Unmasking the Manipulator: Insights from a Prosecutor
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Hey, it's Britt. Today I got to sit down and talk to Hugh Barber, a seasoned trial lawyer. He was a criminal prosecutor in Seattle for 30 years. He's tried over 100 cases, including aggravated murder and sexual assault. During our conversation, we do dive into sexual assault, rape, and other topics that may be difficult to hear, but his mantra is doing good and helping people, and that really shows.

Hugh and I got to talk about a lot of different topics and his perspective as an expert in the criminal justice world really helped me navigate some of the things that came up during the podcast. So here's my conversation with Hugh.

If you could tell me a little bit about who you are and what you do. I am currently an attorney with HCAM Employment Attorneys. We represent employees who've been wrongfully terminated or sexually harassed or anything I discriminated against in any sort of way. I've been with them since January of 2021.

And for the 27 years before that, I was a King County prosecuting attorney. So I prosecuted sex crimes, crimes against kids, and homicides, primarily homicides against kids under the age of six. I left them in January of 2021 because COVID had hit. It was a nine-year stint in the Special Assault Unit, back-to-back trials. It was super stressful, and I just figured it was time for a change.

That sounds horrific. I can't imagine having to deal with that level of, I guess, pain and suffering every day.

Yeah, it is horrific. It's also incredibly inspiring to see the journeys how these mostly women sort of triumph over trauma at their own pace, you know, along their own path is really a remarkable thing. I had one victim, for example, who was raped the night before she was going to fly back home to visit her family at Christmas after having taken her last final exam at UW.

After she graduated, she was a teacher for Teach for America in Boston and didn't want any part of the prosecution for months and months and months. This guy had offended against multiple women, and the investigation took a long time.

Finally, she came around, allowed me to have a conversation with her. Months after that, wrote me an email and said, hey, I'm quitting my job. I'm moving to Seattle. I'm going to be there for you. And she was. And I don't know, a year later or so, the trial happened. The guy was convicted. She was at sentencing. Her parents were there the whole time. And when we left sentencing, I told her what I often tell my adult survivors is,

is that I will never reach out to you because I recognize that I may be a reminder of the worst thing that's ever happened to you, but I will always be here for you. About a year later, she emailed me. She said, hey, let's get lunch. And we did. And she told me, I'm going to quit teaching. I'm going to go to law school and I'm going to become a prosecutor. That was six years ago. She is now a deputy prosecuting attorney in the King County prosecutor's office. And we get lunch and drinks and dinner and strategize on cases all the time. So that's

That's what makes all of that horror and trauma worth it. That sort of lasting connection. It's been incredible because so many women have reached out to me to say that they've related to different parts of the story that I told. And all of their experiences have been a little different levels of trauma related.

But how they have recovered is what has been so amazing to hear and has made all of this worth it. I know that you listen to the podcast. Twice. So thank you. I'm a little interested to hear what you thought about it, but it was really hard for me to do that.

So hearing from these women has made it worth it. And so I would imagine it's that exact same feeling for you. Yeah. I mean, I was struck by, I can't remember if it was Sophia or not Sarah, but one of the other, one of his other victims was,

said, she's never going to date again. Yeah. She's done. Tasha, I think is the one, yeah. Tasha, okay, that's right. Thank you. And yet your journey has taken you to a different conclusion. You're still going to take risks. You're still going to put your heart out there. And that's fabulous. And so is Tasha's response, right? There is no right way to respond to being taken advantage of like this guy took advantage of all of you. And it changes over time. I can't say...

that I'm going to find somebody or that I'm going to keep dating, you know, as much as I can, or that I'm going to sit at home with my dog. I might change my mind. But the beauty in it is that

You get to experience it as life happens and realize that you're strong enough to get through it. Right. And however you have to. And yeah, Tasha deciding not to date. I know she still isn't dating. I recently talked to a woman that had a horrific experience when she was 28. She's 52 now. And it was just similar to Canaan dating.

and mental manipulation. And she said, I decided that I didn't want to have kids. I didn't want to get married. And I haven't. And she's been single since then. So,

these types of people change the trajectory of people's lives is incredible. Yeah. And it's not illegal to break somebody's heart or to manipulate them. No. And that's kind of wrong. Yeah. Because it's, it really does change your life as much as

physical abuse or rape or any of these other assaults that happen. Yeah, it's and, you know, nothing's permanent, right? I mean, we talk about meeting other people where they are. We ought to spend a lot more time thinking about meeting ourselves where we are.

