back that says I'm a narc, right? That's not there. So I think that we want to be aware, your question wounds, either how can people get out of these relationships, but even better, how can we spot them before we get trapped?

And I think that one really good way of doing it is first of all, the low down.

Because if you are with a narcissist, they are going to be accelerating the crap out of that romantic timeline. They're going to be talking to you. It'll be date three. They'll be talking about taking a vacation in a year from now with you. All this future pacing to make you go, oh my gosh, they're really serious about it. They really mean it. While they're love bombing the crap out of you, which is telling you how amazing you are. Sex is awesome. Amazing gifts are sweeping you off your feet. That's the beginning.

And that's the part that people get addicted to because it feels so good until it doesn't. So my thought is the timeline needs to be at your pleasure. You have to decide. If you have plans with your friends, don't change your plan. If you want to push back to see

how this person is who seems so, so wonderful. And they make a plan for Friday night and you say, hey, you know what? I know you made reservations for Italian, but I really would like Japanese Friday nights. Let's see if their thin ego can tolerate that. And my professional guess is going to be that they're going to be so pissed that you are messing up their perfect plan that they had, that how entitled you are, how ungrateful you are. They may be able to hide it in the beginning, but they won't be able to

So part of it is, if it feels too good to be true, it is. And if someone in two weeks is talking about moving in with you, put the brakes on, is what I say, because they will reveal themselves. If you push back up against them at all, they will reveal themselves.

But you have to know in Boundary Boss, they will have a whole entire chapter on the manipulation tactics of boundary destroyers, I call them. And that includes narcissistic personality disorder and any other question of personality disorder, where all the manipulation tactics of faux concern, gaslighting, where they'll be like, John, I'm really worried about you. And I wasn't going to say anything, but Bob also said he thinks you're going off the rails.

planting these seeds of doubt. I mean, it's really scary to be involved with someone like that. So trust your gut instinct. And the real key is to slow down. Because if you slow it down, they are love bombing you and a narcissist, they're going to be pissed and it's going to be obvious. So at your pleasure, you decide how quickly you go, whether it's sexually, whether it's emotionally, I mean, it's how sweet you want to see this person.

Terry, I didn't even know if you knew this. I'm glad you brought up the Boundary Destroyer because it was one of my favorite chapters of that last book. I liked it so much.

that I actually incorporated you and that concept into my own book. I have this chapter that I call the mosquito auditor. And I talk about, you've got to identify different mosquitoes who are invisible influences, which is something that you talk about in boundary boss, those influences who consciously or unconsciously are disrupting your flow through life. And the

The first one I identify is the bloodsucker who is really that boundary destroyer. So I love that concept. And another thing that I loved about your first book that you're bringing into this one is exploring blueprints. In Boundary Boss, you called it boundary blueprints, but you're also doing the same thing in this book. And I'm going to introduce this question this way.

In the book, you introduce a quote by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst Carl Jung, who said, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And what you write about this is what we remain unaware of can most definitely hurt us and impact the trajectory of our lives. So if you don't have this HFC blueprint,

which is basically an architecture, how does, I guess I'll ask it this way. How does creating, what is this blueprint and how does creating this architecture help you to get over the deeply ingrained beliefs, values, ideas, behaviors that are based on everything from our childhood experiences to culture, religion, community, gender, race, et cetera? Mm-hmm.

Well, part of it is this is a relational blueprint, right? I had a certain bunch of concepts that I created in my 27-year career that are like core concepts. Now, we're using this concept of blueprint, but we're seeing it through the lens of relational patterns and issues. So we learned this from childhood. We looked at the adults in our life and how they related, right? So what we're actually doing when we are uncovering

your relational blueprint. It's already there, right? It's in your unconscious mind. What we're doing through the process and questions that I'm providing for you and the sort of looking back to look forward is letting you see, oh,

This is where I learned that to be a good wife or partner, I must be completely self-sacrificed. We start seeing the things that make sense. You have to understand what your beliefs are currently, which requires us to bring them from the basement, the unconscious mind, to the main part of the house, the conscious mind. Then we can actually change them. So we're changing our blueprints by becoming

aware of why we relate in our relationships platonic professional and otherwise the way that we do so that's really what the blueprint will do for you you answer the questions and then you get clarity like oh my gosh I did not realize I was repeating my parents relationship here or that I saw this and that's why I'm doing it or my culture taught me that this was the right way to be if we look at women in particular

There's this whole self-sacrificial thing that is really celebrated in our society, right? If like Betty is someone who would give the shirt off her back to anybody, they're like, you'd love her. I'm like, would I? Or would I think that Betty should keep her frigging shirt on? That's probably what I think because not everyone deserves that. And that level of self-sacrificing isn't healthy.

