S19 E5: (5/5) [Amy] Overcomer
54:10 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Something Was Wrong early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

This episode is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now. You're driving, cleaning, and even exercising. But what if you could be saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. And auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Multitask right now. Quote today at Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates.

National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar. Whether you listen to stories, motivation, any genre you love, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking. Maybe you'll find inspiration in the incredible true story of black female mathematicians at NASA in Hidden Figures, or the

fantasy world of Throne of Glass. There's more to Imagine when you listen. As an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500. That's audible.com slash imagine or text imagine to 500-500.

Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder. Content warnings for each episode and confidential resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes. Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes.

Pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, Broken Cycle Media, or Wondery. The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed as medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. Thank you so much for listening.

He was ultimately sentenced to the maximum sentence that the state of Colorado allows, which included time served. He got four years with time served plus two years of parole. I never saw my detective who was assigned to my case come to find out he was actually at the sentencing and I did not know it until it was all over.

There was just one guy in there with my family at the end of it because we were the last hearing of the day and he came up after I just broke down. I wrote thank you notes to everyone, the victim advocate, the judge, my prosecutor, the detective. I called the special agent I talked to at the FBI and told him how everything ended. I was so grateful for everybody. He was sentenced in September of 2022 and he was up for parole in May of 2023. He had been in jail for a year and a half.

The parole hearing, the whole goal is he wants to get out of jail early and the judge is assessing if he's rehabilitated and can function in society. I just saw this man six months prior in person and that had a huge emotional toll.

But now to hear that he's up for parole, that's just terrifying and disturbing. Leading up to the parole hearing, I don't know what to expect. I'm really relying on the victim advocate in their office to guide me. And so I know what to expect. I'm in the victim notification system. They have to notify me it's coming up. They have to give me the opportunity to provide a victim impact statement for that parole hearing. I could attend the hearing, but others couldn't. And I don't remember the rationale as to why.

Ahead of the parole hearing, all of the prior victims who had provided statements did so again, which I'm very grateful for. It's not a fun process to go through, as you can imagine. Having to put another victim impact statement together, it's very traumatizing and triggering, not only for me, but I'm sure for the others who did it as well. Just when you think everything's put to rest, there's something else. I have to go through this again? This guy is guilty. He pled guilty. He's in jail. Now you have to disturb my peace and the peace of others.

I went into it with high anxiety and dread. I attended that hearing this last May. It was online. He did not know I was in the room. I knew that I had to attend it alone. I was sitting in my kitchen. The victim advocate called me first and we got on the phone and they loop in the committee parole board chair. She explains what happened. So we're going to enter the room. Morrison doesn't know I'm there.

During the hearing, my palms were sweating. I'm trying to take notes because when you're in that moment, it's traumatic. You think you're going to remember everything, but you don't. And in previous hearings, I had had my family there with me. At the very least, one of my parents, oftentimes both, and then my sister.

Not to have anybody there by my side for this was different and a first for me in this entire experience. It doesn't mean I'm not strong enough to deal with it, but I didn't want to miss anything that was being said. And I'm not sure what to anticipate going into this. For the Colorado Board of Parole, today's date is May 9th, 2023. And I'm speaking with Morrison by video for a parole application hearing.

All right, so I show you have a 2021 stalking case out of Denver. On your MIT, your parole eligibility date currently sits at July 13th of 23, and your MRD, or your mandatory release date, currently sits at July 13th of 25, and you'll have a two-year parole tail. I show you arrived in 2022. This case, it seems, starts back several years, according to the police report. So tell me

bit about what was going on for you in the community prior? I've been living the life of a hermit basically in my parents home. They live in a retirement community in New Jersey and I have been living with them my entire life outside of the time I spent in college and law school.

I graduated from law school in 2007. That was basically my life when I returned from Michigan to South Carolina in January 2008. We moved to New Jersey from South Carolina in 2010, around Memorial Day. And since then, up until my expedition and incarceration for this case,

I had basically been a hermit living at home 24/7, completely detached from the rest of society in every significant way imaginable. No employment, no friends, no social contacts.

My only social contacts, if you will, were with my parents because I happened to live with them and with my sister because she would come down and visit. So help me understand the reasoning for being so isolated. You went to college, you went to law school. Did you struggle with isolation then as well or is this something trigger this?

