Dating on Purpose with Damona Hoffman
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the picture on my podcast of my eyes that full picture is my main dating profile picture I am like I wonder if all these if anybody has seen this and been like oh my gosh I think I matched with her you know is this story about me and then they listen you probably think this story is about you I'm Brittany Ard and this story is mine

So you like dating apps, which is interesting because I know a lot of people don't. Look, again, I'm old school. So I come from the place of remembering the before times. And I feel like there's a lot of like there's a lot of nostalgia for a dating scene that I feel never existed.

Right. Because people are like, oh, it was so much easier before. I definitively could tell you that it was not because in order to meet someone, you had to go to a party, go to a bar, date someone at work, like go to church. Like there there was a lot more of an investment that you had to make up front for the possibility of making a connection.

And now what it has done, dating apps have opened up people's dating pools, the possibilities for connection. And beyond dating apps, like when I say I'm a fan of online dating, I consider every online space that we live in. And I don't know about you, Brittany, but like I spend more than half of my day now in online spaces. So to me, it doesn't make sense that we would

change that dramatically in the last 20 years. I mean, if you think like, uh, I've been an Amazon prime member also since 2006. And that was like sort of the beginning of the end of me going to grocery stores and you know, any kind of stores leaving my house. But no, I actually leave my house a lot, but I hate, I've always hated shopping. So I'm like, Oh, great.

I can get something delivered to my door. We love the convenience. So it doesn't make any sense to me that we'd be like, oh, well, we love the convenience in this context, but in the other context, it's the devil. Because I think we are just disillusioned with dating today. I think people have the worst behavior towards other humans that I've ever seen in my personal lifetime.

Our lack of empathy, it's crushing everyone. The pandemic and our inability to gather and connect really did a number on us that we haven't even really taken stock of, I don't feel like.

There are so many factors that have affected not just online dating, but human connection. That is what I think is broken. And instead, I think people want to point the finger like, who's the bad guy here? Well, it's dating apps because dating apps are bringing me all of these options. But it's not the dating apps we're mad at. It's the human behavior. Do you think that the convenience and ease of swiping...

adds to that if this one doesn't work out there's just another one to swipe on or do you think it is the quality of your profile and how you interact through the apps I don't love the swipe functionality I think dating apps worked a lot better when they were I think it worked better when they were sites

Because there was more information. I felt like I really knew my husband before we met. There was so much more information. There were more features and ability to search. So in some of those hot tip for online daters, a lot of those features still are there.

But you have to log into the desktop version. And people don't even know, you can use Bumble on a desktop. You actually can. I know. I know. It's crazy. Because some of my clients who are older are like, I don't want to be on the phone. You don't have to be. I'm taking away all of the excuses. I'm like, well, here you go. Log into Bumble on your computer. But certain features from the legacy apps, and in my book, I categorize all the different

different types of apps because also not all apps are created equal, right? So the swipe apps, that's like the Bumbles, the Tinders, that is prioritized for ease of use. So it's easy to sign up, easy to create a profile, easy to get to swiping and looking at profiles, very little information, very little customization in the ability to search. So it's just kind of like whoever pops up in your profile.

beeline or your cue or whatever. Okay, here's the hot tip. Ready? You can go to the back end and you can still do a keyword search on the desktop site, which I find is more effective than just like relying on the algorithm to send you whomever. Now, of course, I've learned and taught clients how to sort of

not game the algorithm, but how to impact the algorithm with their choices, their preferences, the way they use the app. But the swipe does contribute to a lack of engagement, right? It's not so much, I think...

People are fixated on this paradox of choice of like, oh, well, there's just so many options. There's someone there, the next person there. I don't think it's the paradox of choice. I think it's more that the mindset, instead of clarifying, as I was saying at the beginning, what you're really looking for,

People are in a different mindset when they're searching on a swipe app. They're not looking at the keywords. They're not looking at those factors. It's just like, well, this person popped up, yes or no. I travel a lot, especially internationally, and I would keep my app on because...

