S5 E8: Everything was Terrifying | Rachel
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If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. Thank you. I think mainstream Christianity, I think for the past 100 years, has been gaslit and created into what it is now. Growing up,

We were taught that if you were even 1% off from the truth, you were going to hell. So all Catholics were going to go to hell. All Orthodox people were going to go to hell. All Jewish people were going to go to hell. Even if you were...

even if you were a Christian, but didn't have one little belief, you were going to go to hell. And it was like, everything was, it was this constant fear that you were going to be deceived because if you're deceived, you don't know that you're being deceived. So you were constantly fighting to not be deceived. And you, your only source of hope was to listen to your parents or to listen, you know, to what they said God was saying. And it was so dangerous and it was so fraught and it was so easy to end up going to hell. You know, it,

Everything was terrifying. It was this idea that...

We're all living in our own little world. It's basically the matrix. But the reality is, is that Satan's constantly fighting Jesus and whatnot. And we had to, you know, if you got wrapped up in, you know, things like, I don't know, happiness, mental health, you were getting wrapped up in the physical world and you had to, you know, you were ignoring the fight and you were going to get distracted. And so, you know,

It was very much like nothing else mattered. And of course, when my dad got stressed and went to the movies, that didn't count. That's just what he wanted to do. So we were constantly rotted with this sense of impending doom. And you need to hurry up and fight and hurry up and get better and hurry up and grow up. And you have to do something. And they would always say this thing of you have to...

tell everyone you meet about Jesus because what happens if they walk away and get hit by a bus and they die and go to hell? That's your fault because you could have told them about Jesus and you didn't. And so I grew up literally with the weight of the world on my shoulders. A feeling like if I acted a certain way, if we went to my grandparents' house and I said one thing out of line, I wasn't being a good Christian witness and they were going to go to hell because of me. And so I

They trained you to self-police. Not only were they controlling your every move, they got you in such a mindset that you were trying to control your own behavior to such a degree because you were terrified of showing someone that you weren't a true Christian and making them think that it wasn't real. And so then they wouldn't believe and then they would go to hell. And that's another, you know, strike against you.

They were always so good at appearing normal. Like, normal enough. And there was this sense of, I think the church was like, you don't get involved in someone else's family. You don't try to tell parents how to discipline their kids or whatnot. And so I think if people did see something that they were like, eh, that's a little weird. They just had this sense of like, it's not my place to do that.

And especially when your dad became the pastor, right? Your dad was the head of the church. Yes. So was he looked at as like an extension of God? Because I know you described it as a cult-like atmosphere. Yeah. So it was very much the sense of...

we have a mission from God and you're going to, if you join, like you're coming with us. And if you at some point don't have our vision, you're out. And they were very much obsessed. And I think in some ways, I think they did try to do good. I mean, a lot of cults do try to do good, you know, even, you know,

You know, Jonestown, they, you know, there were some aspects of that, that, you know, before you got too deep into it, that they felt like they were doing good. So my parents were very much proud of the fact that they accepted the down and outs as they called them. You know, we don't turn our back on the down and outs. So they were constantly reaching out and befriending the drug addicts, the drug community, the alcoholics and, and,

I think in some part of their brains, they were trying to do good. And in some part of their brains, it was like a way for them to feel like they were doing good, to feel better about themselves. But that also meant I was growing up around the families of these kids. And when you have kids who are covered in head lice and suffering from malnutrition or their dad attacked them and their mom with a stun gun is now in jail,

It's really hard to look at your life and feel bad about it. And my parents would use that. My dad would always say, you know, like, you have a fantastic, like, I'm a great dad. Like, you have a fantastic life. And compared to those around us, we did. So you didn't question it. And you felt grateful. And you were glad that, at the very least, your dad wasn't trying to kill you guys.

But that put us around a lot of unsavory characters. Like I remember I walked downstairs one day into our kitchen and there were two guys that were hanging out with my dad a lot. One was called Skinny and one was called Shaky for obvious reasons. One was Shaky because he was constantly shaking. If he wasn't drunk, he would shake. And the other guy was Skinny because he was on so much heroin that he was like a rake. And

And Shaky was standing in our kitchen and he turned around and his eye was like gouged and bloody.

