S5 E14: I'm Not Threatening You, I'm Promising You | Rachel
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Thank you so much. What I found out months later, my brother had tried to kill himself by jumping out of a second story window. And the only reason he is alive today is because Sarah saw him, grabbed him by his jeans and dragged him back inside.

And then my parents told her that the reason Daniel tried to kill himself was because she did a bad job of raising him. And then apparently they didn't tell anyone. He was on the roof? He was, I think he tried to jump from a bedroom window. He tried to jump out a windowsill.

I have been terrified my entire life of losing anyone I love to suicide, especially having a friend die so young, even though it wasn't suicide. It was first presented like that, and I still have this morbid fear of it. And my brother, it was this thing of like, I heard it and I was horrified. Then I was like, I knew something was wrong. I knew it. I could feel it. You think you know me, you don't know me at all.

So, and then like, well, but then it happened again. Cause I was like, well, how did social services get involved? Like, did you call? This is Sarah. Well,

Well, you know, no, I was really stressed out. And so I said something to my friend Anna and she said something to, she said something to her mom who's a mandatory reporter. And so then she had to report it. And, you know, so then they were having like conversations with the family all to like, and I, that made more sense to me as to why they were interviewing the family together because they weren't going at it from a case of you're being abused by your parents. They were coming at it from, you tried to kill yourself. What's happening.

My parents didn't want me to know because they knew I would lose it and make sure that Daniel was taken away. I think they told my siblings a yarn and my siblings believed it, one, because they knew

I have for a very long time felt like they were hiding things from me. And I don't blame them for this because I know what it's like to be in that situation and feel like you have to protect those people. But I definitely felt like I would hear about stuff, but it would be like six months after it happened.

And like barely any details to the point where you're literally on the other side of the country. Yeah. It was like, we want you to know what's happening in our lives, but we don't want you to actually be able to take action against it. And so it was always done in a way to where like, it was too late for me to like, like there was no smoking gun. I didn't have any way to like actually do anything about it. And I know my parents most likely cultivated that in them. I don't know how much of that they truly kept alive.

for me out of that fear, but it was definitely the sense of like, well, you know, she's volatile. You know, we have to like, just be careful what you say to her, which again is what my parents, that is my parents. Like I don't blame them for it because that, that language is what my, the parents put in my own mouth. Like, you know, I've said that those words because of what they've said to me. So I can't blame them. Cause I know, I know how they get you thinking like that. Apparently he tried to kill himself again.

And then he tried it again for a third time at a youth camp that he was at. And he got caught that time. And I...

lost my mind when I heard this. I was so furious. And I don't think I've truly even worked through my anger. A lot of stuff has been, had been happening while I was cut off from my parents, even in my own life. And the more I was cut off from them and the more I felt empowered to truly like state my own thoughts, state my own beliefs. And so I came out

Last year, on the last day of Pride, I came out on Facebook. And it was very nerve-wracking. And a lot of people were very, very responsive and very lovely and very kind. And a lot of people said very stupid things. And I had to block some people. And a lot of Jake's family members said stuff that

was not great. I'm so sorry. It was nowhere as bad as it could have been. I think Jake was more shocked, hurt, and furious than I was because I think I expected it and I don't think he did. So when that happened though, I'm not kidding you, that I came out and within a month, two different people who are part of that original cult that my parents had in Kinyusi contacted me

And I think me coming out on Facebook was a very clear indicator of like, oh, you are clearly no longer like anywhere connected with your parents if you are coming out. That was like such a thing in my family that they were like, oh, you're definitely safe to talk to.

And so they started communicating with me and I was being very open. You know, I was a very much an open book at this point. So I was like, they're like, how are you doing? How's this? I'm like, well, honestly, things aren't great. I'm not connected with my parents anymore. This is what's happening. And it's really interesting to me when you start telling the truth of what's actually happening to

People are like, oh, well, funny you should say that. This also happened to me and I didn't think much of it, but blah, blah, blah. And it was like so much stuff started to come out.

So the first lady that contacted me was Catherine, who was our babysitter way, way, way back when that we loved a lot. And she got married to a guy that lived in our house. And we were very close with. And then all of a sudden, my parents were like, nope, you can't go anywhere near him anymore. Like your dad's jealous. Like, well, not that you can't go near him. You just can't spend as much time with him. You know, your dad's jealous. Your little sister called him dad accidentally. And

you know, you just, you need to stop. And we were always very frustrated and hurt by them saying that because our father was never around and our mother was always busy and stressed. And this was someone that was very kind to us and read us books and like actually played with us. And

I confronted my mother, I think when I was 13. It was just before I went to Hawaii. I confronted her and said, even if that was the case, it was very selfish of you guys just because you were feeling threatened to stop us from hanging out with him. And she said, well, we didn't want to say anything, but we had found out his ex-wife had contacted us and we found out that

way back when in his first marriage that, you know, he had some trouble with like child pornography and, you know, had, well, not, she didn't even say child pornography. I take that back. He had some trouble, like, you know, he had some thoughts around kids and had some issues with that, but that's like, you know, that was way gone, but we found that out and we just wanted you guys to be careful around him.

It was such an insane thing to say at that time. Even then at 13, I was aware that my parents would come up with scenarios as to why they were right and someone else was wrong.

that I thought they were lying. Because I was like, you would never have allowed him anywhere near us at all ever again if that was the case. And he still lived with us and we were bridesmaids in his wedding. That clearly can't be the case. Like you would never have let us around him if that was the case. Like I didn't tell her I thought she was lying, but in my brain I thought she was. Cut.

Cut to, I've come out, it's last year, and Catherine, you know, we're getting to know each other again. We're chatting about our lives. Because I asked her, how are you? Like, what's going on in your life? And she said, well, I'm sure you've heard about my husband. And I said, no, what's going on? What do you mean?

And she sent me a link basically to news stories. And he had been arrested the year before. They had found the largest amount of child pornography in the area on his computer. He had photos of her nieces and nephews on his computer. It was horrific. And I like went cold in that moment because I was remembering what my mother had said to me. And I was like, holy shit.

Like, she wasn't lying. But that also made me feel weird because I was like, wait, she wasn't lying, but he still lived with us. And so I said, did my parents ever tell you that they thought that he was aware of this? And she said, well, what do you mean? I said, Catherine, they knew. And she was like, what?