Yes and no. Those environments were kind of like this environment in that I was forced to live away from home when I went to college and when I went to law school. So it kind of was like this environment in that, well, it's kind of forced exposure. So no, I wasn't as isolated as I had been.

and have been when living with my parents. But at the same time, did I have a normal social life? The vast majority of my classmates had in college or the vast majority of my classmates had in law school. No, you could definitely say I was still pretty significantly isolated. I can honestly say that the last time I really applied myself

to my studies was probably in middle school. Ever since high school I've just been posting basically on natural abilities, not really focusing on studying or dutifully doing my homework or classwork like all of my classmates were until law school. And when I went to law school at the University of Michigan, which is

is an elite law school. I was surrounded by people, my peers who had gone to undergraduate institutions like Yale and Harvard and Stanford. So it was a little bit more difficult for me to co-spy in law school certainly than it had been up to that point. But I still didn't really apply myself because at that point I didn't really have any concrete goal in mind. It was just some place I had gone because when I graduated from college

I was debating getting a PhD in history or going to law school, but even that I really didn't put that much thought or effort into making that decision and I guess you could say I just kind of chose law school in a way. Okay, so you complete law school and you move back home. There's no period of your life that you live on your own. You didn't get a job to sustain yourself. Why do you think that

think that is? Tell me then how the circumstances in this case start happening.

Okay, well, first of all, I just want to emphasize the fact that my sentencing when Detective first came to visit me in September of 2021,

to inform me that I was going to be arrested for this crime and extradited. I take full responsibility for every single one of my actions, whatever. I'm going to say by way of explanation in response to the question you just asked me, there's no way an excuse or minimization or rationalization because I knew what I was doing was certainly illegal and was causing significant emotional distress and trauma.

to multiple people and I continue to do it anyway so I make no excuses for any of the actions that I took that led to this case. I own them completely and fully. I have been diagnosed with severe OCD and severe anxiety

for most of my life and i had not treated it uh my parents as you might imagine since i was a 43 year old man with a lot of me living at home completely unemployed with no wife uh had been imploring me for some time basically going back to high school and college to see someone

and to be treated for the OCD and the anxiety so that I might have a life and that I might be a productive part of society and not a hermit living at home with his parents.

On and off. I saw a psychiatrist. My first psychiatrist was in my senior year in college when I kind of was on the verge of a nervous breakdown before taking the LSAT. I remember my sister asked me to borrow my car to drive to work because her car was in the shop. And I had the LSAT coming up in two or three days. I almost had a nervous breakdown because I was catastrophizing.

Well, if she borrows the car and she gets into some sort of an accident and the car is damaged, then I won't be able to drive to the LSAT in two days. Just a whole bunch of craziness basically due to my anxiety. And my parents really realized at that time, well, that's really a complete overreaction and you need to see somebody. So I saw my first psychiatrist in college in New Jersey back in 2011, 2010.

I don't know, by my estimate, probably around eight or nine different psychiatrists, but always on an on and off basis. And I take full responsibility for that as well. Because I know that I obviously had issues, that I had problems. My parents and my sister have been imploring me to see somebody to correct those problems so that I might have a life. And I never stuck with them. So for the past 22 years, that's been the pattern. I saw a psychiatrist at law school

So I was a psychiatrist after I graduated from law school in South Carolina, right up to the time in New Jersey before I was extradited. But I had always kind of been looking for a silver bullet. I was hoping that one of these psychiatrists would prescribe me something and that after a couple weeks, it would get into my system, whatever the drug was, that I would feel significantly better. And when that didn't happen, especially when I started experiencing some side effects, I got really bad stomach aches.

I would give up on them too soon. I would stop seeing the psychiatrist and stop taking the meditation. At the point all of these events occurred, I was, it's fair to say, a very depressed

angry, frustrated 43-year-old with a law degree, 43-year-old man with a law degree from an elite law school who had done nothing with his life whatsoever and was living as a apartment in his retired parents' home. My parents would constantly remind me that you had basically squandered your entire life, that you had squandered

whatever intellectual gifts you have been given, whatever opportunities you have been given, educational opportunities you have been given, and you have accomplished absolutely nothing in your life. You've never really faced any significant challenges that you've overcome. You've never really gone out into the world at all and accomplished anything.

you're going to be a pretty unhappy, frustrated, angry person. Now unfortunately I wasn't unhappy enough to motivate myself to see somebody on a regular basis to try to change that on the outside and once again that's on me. I take full responsibility for that. I know that that was something I should have done at the time. I just chose not to do it at the time for a variety of reasons which I now realize were wrong. My head was in the wrong place at that time.

The psychiatrist that I saw in the downtown detention center helped me understand it, as well as the graduate student I saw for CBT. When I was seeing them, and I was first extradited out here to Denver, they basically helped me understand, okay, the OCD you have is bad, granted.

