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slash resources. Thank you so much. You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.
Hi friends. I am super excited about today's episode because I'm having three of my best friends on today. So there'll probably be a lot of laughing. I'm going to warn everyone in advance and I'm happy to have them on so they can share their insights. They all are influencers in different ways. And for those who don't know, I, before becoming a podcaster was a quote blogger and then a quote
influencer before coming into the podcasting space. And so being a part of that community, I have met and made a lot of amazing friends who also work in that space. And I thought who better to come on the show and talk about trolls and tech trauma and setting boundaries on the internet than people who have to do it for a living. So thank you all so much.
I appreciate you all taking the time to be here. And I'd love to start by just introducing you guys. So why don't we start with you, Ari? We can go in alphabetical order. Ari and I actually met on the internet. I think you were my first internet friend I ever actually made that I felt was like my real friend where I was like, is it weird that I like love this person and we haven't met before? And now we have met and we've snuggled and we just love each other more than ever. And...
I'm so excited to have you on the show. Can you talk a little bit about who you are and your background and in what capacities you have worked or promoted businesses online? Sure. So I am Ariana. I am located in the Hudson Valley of New York. I co-own two businesses. One is an event planning and design company, and I own that with my mom. And I also have a little salon studio where I specialize in curly hair. So
Really, my internet presence is selling what I do, selling my product, my service. And yeah, that's
That's my little shtick. Amazing. And you do such an incredible job. And of course, I will link everybody's Instas and all the things in the show notes so everybody can follow and find everyone after the episode is over. So Charlie, why don't we go? Why don't you go next? And Charlie and I actually met through our friend Morgan who couldn't make the call today. She's here definitely in spirit, but we met through mutual blogging friends, I think. And
Gosh, my favorite thing about you is that you love the 49ers. Yeah.
And also that you have an amazing heart and you share that online in such a brave and vulnerable way. So can you tell everybody a little bit about your background and what you do on the internet? Sure. Yeah, I've been, you know, I've always loved storytelling and technology. And for me, social media and writing and blogging were a chance to marry all those things together. So, but it really all came together for me when I started writing about parenthood.
And I co-founded a site that became very, very fun and very big. And I got, I've had incredible experiences because of it. And it was just by sharing my experience as a father and as someone who cares about, you know, their children and have gotten to speak at the white house before it became, you know, a hell spawn kitchen or whatever infested infested before it was trumpled all over is what I like to say. Yeah.
And I've gotten to meet incredible people like you guys. And it's given me a life that I didn't expect. I spent the early part of my career acting and writing screenplays and things like that. And then when I found that I could build my own audience and write my own story, it really gave me a chance to jump off and dive in. And what it really allowed me to do also is have a different career, which was to create social media and
digital strategy for other companies. So I've been on all sides of that kind of table of influencer and client and agency. And I've gotten to fail a lot on my own platform so that I can then take that learning and help other people build communities and build stories around what's important to them. So I've worked for Fox and Netflix and wrote a book through Random House and
written for Fast Company and BuzzFeed and places. But now I do something that I'm really passionate about, which is helping to run the world's largest scavenger hunt for charity. It's called GISH. And G-I-S-H is the Greatest International Scavenger Hunt. And
it gamifies doing good. It gets people to play a game that also, whether you're a narcissistic a-hole who's super competitive or a philanthropic do-gooder, the result is the same. You change the world and you sort of change yourself by doing it. So I've shared a lot about myself on the internet over the past decade. I've had to sort of
re-format some of that. And I'm excited to talk about the side of the internet that maybe people don't talk about as much because I feel safe with you guys. And I have a stiff drink in my hand. And I've prepared for this moment my whole life.