And no, they never said anything. And I'm thinking back to like when this happened, I'm like, this was before they got married. And my parents kind of like pushed them together. Like they definitely like heavily implied that they were supposed to be together, that God had told them they were supposed to be together. Like I said, we were bridesmaids in their wedding. Like it was this huge, big thing. She was one of the original members of our church and one of my parents' best friends.

So she was one of your parents' best friends. She marries this other guy who you guys – who lived in the house. You guys had gotten close to him. And we'd known him for a while at this point. And then if I'm remembering correctly, your parents like got jealous and that's what they had originally told you. Yeah. And then your mom later tells you when you're 13 that the reason is because he – sorry, how did you word it? She said something about like he had –

struggled with feeling a certain way towards children in his first marriage. That had been a thing like way back when and his wife was letting us know, but it wasn't a thing anymore. It was something he had struggled with before, you know, but we still, we, we wanted to be extra careful.

Here's the thing. They weren't being extra careful, and it wasn't a thing that was in the way distant past that they had asked, like, you know, the wife had contacted them about. So Catherine is telling me all of this, and she...

is telling me that they said they didn't know. And I said, well, that timeline doesn't match up because they told me when I was 13. And that happened before you guys even started dating. So they would have known about this before that. And I was like, I am so sorry. And she was like, oh my God, this is crazy. And so she then went back and confronted my mother. And my mother said, I thought you knew.

And Catherine told me that she was like, I had a stress heart attack. Like I was so freaked out. And then, you know, so horrified at the thought that she would think that I would think that was okay. So then I went to my sister, Hannah, and I was like, what is happening? Like, and I guess she was like, well, I was there when mom was talking to Catherine and, you know, mom just honestly thought Catherine knew and, you know, going on and on and on. I said, Hannah,

Even if they fully thought that they had told her that everything was fine, why would you ever let someone you cared about marry someone like that? And she's like, I don't know. And I think she was definitely at a point where she's like, I don't know and I don't even have the energy to think about this anymore.

But I kind of pushed her on that. And a couple days later, she said like they got into a fight and she really began pressing my mom about that. And she said that she found out that

They had lied about the ex-wife. I don't know if they went and talked to the ex-wife after, but that was not how they found out that he had previous inclinations towards like pedophilia. What they had actually found was on our like computer in the house that everyone used, they had found child pornography on that computer. While this person is living with their children, to be clear. While this person is babysitting their children.

They didn't call the police. They didn't tell anyone. He still lived with us for a while. They just said, don't hang out with him alone. And then told us it was because dad was jealous. And then proceeded to place him and Catherine together. Not tell her. And then have the fucking audacity to say, oh, we thought you knew.

Her family were victimized by this man. It is my parents' fault. That blood is on their hands.

And she's so sweet. She was like, I don't know if I should be telling you this. I don't want to make things even more strained between your parents. I don't want to give you more anger towards them or more grief or more bitterness. And I said, Catherine, my entire life, I felt like something was off. But I also felt like I was just a bad kid or that they were just slightly strict. I said, you have just told me that not only... It's not that my parents are just slightly bad parents.

or strict, or mean. They are objectively evil people. It's like, you have freed me from so much guilt and stress right now. You have not burdened me. You have freed me. It was this intense crystallizing moment of, my parents aren't just crappy, abusive people to us. They're literally a danger to everyone they've come into contact with. They're actually not safe for the public. So we went back and forth, and it was

horrific for both of us, but I think explained a lot. And I think for her having me come up and say, no, they definitely knew beforehand made her feel less crazy and allowed her to be like, well, okay. They didn't just tell me and I forgot or decided that it was okay. Like, no, they hid this from me.

Which then I began thinking more because she said, now that I think about it, like I was so wrapped up in the church and I for a long time, personally, myself had felt like our church had been very culty, but I hadn't really said those words out loud. But she said, you know, Rachel, I felt like coming out of your parents' church, I felt like I had to be deprogrammed, like it was a cult. I was like,

Yeah. I was like, oh my God, it is. Yeah, you're right. This is what I've thought for so long, but I just thought I was being dramatic. She said, no. I literally told my parents that the church was more important than them, and I barely spoke to them for years.

I was like, oh, wait. And at this point, I love podcasts. I've been listening to a ton of podcasts about cults. The more I'd listen to them, the more I had felt like I recognized my parents in them. But when she said that, I was like, oh, well, that's classic cult behavior, you know, separating your followers from their family and making them feel like the mission is more important than anything else.

So that was intense. And then she said, you know, my sister, you know, they hurt so many people. My sister, who had moved up somewhere along the line to live in Kinyusi with her as well, at some point there had been another guy in the church that had like alcohol issues or something and they had problems.

And she didn't want it to have anything to do with this guy. And he ended up leaving the church and they basically made her feel like shit. Like it was her fault that this person, you know, she had chased him away from God. I was like, oh, that's another case of them trying to voice like these men who have intense issues onto women and then blame them when they don't fix them.

And then I remember the third time, way, way, way, way, way back when, when they had their church was going strong. And can you see the guy that, I don't know if you remember the story where I told you about the guy who walked up and yanked on my, my braids and then I punched him and I got in trouble for that. The guy who also stabbed somebody or came home stabbed? Yeah.

That was a different guy. Oh, okay. This guy, he was called Davey. And he was also the one that showed up drunk and was trying to get inside the house. And we had to hide under a table.

He was obsessed with this lady in the church and he would tease her constantly and make remarks. And looking back at it now, it seems a lot like sexual harassment. And back then it was like a joke in the church. And my dad thought it was funny. And she would be so angry and yell at him so much for it and be so mean to him. And I remember one time being in the car, like it was so clear this guy had a big crush on her and she was not having it.

And my dad said something along the lines of Rosalind's just, she's just too picky. You know, the only perfect man is Jesus. And if she's looking for the perfect man, like she's just going to be alone forever. And at the time I thought that was a weird thing to say. And I looking back, I was like, Oh,

oh my God, there is a pattern. There is a crazy pattern in this church of you trying to like fix these men by getting these women to like either be in relationships or marry them and then blaming them when the men, when it doesn't work out.

and attacking them if they don't comply. They were using these women in the church to like rehab these men. Well, and there's also, I think, this idea in a lot of churches or even evangelical Christianity where it's like marriage is God's plan and the family unit is God's plan. And when that's broken, that's what causes a lot of, you know, pain in people's lives. And so, you know, that's how we fix it. And it's these women who just don't want to follow God's plan. They're not being obedient or, you know, they're not doing this or they're not doing that.

