S5 E6: It Was All Kind of Hidden | Kelly
38:48 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Something Was Wrong early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could be saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Multitask right now. Quote today at Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

With Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, expert advice, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. And Audible makes it easy to be inspired and entertained as a part of your everyday routine without needing to set aside extra time. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their ever-growing catalog. Be

Be inspired to explore your inner creativity with Viola Davis' memoir, Finding Me. Find what piques your imagination with Audible. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500. That's audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500.

Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences. Many episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional and physical abuse, suicide, and murder. Please take caution when listening. I am not a therapist or a doctor.

Opinions expressed by guests of the show do not necessarily represent the views of this podcast. If you or someone you know is being abused, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.

If you or someone you love is experiencing a suicidal crisis or thoughts of suicide, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. Thank you.

Hi friends. Before we get into the last chapter of Kelly's incredible story, I wanted to share a few updates. As you've probably noticed, the cadence of which episodes have been releasing has varied quite a bit this year. Like many parents right now, I'm balancing working from home full-time while caring for children full-time, which is like, really hard.

We also recently had some personal stuff going on as well and had to move unexpectedly, and while we are on the mend and getting settled, like many of you, this year I have felt extremely anxious, depressed, isolated, and uncertain. That said, I appreciate your patience with release cadence as we continue to navigate 2020 together and all of its fuckery.

When I'm not working on recording, writing, or editing episodes, I'm working on the small business side of funding the podcast as well as responding to messages and aiding listeners in finding resources that can help those who are navigating leaving abusive relationships or the abuse that often follows divorcing abusers, narcissists, and gaslighters. I'm honored and so thankful for how many wonderful humans I have met through this podcast.

I'm wanting to find more ways for us to connect with one another and support this community, so I've added a private forum to the Something Was Wrong website where listeners can connect with and support other abuse survivors. If you're interested in joining this free virtual support group, head to somethingwaswrong.com slash forum. Thank you so much.

Hearing Julia and Kelly share their stories these past few months has been so eye-opening to me. When I first started looking into this, quote, church and its pattern of abuse, I really didn't know all that would be uncovered.

I knew something always felt personally off for me when visiting the church, its previous venue, and its services. But I truly had no idea the depths of abuse and the pain the members of this church were navigating. I've heard from many others who have attended this church, and like Kelly and Julia, they too have told me of their spiritual and emotional abuse, their continued therapy to combat the trauma which occurred while attending this church.

I have learned so much about their experiences and my own self through their words, and I hope the same is true for you. Thank you again to Julia and Kelly for their bravery and vulnerability. As always, please take care when listening.

I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is Something Was Wrong. After we separated, I did sleep with my husband one more time after that.

And I would not classify... Oh, no. Yeah, I would call it... No, I don't know what to call it because I consented to it. But it was a demeaning act. This one might actually get me emotional. We visited that night after maybe a month of being separated. And we sat down to talk for a few hours. And then kind of mutually decided...

That we would spend one last night together and then that would be the end. So we go into the bedroom and start to have sex, but he doesn't want to look at me. So he has me flipped onto my stomach. He started hitting me. Not enough to leave bruises. Open palm smacking my skin and calling me a bitch as he did it. Felt bad.

Like, that is the treatment I deserved. So I'm laying with my face in the blankets, sobbing. He can hear me crying, and he is that. And then he finishes and goes to take a shower. Lay on the bed crying some more. That was the last night we were together. The church was paying for my counseling sessions as well. So not only was the counselor...

ignoring real signs of abuse. Not only was he encouraging me to further submit to financial abuse, not only was he inserting religion and my lack of a document that seals me to this man, he was letting that be the justification for why I was being abused.

he was also beholden to the church financially for my sessions. This conflict of interest is

I cannot abide that. He was, everything that I experienced in those counseling sessions was immoral. He had a responsibility to protect somebody who was being abused and who was hurt. And he chose, consciously chose not to protect me.

After my counselor would talk to my father-in-law, violating so many confidentiality laws, then Lance would go to my mom and talk to her about what was going on in my counseling sessions. And what is Lance's understanding of what's happening? That I do not know because the man has not talked to me.