So that's where the blueprint comes in. You answer a bunch of questions, get clarity on how you're relating now, then we can consciously choose to relate differently. So I just have to bring up one of your heroes because what you were just talking about is what Dr. Harriet Lerner calls an emotional service station, which I had never really heard that term before, but I love it. And what it really means is what you were describing is

You become this person that everyone in your life comes to you, you fill them up with all this goodness and energy, and then you keep rinse, repeat, do it again, but you're not getting it back from anyone. And the thing that I liked when you were talking about this is that if a person is in this cycle, they need to do a radical, and I love this term, radical move to break the cycle. What...

Are some initial steps a person who finds themselves in that cycle can do to break that cycle? I think the first one is to not beat yourself up if you discover this about yourself. Really get radically curious, speaking of being radical, about why you lie this way.

that your heart is in the right place and that you can make next right action. Then the next right action is how are we going to change this thing? So first of all, start with having lots of self-compassion. We want to start looking at the self-consideration in our life. That's almost a whole chapter that I'm writing about, which I call it self-consideration because I think it's different.

than self-love, which I feel like is just used to death on the interwebs and no one even knows what it means. And self-care just sounds like a mani-pedi where self-consideration is really us not automatically saying yes or jumping in to all these situations that we insert ourselves into. Self-consideration is us slowing down and saying, do I have the bandwidth to help John with his projects?

Let me think about it. Telling you, I need to think about it. Getting back to you and saying, you know what? I actually don't have the bandwidth to help you with it, but I'd be happy to read it when you're done and give you my two cents then or whatever it is. But most of the time when you're in HFC, you're just doing it. So what you have to do is raise your awareness about your specific behaviors. And how do we know where our behaviors need to change? Well, you can do a resentment inventory.

Where you're really looking at, who am I going to stop at in my life? Who do I feel underappreciated by? Who do I feel a little taken advantage of? That's usually where you're overpopulating. Whether they've asked you to or not. Sometimes people do, sometimes they don't. We need to set better boundaries. Set limits with people. Allow yourself to not give anyone an automatic yes to anything. You have a right to think about it.

how you feel. And not wanting to do something is honestly a completely legitimate reason not to do it. You have to think about other people's lives. Mel Robbins has this great thing that she talks about. It's called let them. And my take on it is slightly different, but it's when you think about wanting to control your adult child's life,

You have to, in your mind, say, let them do what they're going to do. Let them live. Now, it's an illusion of control that you're, quote, unquote, letting them because reality check is you're actually not. But there's like a relief to your nervous system. What you're really saying is that isn't my situation. I'm going to get back on my own side of the street. I'm here if they want to talk, but I'm not going to insert myself.

as the answer. Because when we do that, how do other people grow? The same way that we grow. They need to grow. They need to fail. They need to do whatever it is they're doing and be loved through it. They don't need you to stop them from making mistakes. Because as my therapist told me many years ago, you don't know what they need to learn in this lifetime and how they're going to do it.

So I think slowing down the impulsive nature of this affliction can be really helped by having a dedicated meditation practice, questioning like what you're doing in the moment, slowing down, listening to your body. And when it comes to the people in your life that you feel bad that you're not quote unquote fixing, becoming empathic, listening, right? We can be with people. We can love them. It's harder.

and way more loving for me to say to you, John, how can I best deploy you right now? Tell me. And then for me to do that, instead of me being like, John, you know what you need to do? You need to just call this person. I already got you a lawyer. I'm doing X, Y, and Z because I want it off my plate. That doesn't feel good, does it? So for those who are listening, Carrie just talked about three important concepts. One is

that we need to make self-consideration the new self-care. She talked about taking a resentment inventory and how it's so important to do that inventory to break unhealthy patterns. And then lastly, she brought up the let them strategy and how it can help us navigate relationships more effectively. And I've had to employ that myself with my two kids. And I guess I have tried to parent differently than my parents parented me, which was...

basically by trying to micromanage my life. And what I've tried to do with my kids is I feel like having them make mistakes earlier in life is a much better way to learn than micromanaging them

to the point that when they're making fatal mistakes in life, it's when they have huge consequences. Well, another thing that you bring up, Terry, is this concept of living life light. Can you explain what that is? Because I think it goes into perhaps what we were talking about with the blueprint, but I'm hoping you could expand upon it. Sure. Sure.