And it was weird because I had never ever like thought of any, like there was never like a sexual component to our cult. But when I think about it, it was like almost like the opposite of it. Like there wasn't like sexual promiscuity, but there was this like intense need to control everyone's like relationship and create relationships and control like couples. Yeah. That's some cult shit. Yeah. And I like, I had never like put all the pieces together. And I remember talking with Catherine and just like going up to my husband and being like,

He was like, he heard all of it. And he was like, Oh my God. I was like, I wasn't crazy. I told you it was a call. He was like, you did. You must've felt so validated. Oh my God. I like, yeah. And I like, I think she felt bad. Cause she could tell like how affected I was by it and how I was like, what? I was so angry for her, but I think she didn't want to cause me more pain. You know, she felt so bad. And like,

To this day, we talk. She's like, I just, I wish I could have done something. I wish I had seen what was happening. Like, we were all there and none of us saw it. My dad is so good at this stuff. And my mom is so good at this stuff. Like, I didn't even know what was happening to me. And it was happening to me. Like, that's what happens when you're around people like that who control that narrative and create that lie. Like, it's not your fault.

We had another lady in the church who, she was the one who her family lived with us for a little bit. And her kids were seen as the perfect kids, you know, my parents' eyes. And we weren't perfect. And that's why they got mad at us. And my parents made me believe that she was out to get me. And this woman was constantly like trying to hurt me. And I had hated her for so long. She actually contacted me. And at this point, I think I was shocked to hear from her, but I was also like,

Well, if I thought you were a bad person growing up, you probably weren't. You know, I was very blunt. I said, you know, I growing up, I felt like you hated me and I felt like you made my life miserable. And I thought that you were out to get me. She's like, I'm so sorry. I wasn't. And, you know, she was like, I wish we could assume what was going on. Like we knew that we really, you know, we felt like there was weird stuff going on, but we didn't truly know what was happening.

But out of that, it was like I started talking to her and she started talking to Catherine. And Catherine was like, well, you're clearly telling me that your parents knew and allowed you to live alongside a potential like pedophile slash child molester. You know, he could have done whatever he wanted to me.

Thank God he just was comfortable just looking at me, but he could have done whatever. Like he would tell me I was beautiful all the time. And I would always like think it was weird because I was like, I'm clearly not, you know, I didn't think I was ugly, but I was like, I'm a ragamuffin running around with like mud in my hair. Like I know I'm objectively currently not beautiful.

But he was obsessed with like telling me that. I always had thought that was weird and had been irritated by it. And so looking back, I'm like, oh, my God. Like I know I know exactly what he meant when he said that now. And like it feels awful. I'm so sorry.

Before I knew all of this, I would just think, oh, I thought it was weird because I was so insecure. I didn't think I could be beautiful. And I was so freaked out. But I thought that, you know, anyone would think I was beautiful. You know, that was the reason I found it weird. And now looking back, I'm like, oh, no, that was not the reason I found it weird. That was your gut telling you this something is wrong. That was my gut saying like an adult man should not be telling like a scrappy little child that they thought they were beautiful.

So now everybody's getting connected. So you're connecting with Catherine and Catherine's connecting with this other lady. Yeah. And you're all kind of piecing it together. Yeah. And it felt like we were almost creating like this little like X support, like the support group for X members of my parents' churches. Yes.

But Catherine reached out to me. She said, you know, the more I think about it, she's like, I'm a mandatory reporter. Your parents allowed like a potential pedophile and child molester to live with you. Like I have to report that. She's like, I was like, girl, if you haven't already reported it, report it.

And apparently a while ago, Haley had actually reported some concerns as well. Haley is the other lady, but it hadn't gone anywhere. Apparently when Catherine reported what she knew, they said that this family was known to them and said that several reports had been made. And I think Haley's was one of them. But I think Catherine's report was what pushed it over the edge. And that's when the police actually got involved.

That's when it stopped being like, oh, we're talking to your brother because he tried to kill himself. And it went to like, oh, something's wrong. And so that was...

September of last year. And I had just gone in for a operation on my wrist. I had a fall a couple of years ago and I developed like a cyst on my wrist. And so I was getting it removed. And so I had had that done and I was very nervous for it, but it went well. And so I was in bed and I get a message from Catherine and she said, I just had a policeman call me about my report I made about what happened. He wants you to call him. Here's his number. And

And I have been piecing this stuff, I tell you, I've been piecing this stuff together for like four or five years at this point. I've been processing it for so long, piecemealing all this information together for so long. In with like a month of talking to these people, I suddenly have a policeman wanting to talk to me. And I know exactly what it's about. And I'm holding this number like, oh my God, it's here. It's here. It's here.

So I called him and he basically said, like, is this true? And I gave him a statement over the phone and we talked about it for a long time. And he said, OK, this is not OK. And I need you to write up your statement and send it in. But we're most likely going to remove your siblings from your parents home this weekend and arrest them.

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I tell you, I thought I was in the Twilight Zone. Like after years of this stuff happening and people finding out and nothing happened. Like I was, oh my goodness. And I was also just hopped up on pain meds as well from my surgery. So it was so surreal.

And the next day I wrote it up and I hadn't been feeling very well, but I thought it was just from the surgery. And I wrote up my statement. I sent it in. And that next day I got a call from my sister and she said, Hey, they've removed our siblings. Like I'm now taking care of them. They removed Daniel and Sarah. They removed Daniel and Sarah. She wasn't 18 yet. And she was also still in the house and they couldn't leave her there.

I mean, I'm glad they didn't. Yes. Well, and they got a statement from Hannah. And then Hannah basically said, we need to talk to Sarah. And she was like, okay, well, I'll call her because she wanted to be there with her. Hannah's so lovely. Yeah, she's great. She didn't want Sarah to be on her own when the police talked to her. So she called Sarah and asked her to come to the house. And Sarah sat there and they gave them their statements.

And I come to find out later because I was like, well, where's Rebecca and all of this? So Rebecca had moved out and had gone to a different church and was making some friends. And one of them was a professional counselor and had kind of been slowly talking to Rebecca on the side. You know, it was like official therapy, but she was definitely like sitting down and like helping her process things.