And that's something that I always had focused on and my parents had always focused on because I was obsessed with the idea that, okay, if my father touches his wallet or touches his keys and then goes into the refrigerator or the utensil drawer, he's contaminating those things.

and I would start catastrophizing about, well, once he's contaminated the utensil drawer, there's nothing anybody can do, and I'm going to get sick, I'm going to get the flu, and I'm unemployed, and so I have no health insurance, so then I'm going to have to go to the doctor, and my person's going to have to pay for that. That was just a small snippet of what living with me was like. You know, through my anxiety, I could not...

interact with the world at large because I couldn't control the world at large. So I basically, and Dr. Watson and Dr. Mylene helped me understand this, I shrank the entire world to be my parents' house. That became my world. And I tried to deal with the anxiety in an extremely maladaptive manner, which was counterproductive. Dealing with my parents and trying to control everything inside this house from, "I'm the only one allowed to go into the refrigerator. I'm the only one allowed to go into the utensil drawer."

If I see them touch the door handle of the remote control for the TV, I'm going to automatically get my cross pads and disinfect that even if it's up to 40 or 50 times a day, even if it's to the point where my skin is cracking from the exposure. So that's basically where my mind was at when all these accidents began. I had myself on the verge of a nervous breakdown and I had my parents on the verge of a nervous breakdown. The vindictiveness and the threatening actions

from which this case arose, I would say definitely took place through the fact that I had that anger and that frustration in my own life. I turned to the internet obviously as my only outlet for social interaction with people on the outside because I had no interaction with my peers. I was on the internet

approximately, 11 to 12 hours a day. I would wake up maybe around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, eat breakfast and go into my current computer room, which is where the laptop was, and I'd be on the laptop the rest of the morning, all afternoon,

I'd eat dinner at 5 o'clock, 5.30. I'd go back to the computer room after eating dinner and I'd be on the internet until midnight, 1 a.m., 2 a.m., sometimes 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. I'd go to bed, I'd wake up, I'd repeat that the next day, day after day after day to substitute the lack of social interaction I had with my peers by controlling all interactions through the internet.

by creating these fake profiles, by trying to simply control whatever social interaction I was able to gain either through dating websites or through message boards if I rent a house, if I was actually interacting with people face to face. I obviously could not exert as much control over those interactions as I could on the internet. So the predictiveness and the threats

definitely pain from my inability to control, that latent anger, which I already had, the latent frustration, which I already had within me, the latent depression, which I obviously already had. I tapped into that and I reacted with anger and vindictiveness. So how do you address your mental health now? What are you working on? How do you see yourself being able to transition?

Like I said, I owe a great deal of gratitude to everybody I've worked with. I never shared any of this with my parents. They obviously knew there was a problem because they saw my behavior at home. But I never opened up to them. I never told them what was going on inside my head. I never told them about the anger and the frustration. I never opened up to them because I'd always been a very private person with them.

makes sense when you think about well you know i completely cast myself from society and didn't really interact with anybody i'd always been a very circumspect private person and

And something that I've realized since this entire experience of incarceration began two years ago, I take full responsibility for what's completely on me. Actually have a way of completely opening up to somebody and just vetting all this out. And I have consistently refused to do that. I was just able to tell them everything. I mean, I told them, you know, I'm here now. Obviously, all of these issues have led me to be extradited from New Jersey.

So then let me

Let me get us back on track. We only have so much time, and you've given me a lot of information about how your mental health, you've struggled for a long time. Long story short, I stuck with it. After two months, the Zoloft was helping me tremendously with both the anxiety and the OCD.

I'm currently taking 250 milligrams, which is above the FDA recommended limit of 200 milligrams. I've never been in a better or happier place. I'll be completely honest with you. This is, I know we need to wrap up, but...

I've said this to everybody and even though it sounds odd at first, it's the God's honest truth. Even my fellow English, I basically read with me and they said, you know, we can honestly see that. This has been the greatest experience of my life. This has been the greatest adventure of my life. And I understand that that might sound to a normal person who had been living a normal life up to this point, really perverse and bizarre and even absurdly strange.

But to somebody who hadn't been leaving the house at all and had actually no life, was in a really unhappy, depressed, frustrated place for the past 13 years. Being extradited out here to Colorado, on the other side of the country, facing what is obviously the most significant challenge of my life, something which I brought upon myself, which I invited upon myself due to my accident, and just

Getting through this, some of the psychiatrists said, this is like forced exposure for you. All the issues you had, this was taking you out of your hermetically sealed comfort zone at home, which you were not going to leave in any other way, as evidenced by the fact that I didn't do anything to change my situation for 13 years, even though I was implored to. Oh, you don't like using public restrooms? You would do that? Well, guess what? You're in prison now. You've got to do that. You don't like hanging out with other people if you're uncomfortable? Guess what? You're going to be surrounded by...