Oh, except for the one time I reached out to him and said, hey, I want to meet with you, and then he accused me of cheating. And I'm like, what do you... No, I didn't do that. I just... 100% he was victimized in childhood. 100%. But we can look to so many examples of people who were victimized in childhood and became better in spite of that. And this person has chosen...

not to seek help for their trauma, but instead he's chosen to traumatize others. Did you return to the church at any time after that? And what was that experience like, the sort of separation between you and this church? What was shared with other people attending the church about you leaving and you guys separating? After I left, I stayed away for a few months.

I felt like I didn't have the emotional capacity to return and look my ex in the face. So I took maybe three or four months away where I didn't attend. I tried to go somewhere else in the meantime and didn't find it. It felt good. So I just didn't go anywhere. And in that time of healing, I realized,

gathered enough resolve to go to the church on a Sunday morning and visit with my friends that I had missed. The friends that I had specifically cut contact with to protect my own heart for that time thought that I was finally ready to go and face the music, so to speak. So one morning I got in my car and drove there. And when I arrived in the parking lot,

was there and he happened to see me drive up. So as I was parking, he ran inside and alerted his dad or whatever. I'm not sure. So I composed myself and walked to the front of the building and Lance and his assistant pastor, associate pastor, cornered me before I had made it to the door. The both of them planted big smiles on their faces and attempted to appear happy to see me.

Lance's smile was insincere. I could tell that he was kind of freaking out about me being there. It threw a wrench in the image that he had constructed, I guess. So he grabs me by my arm and says, we are so happy to see you. But if you're here to cause a scene, you can just leave. That felt...

really horrible to hear after months of no contact with this man who I've known since I was five years old, who was my pastor since then, who was my father-in-law, who was my boss, and that I just walked out on the job without a word. That was the first thing he had said to me in months. And I started crying under the tension. And I took umbrage with his word choice and thinking that my character was

such that I would go in and, what did he think I was going to do? Yell at everybody over what had happened? I have no idea what was going through his mind. But, and he doesn't have the full story either. I was never open with him about the sexual and emotional abuse. And I have always wondered whether he would support me or not.

Because I think that he is capable of seeing other people's pain, but he does run from those confrontations, if that makes sense. So after Lance and the associate pastor cornered me and expressed that I was welcome as long as I wasn't going to cause a scene, I started to cry, as one does. And the assistant pastor pulled me aside and said,

translated Lance's words into something more palatable for me. He apologized for Lance by saying, we do want you here. We just want to make sure it's for the right reasons. So I told him what I was here for. I wanted to say hi to my friends. I wanted to come back to the church that I had known since I was five years old that had been my entire world for that many years. And so he sent me on my way.

And I got to spend the morning very tense, but pretending to have a good time connecting with people when I was just so nervous the whole time. After the service was over, I asked my sister-in-law to bring me to their mom because she had just had a baby that I hadn't met yet. And I would like to connect with her. And so she brought me to Lance's office and

where mom was giving the baby a bottle and we exchanged hellos and how are yous. And then before getting into anything deeper, she looks at me and says, you know, I just want to apologize for how Lance talked to you. He told me what happened and I want you to know that we love you. And he sounded more harsh than he meant to be.

So in the moment, I was like, oh, thank you. It's okay. I love you too. Whatever. Moving on. But after I left, I had the realization that instead of Lance taking accountability for the words that he said and how they made me feel, two separate people

Two people in his life apologized for him. Two separate people that are close to him in his life, that are his accountability, chose to let him get off scot-free. Is it scot-free? Scotch-free? How do you say that phrase? I don't know. I don't know. Two people in his life chose to let him walk away without consequences for his words. And that is...

One of the most concerning trends that I see in his life is the people that are close to him who have the opportunity to tell him when he messes up and to make him make reparations. They choose instead to allow him to escape those consequences and apologize for him. Um,

His associate pastor is pretty well known around the church for being his translator and for talking people off of the ledge after Lance has hurt them. They would not call it hurt. They would call it offense, which is something else entirely. But, um...

