S6 E2: Predator | Jez
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Thank you so much. Thank you.

Hi friends. I am really excited about this episode and that is because I get to bring you a story from my friend Jez, who I actually met through the podcast. Jez is launching her own podcast here in the next few weeks and I had been working with her closely, doing some consulting for her and she started telling me the story she's going to tell you guys today and it

It blew my mind. I think it's such an important story, especially considering online dating. It's even more relevant than ever. So I'm really excited for her to share this with everyone because it is super important to be safe. And the story opened my eyes to some things that I personally would have never imagined. So Jez, why don't you go ahead and start by introducing yourself and we'll start from the beginning and go from there.

I am Jez. I am 32. I currently live in Denver, but I grew up mostly in northern Wyoming in a small town. So small town girl in a bigger city now, I guess. But after that, I moved to Idaho and then I found my way here. So...

And that's sort of the beginning of the story is just kind of, you know, having come here, not really knowing anyone in Denver and, you know, just trying to kind of put myself out there to meet people. I am, that was also too within the story, since it's relevant, I suppose, is that I hadn't come out yet. So I was still dating men at this time and didn't realize I was gay, which since have, so that's very helpful in my love life, sort of. Yeah.

But, um, so yeah, so that's who I am community. I'm part of, and, um, I'm excited to tell the story because it's, it was crazy and I couldn't believe it was happening when it was happening. So I'm here in Colorado and I'm like, how do I get out and meet people? And I was actually living North of the city in a smaller area. So, um,

You know, it wasn't like I was in a hustle and bustle area where I can go to walk to a coffee shop and whatnot. So to me, online dating kind of seemed like a way to obviously, you know, meet somebody potentially, but also just to kind of get out there and meet people in general, sort of like go do social things, have plans because again, I lived here alone.

So I believe so this was before I think it was before Tinder existed, probably. And I was 25 years old. Maybe not exactly 25. I was right around that age. But yeah, so I remember to on Plenty of Fish, you could see when someone was online. And so I

I remember seeing this guy's picture and he was really attractive. And I remember the name that he had on there, which is Jordan. And all I remember too, is that he was a Leo and I'm a Leo and not that that, you know, means anything, but I'm like, yeah, loyal. Awesome. You're going to be whatever. Cause I'm a Leo. And that's what we think of ourselves, obviously.

He would have been around the same age as me. Like I wasn't, I didn't have my settings to where there was like, you know, much younger or much older than myself. So he would have definitely been right around my age range. So somewhere from 20 to 30.

I'm 24 to 30 at the oldest, but I don't think even I don't I don't even think I had it set up that high. So we just started chatting and I'm a really spontaneous person. So, you know, I and to again, I wanted to be social. I'm an extrovert. It was fun for me to go out and do stuff and have much to do.

So I remember he asked me if I wanted to meet up that day, like if I wanted to hang out later that day, like grab dinner. And I was like, okay, you know, and I do, I will say that I didn't let people ever come pick me up. I didn't like I met people where, where I was going. And, you know, it's always a public place and whatnot. But I guess that speaks to how that can still be dangerous. So yeah.

Yes. But, uh, but yeah, which is important because you kind of think, well, I'm making all these smart decisions. Like, I mean, short of bringing my giant dog with me, I don't know what else I could like, you know, I'm like, okay, well I'm probably okay. So, um, so yeah. And again, I'm, I'm spontaneous. I was like, sure. Um, you know, whatever. Cause again, too, I know people talk for weeks on there and whatnot, but, um, you know, my goal was to get out and meet people and be social. So I told him, yeah, that'd be great.

I remember he chose the location and it was the old Chicago in downtown Denver.

So that would have been like a 35 minute drive for me, which was totally fine. I liked being in the city, so I expected it to be in that area. Yeah. So it was the old Chicago downtown, which, you know, who doesn't love some Sicilian pepperoni rolls or whatever those things, those magical things are called. So I was ready for that. I was definitely down for that. I know I got done with my laundry, went home, you know, did my thing, got ready to go out and drove to the restaurant later that evening.

There wasn't any bad traffic or anything like that. I got there pretty easily, parked and went in.

And oh, and I remember too, we were texting prior. He was telling me he was just like running a few minutes late. And then he said, I'm stuck in a little bit of traffic. Go ahead and order us a couple shots of fireball. And then I think it was fireball, which now I'm like, gross, Jess, it's disgusting. And I also am not one to go take a bunch of shots on dates. So I thought it was like a little bit weird that

Um, you know, and he was like, just order a couple shots of fireball. I'll be in there in a minute. And then, you know, we'll, we'll, um, grab, we'll grab a table and, and get a drink. So it was our dinner wasn't all just meant to be drinking. So, um, and I'm not a huge drinker actually in any way. So, um, I was like, I mean, I could take a shot of fireball and I'll be fine, but you know, I'm not gonna do a bunch of shots on a date.

