S20 E10: I Have So Much Proof It’s Insane Babygirl
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or Wondery. This podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. In response to the allegations against Jessica Pauly, she responded with no comment. Thank you so much for listening. You think you know me, you don't. You think you know me,

Here's Brie.

We had talked to the DA and he got a five minute rundown of what had been going on, which is, I guess, policy or how it goes for everybody. He had five minutes to digest everything Lauren and I could word vomit to him and try and come up with something. And I mean, I don't really blame him or anyone. Nobody could think like that in five minutes because it's something that nobody's ever thought about, really.

We all just wanted something more. They had offered, I believe it's called a plea, basically where they compromise. And her lawyer had said that she'll get social media taken away and be monitored and exposed.

it was just laughable. Who's going to monitor this? I mean, she's been doing this for years. I was like, I'm not even going to waste my breath with that, honestly. So we had talked to the DA and if we had dropped the charges like we did that day, we were able to try to charge for something more, which was the intent.

After everything that's come up and everyone that's come forward and the extent of how abusive this was, I just want her held accountable. And I don't want anyone else to go through this again.

It was Lauren, Lauren's friend, me, and then Lauren's mom was there. And we were there all day. Listening to other people go first? Yep. And then the DA was like, I'm going to be pretty frank with you. I don't think this judge is going to go for these charges. We can either drop them and try for something else, or we can go ahead and try and get these. And then he brought up the plea about, I don't even know what it's called, getting

getting banned from social media. I was like, how is that ever going to happen? She's never herself. And then we were all just pretty flustered at that point.

We were all in line to talk to, I want to say it was like the DA's assistant because she was just reviewing like what we were there for, what the charges were, seeing if both parties were there. We were in line and she's like, yeah, it looks like you guys are both present as is Jessica Pauly. And I looked at Lauren and she turned around and looked back at me and she goes, she's right behind you. And I was like, what? And she was there with her mother and wouldn't look at me. Her mom wouldn't stop looking at me.

Here's Dani.

That morning, my phone just started blowing up and I look at it and it was Bree. She's like, oh my God, she's here. She just walked in. So she literally drove multiple states, but I think it was probably smart on her part to show up to court for cyber stalking charges. They start texting us. She's here. She's here. She showed up. And I was like, oh my God. And we just didn't expect it at all. Her lawyer was there. They were like, you should come. You should get here. It was like 45 minutes away from us. It

It was so far away. It was already nine o'clock and the time was nine o'clock for the actual hearing. And I was like, by the time I get dressed and get there, like there's no way I could actually get there at a reasonable time. I'm like, I'm here to support you through the phone, girlfriend. I'm not going to be able to get ready in time to show up for this. And she was like, OK, here's Lauren.

We sat with the detective. I met with her twice, I think. And she did not act like we had anything, any type of evidence. She looked through the messages and even still, she didn't think that there was anything to charge her with besides the stalking.

The district attorney that we talked to, or the DA assistant, she took one look at our papers and she's like, what? I didn't know any of this was happening. Like, she had no clue what we were talking about or what we went through. And she had took two seconds to look over the paper before she decided what to do with our case. Here's Dani.

So they had their hearing and they said it was very brief. Basically what the judge said, from what I remember, they could grant her with a misdemeanor charge and a year without social media, or they could dismiss this misdemeanor and try to go for a felony charge.

Lauren and Brie texted us. What do you think we should do? I was like, I think a misdemeanor is stupid. I don't think that is doing anything. I think that's like a slap on the wrist. It's only a year in probation. Who's going to keep her from being off social media? That's such a joke. For all she's done, that's not enough. I think we have enough to get a felony on her. Like, I wouldn't take that.

And they both agreed, and that's what they did. They dismissed the misdemeanor. I believe they talked to the DA after, and they said, okay, just bring us anything you have. So I think they set up a day to meet with her or him. The DA told them if they don't have threats from Jess, threatening to get nudes from them, like give me nudes or I'll tell your family, or some sort of threat, they're

that there's nothing they could do about it, or extortion. So cyberstalking is considered a misdemeanor in North Carolina. Did they mention that about how it's a five-year federal charge? No. So, I mean, they felt like they washed their hands clean and walked away. When they got home, they texted us all that. We were pretty pissed. What are we going to do? We're starting at square one again. We have, like, nothing. Here's Monica.

I couldn't even get a restraining order, which was very scary to me because she left the North Carolina area and we knew she was probably coming back to the Iowa area where her family is at, which would put me at the closest distance wise to her education.

And not to say that I have ever felt like she would physically harm any of us in our friendship when we knew her. I never thought of her that way. But knowing now that she did all that she did, she's capable of a lot. And who knows what that could entail. So yeah, I mean, there's nothing I could do to protect myself in any way, shape or form. Nothing I could do unless something else happened.

How involved were you in the police process? Because I know you're in a different state. So that makes things complicated. I was not really involved with any of the police stuff. I did talk to a detective once and that was someone in North Carolina. But other than that, I have not been able to talk to anyone legally or do anything like that.

When the girls in North Carolina were having their court stuff happen to get restraining orders, we were trying to figure out where she was running off to because she up and left North Carolina, as she should have. Everyone there heard of what happened, and she obviously lost her two best friends there.

So she up and ran away. We were trying to figure out where she was going. And I felt very unsafe because I figured she was coming this way because her family's here and not knowing where she was obviously was just very unsettling. So we were trying to figure out where she was. Anyways, long story short, I still had her cousin on the Be Real app and that sometimes has people's location on it. And

And she had gone to visit Jess at her new place one day and took her B-Reel there and her location was on and I took a screenshot of it. Little did I know that you could see if someone takes a screenshot, but honestly, who cares? Okay, that's obviously the least of your concerns. So I took a screenshot of it and sent it to the group and all of a sudden we knew exactly where she was, which was in Omaha again. So

So probably a week or two after that, Jess texted me and she was like, hey, and all I can do is laugh because I just think this is the funniest text ever. Hey, my attorney is wondering why you took a screenshot of my cousin's be real. Was it to see the location or whatever? And she just liked my message when I said, please don't contact me. Thumbs up. Good old thumbs up. But of course, I was just kind of laughing because I'm like,

Yeah, I'm sure your attorney is advising you to reach out to your victims. Pretty sure that we have learned if what you did is illegal, I promise you me taking a screenshot is not illegal. Yeah, monitoring where your stalker is is not the same shit. Right. So that is the only time she had reached out to me.