It really reminds me of a toddler who's never told no, that never has to experience the consequences of, you know, hitting their mom or whatever it is. They think that they're entitled to whatever actions they do. They think they're entitled to living a life without consequences. They think they're entitled to, um,

moving forward in life without ever looking back at the damage they've caused. And that is Lance to a T, especially in that moment where he had to be, he absolutely knew how what he said made me feel because I was crying in front of him. And he knew that what he had done was wrong because he went and talked to his wife about it. And still he was not able to come to me and express that he knew what he had done was wrong.

When you left, what was told to the congregation about your relationship? I have no idea if anything was said. I feel like it is such a disservice specifically to the teens that I worked with for them not to hear what happened. A lot of my ex's messaging to the kids...

during services was that we choose to love each other despite our differences and all of that stuff. And so to completely ignore the fact that a person who is influential in their lives, tooting my own horn a little bit, but to ignore the fact that I was no longer there and they couldn't ask questions about it was horrible.

I mean, some of those kids I really got on well with and helped them through some really tough times in their life. And when I left and they couldn't ask questions, that must have been a really horrible feeling for them to know that something happened, something was wrong, and nobody was commenting on how a person was being completely erased from the equation.

Yeah. And I just wonder, what do you think Lance knew about your separation? He obviously knew some of it based on his behavior upon your return. What do you think that he knew? He knew only what my ex had told him, which is likely that I was the abuser. I had a few specific events held over my head for the latter portion of my marriage, but

in which I behaved in a way as a result of being cornered and abused. And my ex used my one-time actions as a reason to justify his stance that I was the aggressor in our marriage. What happened was we came out of a movie and he asked me, how was it? And I said, it was great, but would have been better if you didn't spoil the ending for me.

Have you seen the movie Get Out? I haven't. So he spoiled the movie and that movie relies on the thing that he spoiled. So it was made that much less sweet for me because he told me how it ended.

So unfair. So I expressed that I would have appreciated it if he did not give me a spoiler. And in the middle of the theater, he got very tense with me and he accused me of being ungrateful. He said, I brought you to this movie. I was so nice to you. We held hands. We kissed during the movie. It was all around a great night. Why are you being like this? So I backtracked very quickly and I said, no, I was not telling you that you

Or a bad person. Or that you hurt me in this great way. Just that the movie would have been better if I was surprised. And so we fought about my one little comment in the car on the way home.

And before we'd even made it out of the parking lot, he was screaming at me that I was ungrateful. And I'm sitting there in the passenger seat with tears streaming down my face, telling him, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, over and over. And he's not relenting. He is not giving me any leeway at all for something that I actually don't feel I needed to apologize for. I feel like he needed to apologize to me in the beginning there and at the end, of course. So...

had all of this pent up energy I was feeling incredibly invalidated hurt by not being heard and so I balled up my fists and I punched him in the shoulder like three or four times in quick succession and he stopped the car and made me get out and he left me there

Okay, that's a little more fantastic than the reality. He had driven me to my car and dropped me off by my car and then sped off after I had gotten out. But he didn't realize that my backpack was in his trunk and so he left me without my phone and my keys. So I was stranded. And then later he did not apologize for his actions that led me to feeling cornered and put into a fight or flight response in which I hit him.

But he did make me apologize for doing the hitting. And then he made me apologize for that for the rest of our marriage. Did he ever apologize to you for raping you repeatedly? No. In fact, he was angry at the end for my description, making it seem like that's what he had done because he is a good person and he does not rape people from his perspective.

Furthermore, after I quit the job, quit working for the church, just stopped showing up and didn't tell Lance that I was going to stop showing up, the paycheck didn't stop. I wasn't working, but he was still earning my money. My mother was the accountant at this time, so she handled these paychecks and knew that her daughter was not working to earn the money that this man was still collecting.