The fact that this kind of behavior is not criminal is, it's remarkable, but I sort of get it just being a lawyer. I mean, some states have rape by fraud or rape by deception statutes. But even those are sort of somebody who pretends or somebody who is a doctor who says this exam is necessary for you and sexually assaults somebody.

Or somebody, there was a case in Washington State, Matt Dickey, who pretended to be a pornographic filmmaker. And he would bring women in for interviews and say that, you know, as a condition of your employment, I need to make sure you can do this with a stranger, that you're going to be able to manage it. And he plied a number of them with alcohol. He was charged with a number of counts. And under Washington law, had he not plied them with alcohol to the extent that they became incapable of consent, there would have been nothing we could charge him with.

And even in the states that have raped by fraud or raped by deception statutes, I'm not sure that behavior would apply. Well, and it's incredible because it really does impact people on such a profound level. I was talking with someone who had told me, she said, I would rather have been punched in the face.

Because that would have been something tangible that I could address and recover from. But the mental manipulation is just because you feel crazy. You feel like you're the problem. And trying to weed through that, I would imagine in most criminal cases, you spend your time trying to prove things, trying to prove mental manipulation or harm wrong.

has to be impossible. Yeah. I mean, to your first point, when we're deceived, any of us, men or women in any way, to any degree, it,

messes with our homeostasis. It makes us question who we are. It makes us question our judgment. And the more extreme and prolonged that deception is, the greater the questioning becomes. You know, who the fuck am I? How did I get roped into this? Am I stupid? Do I just have a bad picker? You know, all of those things. And the reality is that men who do this, they're good.

They're good, right? That's why it works. Yeah. And then they know it's going to come crashing down at some point. It always does. But that's okay because they've got 13 more people on the hook. Right. And their goal was not any longevity. Their goal is the capture and the manipulation for as long as they can do it because it gets them high. And then once they're caught, it's your fault. I mean, his reaction to you calling him out.

total typical sort of antisocial personality reaction, psychopathy reaction. Like, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. That's you. You're the problem. Yeah, no, he told me, I can't believe you're going to blow up this relationship. You know, you're listening to other people blowing up this relationship. And the entire time we were together, I never once suspected that there was somebody else. It didn't even cross my mind. Until that dinner at Greg's house. Yeah, until that dinner. And then

To find out that not only was that part of it a lie, but everything he said. I still can't confirm a lot of the things in his life. Who his siblings were, if he really liked pizza. And that's where the crazy part comes in, is how did I miss that?

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You know, I don't want to take us off topic, but I had a question. That dinner at Greg's house, you said that Greg is somebody whose opinion you value immensely. He's really good at digging deep with people and peeling back the layers of the onion. But you didn't talk about his opinion.

of Canaan. Did you get it from him? Did you not ask? Did he not share it? No, he really liked him. He really liked Canaan and he was really excited for me because he, like myself, was sort of taken by him. And I mean, that whole weekend I was there with Greg, my best friend and my daughter who all know me very well. And all of us were just smitten. And yet you

Greg becomes smitten in a conversation you're overhearing where Kanan is saying stuff radically different from what he's telling you. Yeah, because he was telling Greg the story Greg wanted to hear. And I just happened to be there.

And so in his way of making people fall for him and connecting with people, it's, you know, masking and mirroring and doing those things. So it was actually fascinating because I was sitting there and I was watching him and it looked like one of those sci-fi movies where the guy morphs into an alien. Like, Kanan physically...

looked different when he was talking to Greg. Yeah. And that's when everything... The lights came on. Yeah. I was like, what the fuck is happening right now? And then to hear him say things that were the same, but not the same concepts, but kind of different details. And then it just kept building.