Jill, can you talk a little bit about your background and what the hell it is that you do on the internet all the time? I mean, no, I can't really describe that, but I can try. This is like the question now. Anytime somebody asks me what I do for a living, I'm like, why have I not figured out after like 12 years how to answer this question? So yeah, anyway, I'm Jill Krause and I used to blog.
at a blog called Baby Rabies. And that was just sort of like this random adventure that I started anonymously, like 13 years ago, I decided, you know, I wanted to get pregnant, which was a really weird pivot for me in my life. And I purchased babyrabies.com at like two in the
After I realized like I had baby rabies, like I was like obsessed with getting pregnant. It was like my, this like project, I was type A and had left my job and was having a quarter life crisis. And so I was like, well,
I guess this is my job now. And so I decided to blog about it because I realized how ridiculous I was and was really active on message boards at the time from planning my wedding and then baby message boards. And so it's just weird how this whole...
of my now career came together. It just doesn't even sound real. But yeah, now I have abandoned baby rabies because I'm producing no more babies. Four is enough for me. And I blog at jillkraus.com. But really that just like...
was a launching point for me to be able to do content creation for other brands, to do like freelance digital strategy for brands and organizations, to write books. I have two published books, to sell my own products. So I sell eBooks. So I just do a lot of stuff, but it's all based on my platforms on the internet.
I think you've won like a few hundred awards or something too or something, right? I don't know. How many is it now? I think like four Iris Awards. Yeah. Casual, casual. It's really cool, our group of friends, because we've known each other for so long that we've all kind of grown up on the internet together, I feel like. And that's part of the reason that I wanted to have this
little group of friends on here because I think not only have I personally learned through my own experiences online, I've definitely learned as a spectator just seeing experiences that my other friends and coworkers of sorts in the industry have experienced as well.
Many of us have spent more time online than ever in 2020, given the pandemic. How would you describe the balance that you have tried to find between being online too much or too little, especially when you work online and you can't necessarily just choose to take a break from the internet? I feel like I have two settings. It's either rage quit or complete obsession. I'm just going to be straight up. I...
No matter how many documentaries I see about the horrors of social media or the internet or our addiction to technology, it's hard to look away when things seem like they're on fire. And the problem is I have this intense...
I recently did like a 23andMe and I figured out that my Irish stubbornness is like 99%. It's hard for me to walk away when someone's misrepresenting facts. It's hard for me to walk away when things are misinterpreted or taken out of context and I know the context. Not to say that I'm always right, but that when I'm presented facts and I see how much fabrication is going on or...
how much people are hurting, it's hard to look away from all of that. And if you have any empathy in you at all, it's hard to look away.
in another direction. And the saving grace is realizing that real life, that there are people who are not, you know, posting a status update about their needs and that you have to actually check in on them. So that always tethers me back to real life. But, you know, the state of the world is something that is uniquely compelling in a very terrifying way a lot of times for a lot of different people. And I'm in a category of person that is privileged. I have
you know, less insecurity in terms of just because of the color of my skin or the gender that I ascribe to. And as a he, him person who was born a he, him person, I'm not faced with the trials of people erasing me in the same ways that other people are. And so if you have any feeling or any, if you're not a sociopath, it's a real shitty time is what I'm saying. Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think, again,
I know for myself, creating the boundaries and knowing when I hit my limits, unfortunately, is something I still don't necessarily understand until I hit it. And then it's clear. And then I'm like, I'm very much at my limit. So I'm trying to sort of be just more thoughtful about when I'm in the right mental space to be online. Have you had similar like talks with yourself, Charlie?
I mean, the inner monologue, I think, has increased for me a lot. You know, gut checking what I say, looking at...
how I can be supportive without trying to co-opt too, because so many people who look like me are doing that right now. Self-care also, I've worn out every self-care methodology, I think, that's been invented at this point. So I look to the internet for both, there are terrible things and there are truly inspiring things. And
I think when we first all started this, I remember connecting with Ari or Jill or you and how naive we were to think that the social media space was going to be something where... I mean, the best metaphor I know for this is when they invented the television, there was a lofty goal that now everyone could have education for free. Anyone could learn anything anywhere when the TV was invented. But then we fast forward...
to what TV is now, you know, and I'm not saying like, reality television is is terrible. But, you know, we're they're playing on these intense emotions in a really methodical way to keep you hooked to the next thing. We're binge watching, we're doom scrolling, we're fixated. And I feel it in me and even recognizing it doing something about it is another thing. Yeah, so many good points.