So the goal was to have dinner eventually. But the way that he sort of said, go order this and then I'll be there in a minute and we'll get a table made me kind of already. I feel like it almost like pushed me towards going to the like sitting at the bar rather than sitting at a table, which then I didn't really think anything. I was like, I'll sit up here until he comes in and we'll grab a table instead of just grabbing a table and ordering a fireball shot, which I totally could have done.

Anyway, so I went in, sat at the bar and I was like, could I get two shots of fireball, please? I also thought, too, well, you know, maybe that's just how he's going to walk it out to that. Like it's me sitting there, you know, so that was part of why I was OK with that.

I sat there and, you know, just kind of hanging out and there wasn't a ton of people in there. And I don't believe I was kind of watching the door. So I didn't like notice anybody else coming in or anything at the time. It wasn't, it was, I think early for dinner, but, um, but yeah, so I didn't, I didn't notice anybody, any guys coming in who could have been this person or whatnot, but, and he was still texting me, just letting me like, so sorry, be there in a minute. So I was like, all right, you know, whatever. I'm pretty laid back.

So as I'm sitting there, there's a guy who he sits down a couple seats away from me. And so not the seat next to me, but one one more seat away.

So and I don't think he came in during that time. Like I didn't see him that particular person walk in the door. So my thought is that he was probably already in there somewhere. And I don't know if you've ever been in an old Chicago, but they're like big enough that you could be in there somewhere and not be visible just exactly from the bar. So so I think he was probably already there.

So he sits down and he starts, he's like, he's like, what do you, what do you got there? You know, like I've got two shots of fireball in front of me. I'm like, well, I am waiting for somebody. So, and he was, he was nice. He wasn't like, he definitely wasn't unattractive. And I say that, I guess, just because it's notable that he was attractive enough that I think,

that he would have been attractive to a lot of women, I guess. That's sort of what I'm trying to get across. And he was really nice. You know, he just started chatting with me. And, I mean, we just...

talked about, you know, kind of some random stuff. And I was, it was like five and 10 and 15 minutes goes by. And I'm still like, I'm still texting this person or he's still sending me texts to let me know like, oh, and then I think he said he got pulled over, which I was kind of like, well, okay, first of all, if you're stuck in traffic, how are you driving quickly anyway? But

But like, how are you speeding? It was just kind of going on and on. And I don't think I've ever actually been stood up before. So it wasn't like my thought was immediately like, oh, my God, he's not going to come. He's not going to show up, you know. So I wasn't really that worried about it. But I did think it was weird. I remember thinking it was weird because, again, I drove in from north of Denver, which, of course, I didn't know what direction he was coming from. But I mean, I was on a main interstate to get to where I went. And I...

I'm I 25 and I didn't see anything crazy happening in either direction. So it was kind of like, like, where is he at? But he's like stuck in so much. So anyway, so probably like, I don't know, maybe like 10 or 15 minutes had gone by and the bartender, um,

Um, he was like, I'm just going to go ahead and put these in the, in the cooler, like keep cold, like the fireball shots, which I will say one thing I noticed right away as I was like, he was super duper. The bartender was very, very attentive, really, really nice. And so was the waitstaff. Um, one person in particular, one girl in particular, they were just like checking on me a lot and, you know, which I thought was,

a little odd because I wasn't sitting at a table, you know, so, but this waitress was chatting with me every time she like walked over like, Oh, cool. Are you like, just, just kind of chatting with me a lot. I just noticed that they were they were very attentive. And

And again, this guy next to me and I are just having a pretty normal conversation. And I'm realizing now, I'm like, I don't think this dude's going to come here. Like, I think pretty much, I think I'm probably being stood up right now. And so, and again, I mean, I literally was getting texts from him while I was sitting there. I tried to call him and he

The number was no longer a working number, which was really weird to me because I was like, how is that thing? Like I was just texting with you, but like I didn't I was like, OK, well, that's just weird. And I didn't know what to think of it. I had just figured that I don't know what was up with this dude, but he's not coming. But it didn't really upset me that the guy stood me up.

I don't know what that would have felt like for some other people, but I know that I wasn't like overly upset about being stood up. I was just like, well, whatever. I'll just eat dinner. You know, like I'll just have dinner here.