Yeah, I mean, I get that this has been quite a challenge for you. I am very concerned that your thought process about this being the greatest experience of your life...

came at the cost of somebody else being victimized by your behavior. And so I would encourage you to spend some time thinking about the impact you had and stop thinking so much about yourself because you've spent, I guess, close to 30 minutes now telling me about how you have had this diagnosis, that you're so smart, that you have had a hermit lifestyle over and over. I've

pointedly asked you several times about the impact or why you decided to do this and you come right back to yourself. And so I would encourage you, Mr. Morrison, to spend some time over the course of your greatest experience of your life thinking about how you've impacted the victim in your case because you terrorized someone for your own joy. And I don't know if that's lost on you or if it just hasn't come about.

But you've said nothing about that to me. I fully appreciate the effect of what I did. When the detective first came to my house, I admitted that I did it. I never lied or hide behind any excuses like so many people do. I chose to plead guilty, even though my defense attorney advised me against it. And even though there was no deal on the table whatsoever, I said, no, I did it. I'll plead guilty. I stood up in front of the judge. The judge even told me, are you sure you want to plead guilty to this?

I pled guilty. I completely terrorized my victims. I completely terrorized my victims, my victim's mother,

called me a Nazi at my sentencing. And I completely agree with that. That is, was a completely spot on assessment. I told the judge that basically my crimes against my victims, which include my primary victim, her family, her friends, her coworkers, her larger circle, social circle, and society itself, my actions violate. And I said this at my sentencing, and I'll say this now because it's the truth. It's the way I feel.

Yes.

And I can communicate through that, through how it caused them a tremendous amount of emotional distress and even physical distress. I have never minimized that or denied that whatsoever. Okay, I appreciate that. And my next question for you, Mr. Morrison, is what are your plans for a potential release? Eventually, you'll get out.

And so what do you plan to do? I mean, I saw that you want to interstate, but not sure that you want to involve your parents until you've been released or approved to be released. But what are you going to need to do as far as like getting into the world, not repeating this same, same, same? Well, I remember I met with a psychiatrist in New Jersey before I was extradited. And I explained the situation to him. And he told me that I,

I understand you'll still be a patient of mine whenever you return from the state of Colorado, even if it's after several years. You'll still be a patient and I'll continue to see you and I will recommend a CBT licensed therapist for you to see as well. So since the Zoloft and the Clonidine has been so effective for me, I'm going to continue, obviously, on those medications. And as I understand it, as case manager Deal explained to me, I will probably also be required to get a job as part of my parole.

And I'm sure that that is something that my parents would require from me if I'm to move back in. So whenever I am released, I plan on obviously getting a job because I don't plan on violating my parole. Okay.

All right, well, I'll make some decisions, Mr. Morrison. The two options I have are to defer you and you will have this type of hearing next year, or I can take you to the full board. The full board is myself and my eight colleagues. You're not present for that. It would be a presentation I would make based on our conversation today and what we can review in the computer. You do need the majority vote from the full board to be released.

The process to go to the full board takes several months. You wouldn't have an answer until probably the end of June, beginning of July. If you were granted a release, it would be tabled for an interstate plan, which can take four months. So that's my next step. I'll make a decision today about taking you to the full board or deferring you. Okay, thank you so much.

Most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions. But get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions,

monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features.

Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash wondery. That's rocketmoney.com slash wondery. rocketmoney.com slash wondery.

Achieving a gorgeous grin from home isn't a total mystery with BiteClear aligners. Just don't be surprised if all of your sleuthing friends start asking, what's your secret? Begin by ordering your at-home impression kit today for only $14.95. BiteClear aligners are doctor-directed and delivered to your door.

Treatment costs thousands less than braces. Plus, they offer flexible financing, accept eligible insurance, and you can pay with your HSA FSA. Get 80% off your impression kit when you use code WONDERY at Byte.com. That's B-Y-T-E dot com. Start your confidence journey today with Byte. I had heard his voice and I had heard him speak, but I had not heard him speak for the length of time that he did.

I was just blown away hearing him talk. His voice was so unexpected to me because he had left me multiple voicemails and the voice that I heard in those voicemails was not his real voice. Shocker. Hearing the real voice of that person who's

hurt you so badly and attacked you and harassed you and tormented you for so long. There's just something emotional about it too and creepy. In his parole hearing, one of the things he said is he used the internet to socialize and torment people, dating sites, message boards. And when he said that, it was also validating in the sense that there are other victims. And he just admitted, I met him on a dating site. I did not meet him on a message board. So who else is out there that he has been doing this to?

I think the moment when he said that being in jail was the best experience of his life, my jaw dropped. I'll never forget that. And I looked around as if there were people there with me like, did you just hear that? I will never forget that moment. It was just like, wow.

I knew there was something evil and disturbingly wrong with this individual. To hear him in his own words, essentially validate that in his own way, gave me validations the right word. That, you know, when you're going through this process, a part of you is like, did I make the right decision? Is this the right thing to do? Is this going to ultimately hurt me more than it's going to hurt him? Is this going to do any good? Listening to him in that parole hearing, I was able to take a deep breath through the anxiety I was having.

