S5 E13: Declaring War | Rachel
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her and dad got into this fight and like he pushed her and hit her. And she had told her not to tell anyone at their therapy because other people were there that were involved with other churches and everyone would know. And so she wasn't supposed to tell anyone and she didn't feel right about it, but she felt like God told her to just do it anyway. And so she did. And I was like, no mom, what are you? And she was like, I don't know. And she,

told me that she was having visions and that she had this vision of social workers coming to take my brother away and that she was scared that things weren't changing and that people were going to know and that my brother was going to be taken away from us.

And I remember just crying and saying like, mom, give him to me. Like I will take him. I will take him to America. I will like, I will take care of him. And she was like, no, no, no, I can't. I'm like, you literally believe that God has told you that your family is going to get ripped apart and your brothers, my brother's going to be taken away. And you still like, you think it's bad enough right now that you think my dad is hurting Daniel bad enough that he'll be taken away and you still won't give him to me. Like I was so frustrated, so angry and so angry for her as well. I've been like,

How dare he hit you and then forbid you from telling your therapist who's meant to be helping you guys. And he knew he would be held accountable probably. Well, here's the thing. She was also talking about feeling very frustrated because she,

they wanted you in therapy to talk about like the issues and why like you don't get along anymore. My father brought up my mother sending that letter to the church in Hawaii and how he could never trust her again after that. And she broke his trust and blah, blah, blah. They made my mother apologize to my father for doing that.

Are you kidding me? Who made her apologize? The church? The therapists. The therapists? Okay, I should not call them therapists. They were not therapists. They were a Christian. Church counselor? Yeah, Christian ministry for like marriage.

Okay. They made your mom apologize for reporting your dad's abuse. And I don't know how they, how my father phrased it. I'm not 100% sure, but yeah, they made because my mother broke and it was very much that thing of like, you don't do that. And I was furious about that. So I've learned all of this.

And then literally the next day, like the next morning, I have to leave. And like up until now, everyone's been telling me everything's fine. Things don't feel fine, but everyone's been telling me everything's fine. My father apparently just liked my motherfucking face because I thought everything was great. And now my mother is sobbing, built over, rocking because she has this premonition that things are going to get so bad and she somehow feels like it's just supposed to happen.

Like she's not even saying like, take him, save him. It's like, she's just like, this is what's going to happen. God's just preparing me to go through this. Wow. Yeah. And I, at that point was like, Oh God, like you've literally told me you think things are bad enough that he'll be taken away and you still won't give him to me. Crap.

Like, wow. We're past the point of no return. So I, and she's like, don't, you can't tell anyone I'm telling you. It's like, he wouldn't let me tell anyone. And I'm like, you know, I'm even, I don't even know if I should be telling you this, but you know, she decided to tell me anyway. And so I have to go through the rest of the day, just stunned feeling like I don't understand what's going on. And this whole two weeks have been a time for us to all really like reconnect. It was the first time we'd been together for so long and like, it was wonderful. And then it felt like everything was destroyed. Yeah.

by that. And I remember the next morning I'm getting ready and everyone's super emotional. And I look over and my little sister, Sarah is sitting on the steps to her house, crying like she is in pain, bitterly crying. And I start crying and my mom starts crying and Rebecca starts crying and Hannah had gotten married. And so I'd say goodbye to her the night before. And we both howled

And then cried all the way home to the point where like, I was like in the fetal position in my house or in my parents' house when I got back. And like all the girls had like never seen, they'd never seen me cry before. Like they'd never seen me show any emotions. And all of a sudden I was super emotional. And it was also interesting during that trip because everyone kept saying like, wow, you guys are just so nice. You guys are so lovely. Like your relationship is so nice. Like it's so, you're so fun to be around. And,

It was a crazy reminder of like, oh, like we're just being normal. And y'all are so fucked up that you think that we're extraordinary because we're being nice to each other. So I walked away just feeling so much pain and whatnot. And then my family starts bawling as I'm leaving. And it wasn't like a sad, it was like painful. It felt like we had been like ripped from each other.

And so I cry all the two hours to the airport. My little brother comes with me because he has been like latched onto my side this entire time. Like he's been my little baby this entire trip. And he came with me because he didn't want to say goodbye. So we drove all the way up those two hours together.