Right after we found out she had deleted her Instagram. So I didn't have a chance to block her on Instagram. I had her blocked on Snapchat and everything else that she hadn't deleted yet. And then one morning I was watching some stories and her profile popped up and I was just like, oh my gosh, I was still following her when she like reopened her account.

She was posting like nothing affected her. She was living her best life. She got this cute new apartment and a new couch and a new puppy. Mind you, in the time I've known her, this is her third dog that she has got. And the other two, you know, she got puppies for her son. Her son really wanted a dog and then they would get rid of it.

So yeah, she was posting all this stuff like, well, my new job and my new puppy and my new couch and all her perfect little life, like nothing happened. Obviously that was kind of traumatic for all of us too, being like the worst thing in our life just happened. And she's just going on like, oh, it's just another day. But then once she messaged me about her cousin's be real thing, she blocked me on her Instagram, which is fine because I don't need her on there anyways. Yeah.

Funny how she went on and got a new apartment and life was perfect for her. Like nothing happened when she had just ruined several people's lives, taken years off all of our lives. But then we as a group have been investigating and reaching out to people and going through old messages and like, oh my gosh, I remember this girl. I went with Jess one time to Wisconsin to visit her. Let's reach out to her. Oh, what do you know? Same story. We

We have learned that there were a few different identities for guys that she used before us. If there was anyone mentioned as one of Brody's exes, there's a 99.9% chance that girl was also one of her victims. So we reached out to several of them, got a lot of stories. Some of them have just closed that door. They were shocked when we told them what was going on and disgusted and

I don't know all of the feelings that come with finding out this sort of information, but some of them were like, I can't put any more time or energy towards this. Shared our story and said, good luck. We're here, but we're just in the distance kind of thing.

They go all the way back to 2007. She used a Mitchell Kent name at that point in time with different pictures, different story. She also is using the Mitchell Kent name in like 2016, 2017.

One girl, one or two, I don't know the exact timeframe on one of them was Brody Lee Jacobs, which is the name that she used for us starting in 2018, 2019 ish. Two of them, I think, overlapped with the beginning of me. Then Brie and I overlapped and then Lauren and Brie overlapped.

She has a kid and a job at a hospital, and she was with at least one of us almost all the time. You know, if she wasn't with Bree, she was with me. If she wasn't with me, she was with Bree. She was with one of us all the time. But I think kind of what the straw that broke the camel's back for all of us talking to each other about our stories, we were like, we need to tell our story so this stops happening.

Obviously, we don't have full control. What happens, happens. But at least trying to put a stop or put awareness or whatever we can do. Here's Dani. They were like, let's just take this to social media. I'm done. Let's just expose her. So.

So I make a video and I don't post it yet. I send it to them. They tell me what to edit. I send it to them and we go through a couple edits and I post it. And I think the first one got some exposure, but not a lot. And then I found a trend I could hop on. It was the Roman Empire one, if anyone's a little TikToker here like me. But basically I said that like my Roman Empire is my best friend, has been a catfish for the past 15 years and it's been super traumatizing. That got a lot of attention.

There was questions, obviously. So I kept making TikToks off of the questions. And this was probably over a couple of weeks span that I would send them what I was about to post and they would agree to it. They would send me trends to like, I think you should do this. And I was like, if you guys want to post, I could share on my stuff. I didn't know how comfortable they were with putting their face to the story yet. I didn't really care. I'm like, my face is already out there. It really doesn't matter to me. This situation didn't really happen to me. I was a third party victim in this situation.

Put a finger down if you were catfished by a guy named Brody on a dating app and when you went out to go meet him, he suspiciously could not meet up with you because he was sick or something was going on. So instead, he told you to go meet up with his friend Jess and you guys could hang out. So you went and met up with Jess and you guys became really good friends and eventually roommates. And for three years...

Brody tortured you and manipulated you and emotionally abused you all the while you were friends with Jess. And then come to find out, Jess is Brody.

The court date was October 20th. I probably started posting like a week later. The beginning of November, I was going to bed. It was like 11 o'clock at night. Lauren called me and that was weird because I mean, we would call each other, but like at normal hours, not often. I ignored it because I had work. So I texted her. I was like, what's up? And she says, go on the are we dating the same guy page Wilmington. And I was like, okay.

So I go on there and there's this big post about a catfish. And I was like, oh, cool. And then the first comment is Lauren saying, can you please DM me? So I screenshot it and I send it back to her. I'm like, is this about Jess? And then Lauren started messaging the group chat all the details about it.

And basically, the context of the post was three pictures of a man who we now know the real identity of. He's an actual guy in Iowa who just knew in real life. His fake name was Camden or Cam. The post was made anonymously on this group. And for context, for people listening who don't have a Facebook or don't know what these groups are,

Basically, the groups are called Are We Dating the Same Guy? It's in almost every major city you're in or area you're in. There's a page for every single area. And basically, it's for women to post the guy they're dating and to see if they're out there cheating on them. It's a good way for girls to watch each other's back. And sometimes people post like catfishes or bad dating stories like, hey, this guy's a red flag or domestic violence situations.

I joined just to kind of keep my feelers out there to see if Jess was still out there somewhere. And we were right. She was. It was three pictures of a guy. He was a medical resident, just like Brody. And the story was the same. There was the three pictures of the man and a paragraph from an anonymous poster. They basically said, hey, we're a group of girls or we're a group of friends who are concerned about our friend getting catfished. These are the pictures. If you guys have any info, let us know.