Why would I not want to see all the beautiful men around the world? And between, I intentionally didn't clear out people. Between July and November, I had 17,000 people that had liked my profile. And when I was recovering from surgery, I was like, I'm going to clear out and see really out of these 17,000 people, who would I pick?

you know, look at connecting with further. And I got down to like 250 people. So out of 17,000 people around the world, like just basic stuff like location or, you know, I wasn't attracted or different things. I'm like, okay, my daughter and I were in the bed together as I'm swiping through all of these. And I got down to 250 people and I,

I was like, this is so depressing. Like out of 17,000 people, there's 250 around the world. I'm never going to find somebody through this method. And it's, it was just, it was a little crushing. And then I started looking at things like my profile, like who am I attracting to

Is it just people that are randomly, you know, the, um, my dirty little secret is the picture on my podcast of my eyes. That full picture is my main dating profile picture. And, um,

I am like, I wonder if anybody has seen this and been like, oh my gosh, I think I matched with her. You know, it's this story about me. And then they listen. But it makes me really question how I was putting myself out there and the quality of people that I'm getting. If you will allow me. Yes. To possibly reframe this for you. Because you say you're looking at 17,000. 17,000? 17,000.

I was like, am I adding a zero? Okay. You're looking at 17,000 to 250 seems really limiting. I'm looking at 250 seems expansive to me because how else in your life, in your lifetime, if you just think of like how many people you see on the street that you've met through friends, that you've seen at a party that would,

that would clear that bar, right? To be in a reasonable dating pool. I truly don't know how a person would get to 250 without a dating app. So to me, I see it as expansive, but most people are not going to do the work of doing that filtering from 17,000 to 250. So what I do with the profile is I'm like, how can I...

remember I started with marketing. How can I market you in a way where your best match is going to see the similarity there and the other people are literally going to be repelled. They're going to be like, oh no, swipe left. Because I don't want you to have to go through 17,000. I want you to go through like 500 and then you're like, oh good, half, half of these. So

I have done this so many times with clients where like, for example, I did this article for Shonda land, Shonda Rhimes magazine a while back. And the woman came to me and I could look at, they sent me her profile and I was like, okay, out of the gate, she's got like bikini shot. She's got a picture of her out with her girlfriends, group shot drinking, you know, she's, she's clearly got life of the party vibes, blonde, beautiful, 28 years old. And I was like,

Before you even start talking, I'm just going to tell you what I think your frustration with the dating apps is.

You're getting a lot of matches. You're getting a lot of ghosting. You're getting a lot of go nowhere texts and DMs. And you're not seeing the quality matches. And she's like, that's exactly what's happening. So I'm like, it's like they say, dress for the job you want, not the job you have. Right. So I'm like, think about the person that you want to meet.

What would they be looking for? How do you want to present yourself and those aspects of what you do, who you are, in order to align with that person's expectations of what they want? So we totally changed all... I think we did a full sweep and changed out all of her profile photos. I don't allow group shots anyway. I prefer not to have... Unless you want to have your relationship be based on drinking, I prefer not to have...

alcohol, like anything that isn't really aligned with how you generally spend your time or would be a turnoff, potential turnoff to someone that could otherwise be a match for you. I eliminate it. And she's like, this is amazing. I got far fewer messages. And this is what they wrote in the article. She got fewer messages, but she was like, I was telling everybody like, check out Damona's work because the

the quality of the messages increased and the number of matches that then actually materialized into real dates went up.

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Your life work is connecting people.

When you were younger, were you also looking for connections? When did this start becoming something that you wanted to do? Because even your dream as being a casting director is bringing people together, the right people together. So how did that show up as a child? Oh, that's such a good question. And I hadn't really thought of it in that way, that I do bring people together at work.

I think a little bit of that is also about being from different worlds. You know, my parents are from totally different places. My mom grew up in Detroit in the projects, was the first first among the first immigrants

crop of black students to be integrated into her high school. My dad also kind of grew up a little bit of a fish out of water. He is Jewish and grew up in a suburb of Chicago where there were no other Jews. And so I come from like two very unique worlds and those worlds came together and made this unusual human. So what I saw as a kid is that

Even though on the surface things look totally different in my parents' worlds, there really were more similarities than there were differences. And through those similarities, they were able to connect and come together. So I think there's something in that where also part of why I love dating apps so much is that it has given us the ability for our worlds to expand, right?