The doom scrolling concept is new to me. I recently saw a post about it on Instagram. But can you kind of explain what that is for people who don't know Charlie? Sure. Well, if you've ever found yourself sitting in a position, either on a toilet or not on a toilet, looking at all the bad things that are happening...
And checking in on the bad things that are happening and then checking in again and just continually, infinitely scrolling through the carnage, the intellectual carnage of people who deny facts, the literal carnage of people who are peacefully protesting being beaten, of fellow citizens of the country you live in.
being hurt for no reason other than the pigment in their skin or the person that they love and continually scrolling to try to find some answer in that. That's essentially what I think doing scrolling is. I think that's a great, great way to summarize it. I appreciate you taking the time to do it because you did a much better job than I could have, quite frankly. No, that was pretty impressive. Two more drinks and none of this will make sense. I can't wait.
Jill, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, but this year, earlier this year, you had rented an apartment. And who knew renting an apartment could be so controversial? Can you talk a little bit about the experience you had? Yeah, so a little bit of a backstory is that, again, coming from a place of extreme privilege here, but...
My family, just like so many families, we were hunkered together for shelter in place. And as a default parent in our relationship, it was really, it really took a toll on me in terms of my ability to balance my career, my mental health, the time that I needed to dedicate to my kids, my relationship.
So it was a radical act of self-care to say, I need a space for me that is all my own for about two nights a week. And here's the thing. There were a lot of people at this point that I knew in certain circles who were renting hotel rooms once or twice a week to go and have this alone time thing.
Because we were all sort of at this breaking point. This was in June when I decided to do this. So an apartment made more sense financially. And I just went ahead and did it. And it was really from a place of needing support.
space to focus on my job space to get away from my kids because I was there trying to work and then parent at the same time. And so no wonder my kids had no idea what my boundaries were. So, you know, it was very obvious when their dad was working at the table with his laptop up, daddy has work hours from this to this. Well, I'm trying to work just like whenever I can get it in.
And they are bombarding me all the time. And it was really stressful. And then I'm taking my frustration out on the kids. And then I feel like I'm not present with the kids when I need to be. I'm not present with work when I need to be. So there just needed to be more clear boundaries in my life and my family's life. So that was the decision that I made. And then I...
knew that I was going to have to share about this in some way just to let people know, because the house and the apartment look completely different. And I'm likely going to create content at the apartment. I was doing a series of Facebook Lives over the summer for a client that I intended to record at the apartment. And so I just knew I was going to get questions anyway. And I'm just kind of the person where my authenticity matters so much to the voice that I have online. And I value my own personal authenticity so much that I really don't
Like, I mean, I don't share everything about myself all the time, but things like that that are pretty obvious, I would just rather be upfront about it.
So I just shared that, you know, I was getting a space and I shared that the reason I was getting it is for me and my mental health. And I was putting myself first and that I intended to not only be there two to three days a week, but also to be there a couple nights a week. And I expected a little bit of pushback, but I actually got quite a bit more than I was anticipating. And what was interesting from that experience though, is that at least two to three women that I can recall who in the comment section were
really in came for me and judged me in a way saying, you know, I get, I get you working there during the day, but why do you have to stay the night? Or like, this just is so selfish messaged me either the next day, the next week, or one of them just messaged me like last month and apologized and said, listen, at the time I was just so frustrated with my own personal situation. And I,
what you had done for yourself, like I was just consumed with how like much that would help me and how I can't do that for myself. And my reaction was to judge you for that choice when really I really applaud you. That's pretty amazing. I think that's really a wonderful thing when people can take the time to reflect, but it takes like a real person to apologize, especially to a stranger who's
where they could easily just, you know, keep it moving their whole life and not take the time to like, let you know that they were wrong. Do you feel like it helped you feel a little bit better about their judgment?