And Lauren said, DM me, please. And then she got the phone number of Cam and cross-referenced Brody's phone number. And it was the same. They had the same phone number and all the details were pretty much the same. And the girls were saying we're concerned because our friend had just flown out to Omaha. And this was one of the places we figured Jess was going. And we were like, oh, my God.

how are you guys going to navigate this? And they like gave us all the details. The,

The whole time they were messaging us trying to navigate how to tell their friend this situation. Because the way they were wording it was that their friend was a very closed off person. She wouldn't normally do something like this. It's very like out of character. And she wouldn't just go and meet somebody on the internet that she didn't know. That's not something she would do. They didn't know how to bring this information to their friend. So I think a few days later, I messaged one of the girls and I said...

hey, how's it going? Have you ever told Savannah, which is the girl who was being catfished, about the whole situation? And she was like, well, we're getting drunk and we're getting ready to go talk to her. And I was like, okay, let me know how that goes.

She tells her about how Jess is actually Cam. And then she gets back to me and tells me that she deleted Jess's number and Camden's number. Apparently, Jess was reaching out to her trying to plan a trip to Wilmington with her this week to come hang out. And I was like, oh, my God, that's insane.

They sent us a voice memo. I think it was days later with all the details and it was just so insane. What happened was she met Camden when Lauren found out Brody was Jess. Jess had already created Camden. They had been talking for a couple months and she had planned to fly out to Omaha to go see him. So she said...

When she got into town and into the airport, the plan was for Camden to come pick her up. But he said, hey, I'm so sorry. I have some errands to run or something. If I butcher some of the minor details, I apologize. But he essentially said, I can't make it to the airport, but my best friend Jess would be okay with picking you up. You guys would have a lot in common. You'd like her. The same old story. And she was super reluctant to say yes to this because it's really sketchy, like having just a stranger pick you up. But...

She did. He said, it'll only be for like an hour. Just go back to her house. I'll come pick you up. So the girl, Savannah, said that she got back to Jess's house. She had a dog. She had her kid.

She started looking around her apartment and realizing that the dog was the same dog that Camden had. And then the furniture was the furniture that Camden was taking pictures of weeks before saying like, oh, should I buy this couch for my apartment?

So she's getting this eerie feeling and she asks her like, hey, is that Camden's dog? And she said, oh yeah, I'm just watching him for him. And then the furniture, she's like, what's up with the furniture? And she was like, oh, Camden said he didn't want it anymore. So he gave it to me. I'm like, what? Oh my God. Yeah. What the fuck?

It sounds like a scary movie. She said she was texting him like, what's up? Are you going to come pick me up? What's happening? And he just kept making up excuses. And then finally, it's like two in the morning. And she said she's at this literal stranger's house. And he's like, listen, I'm so sorry. I have to check myself into a mental institution. Me and my mom had a really hard talk.

She's like, what the heck? And at that point, it's two in the morning. She's in a strange city. And to her knowledge, Jess is a normal person with a child in an apartment that looks normal. And Jess is being really friendly. Jess knows all this information about this girl over the past month that she doesn't know she knows about her. So she could be your best friend if she wants to. She could be like, oh,

I love Step Brothers. And that could be the girl's favorite movie because she told Camden months before, you know, like she could connect with her in ways that she doesn't even know that she could connect with her. So she could build that level of trust. She's very good at that.

So she chose to sleep there. And then over the next couple of days, she said she stayed at Jess's house. And the entire time, Jess just kept trying to convince her to stay by saying things like, oh, we could go visit him at work, all this stuff. It was very bizarre. And then she flew home. And that's when the girls made the post. And that's when they told her. And then, yeah, Savannah had found out from her friends that Jess was Camden. Camden was Jess.

I cannot fucking believe that in this short amount of time, she was able to convince this new victim, Savannah, to fly there. Oh, and October 21st, she made this giant post on Facebook saying...

how she found God and like she's changing and she had lost weight and she's going to therapy and she moved back home because the beach will always be there but home is where the heart is. Some lovey post and I was just like you are out of your mind bitch. Literally you were in court the day before. What are you talking about? So she posted this big I changed post and

And there was probably a part of me and the girls that maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe you did change, maybe. And then a week later, Savannah pops up. Like, you have a girl in Omaha.

It was really telling to hearing from Savannah's friends how she was a very reserved and not trusting person. I feel like that tells a lot to the people who are like, oh, who would trust somebody like this? The victim blaming people that assume that you're this naive person to fall for this. But clearly it's normal, like 25 to 30 year old women that want to find love and trust in it.

Online dating is such a big part of our society now. And somebody was like, oh, well, you shouldn't be sending nudes anyway. I'm like, literally, the statistic is 80% of people have sent a nude in their life. 80%. You can't sit here and blame. That's just a part of our society now. Also, what does that do? What do you think that's achieving to shame somebody who already feels that you don't have to add to it?

What was it like emotionally when you guys discover in the group chat, aside from the shock, the realization that she's continued? Were you surprised in any capacity or did you all feel like it's a matter of time?

I kind of knew it was probably happening, but I think it was just like the audacity. I brought it to light so much more that there was no limits to her. She did not care. She was going to put on this front, this fake story that she changed. She's this Jesus girl. She's in therapy. She will put a front on to no end. She will lie through her teeth till she cannot anymore. Just like with Brie, she was literally lying to her, texting her as Brody as I was on the phone with her.

It's no limits. She has none. It's crazy. She's had nearly two decades to reflect and has seen both directly and indirectly the impact of her behavior, and she doesn't fucking care. Another thing with the Savannah situation, she said that while she was at Jess's house, the brief period she was there, she said Jess had a date, quote unquote, which I doubt it.

Savannah was left with Jess's kid at her house for like a couple hours and like babies at him. A stranger. Literally, she left him with a stranger. Granted, she has cameras in her house and whatever. But what I really think probably happened is she drove around the block a few times and watched her on her cameras because she's crazy. That's probably what happened. There's no way she went on a date with this girl there. That's weird. I mean, the whole thing's weird. But like you are not going on a date, Jess. Be real.