And for people that, you know, on the surface, you might be like, oh, that person's another religion or they live in another place or they're a different age or, you know, they're in a different community. But through online dating, through other online venues like YouTube.

social media, like when it's going down in the DMs, Brittany, like online gaming, like there are all of these other ways now that we can connect with people that seem like they're in a different place, but really we're more alike than we are different. I agree a hundred percent. Genetically, we're more alike than we are different. In your book, you talk about

you first realized this when you were taking a standard test and you didn't fit in the bubble, you know, like you needed to check a bunch of bubbles to make it, you know, encompass who you were as a person. How have you seen that change over the years? Oh, well now there's so many bubbles. Yeah.

And I like to think I had some hand in those bubbles being created because when I was a kid, it was like you have to check one. You couldn't even check multiple. It was like check one. And I'm like, I can't. I can't check one because I'm not a singular person.

singular thing and no one is. That's the thing. We've all been forced by society into these labels and these bubbles. And as you just said, the bubbles do not exist. There are no bubbles. I know we just got very like existential and meta. There are no bubbles. I have, I have two children now who grow up in a very different world as I'm sure your children have. They, they have a very different perspective and I love,

As a mom, I get to see the world now through their eyes. And boy, does it look different. Their empathy, their ability to understand the perspectives of others, that just the expansiveness with how they look at the world is just totally different than how

how we grew up just one generation ago. And that all makes me really excited. I'm so like curious to see who they end up with in their, in their lives going forward. They're still pretty young now. I talk in the book too about travel, like how you said you travel a lot internationally. Like I, maybe it was me being from the Midwest, like

I didn't go out of the country until, well, I went to Canada, but that doesn't count when you're, when you live in Michigan, but I didn't leave the country until it was like 25 years old. And already my children have been out of the country like three or four times. Like that's awesome. They're getting such a more expansive worldview. I, the reason why I love to travel is every time I go to a new country, I,

You have this thought of how, you know, different countries are from TVs and all of these things. And then you go there and every time I see a family walking down the street in some foreign country that just is so different than my own home,

I see couples that are in love and they're laughing and they're playing with their kids. And you realize that around the world, everyone is just looking for connection and to have that family and that love. And until you really see it, you don't realize that that is what everybody around the world is just trying to do is connect and experience that joy. And I think that that,

We get stuck in our own bubble and our own lives and everything that's happening in our lives is so different or important and it is for everyone. But to have that view that we all just want to wake up every morning and not feel like we're going to work and be safe with the person that we're with is...

It's been the greatest gift that I've given myself was traveling around and seeing this. And my kids love to travel now. And anytime they, my youngest is 18. So I'm at the very other end of this. But anytime my kids are like, I want to go here. And even if that's three hours away, it's like, yes, how can we figure out how to get you out of your area so that you see that

there's more to this world than just what you have in your backyard or your front yard. And I think that's where the empathy comes from in the youth. And I think it's so amazing how social media has brought the world into a place where they can see more and experience more through just pictures and following. And, you know, that's where I see the benefit in social media, where I think a lot of people

don't like social media for kids, I do think that expanding their worldview is so important. Oh, I love that. And I also just love this idea of the quest for love and connection being so universal. You're so right about that. And, you know, I often say that who you choose to spend your time with

is the most important decision you will ever make. Who you choose to partner with, it affects everything else. It affects your family, your career, your finances, your mental health, your physical health, like everything. And yet it's so weird that this fairy tale idea has led us to believe that's the decision we should leave to chance. That's the one that's going to happen when we least expect it. That's going to just cross our paths when the timing is right. And

I bet if you stopped and talked to those couples, you would find there was probably intention of some sort behind most of those connections, whether it's meeting through work or through school or through friends or through family or through an online connection. It's really that intentionality that I think

changes the way that we connect. And so that's, I'm just really passionate about, about bringing that to the forefront of, of people's minds and also like taking this decision real seriously, real seriously. But knowing that like, ultimately I also have this belief and maybe it's Pollyanna of me, but I really believe that most people are doing their best to

Honestly, that is the only way that enables me to move through the world with so much inequality, so much war, so much pain, so much heartbreak. I have to believe that people are doing the best they can with what they have. And sometimes they don't have all the things. Sometimes they're coming from a place of being hurt. Sometimes they're coming from a place of...