You're trying to rationalize what kind of person would do this, why they would do it, what happened to them that they're so hurt and angry that this is what they're doing. And this was the first time that I got some insight into what that potentially was. This guy is exactly from a profile standpoint who I thought he was. I came out of it with a sense of empowerment and validation as to why I pressed charges to begin with.

When I was going through this whole ordeal, I think for self-protection, some people tended to discount who this person was as just, you know, someone who's bored in their parents' basement, passing the time and taunting people.

My dad, I love him and he is my ultimate protector. I think for self-protection, you know, in his mind, he had said, this guy's behind a computer and he was living in his parents' basement. This guy is harmless. I just have told him repeatedly, I think this guy is capable of a whole hell of a lot more. The parole hearing ends and the parole board chair had some pretty strong words for him.

I'm standing there and I'm shaking my fist in the air like, yes, yes, yes. I'm wondering, like, is she seeing through this? The way she ended it with her questions and what she had to say to him validated that, yes, she did. So when it wound down, I am celebrating. He is going to be denied parole. There's no way this guy is going to get paroled. I'm so grateful. This is another chapter of this experience and process that I can put behind me and get back to my normal life and have some peace again.

After it's over, then the three of us, the victim advocate, the parole board chair, and myself get on a three-way call. And she essentially said to me two things that I'll never forget. One was, I don't typically do this or say this, but I feel like it's necessary to tell you that I am absolutely denying his parole today. And two, I am so sorry for what happened to you. This man deserves more than 10 years in jail.

She may have said it in her own way, but those two things were so validating. And going into the parole hearing was high anxiety and frustration. And to come out of it feeling validated and empowered, as hard as it was to hear his voice and to deal with anything with him. It was the ending that I wanted. That's right. He fucked with the wrong person and he fucked with the wrong family. Yep. I got a little bit of my mom in me, so watch out, Morrison.

Unbelievable. Thank goodness we learned earlier on that our impact statements would not be read by the parole board member. And we fought for that. Amy fought for that. Another person said, you make sure she gets those impact statements. So we tweaked our impact statements from the sentencing to why he should not get parole. But we were not allowed to be there. We should be able to be there. The parole board member, they should see the family. They should be able to see living faces and especially the victim. Why is his face the only face that gets to be seen? And these are the laws that we need to change.

Rules are sometimes made to be broken because they're so inhumane, especially when it comes to this situation. When we listened to the audio of his parole hearing, it was clearly evident, no remorse whatsoever, cold-hearted, calculated, only concerned about himself, having experienced the greatest time of his life during this whole process and meaning it. And never once did he think about Amy. And that came out, fortunately, in the parole hearing. And the parole board member

She said, Amy, I don't do this. I want you to stay on after she's done with him. I want you to stay on. You and I need to talk. From what I understand from Amy, she called me immediately afterwards. And she said, I don't.

usually ever have to ask for them to make the audio of his parole hearing permanent part of his file. But she goes, I have told them this audio must be a permanent part of his file because of the things he said and didn't say on there. She did say to Amy, it's amazing to me that he was able to go up for parole. And fortunately, this gal saw right through him. She did not take it to the board. She made the decision. She told Amy out of her concern for Amy and what she heard from him that

I want you to know of all the dates that he's going to be able to go for residential housing or something in a housing situation. And she said, I want you to know these dates and be very well aware of them so you're prepared.

I really, with all my heart, hope that each time that he goes up to be able to get out early, that doesn't happen. I hope that he will serve, albeit short time in Colorado for the max sentence, that he has to serve it all in prison. We're praying to God that he stays in the whole time, yet he will still be out walking amongst all of us in midsummer of 2025. Then he has two years parole. And that is a whole nother saga because...

There's a whole lot that we need to have happen so that parole is done safely for Amy. That's a battle in and of itself. She has a permanent restraining order, which has to be redone every so often that she will have to do for the rest of her life or until his life ends too. Here's Amy's coworker, Natalie. His sentencing is a fraction of the year's

that he has really caused so much pain to Amy as a single victim. Does he feel remorse? I don't think so. How do we know that he's not going to continue to do this? And maybe he had a larger motive. We were able to catch him before we were able to see. He does not deserve to have the freedom that he's really taken away from so many for so many years.

I remember Amy trying to navigate the system at large, and it is a very complex and challenging system to navigate. Amy is highly educated and well-educated.

was extremely determined and just seeing how difficult and frustrating of a process it was, was truly discouraging. We know there's other victims that are still afraid to come forward. How do we support them, not only to influence the sentencing, but to make sure that their voice can be heard and that they can feel safe in their own community as well? I think what I love most about

about your podcast and podcasts in general is their ability to reach so many. The way Amy found out about this podcast and decided to really come forward with her situation was because hearing other stories and being encouraged to share your own.