And we get out the car and he holds on to me and I can tell he's crying, but he's like embarrassed that he's crying. So like he doesn't want me to see his face. He, I think was 10. Yeah. And so he lets go and he's crying and trying to hide it. And then my dad hugs me goodbye and my dad pulls away and he has tears running down his face. And I've never seen my father cry before. And I don't, I,

I've never seen him show emotions and he pulled away and he had tears rolling down his face and he looked so sad and so broken. And I am just stuck in this like agony of being, I was so angry and frustrated and he lied to me and he hurt my mom and he hurt my siblings. And at the same time,

He's hugging me goodbye and he's more distraught than I've ever seen him in my entire life. And he's showing more emotion and care towards me than he's ever done in his entire life. And I don't know what the fuck to do. I'm walking away knowing, like after my mom told me that I was like, I told him what would happen the last time we talked. I told him that if he kept doing this, I would not stay silent. I'm going to have to do something. And I don't know if he just had a sixth sense, but it felt like,

It felt like he knew that was the last time I saw him. That was the last time I spoke to my father. I'm so sorry. When I hugged him goodbye. And I don't know, it just felt like he knew that was it. And that was the last time we were all together.

You think you know me, you don't know me well at all. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well.

I got into the airport and I think we had like a couple hours before our flights and Jake held me and I cried just like how my siblings were like in pain. Like I just sobbed and like to the point where like people around us are like, what is happening? And like, I just, I couldn't, couldn't get over it. It was so painful. And we got back from that holiday and I remember talking to my mother-in-law about it and her just being like, that's not okay. You have to say something. I was like, I know what I don't know what to do. Like,

It felt like it had been years of me building up this relationship. He came to graduation and then he messed up and I called him out and it was good. And then we had this like holiday and I found out it was all a lie. And then I see him like broken, brokenhearted that I'm leaving. And I didn't know what to do. So I didn't talk to him at all. And he started messaging me a couple months later being like, Hey, I miss you. I've been thinking about you. Like,

It's really hard not having you guys here. And I didn't even respond because I was like, I feel like if I talk to you like nothing is wrong, I am betraying my values. I am betraying the people that I love. And so I just spent months agonizing. And I got to the point where I was like, I don't know what else to do. I don't know how else to reach you. And I was still at that point. I should have just called the police. I don't know why I didn't call the police, but...

At that moment, I felt like I still could reach him. I felt like I still had, it was my duty to try to like help him before hurting him. And the only thing I could think to do was to be very blunt with him and basically hold my relationship over his head and say, like, you are dead to me until you figure this out, until you prove that like you will protect our family.

Like, we're done. And so I wrote him this massive letter, brokenhearted letter of just being like, you lied to me. You've done this. Like, I have lost all respect for you as a father. I love you. I love you so much. But you are so damaged and you are so messed up and you won't listen to me. And I've tried and you it's clear to me now that like none of what you've done to us matters enough for you to change.

And I'm sorry, but you've gotten away with this because we've been your family and because we had to talk to you and because you could control us. But if we were anyone else in the world, this relationship would not work. You could not treat anyone else like this and expect them to still be in a relationship with you. That's not how life works.

There are actual consequences for your actions. And I said, like, these are the consequences for your actions. I cannot be in a have any type of relationship or contact with you while you were like this. It's not healthy for me and I can't do this anymore. You basically like I'm blocking you and everything like I'm deleting your number like you're dead to me. If you want to write me a letter, you can, but like you don't exist anymore. How did that feel? So sad. Yeah.

I mean, I knew I had to do it and I sent it and I just crumpled over the computer and bawled. Like I felt like he died. And in a way, like the father that I thought was there did die because that father wasn't real. And I was finally accepting the reality of like,

what he was and that there wasn't any like thing left to like hold on to. And I, I called my mother-in-law after it happened and just like balled on the phone to her. And she, she was lovely and helped me through it. And I just, it was in that moment of like, just feeling like I'd lost a parent and needing some sort of parental love in that moment. Thankfully I have a wonderful mother-in-law who was able to be there for me. That's amazing. Yeah. So it was,

I think I went into like instant like grieving and I didn't know what to do in regards to my father. And I think I put off doing anything because I was so, I was in so much pain. And so I think there was like two or three months after I came back that like, I didn't, I didn't text him. I didn't like call him. And,

Before everything had happened that my mother had told me about, before I knew everything my mother had told me about, it would have been like, if I didn't know that, I would have been like texting him every day and like we would have been like reconnected and everything would have been great. And so I know that he was like, what's going on? Why aren't you talking to me? And that freaked me out as well. And I felt awful because I didn't want him to feel bad. You know, I'm still trying to protect him. I'm still feeling bad for his feelings.

But inside, I'm freaking out because I know I have to do something. And I know either way, like it's going to mess some dynamic up in my family. You know, it's going to something's going to go bad. And I remember telling my mother-in-law when we got back and, you know, she encouraged me. She's like, you have to you have to say something. So I did.