Well, here's the thing. I think once you've been in this work for so long, you know this about people already. So while I'll say like I got more pushback than I was expecting, I can't say that that pushback hurt me a whole lot. I definitely talked to my therapist about it because then I was like had this moment where I was like, oh, my God, am I selfish? Am I crazy for doing this? You know, kind of talked through it.
But I think that when you're a content creator or an influencer or you write for a living online, part of the professional side of that is understanding how people operate and
and how you expect that they're going to respond to this content that you're creating, and trying to understand it from a psychological point of view. So I knew deep down that that's where these reactions were coming from. But yeah, it's of course always good to hear. And then
And then I just ended up having wonderful connected conversations with these women. And like one, like a profusely apologized to me like three times. And I was like, it's fine. Like, let's talk more about what's going on in your life. Like, are there resources I can connect you with? Like, you know, clearly you are also very frustrated right now. So like, let's, let's talk about this. And that's really, for me, the best part of what I do online is connecting.
making authentic connections with especially other women and giving them some little bit of my knowledge or resources that I have in my back pocket to make their life a little bit better as a woman and as a mother. And I think you do it very well. And I think one of the things that people are really attracted to and why you've had so much success online is that you don't front. You've always been like, here's my messy fucking house. Right.
And here's how I cropped it to make it look like I have a beautiful Instagram Pinterest house. I just love that you're just who you are and you always try to do your best to encourage other people and lift them up.
And, you know, I think that as much as I've seen people be really shitty towards you, I've also seen so much support and so much like community come from your audience, not only like the connection that they feel that they have with you, but with each other. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things about the internet is like meeting those people that you wouldn't necessarily meet in IRL, that you have those really connected interests with.
Can I just say, can I just say one thing? Like Ari is one of those people to me. I had this moment. I don't know when Ari, you and I were on a zoom and I just, for some reason, and I didn't, I haven't said this to Ari by the way, guys. So I'm just going to like spring this right now. This is my confession. Yeah. 100%. Ari, like getting to know you and the person you are, like if we had walked down the street, I don't know that you would have,
paid attention to me. And I don't know if we would have like said hi to each other, but I know you on a different level because of the internet and there's something hearing your life and story and also just being able to see your babies. I was just going to say, you're just here for the baby. I hit 100%. You do have like exceptionally good looking children. Like I'm not biased. Unreasonable amounts of good looking happening with your babies. But I,
I just dawned on me the fact that yes, trolling, yes, terrible. The internet spawns terrible stuff, but how thankful I am to have had it so that I could even just be connected to you and be able to follow your story and have you share your perspectives. Like it just helps me get outside of that human bubble that we are in real life, which is harder to permeate in some ways than it is on the internet. For sure. Oh my God, Charlie, for sure. For sure.
But Ari, on that note of like talking about Ari and how cute she is, I'd love to talk about your experience promoting your businesses online because I think what you do is a little bit different in that you typically use Instagram or websites or Facebook or whatever social media site we're on at the time to promote your businesses and your services. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Any like learning curves that you had either like personally or things you saw through other people's experiences and how you make the decisions on what you're going to share and how you build your platform online? I mean, God, like 2020 has kind of been a shit show for both of my businesses. Yeah.
So, you know, like it, it killed any content that I could have come up with because I wasn't doing weddings. All of my weddings got pushed to next year. I wasn't doing hair because I couldn't do hair. Like I couldn't have clients. Um,
But, you know, it's just, it's really about... Is that the birthday girl? That's my baby. Is that Miss Grace? It is, it is. Yeah, she is, she's on strike. She's on sleep strike. She's just, she's hanging right now. It's because she's had cake now. She knows...