As I mentioned in my personal statement, there are so many women who are scared to speak up, and I hope this gives them the courage to continue to do so, not only to maybe find additional victims in this case, but there are countless of other cases and victims that deserve equal attention and safety moving forward. I just want to thank you for the work that

that you're doing in sharing stories like this. This is how we can break the silence for these victims and encourage additional victims to feel that they do have a voice and they can be empowered to share their story because there is nothing more painful than someone who is suffering in silence. Here's Amy's work colleague, Sarah.

I hope that with Amy telling her story, this allows her to release more for herself. I hope this gives space for her. Honestly, I hope it helps all of us. Maybe part of that is from a cathartic sense of being able to tell the story out loud, not under the fear of it happening.

I think we have to continue to talk about this. But I think that some of that uphill battle is because we just don't have the types of laws and procedures to deal with these types of cyber stalking and harassment. And that is something that we have to change now.

I hope a couple of different things from this coming out. I hope that we strengthen legally how to stop this and come after those that are doing these types of crimes and harassment. I hope that this makes it so that it's not just blaming the victim for utilizing social media or apps, but to say that this isn't acceptable at all.

We have to continue to put in better measures, keep learning more, especially about social media and how things are monitored on that. There also needs to be better strengthening tools within these technologies to protect people. I still have a dozen or more of these old dummy requests in my apps.

Still to this day, when I get those unsolicited, it's taught me to be savvier and really ensuring that you're looking at each of them. I hope a lot of things start to happen from this conversation. And we always have to continue to have conversations of how victims are affected. And as always, that we give community to each other.

Here's Amy's business partner, Andy. Amy never expected something like this to happen to her. This has happened to many, many people. So don't think that it can't happen to you. You're not alone in these situations. And if you have someone to reach out to that you feel can be a support that'll help you through these things, I think for us, having such a great team of people to help support Amy in this was the reason that it ended so successfully.

And knowing that you're not alone in times like that is, I think, really important. So if there's a way to reach out to somebody, do it as soon and as early on as you feel like things have taken a turn for the worse and that you're in a situation that you don't really control anymore.

I think podcasts are a great way to get information and stories out there that will hopefully help other people. I'm fully supportive of Amy's efforts. She's trying to change the legislation within Colorado. She's met with a number of people in the effort to make sure that if people get caught doing things like this, the punishment actually fits the crime. And so I fully support Amy in all these efforts. Here's Amy's sister, Amanda.

I think the hope out of all this is that potentially him going to jail stopped him from doing this to other people and could have potentially even saved lives, you know, because it's hard to go through this stuff. And Amy had a good support system. And I would imagine, you know, some people, it's been a real struggle. But I think more than anything, just bringing awareness to this kind of stuff, because in Amy's experience of this and us being along for the ride, I had no idea how common this is.

There's not a lot of legislation around this type of stalking. It's just more new because of technology. And that's what makes it so scary. It's very common and there's not a lot that can be done about it. I think just knowing that it could happen to anybody. I know people say that all the time, but it's the truth. Being aware of how easily these types of things can happen and just the vastness of the Internet.

Once it starts, it can just be massive. So being really careful early on, being vigilant, being aware of these crimes and how frequent they are, and having empathy for the people that are experiencing it. It's not their fault. I know Amy wants to be like a resource for people that are experiencing this or have experienced it to just make changes and bring light to it in a way that can make some lasting change. Here's Amy's dad.

I always tried to think that people were essentially good, but I think it's very common for people to, when they can hide behind the internet, they're going to do all kinds of things. As a person my age, it's very scary. I'm of the older generation where a lot of this wasn't available, so it didn't happen.

I think the first advice I would say is we like to think that everybody out there is friendly and they think like us. The reality is there's a lot of strangers out there that are willing to do harm and are willing to look for selfish reasons to impact other people, whether it be through communications or whatever. So I think it's important that people understand how careful they need to be when they're putting information out there. You can't be too careful. But some of the things I see are unbelievable. There should be some accountability.

For some of these social media platforms where there were false profiles that my daughter created, we knew it. She reported it. They just seemed unwilling to cooperate with doing the right thing and trying to get those shut down. It was shocking to me that they let this perpetuate. They knew it was wrong. It was false. But for whatever reason, they...

wouldn't take action against it or against him. I think also they need to understand that there are tools that law enforcement has at their disposal. They'll find you. They can find you if they want to. So you're not safe. And I think that people need to understand that when they think that they're going to get away with something like this, maybe that'll be a deterrent to them if they understand that the possibility of getting identified, caught, arrested, and prosecuted is higher than they think.

