S7 E5: Convict
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In an interview with CBS, Dr. Kathleen M. Hyde, a professor of criminology, licensed mental health counselor, and court-appointed expert, reported that matricide, the killing of mothers by their biological children, is a very rare event comprising less than that of 2% of all U.S. homicides in which the victim-offender relationship is known. Data reveals that most mothers are killed by their adult sons.

and that daughters younger than 18 years are the most infrequent killers of mothers. On average, about five parents are killed by their biological children in the United States every week. When a loved one is murdered, the trauma and grief persists long after the crime

arrest, and even conviction. Murder victims' families not only have to navigate grieving a loved one in a horrific way, but they also have to plan burials and funerals, complete overwhelming amounts of paperwork, try to seek justice for their loved one, and learn how to navigate existing in a world they no longer recognize. I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is Something

was wrong.

I just remember thinking, how am I going to get through this? Where am I going to stay? Like, I don't even want to go back in that home. What am I going to like, what do I do? Is this real life? And my best friend who was there with her boyfriend, who like mom was very close to both of them. She invited me to stay with her at her mom's house. So that night I went there and I quote unquote slept. If you could say that, I think I got like 20 minutes of sleep.

They were so kind to open their doors to me. Like they threw a mattress on the floor and I just tried to crash. I did my best, but I couldn't get the image of my mom out of my head. I couldn't get like, what, what am I going to do next? What am I going to do without her? What am I going to do? How do I, what do I do with the house? What do I do with life? What do I do? What do I, can I, can I get through this?

And the next day came my other best friend at the time. Her mom came to visit me and was like, look, like we have a spare bedroom. You know, they had a beautiful home in Calabasas. We have a spare bedroom. Come stay with us.

And I did. I kind of just hopped from home to home, if you will, that extended themselves to me. One thing I've learned in this whole experience was and is still every day, the more I share, is that no person is an island. No person is alone if they have friends, but also if they just open themselves to like are vulnerable or like, hey, I need something.

Most people are willing to give or be or love. And gosh, that's probably what I felt my entire life that helped me through all of the crazy shit.

especially in those following hours after my mom's murder. I was kind of raised to believe that friends are always family. My mom, the interesting thing, like my mom lost her mom in essence when she became a mom. Part of her trauma too, as she got divorced and moved back to the Valley, she was moving back to the Valley to be closer to her parents and her family, but her mom got Alzheimer's and she basically in essence lost her mom very rapidly. She couldn't even talk, couldn't remove her body very rapidly. And so I was kind of raised to believe

So mom had always had to make her own family. You know, she had two sisters kind of always like argued with one of them and was closer to the other, but she had always had girlfriends and guy friends and just coworkers that she was able to lean on and they leaned on her. And she taught me friends were family. And I think that was one huge saving grace in those hours after, because in these years after, because my family was disbanded that evening, you know, in essence, yeah.

And I, of course, reached out to my dad. I didn't stay with him. I think I stayed with my girlfriend's mom in Calabasas in this beautiful spare bedroom that they opened up to me.

For about two weeks. And after those two weeks, I went home. I went home to like a clean home. I didn't know at the time, but like there were no crime scene services. There are no crime scene services as far as far as I know still, which means like, you know, there are no services that like come and clean them up. So are my neighbors clean?

that opened their home to us that evening had gone in and checked and they'd found everything as was, you know, except mom's body basically and all evidence. And they cleaned up for me. And so I came home to a clean home. That was just more of the community that wrapped me in love and like protected me and continues to. Oh my God, Amy, what you've been through is like, just you're incredible. And like, I'm just so glad you had people who showed up for you.

And that's like, you know, the gift your mom left for you. Oh, for sure. For sure. She taught me how to make those connections, but she also just made so many of those, like so many that people were just, yeah. So many. I'm just so sorry.

One of the saving graces also that week. No, I say that week because in the Jewish religion, we have to bury people rather quickly. I don't quote me on the actual time limit. I can't remember. I've had to do it a couple of times since then, but I don't remember, but it's very, you have to do it within a few days, definitely within the first week of death and as stressful as that was to plan a funeral. I mean like, holy cow. Like, I mean, we had to wait for her body to be released and,

To get the death certificate. Like, other things had to happen. So maybe it was it didn't quite adhere. But, like, we followed the law as much as we could. Like, the cemetery law that she wanted. She'd be buried with her parents. You know, I had to pick a plot. All these things a 22-year-old shouldn't have to do. Relatively alone. I had my aunt, who definitely stepped in by my side. And has. Who's been wonderful. My mom's sister. But the saving grace was actually...

not planning that funeral, but throwing her that funeral, having that funeral and just seeing that funeral was like throwing her her last big ass party.