It was fascinating and heartbreaking, but fascinating. We can always look backwards in time and say, oh, God, should have done this, should have saw that, seen this. Early on, I don't remember, I think it was episode number one, you said, you know, I was intrigued, but a little bit nervous. He had a mischievous grin. But then you said, I'm going to let this guy fuck me up. Yeah.

But it wasn't until the dinner at Greg's that like, oh boy, something is off here. In hindsight, I'm curious, if it's not too uncomfortable to think about it, in hindsight, are there flags? Because I didn't see many significant flags from the description that you gave, little ones, which again, in hindsight, we can go like, oh, that didn't make, that doesn't sound right. Yeah, he didn't answer his phone. He didn't do this, you know, stuff that you just can sort of brush off. I would say that the biggest thing that

What became a flag once I reflected on it is he would disappear. He was very consistent with communication and texting and we would talk on the phone. But then every once in a while, there'd be a night that he just wouldn't text. And if I said something, he's like, oh, I put my phone down. You know, I had to detach for a little bit. Right.

I am a very busy person and I have kids and a job and those things. So I didn't really notice that there were such lapses in that communication until I started looking back. Right. Thinking, okay.

Oh, every Thursday night. He never messaged me between 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. And it's not like he's on a bowling team. No, well, and it's because he's with Danielle. I know that now, you know, and I still haven't found Monday night, which, you know, I eventually I think I will. But that one's still out there. So you listen to the podcast. What did you think about it?

the show. It's an interesting topic for somebody like you to listen to. Yeah, I thought it was great. And when it switched from sort of Canaan to your life, I was not ready for that. I thought this was a podcast about Canaan, your relationship with Canaan. I did too, just so you know. I did as well. I think that's what Tina said too, that in your first conversations, you saw it going one direction. And then the more they spoke with you, they're like, oh,

This is actually deeper and broader than we thought. Which is why the podcast was so cathartic for me was because it was like, how did I miss all of this? What is it that I was lacking or needing or what happened to me? What hadn't I addressed in the trauma that I've had that led me here? I loved the podcast and I didn't listen to it twice just to be prepared for today, although that was part of it. I listened to it twice because I wanted to listen to it a second time.

Frankly, I was more intrigued by the episodes, what, three through eight. Because I love, as a prosecutor with age-appropriate victims, I would always say, look, at some point, I want to sit down with you and have what I call the tell-me-your-life-story conversation. And it can last an hour. It can last eight. I don't care. And the reason I tell them we do it, and it's true—

is that I need to know more about you than anybody else in that courtroom. A lot of my victims were disenfranchised on the fringes, sex workers, homeless, addicts, all of the above. And I need to make sure the jury can understand how you got where you are and understand what was going through your head before, during, and after the event or the circumstances that led you to be here.

because their behavior is not always what we would expect. People who don't report right away, people who report parts of it because they're kind of testing the water, and then over time report more and more and more. That makes jurors skeptical. Her story's changing. So I need to be able to help them understand. But the second reason, or I don't know if it's the second reason, but it's the ancillary benefit, is an extraordinary privilege to sit with somebody, particularly somebody you don't know,

and have them open up their lives and give you the raw story. You can't help but become a more full human being the more stories you learn. And it also gives you some perspective on your own. I mean, my story is pretty...

screwed up during some periods of time too. So it's kind of nice to hear people go, oh boy, I guess I didn't have it so bad. So I really was just taken by the way you articulated your relationships with your dad and with your crazy mom and with Braley, Brent and Sarah, your friend. It really just was a really compelling story and my heart broke.

During that one episode. Thank you for that. I think my heart's always just a little broke. Sure. You know, my sister dying in the way that she did and then the things that happened after that definitely changed our family dynamic in an incredible way and taught us a lot about...

accepting the things that we have now and trying to sort of live the best and do what we can. Yeah. You really don't know how much time you have with yourself or with other people. And I've always said that it's the worst gift because

it has made my life fuller with that loss. Yeah. And it's, it's such an incredible balance to try and manage, but. And, and, you know, I, I can't imagine there's any way it could not change your family dynamic, but you're still having Sunday dinners. And they're amazing. Yeah. And I actually missed Sunday dinner last week and I talked to my aunt and I got yelled at this week. She was like, okay, I'm making hot dogs next time you come. So, you know, it, um,

Um, there was an, I saw something on Facebook. It was an interview between two talk show hosts and one of them was talking about loss.