And apparently he had been in the bar and got into a fight and someone had stabbed him in the eye. And he came home to my dad for help. And so he was like, don't be scared, don't be scared. And of course me, I'm like, I'm not scared, I'm brave. But looking back, I'm like, holy crap, that's an incredibly traumatic thing to just walk down to and breakfast. So instead of seeking medical help, he went to your dad? Oh, I don't. I think my dad took him to go get medical help. Oh, okay, okay. But it was this thing of like...

We have no boundaries. We open up our arms to everyone. And oh, well, if our kids get hurt because of it.

Like, there were times where I remember me and my babysitters cowering under a table while a drunk guy, who consequently was one of those men that was having issues that my parents were trying to set up one of their lady friends with, me and that lady friend were huddled under a table while this drunk guy was trying to break in to see us. And I don't know, like, he was screaming and banging on doors. Like, I don't know what would have happened if he came in. Horrifying. Yeah.

So in your mind, when you're processing that, are you thinking like this person has a demon or in your head, did you already see that was bullshit? I always thought that was bullshit because...

I saw very quickly, like, you know, my ability to see things logically. I put the pieces together quite quickly that my mom was mad at someone. They had a demon. Or when I was, you know, when she was mad at me, I was suddenly had a demon of rebellion or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you learn to kind of keep your mouth shut about stuff. Usually it was when my character was being called into question or one of my siblings was being hurt that I wouldn't shut my mouth.

So yeah, no, I knew that was, you know, he was dangerous, but there was also that side to me that was like very adventurous and was like, oh boy, if he comes in, like, what am I going to, you know, fight him with? Like I was one of those stupid kids who was like, you know, wanting someone to step to me just so I could like,

try out my skills. It's also a coping mechanism, your fight or flight response. Yeah. Well, and I think as we got older, my mom became more and more annoyed by how violent me and my sisters were. Like when I talk about my fights, like I remember having a fight with my two-year-old sister, I think I was four, and I picked up a fire guard and hit her over the head with it. So a fire guard is if you have like an open fireplace, they usually create like these metal guards that are like a half circle around them so that a kid doesn't crawl up.

So I just picked that up above my head and hit her with it. Didn't even think twice. You were raised in a violent atmosphere where that was normalized. Exactly. Our favorite thing was to wrestle and to play fight. And I almost felt energized by that. And I think that was definitely a self-defense mechanism that I had. So anytime I got into like a time where I was scared, my brain would go, no, you can take him. You're big and strong. Even though I was like a seven-year-old girl and couldn't have really done that much against a big drunk guy.

But in my brain, I think that's what stopped me from being scared in that moment. It also, I think, trained me to be very aggressive and to see people as threats. Like that same guy came up to my parents one time. We were walking. We met him in the street. And I had my hair in plaits or braids, as you guys call them. And he grabbed one of my plaits and yanked on them in like a... He made like this weird comment as well. But I just turned around and like punched him in the stomach.

because he attacked me and my parents were furious and like made me apologize. And in my brain, I'm like, he struck first. Why am I in trouble? Like, I don't understand. This season, Instacart has your back to school. As in, they've got your back to school lunch favorites, like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back to school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow.

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It was this thing of, like, it doesn't matter what the adults do. You just have to sit and take it. And they had that kind of attitude with a lot of things with us where it was like, you're going to hang out with the kids of these people and whatnot. And we got head lice so many times. I'm not, I'm surprised we didn't, like, have our heads shaved. Like, I remember just, like, months of us. My mom would make us sit in these chairs and she would put the TV on so we wouldn't move and just cover our heads in, like, mayo and

And that was like the home remedy. You cover your hair in mayo and then you would like comb them out. And that became such a staple of my childhood for years. Like I remember that being a thing because we were friends with these kids and like the kids were, the kids were nice. They were, they were nice and I felt really awful for them and they were in a bad situation. So like, you know, in my brain, I'm like, I want to hang out with them. I want to make them feel better. But my parents really were just putting us in positions where anything could have happened to us.