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My mom was somebody who just loved a good party. She loved to cook. She loved her friends. She loved to... I don't think it was like a show-off thing, but she loved to... She loved her own space. And she loved being in her space. And she loved having her loved ones in her space. And she loved feeding her loved ones. So, like, I loved being able to do that for her. We didn't have the funeral at her home, obviously, but...

I remember burying my grandparents and we'd been to the cemetery plenty of times. So it was familiar to me. I feel like I was connected to her there. And I felt like I was connected to the over 500 people that showed up just to say goodbye to her or to honor her. It was incredible.

Her funeral was such a great reminder, not only again, like a way to honor her and throw her like this last shindig, but it was the community's way of honoring her and just sending her off with love. There were over 500 people that showed up.

There were so many people that there were TVs erected outside. So those who couldn't fit in the rather large, you know, synagogue or whatever it was. It was just heartbreaking, those eulogies too. There was a rabbi that had known my grandparents that spoke and he was like 80, I think at that time, sending off my mom who was his student teacher.

But there were so many faces and so many people that loved her. And I think that that continued to wrap me with so much love and community. And I actually ended up being able to see fraternity brothers that I had hung out with. Her second to last Mother's Day, Rory was in jail. And I had taken her to see a show again. Shows were our thing together. And I was like, hey, Mom, you want to go see the fraternity house that I hang out?

out a lot and she's like yeah why not and we went and like all the fraternity brothers that happened to be there got down on bended knee to welcome her and she was just like in love she loved knowing i had that at school and i loved knowing i had them in her death like they all showed up there were so many people that showed up that either had only met her once or that had known her for years and hadn't spoken to her in like 30 it was amazing to see how many people truly loved her

And that really served to carry me through some of the harder times to come. Another thing that I did to get through, you know, it was hard to be home. I didn't want to be home. You know, I was living alone. I got roommates rather rapidly, but they were not good roommates to have. They were friends from like middle school who...

it was kind of just like a boundary issue. It was like, ah, red can't be paid on time quite, you know, or like they were really messy and there was just a level of respect we didn't have with each other.

So I had to kick them out rather rapidly, but you know, it was kind of like a revolving door still, which didn't serve me that well. But I threw myself into travel. I sent myself to Ireland, like for St. Patrick's Day one year in actually 2008. What is that? Five months later, I was like, get me out of my home. Get me out of my space. I actually didn't even inherit any money at that point either.

Everything I was paying bills from was technically at that point in a state my mom had some money, you know, like that I could just still pay bills with. But I couldn't have any of it because Rory was not convicted. Nothing was happening legally. At that point, it was just stalled.

The legal process, as I will learn as time unfolded, is very slow and tedious. So I did as much as I could to take myself out of it, take myself out of my home. You know, I traveled to Ireland. I traveled to Palm Springs. I went and sold my mom's math book at that conference alone with one of my employees who was my mom's former student. All these people just were showing up and supporting me throughout it. It was people that carried me through. It was love.

I did whatever I could to seek happiness with people I loved, like with my friends, with my loved ones, but I really, I was lonely. I was lost. I had been in a family for so many years that always gave me this purpose. They always gave me this role to fill. I didn't have to question what I had to do. I just had to fall in line, kind of. I had to be that people pleaser.

And as long as I had, I knew what I, you know, like what, what was the argument? What can I diffuse? What can I, then I knew how and where to be, what to be doing. And then as soon as that was taken from me, I was like, oh shit, now what? And I definitely was going on a journey at that point for self-discovery, but also very much for a fucking husband, I think. Like I didn't want to be alone. I was scared shitless. Every time I was home, I was thinking is

is Rory going to get out? You know, he wasn't convicted at this point. I, my life had just flashed before my eyes. Being home alone was scary. And not long after, I think five months after my mom was killed, I met a boy, I would say, you know, we were so young. And,

That boy, his family knew my family, oddly enough. I had never met him before, but my roommate at the time actually introduced us. It turned out that this boy I was meeting and falling for, his mom had been at my mom's memorial. That's how big the community that showed up was. She didn't even know my mom. She was friends with my aunt.