just having experiences that have shaped the way that they interact with others. But I feel like people are generally doing the best they can. I am so excited for you to hear more of my shows because I think there's at least once or twice where I say those exact words that, you know, we're

We're all doing the best we can. Sometimes we don't have the tools to do what needs to be done in that situation. But people that are truly malicious are rare. And, you know, it usually comes from a place of hurt. I have empathy for Kanan. I want to know what happened to him as a child.

that had him detach and create this life where he has to be deceitful, where he doesn't feel like he can be himself to find connection. And it's fascinating to me how many people feel that way, that they have to create this false persona to connect

And that's where the deceit and the lies comes from. And like you said earlier, it's a true lack of empathy for the other humans that we're interacting with. But if they deceive and they lie or they create this false person that attracts you to get that love, at some point it unravels and then everybody is...

And everybody is left trying to figure out what to do to not have that happen again. But it's, to me, it's just so sad. It's such a waste of what I think are probably people that really want connection and don't know how to get it. Oh, completely. It's all driven by connection.

a desire for connection, a desire, that core desire that we were just talking about to be loved, to be supported, to be safe. And yeah, because of our life experiences, like a lot of people go about it in very crazy ways. And some of it is, as you were just saying, like not having the skills, not having the skills, not having the tools, not having the ability. And also it's patterns like,

And I talk about this in F the fairy tale, how we will tend to repeat patterns that are familiar to us. This is why we tend to be attracted to the same kind of person. And we're like, why does this keep happening to me? Why do I always attract people that are deceitful? Like,

It's just sometimes it's literally just a matter of becoming aware of the pattern and making a conscious choice to be like, okay, I'm going to take a different path. And I would imagine that Canaan's pattern starting very young that that

What he did to you aligns with a very deep groove in the book. I talk about the samskaras, like it's a groove. It's, it's basically a path that's been worn. That's been walked. That is more familiar to them than doing the right thing. Well, and it's hard. It's where they feel comfortable. And, and,

What I've tried to do the last few years is not be comfortable because if I'm comfortable in that dating, initial dating experience, I'm repeating a pattern. And so I'm, that's why I keep trying to put myself into these uncomfortable situations. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean that in different people, um,

That I normally wouldn't be attracted to, to see where that comfort lies. And if I'm like, oh, this is a little uncomfortable because he isn't texting me back the way I want, or I get anxious about something. I'm like, okay, sit, sit and be uncomfortable. Why are you uncomfortable? And it's because I'm changing that pattern.

and trying to learn where I want my actual comfort levels to be. And it is painful, and it's a little lonely sometimes. But if I keep repeating these same things, I'm just going to end up with the same relationships. And, you know, I was just telling my therapist, I was

Two weeks ago, I was sad, crying in bed alone for like five hours. And I was like, I'm going to be alone forever. This is just ridiculous. And I just need to accept that I'm going to be alone forever. 100% of my relationships have failed. And I was just stuck in this awful mindset. And then the next week in therapy, he's like, okay, how are you doing? Because you were real depressed last week. And I'm like, I switched the way I thought about it.

100% of my relationships haven't failed. They've ended, but I have, I have had really great relationships with really amazing men that have taught me a lot about myself, have cared that I felt safe with, but we didn't continue because of compatibility on big issues and that that isn't failure. It's just that it ended and,

What did I learn from it? And shifting that mindset for me was so key. This week has been so much better. I've been in a much better mood. And it is that shift in language and how I talk to myself that is so important. How do you do that with your clients? How do you figure out how to, you know, flip it?

Well, first of all, I just want to acknowledge how brave it is to do what you're doing. Because a lot of people, they don't want to go there. They don't want to step into the discomfort. And I actually say in the book, discomfort is the feeling of change happening. And that takes a lot of courage. And sometimes people will come to me and they'll be like, yeah, yeah, I'm ready to date, ready to date. And then when I push on that bruise a little bit, they're like, well, I don't want to do that. And sometimes we find courage.

maybe we're not ready to date. Maybe we're also, it's still loading. The new software is still updating. And I try to also, when I'm working with someone as a dating coaching client, I try to give them the goal is not a relationship.