I wrote that big letter and it took me a couple months to really figure it out, what I wanted to say or what needed to be said. And I think at that time, I still felt like everything they had told me was like after the fact, you know, and so vague in a way that like I couldn't have just called the police and said, hey, this is happening because they didn't really tell me what was happening. I didn't have any facts. I didn't have any times. I didn't have any dates. And I don't think I was even mentally prepared at that moment to have called the police or to have tried to like get that story.

side of things involved, you know, looking back, I wish I would have just done that right away. But I don't think I was mentally able to process that. It's also like so much responsibility to put on you as even though you're an adult child of your parent, it's so much because like you said, you still want to

protect them even though they haven't prioritized protecting you. It's just embedded in you when you love somebody, you don't want to hurt them even though

you've given this person so many chances, I would imagine. Yeah. And I think I still thought there was a chance that they could fix it. I still thought that they're... I hadn't tried everything yet. I had to try everything I could before I did that. And so what I did was I cut my father off. And this was horrifically shocking to my family.

I remember my mother, I guess, had read it on his Facebook because she didn't have her own Facebook, but she would use my father's a lot and she had seen it and she had basically made him promise not to read it until they got home. And I remember like texting her and saying like, hey, I don't know what he's going to do. And I texted Hannah.

and being like, you may need to get out of the house because I'm telling him that I know what he did to you and he told you not to tell anyone. I don't know if he's going to hurt you. And she says, well, you know, I had a vision and, you know, God's told me it's going to be fine. And she wasn't...

She didn't yell at me for doing it, but it wasn't exactly like I could tell she was like, okay, why are you doing this? My sister even like, you're going to break his heart. And I said, I know. And I was crying and I said, he's been breaking my heart for like the past 13 years. And I don't know how to make him listen anymore. I don't know what else to do because he apparently either doesn't care or he doesn't believe me. It came from a space of, I don't know how else to make you listen anymore.

maybe you'll listen to this, you know, maybe this will be a language that you understand. Take me seriously. Like this is important. Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think there's always a part of me that was like, well, maybe I know my father's messed up emotionally and maybe no one's ever called him out and his bullshit. And maybe if his daughter does and he realizes that, you know, it's his lifestyle or his relationship with me,

Maybe I'll be enough to make him change, you know? Stupid me for thinking that I mattered that much, but that was the hope. Yeah. This season, Instacart has your back-to-school. As in, they've got your back-to-school lunch favorites, like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back-to-school supplies, like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow.

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Did he write you back?

So what I had, I basically blocked him and everything. And I said, if you want to get ahold of me, like you'll have to write me a letter because you're not going to have any other contact with me. Gotcha. And yeah, apparently my sisters said that they thought he was going to like be really angry. But when it happened, he basically just like locked himself in the room for the afternoon and,

And like started listening to like my favorite music from when I like before I had left. And that broke me as well, because I know he did. However messed up he was, I know he did have a true emotional reaction to it. And nothing happened. And I think I for the first couple months was just like in shock that I had even done that. And it was super like freaked out. And my mom was like, yeah, no, it's fine. And, you know, it's really good and said that, yeah.

You know, your dad's like, I think he's like really listening. And that was around also around the time where she said that she was having these visions that the Black spirit, you know, had left my father and that he was now truly able to listen. And a couple of months went past when we got to Christmas and this would be my first Christmas without my father in my life. And that meant that I couldn't call my family on Christmas.

because they all, you know, he controlled the household and I couldn't have a family Christmas call. Like I think I had, I spoke to some people, but it was them like on a phone, hiding in a bedroom, talking to me. And that was really rough and really hard. And then I got a message from my mom that said like, hey, dad's left you a Prezi. I was like, what?

And I looked in my bank account and he put like 100 pounds in my bank account for Christmas. And he used to do that sometimes when they had money because it cost a lot to ship stuff. And I was so stunned and freaked out by it. I mean, one, because this is the first interaction he's had in probably the three months that I've cut him out of my life.

And two, it's money. And after like, I think I got to a stage where I was big enough to where I could defend myself if he did physically attack me. Money was how he controlled me. And I felt instantly in need of like, oh, I have to say thank you. Or, oh, I have to like write a letter. And I like, it felt like he was forcing me to interact with him. And I was so frustrated.

I spoke to my mom and I was like, why? I don't understand. Like, why would he do this? And she said, well, you know, he was really, you know, he didn't really want to. And he was, you know, frustrated. And I, you know, I sat him down and I said, you're she's still your daughter. And, you know, she doesn't just stop being your daughter because she's acting in a way that you don't like. And so, you know, he gave you the money. And I was so angry. I was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

You coerced him into giving me money? Mom, I don't want anything from him. I don't want to owe him. I don't want any interaction with him. And like, oh, I'm supposed to be grateful because you convinced him that even though I'm being a shitty kid that he should still somehow take care of me. I was so angry on both levels.

