Pamela Moss
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This was a very gruesome crime scene. Detectives race against the clock to preserve crucial evidence. She had left the fireplace gas starter on. And as soon as that gas hits it, it's going to blow everything all up. And as detectives work to locate a missing person, they uncover a string of murders and fear a serial killer may escape justice once again. I do not know where he is.

Who else has she done this to and we don't know. March 13, 2012, McDonough, Georgia. A small town just an hour south of Atlanta brimming with southern hospitality. The relationships and the community aspect are still really strong and have a somewhat small town Georgia feel. McDonough has always been a relatively safe place to live and raise a family.

When Jim Coker comes into the Henry County Sheriff's Office and introduces himself as the nephew of 67-year-old Doug Coker, officers immediately recognize him. Mr. Coker had multiple businesses and was not only well-known, but he was extremely well thought of in his community. Jim says his aunt, Judy Coker, had called him in a panic earlier that afternoon.

She said, "Will you please reach out to law enforcement?" She had repeatedly tried to call her husband and had been unable to get a hold of him. No one from his work had been able to get a hold of him. And it is unusual for Mr. Coker to go that long without speaking to any of those individuals. - Waving the normal protocols, detectives immediately take the case.

He's been missing at least for a few hours. Mr. Coker was extremely close to his family, kept very close ties with them, and would talk to them multiple times a day along with people who worked with him. And he had lost all of that contact. He was a little older gentleman that, you know, it doesn't really happen at his age unless there's something going on.

That made law enforcement not wait the prescribed amount of time and instead jumped immediately into looking for him. Born into a working-class household in Atlanta in 1945, Doug Coker was determined to make something of his life. Doug was incredibly sharp. He graduated from DeKalb High School and then went on to DeKalb Tech and graduated in 1964.

He was an all-around good person. Everybody basically talked about how wonderful he was. He was highly intelligent. After college, Doug met and married a woman named Diane and settled in McDonough, Georgia, where the couple started a family and Doug stretched his entrepreneurial legs. Doug was successful in starting a storage business.

with Doug Coker properties, which he had countless rental homes as well as an automotive business. He does own quite a few properties in the area, all the way from Macon up through McDonough. These are nice properties that we're talking about that any of us would be very happy to live in.

What I respected most was that his driving factor was always how he could provide and give more to his family. While Doug's businesses were booming, his marriage struggled. And in 1977, Doug and his wife divorced. Now single, Doug threw himself into his work and focused on using his money for good.

Doug's favorite thing to do with his money was to provide opportunities to better our community. He was someone devoting their life to better others. In 1982, Doug met a woman named Judy Cook Phillips. Like Doug, she was also self-made after years of working in the banking industry, as well as active in charitable causes in the McDonough area.

Judy was extremely devoted to our community and several different civic organizations. Judy retired as a banker in Henry County. She is sweet and endearing and loving, a selfless, kind and compassionate person. Doug and Judy fell hard for each other, and in 1984, the couple married.

Judy was always prioritized and taken care of by Doug. He just adored her and did everything he could to provide the life that she had always dreamed of. Judy worked closely with her husband. She was a real, real nice lady. They were just kind of a power team throughout our community.

Over the next few decades, the Cokers devoted themselves to charitable causes. But their true passion was their kids and grandkids. When Doug and Judy met and got married, they each had two children from a previous marriage. They had six grandchildren. He treasured every minute that he got to spend with his grandchildren. It was just one great, happy family.

In 2012, as their 70th birthdays approached, Doug and Judy wanted to focus their golden years on leaving a legacy to the community they adored.

He had decided that he was going to take these 40 properties that he owned and he wanted to set up a nonprofit organization that would help provide homeless people with homes to live in. He wanted to give back to his community because he had reached a point in his life where he could do that. He was just branching out with a new endeavor that he had always dreamed of.

But now, the nearly 70-year-old Doug Coker is missing, and his nephew Jim Coker reports his disappearance to police on March 13, 2012. He's been missing most of the day at this point, and we are concerned where he may be. We have a missing elderly person that would cause us to look into a lot faster than, say, a middle-aged person that just disappeared, hadn't heard from a day before.

They became concerned, you know, he may have some sort of medical issue going on. One thing that does feel out of place to detectives is the fact that Doug's wife, Judy Coker, asked her nephew to report him missing for her. Law enforcement will look at a spouse in any given missing persons case.