And some stuff had happened in the house. I think it was like the last time my brother tried to kill himself and it got really bad. Rebecca actually called up this friend and said, like, I need to get out. Like, something is really bad. And so she went to go stay at this friend's house and told her everything.

And, you know, she's a counselor. So like Rebecca knew like if she told her like it was going to get out and kudos to her. She she did what I couldn't. She had the knowledge she was there and she went and told someone. And it was weird. It all happened at once because I think Rebecca told them that. And then Catherine called and then Haley followed up for a second time. It was like everything happened at once. And they were like, OK, we need to do something.

Thank God. Yeah. And Rebecca, again, the poor thing, like she knew what she had done. And so she was terrified that we would hate her. She was terrified. Like I, I will confess, I was a little frustrated that she knew for a couple of days that this might happen. It didn't tell us because it was so like crazy and stressful when it happened, but I was so proud of her and so thankful that like, I knew stuff had been happening for years, but I also knew that they weren't telling me. And finally, you know, she had,

gathered the bravery and the courage to do this. So all of this is happening and I'm still, it's still like in the works. Like they interviewed Hannah and Sarah and they said, okay, we're going to come tonight and take Daniel and

And so that happens Sunday night and I'm still feeling kind of really, really crappy. And Monday rolls around and I'm feeling awful, awful. And so I actually ended up going to urgent care and my husband had had like walking pneumonia about a month before. And I was like, Hey, you know, my husband had this, I think I might have, you know, pneumonia and so much stuff is going on and I'm in the urgent care. And this nurse looks at me and goes,

Why do you think you have pneumonia? And literally 10 seconds later, I pass out. And then I wake up and I have EMTs all around me. I'm being strapped to a gurney. Like they said, my brain had lost so much oxygen that like I could have been dead. Like if I hadn't gone to urgent care. And so I,

All of this is happening. As my family has been ripped apart and my parents are arrested, my parents were arrested that night and spent a night in jail. I am also in the emergency room for hours as they're doing tests. They finally figure out, yes, it is pneumonia. I think I was on oxygen for 24 hours. I was in the hospital for three days, basically. I'm so sorry. I hope they still had you on drugs or something. Oh, yeah. I was so hopped up. But it was one of those things where so much was happening that I was in a state of almost like...

well, this might as well happen. What else can happen? Like it was, I was, again, I think it's that self-defense mechanism where like when shit really hits the fan, you just kind of make jokes about it because you don't know what else to do. I remember I was so thirsty and so exhausted and they wouldn't let me sleep when I got to the emergency room. And I was there for like, I think three or four hours before they actually admitted me and they wouldn't let me drink anything. But they finally admitted me into hospital, I think around like 12 o'clock at night.

And everyone left. My husband had to go home. I was hooked up to this machine. You know, I had IVs in my arm. I was trying to sleep in a way where I didn't jostle them. And it was like the reality, like everything was like still. Like the first time that entire weekend, like the reality like hit me. I've never felt more alone and more, I don't just lost.

Like in that second, like I was truly like, there was no going back. There was no me. There was no more of me being like, this is your last chance. Or, you know, saying like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not going to talk to you or like, I'm mad at you. Like there was no way our family would ever, ever go back to the way it was. Like, this was like truly like a change. My family, as I had known it for the past 26 years of my life,

was no longer a thing. And that's good, but it's still a loss. I sat there and all of a sudden, I'm remembering all the good times. I'm remembering all the times my mom went out super late in the snow to get us extra Christmas presents because she found something. And even though my dad didn't want her to spend money, she just thought it was so cute and she wanted us to have it. I'm remembering all this little stuff that my parents did and all the good times. And I just, I'm alone.

I'm freezing cold. My IV thing won't stop fucking beeping. And I just started bawling. I felt like there was no one I could talk to. In that moment, I think I tried to call my grandmother. I tried to call my mom's mom just to be like, I need to talk to you. Honestly, in that moment, I wanted to talk to my mommy.

You know, everything was falling apart and I wanted my mom and I didn't have a mom anymore. You know, I hadn't had a mom for a long time, but I, and so I did the next best thing. I called her mom, my granny, but the time difference was gone. So she didn't pick up. So I was alone. I think I ended up. It feels like grief is what you're describing in a lot of ways. I, yeah.

It felt the same as when my friend died. I don't think I would fully have understood how much I was grieving if I hadn't like had the experience of losing, of having someone actually die and not there be there anymore. Like it was the same sensation that the family that I knew as my family was dead and could never be again. Even if by some like miracle, my parents got their crap together and like became amazing. Like we would never go back. Like everything was gone.

And regardless of how amazing that was and what a blessing that was and how good that is in that moment, it was just like so much had happened and I was alone and I was so scared.

I woke up the next morning and my husband came in and I was like, my sister just has my brother. Like there's like, everything's insane right now. My parents are still like in jail. I'm like contacting like, you know, Catherine and Haley because, you know, they knew like stuff was going to happen because they were contacted. So, so they arrested your parents when they took Daniel? They did. Okay. And they, they later, you know, said, we don't have enough to charge you on.

So they released them after that night. And apparently I found out later that like, yeah, they refused to admit to anything. And my mother pretended like nothing had happened.

Which is not great. And then apparently the person, the mother of my sister's friend who had reported it, apparently my dad said something to her like, well, I just don't understand why you had to get the police involved. I don't understand why it was so serious that you had to like call the police. Like, I just don't get it. I'm like, cool. Even in the moment where the literal police are taking your kids away from you, you still don't understand why your actions are such a big deal. Like, you truly have...

don't care. So it's the next day. It's my first day in hospital. I finally had enough fluids and everything. And so I felt refreshed and like, okay. And then reality set in. I was like, my parents had just been arrested. My siblings are going crazy trying to get set up.

No one's told our family. Our grandparents don't know. Our cousins and aunts don't know. No one knows what's happening. Oh, okay. This is something I have to do. This is how I can contribute to my family. So I had to call my grandmothers and tell them what had happened. And it is a weird thing having to call both of your grandmothers and tell them that their children are in jail for hurting you.

My mom's mom had not wanted it to end like this, but I think was kind of had seen a possibility of that coming because I had been talking to her for a while and had, you know, slowly been letting her in on what had been what I knew had been happening. You know, I didn't know half the stuff that was actually happening. She's so great. Like my mom would like text her about stuff and she would instantly like text me and be like, your mom's saying this and like, blah, blah, blah. And like, make sure that I knew whatever my mom was saying about us.