So she brought it up to Lance and my ex and they accused her. What did they, I can't remember what the specific accusation was that she was making a mountain out of a molehill, molehill, that she was being overdramatic, you know, all of the gaslighting things. The accountant whose sole job is to

keeping the church financially in check and making sure that they're following legal procedures to keep their nonprofit status. This person was making a mountain out of a molehill, just so I'm understanding correctly. Yes. I obviously wasn't there, so this is a secondhand account, but my mom describes that the time that she worked there during this time after she exposed the embezzlement, that she was bullied.

That she was ostracized and she was made to feel like she was making a big deal out of nothing. When in reality, him getting paid for my work that I wasn't even doing, it was not right. It was never right that that money was going to him instead of you. No, it wasn't. Your poor mother, what a position to be put into. I was so proud of her when she quit. So proud of her.

This season, Instacart has your back to school. As in, they've got your back to school lunch favorites, like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back to school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow.

Let's face it, we were all that kid. So first call your parents to say I'm sorry, and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long. Get a $0 delivery fee for your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 per order. Additional terms apply. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install?

done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Hire high-quality certified pros at Angie.com. I do remember the protests around Prop 8 and

I participated in them as well. I think that was when I was in either 8th or 9th grade. My participation was... I mean, obviously I had a choice, but it was not an informed choice. I remember having the Yes on 8 sign in my yard. I remember many more things about going on pro-life marches and participating in...

a day of silence for the unborn. I was not, okay, being a child, you can't be held responsible fully for the choices that you make that you've been taught from birth. But I do feel proud of myself for when I was in high school, I was confronted about my pro-life stance by somebody at my school. And I had the

of being defensive, but I chose to listen to them instead. And that was the first experience that I remember in which I questioned church leadership. And looking back on it now, I'm so proud of my young self for having the ability to see perspectives that differed from mine, because that is the catalyst for where I am today in being accepting of my friends and being

uh, much more liberal than my parents would like, but... Aren't we all? Yeah, I lost every deep relationship with- that I had known for my entire life when I left. And some of it was on purpose, my choice to say, you are not good for me, and I walked away. And others were just, I don't really know, their choice, nobody's choice, and

When I left the church, they, the leadership had been very specific about, we do not talk about Kelly and this person's relationship. It's not any of our business. And by saying that,

quenched any dissent, any questions about my reasons for leaving. Nobody was telling my side of the story. It was all kind of hidden. In fact, it was five months of me having been gone before my chiropractor, who attended the church, even knew I was separated. And I saw him every week.

Leading up to this, where I finally got the courage to tell him, you know, I haven't been to church in five months. I'm divorced. He had no idea because that's little anybody was allowed. What is the journey back been like for you so far? Back to yourself and connecting with yourself outside of this abusive relationship? Absolutely wonderful. I had forgotten how to be happy.

I had forgotten that I was worthy of love. I had forgotten that I was an individual. And since separating, I've gained all of that back tenfold. I don't think that I've ever felt more connected with my family. I don't think that I've ever had such strong friendships with coworkers and classmates and even childhood friends that I've reconnected with.

In my marriage, I wasn't allowed to be friends with the people I knew in high school because one of my friends is non-binary and another one is a trans man. And I wasn't allowed to be friends with them because they were too...

lowly for somebody of my stature, according to my spouse, who is absolutely obsessed with his reputation. And by associating with, I don't know what to call them, associating with regular people, how I would see them now, was not setting a godly example for the people in our lives. And it was lowering myself.

And since separating, I've reconnected with those friends and oh my God, how much have I missed them? Some of my closest friends again. And I can't believe that I was ever convinced to straight up abandon them.

I think that's so beautiful that you've been able to reconnect and make amends and be able to benefit from those relationships again. How else has leaving the church and your abuser changed your life for the better? I don't accept abuse from people these days. I feel like I'm much better equipped to...

handle all of the emotions that come at me in the day because I'm not attacked for them. My emotions are just emotions and I have the ability to state them, work through them, and any conflict that arises, I can handle it like a mature adult. Whereas before...