What they're looking at is, is there a large insurance policy that goes along with Mr. Coker?

Coming up, detectives track down the last person to speak with this missing businessman. She doesn't appear to have any emotions or concerns about Mr. Coker or where he may be located. And a background check offers a chilling new lead. They put together that, wait a minute, she was a person who had gone to prison for murder.

After receiving a missing persons report for prominent McDonough, Georgia businessman Doug Coker, detectives with the Henry County Sheriff's Office immediately drive to Doug's home to speak to his wife of 30 years, Judy Coker.

-Law enforcement was first contacted not by Doug's wife, but by a nephew. His wife had contacted the nephew and said, "Will you please reach out to law enforcement? I still haven't been able to get ahold of him." -When detectives sit down with Judy, they're suspicious as to why she didn't simply make the call herself.

Judy Coker said she decided to pick out a person who can contact law enforcement and be able to relay information without all of the emotion that goes with, quite frankly, a wife of 30 years calling and being extremely upset. Detectives then asked Judy to go over the day's timeline of events.

She said that morning was like any other morning. They had gotten ready for work. She gave him a kiss goodbye. Ms. Coker at that point knew that he was headed to a meeting that morning. She didn't know much more than that. Judy claims that she went to work soon after and tried to check back in with her husband after lunch. She had tried to call him by phone, and she was not getting any answer, which is unusual for him.

Finally, around 2:30 p.m., Judy's phone rang. She did receive a phone call from his phone with nobody talking or nobody saying anything through the line of it. So they just hung up and nothing else was said. She had tried back multiple times after that. He didn't answer any of those particular phone calls.

so that made her more concerned. He might be having some type of medical emergency. Judy tells investigators her husband had a recent heart aneurysm and she worries that he might be in trouble. Mr. Coker had underlying medical conditions which would make locating him quickly a very important task. Detectives obtain a list of Doug's properties and begin their search.

He had approximately 41 rental properties. That was where we were going to start looking because it was possibly where he could be at visiting or following up on something. So that would take a long time to check each one of those. We'd also produce a BOLO, notify surrounding jurisdictions to see if they could check that area.

They reached out to the hospitals to see if anybody unknown had come in as a John Doe to the hospitals. Not only did they have law enforcement involved, but again, this was a very close family, and he was extremely well thought of. So they had friends out helping with that.

By nightfall, there's still no sign of Doug. Detectives are forced to consider a grim possibility. There became great concern whether he was missing because of a medical condition or whether he was missing because there had been some sort of foul play involved. You want to stay on top of it, asking questions about where was he going, what was he doing here, things of that nature.

That evening, detectives meet with Doug's wife, Judy, a second time. Once again, she repeats her earlier story and seems distraught over the idea that someone may have harmed her husband. Law enforcement tends to start looking into foul play a lot faster than the families tend to. Families tend to hold out hope that it's not foul play.

Detectives ask Judy about the couple's home life and financial situation leading up to Doug's disappearance. He had been married 30 years. He was in a very happy relationship. They were a tight-knit family. And all of the Cokers seemed to do well for themselves. They seemed to all have good work ethics and family ethics.

Judy explains to detectives that their finances were in good shape and she has no financial motive to hurt Doug. In fact, Judy offers to let detectives review the couple's phone records and gives the names of coworkers who can vouch for her whereabouts earlier that day. - Law enforcement knew early on that Judy Coker was at work.

With Judy's alibi confirmed, she is cleared of any involvement and detectives start focusing on Doug's cell phone records.

The easiest way for law enforcement to start trying to track down a missing person is to do what they call pinging a cell phone. And then what they look at is, well, where's the last known cell phone tower that you pinged? In this particular case, they did ping his cell phone and it was determined that the location was supposed to be at the Bass Road McDonald's in Macon. He had received several calls early in the morning at the restaurant.

That gave us an idea that he was actually in that area. That evening, detectives obtained surveillance footage from the McDonald's in Macon. They quickly scrubbed to 11 o'clock that morning when the calls from Doug's phone were placed. You can watch him come inside the McDonald's. You can tell he comes in with paper in his hand. He goes up to the front desk. He orders a coffee.