So, and as I'm chatting with the guy next to me, you know, he's like, Oh, that, that really sucks. Like, he's like, well, do you want to grab a table? Like, you know, how I'm happy to buy you dinner. Like, you know, because again, I just been stood up. I just remember this guy was really friendly and he wasn't, he didn't give any bad vibes. He wasn't, he didn't seem creepy or anything. And one thing that I will say is that I feel like I have a very strong, a strong intuition when it comes to

people in terms of like, if you get bad energy from somebody or whatnot, I really try to pay attention to that. Anyway, so so he was just a friendly guy. And it was really nice that he offered me dinner. And I was like, that's so nice of you. But like, I'm totally good. I'll buy my own dinner. It's, you know, not a big deal. Oh, yeah. And then he asked if he could sit next. He's like, Do you mind if I move the seat like over here? So like one seat closer, which would be the seat right next to me. I was like, sure, whatever.

So we'd been sitting there for probably, I don't know, maybe 30 minutes or something. And I had to go to the restroom. So I was like, do you mind if I leave my person coat here or whatever? And I had my purse on the back of the chair with my coat over it, I think. So it wasn't like it was out in the open. But I also now I'm like, I wouldn't do that. But when I'm younger, I was like, oh, it'll be fine. So anyway, so I went to the bathroom and the server comes in and she's like, I have to talk to you.

And I was like, okay. I mean, and I remember I'm just like always trying to make a joke. So I remember, I think I even said to her, like, I was like, I feel like it's early on in our relationship for a conversation to start that way, but okay. Like, but she was not happy. Like, it was not funny. Like it was like for her, she was like, she was, I'm laughing because this is how I cope. Like totally. I'm just that. Yeah, exactly.

It was just a weird situation. And I'm, you know, so I was like, but she, as funny as I think I was, you know, and you think, but like, she was like not amused. She was not, she was like not okay. And then when I took a second to like look at her, I realized that she was genuinely experiencing like fear or something really, something she was really, she was genuinely upset. She wasn't crying or anything, but she was like,

She was in sort of almost like a panicked state. Like I hadn't even made it to a stall in the bathroom yet. Like that's like she came in like right after me. And so she's like, I have to talk to you about that guy. And I was like, what guy? Because I was like, he stood me up. And she's like, no, not that one. The one sitting next to you. And I was like, okay. And I just like kind of got like this sinking feeling of like, she goes, okay, this is going to sound crazy.

But whatever reason you're here, it's because of him. He got you here. He's the one he's the reason why you're here. And I was like, what the fuck do you mean? Right. I was like, because I was all of a sudden like horrified, but also like confused. And she was like, OK, so over and I don't remember how long she said, but it was it sounded like a period of maybe weeks or I don't I don't even know how long. But but definitely frequently enough that it was a pattern clearly that they recognized.

She's like, people will come in and they're either like, you know, waiting to meet like a new, a potential roommate or, you know, they're, they're waiting for a date or, you know, something like that. And they always order two shots of fireball and he always sits down two seats away from them and the person never shows up. And what happens typically, and they said, it's usually, you know, somebody who gets stood up by a date and he offers to buy them dinner. And most of the time they go sit with him and have dinner.

And I was like, okay, this is already just horrifying. But also too, I knew there was more to what she was saying because she was more terrified than just like, this is a creepy way of hitting on people. So I was like, what? Like, what the fuck? Like, the dude wasn't hideous. Like, I was like, why wouldn't he just put his own picture up and stuff? Like, that's crazy, you know? And it was horrifying to me because I realized I was sitting next to a person who like,

I didn't pick up any of that from, which really kind of freaked me out too. But she's like, okay, here's the thing. You're the first, a lot of times, like the girls are pretty upset about it. And usually they go have dinner with him. And also too, like they, we serve them drinks, like, because obviously they're ordering them, but at some point, and she said something like to the effect of like, it seems like they're getting more drunk than they should be. If that makes sense. Like basically like,

Like it was sort of implying like, I don't know if he's like, if it is just that they're, you know, have, I don't know, low tolerance for alcohol. I'm not sure. But she sort of implied that like, they were not very, they were not sober by the time that they were. They were more intoxicated than they should be based on the number of drinks served, essentially. Yeah. And yes, thank you. That was exactly what I was trying to say. Yeah.

I mean, who knows that might just be perception from somebody. But but I mean, I also, too, I'm like, I'm not going to ignore what she's saying. You know, this is a big deal. And I'm like, wait a second. So you're telling me that this dude gets people here, uses not his own information, pretends like, you know, he's like, hey, I'm going to, you know, save you from this sadness because you just got stood up and then offers to buy them dinner. And they usually sit down and then

They end up leaving with him most of the time. And she's like, yep. And she's like, it's never the same person ever. So it's not like the guy shopping for girlfriends. And she was...