I think when he chose Amy as one of his victims, he made a big mistake because she's not the kind of person to just run and hide behind the tree. She took action and she's still taking action to try to stop this from happening to other people and other victims. She's a bulldog and she will take this as far as she can to try to help enact legislation that will help enforce these laws and make them a little tougher and to make it a more understood crime.

I think a lot of people tend to, you know, keep their family secrets and not talk about things like this. This is a terrible thing that happened to her. I think it's not only therapeutic for her to take action and to try to make a difference going forward, but I think it's also the right thing to do. And I think it's in her heart that she's got to do something to help others who may not be in a position she's in with the ability to fight back like she is.

There's so many victims out there and there's so many people who are victims of this stuff that we never hear from. Thank you for doing what you do, because I think this is so important. People have to have an understanding of what can happen and what does happen every day. You're a voice for it and an advocate for the victims. Thank you for doing what you do.

Amy, was she a victim? Absolutely. And she is still being victimized because of the technology. Yet, she is an overcomer. That's where we're all at with this, is moving forward to help others, to be catalysts like you are for good and for change, and to help support others who are going through this to know that they are not alone and that good can come out of it. We just have to stay strong together, and that's what it takes is together.

We are very hopeful that other victims will recognize this situation and this abuser, this predator, and will have the strength to stand up. Hopefully other victims will find that within themselves, families too, so they can help those victims because it's difficult for the victim. It's the most difficult for them.

The other victims, they've had more of a silent life where they've been able to not be attacked by him because he's been in prison. Yet he will be getting out. And we need others to stand up and say, I'm going to be next in line to prove that, yes, this is what this guy's been doing to me too, and put him in prison again and again, because he is not remorseful for what he's done. This man has men and women victims, and he's got plenty of them. It could happen to anybody. What is he truly capable of?

That's the question that we all should be thinking about. Just in our sphere of influence, it's interesting to me who I didn't think would be supportive, who are extremely, they're like, oh my gosh, I get this. And then others that I thought they would be, it's like, they don't get it. But you don't judge any of that. You just say, let's move forward with those that get it.

and hopefully the others will come along. And I think that's how you have to look at society too. Information is powerful. This is why Tiffany, I really, really sincerely thank you and our whole family does for the opportunity to expose the realities of various forms of stalking, especially cyber stalking. Our stories need to get out there and that's why I respect that you have yours out there because people that don't have those support systems, they need to hear those and know that they can be healed. I just really want you to know that this has been very empowering actually.

Certain parts, of course, might have been draining, but thank you for that because empowerment, healthy empowerment leads to healthy reform and change. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. ♪

You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like...

I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah.

No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical.

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.

There were two missions I assigned myself, and that was to do this, to get my story out there, to try to identify other victims so they can come forward. At this point, the one other victim I've confirmed is a survivor of his, is not in a position and not comfortable coming forward. I will say my takeaway was there are direct parallels to what he latched onto in both of our situations. We both have a commonality that there was someone litigating

Latino that we had dated or had a sexual experience with and that after whatever the communication was ended, retaliated. I don't want to speak on her behalf, but I can tell you the threats against her were actually death threats.

The one survivor I talked to, she met him two years prior to me meeting him. I don't think this guy took a two-year break. I think this is something he's been doing nonstop for a very long time. Therefore, there are a lot of victims who are out there who don't know who this individual is and are still looking over your shoulder and wondering when he's going to pop back up.

The guy he portrayed to be on Plenty of Fish back in 2016, he circulated similar pictures that he had asked for of me. And I know that guy is also a victim. I would love to find out who that individual is and give him the opportunity to get the justice that he deserves. That's why I'm here. I want this story to be out because I know there's many others out there.

The torment has stopped because he's been in jail, but they don't know that. They don't know why it stopped or when it would start again. And there is no end to it right now for them. I want them to have that opportunity that I did to know who this person is, to know why it stopped and to keep it stopped and get the justice they deserve.

The first reaction is that they want to hide or they don't know what to do. So then they just delete everything. And that's the exact opposite of what should be done because they've done nothing wrong. They're victims and there should be no shame. If you really want to find the actual predator, you have to be vulnerable and you have to take action early on and document it.

He'll be released in June of 2025 if no one else comes forward. That is not that far away. And that terrifies me, the thought of him getting out. I mean, he's being held in a prison an hour and a half from where I live. And so my hope is that others hear this. If you've been hurt and stalked by the same individual, please come forward. No, you're not alone. There's a lot of us.

If people believe that they are also a victim of Morrison or any other cyber stalker, that FBI website that Amy mentioned, which we're linking in the episode notes, is the FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center. The abbreviation that is also used commonly for this branch of the FBI is IC3. And the website is actually I letter C and the number three dot gov.