Oddly enough, they had known each other for years. And eventually I would meet this boy's mom and she would tell me, when I saw you that day at the memorial, I just was like, who is that gorgeous...

glowing girl at this funeral. And that sounds really weird, of course, in retrospect, but it was because I was so surrounded and uplifted by people that loved me and my mom that the love was so omnipresent, I couldn't focus on the bad. And I think that statement, I was like, oh God, I need more of this. I need more love. And I dived headfirst and that's the

the relationship as we kind of dove right headfirst into a legal battle to convict Rory. Knew so little about the legal process, which is kind of ironic because my dad was a lawyer. And even though he was trying to be more present in my life at this time, you know, he was getting sober on and off. He was trying. He really was. And we kind of had a better relationship at that time, a little bit.

But I knew nothing of the legal system. He did not educate me. I learned what I learned from courtroom drama and maybe books, perhaps. You know, my mom and I really loved true crime books. So I had only like an eagle eye view of the legal process until I was thrown into it. And boy, that shit is tedious.

Rory was immediately captured that evening, as I said, maybe like the next morning, technically. But God, it would take so long to actually convict him. And it was the most painstaking process.

He was a master manipulator. And you know what? The moment he was thrown into jail for the final time, hopefully, that didn't change. He utilized his master manipulation tactics still from within jail. Without getting too much into the details, he really did whatever he could to get away with mom's murder. You know, he tried...

Of course, he like he'd seen it on TV, represented himself at one point, which stalled, you know, stalled things. He did whatever his lawyer advised. He quit lawyers like he quit doctors, like he quit school, like he quit the military. He had an ever evolving door of lawyers and he did so many other things. I mean, I can't even I can't even get into the minutia of it. But so I went to jail to beg him to stop this shit.

You know, again, part of the legal process is I couldn't have my mom's money, not even my 50% share. You know, she only had two kids. My 50% share wasn't even freed legally because he hadn't been convicted. So technically, because no, like, judgment had been passed,

Nobody had any claim yet. So my mom's money was just floating. I was supposed to pay mortgage from this estate. I couldn't really take money out for any other things. My mom had had a life insurance policy, oddly enough, that was left in my dad's name. And in like this huge moment of clarity, I guess my dad gave me that money. So I was kind of just persisting off of this like old ass life insurance and hoping it could last me until I got the rest of my money. So...

The process was just awful. It was almost as painful as the abuse that he inflicted on us outside. And I got such a tainted view of the legal process from our family's point of view. It took us years to know that Rory would be behind bars.

In those years, you know, I tried again my best to heal. I dated that boy for a while. Then I got married to that boy. We did a lot of traveling. We did a lot. You know, we were always on the go. I think maybe it was because we were probably escaping like my, my, the drama, maybe escaping some of the tensions in our relationship. You know, it wasn't a perfect relationship. And I didn't know that. Like in my head, coming from where I came from, boy, I thought I was in heaven.

But as time unfolded, you know, we moved in really fast. I was alone. I didn't want to live alone, I guess, in...

Gosh, I think I was living with him by maybe 11 months after my mom's murder. And it was because I think I wanted love. I wanted to be grounded. I wanted to anchor myself to someone. But I also think I was searching for mom a bit, maybe because literally his family knew my mom. And sometimes when I was at like his bigger family events, they would tell me stories about her. And it was just kind of magical, to be honest.

But I also think he was, my ex-husband was a lot like my mom and my brother in the sense that like, you know, in some ways, not all the ways, but in the ways like he was always going in one drive. He always knew exactly what he wanted. He was going to get that, you know, and it was nothing was going to stop him. And that became an issue as time went on. And I don't think I realized that until we got married and I started to really try to heal.

After mom's murder, I definitely was looking for her wherever I could find her. I had the beautiful opportunity to pen a few Chicken Soup for the Soul stories.

in which I share like angel visits from her. And, you know, again, like I said before, I take everything with a grain of salt. I have an aunt, my dad's sister, who fancies herself a medium. And again, everything with a grain of salt. Can't believe it or disbelieve it either way.

It's her truth. And, you know, she told me, look for songs from the radio, look for license plates, frequencies. You know, she's out there for you. And so I would find myself doing that. And even though I would get these visits here and there, if you will, I needed something more concrete. And I guess...

The closest thing to concrete that I had experienced, like that was the psychic. Probably about almost 10 years after mom was killed, which right now it marks like the 13th year.