And that was kind of like their martyr-esque way of looking at it. Like, we are going to open our arms to everyone. And if anything happens to us, it's God's will. Like, I remember my dad at one point being like, I don't care. Like, I'm not going to ever kill anyone. That was his thing of like...

We were watching something about World War II and they were talking about people that were sent to jail because they didn't want to fight. And my dad's like, I would have been one of those people. And in my brain, I'm like, what? Why? You're like perfectly fine hitting us. Like, I don't understand. And he was like, no, I don't believe it's right. And so then I think either me or my sister were like, well, what if like someone came into the house and was hurting us or like raping us? And he was like, well, you know, I would be upset, but that's up to God. And if God's going to allow that to happen, then,

And it was just this idea of like, we were just at the will of God. And, you know, they weren't going to do much to protect us. They were going to, you know, do what they thought was right, regardless of if it would put us in danger or not. How scary and terrifying.

And also, it's interesting that your dad seemed to operate as a gaslighter from the beginning, saying, oh, I hate doing this, but I'm going to spank you. Yes, very much so. It was always someone else's fault. I remember even as like a...

Like 23 year old calling him out because he shoved my sister Hannah because she got in the way of him punching one of our other siblings and he shoved her out of the way. And when I confronted him about it, he said, well, she was the child and she was being disrespectful.

And I remember yelling at him being like, it is not the child's responsibility to make sure that you don't have an outburst. Like it's your responsibility to control how you respond to that. And he was like, it was just this idea of like, I'm the parent. And if you were disrespectful to me,

whatever happens to you is your fault and it was very much this i think growing up i the more i believe that they saw us as extensions of themselves as opposed to like loving us in their own right so they loved us the way that they loved themselves but the minute that we did something that hurt them or made you know made them uncomfortable it was like all of a sudden we were the enemy and

They had this like selective belief slash memory because like whenever they were talking to anyone else, it was like, oh, they're gifts from God. You know, we're just stewards of them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then as soon as those backs were turned, it was like, no, like we control you like we you know, you belong to us.

Especially because they're telling so many people how to like live their lives and what's right and what's wrong and placing themselves in that position of authority. What I've heard from other pastors' kids is that you feel an even higher amount of pressure because of that. Yes.

Like you said, it's an extension of them. And so I imagine you were describing that woman that lived in the house and planted the church with them in the beginning and how you felt like she was hard on you or judging you, but perhaps she was actually just trying to argue with your mom and harm or judge her. Yeah. Because you're looked at as a piece of her. You're caught in the crossfire, essentially. Yeah, I think...

My parents created the narrative that she was against us and out to get us. Coming to know her now, she's an incredibly kind and loving woman. And I think my parents believed something about her. And so then I saw all of her actions through that lens.

Well, we were also running to the issue of, you know, my parents had two kids and this lady and her family had two kids and people began to like those kids more than us. Or, you know, that was how my parents felt. My parents would get mad at us because people thought that they were the pastor's kids. And my parents were furious about that. One, because they felt like,

that family were trying to take their spot and take their authority. And then two, that we were seen as like troublemakers and were, you know, mistaken for other people and other people's kids were thought to be the pastor's kids because they were so good. And so there was this constant tension there of like, you have to be better or whatever.

For me, I definitely reacted to that out of my thing of, well, if you want me to be a certain way, I'm going to go so far the other way.

So like, I remember I was like, I waged an all out war and anything that the people wanted from me, I would give them the opposite of like, I remember I spent hours before church service digging up worms out of the ground. And then I would walk around to people to go shake their hands and just stick worms in their hands and run off. Got in so much trouble for that, but I loved it. Yeah.

And I think because my mother was so antagonistic towards me in that way, I began to view any type of conflict as a battle for my soul. And if I gave any inch or said something or agreed to something that I didn't believe in, I felt like I was losing myself. So in a way that kind of helped me.

Because in another way, it made that any fight I had in my marriage, my pro-husband didn't understand why I was acting as if he was trying to break me down when he was just asking about how I filled the dishwasher. So that was definitely...