The goal is for you to learn about what you want, what you need in a relationship and who you are. And I also say in the book that relationships are our greatest teacher and they're like a mirror. They will illuminate your strengths, your weaknesses, your growth areas. And you have to be, if you're going to step into a relationship, you have to be willing to look in that mirror. So

I people will always ask me like, well, what's your success rate? And I'm like, it's it's 100 percent. It's 100 percent because my I'm not measuring success by how many people move into a relationship. And I mean, I will say in my one on one coaching, it is about 75 percent of the people that

That actually do the work and that go through the problem that do end up in a long-term relationship. But that's never the goal. It's through the learning that they've received and that self-awareness that you were just talking about that gets them to that place of being able to move into a relationship again.

differently. And it does take mindfulness. It sounds like you're also slowing down. Like, okay, I'm having this reaction to how they're texting me. Let me pause instead of just reacting to it. Let me just pause and see what is this about? Because you can't change the path. You can't

rewrite the samskara if you're not aware that that is the story that's being told. Right. So if we want to get to a different happily ever after, we have to start pulling apart the story and rewriting it line by line.

I this is forever ago. I stopped saying things like I just want to be happy or I'm happy now or in this moment there's happiness and I switched it to joy and joy is the thing that is

I can have joy and not be happy that day. Like I could be having a bad day, but I just have so much joy in different areas of my life. It doesn't have to be that everything is great and I'm happy. So for me, joy is like the word. If this isn't bringing me joy or increasing joy or

I'm, it's just not something that I'm willing to put my energy into. And that was such a huge shift. I, I get uncomfortable when women especially say, I just want to be happy. And that's, to me, that's an impossible goal. And it's this

awful stigma that if you aren't happy, your life isn't full of joy. Or if you don't have a partner, or you don't have the perfect job, or your kids, you know, fail the test, you're not happy. Is there any sort of, like, how do you feel about the difference between joy and happiness?

I love the distinction that you just made. And I also, I kind of want to go back actually to something that you said earlier about that state that you were in a week or two ago. And you were saying that you were never going to find it. The only constant thing in life is change and this sense of impermanence.

And that is what I try to meet each client, each day, each interaction with my family and my loved ones with is that every moment is just a moment. And we tend to...

add them up sometimes to like, we want to just say like the banner here is happy, but you know, there will be some days that are happy and there will be some days filled with joy and there will be also some days filled with sadness.

And none of those things are permanent or constant. Let's hope, let's hope that the sadness days are not, are not constant, but any expectation to even be in joy every day and every moment of every day, I think sets, can set you up for something you're always reaching for. So like I try to just ground in like,

okay, I have everything I need right now and know that there's going to be a wave and a roller coaster. And look, I've practiced yoga for like 25 years. It's funny because I was having a conversation with my friend who's a meditation and yoga teacher. And he was like, the goal is to just

not have too many highs and too many lows to just be even. And I'm like, I don't know. That's your goal. Like, I love to feel the highs, but then I also have to accept I am going to feel some lows. And I, this year, boy, let me tell you, this year really,

it put me through it in many ways. And we're going through some big life changes. We're selling the home that I've been in for 10 years. My mom had a big health event. Like we had, we had some stuff to go through this year and,

And in those down moments, and like if you talked to me a week ago, also Brittany, like I was in a very different place. But in those down moments, I try to just let myself feel the thing I'm feeling and not try to rush through it. I feel like society, you know, you go through Instagram and it's like, be happy. Don't worry, be happy. And sometimes that's not the moment we're in.

I talk a lot about grief in my podcast. And one of the things that I learned, I've known, unfortunately, or I guess I've tried to do is if I am grieving, and that could be the loss of someone I love or the loss of a relationship or an opportunity that didn't happen, the more grief I have, I had the realization that

It was because the more love I had for that thing. And if I don't have the ability to love something or somebody so much, it wouldn't really hurt. There wouldn't be sadness. There wouldn't be grief. And it's very hard in the moment, but I try and focus on how lucky I am to have the grief. Because if...