What real life is about. There's no returning. Sorry to interrupt you. Continue. I just heard cute baby sounds and I just got really excited. I should have, you know, I should have just put a disclaimer on that. She is, she's doing laps around the living room here with me right now. But everything that I do, I feel like is contingent upon me.
The other person being okay with me sharing it, be it their wedding or their hair, even though I don't really do like faces or anything like that. I want to always like frame things in the right light and this hair has to be in place. And I don't know, it's just, it's all like very artsy, but it's...
It's my, it's my, that's, that's my creative outlet. You know, it's like your space to, to show the work that you're doing offline essentially. Without it, without it, I definitely feel like, you know, I wouldn't have as many clients as I do.
So, you know, I feel like it's definitely, it's a must have thing. Like everybody's always looking to see your work when you're in the space that I'm in. They want to see what you've done in the past and they want to see, you know, what you can do for them or how you can improve upon something that you've already done. Because that's, that's the whole thing. Everybody's always grabbing pictures and saying, well, what about this? And I like the way that this looks like.
But maybe you can do it in a different way for me, you know? Can you talk a little bit about what you've kind of learned through being... I mean, you have so many friends that are influencers that I'm sure you've seen a few things or learned a few things. Can you talk a little bit about what your experience has been from sort of that third person perspective? I mean, it's kind of wild to watch it, you know, sometimes. Yeah.
And you get a little defensive and protective. And it's like, wait a minute, how dare you? If I can sit around and just watch celebrities and keep my mouth shut, why can't you keep your mouth shut? It's interesting because I feel like a lot of times I probably have more insight than some commenters do. But it's never really my place to say anything. So I...
I generally tend not to get into like comment wars with anybody. That's just, that's not who I am. But instead I'll kind of like rally around my friends and offer my support. I'll shoot a text or whatever it is just to let them know that if they need me, I'm here. You are a very supportive person and a very supportive friend. And I think, and I think that,
is a really great point because you don't have to go fight with people on the internet to show your support for your friends. You can simply show your support sometimes by just showing up for them and like letting them know that you see who they are and you appreciate the work that they're doing or the effort that they're putting in. And like,
Like that is super important. Especially this year. Yeah, you're right. Like let's be more kind. I'm trying myself to put more kindness out into the world. So just random. I love you text guys. Like let's, let's make that a movement. Shit.
Yeah.
And yet we connect every single day on the internet. And like, that's fucking beautiful, especially this year. Charlie, you were going to say something. Oh, no, I was just gonna say that I try not to do it because I make it weird. But I agree with you. I think I think for men to especially like we don't we don't express love and compassion as much as we should nearly enough. I mean,
I know how weird – I mean, how weird is it to see two men hugging for other men? It's ridiculous. Like we can't even –
We have to shake and then hit each other while we hug? Is that what we have to do? That sounds super great. You just had a recent... Are you comfortable talking about your recent Instagram post that you got a bunch of whack comments on about Harry Styles? I don't want to put you on the spot. We haven't discussed this, Tiffany. We actually haven't discussed this yet, but...
I saw your posts about it and like what, what the shit was that you, people got mad because you posted a picture of Harry Styles, Vogue shoot in a dress. So yeah, Harry Styles appeared in a dress, which is totally his prerogative. I, I struggle to understand how people can be outraged about it, but people are, people think that it's diminishing masculinity in some way, which is again, ridiculous. I just don't understand how people have the patience to,
Not the patients, how people have the gall to get up in arms about it. So people, I posted something saying the outrage about this seems ridiculous. And in fact, it makes me now want to wear a dress just so you can more easily kiss my ass. And it evoked a response. Not all of the responses were good in terms of support.
I would say they were not good choices. And they were... The go-to thing for trolls, especially with guys, is to call them sort of betas or use gay vernacular to try to take people down because they think somehow that is a slur in some way, which is also ridiculous. And I...