But I had to call my dad's mother. And she was the one that, you know, we've been told, like, don't ever tell her what's happening because you'll wreck her and dad's relationship. And how can you do that to your dad? And, you know, they should be, they should be able to get along and they should be able to have a relationship and you can't ever tell her, like, she'll never, like, forgive you or she'll never, like, be able to handle it.

But it was in that moment where I was like, okay, this is so stupid. Like, no, she has to know. I have to tell her. I have to. And I think I felt that for a while, but have been trying to build up the courage to broach that with her. And like, how do you even begin that conversation? But hey, I've been not telling you for all these years of what's happening. And this finally got to the point where I was like, okay, well, she has to know. Like either she's going to find out one way or another. And I want her to find out for me.

So I had texted my cousin. We hadn't really interacted very much. I mean, we weren't very close to that side of the family at all. Stuff had just been really hard. And their relationship with my parents were really strained. And, you know, they said like, you know, they just, they don't really like you guys. And, you know, they're not good people or they're not, you know, they don't.

They're too busy. They don't want to come off and visit. You know, they'll see us when they see us. And it was just, you got this sense of like, they just didn't, you were part of their family and they saw you now and then because of that, but they didn't really care. And this was your dad's side of the family, right? Yes. Yes. And that was like what we got from like my mom and my dad constantly. Yeah.

And I had kind of been connecting with my cousin now and then, but I also felt kind of like I didn't want to come on too strong and be like, Hey, you know, I want to be best friends. If you know, they didn't, if they thought it was weird, you know, that was the feeling where they think we're weird. But I texted her and I was like, Hey, this is going down. I'm going to call granny. Like make sure your mother, like make sure my aunt Elaine is like ready to like step in if she needs to. Cause I don't know what's going to happen.

And then I called my grandmother. And looking back, like, it seems almost comical now because I had to be like, hey, gran, I'm in the hospital with pneumonia. That's not the reason I'm calling you. Funny as that seems, I almost died from pneumonia. That's not why I'm calling. There's something worse. Looking back, I find the humor in it, but it was just like, oh, my God. Because she was like, you're in the hospital with pneumonia? I had to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. However, I told her. How did she respond? She howled.

Like I've never heard anyone cry before. I think I will be haunted by that sound for the rest of my life. She's such a strong person and she worked so hard to pull herself and her kids out of an abusive situation and she knows what it's like to be in there.

And she tried so hard to like instill that in her kids. And then she found out after like 26 years that her son, who she had tried to save from his abusive father, who went back to his abusive father and chose him over her, had been abusing his kids. She was broken and absolutely furious. Like,

And she's such like an amazing loving person. Like she was absolutely broken. And then the minute she like felt that I was like crying as well and stressed out, she was like, nope. She's like, granny loves you. Cause she was like, why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me? I was like, I didn't, we didn't know like what to do. We didn't know how you'd react. Like they made us feel like this. And like, she was like, no, she was like, granny loves you. Okay. She was like, your granny loves you. And I just,

I started like tearing up, you know, on the phone with her. And she, um, is also switched to like fury where she was like, she was like, they're so lucky. I have a heart condition. Cause otherwise I'm just going to march down the A nine and like beat him up myself. Like she was ready to go to war. I love her. So she's amazing. My granny's the best.

So I got off the phone with her. Like, you know, we, it kind of, we had said what we needed to say. And there was both a lot of emotions for us to process. So we got off the phone and then like five minutes later, I get a call back and I'm like, Oh, granny, are you okay? And it was my aunt Elaine. And my gran had told her what had happened and told her that, you know, that we basically thought that they didn't care about us and that,

you know, like us. And she called me back on an international call, spending money just to be like, I need you to know that like, we love you guys so much. And that was never the case. And your parents lied to you. And we always are sad that you weren't in our lives more. And like, we've got your back.

And I think when I called them, it was probably around 4 or 5 o'clock their time, p.m. And the next day, they packed up everything with my aunt and my uncle and my granny. And they drove down to Inverness. And they found my siblings. And they took them to the store, got them clothes, got them whatever they needed. Because they just had to grab stuff and leave. They didn't have time to get everything out. And got them set up and everything.

I had never in my life realized that we had family members that we could count on like that, that would do that. I don't think it even occurred to us to look for them, to look to them for help in that way. And so it was this crazy juxtaposition of like immense loss and pain and stress. And then almost like this wonderful gift of like reconciliation out of it. We lost our parents, but we gained our family back and they were,

loved us and supported us and like came to our aid like my my uncle on my mom's side sent money Catherine sent up money to like help with my siblings Jake's family heard about it and like within like one day of me telling them what happened his mom had gotten money together his grandparents had gotten money together his mom's sister had gotten money together like we didn't ask them for anything they just got together like sent in to help Hannah and Charles you know it was um

It was so weird because you were feeling so much. And I think for a while I was just so numb to it all because I was so overwhelmed with so much trauma and so much pain and grief, but being so overwhelmed with so much love and support that we've never had in our lives from people that, you know, were always family, but they were like very distant family that, you know, you saw every couple of years, maybe. And it was like, you know, you told them what happened and they just swarmed in to help.

And life is still hard. And, you know, it was hard for many months after that. But it felt like shit hit the fan and there was actually people there. We didn't know that. We didn't know there was going to be people there. Finally, people said enough and said something and did something. Well, yeah. And just to have people not only like be there, but to be so angry for you and protective over you. Like I'm not I'm not used to having family members be protective over me.

And like my uncle, he actually, when I came out on Facebook there was some people saying some nasty stuff and he like got on and just like read them to filth. And like, I haven't really spoken to him at much at this point. Like it was like, we were on good terms, but again, you see each other every couple of years, you know? And, but he just like caught on there and he was like,

She's not asking for permission. She's not trying to explain herself. She's just informing you. Her marriage has nothing to do with you guys. And it was just...

One of the most heartwarming moments of my life. And like, he messaged me after that and was like, he's like, I need to like, I went through your Facebook and I suddenly saw all these like vague things about abuse. Like what is happening? And so he found out all about this, like literally just before it went down. So it was like everything changed.

In a weird way, like me coming out put so many things into motion that helped us because I think this that would have happened. Like my parents being arrested would have happened regardless of that. But like that put me in contact with so many people that could actually like helped and like supported us once it did happen. And I don't know if I would have even had the courage to like talk to any of those people or know that beforehand. I'm so proud of you.