I don't even know how to fully explain it. It just was like, she knew it was really bad and she had seen it before. Like she had seen the progression of that and what that experience was for those women who were, you know, having that interaction with him. So I think she had more of a real, a real idea of, I think she felt like, and at this point I believed her that this was like a

a predator of some sort. Like he was, he was not doing this to just buy someone drinks. And, you know, it was, it was potentially a very dangerous situation for those women. I,

I believe her. I believe what she's saying. And if that's the impression she's gotten from things that she's seen, I'm going to take her word for that over this guy who has already lied to me before I ever walked in the door. This season, Instacart has your back-to-school. As in, they've got your back-to-school lunch favorites, like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back-to-school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow.

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this had been on her mind and her heart. Right. That kind of gut feeling doesn't lie, in my opinion. No. And I could tell that she was not by any means. And I trusted that. I mean, and also too...

You know, she's like, that's why we've been like paying attention, so much attention to you and like me and the bartender. Like we've seen this, like we've never actually been able to speak to one of the girls because they also haven't been like super sober by the time that, you know, we would even have a moment to try and talk to them. And because we don't really have any proof of like what he's doing, it's not like there's something, you know, like they were doing the most that they could to try and like protect women they felt were vulnerable.

at risk, essentially. Like when he chilled the shots. Right. That's such a smart move. Totally. And that is absolutely why the bartender did that and everything. So and then I was kind of thinking I was like, I mean, yeah, because the guy had been like, well, let me buy you another drink. Let me you know, or let's all take that shot with you. Or like he like he wanted me to drink more, you know, and I kept being like, I'm good. Thank you. Like, I'm fine. I'm good. And I'm not a big drinker, you know, so like, I was only even ordering the shots because the guy had said that. But

she's like, he always knows who they are because they always order two shots of fireball. He always sits in that same place, like a couple seats away from them. And she just was like, I just, I don't, I don't know what else to say, but like, I don't know what he's doing, but it's not good. And I was like, that dude has my fucking purse, my ID and shit in it. Like, which I wasn't worried about the money. I was worried about like my address. Cause I'm like, what kind of psychopath does this? And here's the other part of it is like,

I really, truly did believe her because just like you said, she was being honest and she saw something that was... She was afraid enough to go up to a stranger and have this very awkward, difficult conversation with somebody. I immediately felt this sense of just like... I mean, I remember just like a feeling of like dread and like kind of like fear just kind of... It just like went through my body. Like I immediately got just like chills in the worst way of like, what the fuck is happening? Because the other thing is...

I have met a person who was a sociopath before and that person in my life was caused me harm. I'm like, so I think one of the most dangerous things about people like that. And I don't know if this guy, I mean, you know, not, I'm not,

A psychologist, I can't diagnose him. But but I mean, people like that who are capable of doing those things, they don't admit they don't put off feelings and emotions and energy. And that's one of them. In my opinion, that's one of the most dangerous things about them is that they can be whatever you need them to be or want them to be and not give you any kind of bad vibes.

because they're not really giving vibes at all. And so, you know, that's something that that also came to mind. And again, that's my, I think, I don't know that everybody's head would have gone there. That's some of my own personal experience, but I was like, okay, that really bothers me that I didn't sense anything too. Like, because to me that that's a more dangerous kind of person. He just didn't seem like harmful at all to me. He just was not, I don't know. He just didn't come off in any kind of creepy way.

Which is why I felt comfortable like walking away from my purse and like letting him sit next to me because usually to I mean, and I didn't let him buy me a drink or anything like that. But but usually I I don't let people buy me drinks often unless I am there with them or going to spend time.

time with them in terms of like if I'm attracted to them or not. Because I just don't think I just think it's the nice thing to do to not accept drinks from somebody. If you feel like they're trying to kind of get to know you on another level, and you're not interested. But anyway, so I'm like, okay, this guy's out there. And if he is the worst case scenario, which like,

who knows, but this doesn't sound good. And the fact that he's lying to get someone somewhere waiting until they are, you know, upset and then taking advantage of that situation, like the chances of that being a person who had bad intentions to me was a lot higher. So I, I was like, okay. And my kind of like my own sort of

survival instincts of like, okay, so I can't go out there and just say something. I can't like, cause I don't know how dangerous he is too. Cause I was like, what do I do? She's like, I don't know. And then I started kind of going through those things. I think we walked out of the bathroom at the same time or she walked out just a little bit before me. So she was still there, but I was like, okay, I can't act.

like I know because also too what if that dude has what I mean I literally just left my purse out there so that created a different situation because I don't know if he looked at my ID or something and that does have my address and stuff and again I realize that to some people that might seem like an escalation in your own head of like okay that's probably not going to happen but do you think I always say to people

When people have that reaction, do you think any of the people who've ever had anything like that happen to them thought it would happen to them? Like, do you think any of them thought that? Like, none of them thought that. None of them thought some psychopath was going to follow them home and murder them or like rape them or whatever it was like. Like they nobody who is a victim of that, you know, of some, you know, stranger doing that to them knows that that's going to happen to them.