He checks out with the cashier. He's drinking his coffee. The video can confirm that he's able to function, so a medical problem is not going to be a reason of concern at this point. The video shows that at 11:05 a.m., Doug pulls out his phone. You can see Mr. Coker take a phone call on his cell phone, and he starts writing down on the piece of paper information.

We could not read the note, but it does give us an idea that he's just jotting something down real quick because it was not a long note. He was there for a short time. He was able to get coffee, take the note, take a phone call, and left. He'd bought a cup of coffee, and then after that, it was like he vanished.

Detectives know they need to figure out who was Doug talking with before he disappeared. You can compare the time that he is on his cell phone in the video with the same exact time, according to the phone records, that he is having a phone call. And based on his call logs, it shows that he was receiving a call from Pamela Moss.

As far as detectives know, Pamela Moss is the last person to ever speak to Doug Coker. So they reach out to Doug's family to see if her name rings a bell. Judy Coker did not know much about Pamela Moss at all. Nobody knew who she was. So that was, to begin with, that was really what they were trying to find out. An investigator was able to break that wide open for law enforcement. She was not who she said she was.

Coming up, detectives uncover alarming intel on a potential suspect. They call her the Black Widow of Macon.

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On March 14, 2012, 24 hours after prominent Georgia businessman Doug Coker's disappearance, phone records show that the last person Doug spoke to was a woman named Pamela Moss. Detectives with the Henry County Sheriff's Office work quickly to reach out to Pamela. We made contact with Pamela Moss by phone to arrange a meeting to speak with her about her relationship with Mr. Coker.

And if she had seen him or talked to him recently, she claims she's out of town. Pamela agrees to meet investigators the following day in Marietta. In the meantime, she tells detectives about her connection to Doug Coker. Mr. Coker and Pamela Moss first met each other at a business function that she had gone to up in the Atlanta area.

Pamela explained that she was a grant writer and she was there to assist Mr. Coker in obtaining a grant. Pamela Moss was supposed to be setting up a charitable organization. In this charity, 40 homes were going to go to homeless individuals.

She asked Doug for funds to apply for a grant. Mr. Coker had loaned her $85,000 to start this nonprofit, which would give him a grant for this nonprofit to start. Pamela tells police that the pair met up every few weeks to discuss her progress. In fact, on March 13, 2012, she and Doug had agreed to meet at the Macon McDonald's. When she called him, she was telling him that she was going to be late.

So what she did was when he was coming out with his coffee, she saw him in the parking lot. They had a very quick meeting and they were done. She stayed in the parking lot. She didn't go inside and that's why we did not see her on the video. She claimed after she met with him at the restaurant in Macon that they did part ways. She does not know where Mr. Coker went after the meeting.

Detectives thank Pamela for her time and agree to meet in person the following day. While her story sounds plausible, for detectives, something doesn't sit right. She doesn't appear to have any emotions or concerns about Mr. Coker or where he may be located. To be safe, detectives run a background check on Pamela.

They put together that, wait a minute, Pamela Mauls is Pamela Fry. And Pamela Fry was a person who had gone to prison for murder. Pamela Sutton was born in Rome, Georgia in 1957. She was a gifted student, graduating with a degree in psychology from Mercer University.

She was such a, and is such, a highly intelligent person. She actually worked for a psychologist for a number of years administering IQ tests. I'd say she's a little bit more of an aggressive type personality. She's very go-getter. She's very outgoing. She was funny. She seemed bright. We talked about the same books, and we both, you know, got along. She had a mean sense of humor. I have a mean sense of humor.

Pamela dreamed of earning a graduate degree in psychology, but her plans were derailed when her stepfather died suddenly while at work. If you looked at the autopsy of the father, he died of a mixture of an alcohol and eloquent overdose. Its intended purpose is that it, among other things, is an antidepressant, a sleep aid, and it is also used in conjunction with migraine headaches.

Pamela stepped in to take care of her mother, 64-year-old Barbara Frye, until tragedy struck again in 1996. According to Pamela Moss, her mother falls down the stairs and ends up hitting her head, and that caused an injury that she went to the hospital for. Pamela's mother recovered enough to be sent home with her daughter.

But on February 16th, just a month after her fall, Barbara unexpectedly passed away. It appeared that Ms. Fry had ultimately succumbed to injuries based on this previous fall. They buried her mother and didn't think much about it. The sudden death of Pamela's mother was never investigated until detectives got an unexpected tip.