For anyone who is experiencing digital violence, this is the place to go? Yeah, absolutely. The second mission I assigned myself was legislative change based on my experience and

The things that didn't make sense to me while I was going through the process, whether it be from the protection order side of things, the fact he was extradited to my backyard for stalking, the fact he was sentenced to the maximum sentence, which was less time than the amount of years he stalked me. There's just a lot.

I've connected with some advocacy groups here locally. They're reaching out to survivors to see if we're willing to share our stories and support them on some bills that they're pursuing. One of the bills is related to victim services funding.

Apparently, they're facing a possible 50% cut in federal Victims of Crime Act funding to Colorado. Those funds support a substantial number of victim advocate positions in both community-based organizations and system-based agencies like police and the prosecutor's office.

I don't want to see that happen. The experience and the benefit I got from working with an advocate, I'm shocked this is even something that we're going to have to fight. Although I was going to engage a therapist on my own as everything ramped up,

Knowing that the victim advocacy program would cover a portion of those costs, that was even more of a motivator to do it sooner rather than later. And I found a great therapist who was with me every step of the way through this process. I was reimbursed for therapy sessions that I had. Obviously, it's up to a certain portion, but so grateful. I want to say how important therapy is when you're going through something like this.

Another bill would require dating apps to have a safety policy that explains how they handle and respond to reports of sexual violence. It informs the users of that policy, and it shares the number of reports received and their responses to the Attorney General's office. It also creates a greater liability for dating apps if a user who's been previously reported harms someone else.

As you know, I have a huge bone to pick with dating apps, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, all of the social media companies. There are some other aspects to this too, where it requires a two-party consent for tracking devices, and it creates a civil cause of action for those who are tracked without their consent. And then it expands protections under Colorado's existing non-consensual pornography law to victims of AI and deep fakes.

The other one, and this was a big one, is protection orders. It's a key tool used by survivors to provide that safety. And the bill that they're proposing will reduce barriers for survivors in court and improve their safety in obtaining that. I told you about my civil protection order experience, which was one of the worst experiences of my life. Because I had a criminal case, I do have a permanent protection order against Morrison, which that was still an interesting process. So I also want to support that one.

I am here and want to support all efforts for change and impact, not only with stalking. I want to support all victims of all crimes. But this one's very personal to me because I've been through it

I just can't thank you enough. Speaking of that, it is Friday, January 12th. The first episode was released for wide release yesterday. Second episode, early release. Like I shared with you before we started today recording, the response that we have gotten from those that I've spoken with, my goodness, Amy, everybody is just like, team Amy loves you, loves your family, and wants to support you however they can. I just can't thank you enough.

I'd love to hear from you what the support and feedback has been like for you so far. You're making me choke up. This journey is a scary one to embark on. I initially reached out to you, Tiffany, a year ago about my story. It took me from September when Morrison was sentenced until January to have the strength to reach out to you to tell my story and submit it.

And so here we are a year later, and I always went into it with the mindset of this is something bigger than me. Yes, this is my story, but it has impacted so many people in my life. And I can tell you that it's even more freeing sharing my story with you and everyone out there. I'm so grateful to you and your team for the opportunity. And Jake, his perspective to kick it off was so insightful. And there's so many data points that people need to hear. I learned something from what he said.

I have to say the support has been beyond overwhelming. I was extremely emotional yesterday in the best way possible because of the messages and the calls and the overall support. I have amazing family and friends.

There's people in the professional community who I am on social media with, and there have been people who have come forward just since the trailer came out and the first episode who have come forward to tell me about their personal stories. Some stalking, some domestic violence and assault, males and females. The support I felt was just a deep breath and sigh of relief that this was the right decision in sharing my story, and I hope it empowers others to come forward

I'm so thankful you're sharing your experience. I literally wake up every day so happy and excited to do this work because what it can do for our resiliency and our collective power. I can't thank you enough. I can't wait to see what else comes of this and continue to work and advocate together. I just want to thank you for the change you've already made. I appreciate that. This is tough, tougher than I thought, but I'm appreciative for you, Tiffany, because you definitely make it easier.

Next time on Something Was Wrong. There were fireworks, there was chemistry, there was a kiss. I left at the end of the night and I couldn't wait to see him again. He had this military grade little backpack that he carried around with him everywhere. It was his medic kit. He would carry his gun in that because he's an ER trauma nurse. He is basically Superman.

Doug has planned another trip for me to come visit in Memphis. I was super excited. He had been kicked out of his other living situation. I think he told me that they just didn't have the room available anymore. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe, friends.

Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones, leave a positive review, or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at somethingwaswrongpodcast. Our theme song was composed by Glad Rags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. Thank you so much.

If you like Something Was Wrong, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time, the impact on victims, and what's left once the facade falls away.

We've covered stories like a Shark Tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills, an active lawsuit filed by Larry King, and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women instead, selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs.

To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.