When you're an honest person, you're young, you don't have as much experience, maybe you haven't dated much or whatever your life experience is, you're not thinking that somebody's going to be doing something dishonest in this way. Also, online dating at this time was still relatively new. Mm-hmm.

And what stands out to me is like the, that the waitress said, even for him using like Craigslist about roommate ads and picking up with people there. So again, it's like getting people there and they could not even be thinking that they're going into some sort of like romantic situation at all. Right. But yeah, the behavior is extremely concerning. That's actually, I think what you said is really important to understand because not everybody, like had I not had certain experiences in my life,

I would not have gone there in my head. I would not have thought about the fact that my ID was in my purse sitting next to him. I would not have thought about the fact of like, okay, it might really upset this person if I let them know that I know they're creepy. That is super... What you just said, I think is really, really important because people need to understand that

I had an advantage in that weird way because of traumatic experiences earlier in my life. I understood the danger of a person like that. And I, prior to that, never did. I never would have. I, like you, thought I was invincible. And I learned in the worst way that I was not. Well, not the worst way because I'm still alive. But I definitely learned in a difficult way that I was...

I was not immune to those types of predators and nobody is. And that is so important because, again, I had an advantage that other people didn't like might not have, you know, and that's sort of a weird way of looking at it. But but that's why my head went to where it went so fast, because I was like, OK, this is bad.

This is not good. This could be really bad. And maybe he is just a creep. Maybe he's just a creepy guy who doesn't feel super confident. And like, that's I get that, like putting yourself out there. That's hard. I'm not trying to pretend like, you know, that's easy. But this guy is being dishonest and he's taking advantage of people who are in an unfortunate situation or even a disappointing situation, maybe emotionally as well.

depending on what they're there for. So yeah, I definitely think that's something people should think about is you might not have that feeling sweep over you when someone says something like this to you, but you need to pay attention to what's happening in terms of if someone tells you that this is happening, like,

you shouldn't brush that off and you shouldn't think the best. You should think the worst because you don't know this person. You have nothing to lose in terms of getting away from this person in a safe way, but you potentially have something to lose by not taking that information seriously. So if that's, I guess, any piece of...

little nugget I can offer, it would be that, that, you know, in that way, that's why that happened. And I was immediately really, really terrified. I was like, okay, so I don't know now. I don't know if he has my address, which is great. I like probably not like, you know, probably didn't grab my wallet out of there. I left my drink sitting next to him.

He's been trying to buy me drinks and I haven't been accepting, but he's been pretty insistent on it. It hadn't gotten to a point where it was overbearing, but it's just like behavior. I started to notice a lot of things.

I don't want to let him know I know because if he is dangerous, that's like going to be a worse fear of his is that somebody figured out that he's, you know, like dangerous in some way. Then you become a threat to him. Right, exactly. And so I was like, okay, I really can't just, I need to reject him in a normal way. Yeah.

Whatever way that looks like where he doesn't know that I know what's going on. And also make sure that I am actually get myself away from him. But I knew that meant that I had to go sit out there next to him and I couldn't just grab my shit and leave, you know, so I went out there and I didn't I was like, I don't really like this drink. I'm just gonna get like an iced tea or something. I don't remember. Because I don't know my drinks been sitting next to him.

And he kind of seemed a little irritated, I noticed. Because again, now I'm paying attention to everything that's happening. But he's like, so come on, let me buy you dinner. And I was like, I'm good. I'm going to buy myself dinner. It's okay. I appreciate it. But no, thank you. And he was like, all right, well, cool. Well, let's like, how about after... So I ordered...

Sicilian pepperoni rolls, obviously. Tiffany, that's what I ordered. Obviously. Obviously. So I ordered that and I sat there and pretended like I wasn't terrified and just kind of, you know, like I was just sitting there and I was hoping he would just like get bored with trying because he wasn't succeeding in getting me to drink or to go sit at another table with him. But he it was like he kind of got agitated after that. He started saying, well,

he's like, how about, you know, when you're done, let's go. There's, they have these lemon drops down the street at this, this other place. Like they're really good or something like that. I want to say it was lemon drop. I don't even know. I'm like just a regular martini, please. I'm good. I don't know what a lemon drop is, but, uh, but anyway, so he's like, you know, they have this, they have this down the street. Like, it's so good. Like we should go there. And I was like, I'm good. Like, you know, thank you. That's nice of you. And he's like, come on, like, you know, you're here anyway. Like you're going to eat, like, let's just go do that. And I was like,

I'm good. Thank you. I'm not going to go. He was like, OK, well, this other place across the street. And like he literally I think it thought of at least two other places. And he was like getting it was like he was he was putting in a whole lot more effort to try and get me to go somewhere else rather than just sitting at that bar and eating my pepperoni rolls.