One of Pamela's mom's friends actually wrote a letter and said that she believed that her friend had been murdered by the daughter, Pamela Moss. Her friends thought that the circumstances around the fall just didn't add up to them.

Her condition after she got out continued to worsen according to them. She should be getting better and not getting worse. There was enough on the table that we felt like it warranted doing an autopsy. So the body was actually exhumed. When they exhumed the body of the mother, they found that there was an indent on her head that actually matched the shape of a hammer.

And so the thought process was she had actually not fallen down the stairs, but in fact had been hit in the head with a hammer. They did a toxology report and it came back that she had several drugs in her system. She ended up passing from an eloqual overdose.

Ms. Moss had quite a number of people in her life that died of an eloquent overdose. Her father died of one mixed with alcohol. Her mother died of an eloquent overdose, we know for certain. So it seemed to be a nice pattern there.

The investigators executed search warrants for her office and for her house. She was taking the prescription pads from that office and using it, using them to write large amounts of prescriptions. Also, we learned Barbara had a fairly substantial insurance policy at that point and that Pam was the beneficiary. We knew that there was some link between Pam and her mother's death.

They were able to get an indictment on Ms. Moss for killing her mother. Although prosecutors suspected the murder was planned, much of their evidence remained circumstantial. She entered a plea to manslaughter, and she received a 10-year sentence. She ended up serving approximately seven years of that sentence. After her release in 2005, Pamela stayed in Macon, but her past haunted her.

They called her the Black Widow of Macon. And it was like the talk of the town for a long time that she had done that. Pamela changed her name to Pamela Frye so that when she came out, nobody knew who she was.

Pamela landed a job at a local bookstore, and it seemed like she was off to a fresh start. Soon, she fell in love with a man 17 years her senior, 65-year-old retired contractor Gene Moss. They were just happy, always giggling and laughing. I never saw anger between them at all.

He had very old-fashioned manners. He seemed very considerate of her and indulgent of her. Just three months after meeting, the couple married. By all accounts, he didn't have any idea that she had ever been to prison.

The pair were happily married for six years until October 26, 2011, when Pamela called 911 in tears. She said that she heard the water running upstairs. And so she went upstairs and she said she found him in the shower. And apparently he had fallen in the shower. He is deceased.

Law enforcement goes out. He has a red round mark on his head. Officers theorized the mark on Gene's head was simply an injury he sustained during his fall. At the time, Pamela and Gene's family believed that Gene's death was caused by a massive stroke.

Pamela Moss had said that he had been sick leading up to this. They didn't do an autopsy, and she pretty quickly has him cremated. I was in disbelief. My dad never talked about being cremated. He always talked about how he wanted to be buried next to his mom, next to his parents. I really questioned it.

Now, five months later, detectives investigating the disappearance of Doug Coker are wondering if he had met the same fate as the other three people in Pamela's circle of trust. We were fairly certain that she had a major involvement in his disappearance. Coming up, investigators go toe-to-toe with their chief suspect.

Where is Mr. Coker? I have no idea where Mr. Coker is. And just as authorities make a gruesome discovery, they fear they're walking into a trap. I smelled natural gas coming from around the house. My first thought would be to get the hell out.

After uncovering Pamela Moss's violent past, investigators fear she is involved in the disappearance of 67-year-old Doug Coker. Detectives ping Pamela's cell phone and subpoena her phone records, hoping to connect her to the crime. The location that she was supposedly at was not lining up with cell phone records, and that was a big red flag for us.

She kept trying to say that she showed up in the McDonald's, but we were able to show that she didn't based on her cell phone record. On March 15th, detectives meet Pamela at a coffee shop in Marietta, Georgia, and confront her with their findings. When he came to the McDonald's, were you already there? No, I was late. Did you meet him inside the restaurant? No. In the parking lot? No. When Pamela sticks to the story she told them before, detectives begin to turn up the heat.

We confronted her about the location of where her cell phone was pinging. It showed that she was not at the restaurant or even in the area of the restaurant. Why are you telling me you were at the McDonald's? Because I did talk to him at McDonald's at some point that day. She was very nervous. She tried to act as though there was a mistake. Where is Mr. Coker? I have no idea where Mr. Coker is. Where is Mr. Coker? I do not know where Mr. Coker is.