I didn't have that expanded love or that big dream or that big, you know, I don't know, grief around a pair of shoes that broke that were my favorite. The silliest things it's without all of those joys and all of that love, I, I wouldn't have the sadness and the grief. And it's so worth it to me to have both. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's why I feel like it's also still worth it to love, right? And to also examine this moment as a moment of impermanence and that we don't know what the future holds. We don't know that great love could be

Right around the corner. You could call me up tomorrow and be like, Damona, I've met somebody. You know what I mean? And that's something I kind of love riding the wave of life with.

like myself and with my clients, like that's another thing that keeps me in this work is that like when my client meets someone new and they're excited, I'm excited for them. I get to, I get to be, uh, to sort of be impacted by their emotional journey. So I, I love that, that perspective too. Like I say something similar to my kids when they are feeling anxious or upset. I say, um,

actually this is good because it means that you care. And I think the worst thing that we can have, especially in this time, in this day and age, the worst thing we can have is apathy. Absolutely. It's such a huge minimizer of life that we get to go through this life and make connections and meet people and experience all of that. I love that. And I think the pandemic has

stunted a lot of people at various ages. Kids had such a hard time. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how it impacts relationships moving forward as they develop at all their different ages. It affected each of my children differently. And it's really hard to get them to understand how it affects. And it's

finding new ways to connect with people when they lost formative time to do that. I, you know, one of my kids at, he was 14 at the time and about six months into the pandemic, he's like, am I ever going to kiss a girl? Like, when do I get it? Kiss a girl? Because he should have been in high school. He should have been doing these things that are just normal. And I'm like,

We'll get there. Like, you know, you will. But how impactful that is to this next generation that's going to start dating soon.

Oh, yeah. Like I said a minute ago, we are going to be studying and grappling with the effects of the pandemic for years to come. I don't even think we have begun to scratch the surface of the impact on kids, but also on all of our relationships.

And the biggest thing, the thing that I'm starting to study now, and I've begun doing some keynotes on this topic and will be doing more writing on the impact on communication. So the way that we communicate and connect has completely shifted our

Certainly in the last decade or two, but like really in the last five years, it has changed a lot. And we have not come to terms with that either. Like you were talking about the anxiety around texting.

And that's a huge, this is a huge concern for both my clients and like for my team. I'm seeing it in the corporate spaces. I'm seeing it in personal relationships and I'm seeing it in my clients developing relationships as well.

There's no standard. There is no standard for like, there is a standard etiquette for in-person communication. There is a way to greet someone of like, hi, let me stretch out my hand and shake your hand. And it's different from culture to culture. Like maybe if we were in Japan, maybe we would bow, but like there is a code of conduct. There is no code of conduct for texting. And

it's imperative that we develop it because otherwise miscommunication is going to continue to occur. Oh, I, if they don't do a sarcastic font or emoji or some way I, cause that's how I speak. And in texting, I come across, um,

kind of mean all the time because I'm like no it's it's funny like I'm laughing as I'm texting it but people are reading it you know as if I'm actually angry about something and it's you're so right like trying to develop some universal you know groundwork so that miscommunication doesn't happen is it that needs to be your next book I think so working on it laughing

I thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I do want just a little bit of reality TV show gossip, like hashtag black love is amazing. And how has that work affected you? Oh, wow. Oh, so I thought you were going to ask me about Drew Barrymore or the real housewives, but hashtag black love was, was my first reality show that I hosted and it was really,

For me also, like being a black woman and and being able to address the unique challenges of black women in American society was really powerful and to really.

Show that transformation process to of starting from the place of like, it's not going to happen for me to get no spoiler alert, some of the people to the point of, of actually being able to move into healthy relationships was incredible.

really like the greatest place to start in reality TV. But, you know, now we just have fun like on Drew. You know, I get I get to bring like I was saying, I start I try to reach people with humor and with heart. And I get to do a lot of that on Drew and on Access Hollywood and have fun. But it's it's also it's all coming from this place of

of care and really wanting to bridge connection between people because that is really a lot of what we've lost. And I, I have to believe that it's possible for us to regain it. I love that so much. We're so aligned in that wanting people to connect. And I want people to feel like they're not alone. And I think that through conversation and, and these sorts of things, and, you know, I, I,

I think there's a way to do it and bring that humanity back. And I see that a lot in the stuff that you do. And I, I'm just so grateful that you took the time to talk to me and I really appreciate this. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.