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Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once a facade falls away.

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When court finally ended and we knew we were probably going to get nowhere with that, we were just kind of like, fuck it. The only other way we could do it is social media. That's the only other way to hold her accountable. I feel like a lot of people, at least her family members, took that as a sense of bullying. But when I did make videos, I never gave her full name. I only ever said her first name, Jess. I never gave enough information to really track her down.

I didn't even say we worked together. I didn't even say what job she did. I didn't say any of that. Nothing to identify her. There was maybe like 10 TikToks, but most of them were just like answering questions because people had so many questions when it came to the situation. And TikTok only lets you post 10 minutes. And this literally deserves a whole podcast, obviously. And there were so many details. The TikToks had waves. People would find them and then send them to their friends. Here's Shayna.

I am going to pull up the text messages from my sister because I was literally shaking. My husband was upstairs in his man cave playing video games and I was downstairs with our daughter.

She sends me a link to Danny's TikTok. It was the put a finger catfish down one. And she was like, Shana, you have to watch this. And I was like, okay, she's like, watch it and call me back. And I was like, okay. And so I was watching it downstairs. I paused it because I was just like, immediately this flood of deja vu maybe came over me and

And I was shaking watching it. And I am running around the upstairs with my husband being like, can you believe this? I can't believe this. And I call my sister right after I'm done. And she's like, Jess's sister sent me the link. She's shocked. And she just thinks that this woman is trying to destroy Jess's life. And I backed you up and was like,

well, Megan, she's done this in the past. You know that she's done this to Shana. And she confirmed she knew that she had done it to me. I was just shocked. And then I think she had posted other videos at that point. I watched the first one. And then I called her and I'm just like, what the fuck? She is still doing this. We were freaking out. I

I cannot believe that she is still doing this. And to this extent, it was so much worse than what I had to go through for just a couple of months. My sister told me there are more videos and I was like, well, then I'm hanging up. And I just went down a rabbit hole and watched all of them and called her back.

And I was just like, the similarities are so crazy. Her thought process and her games and manipulation is all still the same. It's just all heightened to this expert level. It's wild. I was shaking. I couldn't believe it. And then I called my mother. She knew everything that I had went through. And I was just like, Mom, she is still doing this to other people. She knows.

She knew that there was something up back in high school, but she was just as shocked as I was, especially like her knowing her father so intimately. It's just been so mind blowing for our whole family. And of course, she was like, send me the links. She watched them all too and was just shocked. Did you feel like within a few days, your whole town knew?

Absolutely. It went around like wildfire. I mean, I don't necessarily talk to a lot of the people that I went to high school with, but the fact that it was being sent to Jess's sister, it was everywhere. I think that Jess has done a very good job at manipulating her family and downplaying her roles and actions. She's just very good at making excuses. Here's Dani.

I felt like I was their voice because it was a situation that felt like it might have been embarrassing or something they might have not have wanted to come out about because it was their trauma and it was a sticky, bad situation that happened to them. So I felt like I could be a good voice for them in that situation.

A lot of the responses on my TikTok, it's a lot of victim blaming. There's a lot of people coming with compassion. The internet is the internet. I'm used to it. Obviously, I've been online, but there have been like tons of judgment with the story. I mean, even if I tell one of my friends, it's people like, oh, well, why would they date someone online for that long? They never met them in person. They never talked to him on the phone.

And as everybody listens to all the episodes, I think they'll understand the amount of manipulation and the amount of women she's done this to. Clearly, she's good at it. Like, clearly, she can keep someone in a relationship for an extended period of time. And just because somebody might be naive, it doesn't mean that somebody should take advantage of them. Yeah.

I think that makes that person a predator. I don't think that that makes it right at all just because somebody is looking through rose-colored glasses that you should take advantage of them. That's not right at all. It's like saying, like, if you got mugged at night, telling someone, well, you shouldn't walk in the middle of the night.

Basically, every time the girls have went and talked to the DA, they basically just kind of shrugged their shoulders. The girls have been looking through their text messages with Jess and with Brody, trying to find any sort of anything incriminating. A lot of them were looking through the pictures Jess sent.

It feels like a real, true, crazy investigation because every single person she mentions is connected in some crazy, weird way or some reason she says something that her catfish likes or does. For example, he likes motocross, but there was a popular guy in high school who likes motocross.

There's connections to every single thing she does. Like the suicide stuff and ending up on a ventilator. We talked to one of her ex-boyfriends and he literally told me that happened to him maybe a year before he met Jess. She steals stories from every single person. So it's just been a lot of researching and looking through all their text messages and trying to see if they could find anything. I've been just getting random messages from people and hopefully the podcast will help with that.

Okay, today is Friday, March 15th, 9.56 a.m. Central Time. I'm in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest, and I am going to make first attempt call to Jessica Pauly to ask her what the fuck is her fucking problem. Just kidding, but basically.

I feel a little bit nervous. I feel giddy. I feel just excited to ruin her weekend, honestly. Just very excited about that. So I'm going to try on my cell. I got all those survivors' consent. They're waiting in the group chat. I let them know I'm about to call. Lauren just sent, I can't wait to hear your customer service. I don't hate you voice. I'm going to try my best, girl. Okay, here we go. It's ringing. Hello? Hello?

Hi, I'm trying to reach Jessica Pauley. Who is this? My name is Tiffany Reese. I'm a journalist working on a case and her name came up in it. What kind of case are you working on? Who's this? This is Jess, but I'm not going to answer questions unless I know what you're talking about. Sure, I'll explain everything. I just want to make sure I have the right person before I disclose any information.

I don't want to be a part of anything. I've already gone to court over what you're going to talk about. Oh, yeah. We're aware. So your comment is no comment then on all the allegations? Correct. Okay. Thank you so much. Yep. Well, there we go. No comment. I wonder who the woman in the background was. This is Tiffany. Hey, Tiffany. This is Jess. I just talked to you on the phone. I need to know how you got my number. I'm reporting these things.