I came up with this concept because I was seeing the level of preoccupation in my clients who are high-functioning codependents and my own level of preoccupation when I was actively before I got into recovery. The preoccupation we have with

other people's feelings, trying to control situations that aren't ours, being in conversations, but we're really not that present in the conversation because we're trying to control the conversation. We don't want it to go a certain way. We're very dialed into our surroundings. So I'd be talking to someone. I always felt like I could do both very well, but probably that's not accurate. So lifelight means that when your mind is constantly ruminating about other things,

when we're constantly thinking about other people and the pain that they're in and the things that they're doing and what we need to do for them. We're not fully experiencing our own lives. We're only half present. It's very similar to how I hear about the younger generation that is always connected to their phones. You're watching a movie, but you're also on your phone. That movie is going to hit different because you did not give it your undivided attention.

And this is the same thing. Like we're splitting our attention when you're an active HFC, where you're just, your mind is always thinking of something else. And your present moment consciousness is almost non-existent because it's always on to the next. What is the next thing to handle? What is the next thing I need to do? That type of thing. And it really takes away a lot of the juiciness and the joy in life. It really does.

Terry, I thought a way that we could maybe make this come to life for people and use this as a practical exercise is...

Throughout the book, the way you write it is you tell different stories. You then have different activities and exercises people can do. You provide examples, etc. One of the personal stories that you talk about, in addition to the one that we brought up with Billy, was someone named Andrea, who is this highly successful lawyer.

And let's just say they could be a highly successful doctor or a business person or actor and actress or whatever you want it to be. But in her case, this, her life ends up leading to tons of stress and she ends up having a panic attack, which I think many of us can feel what that's like because we've been there. What is it about high function and codependence like Andrea?

That makes it so reluctant to recognize their needs. And I was hoping maybe through Andrea, because people I think can relate to her, maybe you can walk them through. If you're feeling like Andrea was, what are some immediate exercises that they could do? So for Andrea, she was like the queen of managing stress, supposedly, because she had such a busy work 60 hours a week. There was all these things. She had young kids. She was like the center of her friends group. She did all the things. And

And she ended up, she was helping her babysitter, her nanny, with something. After a long day, her assistant was out. There was all of these things. It was like piling up and piling up. And she ends up trying to counsel her babysitter about her boyfriend who she thinks stepped out on her. And all of a sudden she felt like there was an elephant sitting on her chest.

So she ends up, when I finally see her the next week, because she canceled last minute the week before, which is super unlike her. She was so frigging organized. And would come in literally with talking points to therapy. She padded together. And I said, you know what happened? And she didn't believe it. She said, I was definitely having a heart attack. And they told me it was a panic attack. And I was like, but Andrea, EKG, you just told me the EKG said you were not having a heart attack. And it was so painful.

for her to recognize that it was too much. What she was doing was too much. And even though she denied it in her mind, the wisdom of her body, right? Her body was telling another story that it is too much and I cannot go at this pace and I need to rest. And I see with a lot of HFCs, we can do that in our 20s and maybe even into your early 30s. But as age happens, you really need to conserve your bandwidth and be pouring into yourself.

So with Andrea, once we got her to a place of acceptance of, wow, that really is what happened, we started adding all of these things into her life that she would never have done before. Meditating was one of the ones. And for a lot of my clients, meditation was hard. So what I started doing long before I was a meditation teacher, long before I had meditation CDs, I would just spontaneously do it in the office.

So that, and then they would put it on their phone and then they would have that. So I was always doing guided meditations, custom for my clients in the office to whatever they were going through. So that was the beginning for her to feel like she could do it. I purposefully in my office created what I call the Zeng Den.

Little lights and lavender smell and candles so that I wanted my clients to speak. You can create this in your life too, right? It doesn't all have to be this fast pace. So that was the beginning for her was learning to meditate and also starting to, we did a whole, we did a whole thing about her marriage and her business, all of the things that she was doing and came up with ideas of what are things that she,

could not do? What are things that she's outgrown doing? What are things that make no sense that she's still the person doing them where she was high up in, you know, in her law firm? And so that was a very eye-opening experience. I don't know if I even wrote that in the book, but that was one of the things that we did do that was helpful for her. And she started looking at self-consideration from a completely different lens of that it was going to have her be better for her children.