And he said something like, I embrace the hardest moments of my life. My mother died of cancer. Would I change that? No. Would I change the pain I feel from it? No. Because the pain I feel from it is only derived from the love that I felt for her. It's so true. And I, my dog passed on the 4th of July unexpectedly.

My whole world, you know, my kids are grown now. And so my dog is the only noise in my house. And that next morning I had made a video and just profound grief and tears and pain. And I said, if I didn't love as hard as I did, I wouldn't have this grief. Like it's a blessing to have grief like that because it means you loved someone.

so much that it hurts so much. It's the best worst part of life, right? So getting to have both of those is so important. And with Kanan, part of the empathy that I have for him is

I don't think he'll ever experience joy or true connection or real love in his life. And just the way that his brain works, it makes me sad for him. Yeah. And that he has to do this to get his high. Right. He's broken. So broken and not uncommon. No. There are so many broken people that are so harmful. Yeah. And it's a question of degree. Brokenness is a spectrum.

And just like psychopathy is a spectrum. I was surprised that he was never violent with you. I was surprised that he never stole from you or finagled from you. Right. So he's got an apparent limit to his sort of, for lack of a better word, psychopathy to his manipulation. Now,

Now, it's different, though, because with one of the women, he drank a lot and would get angry. He hardly ever drank with you. Yeah. Which is another great example of him sort of assessing who you are, where your buttons, where your vulnerabilities, you know, how much of myself can I actually reveal to this person without getting caught? And his behavior was different with you than with others. Well, and with that woman, they had seen each other on and off for two years. Mm-hmm.

She's actually an attorney. And she would notice things and then question him. He would get mad. They'd fight.

They'd break up for a couple months, and then they'd always come back together. And with people like this, it's the coming back. Like, how far can I push you, and you're still going to accept this behavior? And I just never got to that point with him where I never went back. So if I would have found out about these other women, and then he would have convinced me that,

That's crazy. They're liars. You know, I love you. And I would have said, you're right. You know, I'm going to stick with you. This could have gone on for years because I would have been sucked into that, you know, the other side of him. Right. What was it you said? I wanted to be gaslit.

I did. Yeah. And I wanted it to be real. Right. Because, I mean, that's why you connect with people. Of course. You know, and it's a very, very human thing to want. And I don't know how you approach dating and connections without having that. You can't. No. There's risk. Yeah. Risk is greater for women than men, obviously. Yeah.

But there's risk to our hearts in any event, you know. Well, and physical risk. I mean, dating nowadays, and I'm assuming always, but it seems to be more prevalent now, especially with online dating, is it's scary. I mean, there's so many things that I do in preparation for meeting someone who

Background searches. Telling your friends where you're going. All my friends know where I'm going. I try and get full names. If I don't get full names, I will figure out their name, whether they know it or not. And I have a fake phone number so that if they try and search my information, they can't find my home address. You know, I meet them in public. As a prosecutor, how many of these things have you...

scene around dating stories. Yeah. I mean, I spent a year in the domestic violence unit, but that was a long time ago. And so that would fall more under the category of domestic violence than special assault, which was my sort of forte. But no matter where you are as a prosecutor and probably a defense attorney too, any criminal lawyer, manipulation is

the currency. You know, an uncle doesn't get the opportunity to molest his niece without

weeks or months or longer of what we call grooming, but is what is really just testing the waters, right? How far can I go? And oh, if I can go that far, well, next time I'm going to go a little bit farther. And what kind of lies do I tell to sort of ensure the insular nature of this, to ensure that it won't be reported, at least not immediately, or that if it is, it won't be believed? Well, it's a long game. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a long game. Yeah. So...