Something I've had to unpack because I've gotten older, but it's something that served me very well as a child. Well, yeah, I can so relate when you have to constantly meeting new people is actually assessing them and their threat to you. Yes. Oh, definitely. Because the people that you're around. Yes.

We're always, you're always assessing the threat. And if this person was going to harm you, especially considering that your parents would let people that sounds like they barely even knew live at the house and be around you. Now, were those people, you said they were allowed to punish you. So are you saying that people that lived with you were physically abusive to you and your sister as well? Yes. Yes.

And it ranged if the person was comfortable or not. A lot of times people weren't comfortable and they would just say, I'm just going to tell your parents. But there were other times where, yeah, we definitely got disciplined by people. And it's interesting, the books that I mentioned earlier, the Debbie and Michael Pearl, which I recommend you look into because there's been a lot of cases of abuse recently and abuse allegations coming from people that followed that type of teaching. Yeah.

They basically said that not only were you to like, you know, punish your kids like that, but you were to have a ton of kids and raise the older ones to do the same. And so for a while, me and my older sister were basically given authority to punish my younger siblings. And so we grew up doing the same thing to them. And it's like it's bred into you.

You were homeschooled at that time and you mentioned that you weren't really allowed to go outside. So am I correct in assuming that all of your socialization was with people who lived in the house or people who went to the church? Yes. Now, we had kids who would come up and play in our yard because we lived on three and a half acres of land and some of it was a forest. And so the kids would come play in the forest.

And if that happened, my parents would actually like try to get them to come inside and then basically sit them down and scare the living bejesus out of them until they like said a sinner's prayer or until one of their parents came looking for them. Like there were multiple times where like kids just like,

hung out with us so long that their parents would like come and be like where the hell are they like and be looking for them i'm surprised we didn't get the police called on us honestly kids would literally wander in to play with us and my mom would sit them down and read them horrific stories about hell until they like were so scared that they would say the prayer

And in my brain, part of me is like, oh my God, mom, part of me is like, oh, yay, they're saved. I don't have to worry about this person. I like going to hell. Yeah. But other than that, it was very much like everyone. And if someone did like us or want to become friends, there was always a reason why they weren't good friends with us. And we'd always cry and be like, mom, but we want friends. You said you were praying for us to have friends. I am praying for you, but these aren't the friends God wants for you. We have to wait for the friends that God wants for you. And they never came along, surprisingly. Yeah.

Did you receive an actual education when you were homeschooled or were you only taught the Bible? My parents used this curriculum called ACE, Accelerated Christian Education, School of Tomorrow. There was nothing educational or accelerated about it. I...

left and went to college with barely any education. They barely taught you science and it was very much through like making you question evolution or like basically very much training you to be a good Christian person and

Yeah.

And so a lot of times in the curriculum, they would have pictures of like, so-and-so was disobedient. And so this person disciplined them and it would be a kid bending over getting hit with like a big wooden paddle.

So talk about normalized in your life. Oh, 100%. Like I grew up believing that spanking was good to the point where before I went to college, I was 17. And this guy I worked with, he had a question. He was just, he felt like, you know, I'm spanking my kids and I just feel like it's not working. I feel like all I'm doing is spanking them. Like, you know, you were spanked a lot as a kid. Like, are you okay? Like, I'm worried I'm hurting them. And I said, no,

oh yeah i'm totally fine i was spanked multiple times a day and i'm totally fine like that's how normalized it was and how much i didn't realize things were wrong even with all the issues i had with my parents all the stuff that i knew was up about our lives that was still so normalized to me as a 17 year old and i hope to god he didn't listen to me i mean if he did take the word of a 17 year old i mean that's on him

My parents, I think, were so gung-ho and they equated being able to spank their kids to having religious freedom. So if the government was trying to stop you from spanking their kids, they were coming after your right to be able to parent as a Christian. And so a lot of people, I think, also got wrapped up in that and were like, well, yeah, yeah, you know, like, of course we support you. Like, you know, we also don't want our rights taken away and

And because of that, I think even now, like in America, I think it's the same way where that ability to, you know, train your kids in a Christian way is seen as like if you try to like control or try to like put any type of restrictions on corporal punishment, they see it as, oh, they're coming for our religious rights or religious freedom.