It's amazing how the reason for the boundary gets completely lost. And people sometimes act like holding a boundary is holding a grudge. I don't know where I ever heard that the first time. But when I read it the first time, I was like, that is so accurate. Like, yeah, it's not fair to make the person who's been harmed feel bad about holding their boundaries. They deserve them.

Well, and I felt, I mean, my mom had always, my own mom has always been a manipulator and a controller. And she, I think, felt bad that my dad wasn't doing this. And so she basically like made him do it. And so, of course, on one hand, it's like, well, great. You know, he's giving me something, again, another thing that he didn't necessarily want to. But then on the other hand, like,

stay the hell out of my life woman and I think it was around that same time like we were having we had several different conversations and I talked to my mom a lot around that time I don't know if this was intentional on her part but it felt like we got closer after this happened and we spoke more and

And I don't know if that was like her just trying to like keep the tabs on me because she felt like I was going off the deep end. I honestly don't at this point. I don't know. I wouldn't put it past her. At this point, was she ever saying like, please don't ever tell anyone or anything like that? Nope. I think she knew better than to say anything like that to me. And I think I was very...

looking back, very kind and very diplomatic. And, you know, I think she saw as me just trying to like make him understand. And she even said, she said, you know, when this first happened, I didn't understand why you were acting like this, but God showed me that, you know, you did this for me and you did this for us to protect me. And you did this out of respect for me. And it was the first time she had like openly validated me for what I did. On the other hand, I was like, wait, God had to tell you that what I did was okay. Like, I,

I called him out for beating you and you weren't okay with that. But then apparently God somehow said that it was okay that you did it out of respect for me and now it's okay. I just felt so frustrated because I think she had kind of acted like she kind of understood or kind of was on board with it.

Like we were on the same page, you know, like she couldn't actually do anything about it. But I had, I had stepped in. I was trying to protect her and she was only now just kind of realizing it. And then I was like, well, what the hell did you think was going on the whole time? Why were you acting like everything was cool then if you clearly had issues with what I did? Which, you know, again, makes me think that she did have a lot of issues and was trying to keep tabs on me. Yeah.

So that went on for a long time. And I kept talking to my therapist about it and being like, I don't know. And for a while, I felt this intense pressure to like, well, I have to maybe at least send him a card saying thank you for the money. And I just really didn't want to do it. And I was fighting it. And it was this whole thing of like, well, I just need to put it off. I'm just not ready to do that yet. I know I have to, but I'm not ready. And my therapist was like, why? Why do you have to? And I was like,

I don't know. She was like, you don't have to do anything. I was like, you are right. So then I was like, okay, screw it. No, I didn't ask for this. I was very clear about my intentions and the boundaries I was setting. And if he decided to do something to interact, that's on him. It's not my job to go up and say, thank you for giving me this money, even though you clearly have disrespected everything. The one thing I asked you for, you know, part of what's

happened here was that it really felt like my mom was taking their situation very seriously and everyone else was. And it felt like the girls for the first time, you know, I had verbally said I wasn't okay with what was going on and I was physically taking steps to like hold our father accountable. And I think the other girls saw that and were like, yeah, yeah.

And so the way my mother reported it to me was that everyone was doing so much better. And, you know, your father really, you know, starting to connect with your brother and, you know, he's really taking it seriously. He's been doing a lot of like thinking and soul searching. And there'll be times where, I don't know, stuff just seemed...

off or just like a little too good. Or I just felt like I wasn't getting like the picture, like something just fell off. And I would hear like little snippets of stuff. And for the most part, it was fine until I had a conversation with my brother. And he said something about getting into a fight with my father.

And I said, that's not okay. He's like, yeah, I know what, you know, I was doing this. And I said, Daniel, that is not okay. What he did to you. And I said, like, he didn't just do it to you. He did it to me too. And like our siblings. And I began telling my brother of stuff that had happened to us. And I don't think anyone had ever told him that. And he lost his mind. Like he was furious and apparently like stormed down and confronted my dad about this.

How old was he at this time? This was two years ago. So he would have been 12. Apparently after that, I couldn't get him on the phone for a while. And I was informed by my mother that I had broken my father's trust and that Daniel had flipped out and stormed. And like my, I had hurt, I had broken my father's heart by like,

telling Daniel stories of stuff that happened a long time ago and stuff that my father had already apologized for. And that, you know, like that whole thing of like, it's gone and forgotten and we don't talk about it anymore. And so, yeah, after that, my mother basically said like, you can't talk to your brother anymore unless your father's in the room listening to what you guys are saying. Wow. Yeah.