And so then, you know, I was like, how do I also get him to think I'm not going to walk out of here by myself in a situation where he can –

follow me. Because again, now it's dark out and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. Again, I'm like worst case scenario at this point. And so I'm like, how do I do that in a way where he doesn't think I'm going to be alone? Because I am alone and I live alone. And I was like, oh yeah, I actually just talked to my friend a minute ago. I think I was pretending to text

Oh, and here's the other creepy thing that I thought of. That dude sitting next to me was the one texting me. I realize that that is obvious now at this point in the story. I was going to ask you about it. I wrote it down. I'm like, wait, was he texting you and you just didn't connect the dots at the, you know, like you're both just looking at your phones kind of a thing? No, he either had like some other, cause he had his phone out and like, I don't,

I wasn't paying close attention, but his number isn't all of a sudden going to be disconnected if he was texting. Also, his phone would have rang if it was like – because I called it. I called the number I had, remember? So I don't know. And the other thing the server told me too. Sorry, I keep remembering things. She's like, he never gives us a credit card. He always pays with cash. We don't know who the fuck he is. Red flag, red flag, red flag. Exactly. I'm like, if you're just a creepy dude, you might not want to –

advertise it, but you're not going to be like afraid of somebody knowing your identity. Like all these things are just like, I was like, wait a second. So when I was fucking sitting here, this motherfucker next to me was the one texting my ass back. That is fucking crazy. I was just like, this is nuts. Like I, and it was horrifying, but it was also just like,

fuck. I don't even, it was just what the fuck? Like, that's just, you know, how I felt. Who does that? Like, what is even happening? And who does that? Like, yeah. And also how the fuck did he do that? Like, you know, that's like, is that a burner phone? I mean, I don't know. I don't deal drugs, but maybe that's how they work. I'm not sure. Like maybe he was like on one and then he like, you know, didn't, didn't turn like he, or he like turned it off then after a minute or he, and I don't know. I know at some point people used, you can use different things over the internet to be able to, to,

to mimic a certain number, but I don't know how that works with like calling. I don't know how that works. I don't know. I don't know enough about it. And honestly, I don't even know if that was a thing that was like people were like a, like something that people were able to use at that point. That makes sense. You know, I'm talking about like where they use a, yeah, now you can do like, you can get a phone number in 30 seconds through Google voice and set it for free. And you can just start texting somebody from that number.

Right. Before, I think when people would catfish, they had to have, like you said, a secondary burner phone, which is where you can just walk into a 7-Eleven, purchase it and add minutes or whatever. Right. And so I'm thinking this guy had to have a second phone that I didn't see. He was sitting two seats away from, and again, I wasn't paying close attention to him at first, but still, I don't think the guy had his phone.

fake phone out like or a second phone out texting me back you know he certainly had it turned off or something or I don't know by the time that I tried to call but I'm just like that dude was sitting next to me saying that shit that it just all of it just kind of it just kept in waves being like holy shit this is bad

So he, you know, he'd asked me about like going to, or then he said he had like this, he invited me, he said that there was like some party going on or whatever. And I remember him saying that it was like, it's like, oh yeah, there's like this rooftop party, which now I'm like, why? Because you want me to walk in a building with you? Like,

Like, I don't know. I just, all the worst things. The fact that he's like still not picking up on the fact that, bro, I don't want to go anywhere with you. Yeah. Hello. And the fact that it wasn't even just like, not that it's okay if someone's just being persistent, but the fact that I could tell he was agitated, that really bothered me too. So, you know, I was, again, I said, you know, to myself, like, how do I get out of this? How do I make him think I'm not walking out of here alone? Yeah.

And so I was pretend I was like, I was actually texting somebody, but not what I was saying. I was texting. I was I was like, oh, sweet. My friend's going to meet me down here.

And he was like, well, how about like we go down to this other place and then you can tell him that that's where we are and meet us there. And like then it was all about like, why don't I have my friend meet us at this other place? But it wasn't here and then we'll all go somewhere together. It was he still wanted me to go somewhere with him first. And he's like, when are they coming? I was like.