Like, that's fucking awesome, dude. It's incredible. Like what you overcame and what you've done and what your siblings have done for each other and how your family has been brought together.

Well, and to have like your grandma and your uncle talk about how proud they are and talk about it openly in social media and like how strong you are and how grateful they are to have you as part of their family. Like not only to like have support from your family, but to have them publicly claim you and be proud to be associated with you. I've never had. Yeah, man. It's amazing. Yeah.

So your parents ended up being released, you said, from jail. So they're not in jail right now? No. So they were released. Social services had determined that they were not suitable and had actually gotten them to sign over custody of my siblings to my sister. So regardless of what the court said, social services had decided that they could no longer be guardians. The police said that they were not going to be able to sign over custody of my siblings to my sister.

The policeman I originally spoke with on the phone was lovely, and he kept me up to date. I was emailing him constantly, and he emailed me back a lot and basically said that they are launching an investigation into my father and that it had gone into the domestic and child abuse crimes unit. And so I got transferred to another detective then and did my best to help the investigation anywhere it could. And they've decided to press charges against my father, so...

That is coming up soon. Don't know what's going to happen. It feels like finally coming full circle. And like way, I remember way back when as a child get into like a rough house fight and he wouldn't let me up. And I said, I'm going to call the police. And he said, call the police. I don't care. And would make comments about, I'll gladly go to jail for spanking my kids and being here and being like, good.

Well, guess what? I actually made you answer for your crimes. Like, I actually told someone, and they're holding you accountable. Hell yeah. It's... I think people always struggle when I tell my story. Like, they don't know what to say, and they don't know if they should feel bad or if it's good. And for me, it's like...

It was stressful and it was a hard thing to go through, but so much good, only good things could come out of it. And for me, it feels like a victory. Like I remember when I cut my mom off and I like, I promised her like, you hurt my siblings. You're starting a war. You won't win. I'm not threatening you and promising you. And I feel like come full circle and I've kept my promise. Nothing's fixed. Nothing is done. And my siblings and me have a ton to fight through, but

At least they're safe. Yeah. Yeah. They're charging both, right? No, they are not. So that is the hard part, is that that was hard for me. And I think all of my siblings was the fact that only my father is being charged. And not that...

I don't know if my mom should go to prison, but we definitely all had this sense of like, she was clinging so hard to her idea and her like story that she'd made up that if it was physically taken away from her, we didn't know if she would survive it. I remember my sister telling me that like she challenged my mom on something and they

They got into a fight and my mom flipped out. They were in the car driving and my mom flipped out. My mom was in the car in the passenger seat and started like freaking out, rocking backwards and forwards and hitting her head off the dashboard. Like to the point where my sister, Hannah, who told me that she thought I was overacting said, Hannah, like she told me I almost drove back and like had her admitted in the psych ward. And like, I've had multiple conversations with all my siblings where it's like, what is going to happen to her? She can't take care of herself. Yeah.

we can't take care of her. Like we can't have her in our lives, but yeah,

If our father is sent to jail, what does she do? And, you know, I even, I remember saying this to my siblings and them being like, yeah, being like, I would feel better if she was in jail because at least I know she would have like a place to sleep and like meals to eat. Like, I don't know what would happen. I don't know if she would end up on the streets. I don't know if she would end up hopeless. Like, and it's that thing of like, I don't want anything to do with her, but I don't, I want her to be safe at the same time. Like, I don't want that.

I don't want bad things for her. Right. Your dad was physically violent towards your mom. I mean, would you classify her as a victim as well?

Yes, but she also attacked us. But here's the issue. And the issue is that they can't prove any of our abuse. They can only prove the recent abuse against my brother by my father. So because of that, the history of abuse we gave for my mother, they can't prove. They don't have any. They don't have enough to charge her for that. I don't necessarily know a ton about what that will mean for her future, you know, what the other options are there.

And I mean, they were, they've this whole time, they're like, they've been keeping up with their church and they've even had like members of their church contact my siblings and like, wait, your dad's still a pastor right now. Is that what you're telling me? He, okay. So when I say pastor, he runs his own church out of his house. Like, but what, that's how he makes money.

I don't know if he's making money out of it, but, and I don't know if they're still doing that, but pretty much all of last year and early this year, my siblings were having issues because members of my parents like church were contacting them. My brother was on like a gaming chat room, like on discord. And one of the kids of my parents, friends contacted him and basically started like

saying all this stuff to him about how he deserved whatever happened to him. And it's because he was being a bad kid and that he needed to tell the social workers that he lied and get them to drop charges. And then we began having issues with people in that group showing up at my sister's places of work without us knowing, letting my parents know. And then like my parents would try to show up and catch the kids at work.

Because in their minds, they weren't technically underage, so they could come talk to them. Yeah, like there was one time where my sister Rebecca was getting ready. She had gotten a new job, and it was like after she'd moved out. My parents didn't even know what job she had. Yeah.

And she had to catch a bus after she was standing at the bus station, looked up and my parents were standing right there. Like the exact moment she got off of work and they were like walked across to try and come talk to her and she like got out of there. But we found out someone like sussed out where she was and then like let my parents know so they could show up.

Was that before the children were taken or after? Oh, no, this is after. What? Yeah, so we actually, like, it got to the point where, like, I mentioned it to police. And I think they stopped after a while. And I think my siblings, like, made it pretty clear that, like, we do not want anything to do with you people. But yeah, for a while, like, it was to the point where I was pushing to get restraining orders, like, for all of us against our parents because I didn't know what was going to happen.

And I was very much aware of the fact that like, usually like you were never in more danger than when you leave your abusers and we had left. And I felt like still my siblings were still very much, they'd gotten out of that situation, but they hadn't truly realized like how bad it was. And like, even now talking to them, they're like, now that we're out of it, I, I, I can't even imagine ever going back into that, but you don't know that until you're out. Right.

So I was definitely very worried. Again, after so many years of them not telling me things, I was really worried that stuff was happening and they weren't taking it seriously. So there was a time where I pushed for all of us to get restraining orders, but Sarah still needed to go through them for school. And my mother kept losing her exams that she needed to send in so Sarah would have to redo them. And I don't know this for sure, but I have a heavy suspicion that my mother was doing that so that she could still have access to Sarah.