I've just been doubling down. I'm, I'm a, a cishet white dude. Uh, I, a don't need to defend myself to anybody in terms of, you know, my masculinity. I think masculinity is defined however you want it to be, but that the trolls are really trying to seize on the concept that I somehow must not be man. And, and honestly, if I'm super transparent, um, to follow Ari's lead, I should be more kind, but I definitely, um, it gets my hackles up when also dresses have been used for,
by multiple cultures with men. And it's,
the, the, it's so arbitrary to me, but yes, I had people coming after me and coming after Harry styles who obviously maybe doesn't need support, but it got me going because, you know, if one of my children decides to be gender fluid one day, uh, and, or not decides, but realizes that they, they make that decision outright and declare that the, the worst possible thing a parent can do is to see the child in front of them and, and,
ascribe something to them that's not theirs, project things onto them that has nothing to do with them and withhold compassion and love. I think it's a critical failure on people's parts to look at others who are different from them in that way and, and decide that they're somehow diminishing culture. So, um,
It was interesting because I got into it. And actually following Jill's lead, Jill, you really taught me about being explicit about certain boundaries in my posts, which I came in and commented essentially that
you know, I've lost a lot of followers for this, oddly enough, over this ridiculously benign thing of Harry Styles wearing a dress. And I'm okay with it. I absolve you. I release you from having to follow me and go ahead and leave. Seriously, just leave. I'm good with that. And I don't give a shit in any way. So it's so good to say that. Yeah, it does. And I would, if you can also just maybe hold a little masterclass on setting boundaries in that way, that'd be great for me for my benefit.
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If any of you would be willing to share, can you talk about a time where you felt like the line was crossed and you felt like somebody actually made an active effort to either like emotionally abuse you or leave a comment or send a message that was like clearly an emotional attack, if that makes sense?
So I can speak a little bit to that experience. Earlier this year, I wrote a blog post called Fuck COVID School. And it was just out of frustration. We were a few weeks into distance learning. And so it wasn't just as a perspective as a parent, but also seeing my friends who were teachers and all of this like collective, like WTF, like just not
Just not understanding what we were doing, why we were doing it, and seeing how we were just compiling all this extra stress on parents, on teachers, on caregivers in the name of saying, oh, we're going to make school happen still.
So my point of view was sort of like, just freaking forget it. Let's just like not. And let's like let these resources be used for students who really need these resources versus all of us making sure our kids are logging on to do this stuff every single day. And I got some intense blowback from that. That was centered around me being anti-teacher, which is, you know,
I'm not anti-teacher. Like I completely respect the work that teachers do, but for whatever reason, it was perceived that way by some people, certainly not by all teachers. And it became pretty viral. So it was republished on some large sites. It was shared by a lot of sites. I got a lot of traffic. So it was read by a lot of people. And anytime anything goes viral, in my experience, I open myself up to some really aggressive and
volatile messages from people. And this time around, I got my first
you should kill yourself messages in my comment section. Also got like some really shitty private messages as well along those terms. And here's the thing. I was, I was, I'm mentally healthy enough to like disregard that. But what's an interesting piece of this backstory is in January, I was suicidal. And part of this sort of process, this journey I've been on this year has just been like radical self-care because I
of recognizing where I was in January and what I needed to do to get out of that. And so by March or April or whenever this had gone viral, I was in a much better place. But like thinking back about like getting comments like that, if I had published in January, it was really upsetting, you know, and to know that like,
That person would feel emboldened to say that to somebody else as well, who maybe doesn't. I mean, I'm incredibly lucky in that I'm so connected to the online community in terms of knowing where to go for mental health help. I mean, I'm just like talking about mental health is just part of what I do. So I'm aware of it. But like, you know, not everybody is.
And so that was, I think, more upsetting for me, not in like how it made me feel personally, but how it made me feel thinking about that person going on and saying that to somebody else who may not be in as good of a place.