Oh, it's publicly listed on the internet. Oh, is your privacy important to you? It's important to all your victims too. I have so much proof. It's insane, baby girl.

Who are you with so I can report this to my attorney? You can have your attorney call me on this number directly, and I'd love to speak with them. And if they want to offer any further comment, I'd love that too. Let's do it. We have no comment for you, but I'm just asking. Okay, well, if you have no comment, then I'm not going to continue to speak to you and give you information. If you're not going to comment, then it goes both ways. Okay, then don't call me again. I didn't. You just called me. Goodbye. Right.

Max's office. Hi, I'm trying to reach Lonnie. It's me. Oh, hi, Lonnie. This is Tiffany Reese. I'm a journalist, and I am working on a case, and your name has come up on it. So I was wondering if I could reach out to you for comment. What case? Who is it in regards to? Jessica Pauly. Oh, okay. I don't know if I can give any...

statements I had to call to the chief judge about it okay so basically just to give you some insight to what I'm referring to Jessica Polly we've found countless victims of hers through our investigation the podcast is coming out in a few weeks I heard with the with the catfish and stuff

Yes. So it's not just catfishing. It's also stalking, harassment, sexual abuse, just to name a few. But the reason why your name came up is because the victims had mentioned that

communicating with you that you're like a friend of Jessica's or your kids are friends or something like that and so that's why your name came up even though obviously your name isn't on the paperwork you filed by a different magistrate so anyways I have screenshots and that's what my name wasn't on there yeah and then there's also the claims that Jessica's made against you which is I can quote directly

February 25th, 2023, 9 20 PM. Lonnie is a swinger straight up showed me a nude and a video and essentially is implying that you had an inappropriate relationship with her. And so obviously that would be like a conflict of interest given any involvement with the case. So that's really why I'm reaching out. Yeah. Well, we heard about it and, uh,

talked to my judge, Judge Corpening, about that. Yeah. Just in general with the whole thing. Because, of course... I mean, to be clear, she's a fucking liar. You know what I mean? I know. She's also lied about every fucking possible thing out there. Oh, that's fine. Letting you know what's in the evidence that we are reviewing. Obviously, it has your name

in it multiple times. So essentially, yeah, what I would be reaching out for comments on is like your relationship to her, your relationship to the case. And then I'll be reaching out to the DA, like why it hasn't been moved forward. Why does it stand still? Unfortunately, we've traced 18 years of this behavior from Jessica Pauly. She's been doing this since she's 13 years old. Um, and,

So she's not only stalking these women, recording them, controlling them, abusing them. She's also stalked three men, one for 15 years now, and she just moved to his city.

Yesterday or the day before. Jessica is aware of the podcast. I reached out to her Monday of last week for comment. And like most guilty people, instead of saying I'm innocent, she said, you have no proof. And she's just like, okay, well, I already went to court over it and nothing happened. So like that's her stance. No remorse. Well, can I call you right back? Yep. Yep. This is my direct line.

And again, my name is Tiffany Reese and my podcast where the documentary is airing is called Something Was Wrong. If you want to look at our website or fact check any of that.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like...

I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah.

No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical.

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. This is Tiffany. Hey, Miss Tiffany, this is Lonnie calling back. Oh, hey, can you hear me okay? Hey, I can hear you. Okay, good, good, good.

Well, she brought your name into it, Jess did, to begin with, because she started telling the girls, you're coming over and you guys are doing whatever and yada yada. And then your name came up before even the court stuff with this Peeping Tom incident night. Lauren and Jess's son...

had an incident where somebody was like at their place and so either like just called you or whatever. Yeah. So that night she called me because like I said, nothing, we didn't do nothing to have anything. So she met my wife. Her and Lauren had been over to my house before. She had dinner with us. We went trick-or-treating with the kids. For me to have to tell my wife that, so it's kind of horrible because my wife was like, you know what? I know you're trying to be nice and everything, but...

this, this, it's not working. Yeah, it's a no for me kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, so when I first met her, I coached soccer, so he got on our soccer team. He was really good at soccer, him and my son. So they was hanging out. So Lauren and Jess, you know, they stayed together. So my son would go over there. Lauren and Jess took them, like my son, they took them to like the movies. When he come on my house, no problem at all. Still didn't think nothing of it. I mean,

I'm well known in the community, you know, I'm in this position. We do a lot for the community. I donate to the community. So it was probably like July 22, and then she called me. She was like, hey, I got something going on. And that's my, so I ain't talked to her for like five months or so. You're kidding, the Peeping Tom incident? No, no, no, no. The Peeping Tom was before this. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, Peeping Tom was before this. Got it. Like with that, yeah, she called me because she was out of town, mysteriously out of town.

Mysteriously is right. So first, I'm like, hey, get one of my guys to come out there. And as I'm coming out there, one of my guys coming out there, one of my deputies, because I was off duty, I tell them, like, hey, these, you know, friend of ours or whatever, they said they got someone coming there. And Lauren, I mean, she was checking up. Yeah. Can you please go there? Like, Lauren, like, really scared. And I called Lauren, and Lauren, she was like, I don't know what's going on, blah, blah, blah. Like, they keep knocking. So I went there with my pills, doing everything.

Jeez.

So then five months later, was it about the catfishing? Yes. Got it. She said, she was like, hey, some girl trying to accuse her of doing this, this, and this. So I went over to the house. Her and Lauren was there. Lauren was saying, yeah, this, this, this happened. She's like, wait, can't she do that? I'm like, well, if it's not true, then. She's like, well, no, it is true. I'm like, huh? She's like, well, you know, she took my boyfriend and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, you just need to.

I mean, just cut ties and, you know, just leave it at that. You know, but she never said how deep that stance went to or whatever. Right, right. You know, this girl took her boyfriend. That's why she did it and everything. And so. Again, drama. Like I said, Lauren was there because, you know, she was seen in the living room. So we talked about it. That was it.