It got to the point where like they sent like, I think Rebecca's birthday, no, Sarah's birthday was very soon after they were taken away. And my parents had friends like deliver presents to the house. And like my father like wrote her a letter and like did that whole thing where he was super sincere and like kind in ways that he had never been kind to her before. And she was super conflicted and everything.

And my mother actually, get this. So my birthday, I think, was in March. And my mother, I had blocked her and everything. And my husband had also blocked her. But she somehow got a hold of his number or she texted him from a different number and said, like, hey, this is Carla. And was like, don't block me. I just want your address so I can send my daughter, like, a birthday present. Like, I still have faith that, you know, one day we'll all, like, be reconciled and we'll have a relationship again. Like, please don't, like...

take the only lifeline I have away from my daughter. You know, I just want to give Rachel a birthday present. And I'm like destroyed because on one hand, like it seems so sad. And then the other hand, I'm like, bitch,

I'm giving you my address. Like, what the fuck? Like, I don't want a gift from you. Like, how could you go through all of this and think it's still important for you to like, give me a gift? Like one, you truly are so delusional. You don't understand what's happening. Or two, like you're trying to figure out how to get ahold of me. I'm like,

either are awful wow and so he was like i don't want to do i said i can't tell you what to do you know because it's your own decision but i would block her and not respond like you don't have to do anything and that's what we ended up doing but it was like even in that moment she was still trying to like send me things and it's like you have to like you made your choice you don't get to stand by the person who abused us and still get to have your mommy moments still get to like

be a parent and still get to have those privileges. Like you lost that the minute you chose him over us.

sorry if it hurts sorry if it's sad like yeah it's fucking sad for us too bitch you made your bed lying it i'm not gonna help you feel better about your shitty behavior no and i so you can send me a gift and feel better about yourself i don't want anything to do with you and they're they're so delusional to the point where like my uncle will like show me messages from her where like you know he's calling around she's like my kids are fine they're happy i see them in town all the time and like

great, are you spying on us some more? Like what's happening? Like that's her response? Yeah. Yeah. Like there were, I mean, there were times where my siblings would be running around town because they have to like get stuff and they'd be like in constant fear that they were going to run into like my parents. And sometimes they would, because guess what? My parents were still out on the streets preaching. And then after like a lot of people knew what was going on, they started going to other towns that weren't in the area and preaching on the streets there. Yeah.

So it was shocking to how I was like, okay, so the worst thing in the world has happened to your family and you are still running around and acting like nothing has happened. Like what world do you people live in? Do you think that it's like an inability to understand or an unwillingness to understand? I think it is the only thing they know. And if they fully accept the fact of what they have done,

Like this is their, this has been their livelihood. This has been like what they believe their mission was for my entire life. They don't have this anymore. Like it's a very weird thing to have a conversation with your sibling and say, I wouldn't be surprised if I woke up one day and found out that my father had killed my mother and shot himself.

And to have your sibling go, yeah, that sounds about right. It was surprising to me that the thought of that was not surprising. You know, that's what was scary about that. That seemed logical. Like this is someone who whenever anyone got close to figuring out like his dark and dirty secrets, he would abuse us to make sure that didn't happen. What are you going to do when it's in the papers and everyone knows who you are and what you've done?

And I don't want that to happen, but to have that thought and have it not be shocking and have it seem like a logical outcome, like that, that was shocking to me.

Have you ever felt like you wanted to reach out to them or have you felt like there's nothing left? I think in my brain, my family is my siblings and they willingly removed themselves from my family. I, I know I don't have parents because they, it's, it's not, they don't even exist in my brain. Like as far as like, I don't, when me and my siblings like,

all of our energy now goes into like building our family together. And we have actually like really connected. And like, I think I'm closer with my siblings than I ever have been. And I think we're really building something beautiful with, you know, my siblings and my other family. And they are the ones that took themselves out of that. And they no longer get to have that. Yeah. Sometimes being estranged from people is like,

starting your life for the first time and it's actually incredibly free. And yeah, there's a whole lot of unlearning to do, but it is so beautiful.

When I first was estranged from my father, I, you know, after a while, once I got over the raw pain of that, I felt like I could breathe. And when he wrote me that letter and I realized I was supposed to write him back, I felt suffocated again. And like, I was forced to like interact with this person again. And it was that realization of, I don't want them in my life. I don't want to go back to that. I don't ever want to go back to that. And to realize that like, I wasn't necessarily looking for reconciliation. Yeah.

A hundred percent. And it doesn't mean that you don't have the ability to forgive people. People always talk about how, like, I don't think our culture has a good understanding of forgiveness. And I think some of that comes from a misuse of Christianity in the Bible. Like people always talk about forgive and forget.

Bible doesn't say forgive and forget. It says God forgives you and doesn't remember your sins. It doesn't say you have to forget. It says forgive. It doesn't say forget. Also, if I choose to work through and let go of the pain and the anger that you caused me, that is between me and whatever God slash universe I believe in. And you actually don't come into the equation at all. It has nothing to do with you. You don't matter anymore. And that's

you know, part of forgiveness is not letting that person hurt you anymore. And that's about you. It's not about them. It has nothing to do with them. You're like, you're picking you, your siblings are choosing your, your happiness and joy. Like who wants to be a part of that other shit? Why would you like, why would you ever want to go back to that when you have all this beautiful outcome? Well, and people say, you know, like the opposite of love is not hatred, you know, it's apathy. And when I think when you hold hatred and bitterness, it's,

You know, part of that comes when you are so caught up in that cycle of pain and you haven't necessarily worked through it yet. And so when you get to the point where you can truly forgive, you know, in the way that it's understood, where it no longer bothers you or you're able to like think about it without having that pain, like that means that you no longer, they are no longer of consequence to even bother you. They don't mean anything anymore. Yeah.

I just think it's so incredibly moving that you stepping into yourself and your siblings doing the same and you coming out inspired so many people to come out and share their truth too. And like, look what has come of it. That is incredible. It has been insane. And I think...

I always shy away from looking at things like that because it feels like, oh, it was God's plan, blah, blah, blah. And so I think I almost refuse to look at it like that. But my husband will be like, just like, stop, like, look, look what your decisions have done. Like, look what this path has done. Like, I know it's been hard and I see you struggle through it, but like, look at what, look at what's happened, you know? And I'm really thankful that I have a partner who's able to do that for me when I can't do it for myself. Yeah.