Because Kanan's behavior was different with me and each of these women, I mean, he really honed in on who we were. And that's how he responded to us with his military background. One of the things that my dad has been afraid of this whole time is that he would retaliate.

There is a history that he is capable of physical violence. In listening to the podcast, what do you think the odds are that Kanan will escalate? Because he's going to keep doing this. Yeah, for sure. How old is he? He's 44 now. And do you know if he has any criminal history, criminal convictions? I couldn't find any, and I've done pretty extensive background searches on him. And I've talked to 14 women now, and there's been a few that he gets...

He gets angry and aggressive with, but there's been no violence. Yeah. So I'm not an expert in, you know, predictive behavior or risk assessment, but I've read a lot of risk assessments. I was in the sexually violent predators unit for a couple of years where people who've already been convicted of a crime are going to be released and you're assessing whether they're likely to reoffend. So I've read all those tools. Criminal behavior tends to wane as we get older.

The population that commits the most crimes are males between, I think, 16 and 26. And significant life events will reduce criminal behavior too. Getting married, going to college, being in a long-term relationship, getting a steady job. He doesn't seem to have any of those things. But I would be surprised if at the age of mid-40s, without any violent behavior that we know of, without any criminal convictions in the past, that he would escalate to violence.

The only scenario that would seem to make sense, and again, as a layperson, is if he had some remarkably awesome, stable, long-term either relationship or job and somebody said something that blew it all up.

Right. And so he had created a new life for himself and it's destroyed. I don't see him creating a new life for himself. I see him doing this over and over and over. Well, and he's very willing to move jobs or move cities and do, you know, what he needs to do once he, I think, gets into that corner where it's going to blow up. Mm-hmm.

Before he moved to the Northwest, the life that he had, it was getting to that point where he could no longer maintain all of these lies and all of these things. And so he just left and started over. And one of the things that I've talked with a bunch of the women about is

Most of us didn't use condoms with him. We all thought we were in exclusive relationships. He had said he had a vasectomy. I don't know if he had or not. I know that in one relationship, but it was eight or nine years ago, he had told them that he had a vasectomy and she got pregnant along with somebody else at the same time. So I still don't know if he actually had a vasectomy, but there were times where...

I mean, Danielle and I had sex with him on the same day, you know, unprotected sex. And as far as I can tell, there were upwards of, you know, five to 10 women a week that he is having sex with unprotected. And that to me, as a victim of sexual assault, it feels like assault in hindsight, because I mean, that is my sexual health.

And it isn't just worrying about getting pregnant. I mean, there are so many health risks to that. So the states that have rape by fraud or rape by deception statutes,

Those statutes are intended to capture situations where men gain sexual access through some sort of deceit. A doctor who's saying this treatment is necessary for you at OBGYN and who sexually assaults somebody. Somebody who pretends to be a famous person and accesses you that way. Sex by theft is, you know, somebody, a john promises to pay a sex worker. They have sex and they don't.

There was a trend amongst younger men relatively recently where they would be with a consenting partner who would consent to sex, protected sex. They would put a condom on, but immediately before penetration, remove it. Is it stealthing? Yes. I think that's the word, right? Yeah. That has happened to me. We were trying to figure out how can that not be a

a crime. You consented to a category of sex, protected sex. Because if you consent to vaginal sex, it doesn't mean you've consented to anal or oral sex and vice versa. And yet there was not a box we could fit that into under Washington state law. To be in a sexual situation with anyone, you're vulnerable. I mean, you are in a vulnerable state. And

So then you agree to do things or you talk about stuff or even in the heat of the moment, things happen. But stealthing is so incredibly common. I've talked to so many women where it has happened or sex started with a condom and then positions change. And then you come to realize that during that change... It's gone. The condom is gone. And I mean...

And when it happened to me...

This person was someone that I was not 100% comfortable with. It wasn't somebody that I, you know, it was just somebody that I was casually seeing. And he was much bigger. He was much stronger. And I sort of finished out the night and tried to as politely as possible, say, see you later. And then he left. And then, you know, I spent the rest of the evening in tears. And he

He messaged me, I think, a day later and he's like, hey, you want to go for a motorcycle ride? And it's like, no, like I never want to see you again. That's. So he's oblivious. Totally unaware of how impactful something like that is. And it's it's huge. I mean, that is life altering sexual health issues.