Yeah. I just don't understand why anybody in any fucking capacity ever of everdom would need to tell somebody else that they should kill themselves. Like, I honestly just think like that's hateful and it speaks more to the person saying it than it definitely does about you. But like such a good point that like, you don't know where people are at. And just because you see them online doesn't
mean you actually know who they are or anything really about their life. They're sharing a small piece of who they are. And yes, that piece can be a really authentic piece and you can feel a real connection to that, but it doesn't entitle you to harass people or say hateful things like that just because they do something that you don't like or don't share an opinion that you do. Absolutely. Absolutely.
You can't ever predict the level to which a commenter, I mean, YouTube especially, and YouTube comments for a long time as like a strategist you hear, like YouTube comment basically was vernacular for just the most garbage fire shit you can think of. Yes. The first time I did a BuzzFeed video with Morgan, who's not on the call, but is a here in spirit.
The video came out and I felt so good about it. And I was so excited. And I'm like, oh my God, I did some shit. Like I was so proud of myself. And then I read all the comments on YouTube. And I literally went from feeling like you didn't fail at something to like, you should just die because everyone hates you and you're the worst. And it was like zero to 105 seconds. And I went to Morgan and I was like,
So this, like I went to the comments on the video and she was like, no, never, never YouTube. It's notorious. Don't ever read the comments unless you want to feel horrible. So yeah, I learned that the hard way, but continue. So I had a similar experience where I had a post go viral about, uh,
sort of a male perspective of miscarriage. Men don't often share amongst each other, let alone, you know, I think sometimes with their partners, what their state is because a lot of times, you know, obviously it's not happening to them directly. And I think, you know, for us to be good partners, we
We want to be a support, you know, backstop to all of the stuff that's happening, whether it's, you know, the medical procedures that have to happen or moving through trauma and grief. But I decided in partnership with my wife to write about it because it was something that I think men struggle with how to deal with in as a bystander. It's sort of you're just sort of there now.
watching things kind of unfold and trying to be a good, good, solid person. But you also are struggling because you have your own reaction to it. So I wrote it and obviously I showed it to my wife before I shared it. It got shared around a bunch. I think Ariana Huffington decided to share it or someone of some audience decided to share it.
And I got, for the first time, I got the first, you should go kill yourself. But then I also got, God is punishing you for using contraception, which for us, luckily I had written, I had made a decision to write about stuff, not in the thick of it, because I needed to have that boundary and the sort of like,
force field around me to protect me from my raw emotion of it. And, and I knew that if I didn't do that, that it would be a negative outcome that I would react in ways that would make me look bad and, and just be more than vulnerable. Understandably. That's fucking horrible. Like, well, so traumatizing, like for sure. And, and I'm so sorry that happened. That's horrible. I appreciate it. I think,
I think, you know, seeing someone try to use God as a weapon for my grief and what it made me more angry about what it would mean to my wife, because again, I did not go through it, but I went through how...
having to watch someone else go through it and care about them and care about their state and care about that life that we were going to have. And we were in an area at the time where there were also minimal medical instruments to be able to help her through that. We were away on a trip in a state, which I won't name, where they didn't have certain tools because they didn't want to
touched the concept of prenatal life sort of being taken away. So there were less instruments to be able to help her. And I, I was really angry because she couldn't get the medical attention she needed. But to see commenters like that faceless, nameless commenters come in and say that God wanted it this way. And I deserved it was something that I, it was hard for me not to internalize at some point. And I think that's the risk that we run because,
by sharing anything vulnerably is that people will comment on something that is personal to us. And if we don't have those walls and boundaries where we need them, it can be a bad recipe, at least for me. Yeah, 100%. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around why somebody would behave that way or say something like that. Or even the concept of trolls for me. I just...