I really needed mom. I was losing my father-in-law and I just wanted mom's guidance. So I remember calling a psychic, making an appointment. I was sure not to tell her my name. You know, she only takes your first name. I was sure not to tell her any other information. I kind of wanted to go in with what I thought was a clean slate just to see what she would say.

You know, I drink my Turkish coffee. She read the grounds, the grinds or the, you know, stains in the cup. She like, she's discussing my future. And I couldn't bite my tongue. You know, I really tried to make an effort to not tell her much about myself. I wanted to see if she would mention mom. And when she hadn't,

I said to her, and I said as little as I could to see how she would respond, but I said, you know, my mom visited you about a decade ago. And her face kind of like went white at that moment. And I didn't really say much more than that. Like at that very moment, I was just watching her. And she didn't know where I was going to go with that statement, right? It could be positive. It could be negative. Like she almost knew that it was like a negative experience. And I didn't even know it was a negative experience at that point. I just still didn't know what the psychic had told mom. So I...

You know, I gave her a little bit more and I said, you know, my mom would never tell me what you said. In an instant, like no hesitation whatsoever, she said to me, I told her that if she kept doing what he wanted her to do, if she kept feeding into his behavior, that something very terrible would happen as a result. And like, I started shaking. I like, I didn't, she...

All I said was my mom visited a decade ago and wouldn't tell me what you said. That was it. And that was her response. Like she knew in an instant who I was talking about, what I was talking about, her warning that she gave mom. And I just broke down. And she knew. Like I didn't have to – she's like something. It happened, didn't it? And I –

I said, yeah. And at that point, I told her what happened. I didn't have to tell her it was my brother. I didn't have to tell her any of that. And, you know, again, I don't know how much she intuitively picked up or not, but it was just the craziest, craziest experience. Wow. Yeah. She confirmed, you know, like from her perspective, mom was still around. Mom is still very much here. Mom is very proud of me. Yeah.

All the things I kind of needed to hear in the moment, but especially like the confirmation. And also it made me really heartbroken that like mom lived with that in her last year or so. I think it was about a year before she died that she had this meeting with the psychic. And man, I, that was just a mind blowing experience.

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I'm going to have to basically fight to keep him in prison for the rest of my life or the rest of his life.

Um, whichever, you know, is longer. And it's kind of shocking and heartbreaking to me still that like, I will have to employ much of my energy, which mom told me to protect, um, doing that. You know, I don't think murder victims ever really received justice. You know, their family member has been stolen. What is there to get back that would ever equate to that? Nothing. There's no money. There's no,

There's no legal process it could ever measure or equate, but I'm still going to work for whatever I can get, I guess. And I'm going to have to, that's the process that victims face it. In essence, whenever he comes up for parole, whenever that might be deemed by the parole board and things like that are dependent upon activity in jail or in prison while he's in there. I,

I actually am not as the victim even. It's really interesting. I've had to keep myself and stay really proactive, staying on lists. You know, he was moved prisons and I didn't know I wasn't notified. I had to kind of stalk him online to figure it out.

And when I did, God, that was a scary moment. Not in prison anymore. What? No, it didn't say those exact words. But basically, that's how I read it. And it was just that he got transferred without my notification. And again, if he was released, I wouldn't be notified either unless I made the effort to put myself on like a victim's notification list. Similarly, when let's say he's up for parole, which I believe is

I don't know the exact date, but when that does happen, I won't be notified or be given the chance to speak at that parole hearing unless I stay on top of that information. So really the onus of responsibility lies on me and victims, other victims, and that's pretty mind-blowing. I remember in the process, you know, 15 to life is second-degree murder.

25 to life is first degree murder. And I'll break down those sentences, I guess I learned in the process. 15 to life, second degree murder implies that they fully did it. They're accepting or they're going to be guilty. They're going to be convicted of murder, but there was no aforementioned thought about it. They didn't plan it out. It was kind of like an impulse deal, I guess you could say. 25 to life, first degree murder implies that there was planning, that there was intention, clear intention before the act was committed.

I was told, and I've been told since by a therapist, my therapist right now who has experience in the prison system, um,

which I have found such a, you know, in all my therapists I've had, I love that direction in her field. Like it's helped so much finding a niche therapist. But she explained and so did the DA explain to me that the district attorney that most of the time when life is part of a sentence, people are not given parole. But again, most of the time doesn't make me feel comfortable.