And I think that's why my parents got away with it for so long and why no one questioned them is because that was such a big part of our church and the way people believed. That was drilled into us from such a young age that at some point there were so many other things to be mad about that that didn't even seem like it was one of them. You know, that seemed like the one thing they were doing right.

Well, and it became such a, like, there were definitely things that, like, weirded me out. Like, I remember when we were young, like, my dad thought it was funny to compare me and my sister's butts to see, after we'd been spanked, to see the handprints. And he thought, like, he liked to see that. I remember being so embarrassed one morning at breakfast because he was explaining the differences in how we cried when we were spanked. And so he was mimicking me crying and then my sister crying and making fun of us for how we cried when we were spanked.

And there was always this like idea of like, oh, well, it's just crocodile tears or like, oh, you know, you're just crying for attention or blah, blah, blah. To the point now where like if I'm talking to someone and I'm fighting passionately and I start to cry, the amount of shame and frustration I feel at myself for crying like is unheard of.

And that was the way my father was with everything. Like even as a teenager, when I would start to cry while I was talking to him, it was just like, you're weak and you can't control yourself. Everything that you did or everything you did to act out was always seen as something deliberate as opposed to like, this is a reaction you're having because you're scared or something. It was like, oh, well, you're just, you're...

upset and you're not getting your waist you're acting out as opposed to like you know I remember my dad was pissed at me because I was depressed and I wasn't happy you know like there'd be multiple times as a child where like I think I was having a definite reaction to something and he would snap and be and be like get that look off your face like smile be happy

And it was just a thing of like no negative emotions were ever allowed or ever accepted. And if you were having any type of emotional reaction that wasn't positive, it was you trying to manipulate the situation to get something as opposed to you just having a legitimate experience and reaction to something. And that fucked me up hardcore.

Hard core. Understandably. And do you think it also made you for a time or at times look at other people with those same motivations because you had been brainwashed to believe that people are only motivated those ways? Oh, definitely. Definitely. I growing up there, my little sister, Rebecca, she came at a hard time in our lives. And unfortunately, all I think of my parents, my

and frustrations with where they were at life were put onto her. I think everything she was reminded my dad of my mom, and he hated that. And my mom saw her as someone that she needed to protect. And so Rebecca, unfortunately, became their thing that they fought over. And I was very much like my father in the way I looked and the way I acted. And so I

I think in my mom's brain, she, any aggression she had against my father was put onto me and any interaction I had with Rebecca, she saw through the lens of I, as my dad attacking her. Rebecca is the, well, Rebecca is technically the fourth. So part of what happened just before my parents, uh,

plan at the church and I think probably a lot of their issues going forward with their kids my mother got pregnant and they weren't planning it and they had a son there were complications and he died quite soon after he was born my dad says that you know he was born my dad went to go get flowers for my mom and Stephen was dead when she came back I'm so sorry thank you

And it was really hard for me because I think we were heartbroken, but my parents instantly went on this line of, look how amazing God is and look how not sad we are because we believe in God. Like my mom apparently would talk about how she prayed for Stephen to be resurrected and

like prayed over his body but then you know like gave up and um knows that we'll see him in heaven and god gave her a vision after like five years that they'd have another son or like whatever and i remember even as a small child feeling like something bad had happened and we weren't acknowledging it and it was this very matter of fact thing of like yep steven's in heaven blah blah blah and

Growing up, it felt like we talked about him a lot, but it was very much in this like happy way of like, oh, we'll see him again and blah, blah, blah. And there was never any like grief period with my parents. It was like this thing where they'd be like,

We should be so sad, but God's comforting us with his amazing, you know, love and compassion and look how amazing it is. And it became this like miracle thing. And they would talk about, yeah, people look at us and they say we're crazy and they think we should be sad, but we're just not. And there'd be times where like, I would be alone as a small child crying for my brother. And I think in a way it felt like I had to grieve for him because no one else would.