She hit me back up later when she was asking me about, like, Salty Turtle or whatever. I'm like, wait, me and my friends, we go there. So we went there. Me and my friend was already there. You know, talked to St. Jess, talked to her for a little bit. She did bring up something about, oh, why are you always coming out? Your wife don't come out. Y'all must be swingers. So I'm like, no. I said, you know my wife. She's just not no bar type person. And I don't drink. I just come out here and socialize with my friends and go home.

And that was basically the extent of it. She was trying to fill you out. Yes. So this was February of last year. Mm-hmm. So I didn't hear back from her until...

This stuff came open, and then she called me, and she was like, hey, I probably got some type of... She was like, how do I consider if I got any type of restraining order against me? And I said, well, you know, you got to call the sheriff office and all that stuff. She was like, okay. She was like, because Lauren, I'm like, Lauren? I said, y'all a roommate. Like, what the heck? And she was like, yeah. So she was like, some stuff going on with catfishing. So I'm thinking this stuff from last year. I'm like, why Lauren...

Gotcha. You thought it was related to the first incident. Got it. Ah.

And then she called me back, and she was like, Lauren's doing this, Lauren's doing that. She was like, well, can I go take out paper, too? I'm like, yeah, but I said, that's not going to look right because she already got them on you. And I'm like, well, I'm like, why is she mad at you for catfishing this? Like, that you said with some other girl in Idaho, Iowa, whatever it is. And she was like, well, I was catfishing Lauren, too. And I said, what?

She's supposed to go and do charges. I immediately said, if any charges are involved, don't talk to me no more about this. I said, because I'm a manager and we do charges up here. I'm like, so I don't want to know nothing about this. And I got a screenshot of my text message.

When I'm telling her that, and I also got a screenshot, then I know I don't still got it because I screenshot it on my phone. Because she asked if I could come over to the house and talk to her about the case. And at this point, I already talked to Lauren, and Lauren telling me, oh, no, she said that you've been coming over. Well, one time I stopped in when she asked me about some stuff that was going on. So next thing you know, I see Bree at the court with some other girl. And Bree was like, oh, yeah, she come and find out she's catching me with a guy, Brody, blah, blah, blah, this.

So Brie was trying to get an ex parte. So the judge denied it. She came over here to me. And I guess she feel that I don't know why they think I got some type of loyalty to Jeff because I don't. Well, I'm sure she made it. That's what she does, right? She twists a little bit of truth.

to meet whatever narrative she needs in that moment. Nothing is consistent. It's just whatever. And that's what, you know, I was trying to think, you know, like I was telling my wife, I'm like, I got this new job. I do not need my name brought up. So Brie came over here and tried to get charges.

And I said, Bree, you can fill out the paperwork, but I'm not going to put my name on it because I don't want Jess to think I'm biased towards you or you think I'm biased towards you, like period. I said, so my name's not going on because I know both of y'all. I said, so I'm going to get one of the other managers. So my other manager, I text her. I said, hey, can you do this? Because that's what we're going to do. Family or friends, anybody you know, your name don't go on the paperwork.

Right, okay. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Because I think you know how you get a notification when someone added you. She added me back and then it disappeared. And that was the last time I talked to her. And that was like probably back in August or so. Maybe August, September. Gotcha. And then she, as far as we can tell, she removed from school within a few weeks. And my son, at that point, they had been running out of the house for like a long time. But, I mean, other than that, I mean, it wasn't

nothing that's going on so I told my wife what was said because we got a mutual friend I mean it's a small town right this lady who are good friends with me and my wife she's not telling me she's like yeah because you know she's saying this this and this and then I'm like she keeps saying that I'm like and you know I got a whole wife and I'm like that get out I said that's not good and I said I'm not so I'm gotta tell my wife this and

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I said, I don't want you saying anything. I said, because I know what you said to you, and I know I've been around. I said, but me and Jay don't have no relation. I told Lauren, I'm like...

she's going to come here. Like, this is our town. Right. Right. And cause of all this problem. Like, that's not good. She has no remorse. We know everybody. We know, like I said, we're a closed town. And I say, once word get out that she like that, I think she's going to leave. Yep. That's what she does. That's why she moves every two years. I mean, her background check has more addresses than anybody I've ever seen. It's insane. Wow.

I mean, she, this is what she does. So you would classify the relationship as basically like your sons were friends. It sounds like that's the majority of your communication was about your children. Yeah. Yeah. And we, yeah. She clearly is just like, I can do whatever I want. She has no remorse. I mean, she creates people, she kills them off.

She emotionally abuses these women. She stalks them in real life. She's not only an abusive fake boyfriend, she's an abusive friend, abusive roommate. Right. Right.

And she said the guy was supposed to show up. The guy didn't show up. And Laura was telling me everything. I'm like, yo, I'm like, so y'all in the same house. Yes. Sometimes in the same bed. Because they shared their one, they had two bedroom before they got the three bedroom. Yep. So y'all in the same room. And I'm like, that's, I'm like, holy crap. I'm like, Lauren, I'm so sorry you got to go through this and all that stuff. I'm like, look.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No worries.

She's like, are you busy? I said, what's up? I said, I was wondering if you could come by. And it's after they already told me what she said about me and everything. So then I said, I can't. I said, especially if it's in regard to this case. So I just had some questions. Thank you anyway.

And that was it. And my wife was like, just keep it short with her. She was like, you don't got to call her out. You don't got to question her. She was like, because obviously that's what she wants. I said, keep it short with her. Tell her don't contact you. And that's it. And block her number. That was it. Smart. So I blocked her. So I don't know if she ever tried to call me back because I blocked her number from calling me. Gotcha. Okay. And my wife blocked her from social media and all that good stuff too. I appreciate so much of your time. And this was extremely helpful. It really helps the survivors. Hopefully we're going to get her.

Yeah. Well, I keep posting on everything. Yeah. I mean, I did when it's going to air or yes. So the trailer should be coming out, uh, early April. So a few weeks here. Okay. Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you so, so much. Oh, you're welcome. Have a good one. You too. Bye-bye.