There's always this idea in church that emotions are lesser than what your brain tells you. But at the same time, all of the appeals to God's presence are based off of emotion. I feel God, therefore I know that he is here. And in leaving that abusive culture behind, I can just accept my emotions for what they are, things that guide me.

guide my choices and give me clues as to what's going on in the world around me and I can examine them and decide what to do with them, if that makes sense. My perspective is that if I am to be fully healed, I have to

Look for the good in bad people, if that makes sense. Yeah. And that's my personal journey that I have decided is something that I need to do. And I recognize that many survivors of abuse are not at that place and won't be at that place. And that's valid too. A hundred percent. And I think it's also important to highlight that like forgiveness doesn't mean readmission to our lives either. We can forgive people and be at peace with

their capabilities and their abilities to love or not love other people and move on and not accept it. And it doesn't make us bad or them incapable of growth and change. Right. I agree with that. Like, I want to continue to hope that bringing these stories to light will

will help other people as well who see these things in themselves because we're all human and we can all be abusive. It doesn't mean we're all abusers, but abusive behavior can, you know, we're human. I do appreciate the sentiment about sort of separating the person from their behavior and hoping that, hoping the best for them, even if that doesn't mean readmittance to our lives. Yes, you put that so well. Um,

Because I think that people do have the capacity for change. It's always going to be a matter of whether they want to, which abusers tend to not want to. I think if somebody reveals themselves over and over, believe them. Believe them. But something that I realized over the last year or two

is that it's okay for people to grow and change their minds and do better. And those people that are actually willing to say, you know what, at that time, I thought that was an okay thing to say or do, but I now take responsibility for the fact that it wasn't. But I think without that sort of approach and without the acceptance of responsibility and promise to do better, it's a lot harder to forgive people.

But ultimately, the forgiveness is really for ourselves. It doesn't change the things that you suffered and it doesn't change the things that Julia suffered. I hope that they do better and I hope they learn from this experience and I hope they hear this and that they think about their behavior and their approach and that there is possibility for change. I want to believe in change still. Me too. This has been really nice being able to share everything.

I really appreciate you taking the time and I'm so glad that we got to connect and it's, it's kind of amazing. You said you're 24 years old. Wow. That's kind of amazing to me. You seem very mature for your age. Well, thank you. I'm, I'm the oldest of five, if that helps at all. That makes more, that makes a lot of sense. It just feels so good to be believed. So good to be believed that,

I have an incredible family around me that has rallied in support from the oldest person to the youngest person. Although I don't share all of these details with my youngest siblings, they all, without question, without interrogation, said, yes, we believe you. Yes, we want healing for you. Yes, you're right. Yes, that was traumatizing. Makes me incredibly happy.

devastated for the countless individuals who don't have that support and who go to somebody and the first thing that they hear is you're lying or that's not true or he's a really nice guy I'm sure that you're mistaken so callous to take somebody who's putting everything out on the table

all of their trauma in an experience that can be re-traumatizing just talking about it and you invalidate that experience. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. And I just want to say thank you for agreeing to speak with me. It's taken a lot of bravery for you to speak with me about these things. And I really admire your commitment to yourself and

and your commitment to continue to feel your feelings and validate your own feelings for yourself because I think that's amazing and you deserve it. Thank you so much for having me. This has been a pleasure. Absolutely. On the next episode of Something Was Wrong, you'll meet Heather, whom grew up in multiple evangelical cults in Europe and the U.S., cults so abusive that some of its past leaders now find themselves in court rather than church.

next time. You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. You think you know me, you don't

Something Was Wrong is written, recorded, edited, and produced by me, Tiffany Reese. Music by Glad Rags. Thank you so much to each and every survivor for sharing their story. If you'd like to support the growth of the podcast, you can leave us a five-star review on iTunes, Spotify, or Google Play.

Support the podcast on patreon.com, share the podcast with your family and friends, or support our sponsors. Websites and resources mentioned on this episode can be found linked in the episode notes. Follow me on Instagram at lookyboo, L-O-O-K-I-E-B-O-O. Thank you so much. They think they know me, they don't know me well.

You think you know me, you don't know me well. I don't. You think you know me, you don't know me well. I don't.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

acts. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.