Especially when he's spent the majority of his life torturing us and has the potential to get out or be paroled at any point. I remember Christmas Eve. So Christmas Eve is my birthday. I don't know why this specific birthday or this day was just nagging at me, but I had to know what was happening with Rory. I remember trying very hard to

to find out what officer was in charge of him or like, not parole, he's not on parole yet, but like, it took me great effort to find out what officer was in charge

had the jurisdiction over him in his current prison. And once I did find that out, I actually reached her, oddly enough, on my birthday one year, Christmas Eve. She called me back. I guess I had left enough frantic messages. And I think this was actually after going online and finding that he had moved prisons. I just wanted like an update. Okay, so he's moved prisons. Was there a reason?

Um, and she couldn't, once I actually got ahold of this officer, she actually couldn't give me any information, even though I confirmed my identity, even though I confirmed I was on the list of notification for all these things. I can't actually get any information. I don't know if, even if he is up for parole, technically, if he's, you know, having bad behavior, quote unquote, in prison, he could not be eligible for parole. She couldn't even tell me if there were infractions that he had had or faced.

All of that is private information. So I basically have to live in limbo knowing that there might be an impending parole date or parole hearing, but there might not be because who knows? I can't know, which is absolutely insane to me.

He definitely tried everything he could from within prison to still exact control over me. And when I was on the outside, you know, so I can't even imagine if he was infused with total freedom again.

I have sympathy for my brother, Rory, and his mental health diagnoses. And I believe in mental health. I believe I'm a mental health advocate. But I think that he used his diagnoses as a weapon. He definitely weaponized those labels that he was given towards us, you know, and...

I see mental illness and mental health more as a journey. We all have our own responsibility of caring for ourselves in essence first. As a parent, it's kind of hard sometimes. And sometimes it's just hard as a person. We get caught up in our lives. But I do believe though that mental illness or labels that we might accrue along the way, they're not for that. We're not meant to be labeled. We're meant to learn ourselves. We're meant to educate.

Right.

So if he was ever let out of prison, oh my God, I fully believe even if he's, you know, spent 20 years, 40 years at any point, if he ever gets out, knowing him, he'll, you know, he's already seen the other side and then he gets freedom again. Oh no, he would definitely try to hurt somebody or hurt me or hurt my, I would be very fearful for my life.

With that said, in terms of personal responsibility and mental health, that was my issue with

And I guess the reason Rory could abuse us for so many years is that he actually just weaponized his diagnoses. There was never any personal responsibility that he ever took in any situation that we ever faced outside or inside of the home. He actually just kind of brandished his diagnoses as a weapon. You know, he would use it as an excuse to,

at school or at home, at work to get out of taking responsibility for his very abusive actions.

And I think that that's the problem with abusers. You know, they will use, you know, anything really. Abusers can use anything to abuse. Anything can be a mechanism for abuse. You know, if religion and children can be weaponized, mental health can be weaponized as well. And Rory definitely, definitely did that. And if he ever got out, I think that behavior would be validated in his mind. If he does receive parole,

He'll have done the worst thing anyone could probably ever do. One of, you know, not to quantify or qualify trauma, but to murder your parent, you know, that's called matricide or to murder someone in your family.

Familiar side, you know, like to do that, someone, the person that reared you and raised you and did everything for you, I think if he ever got away with that by getting out, having served some sort of sentence and, you know, being free again, that would almost validate that he could do anything. And I'd be fearful of what he would do.

I think he was that kid who would have gone to school and shot up the school or he had the access to weapons. He had the excuse for his behavior, you know, which he gave to himself. I'd be scared not just for myself, but for everyone around him. A hundred percent. And like you said, mental health.

Someone's diagnosis is not an ever an excuse for abuse or it doesn't ever justify any any sort of abuse. It's a data point, but it's your brother used it and like he would have used any other thing he could possibly to manipulate your mom as he did anything he could. And like you said, abusers so often do that. They'll come up with all sorts of reasons and excuses to continue to get access to you.

and to continue to not take accountability for their behavior. I am a victim of domestic violence, but even my saying that, and even if I label that myself, and label is a hard word for me, but even if I label myself for that for the rest of my life, I don't think...

that that binds me to any sort of behavior or any sort of issues per se, for lack of a better word. I think it's just for myself to be educated so I can educate myself about victimhood and being an advocate, but also so I can educate other people. Next time.

Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, or by following me on Instagram.

and support at patreon.com slash somethingwaswrong. Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at somethingwaswrong.com. You can remain as anonymous as you need. Thank you so much for listening. They call me up on the telephone But I know that it's They think they know me They don't know me well

You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You don't know nobody.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reid was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.