Hi, Detective Cable. My name is Tiffany Reese. I'm an investigative journalist and documentarian, and I'm working on a case, and your name and phone number was given to me by a few of the victims involved. Okay. And I wanted to reach out to you and just see where the case was at and if there's been any movement since. I can give you more details, obviously, about what I'm talking about specifically, but... Okay. Yeah, what's the case? Okay.

So it's Jessica Pauley. It was a cyber stalking. I think the charges that were ultimately brought against her by the DA at the hearing, the first hearing was a year of cyber stalking. And I believe what happened was there was essentially a situation where it could either be a misdemeanor or they could hold out and potentially kill.

bring more charges against her. So that's what the victims decided to do at the hearing. But I just kind of wanted to touch base with y'all and also just update you on what we have found, because we have found many more victims. And unfortunately, based on the evidence that we have, Jessica Pauley has been doing this for 18 years.

I'm not surprised by that. Yeah. Obviously, we got the case just because the victim at the time lived here and then we spoke to a friend, but I know that Jessica's been kind of all over the place. Mm-hmm. Have all of those victims that you reach out to go to their, like, local agencies to deal with those types of things. I don't believe it's a case that we prosecuted on, so. I'm

I'm curious, do you guys have, and I know this is very like resource-based, but do y'all have any FBI contact or like a dual task force that potentially could work with me on a federal level? Because that would give us obviously access to way more charges.

I don't have any personal contacts that I could give out. Okay. I was just curious because I've worked with some police in states where they have dual task force with a cyber crime able to really open the doors for us in a different way, obviously, because of the access to federal versus state charges. As I'm sure you're well aware, the stalking laws in this country don't necessarily lead to years and years behind bars.

even when we get those convictions. So I'm curious if you can tell me, like, did you guys interview Jessica? I would think the best case for you would probably be just to try to request those reports if that's what you want. Okay. Now, I went on the website, and it looks like there's, like, no phone number and no email. It's the best way, really, to just go in person to get those records. Or if you just call the main number.

Okay, gotcha. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And then would it be helpful for me to send along what I've got?

I'm sure if you want to, I can take a look at it. Like I said, I don't believe we saw any charges. Okay. Yeah. I can definitely send you the criminal timeline and the evidence that we have organized digitally. Okay, great. Thank you so, so much. And if you have any follow-up questions or anything, please feel free to reach out to me. I'll include my number on the email as well. All right. Awesome. Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Hello? Hi, is this the correct office for FOIA request?

Yes, ma'am. It is. Hi. My name is Tiffany Reese, and I got this phone number from Detective Cable. She let me know that this would be the correct place to contact to find out more information on how I could submit a FOIA request. Okay. Yeah, I can email you one if you're not in the area, and you can go down and send it back. Okay? That would be fantastic. Thank you so much.

I'll send that to you, and then what I do is I have to get it approved by my captain, whatever I release, but it normally doesn't take long, and then I'll get it right back to you. Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much. I appreciate your help. Okay, what is a good number just in case I need to call you for any reason? Yeah, feel free. All right, I got it, and then I will send that FOIA request over to you right now. Thank you so much. Have a good day. Thank you. You too. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Hi, I believe this is Tiffany Reese. This is Jerry Hannett, the assistant district attorney. I got a message on pretty much my new office line. I just got transferred back down to New Hanover. I believe the number, you should have it. But yeah, if this is the right voicemail, go ahead and give me a call back whenever. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye.

So I'm working on this investigation documentary. It was a cyber-stalking case in August. The charges that were available were basically going to be a year off social media or the survivors could kind of hold out and see if there was, you know, more charges that could be brought. Lauren is one of the victims and then Brianna is the other. They both mentioned that they spoke

spoke with you briefly before the hearing and then after the hearing and that you were lovely to them, but essentially that your hands were tied. It sounds like legally speaking. And so what I'm trying to do is figure out, one, if I can get you the information and evidence that I've collected, and two, if you have any connections with the FBI because, like,

The evidence that we've surfaced is that Jessica Pauly has been doing this for 18 plus years. There's 20 to 30 victims already that have been located. And a lot of it is including victims from multiple states, multiple jurisdictions. But the internet is one of her main tools that she's using. So essentially, that's why I'm reaching out to you. One, if you have any comment about the case or where it's at or what your hopes are for it.

Two, if I can send you what I've collected. And three, if you think there's any chance that we could get in contact with either like the dual task force or the FBI field office in North Carolina. Yeah, I'm thinking, I remember this case. Now that you're bringing it up, I think I know which one you're talking about. And I had to review to see kind of what happened towards the end. And I remember they were trying to

Did they ever end up hiring attorneys? I'm not sure if they ended up hiring an attorney. I mean, basically, because as you know, the state laws when it comes to cyber stalking, what was presented to you and what we've now found and even what the survivors have found over the months and the other evidence.

is a different picture. So I would love to get it to y'all if you would be open to that. The criminal timeline that we have is currently 25 pages long. And then we're cataloging, obviously, all the evidence. But essentially, like what we've determined, the potential charges could be would be stalking, cyber stalking, sexual abuse, psychological damage, invasion of privacy, identity theft.

non-consensual sex abuse material. Yeah, and I'm trying to remember, I think, you know, is the case still pending? I can't even remember. As far as I know, it's pending because it was essentially like Jessica and her mom showed up to the hearing. A couple of the survivors were there with you.

The best they could do was like a year off social media misdemeanor. And like no contact. Right, right. Because they both have their restraining orders with her. And so, yes. But we've found, like I said, we've found victims similar, but in other states. And also, this isn't just cyber stalking. It's really like in-person stalking, like significant years and years of her...

Yeah.

Like the sheriff's office. What was the latest on that? Did you guys presented your new stuff or anything to the sheriff's office yet? Did they have any luck with that? No, I think they're kind of waiting for me to take the charge at this point. I've been trying. I reached out to the FBI because that's where I've had the most success for with cyber crimes. In my experience is like a dual task force member that does cyber crime or an FBI agent, because obviously they have access to different laws. Right.