in her marriage. It's not about being more efficient. When you are in recovery for being a high functioning codependent, what you're gaining is being more present right here, right now. Because this moment that we're sharing right now is the only one that we're actually guaranteed we're going to get. So all of this future pacing and all of this future living doesn't help. So we were able to help Andrea slow down enough

to actually being here now. Thank you for sharing that story. And as a person, as a fellow host, one of the things that means the most to me is when I hear listeners write in. And so I just wanted to highlight this one from your book because I love how you incorporate it in the book. The listener's name is Carla, a self-identified recovering HFC who wanted to share her story with you. And she said,

that she was at their daughter's wedding and her husband ends up having this frightening outburst during a time meant for joy and driven by recent insights into her own behavior from listening to your podcast and reading your book, she recognized the need to respond thoughtfully. She broke her old habits

of impulsively excusing his actions. And she took the time to compose herself and then basically went to him and outlined her non-negotiable boundaries, which was he needed to seek counseling, re-engage with the church, and build a supportive network. And if he failed to do those, she was no longer willing to accept his actions. And I think it's an empowerful

example that kind of wraps up today's episode because she recognized she was an HFC. She recognized that she needed to establish boundaries

One thing I liked about it is she took the time to step away from it to organize her thoughts on how she wanted to deal with the situation, which she knew could be delicate. But then she firmly put in place what her boundaries were and the ramifications for him if he didn't accept them. So I really appreciated that story.

It just warms my heart to hear people negotiating for their own needs in a way that feels empowering to them. You don't have to be mad. You don't have to flip out. It's just powerful to know what you are no longer tolerating. It feels good to be able to say, hey, we could work this out, but this is what's required of you. And then if he doesn't do it, that's on his side of the street.

And Terry, my last question for you is you've put a ton of effort as you always do when you're writing one of these books to get too much into the world. What is one key thing that you hope a reader or a listener of today's podcast will take away if they don't take away anything else? You can change your life.

If you identify being exhausted, you feel burnt out. If you're over giving, over feeling, over functioning in your relationships, you give all this responsibility. You can change how you are relating and that will change your life. There is so much more joy, expansion, surrender, allowing people to do things for you in your life instead of being so hyper independent, which is what HFCs tend to be. But just have hope.

that one next right action at a time. You can do it. In fact, I have a gift for your audience. It's just like an HFC toolkit to help people who want to get started. They're not exactly sure how to do it. You just go to terricole.com forward slash HFC and it's an HFC starter kit basically.

That's awesome. And I always like to end these by giving you other opportunities to talk about where people can find you and other things that you're doing that a listener should be aware of. So the book is in the world as of today. So that's extremely exciting. You can go to hfcbook.com and we have all kinds of beautiful bonuses.

that we are giving to people. If you're in New York City, we're having a party tonight. You're welcome to come. It's actually in New York and you can see all of that on my website. I have a community, again, on our website where I'm walking so many people through this process of getting into recovery from this affliction because it robs so much of our joy. You can follow me on Instagram

Instagram, just at Terry Cole. And you've been on my show. I also have a pod since 2015 called The Terry Cole Show. Well, Terry, always such an honor to have you on the show. And thank you so much for joining us. And congratulations on this extremely well-written book. I can't wait to see this. And it's already number one on Amazon. So congratulations to you.

Thank you so much for having me, John. I appreciate you. Wow, what an incredible conversation that was with Terry Cole. Her expertise and breaking free from high-functioning codependency is absolutely life-changing. Whether it's learning how to set healthier boundaries or recognizing when we've taken on too much, her insights are invaluable. It was great having Terry back on the show. If you loved her advice in episode 287,

I'm sure today's conversation has resonated just as deeply. One of the key takeaways from this episode is that it's okay to say no and prioritize your own well-being. So I want to leave you with this. What's one area of your life where you've been overextending yourself? How can you start setting boundaries today

Thank you.

Too Much, in the show notes at passionstruck.com. Please use our website links if you purchase any of the books from the guests that we feature here on the show. Videos of this episode are also available on YouTube, and don't forget to check out our sponsors and deals at passionstruck.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Before we close, I want to remind you that beyond hosting the podcast, I'm passionate about sharing these insights with organizations and teams through speaking engagements. If today's conversation sparks something in you and you think my message can inspire your company, head over to johnrmiles.com slash speaking to learn more. Let's work together to create intentional change and ignite growth. In our next episode, get ready for an incredible conversation with Art Markman.

a renowned professor of psychology and marketing at the University of Texas. We'll be exploring the science of decision-making, creativity, and how to cultivate a growth mindset. It's an episode you don't want to miss. People have asked me, in this age of generative AI and all of these tools, is a college education going to become less important

My argument is it actually becomes more important in a dynamic environment. And that's because what a college education, a four-year degree program really does is to give people a discipline for thinking. And we often throw around this word discipline. We say, well, what are the disciplines? History or English or chemistry or biology. These are disciplines. And we don't often take that word seriously. But a discipline is a way of

of giving yourself a mode for understanding the complexity of the world, turning it into something that is ultimately manageable by having a way of analyzing what's going on around you, asking questions of the world to provide you with more information and giving you a framework in which to learn new things.

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