And there's nothing we can do as women. There really isn't anything we can do. And your point about his oblivion is a good one, because if you look at like rape to the third degree, which is the lowest level of rape, but it's just sex without consent in sort of dating situations, drinking situations.

We've had cases where I'm sure you could polygraph the guy and the woman, assuming polygraphs were completely reliable. And the guy would say she consented. The woman would say I didn't. And they'd both pass. Right. Because there's a disconnect. And it is. That's not the only time. I mean, there have been times in my life at various ages where –

The safest thing for me to do is just keep going. Yeah. And then remove myself from the situation as quickly and safely as I can. Yeah. But a lot of that is just literally taking it. Yeah. And then there's some talk where some people will say, well, that's sexual assault. You need to report that. Yes. But also that process is incredibly difficult.

painful, you know, to go through that and then to maybe it not work or that person be prosecuted. And, and so how, how have you seen that in, in cases like, like victims that don't get the justice that they should? It happens. And it's heartbreaking when it does. I mean, in many of those cases, there is no physical evidence. It's, it's the word of, of the kid or of the woman.

But it's also important to make sure that they go in eyes wide open, understanding the risks and understanding that to the extent we can convey it, just because a jury says not guilty does not necessarily mean they didn't believe you. It's a hard pill to swallow. And I don't know how many women actually swallow it. But there's truth to it because we have to prove to 12 people beyond a reasonable doubt. And so they could come away by saying like, you know, we tended to believe her, but we just wanted more evidence.

Is there a process for – we have small crimes at our apartment building. I know the police aren't going to come. I know that I'm going to fix that broken window. But I still report it because I want the stats to show that something happened in the neighborhood. Is there a similar process for sexual assault where I don't need you to go prosecute this, but I want –

you to know that something happened because I think the stats are so low for how many people are sexually assaulted in different ways, including stealthing, because people are probably like, it's not that prevalent. It's not that big of a deal. You know, why would we need a law for that? I would imagine if the if the stats were right, it would become that important. Yeah. If I'm understanding your question correctly,

Anytime somebody makes a report of a sexual assault, whether adult or child, even if law enforcement does not believe that it would support a charge, they are supposed to create a statutory referral.

which gets referred to the prosecutor's office. We generally look at them to make sure that we agree. And if we think that there's more information that ought to be obtained before a decline of prosecution is actually issued, we'll request that. But I don't know in terms of record keeping whether statutory referrals are counted at all. I would suspect not. I suspect the only thing that counts is charges, which is why, for example, when you're looking at

a sexually violent predator, you're looking at analyzing recidivism rates. How do you count it? I mean, if only one in seven sexual assaults are reported and a guy gets out of prison and 10 years later, somebody reports that he committed a sexual assault, is it reasonable to infer that he's committed six others? Right. And you only know about the report if there's a charge. And maybe you don't even know about it if there's a charge. Maybe there's got to be a conviction. And the conviction has to be a conviction for a sex offense. And

And lots of times, sex crimes are pled down to crimes that are no longer sex offenses because of lack of evidence or victim lack of interest in prosecuting. So that kind of record keeping to get accurate assessments of how many of these crimes are committed is really super challenging.

Hey, it's Britt. I'm traveling in Spain right now, so I'm recording this on my phone, but I want to make sure you know it's important to report any experience you have with physical or sexual assault. If you need help, please see the show notes for resources or contact your local authorities. You are not alone.

Next week, I'll share part two of my conversation with you. We talk about safety measures women can take when they feel unsafe, particularly in the context of dating and potential sexual or physical abuse.

You probably think the stories about you is a production of large media. That's L-A-R-J media. Our executive producer is Brittany Ard. Our showrunner is Sid Gladue. Creative direction by Tina Knoll. Our associate producer is Kareem Kiltow. Sound engineering by Chris Young and Sean Simmons. Graphic design by Najela Shama.

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