But I also understand that they only really prosecute like 20 of these cases a year on average is what I'm told. So it's really a matter of like getting their attention. And I am trying to pursue the resources that I have. But obviously, you know, the state law is very different than the federal law when it comes to this stuff. Yeah, I've been talking to them for a long time in our district courts and courts.

I remember them. I can't remember if they had much luck with the sheriff's office on trying to get felonies charged and all that stuff. I remember trying to give them some attorneys to talk to and then thinking district court, we kind of just came up with this leave them alone thing. But, okay, I remember this all now. Okay. So that would be your official advice to them would be speak to the attorneys that you possibly sent? No, I wouldn't, especially now.

Okay, got it. I mean, back in the day. Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, like, no, no. I mean, obviously now, I mean, I was like, you know, I got to talk to my boss if we wanted to do anything official or what they would officially do now with no information. No, I definitely would want to talk to some people about that because they have every right to try to contact the FBI or bring it back to the sheriff's office, you know, anything like that, bring it back to the Pender County District Attorney's office, you know,

There are definitely a lot of options on the table if you get this found. You found new evidence? Yes, yes. New victims, new evidence. Yeah, we also have her confession on tape. I have calls with her. All sorts of fun stuff for you, Jerry. Okay, okay, cool. I know your DA's out this week. I'm also technically out this week, but I wanted to connect with y'all because the trailer goes out on Thursday. Okay.

but would love, like I said, to send you all this stuff and see if there's anything we can do. What I'm trying to do is educate the public and validate the victims' experiences.

and get justice for all of her victims. Not only the female victims, but the men who she's been stalking and stealing their photos. And I mean, one of the male victims says that she has photos of him that he has no memory of giving anyone consent to or anyone even being with him when the photograph was taken. So we definitely have a lot of stalking, potential stalking charges here too. There's also some just really weird incidences that I'd love to have your thoughts on in terms of this Peeping Tom incident that happened.

Okay, let me, what's your email? It's... All email Ben and just kind of give him the heads up and just see when he gets back kind of what his thoughts are. I mean, there's, you know, really what you guys are trying to do, I guess, is reopen the investigation, you know, start a new investigation or reopen an investigation. You know, that there could be a lot of

So Lauren...

was the victim that was actually living with Jess Pauly when she found out about that. And then Brianna was the other victim. And then there was Monica, who is from Iowa. A lot of the victims are in Iowa because that's where Jessica is from. And she's been doing this since she's 13 years old. Yeah. Yeah.

And then how's it been going? Has she broken that no contact or how's it been going? As far as we know, however, there have been a few strange circumstances. Like she definitely still has photos of them, like up on her photography website and Instagram that she's posted since, which is just seems odd to me. She's fled to Florida. Well, not fled, but she's moved again as she does. She moves, you know, she moves every year and a half or so to her new victim. Yeah, yeah.

Jerry, if you can believe it, we have evidence to support that she was texting her newest victim from court with y'all standing in court with y'all and her mom crying a river. Yeah. So she's done it since we know that. So she's not going to stop until we make her stop. Yeah. It's very sexual, very sexual.

very abusive. I'll send you the text. I mean, she creates fake people and terrorizes her victims by basically saying, if you do the wrong thing, I'm going to kill myself and it's going to be all your fault. And so she like terrorize. That's why anytime the victims try to like cut off contact with her, she's,

killing fake people or she's going to kill herself or all this insanity. She uses her own kid to validate that these people are real. She inserts herself into these people's real lives and sleeps in bed with them and rubs their back while she's literally creating the chaos.

It's so sadistic. And not to mention the impact that it's had on her male victims. I mean, the one that she's been stalking and, you know, using his identity for 15 years now to abuse women. Oh, 100%. Yep. I mean, there's got to be enough to get a freaking warrant for her computer and her phones, right? Yeah.

but that's that's kind of the and i you know once you kind of

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's tough with her being so all over the place. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's such a nuanced type of abuse. Right. And like the, the crime itself is so unique and the different elements to it that I feel like we really need somebody who understands cyber crime and stalking in order to make the case work, you know? Um, yeah. Let me, let me, um, I'll, I'll email Ben and kind of just give him your email and tell him what's

Appreciate it so much. Have a great week. Thank you. Bye. Next time on Something Was Wrong.

Thank you for calling the SBI. We're supposed to be meeting with him, compiling all of our evidence that we've gathered since then. I really hope that anyone out there, that if they're going through this, don't be embarrassed. Respect yourself and have confidence. You deserve so much better than this. Get out of that situation.

I don't believe that she has stopped or will stop until she gets what she deserves. Well, now her biggest problem is the FBI. So baby girl's got bigger problems than us now. I didn't do anything wrong, but still, like, I was so nervous. I was like, it's the fucking FBI. Enjoy that beach, bitch, because it's going away. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe, friends.

Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. This season, our theme song, You Think You, by Gladrags, is covered by Palehound. For music and tour dates, go to palehound.com.

If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at somethingwaswrongpodcast. As always, thank you so much for listening. You think you know me, you don't know me well.

You think you know me, you don't know me. Maybe you've talked to someone.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Welcome to another round of Drawing Board or Miro Board. Today we talk brainstorms with UX designer Brian. Let's go. First question.

You thought you'd see everyone's idea in the team brainstorm, but you've got a grand total of one. Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing board. In Miro, the team can add ideas now or later. And with privacy mode, we can keep them anonymous until they're good to share. Correct. Next, you need the best way to explain your idea, but all you have is a few sticky notes. Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing board. In Miro, I could record videos, add text, images, links, and digital sticky notes, of course. Right again!

Now, you're looking for a past idea you thought was just genius. Only you could find... Oh, there it is. Drawing board or Miro. All our finished and unfinished work lives in one place. And he's won. For a limited time, visit Miro.com slash brainstorm now and get a free business plan trial to unlock even more brainstorming tools like private mode and voting. That's M-I-R-O dot com slash brainstorm now.