And it felt like there was no acknowledgement of the loss there. And they never dealt with it. And so I think when Rebecca was born, they were very much triggered. So it goes you, Hannah, Stephen, Rebecca, Sarah, Daniel. And both of Sarah and Rebecca, my dad had said they were boys and was excited for them to be boys. And then they weren't. Oh. Yeah. Like he was prophesying? Mm-hmm.

Yep. Because, yeah, it was rough. I think my mother saw it as he didn't want anything to do with Rebecca and Sarah because they weren't boys. I think in reality, neither of them dealt with their trauma. And I think my dad was so traumatized by what happened with Steven that he wasn't able to emotionally connect with the girls. Because they would tell us that my dad didn't want any more kids. He was happy with me and Hannah.

And then after the loss of Steven, it felt like it was just this constant thing of like trying to get back what they lost. And so they didn't stop until they got Daniel. The older they got, the more they talked about how people were freaked out that they had so many kids, you know, because they had like five. And I don't think in America that's such a shock, but in Britain, it definitely was like a lot of kids. That's a lot of kids to me, man. Yeah, it was.

I think they were definitely kind of in the camp of if God gives us a child,

He wants us to have it. And they were also in this weird camp of like, we need to grow the kingdom by having more kids. And it wasn't like a huge thing growing up, but the older we got, like the more my dad would rant, he would rant on and on about how Muslim families were coming over and they had a ton of kids. And because they had a ton of kids, they were gaining, gaining ground. And us Christians didn't want to have kids anymore. And just so bizarre. Yeah.

So, funnily enough, the church that we were kind of affiliated with started getting weirder and weirder, more into that cult-like setting. Like, the guy who ran it is called Colin Urquhart, and I don't know if he still runs it, but I think my parents were there, like, in the young days, and it got to the point where he had security, and you weren't allowed to talk to him, and...

You had to be on a certain spiritual level in order to be able to have a conversation with him, in order to be able to make an appointment to speak with him.

And I don't know how they calculated those levels, but they did. And so that was like, you know, as weird as my parents were, I think they were definitely being fed by like an even weirder dynamic. Which makes them probably feel less extreme because. Yes. And I think it makes sense that, you know, my dad being as narcissistic and needing to control things, being told that you weren't spiritual enough to, you know, he didn't like that feeling of having to prove himself.

And so he began to have real issues with the church. And my mom did not. My mom was so like in love with that church. And, you know, I think that I think truly that's where some of her fonder memories with our family were when we were young and, you know, they were at Bible college. And I think that became such a safe space for her. She never wanted to leave it. She's very much that way where like she is unable to she views her life through the happy times and is unable to recognize the reality of where we are.

So around this time, one of my dad's friends who went to Bible college with him came to speak at our little house church. And she told him he was explaining his frustration and feeling like people weren't concerned with getting people saved. And, you know, that was always his big thing. Like people had to get saved. People had to get saved, which, you know, I think in some ways they truly did believe Christ.

that stuff that they were telling us about, you know, you have to get people saved because they're going to hell. I think he did believe that. And so I think he was genuinely frustrated and freaked out and feeling like this was important and no one else cared. And she told him about a church that she had been a part of or had been affiliated with in Hawaii of all places. And I didn't even know Hawaii was a place. Like I remember my dad saying he was going to Hawaii. I'm like, what?

And she said, I think you'll really like this pastor. You need to go to this conference. And my dad basically said, like, I don't have the money to go. And even if I did, like, there's better things to spend it on than that. And so he tells a story all the time, like she's preaching at their church at their conference. And then she basically stands up and says, this man needs to go to this conference pointing at my dad and you guys need to pay for it.

And in Britain, that's just not a thing you do. Like my dad was mortified and everyone else was mortified. But he said by the end of the conference, his ticket was paid for and the price of the conference was paid for. So off he went and he had a really great experience. And I think he felt very accepted and loved. And I think for whatever my dad is searching for in life, I think that's still a very big part of what he is looking for. And I think he just probably...

probably for one of the first times in his life, felt like he found a place where he was accepted. Not necessarily for what he believed or whatnot, but just like he just...

felt so happy in that place. And it was like, he came back and after he came back, all he wanted to do was go back there. And he felt like God was telling him that we had to go train there. And my mother absolutely did not. And that's basically what like ended the church. Like our church split up, I think around the time I was nine and it was very traumatic. And there was a lot of screaming matches and there was a lot of like

I remember watching my parents fight, my parents having a fight, and then one of the ladies in the church who had been a part of it screaming, like they were having a three-way screaming match at each other. And it was just very painful. It was such a broken time. And they decided that they were ending the church and that we were leaving the home that I grew up in, that hunting lodge.