But it is crazy to look back and to take those steps to distance myself from what I thought was right and to feel conflicted about it and to feel like, am I making things worse or am I a bad person? And then to look back now and realize that none of this would have happened without that.

And to feel for so long after feeling like a toxic person and feeling like no matter what I did, I would hurt those around me to realize that like stuff that I chose to do to accept myself, like actually ended up helping people. It's such a reversal of how I used to think about myself.

I mean, the more people talk about their stories, the more people feel free. Like, that's the biggest thing I feel like I've learned on this. Like, I talked about being bi, and then people were like, oh, I can probably talk to you about this, which then, you know, led to us talking about my parents, which then led to us discovering that they had done some horrible things, which then led to us actually telling the police about it, which led to...

one, my siblings getting rescued and two, this lovely woman not feeling like, you know, it was her fault that this horrific thing happened to her. Yeah, I think sometimes people find it hard to think about and look up and to look at the dark places in life. But,

But from what I've seen, whenever someone does that, someone else feels like they're not as weird or they're not as alone. And so then they feel more comfortable telling what happened to them. And then someone else feels more comfortable about telling what happened to them. Like growing up, I was always told, well, the truth will set you free. And I was like, oh my God. And it was very much like, well, Jesus is the truth. And that's what that means. But as I get older now and I'm like, you know, that rings very true for me in a very, you know, different non-religious way now. But like,

Yeah, I told the truth and someone else told their truth and someone else told their truth. And it set me free from a lifetime of second guessing myself and of abuse and of taking responsibility for pain that wasn't mine.

That's incredibly poetic. Thank you so much for doing this and being on the podcast. I can't, it's wild because you and I started talking and life's been so nuts. But like the stuff happening with your parents and stuff. I remember we like originally connected. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I definitely want to talk to you. Like I definitely want to talk to you. And then you're like, oh, update. Like my parents are in jail. I know, I was like-

I always think things with each story that's been on the podcast, like the timing is always like somehow it's exactly what I like need to hear in that moment. And like hearing you speak has just been like so incredibly healing for me in so many ways. And like, it, I, it makes me really like feel like I could share my story one day because when it's childhood trauma and it's like,

your whole life? Like, how do you explain how somebody hurt you for your whole life? How do you, like, how do you summer, like how, where to begin? Like, what do I even remember? Like, first of all, you know, but like hearing so many of the things that you described, it's just like, yeah, I fucking feel that on a spiritual level, what you just said, like, and we could not grow up in more different environments in terms of the vibe and aesthetic, but like,

And like the belief system and stuff. But it's like none of that really actually matters because the abuse is so linear. Yeah. It wasn't the belief system. It was the abusive people who always use whatever they can to control people. Yeah. And even just like the little things like.

Our kids just want us to show up and fucking be proud of them. And when they give a speech, just say, you did fucking awesome. You are amazing. You did incredible. Save your critique. Children need to be appreciated. And I think we as adults sometimes forget in our shuffle that these are tiny human beings with all of the same feelings that we have. They

They don't deserve any less than we do. They don't deserve to feel afraid. They don't deserve to feel overpowered. They don't deserve to feel like shit, you know? And, um,

Yeah. It's just been incredible to hear you speak and to hear the things that you shared. And I also just think it's like really super cool to have you speak about not only your coming out story, but also like learning about your autism diagnosis and how that, how, how your brain processes things and how your experience was because I,

I've learned so much through that as well. And I think it will help me actually be a better mom to my kids. Oh my God. Like, I'm really not trying to make you cry right now, but like that is legitimately how I feel. Like I've, every time we've spoken, I've talked to my husband afterwards and I'm like,

I don't even know how to describe to you how like on a religious level in the most ironic way, this has been so healing and helpful for me. I told my therapist I was doing this and he literally said like,

Because I originally would have had to go back to testify against my father, but they decided they didn't want to pay for me to go to Scotland to do that. And my therapist was like, you know, I thought it would have been really good for you to do that. And I said, well, I'm doing this podcast. And he, like, I told him what was happening. He said, like, I think this is going to be like a massive part of your healing journey. Like you actually, like, he's like, this is you like getting to testify in a sense, like getting to stand up and tell the world exactly what happened. And it's been so rewarding.

Like this has been so cathartic and healing for me. There's almost a stress around the story because you're trying to like convey to people like what happened and one story leads to another story. And it's like, it's really hard for people to process. And they're like, wait, you just realized that you're autistic. And then you realize that you're a bi, but wait, you were abused. And wait, your parents are like arrested and like,

There's so much and you feel like you're never getting to fully tell your story. For me, I think I always have stress around people not being able to fully get people to understand what I mean, never being able to find the correct words. And there's always just this sense of like, I

can't say what I mean and people don't actually like I'm saying what makes sense in my brain but people don't seem to be understanding it or I can't get it all out for them to understand like what actually happened and to actually be able to go like year by year and event after event and like be able to like deconstruct it even like listening back and hearing myself talk about it and it making sense has been like so healing.

And like my family members reached out and being like, hearing this just helps me understand so much of what you went through. Like, this is like, thank you for doing this. Like them being able to benefit from that and like having them like say that to you and like, we get it. And like, we finally understand after all these years is like.

You deserve to have justice and you deserve to have healing and validation. And I'm just like so thankful to you. And definitely you'll have to keep me updated as things develop. Yeah. With your parents and or with your dad and his trial. And I'm just like, I hope he'll be held accountable. Me too. Well, and part of me is like sad that we're at the end because I'm like, I love talking to you. I like you a lot. Yeah.

I like you a lot too. I feel like you're someone I've known for years. I don't know, just the way I can talk to you is so, we're on the same level, I almost feel like. Yes. I feel like a kindred spirit. It's weird too because I just listened to my gut and I just had something in my gut when you reached out to me that I was just like, I don't know, there was just something there. It's pretty beautiful. Yeah.

Thank you again for doing this. I just can't say thank you enough. Yeah. And I hope one day we meet in person. Me too. I'm like sad. I'm like, well, I guess if you just want to call me sometime and we can vent about whatever. Absolutely. You think you know me, you don't.

Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at patreon.com slash somethingwaswrong. Something Was Wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum.

At somethingwaswrong.com, you can remain as anonymous as you need. Thank you so much for listening. They call me up on the telephone, and I find I know. They think they know me, they don't know me well.

You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well at all.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.