You were the last person that we know that was with him. I do not know where he is. I have no clue where he is. Pamela abruptly ends the interview and agrees to come in for a formal statement the following morning. When Pamela is a no-show the next day, Detective Jamie Jones drives to her house on the evening of March 18, 2012. Sunday night,

have the inclination of going to her house. So I went out at night trying to see if she was at home. He knocks on the door, does not get an answer. However, he smells a horrible odor. I started smelling a real foul odor of death and followed that scent

As I walked around to the corner of the house, I noticed what resembled a body covered under a tarp. I lifted the tarp up and noticed immediately a red plaid shirt that Mr. Coker was last known to have on. I immediately knew that that was Mr. Coker. That's when I backed off and called for backup. Officers soon surround the house.

We knock on the front door and at that time I smelled natural gas coming from around the house and around the windows of the house. You have no idea how much it has saturated the surroundings and you have no idea what ignition source is nearby. And as soon as that gas hits it, it's going to blow everything all out. We backed out and called the natural gas company to come out and turn off the gas to the house.

Fire department crews had to come out to the home to clear it. They make entry into the home to determine that there is nobody in there that is in danger. Ms. Moss had left the fireplace gas starter on. That's why it had filled up the house. Presumably, she hoped for an explosion, which, for her purposes, would have been great because all of the evidence, so to speak, would have gone up in flames.

When the fire department finally gives the all clear, detectives discover a brutal scene inside Pamela's home. I noticed that there was a big blood splatter on the floor and wall in her living room area. It sends chills up your spine. This was a very gruesome crime scene. There was blood still on the ceiling.

There was blood on picture frames, family picture frames. In the kitchen, investigators recover the murder weapon. It was a red hammer. She had attempted to clean the hammer, but there was still blood on the hammer itself. I noticed that there were some burnt matches in the kitchen sink that she had lit to burn up the house.

Fortunately, the matches had burned out before igniting the gas. Now, detectives need to find Pamela. As law enforcement fans out over the county, Doug's body is sent to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy. It was very easy to tell that there had been blunt force trauma to the left side of his head. You could not tell.

recognize him from his face because the majority of the left side of his face was gone. Word of the prominent businessman's death leaves the Macon community reeling. I told my husband what had happened. He was in total shock, disbelief. We didn't know what to think. We were just in shock.

On March 19th, officers receive an eerie lead from a friend of Pamela's. Law enforcement actually gets a tip that a friend from church picked Pamela Moss up close to a hospital parking lot. Law enforcement starts searching that hospital parking lot, and they actually find Mr. Coker's vehicle. Once they located Mr. Coker's car, forensically, there was nothing important that you would hope or expect located in there.

There was not blood. There was nothing along those lines. With no evidence found in Doug's vehicle, investigators continue searching for Pamela, and the mystery of her whereabouts finally ends later that night. Pamela's sister called 911 when she found Pamela Moss unresponsive down where her sister lives because she had tried to commit suicide with Eloquil.

Detectives rush down to Wayne County Memorial Hospital, where they find Pamela clinging to life. While at the hospital, they meet Pamela's half-sister, Carolyn Holland, and inform her of Doug's murder. It just shocked me so bad. I'm thinking, what did she do? I was so hurt and just confused.

Though Carolyn claims she has never met Doug, she did speak to him on the phone on March 13th. Pam told me that she wanted me to talk to Mr. Coker. I talked with Mr. Coker and he told me, you know, about the nonprofit, you know, what he was wanting to do. And a few minutes later, the phone just went dead. Just dead. And I was saying, hello, hello, you know, and I thought, well, bad connection.

Pamela Moss calls her sister back, and according to Ms. Holland, Pamela Moss tells her she doesn't know what happened, that Mr. Coker just up and left the home all of a sudden.

Detectives suspect that Pamela's strange excuse is covering up something more sinister. It was my belief that during that phone call, somewhere around 1151, is when Miss Moss starts hitting Mr. Coker over the head with a hammer.

After two days in the hospital, Pamela survives her suicide attempt. And when she awakes on March 21, 2012, detectives arrest her for first-degree murder. She didn't have anything to say. There were no interviews with Ms. Moss directly afterwards. Coming up, does Pamela have one final card to play?