And she was like, you know, you just, I think you just need to talk to your father about it. Or, you know, you, you can talk to Daniel by yourself, but then, you know, you just need to call your dad and explain what you said. And like, you know, that's okay. But dad just needs to know what's going on. And like went backwards and forwards. And I said, no, like, I'm not talking to him. Like, he's like, you've broken your father's trust. I didn't know we had any trust. I didn't know. I, you know, I owed him this thing. And,

Apparently, my brother was told that I was no longer allowed to talk to him or I wasn't allowed to talk to him. And I asked my siblings to let him know what had happened. And I wasn't ignoring him, but mom literally wasn't letting him talk to me. And the way it was presented to him, whether they meant to or not, it was presented as Rachel had a choice to keep talking to you and talk to dad. She chose not to. So she's chosen not to speak to you anymore.

Gross. Which is horrifically different. And I don't think this person meant it to come across that way, but that's how it came out. And I was told that Daniel is brokenhearted, freaking out, that he went through the house and destroyed any pictures he could find of me.

And at the time, I wasn't told exactly what had been said. I was just told that, you know, the person I had asked to let him know why I wasn't able to speak with him anymore said that, you know, he was just really brokenhearted. And in my brain, I'm like, well, you know, maybe he just, it's really hard for him to see my face knowing he can't talk to me. Like, I get it. I wasn't like freaked out by it. And then I found out later, no, he'd literally been told that I had chosen not to speak to him anymore. And he felt like I had abandoned him. Yeah. And throughout this time,

My mother continually is pressuring me to talk to my father. Rachel, his heart is open now. That black thing is gone. The black spirit's gone. You need to talk with him. You need to give him a chance. You can't hold him accountable for these things and not even talk to him. And got to the point where she made a comment about, it's not fair on Daniel. He's only 12. How can you do this to him?

And I lost, that was the real turning point with my mother where I no longer saw her as an ally in the situation or even like a, I no longer saw her as a neutral party who was just there. I was like, oh, you are actively working against me. You are actively working against your kids. You are not safe anymore. Like you, I can't trust you. I can't trust you. I can't trust anything that like I say to you won't go straight to dad.

Doing the work of the abuser. Yes. And she was literally like, your brother, you know, it's not fair. I'm Daniel. Your brother's so sad, blah, blah, blah. And I said, that's not me doing that. Like you're keeping up. And she's like, well, no, you're the one who's like made the choice. And you know, you need to talk with your father. And I was like, you are forcing me to like break my boundaries and talk to the person that I am terrified. I can't even hear his voice. There'll be times where like,

He knew people were talking to me and he would come into the room and talk loudly and I could hear his voice and I would like panic like I would shut down. Isn't it amazing how when you get distance.

Oh my God. Those things just become so clear as day like that. I don't understand why it took me so long to realize how shitty my mother was. And I think it's because I was so used to her being so shitty her entire life and just being so complicit. And this was around the time where I felt like I truly saw and focused. I was like, oh, you're not even trying to protect dad.

you have this idea in your mind that God has called you and your husband together and you two have to be together in order for this thing to happen. You are trying to protect this promise of a life that you want. You don't, this isn't even about protecting dad or protecting us. This is about you and what you need your life to be. And it was like, well, this is between, you know, him and he is making changes against the age old thing of like, my dad did that whole thing of like trying to act better and he would act better for a little bit, but nothing would actually change. Um,

But because my mother had now decided that this black evil spirit had gone,

in her brain, well, it's, you know, it's different this time. You just don't understand. You're just not here. You know, I know you don't believe in this, Rachel, but I'm telling you it's true. Do you think she really believed it or do you think it was another manipulation? I think she believed it because that was how she made sense of her story in her brain of, I believe that me and my husband are supposed to be together so that we can do this thing. Like God has called us to like this thing

have this like great impact on the world. And so there has to be a reason why my husband is acting like this and it's a demon. Well, now that that demon is gone. So we can go back to like how we were like, you know, she was gaslighting herself into like, you know, she created a world in which everything around her made sense like that. And everything to her was the devil or demons. Like I remember she made this comment once about my brother acting like

up around a certain guy that would come to their church. And it was because there was a spirit around him. And, you know, I knew it was a spirit because anytime he's around, Daniel acts this way. And I was like, I don't, you know, I think he's maybe just this. And I was giving her all these explanations and I felt like she was listening to me and I was trying to get her to understand, like, you know, helping Daniel to process things emotionally and building his emotional intelligence. And like, we may, I felt like we made some great headway there.

And she was really listening to me. And I think she was and wanted to in some ways. But then that age-old thing of when push came to shove, she needed to believe in her fantasy. If her world didn't make sense anymore, her sanity would be gone. Make it make sense. It had to. Yeah. The truth is too horrific otherwise. I don't think she can...

I don't think she is able to live with the thought of the reality of her facilitating and enabling the abuse of us. I don't think she can physically live with that idea. And so I think she has created this world in her brain where that's not the case.

So after you had that conversation with her where you were finally like, no, what was her response? Well, that was multiple conversations where it went backwards and forwards until finally when she blamed me for my brother, my brother's behavior and his emotional pain that he was going through when she put that on me, I was done.