I don't know. And then I was like, it'd be weird if I didn't start acting kind of like, what the fuck, dude, back to him. So again, I'm like trying to be a sociopath. Just kidding. I'm trying to like, I'm trying to like act the way I think I should be acting in this moment for not knowing, you know what I mean? And I was like, still irritated with the fact that he's not listening. Right. And like, dude, I don't know. Like, I don't know when she's coming. And he was like,

Well, I think he said one more time to go to that other place that was like for for lemon drops or something. And I just looked around. I was like, I'm not going with you. Like, dude, like it's been cool, like hanging out. But like, I'm I'm good. I'm cool. I don't know when my friend's coming. I'm not going to go grab a drink somewhere else with you.

And, and that was like, like the inside of my body was like, Oh my God, don't wait out to sign to murder me later. Like I was just like, not, but I mean, I couldn't let him know that, you know what I mean? And again, I had to act like, what would a irritated me look like if I didn't know that he might be a murderer or not murderer, probably like, you know, something, maybe, I don't know.

I was, I did my best that face, whatever that is. And he, um, he got really pissed. And I remember actually right before he actually, the last time he asked, he was pissed. He was like almost more telling me, he was like, he's like, just meet me like, or let's just go down here and then she can meet us there. Like, let's just do that. And like, so it was like, he was like telling me what to do at that point. And that's when I snapped back at him and he was just, I could just tell that he was like, not pissed.

Like he was not pleased. And, but I just like kept looking at him like, dude, like what's your deal? And he was like, fine, whatever. And then he just left. He just walked out. And I was like, Oh my God.

Like, and so then of course, like the server comes over to me and like the bartender and they're like talking to me. I was like, Oh my God, that's so scary. And you know, I, I was just like, I remember I was like shaking at that point and just like, I sat there, I think for hours, like probably like four hours. Cause I'm like, I'm not walking outside right now. Like, you know, and I mean, he's not going to come back in here. I'm not going to walk outside right now. And it was really nice. Actually. They, they bought my dinner, which was more,

Sicilian pepperoni rolls. And, and they were like, you know, yeah, hang on as long as you want. Like, and then when I left later that night to Johnny, the bartender walked me to my car to make sure that there was nobody out there. And I was like, you guys are good people looking out for other people. And I really appreciate that. So, and I just remember, I was like, I felt so much safer because this huge bartender dude who was like, clearly an awesome dude was like, I'm not going to let this guy fuck with you. Like,

And I was still scared, like, you know, but I, cause I was like, I don't really know where the dude is and I don't really want him to know which car is mine. And I don't really, and who the fuck knows? I have no idea, you know? So anyway, by that point I figured I was probably, I was probably okay. But, um, and, and I was, I'm here. I did actually try to call the police and I said, I don't, and I didn't call 911. I remember I just like called and I was like, I don't know who to talk to about this, but I feel like it's like sort of

behavior that I just want to like let someone know about like that this you know I don't I don't know I just was trying to do something like I was trying to do the right thing and let somebody know that because you know right now it's just all on the shoulders of these old Chicago employees which seems like you know that's awesome of them but like this dude could really be dangerous like he really could be

I mean, who knows? And a lot of stuff doesn't get reported. You know what I mean? So just because you're not seeing something on certain days, like, oh, this was reported, this happened to this person, like, whatever. Like, I'm not saying, like, murder is prevalent around Denver. It's not. But, like, certainly sexual assault is prevalent everywhere.

Unfortunately, and and doesn't always get reported. Right. Like it often doesn't, you know, so I'm just like, you know, I basically was just trying to let them know. And I remember they were like, well, I remember they were nice. They were just they were like, well, there's nothing we can really do about that. They're not technically doing anything illegal.

And so and I got that, too. I understood that. And they were like, if you ever, you know, if you have like follow up encounters with this person or you feel like this person is following you or something or stalking you, you know, that kind of situation, like definitely at that point, there's something we can do. But as is like, there's nothing we can really do. And that was fair. I mean, I understand. I understand that.

I mean, I don't blame you for wanting to just like let them know. It's scary as hell. Yeah, it was. I mean, more than anything, I guess like from that, I am always and have been well before that like hypervigilant of like what's going on around me. And again, that comes from negative experiences, but it also it helps me be safer emotionally.