She was not going to go back to prison. They planned on arguing that Ms. Moss actually suffered from multiple personality disorder. In March of 2012, Pamela Moss is being held for the murder of prominent McDonough, Georgia businessman Doug Coker.

To secure their case, detectives subpoena Pamela and Doug's email records. In them, the pair discuss the status of Doug's nonprofit grant. The email showed that he was concerned about what Pam was doing with the money that he had given her. He had asked for his money in the past, and she continued to try to push it off. She eventually told him that she had used some of that money, and she would be returning it to him as soon as she could.

It appeared as though Ms. Moss was trying to life until the insurance policy came in from her husband. Her income was essentially doing what she was doing, which was scamming Mr. Coker. By March, Doug had grown weary of Pamela's excuses. He had told her she either needed to give the $85,000 back or he was going to go to law enforcement and she was going to go to prison.

Detectives believe that for Pamela, who had already spent seven years behind bars, Doug's threat was enough to push her over the edge. She was not going to go back to prison. She was going to make sure he couldn't talk. Detectives theorize that Pamela arranged a meeting and then lured Doug to her house on the morning of March 13, 2012. He was asking questions that she didn't have any good answers to.

and that she was furious about being questioned. Investigators believe that is when Pamela offered to put her half-sister, Carolyn, on the phone to vouch for her trustworthiness. The entire reason for Pamela Moss having her sister have a phone call with Doug Coker was to distract him. While he's sitting in the chair with his back turned, that's when we believe she took the hammer to him.

This was an extremely horrific murder. After Doug was dead, Pamela set about covering up her crime and calling Doug's wife to make it seem like he was still alive. She then later takes his car, drives the vehicle, abandons it at a hospital parking lot up in the Griffin area. She tried every way she could to cover up and clean up

the mess that she had left. And when she figured out she couldn't do that, presumably her next best way was to set the house on fire.

When the case goes to trial on August 26, 2013, Pamela's lawyers dispute the idea that Doug's death was a premeditated attack. In opening statements, the defense attorney told the jury that they planned on making an insanity defense, arguing that Ms. Moss actually suffered from multiple personality disorder.

Prosecutors, Doug's family, and even Pamela's closest friends don't buy the act. Nothing ever indicated to me that Pam was out of control of herself. She knew where she was. She knew what she was doing. There weren't extra Pams lurking under the surface. She worked in a psychiatrist's office for a number of years. I believe she had the

knowledge to try to fool even a trained professional. But Pamela isn't able to fool a jury. On August 29th, 2013, after just 30 minutes of deliberation, Pamela is found guilty of first-degree murder. Ms. Moss received a sentence of life without the possibility of parole. I was very thankful that it was without parole. Very thankful.

It's exactly what she deserved to be locked up, lonely for the rest of her life. If you really loved me, you definitely would not have taken my daddy away, killed him like I believe that you did. We're dealing with a person who has no remorse, who does not value human life, who values, quite frankly, money over anything.

Despite Pamela's conviction, questions still linger to this day. I know she killed her mother. She went to prison for that. I believe she killed Gene, but she covered that up, so there's no way anybody will ever know. We know she killed Mr. Coker. It's often run across my mind many, many times. Who else has she done this to? And we don't know. She's a serial killer.

Family get-togethers have never felt the same since Doug's passing. The world needs more Doug Cokers in it. People who are willing to give back to those less fortunate and to spread joy in a world that desperately needs it.

Pamela Moss is serving her time at Pulaski State Prison in Hawkinsville, Georgia. No one has ever been charged in the deaths of Pamela's stepfather or her husband, Gene Moss. This is the emergency broadcast system. A ballistic missile threat has been detected inbound to your area. Your phone buzzes and you look down to find this alert. What do you do next? Maybe you're at the grocery store. Or maybe you're with your secret lover. Or maybe you're robbing a bank.

Based on the real-life false alarm that terrified Hawaii in 2018, Incoming, a brand-new fiction podcast exclusively on Wondery Plus, follows the journey of a variety of characters as they confront the unimaginable. The missiles are coming. What am I supposed to do? Featuring incredible performances from Tracy Letts, Mary Lou Henner, Mary Elizabeth Ellis, Paul Edelstein, and many, many more, Incoming is a hilariously thrilling podcast that will leave you wondering, how would you spend your last few minutes on Earth? ♪

You can binge incoming exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.