I was like, I'm done with you. I said, you know, you are physically hurting me. You are trying to hurt me. You are going out of your way to not take responsibility. And like, basically like, no, I'm sorry. We're done. We are done.

I don't think I blocked her at first. I think I had just been like, nope. And then she kept texting me and kept sending me these things. And it got to the point where I was like, oh, if I don't physically remove her capability, she will keep sending me nasty messages that make me feel like shit. Like that's the only way to protect myself is to literally take away her ability to text me.

And so that's what I did. And so I, you know, I think after that, they can, I considered them as hostiles and they considered me as hostiles and everything got real shut down. And this whole time, like, I think I've been told, you know, things are getting so much better and there's so much hope in this and,

I think maybe a year, year and a half. Okay. So I forgot to mention this part. So the first Christmas I was given money and I really freaked out. The second Christmas we were moving. It was super stressful. I was busy and we were at a new, we're staying at a friend's house. And one day we were running out the door and I think it was,

before Christmas. Yeah, it was before Christmas. And we were running out the door and my husband was like, oh, this came in the mail for you. And I was like, oh, this is weird. And it had like a British stamp on it. So I thought, oh, maybe it's my, for my grandma or whatever. And so I rip it open and I'm halfway through reading it before I realize it's a letter from my father. And this is like a year and a half, a year and three months later.

since I wrote him that letter and he's finally written me something back. And I am like, and this is after you've broken off your relationship with your mom. This is before. Okay. So this is before. Um, so I think everything that was going on went on for almost two to two years before I fully shut off from my mother as well. Cause it wasn't until late last year that I fully shut off from her. So, um,

He wrote me a letter and he said, you know, I got your letter and it was very hard for me to read. And, you know, I want you to know that like things are great with me and your mom. And we've gone to, you know, I'll have you know, we went to that couples counseling like three times and we tried really hard. And I know we can't turn back time, but like, I really want to have a relationship with you and please forgive me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my husband was like, oh my God. Wow. Cause I had said, you know, I doubt he'll even write me a letter.

Like, I highly doubt he would even, like, stoop to write me a letter. Like, at this point, I had given up. But he had finally written me a letter. And it was, like, meant to be this good thing. And even in my, like, the minute I, like, saw it, I just felt, like, dead inside. Like, I hadn't even read it yet. And I just felt like, oh, no. Like, I don't want to be confronted with this. I actually don't want to deal with this person anymore.

And so I kind of just really hastily read it and I think was so freaked out. And I think my husband was like, this is so great. And then saw my reaction was like, oh no, like, oh, okay, we'll talk about this later. And so I like put it down. We ran out, went out for the day and I came back and I read it again. And when I first read it, it felt weird to me and I felt irritated by it. And I went back and read it and I

His like even the first words were like, I got your letter and I read all the things you said. And like, it was really hard for me to read that.

And I was like, oh, even like the first thing you have to say is that it was really hard for me to have to deal with that. You know, me actually calling you out and telling you how much you hurt me was really hard for you. And I had talked about, you know, everything he had done with done to me. And like I, you know, had talked about my mom because that was a specific example I had. And, you know, he didn't address that. He was like, me and your mom are doing really great right now. I'll have you know. And I was like, I don't care.

hear how you and mom are, frankly, like how you and mom are right now is a very little consequence to me in this moment. This isn't about you and mom. This is about like me and you. The more I read it, the more it seemed like he was making excuses and pushing off. And I was like, even in your attempts to like reconnect with me, you are still so narcissistic and so dangerous. Like even if you aren't physically dangerous to me, you are dangerous to my mental health.

And it's still manipulation in the letter to be like, it was so hard for me to read. Are we fucking talking about you right now? Like as a parent? Are you kidding me? Know your role. Who's the kid here? Who's the, like, who is supposed to take care of who here? Exactly. That doesn't sound like a parent to me. Exactly. My mother was so, I mean, I think she even was like, well, did you get the letter? Yeah.

you know, like she knew it had been sent and she was like eagerly waiting for me to get it. And, you know, are you going to respond? And, you know, I think for a while it was like, oh, I have to respond. You know, I told him to write me a letter and he's done what I've asked him to. And, you know, now Ball's back in my court. And I felt so pressured by this and so stressed and so freaked out for the longest time. And again, it took way longer than it should have. But eventually I was like, well, I don't

don't actually owe him anything. I don't owe him a response. I said he could write me a letter if he wanted to talk to me. I never said I would reply. In fact, I specifically said, you can write me if you want, but I don't know if I will reply. And he still doesn't sound like he understands anything. And I was so, I felt like his letter trying to make things right between us brought up so much more anger and hurt than

And I definitely was in a spot where I was like, I don't have the strength to go through this with you. Like, I don't have the mental bandwidth to try and go through this with you. So I just did not reply. So I had that conversation with my brother.