And that was when we moved to the other church base they had, which was in the middle of the village. And basically the next four years were us moving from place to place while my dad whittled away at my mother to let us go to Hawaii. So we ended up moving to a tiny fishing village north of Inverness, actually, like tiny place.

It was a lot of fun, but it was also, I think the more my father fought with my mom, the more abusive things got on both ends. And like growing up, I'd seen my dad be abusive every now and then, but it kind of became more of the norm living there just before we went to Hawaii.

The biggest thing he ever did to my mom that I'm aware of was we were living in Artselma, which was the hunting lodge, and they got into a fight about something and he threw a mug at her and it hit her in the eye. And she had to wear an eye patch for a month and she almost went blind. And I remember right after it happened, like we heard it and then my dad ran out and locked us in our rooms and told us not to talk to anyone.

But there was a lady who was living, who was staying with us. She wasn't living with us full time. I think she was just there for a couple of weeks and she heard what happened and confronted my father about it. And so...

My dad got up in front of the entire church and basically admitted what he did and offered to step down. It became this big thing where I watched it happen and I watched everyone turn around and say, "Oh my gosh, we haven't supported you enough. You've been all alone. You must be so stressed. How brave of you to admit what you did. That really shows your character."

And in that moment, I knew like no one was ever going to help us. Like it didn't matter. I was always impressed with my dad. My dad would always apologize. He would always come out and say exactly what he did and apologize for it. And it was only as I got older that I realized nothing ever changed. And we'd always be so impressed with the fact that he apologized that we want to move on. And then he would act exactly the same way again.

And I spoke with like a couple of people who were there when that happened. And they said, yeah, we felt guilty about it. And we felt like, you know, we had put him under stress and we weren't supporting him enough. And was nobody concerned about your mom? Was it normalized for men to hit their wives? Not, no, it wasn't. But my mother was such a fucking spitfire. And I think half of those people had been in fights with my mom where they probably assumed she just pushed him to it.

My mom was the type of woman who he would knock her down, she'd get back up and push him, you know? Like, that was why it was so hard, I think, to see what was happening was because she...

she would stand her ground on something and attack my father to the point where he would snap and lunge at her and then she would get up and lunge back at him. You know, like she was very like ready to fight until I get my way to the point where like, even if, and then of course my dad would be like, oh my gosh, like I hit you. Let's, you know, do damage control and figure it out. And so she would most often get her way. And that was the frustration I think of we had growing up because she would never leave us.

You know, she didn't, she would never do anything because she was like, no, you are going to become this person. You are going to become this man. We are going to make it work. Like they would always, they would always brag about how divorce was never an option for us. We're always going to slog it out together. And all of us kids would be like, please God, divorce, let us out. You know?

And I think part of the hard part was, is that, you know, it did seem like, I believe my dad, and he said he was so sorry of what he did and he knew it was wrong. And it took me a long while to realize that he could be so sorry, but yet because he wasn't doing what he needed to do to change his behavior, he could hate what he was doing, but still do it.

It came to the point where I realized that I wasn't safe being around him. It was no longer a matter of did he care or did he love us or did he feel sorry? It was regardless of whether he does or not, he's not a safe person to be around. And I think that's where the table started turning in our brains of like, we need to get out. Next time.

Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese.

Music by Glad Rags. Thank you so much to each and every survivor for sharing their story. If you'd like to support the growth of the podcast, you can leave us a five-star review on iTunes, support the podcast on patreon.com, share the podcast with your family and friends, or support our sponsors. Websites and resources mentioned on this episode can be found linked in the episode notes.

Follow me on Instagram at lookyboo. L-O-O-K-I-E-B-O-O. Thank you so much. You think you know me, you don't know me well.

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