And it's like, okay, I just went out to grab, I just went out to grab food with this person. And, you know, again, I wasn't super emotionally invested. And I know there's some people who would have been, you know, and I realized it was just that one day, but there's probably girls that this person talked to for weeks. You know what I mean? Like that's probably, it probably wasn't just me.

this guy talked to them for a day because he was on plenty of fish like i'm sure he i don't know but i assume like that probably was more rare that they would just go meet up with him because i think a lot of people like talk and get to know each other and stuff

The truth is, I don't know. I don't know who this person is and I don't know what his true intentions were. And I don't know if perhaps he never, all he wanted to do was hook up with these girls and then, and then meet a new one. I mean, I don't know that he, what he was doing, but what I know is that there's a lot of things wrong with that situation. There's a level of manipulation in terms of taking advantage of someone's

emotional state, you know, and, and that's never okay. Even if it is just for, you know, even if it is for you to sleep with them, like whatever it is, like, that's not okay to manipulate another human being that way. And I was really lucky in a lot of ways in that situation. Ultimately, I guess that's, that's one thing I would hope that people understand is that

Everybody on the other side of the screen can be anybody like it really can and and I think everyone knows that to some degree Usually it's just like someone's pictures 24 years old but old ago, you know what I mean 24 years ago It's like oh, you don't look the same but Usually it's just people don't exactly quite look like their photos But I mean I know that there are situations like this and sometimes people who pretend to be other people online are

it really is out of a place of like not feeling super confident and wanting to talk to other people and whatnot. And I, and I'm not by any means like condoning that either. I think that it's still dishonest to do that because you're still messing with another person's feelings, but no matter what other people's experiences with that or other people's reasons for doing that,

It's just it's just not OK that people can be put in potential like physical harm or emotional harm because someone else for any reason, really. But but I mean, especially when they're truly manipulating that situation, it's just don't just don't think that it can't happen to you. And I guess part of me feels like some people are like, well, nothing happened to you.

And that's true. And I'm so glad that that's the truth. But I don't know what the story is for the women before or after me. I guess I just feel like

Yeah, that's true. I don't, nothing, you know, ultimately happened, but to me that was, um, there's a lot of things about that that, um, make it seem like that could very well have been a very dangerous situation. And it's important to take stories like that seriously, because that's how a lot of people end up in those situations, whether it's someone pretending to be someone else, or, I mean, I had never, and I've still, I don't think I've ever met anybody else

who are not that I know of anyway, who has gone someplace to meet someone and an entirely different person wasn't even admitting that they were the one who got them there. Like, you know what I mean? Like they were, it wasn't like they didn't look the same or weren't the same. It's like, you think that person literally didn't show up and this other person is here just to like be nice and, you know, buy you food. So, and like save your night, like make you feel better after being stood up. Like,

that to me was a really big part of why I thought it was scary because

It wasn't just that the dude that I went to go, that the Leo Jordan wasn't, wasn't him. It was like that dude didn't exist. And also the person pretending to be him didn't, didn't even, I had no idea he was sitting next to me while he was talking to me. When I think about this story, I mean, I think that's really terrifying what happened to you. And even though I,

You got lucky and the staff there were caring enough to insert themselves and make sure that you were okay. That's still a really scary thing when you're by yourself. And to think, I'm sure the days following, it's like, did he get my address? You're kind of like looking over your shoulder. And those kinds of experiences are very, very terrifying.

especially when you live alone and you're a young female in a new city. Like that's very scary to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of ways that that could have gone a different direction. And also too, I should just say that I don't remember the server's name and, but I do remember, I remember the bartender's name was Johnny, but you know, whoever you two are, like wherever you are now, if you happen to ever come across this, like that was awesome. Thank you.

Those are people really caring about other people and doing what they can. And that to me is awesome. And I really appreciate that. So, yeah. So thank you for those people. And I hope there's more people out there like that. That's amazing.

Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this story. I think it's so important these days. And I know there can definitely be some great outcomes for people. But this story just really opened my eyes to the ways that our safety can, you know, those safety boundaries can be violated. So I really appreciate it. And I'd love to share with listeners, like if they want to follow you or listen to your podcast when it comes out, where can they do that?

It will be on iTunes. And the name of our podcast is Let's Get Back to Questionable, Inappropriate Advice and More. But all you need to remember is LGBT. So yeah, but that would be awesome. It's hopefully going to be entertaining and funny for you guys and would love to have people listening. So thank you so much also for... I mean, Tiffany has been so awesome in making this happen too. And just, you know, you consulting and everything has just been a really...

I mean, literally wouldn't know what I was doing at all. I'm over you to help me get started. So thank you so much. Oh, well, that's an, it's an honor and I can't wait to listen to the show. And you and your co-host on the show, Bobby are hilarious. I already heard a clip and it's awesome. So you guys are going to love it. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this story. I really appreciate it. Thanks for letting me share it and for everything else. So. You think you know me, you don't know me well enough.

Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at

patreon.com slash something was wrong. Something was wrong now has a free virtual survivor support form at somethingwaswrong.com You can remain as anonymous as you need. Thank you so much for listening. They call me up on the telephone at night but I know that it's not They think they know me they don't know me well

You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. Nobody knows.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.