And that's what my mother would use against me. Well, your father wrote you a response and you didn't respond. And you need to have it hashed out with him and really go through things before you can talk to your brother. You owe him that. That's your responsibility. But they made it seem very much like...

you need to gain back your father's trust. And you like, like, like the Bible says that you, you know, if you have an issue with someone, you need to talk to them. And so you shouldn't be talking to your brother about it. You should be talking directly to him about it. And I'm like, well, I haven't, you didn't like it very much. And that was when it kept going backwards and forwards. And it was like, okay, something is really wrong here. And so I, I,

I mean, I was very blown with her. I said, I don't think, I said, I think you were very clearly hurting my brother and I don't think you're holding my father accountable for this. And I am telling you now, like, you do not want to make an enemy out of me. Like you were trying to bully me into something and it's not going to work and you better stop because if you don't, you're, you're declaring war and I'm not going to lose. Like you are not going to win this fight. Like, do you understand what you are doing right now? And the response was just so like,

You can't talk to us like that. And, you know, it's not your call. And just very much just like, okay, there's nothing here. And I said, we're done.

I said, you have proven to me that not only is dad not a safe person to have a relationship, you are not a safe person to have a relationship. You have not respected my wishes. You, in fact, keep pressuring me and trying to put me in a situation that is dangerous for me. And you don't care. I was like, I will not allow people who will end up damaging me in my life anymore. And you have become one of those people. Yes. How did you feel? Yeah.

Well, furious in the moment, but that's how I like my power, you know, especially dealing with people who do hold so much power over me. Fury and rage and anger is like what allows me to like say that stuff in the moment, you know, and there's definitely emotional like going back. Like I was so broken over the fact that I had to say that to her and that she tried to make me do that. But in the moment, like the rage is what, you know, made me brave. Yeah.

You told her that and then she's, instead of respecting that and giving you space, continued texting insults basically at you? Well...

Not blatant insults, but very much manipulation control and trying to explain, you know, like why my dad deserved a second chance and how I was in the wrong and just very like emotionally taxing and just would not let up. And this is like the mother or the woman that, you know, we called the Holy Spirit, the woman that would badger my father and chase him from room to room until he literally broke the

that was the woman that was I was facing right now. And I was like, Oh, my goodness. Okay. And so I blocked her. I said, like, we're done. Like, you won't leave me alone. Like, I'm blocking you like until this is like fixed. Like, no, things got, of course, real quiet after that. But I think the more noise I made, the more my siblings began to quietly make noise as well.

And the more I began to kind of like reconnect more with them, my sister, Rebecca, started to move out and had to live with more freedom. And Sarah even definitely was getting older and had her own thoughts and own feelings. And, um,

And I remember one time talking with Sarah and she was just furious and said that, like, I'm so stressed. I'm so anxious. And like, they don't believe that. I try to tell them, like, you know, I have anxiety and they tell me that I'm making it up. And basically my mother told her that she was,

Was developing anxiety because she had been listening to me talking about my depression and how that wasn't real, but because they listened to me that they had let the devil in and now the devil was attacking her with a spirit of anxiety and that, you know, it was because she listened to me and like the crap I was telling her.

And I was like, oh, okay. This entire time that before I cut my mother off, I was very open about my mental health and therapy and how it was going. And she was so supportive, so supportive. And I thought, man, this is amazing. Like I'm explaining what we're doing in therapy and she's talking about how cool it is.

Then I realized behind my back, she's openly telling my siblings that I have let the devil into my life. And that's why I'm dealing with all of these mental health issues, not because of my upbringing or not because of anything else. And then when my sister tries to tell her that she too is dealing with anxiety and can't handle stuff, she's telling her that it's her own fault for listening to me and that I'm, you know, letting the devil in.

And that's wow. I lost it. And I think I actually ended up texting Hannah and being like, dude, like this is insane. I don't think they're safe. I know something's going to go down. I said, if it does, I'm going to try to get custody of Daniel. And her response was like, whoa, my goodness, that's a bit harsh. Don't you think? And I was like,

Hannah, do you, can you honestly like look at me and say that you believe that they will do what's best for Daniel and put him above themselves? And she said, no. I said, well, Hannah. And she was like, I know, I know. I just, I don't know what to do. And how old were your other sisters at this point? Like, because Hannah got married, so she's clearly an adult. Yeah. And Rebecca was moving out. So I'm assuming she was over 18 at this point. Yes. And Sarah was, I think seven.