It makes me sad for the person in a way because it's so hateful, but it's just like what, what has occurred for that person in their life that they also think that behavior is okay. Like I feel like, I don't know. We, we, I think there, you know, there are a few documentaries about trolls that are really important to watch because they're
You know, the pain and trauma that people have and the bullying that they've experienced, there's definite transference. That's definitely a case for a good amount of commenters, people who are in a bad place and they want to take it out on people for sure. There's another part of it, though, that I think we've really come to understand more in the past four years and the last elections and all that, which is trolling for sport, trolling to influence politics.
influence other people and make them make public sentiment change. You know, the elections have been, you know, last year, last cycle's elections were influenced by all these sort of this trolling of the entire country to the point where a troll themself was put in office. There are people in parts of the internet that
see trolling as a sport and it's a spectator sport. So they'll come back almost like hunters with their win when they've gotten a reaction from people. It's documented in 4chan and other sort of parts of the internet where not everybody goes. They literally make a game out of getting a negative reaction from someone or getting attention from people and it's a sport.
So we fall prey to it thinking that those are thinking, feeling people when they're not. I don't know if any of you have been canceled, but I mean – I should be. I mean, if we're just being straight up. If we're being honest. Yeah. But have any of you been canceled or felt like you were canceled? Like has it ever come to that point online? Jill, have you ever been canceled? I don't know that I've been canceled. I mean, I think I've certainly –
said some dumb things and learned and I hope grown from it. I've been called out. I've been called in, but I don't know that I've been canceled. I've definitely witnessed from the out like
tangentially being attached to somebody who has been canceled. And that was really hard, but also like a super educational moment for me. But I mean, hey, maybe I have been canceled and I don't know about it because here's the thing. I also actively do not Google myself. I do not go to message boards where I know they're
talking about me or subreddit or whatever. I don't seek out that criticism about myself. If somebody takes the time to email me, message me, even leave a comment with criticism, I consider it. I also consider the source. I think part of getting canceled in some ways is
ignoring when people are calling you out or calling you in. So trying to learn from those moments versus being indignant and standing in what you feel is your truth and not listening to input from people who matter. In your guys' opinions, like from your purview, do you think like that sort of cancel culture has its place? Do you think it's effective? Do you think that it can bring about positive change? What are your perspectives?
I mean, I personally feel like that it's not super productive. So, so it's like two, there's two different sides because I can understand that the people who are doing the canceling in many situations feel very justified in their frustration and their hurt with this person. And so I don't want to invalidate their feelings. On the other hand, I am,
believe that people have the ability to grow and learn and change. So it's just like so many things in our life, especially our online life right now. It's nuanced and it's unknown and it's something we have to work through. And I think just the act of saying you've been canceled, it makes it, it oversimplifies it. In a way, cancel culture has been around forever. You could
not read a book by that author anymore. You could stop watching that television show, whatever. I think we need to give people space for their emotions, for their anger. And we also need to give people space to learn and grow and become better. Yeah. Ari, what are your thoughts?
I'm not super, super down with the cancel culture. At least not in this kind of like vocal outrage where I'm like, oh, we can't whatever with this person or they don't deserve whatever. If I just, if it's not resonating with me, if the message is not
in line with my values, which is something that I really had to reckon with, especially this year.
as an Afro Latina as a mom of Black children you know like where I spend my money who I'm following who I'm interacting with like that that matters so I'm not gonna make a big stink about it I'm not gonna sit and like trash anybody online or you know try and throw around weight and be like hey guys we should go after this person but you know I may be only one person but
For me, it's more about like that kind of hit them where it hurts, like the wallet thing, you know, like I can make a statement with where I spend my money. I can make a statement with who and how I'm interacting online. I think that's such a good point that like we can speak up for ourselves and hold people accountable in different ways, right?
I just want to say thank you guys all again so much for being on the episode and sharing your own insights. And I just love you guys all so much. And I'm really thankful for all of your friendships and you taking the time to share a little bit of your heart and your experience. Thank you for having us. Oh my God, I love you so much. Such a fun reunion.
You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.
Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon.com slash somethingwaswrong. Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support form.
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You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You don't know nobody.
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