17, turning 17. Okay. Where Daniel's like 13 at this point. Yeah. And they were very much, my parents, you know, they were all doing this homeschool stuff. And not only is it just the curriculum is awful, but it is so janky that it's not really recognized by the colleges in America, sorry, in Scotland. So

Even if my sister wanted to go to normal school, like if they looked at her curriculum, they'd be like, well, we don't know where to put you. So we're gonna have to move you like three or four years back. And she was like, well, I can't do that. And so she felt like she was forced to like stay at home because she couldn't, she couldn't leave and work full time because she didn't have an education, but she couldn't go to an actual school and get one. So she was forced to stay with my parents.

And it just felt like things were ramping up and ramping up. She told me that, you know, she's like, I'm so stressed out. And I feel like at any moment, I'm going to have to like quit everything to take care of Daniel. And that was a weird moment for me because Sarah is our youngest sibling, you know, and I have felt like my entire life that I had to be in a safe space. Like I had to quickly get my life in order because I didn't know when I was going to have to like leave everything to look after my siblings. You know, like I had to be stable.

I didn't realize that every single one of my sisters felt the exact same way to the point where like my 18 year old sister was stressing out about getting her life in order so that she could be a parent to my brother if she needed to be. And I think that was truly where I was like, oh, it's not just me. And it wasn't just because things were crazy in Chinook.

Oh dear, I raised my brother? But Sarah went on to basically raise him the rest of the way. I mean, Hannah definitely as well, but Sarah and Rebecca were left with him alone. Like whenever, like my parents would go to Israel and leave them and they would look after him and Sarah would be, you know, the one cooking and taking care of everyone. Like she basically carried everyone.

So I had this conversation with Hannah. I felt like when she spoke to me that she thought I was crazy or that she thought I was not thinking clearly or that I clearly didn't know what was going on, but it just felt weird. After I said that to her, like, you know, they're not safe. Like, come on. And she said, well, I wasn't supposed to tell you this, but something happened and social services are involved. And I was like, what? What?

Hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm telling you that I think our parents are like dangerous and not good for my brother. And you're telling me that I am being harsh and overreacting. And then in the next breath, you say, well, they told me not to tell you because you'd freak out. But social services is involved.

With Daniel or with Sarah? Yes, with Daniel. Did he target Daniel physically with his abuse more than Sarah and Rebecca? Oh, yes. It was definitely spread out, but for the, you know, the girls were older and would get out of dad's way. Daniel was a child. The girls could go out with friends and stuff. Daniel didn't have anyone. Oh, my God. Okay, so Hannah tells you this. Yes. About social services. Yes. Did somebody report it?

So I'm trying to figure out what's going on. And I'm also trying to play it cool because I don't want to like scream at her. So it goes backwards and forwards. And like, I asked Sarah and Rebecca trying to figure out what's going on. But at the same time, I felt like I couldn't even like bother them for details because everyone was so stressed out and freaked out about it. Like,

And I get it. When you're in the middle of that, you're so traumatized by it that's happening. It's really hard to deal with it. And so in a way, I knew what they were going through. And so I didn't push them. And so I was kind of just like wheeling away for information for months. And it was like, well, things are good. And they're having one-on-ones with social workers. But Daniel won't tell them anything. And I'm like, well, why? I'm like, well, they're interviewing them all together.

It's like, why are they interviewing Daniel with our parents? Like what? I don't understand. Like what is happening? And like, yeah, I don't know. It's weird. Did they know who had reported them to social services? So. Okay. Am I, sorry. Am I, am I jumping ahead? Well, here's the thing. And like, no, these are all the questions I had. And nobody could give you the answers. Making sense. Just something is just off. I don't understand what, but something is off. Yeah.

And so I even asked Sarah, like, you know, why did they, you know, did they really tell you not to tell me anything? Well, they said they didn't want to worry you. And it was that whole thing of like, well, don't tell Rachel because, you know, she really loves Daniel. She's so stressed out and worried about Daniel. You'll just really freak her out. What I found out months later, my brother had tried to kill himself by jumping out of a second story window.

And the only reason he has a life today is because Sarah saw him, grabbed him by his jeans, and dragged him back inside. Next time. My mom was in the car in the passenger seat and started like freaking out, rocking backwards and forwards and hitting her head off the dashboard. You hurt my siblings. You're starting a war you won't win. I'm not threatening you or promising you.

All of this is happening, like, as my family has been, like, ripped apart and my parents are arrested. I am also in the emergency room for hours. Something Was Wrong is produced and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. Music on this episode from Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. If you'd like to help support the growth of Something Was Wrong, you can help by leaving a positive review, sharing the podcast with your family, friends, and followers, and support at

patreon.com slash something was wrong something was wrong now has a free virtual survivor support forum at something was wrong dot com you can remain as anonymous as you need thank you so much for listening

You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well. You think you know me, you don't know me well.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.